Ptoelmy and Western History of the Concept of Longitude and Latitude etc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sreenadh and all...

 

Again I am not a historian though I have studied a little history of

the Western world.

 

From what little I have read, Ptolemy's text on Geography did dominate

the Western (Christian and Islamic) world for 1500 or so years after

it was written. However, it is well known that a great deal of

knowledge in the Western world was lost or went underground

during the century after Ptolemy lived, due to the many great wars,

the rise and fall of various civilizations, and the clash of opposing

cultures in the dark times of Kali Yuga.

 

Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the

terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of

coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For

instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth

which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who

thought he could sail West to reach Asia.

 

Ptolemy worked under certain constraints and was limited in his

ability to collect accurate data. Even so, he is called the Father of

Geography in the Western world. He knew the Earth was a sphere and it

is said he " invented " longitude and latitude in the Western world.

Nobody knows for sure where Ptolemy found the data for his work, but

it is assumed he worked out of the great Library of Alexandria. It is

true that Alexandria, where he lived, was an important trading hub.

One is led to believe that some cross-pollination of knowledge took

place here with the Eastern world.

 

Historical commentators say that Ptolemy lived during a time in

history when it may not have been safe to expose all his truth so he

may have covered up some knowledge to fit what was expected of him.

 

Students of Jyotisha in America are taught that the astrology of India

is a more complete system than what has been reconstructed in more

modern times in Western astrology. The ancient astrology of Babylon

and Egypt were lost or made into secondary pursuits by medieval

Christian and Muslim cultures. India, however, has continued to

maintain its religion and culture, including astrology, from ancient

times. Hence, the astrology of India is considered by many to be an

older and more complete system. It is also taught by many scholars

that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe.

 

But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor the

point? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive

thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises

from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history

and geography. Dr. David Frawley wrote in his _Astrology of the Seers_

that " Astrology is a good point of dialogue and interchange between

East and West, the ancient and the modern. It links together the

greatest diversity of cultures in the most common perceptions and

aspirations of humanity. " I feel especially in these chaotic times on

our fragile planet that we will serve our Divine Mother more when we

look for confluence and union rather than perpetuating a mentality of

" us versus them/East versus West. " Thank you for the discussion.

 

Om shanti,

Juliana

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear All,

> Juliana ji provided me with the following info about Ptolemy's

> contribution to the concept of Latitude and Longitude.

> =============

> Hi Sreenadh....I am not a historian but these links may offer some

> illumination on the topic of Ptolemy and his work with Geography:

>

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptolem\

> y_geo.html

>

<http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\

> my_geo.html>

>

>

<http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\

> my_geo.html> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> (Ptolemy)

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia_> Best,

> Juliana

> =============

> Both the links are interesting and informative. It definitely seems

> that Ptolemy must have dome some work on the subject. But the following

> lines definitely raise our eyebrows as well -

>

> //Ptolemy, who gave Greek astronomy its final form in the second century

> A.D., did the same--and more--for geography and cartography. His

> massive work on the subject, which summed up and criticized the work of

> earlier writers, offered instruction in laying out maps by three

> different methods of projection, provided coordinates for some eight

> thousand places, and treated such basic concepts as geographical

> latitude and longitude. In Byzantium, in the thirteenth century,

> Ptolemic maps were reconstructed and attached to Greek manuscripts of

> the text. And in the fifteenth century, a Latin translation of this

> text, with maps, proved a sensation in the world of the book. A best

> seller both in the age of luxurious manuscripts and in that of print,

> Ptolemy's " Geography " became immensely influential. Columbus-- one of

> its many readers--found inspiration in Ptolemy's exaggerated value for

> the size of Asia for his own fateful journey to the west. //

> * If Ptolemy's work done in 2nd century AD was 'available' then why

> it got reconstructed in 13th century?!!

> * If Ptolemy's text 'was not available' how some one assumed that it

> lists the Lat-Long (?) of 8000 Places?

> Definitely a lost book of 2nd century AD getting re-constructed in

> getting presented to the world much later in 13th century is really

> sensational - or was it not? Is not there a possibility of a fraud

> involved?

> The wikipedia link provides the info that -

> * //Arabic writer al-Mas'udi, while writing around 956, mentioned a

> colored map of the Geography which had 4530 cities and over 200

> mountains. // It is interesting the even the 10th century Arabic writer

> finds only 4530 cities in the MAP and NOT the possibly exagirated number

> 8000 places. Further the point to be noted is that it was a MAP and NOT

> a list of cities with their longitude and latitudes.

> * Now comming to the Longitude-Latitude concept the wikipedia link

> states as follows - //He assigned coordinates to all the places and

> geographic features he knew, in a grid that spanned the globe. Latitude

> was measured from the equator, as it is today, but Ptolemy preferred to

> express it as the length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc

> (the length of the midsummer day increases from 12h to 24h as one goes

> from the equator to the polar circle). He put the meridian of 0

> longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary Islands. //

> Please note the point - " but Ptolemy preferred to express it as the

> length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc " . Then was it

> really the concpet of Longitude-Latitude itself or something else? Any

> way the follow info about his prime meridian is interesting - //He put

> the meridian of 0 longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary

> Islands.//

> * Around BC 300 Alexander came to India. This interaction with

India

> must have enriched the understanding of Greeks about ancient indian

> knowledge and Indians about the Greek Knowledge. Is it not possible

> that Ptolemy was expressing this Ancient Indian knowledege on

> Latitude-Longitude he acquired from ancient indian texts? [in the

> India-Greece knowledge transaction due to Paitagorase's visit to India

> and Alaxander's attack - Greece seems to be rather on the recieving end

> as far as knowledge transaction is concered]

> Some points to ponder. (Some may argue that every knowledge came

> from East to West, some may argue that every knowledge came from West to

> east - both speak half truths, or half lies!)

> Any way, let other members comment in support of or against and let

> our understanding about knowledge and histroy improve!

> The following links also could be interest while discussing this

> subject -

> * Ptolomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy>

> * History of Geodesy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy>

> Thanks to Juliana ji for providing the info.

> OK. I should not forget to provide a link to the text (i.e.

Ptolemy's

> Geography as it is available now).

> 1) Ptolemy's Geography:

>

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pto\

> lemy/home.html

>

<http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pt\

> olemy/home.html>

> 2) Aubrey Diller's edition of Ptolemy's Geography (provided

> by the International Journal of Scientific History) :

> http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm

> <http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm>

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Juliana ji,

> > // Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer

> > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in

> > > depth. //

> > Could be - but we need to check what he said and what not; What was

> > his understanding (and limitation of knowledge) about this subject and

> > what is that is special in Indian understanding. What we need to

> > ponder is who, when and where this system might have originated, and

> who

> > all might have contributed to enriching this system.

> > For example - In numerous ancient indian texts we can find the

> words

> > such as 'Desantara " (distance between longitudes) or Charardha

> > (referring to the major latitude lines), but in Surya sidddhanta we

> find

> > the words " Lambamsa " (meaning, Vertical lines; refers to longitude)

> and

> > " Akshamsa " (meaning axial or horizontal lines; referring to Latitude).

> > This clear use of terminology indicates that the full fledged system

> of

> > Longitude-Latitude was in place by the time of Surya Siddhanta. It is

> > also important to note that during that time, the Longitudinal line

> > passing through Ujjain (a city near Rajastan-MP state border in

> Central

> > India) was considered as Prime Meridian. The Equatorial line was

> > supposed to pass through 4 vertical cardinal points named Lanka (Near

> > current Srilanka), Siddhapura, Ketumala (Near current Guatimala near

> > America), Romaka.

> > The astronomical methods for calculating Lambamsa-Akshamsa or

> > Charardha-Desantara must have been well known. (I need to do some

> study

> > to get correct understanding).

> > I request you to quote the info and statements Ptolemy provide

> about

> > this concept of Longitude-Latitude (if available). The following

> > statement of yours put me in doubt -

> > //He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and

> > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more " modern " theories, and

> he

> > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,

> much

> > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.//

> > Do you mean to say that Ptolemy’s statements on

> > Longitude-Latitude are available or not? If it is not available and

> also

> > reference to it is not available (seems to be so from your statement -

> > However, much of this material probably went into hiding during the

> > Dark Ages) how you assume that " Ptolemy, treated this topic in depth " .

> I

> > hope some of his statements on the same would be available, otherwise

> > how can you say so?! So let us look for the same, if it is available.

> > Let us look into this subject based on the available info, whether

> > from east or from west.

> >

> > Note: I made a typo in my previous mail. The text Surya Siddhanta (as

> > available today) is not yet dated, and any info that helps to date

> this

> > text is not available in it. This text was in existance prior to 5th

> > century (since Mihira of 5th century AD quotes it) for sure. So please

> > read the line " even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to

> > 'prior to BC 5th century') " as " even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which

> > dates back to 'prior to AD 5th century') " . Ancient Surya siddhanta is

> a

> > very old text and astronomical tradition; it cannot be dated correctly

> > in the absense of datable info not being provided by text. The

> > statement 'this text dates PRIOR to 5th century AD' does not in any

> way

> > mean that it originated in 3rd or 4th century. It could be a tradition

> > which a much ancient history.

> > Love and regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " jai.ma " jai.ma@

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello Sreenadh and All...

> > >

> > > I have enjoyed the posts here for some time and today this one in

> > > particular prompted me to respond. Whereas I certainly agree that

> " as

> > > far as the history of astronomical and geographical concepts are

> > > concerned, India deserves more credit " ...than it has received, I am

> > > not sure of the accuracy of your statement that the geographical

> > > coordinate system is relatively new to the Western world. From what

> I

> > > have read, Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer

> > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in

> > > depth. He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and

> > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more " modern " theories, and

> he

> > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,

> much

> > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > > Juliana S.

> > > Kamuela, Hawaii

> > >

> > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > sreesog@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear All,

> > > > I was just searching about the history of - the concept

> > > 'Longitude and

> > > > Latitude'. I was wonder struck on knowing that this concpet is

> > totally

> > > > NEW to the western world and that prior to 15th century Amerigo

> > Vespucci

> > > > and 17th century Galileo and Halley they didn't had much awareness

> > about

> > > > this concept - and also that even by this period their

> understanding

> > of

> > > > the Longitude-Latitude co-ordinate system was very limited!!!

> > > > Looking back to Indian astronomical history we find that, even in

> > > > Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to " prior to BC 5th

> > century " )

> > > > Longitude is termed " Lambamsa " and Latitude is termed " Akshamsa " .

> We

> > see

> > > > that similar to the words Akshamsa-Lambamsa; the words

> > > > " Charardha-Desandara " was also of popular use in astronomical

> > > > literature- whether the author be Aryabhata or Varaha Mihira of

> 6th

> > > > century BC. Desandara menas the distance (difference) between two

> > > > specific longitudes; the distance between two places. Ancient

> > Siddhantas

> > > > (astronomical texts), and Puranas (ancient texts with collects and

> > > > presents ancient knowledge in the form of story telling)

> mention/use

> > > > these words to refer to locations. It becomes well evident that

> the

> > > > concept of Longitude-Latitude originated in India!

> > > > It seems that we should improve our understanding about the

> > > history of

> > > > origin of this concept - as far as the history of astronomical and

> > > > geographical concepts are concerned India deserves more credit

> that

> > it

> > > > is ascribed with!

> > > > Love and regards,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > >

> >

>