Fwd: To AKK (From Shankara Bharadwaj & sreedhar Nambiar)

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:

 

Dear Sreedhar Nambiar ji,

 

" simple seasonal adjustment i dont think will coincide with actual

happeneing day "

 

I understand tropical year is different from sidereal year. But

talking about a festival, it is a coincidence of astronomical and

seasonal and therefore recalculation from " time to time " will be

needed. The question of how such recalculation should be made in order

that it

is not disruptive to the usage of calendar and tithis, and how in that

case should festivals be " determined " , is a more positive question in

my opinion.

 

While any festival is so we can take the example of the astronomical

event " Indra killing Vritra " or " Jyestha rising diametrically opposite

to setting Mrgasira with sunset " coinciding with the beginning of

Varsha ritu. However over time this might change and one has to choose

between astronomical and seasonal, or reconcile them from time to

time. Practical reasons for festivals demand that the choice better be

seasonal rather than astronomical - such beginning of Varsha ritu or

Sankranti are more farmer's festivals than an astronomer's festivals.

And it should be according to the former and not the latter. In my

opinion Sri AKK has totally missed out this point, that festivals are

for common man to celebrate based on the events of his life more than

they are meant for the astronomer.

 

As on date, if one looks into villages, the major festivals do

coincide with the major events in the farmer's life: when rains come,

when the crop comes to harvest, and so on. This is the bigger purpose

of festivals, which is actually being served.

 

This is not to say that one should not reconcile them again - but it

should not be an attack on the present scheme. And even if one does,

the primary purpose is terrestrial and NOT astronomical. Attacking

" Vedic Astrology " is a total tangent to this.

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar

hinducivilization

Monday, December 29, 2008 10:40:26 AM

[hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K N Rao

 

 

 

dear sankaraBharadwaj ji

 

just a add on to the points u mentioned here ( with ur permission )

Tropical Solar Year

 

This is the timetaken by the Sunto make a circuit of the Tropical

Zodiac. This is 365 days 5 hours 48 minutesand 45.2 seconds. This is

20 minutesand 24.6 seconds less. This is because the First Point of

Aries moves 50.3 seconds per year.

Solar Month is the time taken by the Sunto traverse one Sign. The

motion of the Sunis fastest at Perigee ( near the earth ) and slowest

at Apogee ( away from the Earth). ( This is the Earth-in-reflex, as it

isthe earth which is moving and not the Sun) . In other words, the

motion of the earth is fastest at Perihelion and slowest at Aphelion.

During the sidereal months of Sagittarius and Capricorn, the Sun is

nearest to the earth. It takes only 29 days to traverse 30 degrees of

a sign. During the months of Gemini and Cancer, the Sunis away from

the earth and it takes 31.477 days for the Sun to traverse 30 degrees

of a sign. The slowest motion of the Sun is 57 minutesand 11 seconds.

The fastest motion of the Sun is 61 minutes 10 seconds. That is why

some Sagittarius and Capricorn ( Vedic months ) have 29 days and

Cancer and Gemini ( Vedic months ) have 32 days, as per the Vedic

Calender.

 

The orbit of a planet is always elliptical, with the Sun as the focus

of the ellipse. ( Suryaha Jagata Chakshu ).

so when we calculate an actual event u can see after every 72 yrs one

day will behind and so on so after so many yrs (since 2 zodiac strted

again seperating ) it can giv also 22/23 days diffrnce in actual

scientific timing as sun passes one degree almost per day .

simple seasonal adjustment i dont think will coincide with actual

happeneing day

 

so how we can celibrate festivals like kaul ji said ??

 

this is the problem

 

again vedic astrologers means they r astrologers and they dont decide

festivals

 

also there is lot of diffrnce even among indian sub cultures abt

celebrating each festival

 

for exmple we celebrate deepavali in south kerala but in north kerala

not all giving any importance except now it strted to influence

because of medias .and all over south india it is celebrated on

chathurthi day where as all north india it is celebrating on new moon

day .

also pitru shradha in kerala we celibrate it on cancer sun vedic month

coinciding with new moon and also only one day where as in other part

of india it is virgo vedic month with new moon strting and 15 days

almost and call it as sharath or mahalaya paksha

 

kerala festivals blvd to b designd none other than adisankara ,do u

think unless u destroy all kerala they will accept kaul calender ?

 

i am just pointing out some basic diffrnce in each sub culture in

india as regrds to celebrating festivals and if u dig more on

festivals even on myth u can find each one culture has own blfs and

systems and dont agree with each other

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Diwali

 

Again lastly he only allows whatever is vedic and not even puranas as

all imported after greek attack on india and astrological reference in

it is not vedic according to his own words

 

Then where is vedic sanction for all this festivals ?? any evidence ??

 

more over he never answered how they the rig vedic rishies calculated

thithies and panchangas

if they shud hav follow NASA calender means they already destroyed our

dharma

here is proof another accuracy of vedic astrological systems

( Lieutenant -colonel john warren mentioned in collection of essys on

indian astronomy in 1825 met one calender maker who calculated for him

the time of an expected eclipse of moon by arrnaging shells on the

ground ,the man had no text book but worked by memory of various

astronomical formulae which he carried in his head ) means almost 200

yrs b4 even b4 NASA strted (

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA, pronounced

/ˈnæsÉ™/) is an agency of the United States government, responsible

for the nation's public space program. NASA was established on July

29, 1958, by the National Aeronautics and Space Act.[3] )

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ NASA

 

 

This is known as Kowdi kriya and still prevalent in Kerala and oldest

computing system and v v effient than abacus chinese .

 

again i like to mention till today no book is available in print abt

this system ,so according to sriman kaul ji this knowldge doesnot

exist at all as he calculate all texts according to his famous

christain dating syndrome and says this happened after alexander

apply indian visa

and even the possible era ( according to his timing ) was day of

knowldge originated than it may b some 1000s of yrs knowledge

reproduced and made availble to general public frm india's secret

ashram traditions as some ppl wished it to make it public

 

so all sindhanta has to b greek contribution nature ,and even forgets

the available seals of harappans in mesopetomia and babylonian areas

says indian influence there and even they settled there but sure

mlechas according to veda terminology as they r harappan saraswathi

ppl ( again that mail to kaul ji was met its destiny as kaulji was

sleeping those days )

 

even in greece the Minovans ( who has indian names and even vows in

the name indra varuna vedic gods ) were ruling there b4 alexanders

period and later their culture got earsed by a earth quack and later

200 yrs or so alexander born ,so where is time to devlp astrology than

borrow it frm some where .

 

And even budha statues unearthed in greece and even srikrishna

balabhadra seals found which was dating even much much predating to

alexander ( even i sent such mails to Kaul's grp but ignores and waits

till every one forget everything then asks what proof u giv me ) So

we all shud agree that for establishing dharma we shud tell himalayan

lies

 

Now even in American mayan inca civilisation they hav 12 rasies and

venus calenders ( remebr venus is considered as shukracharya and asura

guru ) even their cultural link was establlished by shri ganpathy

stapathy famous tamil vedic architect by noting motifs (elephant and

lotus ,all will agree that indian elephants u can find in indian sub

continnt and srilanka or may b thailand )and measurements ( all

according to indian stapathya veda ) by visiting there ( invited by US

govrmnt ) also all was again endorsed by dr Karan singh ex MP and of

Kashmir royal family ( i hope every body knows him )

 

Now can any body can say who is Maya the mlecha or Mayasura of surya

sidhantha ??

The great charlatan ,lier and cheater then what not according to kaulji

 

regrds sreedhar Nambiar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hinducivilization, ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:

>

> Pranam Sri A K Kaul ji,

>

> " I can

> assure you that there is absolutely no ambiguity about the fact that

> as far as predictive gimmicks are concerned, they are anti-Vedic! "

>

> Here you are clearly getting biased, and your focus appears more in

attacking Astrology than dealing with the problem of correct calendar,

don't you think so? I think this input is given by other learned

members too.

>

>

> " They are irrelevant because

> when all the Puranas and sidhantas tell us in one voice that Makar

> Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, the shortest day of the

> year, and Karkata Sankranti is a synonym of Dakshinayana, the longest

> day of the year and so on, why should you come to the support

> of " Vedic astrologers " when they advise us to celebrate Uttarayan-cum-

> Makar Sankranti on January 14/15 instead of December 21/22 etc. "

>

> Because of the simple fact I stated: Your Sankranti is calculated

based on the length of the year and centuries of error in the

calculation, even of one single minute, would introduce this difference.

>

> Here if you say that Astrologers introduced this error, you must

concede that we have been following them all the while. If not, then

one should understand that accuracy in mathematical calculations

improves over time and the inaccuracy in calculation in the Vedic and

VJ times should be adjusted.

>

> In either case, attacking Astrology is far from solving the problem.

>

> "

> It appears you have neither read any of the Puranas nor any of the

> sidhantas yourself, since there is absolutely no ambiguity about the

> fact that Vishuva i.e. Vernal Equinox is another name of Mesha

> Sankranti as per all the Puranas and Sidhantas! What has the error

> in calculation to do with the same? "

>

> It has, as I respond to the subsequent point:

>

> "

> The sidhantas also have said that their calculations must be

> subjected to beeja corrections in order to make the results tally

> exactly with the visible phenomena as was done by Munjala in around

> 11the century AD "

>

> Here I have a few points to mention: since this calculative

phenomenon, observational aspect to track the " visible phenomena " has

really come down. This is not an apologetic statement, I am only

stating what is obvious.

>

> The second point is that a considerable difference in the visible

phenomenon happens over long periods of time. And a corrective will be

needed. No one here pointed out that your calendar project is

incorrect - but it should be a corrective and not an attack on a subject.

>

> "

> I think I have given you enough of cogent and plausible reasons to

> see as to how even scholars like you are being taken for a ride

> by " Vedic astrologers " who cannot even pronounce the word " Rig-Veda "

> correctly! "

>

> Firstly, I do not consider myself a scholar. Secondly, as I

mentioned earlier, you are mixing many things here - as a result of

which something which can be synthetic is ending up as a conflict.

>

>

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@ .

> hinducivilization

> Friday, December 26, 2008 3:20:29 PM

> [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K N Rao

>

>

> Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

> Namaskar!

> Thanks for the reply.

> < To me there is a lot of ambiguity and there are too many factors

> that can invert our conclusions on these. Multiplicity of schools,

> depth of time and evolving practices, loss of literature are only a

> few to mention. And it is simplistic to take on astrology as the

> devil.>

>

> Since I have gone through all the Vedas and the VJ and YJ etc., I can

> assure you that there is absolutely no ambiguity about the fact that

> as far as predictive gimmicks are concerned, they are anti-Vedic! I

> can also equally assure you that there is no ambiguity about the

> absence of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis from the Vedas and the VJ and YJ

> etc. Same is the case with Mangal, Shani etc. planets.

>

> Regarding " inverting our conclusions " , I had studied the Vedas to

> prove to the whole world as to how " Vedic astrology " was really

> Vedic, as that is what I had been reading in the Astrological

> Magazine and panchangas and all the jyotisha books by most capabale

> astrologers. That is also what was dinned into my ears continuously

> by my parents and grandparents etc. As such, I was literally caught

> on the wrong foot when I found all that hogwash baseless!

>

> I was under the impression that people like Dr. Raman and K N Rao and

> other " world famous " astrologers would immediately agree with me, the

> moment I pointed out such fallacies to them, but unfortunately, they

> had made it a prestige point to stand by whatever wrong statements

> they were making! That is why I say, " aakhir paapi pet ka saval hai " .

>

> Regarding " loss of literature " , the unfortunate fact is that " Vedic

> astrologers " are claiming predictive gimmicks to be " Vedic astrology "

> on the basis of whatever Vedic literature was/is available! If they

> were really concerned about " lost literature " , they should certainly

> have waited for the same to be found first befor crying from

> housetops that astrology is a Vedanga!

>

> It is not " simplistic to take astrology as devil " but it is really

> the devil since " Vedic astrology " is anti-Vedic as it is compelling

> us to celebrate all our festivals and muhuras on wrong days!

>

> <Since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman or any

> other Pancanga? What was the timing of Varahamihira? What kind of

> error would their calculation induce over that length time, that we

> celebrate our festivals almost a month later? What is the kind of

> accuracy in calculation we find in Vedic days and from VJ times, and

> what kind of error would that induce over such length of time?>

>

> We are just avoiding the issue as to whether we are celebrating

> festivals on correct days or not by postulating all these

> hypothetical and irrelevant questions! They are irrelevant because

> when all the Puranas and sidhantas tell us in one voice that Makar

> Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, the shortest day of the

> year, and Karkata Sankranti is a synonym of Dakshinayana, the longest

> day of the year and so on, why should you come to the support

> of " Vedic astrologers " when they advise us to celebrate Uttarayan-cum-

> Makar Sankranti on January 14/15 instead of December 21/22 etc. Why

> should we try to look for scapegoats to assist them in their

> nefarious activities of derailing the entire Hindu community from its

> dharma of celebrating festivals on correct days?

> It appears you have neither read any of the Puranas nor any of the

> sidhantas yourself, since there is absolutely no ambiguity about the

> fact that Vishuva i.e. Vernal Equinox is another name of Mesha

> Sankranti as per all the Puranas and Sidhantas! What has the error

> in calculation to do with the same? On the other hand, these " Vedic

> astrologers " (frauds!) should have rectified such errors with the

> help of latest technologies and instead of believing Lahiri or Raman

> etc. verified the facts for themselves. In fact, your very

> question " since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman

> or any other Pancanga? " flies in the face of these frauds as they

> instead of Vedic astrologers, they are actually Lahiri or Raman or

> Chandra Hari or Fagan astrologers and want us to believe their

> nonsense because it is their " paapi pet ka savaal " .

>

> <5000 years since MBH, an error of a single minute in the length of

> year from then would put us about a fortnight behind by now. This is

> with plain arithmetic, without considering any other factors and

> changes to the calculations over time.>

>

> The sidhantas also have said that their calculations must be

> subjected to beeja corrections in order to make the results tally

> exactly with the visible phenomena as was done by Munjala in around

> 11the century AD. As such, the ball squarely lies in the court

> of " Vedic astrologers " since instead of making Makar Sankranti

> correspond with the shortest day of the year, they are removing it

> away by one day every seventy-two years---by making " Lahiri Beeja

> corrections " ---a word most obnoxious in letter as well as spirit!

> Fie on these " Vedic astrologers " .

>

> I think I have given you enough of cogent and plausible reasons to

> see as to how even scholars like you are being taken for a ride

> by " Vedic astrologers " who cannot even pronounce the word " Rig-Veda "

> correctly!

> With regards,

> A K Kaul

>

> hinducivilization, ShankaraBharadwaj

> Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Pranam Sri A K Kaul ji,

> >

> > "

> > Your replies are actually more confusing than enlighening! "

> >

> > I am too small to enlighten someone as learned as you. I am only

> pointing things that seem obvious to me.

> >

> > "

> > Sometimes you say that astrology is " present " in the Vedas though

> we

> > cannot see the same. Then you say that " nirayana " Rashis may not

> be

> > in the Vedas but they are in later astrologcial works! When asked

> to

> > name even a single such indigenous pre-Surya Sidhanta astrolgical

> > wrok which talks of Mesha etc. rashis, you give an entirely

> different

> > twist to the entire discussion, so that we lose all the track of

> the

> > subject of discussion! "

> >

> > To me there is a lot of ambiguity and there are too many factors

> that can invert our conclusions on these. Multiplicity of schools,

> depth of time and evolving practices, loss of literature are only a

> few to mention. And it is simplistic to take on astrology as the

> devil.

> >

> > "

> > Now you say that because the Vedanga Jyotisha has given the wrong

> > duration of a year that is why we are celebrating our festivals and

> > muhurtas on worng days, in spite of the fact that nobody is going

> by

> > the VJ these days, least of all NASA/JPL, whose data is being used

> by

> > Rashtirya (read Lahiri) Panchanga after ayanamsha tonsure! "

> >

> > I have not said it is wrong. The reason I put the question is to

> hint at the factor of depth of time.

> >

> >

> > In the first place, VJ is not a text of Vedic times. The " Vedic

> calculation of year " perhaps saw a modification at VJ times, and that

> in turn has seen changes later on.

> >

> > Since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman or any

> other Pancanga? What was the timing of Varahamihira? What kind of

> error would their calculation induce over that length time, that we

> celebrate our festivals almost a month later? What is the kind of

> accuracy in calculation we find in Vedic days and from VJ times, and

> what kind of error would that induce over such length of time? And if

> Astrologers' calculation is solely responsible for " error " , then it

> should also be conceded that their tradition is much older than you

> suggest.

> >

> > 5000 years since MBH, an error of a single minute in the length of

> year from then would put us about a fortnight behind by now. This is

> with plain arithmetic, without considering any other factors and

> changes to the calculations over time.

> >

> > So the whole problem of calculation of festivals on " right " days is

> very incomplete without all those things taken into picture. I think

> attacking these " recent " versions will only take you in a loop.

> >

> > "

> > Astrologers cannot answer my questions because they are not

> > scientists! And sceintists cannot answer them because they are not

> > astrologers! What are you? A scientist or an astrologer or

> neither

> > or both? "

> >

> > I stand by the first. The second, I did not say but you are not

> wrong. Because astrology involves something more than these

> calculations.

> >

> > As for me, I am neither by practice, but have learned a littttttle

> of both. I have seen a whole range of people who are " astrologers " ,

> who are not, who do predictions and what not. You might be surprised

> to know that there are a lot of people who look at some chart (they

> do not even know the basics of how to draw a chart) and make right

> predictions. There are people who make such charts. There are also

> people who study Panca Siddhantika and make calculations, and do

> predictions. And there are people who studied the " science " and

> cannot predict.

> >

> > "

> > <So your questions are going to virtually none! >

> >

> > Still you are answering them! "

> >

> > Well I wish I know enough to answer. The person who has the correct

> answer can seldom be found. Most opinions and calculations have

> limitations. But my intention in saying that is, to bring a positive

> change the system is really too big and complex, with no single

> deciding authority where sufficient information and power is there.

> Anything has to start as a tradition, and that freedom is fortunately

> there in our society.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@ ..>

> > hinducivilization

> > Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:59:50 PM

> > [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K

> N Rao

> >

> >

> > Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

> > Namaskar!

> > Your replies are actually more confusing than enlighening!

> > Sometimes you say that astrology is " present " in the Vedas though

> we

> > cannot see the same. Then you say that " nirayana " Rashis may not

> be

> > in the Vedas but they are in later astrologcial works! When asked

> to

> > name even a single such indigenous pre-Surya Sidhanta astrolgical

> > wrok which talks of Mesha etc. rashis, you give an entirely

> different

> > twist to the entire discussion, so that we lose all the track of

> the

> > subject of discussion!

> >

> > Now you say that because the Vedanga Jyotisha has given the wrong

> > duration of a year that is why we are celebrating our festivals and

> > muhurtas on worng days, in spite of the fact that nobody is going

> by

> > the VJ these days, least of all NASA/JPL, whose data is being used

> by

> > Rashtirya (read Lahiri) Panchanga after ayanamsha tonsure!

> >

> > Then you say, " I do not think any astrologer will have answers to

> > your questions, because he is not a scientist - he does not study

> why

> > things work and what is the basis for the entire subject. He is the

> > consumer of the subject. " This is all talking in circles!

> > Astrologers cannot answer my questions because they are not

> > scientists! And sceintists cannot answer them because they are not

> > astrologers! What are you? A scientist or an astrologer or

> neither

> > or both?

> >

> > Your following statement takes the cake

> >

> > <So your questions are going to virtually none! >

> >

> > Still you are answering them!

> > Regards,

> > A K Kaul

> >

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---