Mleccha, Yavana, Bharata varsha, Jambu Dwipa etc

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji, I agree to all the points put forward by you. But I would like to point out that some special consideration should be given to the arguments of Venkata Krishnan ji due to the following points - * They spring from an idealistic perspective and high regard for Vedic knowledge. (though not near to reality) * His views are very picturesque and imaginative. * The corelation of "Kekaya with Kazakstan" and "Varsha with Nation" attract my attention (I like it) even at the face of childish arguments like - //The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in the center of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.// * 7 Dwipas, 9 Varshas of Jambudwipa. This could be much informative when amended with the questions - What are the names of 7 Diwpas (and which continent should be corelated to which Dwipa)? What are the names of 9 Varshas that are part of Jambu Dwipa? What are the name of the Varshas that are associated with all the other 6 Dwipas? If 'Varta' is part of Varsha, what are the Vartas other than Brahma varta that are part of Bharata Varsha? * //The word Jambu means Fig tree // Of course the names of all the 7 Dwipas can be correlated to 7 trees. There is one Dwipa with the name meaning 'Teek Tree'. Teek tree is found only in South India. I would love to see how Ventaka Krishnan ji would correlate the 7 trees with the 7 continents. I agree to the following points raised by Venkata Krishnan ji - * The words Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms. [Agree] * Bharatavarshavarsha does not refer to Indian subcontinent alone it includes ancient Persia which is modern Iran, Central Asia and parts of Russia too. [Agree, with the amendment suggested by Chakrabortyji as - "debatable point. Surely it was bigger."] * Kamboja is the Vedic name for Combodia [Agree, with the amendment as suggested by Chakraborty ji as - "Kamboja was most probably colonized by Kambojas.. not necessarily their native place. "] I disagree to the following points - * Right from Vedas the word Mlechaha refers to who eats non-vegetarian .The word Mlechcha literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON [Disagree] * The word Yavana always means a Foreigner [Disagree] * The Vedic Language from which all the other languages of the world evolved [Disagree] I fully agree to the following points put forward by Chakraborty ji -//b) Mleccha means any non-vegetarians - disagree.

Many Kshatriya kings went for deer hunting (Mrigaya / Mrugaya).

Like Dasharatha went and killed the only osn of Andhaka Muni.

So did Dushyant (when he met Shakuntala in Kanva Muni's Ashram).

Now, either they did deer hunting only for fun (how cruel !) or they

did eat those. Even Agastya asked for meat (while killing the

Ilval / Vatapi rakshas). If meat eating was so disgusting in those

days ... the noble ones would not dare to try that.

e) Regarding Dwipa ... by etymology, Dwipa means Dwi (two) Aapa (water)

The meaning might have changed over the years. And the description

of 7 dwipa probably mentions 7 concentric circles. Difficult to connect

these descriptions with continents

f) Sanskrit being the mother of all languages .. very difficult to believe.

The Chinese / Basque / Austric languages are quite different at root level.//Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>

Dear Venkat Krishnan-ji,

 

I would like to disgree on few points

 

a) Yavana and Mleccha are different - fully agreed.

b) Mleccha means any non-vegetarians - disgree.

Many Kshatriya kings went for deer hunting (Mrigaya / Mrugaya).

Like Dasharatha went and killed the only osn of Andhaka Muni.

So did Dushyant (when he met Shakuntala in Kanva Muni's Ashram).

Now, either they did deer hunting only for fun (how cruel !) or they

did eat those. Even Agastya asked for meat (while killing the

Ilval / Vatapi rakshas). If meat eating was so disgusting in those

days ... the noble ones would not dare to try that.

c) Area of Bharatavarsha ... debatable point. Surely it was bigger.

d) Kamboja was most probably colonized by Kambojas.. not necessarily

their native place. The Bala Kanda descriptions about birth of Kamboja

indicates close proximity of Shaka / Pallava / Kamboja / Mleccha.

e) Regarding Dwipa ... by etymology, Dwipa means Dwi (two) Aapa (water)

The meaning might have changed over the years. And the description

of 7 dwipa probably mentions 7 concentric cirles. Difficult to connect

these descriptions with continents

f) Sanskrit being the mother of all languages .. very difficult to believe.

The Chinese / Basque / Austric languages are quite different at root level.

 

Anyway, let us agree to disagree on some points.

 

 

regards

 

chakraborty > > venkata krishnan [bcvk71]> Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:43 PM> ; 'Lila';> BCVENKATAKRISHNANNewsListgroup; Pavitra Ramanujam; Phillip; Thirunarayanan> K.Raghavan> Re: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > Dear All,> The wors Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right from> Vedas the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word Mlechcha> literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin who eats> nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word Yavana always> means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to Bharatavarsha.Indian> subcontinant is only a part of Bharatavarsha.Bharatavarshavarsha does not> refer to Indian subcontinant alone it includes ancient Persia which is> modern Iran, Central Asia and parts of Russua too.Kamboja is the Vedic name> for Combodia and Kekaya is modern Kazakstan which are also parts of> Bharatavarsha.According to Vedas and allied literature there are 7 Dwipas on> Earth meanin g 7 continants.The most important ofthese is Jambooddwipa which> is Eurasia with Antartica.And there are 9 Varshas which are parts of> Jambuddwipa.The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in the> centre of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.The most important of the> Varshas, meaning Nations, in Jambooddwipa is Bharatavarsha which includes> modern Antartica.An isthumas connects Gangothri in Himalayas and Antartica> even today via Bay of Bengal and Indian ocean.The Vedic Language from which> all the other languages of the world evolved has no name it was called> AARYA meaning that which is noble.ater Maharshi Panini abridged the AARYA> and wrote the first grammar Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the the abridged> language as Samskrtam SAMYAKAKRITAM SAMSKRTAM meaning WELL DONE.The other> languages which are dialects of AARYAA were colloqual and not perfect and> hence called Mlechchabashas meaning Mean or Low Languages. > B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.> website: www.vedascience. <http://www.vedascience.com> com> > > > Sreenadh sreesog Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > Thursday, October 30, 2008, 2:42 PM> > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > Thanks for the informative write-up. > //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> > have changed over the times ?//> I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any> statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must be> different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a limited> meaning. > //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?//> I am yet to find any such reference. > //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> > together (as in the quote provided by you).//> Except the qute "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam"> (provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet to find> any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana. > //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too think> the same.> > //> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. //> This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha to> refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic trend came> down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that the word Mleccha> refer to the original Indigenous people of India. Also note that> Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to river/sea, and also> that the original major god of Avastan people (Atharva Vedic?) is Varuna,> the sea god. (Any connection?) . May be this word refers to Meluhans> (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous scholars ? who knows. > In Kerala too the word 'Yavana" was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to refer to> Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was -> 1) once used to refer to Muslims> 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran)> 3) once used to refer to Greek> 4) once used to refer to Ionians > 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!) > May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them it was> used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general meaning> "Foreigners" . > While considering statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which meaning> we should consider - we may wonder.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > --In ancient_indian_ astrology> < , "Chakraborty, PL"> <CHAKRABORTYP2@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.> > My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama' > > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand> > the roots of words and our history.> > > > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood language,> > the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have> misunderstood> > your good intentions.> > > > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the logical> > path may be based on as below :> > > > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> > have changed over the times ?> > > > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?> > > > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> > together (as in the quote provided by you).> > > > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.> > Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. > > > > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed> > few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane) indicates> > different community.> > > > ____________ _________ _> > > > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya- ji,> > > > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been > > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...> > Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was > > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,> > Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case> > of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these> > kings too.> > > > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in > > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described> > variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also > > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war> > between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.> > > > I will search this out and send the link> > > > > > regards> > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ...]> > Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct> > meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu. ..". The> popular> > meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded> > outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is> > wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one> > of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. > > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your choice> > and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting> > arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a> valuable> > conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we> > all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to> > answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? > > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no> > ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out,> > that came to my mind. > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > Please take it easy.> > > > > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > > > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> > > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> > > and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > > > > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> > > with commoners like us. > > > > > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > > > > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > > > > > regards> > > > > > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ]> > > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > > > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu. ....". How will you> > > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> > > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> > > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > > > > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > > > > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> > > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > > > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvat a). Vidura came> to> > > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > > > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > > > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi> Melechite> > > > > > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana> with > > > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > > > > > regards> > > > > > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > > > > sunil nair [astro_ tellerkerala@ ]> > > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > > > > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm> any> > > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> > tradition> > > of> > > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded> as> > > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier> .We> > > shud> > > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so> imagine> > > long> > > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using> in> > > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > > > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> > of> > > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> > > influence> > > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than> astrology> > > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> > > they> > > > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> sreesog@> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that> means> > -> > > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > > > tradition?> > > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to> happen> > by> > > > > chance?> > > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> > > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> > mention> > > > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> > are> > > > > these Yavanas?> > > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of ⮮.*RoeAgama> > > > > Sastra⮮.*R? , they what they mean by the word ⮮.*R~Agama⮦lt;br>> ..*R??> > > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> > Meena> > > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> > than> > > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus> Sphuji> > > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> > but> > > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> > beauty.> > > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and> love.> > > > > > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in> his> > > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> > interesting> > > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> > meanings> > > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean> `Venus> > > > > the flag pole'.> > > > > > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac> is> > > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but> the> > > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god.> This> > > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just> some> > > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> > the> > > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj'> mean> > > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja'> and> > > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the> morning> > > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> > Sphujidwaja> > > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider> the> > > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used> by> > > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> > Indian> > > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to> and> > > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> > the> > > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer> to> > > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > > > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts> the> > > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent> a> > > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> > that> > > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji> > Dwaja> > > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> > period> > > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > > > > > - 0 -> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> > India.> > > The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments> > to> > > this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and> > may> > > contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. 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