Mleccha, Yavana, Bharata varsh a, Jambu Dwipa etc

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji,

That was informative. Thanks for the info.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh-ji,

>

> I also appreciate the thoughts put by Venkat Krishnan-ji.

>

> For obvious reasons, the Mleccha = Non-veg eater irked me a little.

> Being a Bengali and from Shakti worshipper family background, I

> get sometimes amazed at such ideas.

>

> There have been few attempts to correlate different place names with

> names available in Veda / MBH / Ramayana. The basic direction is

> very good. However, any such search should consider all data

avaialable,

> not a partial set of data which fits the bill.

>

> Kaikeya / Kekaya has been correlated with many places. Some try to

> connect it with Caucasus region of Eurasia. Their argument is Kekaya

> become Caucasus in Greek pronunciation. The Santhal /Munda group

> has a claim that Kekaya kingdom was theirs.. which shrank with the

> advent of " Dikhu " or foreigners.

>

> Kazaksthan has also been correlated with place of Keechak (with whom

> Bhima of MBH has a good fight). There is some description of place of

> Keechak . It is supposed to had abundant bamboo grooves (Keechak

> bamboo). It was somewhere north of Uttar Kuru / Param Madra. But

> some people connect with some place in China (due to Bamboo

connection).

>

> Regarding Yavana, the word is avaialable in Sanskrit dictionaries with

> many meanings. One supposed meaning is one who uses fast horses.

> The Greek websites also mention the same. That restricts the origin of

> Yavana

> to some regions. Yavana obviously did migrate ... so did Kamboja,

> probably along the Tibetan Plateu and reached many places. Only

> other name which can be related to Yavana in S E Asia (phonetically)

is

> YAVA Dwipa of Present day Java.

>

> regards

>

> chakraborty

>

>

>

>

>

> Sreenadh [sreesog]

> Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:28 PM

>

> Re: Mleccha, Yavana, Bharata

varsha,

> Jambu Dwipa etc

>

>

>

>

> Dear Chakraborty ji,

> I agree to all the points put forward by you. But I would like to

point

> out that some special consideration should be given to the arguments

of

> Venkata Krishnan ji due to the following points -

> * They spring from an idealistic perspective and high regard for Vedic

> knowledge. (though not near to reality)

> * His views are very picturesque and imaginative.

> * The corelation of " Kekaya with Kazakstan " and " Varsha with Nation "

> attract my attention (I like it) even at the face of childish

arguments like

> - //The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in the

center of

> this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.//

> * 7 Dwipas, 9 Varshas of Jambudwipa. This could be much informative

when

> amended with the questions - What are the names of 7 Diwpas (and which

> continent should be corelated to which Dwipa)? What are the names of 9

> Varshas that are part of Jambu Dwipa? What are the name of the Varshas

that

> are associated with all the other 6 Dwipas? If 'Varta' is part of

Varsha,

> what are the Vartas other than Brahma varta that are part of Bharata

Varsha?

>

> * //The word Jambu means Fig tree // Of course the names of all the 7

> Dwipas can be correlated to 7 trees. There is one Dwipa with the name

> meaning 'Teek Tree'. Teek tree is found only in South India. I would

love to

> see how Ventaka Krishnan ji would correlate the 7 trees with the 7

> continents.

> I agree to the following points raised by Venkata Krishnan ji -

> * The words Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms. [Agree]

> * Bharatavarshavarsha does not refer to Indian subcontinent alone it

> includes ancient Persia which is modern Iran, Central Asia and parts

of

> Russia too. [Agree, with the amendment suggested by Chakrabortyji as -

> " debatable point. Surely it was bigger. " ]

> * Kamboja is the Vedic name for Combodia [Agree, with the amendment as

> suggested by Chakraborty ji as - " Kamboja was most probably colonized

by

> Kambojas.. not necessarily their native place. " ]

> I disagree to the following points -

> * Right from Vedas the word Mlechaha refers to who eats non-vegetarian

> .The word Mlechcha literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON [Disagree]

> * The word Yavana always means a Foreigner [Disagree]

> * The Vedic Language from which all the other languages of the world

> evolved [Disagree]

> I fully agree to the following points put forward by Chakraborty ji -

> //b) Mleccha means any non-vegetarians - disagree.

>

> Many Kshatriya kings went for deer hunting (Mrigaya / Mrugaya).

>

> Like Dasharatha went and killed the only osn of Andhaka Muni.

>

> So did Dushyant (when he met Shakuntala in Kanva Muni's Ashram).

>

>

>

> Now, either they did deer hunting only for fun (how cruel !) or they

>

> did eat those. Even Agastya asked for meat (while killing the

>

> Ilval / Vatapi rakshas). If meat eating was so disgusting in those

>

> days ... the noble ones would not dare to try that.

>

> e) Regarding Dwipa ... by etymology, Dwipa means Dwi (two) Aapa

(water)

>

> The meaning might have changed over the years. And the description

>

> of 7 dwipa probably mentions 7 concentric circles. Difficult to

connect

>

>

> these descriptions with continents

>

> f) Sanskrit being the mother of all languages .. very difficult to

> believe.

>

> The Chinese / Basque / Austric languages are quite different at root

> level.//

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Chakraborty, PL "

> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:

> >

>

>

> Dear Venkat Krishnan-ji,

>

> I would like to disgree on few points

>

> a) Yavana and Mleccha are different - fully agreed.

> b) Mleccha means any non-vegetarians - disgree.

> Many Kshatriya kings went for deer hunting (Mrigaya / Mrugaya).

> Like Dasharatha went and killed the only osn of Andhaka Muni.

> So did Dushyant (when he met Shakuntala in Kanva Muni's Ashram).

>

> Now, either they did deer hunting only for fun (how cruel !) or they

> did eat those. Even Agastya asked for meat (while killing the

> Ilval / Vatapi rakshas). If meat eating was so disgusting in those

> days ... the noble ones would not dare to try that.

> c) Area of Bharatavarsha ... debatable point. Surely it was bigger.

> d) Kamboja was most probably colonized by Kambojas.. not necessarily

> their native place. The Bala Kanda descriptions about birth of Kamboja

> indicates close proximity of Shaka / Pallava / Kamboja / Mleccha.

> e) Regarding Dwipa ... by etymology, Dwipa means Dwi (two) Aapa

(water)

> The meaning might have changed over the years. And the description

> of 7 dwipa probably mentions 7 concentric cirles. Difficult to connect

> these descriptions with continents

> f) Sanskrit being the mother of all languages .. very difficult to

> believe.

> The Chinese / Basque / Austric languages are quite different at root

> level.

>

>

> Anyway, let us agree to disagree on some points.

>

>

> regards

>

> chakraborty

> >

> > venkata krishnan [bcvk71@]

> > Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:43 PM

> > ; 'Lila';

> > BCVENKATAKRISHNANNewsListgroup; Pavitra Ramanujam; Phillip;

Thirunarayanan

> > K.Raghavan

> > Re: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear All,

> > The wors Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right from

> > Vedas the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word

Mlechcha

> > literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin who

eats

> > nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word

Yavana

> always

> > means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to

Bharatavarsha.Indian

> > subcontinant is only a part of Bharatavarsha.Bharatavarshavarsha

does not

> > refer to Indian subcontinant alone it includes ancient Persia which

is

> > modern Iran, Central Asia and parts of Russua too.Kamboja is the

Vedic

> name

> > for Combodia and Kekaya is modern Kazakstan which are also parts of

> > Bharatavarsha.According to Vedas and allied literature there are 7

Dwipas

> on

> > Earth meanin g 7 continants.The most important ofthese is

Jambooddwipa

> which

> > is Eurasia with Antartica.And there are 9 Varshas which are parts of

> > Jambuddwipa.The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in

the

> > centre of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.The most important

of

> the

> > Varshas, meaning Nations, in Jambooddwipa is Bharatavarsha which

includes

> > modern Antartica.An isthumas connects Gangothri in Himalayas and

Antartica

> > even today via Bay of Bengal and Indian ocean.The Vedic Language

from

> which

> > all the other languages of the world evolved has no name it was

called

> > AARYA meaning that which is noble.ater Maharshi Panini abridged the

AARYA

> > and wrote the first grammar Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the the

abridged

> > language as Samskrtam SAMYAKAKRITAM SAMSKRTAM meaning WELL DONE.The

other

> > languages which are dialects of AARYAA were colloqual and not

perfect and

> > hence called Mlechchabashas meaning Mean or Low Languages.

> > B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.

> > website: www.vedascience. <http://www.vedascience.com> com

> >

> >

> >

> > Sreenadh sreesog@

> > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

> >

> > Thursday, October 30, 2008, 2:42 PM

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Chakraborty ji,

> > Thanks for the informative write-up.

> > //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to

> > > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words

> > > have changed over the times ?//

> > I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any

> > statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must

be

> > different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a

> limited

> > meaning.

> > //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession /

occupation

> > > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?//

> > I am yet to find any such reference.

> > //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and

Mleccha

> > > together (as in the quote provided by you).//

> > Except the qute " Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam "

> > (provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet

to

> find

> > any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana.

> > //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too

think

> > the same.

> >

> > //> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to

> > > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea.

> > > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from

> > > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. //

> > This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha

to

> > refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic

trend

> came

> > down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that the word

> Mleccha

> > refer to the original Indigenous people of India. Also note that

> > Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to river/sea,

and

> also

> > that the original major god of Avastan people (Atharva Vedic?) is

Varuna,

> > the sea god. (Any connection?) . May be this word refers to Meluhans

> > (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous scholars ? who knows.

> > In Kerala too the word 'Yavana " was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to

refer to

> > Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was -

> > 1) once used to refer to Muslims

> > 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran)

> > 3) once used to refer to Greek

> > 4) once used to refer to Ionians

> > 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!)

> > May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them it

was

> > used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general

meaning

> > " Foreigners " .

> > While considering statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which

meaning

> > we should consider - we may wonder.

> > Love and regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > --In ancient_indian_ astrology

> > < , " Chakraborty, PL "

> > <CHAKRABORTYP2@ ...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sreenadh-ji,

> > >

> > > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info

before.

> > > My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama'

> > > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand

> > > the roots of words and our history.

> > >

> > > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood

> language,

> > > the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have

> > misunderstood

> > > your good intentions.

> > >

> > > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the

logical

> > > path may be based on as below :

> > >

> > > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to

> > > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words

> > > have changed over the times ?

> > >

> > > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation

> > > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?

> > >

> > > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha

> > > together (as in the quote provided by you).

> > >

> > > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are

different.

> > > Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to

> > > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea.

> > > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from

> > > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me.

> > >

> > > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly

depressed

> > > few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane)

indicates

> > > different community.

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _

> > >

> > > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya- ji,

> > >

> > > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been

> > > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...

> > > Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was

> > > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,

> > > Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case

> > > of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these

> > > kings too.

> > >

> > > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in

> > > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described

> > > variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also

> > > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war

> > > between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.

> > >

> > > I will search this out and send the link

> > >

> > >

> > > regards

> > >

> > > chakraborty

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ...]

> > > Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Chakraborty ji,

> > > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct

> > > meaning/translation of the words " Mleccha hi yavanasteshu. .. " .

The

> > popular

> > > meaning attributed to these words are " Even though the Greeks are

> degraded

> > > outcasts ... " (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this

meaning is

> > > wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to

clear

> one

> > > of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding.

> > > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide

your

> choice

> > > and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and

> supporting

> > > arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a

> > valuable

> > > conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement.

Ofcourse we

> > > all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or

another to

> > > answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc?

> > > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly

question, no

> > > ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a

thought out,

> > > that came to my mind.

> > > Love and regards,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Chakraborty,

PL "

> > > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sreenadh-ji,

> > > >

> > > > Please take it easy.

> > > >

> > > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to

> > > > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some

> > > > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a

> > > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana

> > > > and Mleccha may or may not be same.

> > > >

> > > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant

here.

> > > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these

things

> > > > with commoners like us.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.

> > > >

> > > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.

> > > >

> > > > regards

> > > >

> > > > Chakraborty P L

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ]

> > > > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM

> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all,

> > > > Gargahora states - " Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu. .... " . How will you

> > > > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -

> > > > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)

> > > > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

> > > >

> > > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana =

> Forgiener)

> > > > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

> > > >

> > > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)

> > > > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana)

> > > >

> > > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

> > > > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)

> > > >

> > > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts

(Mleccha)

> > > > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners

(Yavana)

> > > > Love and regards,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology,

" Chakraborty, PL "

> > > > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,

> > > > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill

Pandava

> > > > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvat a).

Vidura

> came

> > to

> > > > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language.

The

> guards

> > > > > who were present could not understand the language.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were

attested

> in

> > > > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi

> > Melechite

> > > > >

> > > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of

Yavana

> > with

> > > > > people who uses fast horses.

> > > > >

> > > > > regards

> > > > >

> > > > > chakraborty

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > sunil nair [astro_ tellerkerala@ ]

> > > > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM

> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and

Meena

> Raja

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > hare rama krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > dear sreenadh ji

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even

ppl frm

> > any

> > > > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic

brhmin

> > > tradition

> > > > of

> > > > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So

> branded

> > as

> > > > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning

earlier

> > .We

> > > > shud

> > > > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights

..so

> > imagine

> > > > long

> > > > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted

other

> as

> > > > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am

using

> > in

> > > > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or

> community

> > > > > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old

russia

> .Many

> > > of

> > > > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also

has

> > > > influence

> > > > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than

> > astrology

> > > > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected

too

> and

> > > > they

> > > > > follows hindu gods .

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > regrds sunil nair

> > > > >

> > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh "

> > sreesog@

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear All,

> > > > > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name

that

> > means

> > > -

> > > > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR

> > > > > > * Venus the flag pole OR

> > > > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Some questions:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva

> > > > > > tradition?

> > > > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning

was just

> > > > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing

to

> > happen

> > > by

> > > > > > chance?

> > > > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara;

refer to

> > > > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna

Upanishad;

> > > mention

> > > > > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?

> > > > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?

> > > > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in

nature?

> > > > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged

to BC

> > > > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara)

then -

> who

> > > are

> > > > > > these Yavanas?

> > > > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the

knowledge

> they

> > > > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the

> knowledge

> > > > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?

> > > > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of

â®®.*RoeAgama

> > > > > > Sastraâ®®.*R? , they what they mean by the word

> ⮮.*R~Agama⮦lt;br>> ..*R??

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Love and regards,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology,

" Sreenadh "

> > > > > > sreesog@ wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

> > > > > >

> > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of

love,

> > > > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji

Dwaja and

> > > Meena

> > > > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole)

> rather

> > > than

> > > > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are

notable.

> > > > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star.

> Sphujit

> > > > > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole.

Thus

> > Sphuji

> > > > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This

is

> none

> > > but

> > > > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex

and

> > > beauty.

> > > > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in

astrology.

> In

> > > > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty

and

> > love.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama

Varyar in

> > his

> > > > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is

> > > interesting

> > > > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous

other

> > > meanings

> > > > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma

Ritu,

> > > > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja'

mean

> > `Venus

> > > > > > the flag pole'.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the

> zodiac

> > is

> > > > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean

star.

> The

> > > > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is

none but

> > the

> > > > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom

Venus is

> the

> > > > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome

god.

> > This

> > > > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are

just

> > some

> > > > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star

King,

> Venus

> > > the

> > > > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and

`Raj'

> > mean

> > > > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji

Dwaja'

> > and

> > > > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus,

the

> > morning

> > > > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of

lust,

> love,

> > > > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in

> > > Sphujidwaja

> > > > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them

consider

> > the

> > > > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of

the

> > > > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and

systems

> used

> > by

> > > > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still

totally

> > > Indian

> > > > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still

refer to

> > and

> > > > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are

> outside

> > > the

> > > > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena

Raja

> refer

> > to

> > > > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods

> > > > > > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja

starts

> > the

> > > > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to

> represent

> > a

> > > > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a

> tradition

> > > that

> > > > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Note the following points ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e.

Sukra

> > > > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them

never

> refer

> > > > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to

> Indian

> > > > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some

where

> > > > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that

Sphuji

> > > Dwaja

> > > > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not

known

> with

> > > > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to

the

> > > period

> > > > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > - 0 -

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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