Ptoelmy and Western History of the Concept of Longitude and Latitude etc.

[Guest guest]

Dear Juliana,

//Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use theterms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands ofcoordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. Forinstance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earthwhich later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, whothought he could sail West to reach Asia. //

 

The first fixed star catalouge was compiled by Timocharis and Aristyyly about 250 BC. in Greece.

 

 

The wobbling of the earth was officially discovered by a Greek astronomer Hipparchus around 190 BC and he recorded 108 stars with his naked eyes. .

 

 

Ptolemy was a great man and astronomer. In 100-150 BC when there were no instruments for one to check, like the Modern day, Ptolemy measured and prepared a catalouge of 1022 stars in 48 constellations in his work " Almagest" which he presented to the world. This by no means a easy task. This was a improvement on the above work.

 

After that for more than a 1000 years, each generation of astrologers added the current rate of preceision of equinoxes and made use of Ptolemys work. till the time of Ulugh Beg ( 1394-1449) a Mongolian and Turkish ruler who developed a sextant, and Regiomontanus ( 1436 -1476 ) who both reworked on Ptolemys treatise , which laid foundation for Albrecht Dunerer ( 1471-1528) to produce star maps based on the Poles of the Equators, rather than the way Ptolemy based his work on Poles of ecliptic.

 

Since that day onwards astronomers and astrologers have used the Poles of the Equator rather than that of the Ecliptic for all projections.

 

All astrology including Ptolemys was banned from Europe in the 5th century. It was rescued and preserved by the Arabs . Those centuries produced famous Arab ( Al Kindi and Abu Masha ) and Jewish ( Abraham Ibn Ezra ) astrologers. In the 13th century astrology crept back in Europe via Spain and Italy. Ptolemy was translated back into Latin from Arabic. His work was taught inall Universities for 3 centuries. He was a great man. He has written on Music, Geography, Optics, astronomy and calculated the distance of the Moon from the Earth.

 

After all the above information, I would like to conclude that for 1400 years his work has been used upon by lakhs of people all over the world. He was a great mathematician and Astronomer, but may not be a great Geographer where the errors have crept in his calculations, so we can just say that his geographical work may have been full of errors, but not his astronomical.

 

He has given us the " Tetrabibleous " which is considered to be a Magnum Opus.

 

Though Columbus in the 15th century may have got some mild shocks due to Ptolemys reports , yet we must not forget that Ptolemys most important contribution was his application of mathematics, to the mapping of positions on Earth according to Latitude and Longitude.

 

That poor man from whom perfections is expected, had no means of telscopes and aircrafts and satellites etc. to judge, and his errors in his geographical work were - The equator was far too North. The circumference of the Earth was 30% too small. Asia reached much further East, than in reality. The India Ocean was bounded in the South by another continent.

 

But let me tell you, the belief in a great southen continent was not abondoned until 1775, when James Cook returned from his voyage to the Southern Continent.

 

So at least Ptolemy had given something to the world for 1800 years to chew upon.......

 

best wishes,

Bhaskar.

, "jai.ma" <jai.ma wrote:>> Hi Sreenadh and all...> > Again I am not a historian though I have studied a little history of> the Western world.> > From what little I have read, Ptolemy's text on Geography did dominate> the Western (Christian and Islamic) world for 1500 or so years after> it was written. However, it is well known that a great deal of> knowledge in the Western world was lost or went underground> during the century after Ptolemy lived, due to the many great wars,> the rise and fall of various civilizations, and the clash of opposing> cultures in the dark times of Kali Yuga.> > Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the> terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of> coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For> instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth> which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who> thought he could sail West to reach Asia. > > Ptolemy worked under certain constraints and was limited in his> ability to collect accurate data. Even so, he is called the Father of> Geography in the Western world. He knew the Earth was a sphere and it> is said he "invented" longitude and latitude in the Western world.> Nobody knows for sure where Ptolemy found the data for his work, but> it is assumed he worked out of the great Library of Alexandria. It is> true that Alexandria, where he lived, was an important trading hub.> One is led to believe that some cross-pollination of knowledge took> place here with the Eastern world.> > Historical commentators say that Ptolemy lived during a time in> history when it may not have been safe to expose all his truth so he> may have covered up some knowledge to fit what was expected of him. > > Students of Jyotisha in America are taught that the astrology of India> is a more complete system than what has been reconstructed in more> modern times in Western astrology. The ancient astrology of Babylon> and Egypt were lost or made into secondary pursuits by medieval> Christian and Muslim cultures. India, however, has continued to> maintain its religion and culture, including astrology, from ancient> times. Hence, the astrology of India is considered by many to be an> older and more complete system. It is also taught by many scholars> that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe. > > But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor the> point? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive> thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises> from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history> and geography. Dr. David Frawley wrote in his _Astrology of the Seers_> that "Astrology is a good point of dialogue and interchange between> East and West, the ancient and the modern. It links together the> greatest diversity of cultures in the most common perceptions and> aspirations of humanity." I feel especially in these chaotic times on> our fragile planet that we will serve our Divine Mother more when we> look for confluence and union rather than perpetuating a mentality of> "us versus them/East versus West." Thank you for the discussion.> > Om shanti,> Juliana> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear All,> > Juliana ji provided me with the following info about Ptolemy's> > contribution to the concept of Latitude and Longitude.> > =============> > Hi Sreenadh....I am not a historian but these links may offer some> > illumination on the topic of Ptolemy and his work with Geography:> >> http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptolem\> > y_geo.html> >> <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\> > my_geo.html>> > > >> <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\> > my_geo.html> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> (Ptolemy)> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia_> Best,> > Juliana> > =============> > Both the links are interesting and informative. It definitely seems> > that Ptolemy must have dome some work on the subject. But the following> > lines definitely raise our eyebrows as well -> > > > //Ptolemy, who gave Greek astronomy its final form in the second century> > A.D., did the same--and more--for geography and cartography. His> > massive work on the subject, which summed up and criticized the work of> > earlier writers, offered instruction in laying out maps by three> > different methods of projection, provided coordinates for some eight> > thousand places, and treated such basic concepts as geographical> > latitude and longitude. In Byzantium, in the thirteenth century,> > Ptolemic maps were reconstructed and attached to Greek manuscripts of> > the text. And in the fifteenth century, a Latin translation of this> > text, with maps, proved a sensation in the world of the book. A best> > seller both in the age of luxurious manuscripts and in that of print,> > Ptolemy's "Geography" became immensely influential. Columbus-- one of> > its many readers--found inspiration in Ptolemy's exaggerated value for> > the size of Asia for his own fateful journey to the west. //> > * If Ptolemy's work done in 2nd century AD was 'available' then why> > it got reconstructed in 13th century?!!> > * If Ptolemy's text 'was not available' how some one assumed that it> > lists the Lat-Long (?) of 8000 Places?> > Definitely a lost book of 2nd century AD getting re-constructed in> > getting presented to the world much later in 13th century is really> > sensational - or was it not? Is not there a possibility of a fraud> > involved?> > The wikipedia link provides the info that -> > * //Arabic writer al-Mas'udi, while writing around 956, mentioned a> > colored map of the Geography which had 4530 cities and over 200> > mountains. // It is interesting the even the 10th century Arabic writer> > finds only 4530 cities in the MAP and NOT the possibly exagirated number> > 8000 places. Further the point to be noted is that it was a MAP and NOT> > a list of cities with their longitude and latitudes.> > * Now comming to the Longitude-Latitude concept the wikipedia link> > states as follows - //He assigned coordinates to all the places and> > geographic features he knew, in a grid that spanned the globe. Latitude> > was measured from the equator, as it is today, but Ptolemy preferred to> > express it as the length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc> > (the length of the midsummer day increases from 12h to 24h as one goes> > from the equator to the polar circle). He put the meridian of 0> > longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary Islands. //> > Please note the point - "but Ptolemy preferred to express it as the> > length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc". Then was it> > really the concpet of Longitude-Latitude itself or something else? Any> > way the follow info about his prime meridian is interesting - //He put> > the meridian of 0 longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary> > Islands.//> > * Around BC 300 Alexander came to India. This interaction with> India> > must have enriched the understanding of Greeks about ancient indian> > knowledge and Indians about the Greek Knowledge. Is it not possible> > that Ptolemy was expressing this Ancient Indian knowledege on> > Latitude-Longitude he acquired from ancient indian texts? [in the> > India-Greece knowledge transaction due to Paitagorase's visit to India> > and Alaxander's attack - Greece seems to be rather on the recieving end> > as far as knowledge transaction is concered]> > Some points to ponder. (Some may argue that every knowledge came> > from East to West, some may argue that every knowledge came from West to> > east - both speak half truths, or half lies!)> > Any way, let other members comment in support of or against and let> > our understanding about knowledge and histroy improve!> > The following links also could be interest while discussing this> > subject -> > * Ptolomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy>> > * History of Geodesy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy>> > Thanks to Juliana ji for providing the info.> > OK. I should not forget to provide a link to the text (i.e.> Ptolemy's> > Geography as it is available now).> > 1) Ptolemy's Geography:> >> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pto\> > lemy/home.html> >> <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pt\> > olemy/home.html>> > 2) Aubrey Diller's edition of Ptolemy's Geography (provided> > by the International Journal of Scientific History) :> > http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm> > <http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm>> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Juliana ji,> > > // Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer> > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in> > > > depth. //> > > Could be - but we need to check what he said and what not; What was> > > his understanding (and limitation of knowledge) about this subject and> > > what is that is special in Indian understanding. What we need to> > > ponder is who, when and where this system might have originated, and> > who> > > all might have contributed to enriching this system.> > > For example - In numerous ancient indian texts we can find the> > words> > > such as 'Desantara" (distance between longitudes) or Charardha> > > (referring to the major latitude lines), but in Surya sidddhanta we> > find> > > the words "Lambamsa" (meaning, Vertical lines; refers to longitude)> > and> > > "Akshamsa" (meaning axial or horizontal lines; referring to Latitude).> > > This clear use of terminology indicates that the full fledged system> > of> > > Longitude-Latitude was in place by the time of Surya Siddhanta. It is> > > also important to note that during that time, the Longitudinal line> > > passing through Ujjain (a city near Rajastan-MP state border in> > Central> > > India) was considered as Prime Meridian. The Equatorial line was> > > supposed to pass through 4 vertical cardinal points named Lanka (Near> > > current Srilanka), Siddhapura, Ketumala (Near current Guatimala near> > > America), Romaka.> > > The astronomical methods for calculating Lambamsa-Akshamsa or> > > Charardha-Desantara must have been well known. (I need to do some> > study> > > to get correct understanding).> > > I request you to quote the info and statements Ptolemy provide> > about> > > this concept of Longitude-Latitude (if available). The following> > > statement of yours put me in doubt -> > > //He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and> > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more "modern" theories, and> > he> > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,> > much> > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.//> > > Do you mean to say that Ptolemy’s statements on> > > Longitude-Latitude are available or not? If it is not available and> > also> > > reference to it is not available (seems to be so from your statement -> > > However, much of this material probably went into hiding during the> > > Dark Ages) how you assume that "Ptolemy, treated this topic in depth".> > I> > > hope some of his statements on the same would be available, otherwise> > > how can you say so?! So let us look for the same, if it is available.> > > Let us look into this subject based on the available info, whether> > > from east or from west.> > >> > > Note: I made a typo in my previous mail. The text Surya Siddhanta (as> > > available today) is not yet dated, and any info that helps to date> > this> > > text is not available in it. This text was in existance prior to 5th> > > century (since Mihira of 5th century AD quotes it) for sure. So please> > > read the line "even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to> > > 'prior to BC 5th century')" as "even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which> > > dates back to 'prior to AD 5th century')". Ancient Surya siddhanta is> > a> > > very old text and astronomical tradition; it cannot be dated correctly> > > in the absense of datable info not being provided by text. The> > > statement 'this text dates PRIOR to 5th century AD' does not in any> > way> > > mean that it originated in 3rd or 4th century. It could be a tradition> > > which a much ancient history.> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "jai.ma" jai.ma@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > Hello Sreenadh and All...> > > >> > > > I have enjoyed the posts here for some time and today this one in> > > > particular prompted me to respond. Whereas I certainly agree that> > "as> > > > far as the history of astronomical and geographical concepts are> > > > concerned, India deserves more credit"...than it has received, I am> > > > not sure of the accuracy of your statement that the geographical> > > > coordinate system is relatively new to the Western world. From what> > I> > > > have read, Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer> > > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in> > > > depth. He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and> > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more "modern" theories, and> > he> > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,> > much> > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.> > > >> > > > Best,> > > > Juliana S.> > > > Kamuela, Hawaii> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear All,> > > > > I was just searching about the history of - the concept> > > > 'Longitude and> > > > > Latitude'. I was wonder struck on knowing that this concpet is> > > totally> > > > > NEW to the western world and that prior to 15th century Amerigo> > > Vespucci> > > > > and 17th century Galileo and Halley they didn't had much awareness> > > about> > > > > this concept - and also that even by this period their> > understanding> > > of> > > > > the Longitude-Latitude co-ordinate system was very limited!!!> > > > > Looking back to Indian astronomical history we find that, even in> > > > > Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to "prior to BC 5th> > > century")> > > > > Longitude is termed "Lambamsa" and Latitude is termed "Akshamsa".> > We> > > see> > > > > that similar to the words Akshamsa-Lambamsa; the words> > > > > "Charardha-Desandara" was also of popular use in astronomical> > > > > literature- whether the author be Aryabhata or Varaha Mihira of> > 6th> > > > > century BC. Desandara menas the distance (difference) between two> > > > > specific longitudes; the distance between two places. Ancient> > > Siddhantas> > > > > (astronomical texts), and Puranas (ancient texts with collects and> > > > > presents ancient knowledge in the form of story telling)> > mention/use> > > > > these words to refer to locations. It becomes well evident that> > the> > > > > concept of Longitude-Latitude originated in India!> > > > > It seems that we should improve our understanding about the> > > > history of> > > > > origin of this concept - as far as the history of astronomical and> > > > > geographical concepts are concerned India deserves more credit> > that> > > it> > > > > is ascribed with!> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Juliana.

// But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor thepoint? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisivethinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arisesfrom the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history and geography. //

I agree with you on above.

You mentioned about David Frawley. I would request the members to also read the first 20 Pages of Alan Leos " How to judge a Nativity " which has a storehouse of immense spiritual insights for any astrologer. In fact I have at least 10-12 names of western astrologers whom I respect very much, and would wish my interested friends to read, not just for their astrological hold, on a natives physiology as seen through the planets, but more for their beautiful spiritual natures seen through the readers eyes.

best wishes, Bhaskar.

 

, "jai.ma" <jai.ma wrote:>> Hi Sreenadh and all...> > Again I am not a historian though I have studied a little history of> the Western world.> > From what little I have read, Ptolemy's text on Geography did dominate> the Western (Christian and Islamic) world for 1500 or so years after> it was written. However, it is well known that a great deal of> knowledge in the Western world was lost or went underground> during the century after Ptolemy lived, due to the many great wars,> the rise and fall of various civilizations, and the clash of opposing> cultures in the dark times of Kali Yuga.> > Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the> terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of> coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For> instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth> which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who> thought he could sail West to reach Asia. > > Ptolemy worked under certain constraints and was limited in his> ability to collect accurate data. Even so, he is called the Father of> Geography in the Western world. He knew the Earth was a sphere and it> is said he "invented" longitude and latitude in the Western world.> Nobody knows for sure where Ptolemy found the data for his work, but> it is assumed he worked out of the great Library of Alexandria. It is> true that Alexandria, where he lived, was an important trading hub.> One is led to believe that some cross-pollination of knowledge took> place here with the Eastern world.> > Historical commentators say that Ptolemy lived during a time in> history when it may not have been safe to expose all his truth so he> may have covered up some knowledge to fit what was expected of him. > > Students of Jyotisha in America are taught that the astrology of India> is a more complete system than what has been reconstructed in more> modern times in Western astrology. The ancient astrology of Babylon> and Egypt were lost or made into secondary pursuits by medieval> Christian and Muslim cultures. India, however, has continued to> maintain its religion and culture, including astrology, from ancient> times. Hence, the astrology of India is considered by many to be an> older and more complete system. It is also taught by many scholars> that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe. > > But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor the> point? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive> thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises> from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history> and geography. Dr. David Frawley wrote in his _Astrology of the Seers_> that "Astrology is a good point of dialogue and interchange between> East and West, the ancient and the modern. It links together the> greatest diversity of cultures in the most common perceptions and> aspirations of humanity." I feel especially in these chaotic times on> our fragile planet that we will serve our Divine Mother more when we> look for confluence and union rather than perpetuating a mentality of> "us versus them/East versus West." Thank you for the discussion.> > Om shanti,> Juliana> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear All,> > Juliana ji provided me with the following info about Ptolemy's> > contribution to the concept of Latitude and Longitude.> > =============> > Hi Sreenadh....I am not a historian but these links may offer some> > illumination on the topic of Ptolemy and his work with Geography:> >> http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptolem\> > y_geo.html> >> <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\> > my_geo.html>> > > >> <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\> > my_geo.html> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> (Ptolemy)> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia_> Best,> > Juliana> > =============> > Both the links are interesting and informative. It definitely seems> > that Ptolemy must have dome some work on the subject. But the following> > lines definitely raise our eyebrows as well -> > > > //Ptolemy, who gave Greek astronomy its final form in the second century> > A.D., did the same--and more--for geography and cartography. His> > massive work on the subject, which summed up and criticized the work of> > earlier writers, offered instruction in laying out maps by three> > different methods of projection, provided coordinates for some eight> > thousand places, and treated such basic concepts as geographical> > latitude and longitude. In Byzantium, in the thirteenth century,> > Ptolemic maps were reconstructed and attached to Greek manuscripts of> > the text. And in the fifteenth century, a Latin translation of this> > text, with maps, proved a sensation in the world of the book. A best> > seller both in the age of luxurious manuscripts and in that of print,> > Ptolemy's "Geography" became immensely influential. Columbus-- one of> > its many readers--found inspiration in Ptolemy's exaggerated value for> > the size of Asia for his own fateful journey to the west. //> > * If Ptolemy's work done in 2nd century AD was 'available' then why> > it got reconstructed in 13th century?!!> > * If Ptolemy's text 'was not available' how some one assumed that it> > lists the Lat-Long (?) of 8000 Places?> > Definitely a lost book of 2nd century AD getting re-constructed in> > getting presented to the world much later in 13th century is really> > sensational - or was it not? Is not there a possibility of a fraud> > involved?> > The wikipedia link provides the info that -> > * //Arabic writer al-Mas'udi, while writing around 956, mentioned a> > colored map of the Geography which had 4530 cities and over 200> > mountains. // It is interesting the even the 10th century Arabic writer> > finds only 4530 cities in the MAP and NOT the possibly exagirated number> > 8000 places. Further the point to be noted is that it was a MAP and NOT> > a list of cities with their longitude and latitudes.> > * Now comming to the Longitude-Latitude concept the wikipedia link> > states as follows - //He assigned coordinates to all the places and> > geographic features he knew, in a grid that spanned the globe. Latitude> > was measured from the equator, as it is today, but Ptolemy preferred to> > express it as the length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc> > (the length of the midsummer day increases from 12h to 24h as one goes> > from the equator to the polar circle). He put the meridian of 0> > longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary Islands. //> > Please note the point - "but Ptolemy preferred to express it as the> > length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc". Then was it> > really the concpet of Longitude-Latitude itself or something else? Any> > way the follow info about his prime meridian is interesting - //He put> > the meridian of 0 longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary> > Islands.//> > * Around BC 300 Alexander came to India. This interaction with> India> > must have enriched the understanding of Greeks about ancient indian> > knowledge and Indians about the Greek Knowledge. Is it not possible> > that Ptolemy was expressing this Ancient Indian knowledege on> > Latitude-Longitude he acquired from ancient indian texts? [in the> > India-Greece knowledge transaction due to Paitagorase's visit to India> > and Alaxander's attack - Greece seems to be rather on the recieving end> > as far as knowledge transaction is concered]> > Some points to ponder. (Some may argue that every knowledge came> > from East to West, some may argue that every knowledge came from West to> > east - both speak half truths, or half lies!)> > Any way, let other members comment in support of or against and let> > our understanding about knowledge and histroy improve!> > The following links also could be interest while discussing this> > subject -> > * Ptolomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy>> > * History of Geodesy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy>> > Thanks to Juliana ji for providing the info.> > OK. I should not forget to provide a link to the text (i.e.> Ptolemy's> > Geography as it is available now).> > 1) Ptolemy's Geography:> >> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pto\> > lemy/home.html> >> <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pt\> > olemy/home.html>> > 2) Aubrey Diller's edition of Ptolemy's Geography (provided> > by the International Journal of Scientific History) :> > http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm> > <http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm>> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Juliana ji,> > > // Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer> > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in> > > > depth. //> > > Could be - but we need to check what he said and what not; What was> > > his understanding (and limitation of knowledge) about this subject and> > > what is that is special in Indian understanding. What we need to> > > ponder is who, when and where this system might have originated, and> > who> > > all might have contributed to enriching this system.> > > For example - In numerous ancient indian texts we can find the> > words> > > such as 'Desantara" (distance between longitudes) or Charardha> > > (referring to the major latitude lines), but in Surya sidddhanta we> > find> > > the words "Lambamsa" (meaning, Vertical lines; refers to longitude)> > and> > > "Akshamsa" (meaning axial or horizontal lines; referring to Latitude).> > > This clear use of terminology indicates that the full fledged system> > of> > > Longitude-Latitude was in place by the time of Surya Siddhanta. It is> > > also important to note that during that time, the Longitudinal line> > > passing through Ujjain (a city near Rajastan-MP state border in> > Central> > > India) was considered as Prime Meridian. The Equatorial line was> > > supposed to pass through 4 vertical cardinal points named Lanka (Near> > > current Srilanka), Siddhapura, Ketumala (Near current Guatimala near> > > America), Romaka.> > > The astronomical methods for calculating Lambamsa-Akshamsa or> > > Charardha-Desantara must have been well known. (I need to do some> > study> > > to get correct understanding).> > > I request you to quote the info and statements Ptolemy provide> > about> > > this concept of Longitude-Latitude (if available). The following> > > statement of yours put me in doubt -> > > //He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and> > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more "modern" theories, and> > he> > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,> > much> > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.//> > > Do you mean to say that Ptolemy’s statements on> > > Longitude-Latitude are available or not? If it is not available and> > also> > > reference to it is not available (seems to be so from your statement -> > > However, much of this material probably went into hiding during the> > > Dark Ages) how you assume that "Ptolemy, treated this topic in depth".> > I> > > hope some of his statements on the same would be available, otherwise> > > how can you say so?! So let us look for the same, if it is available.> > > Let us look into this subject based on the available info, whether> > > from east or from west.> > >> > > Note: I made a typo in my previous mail. The text Surya Siddhanta (as> > > available today) is not yet dated, and any info that helps to date> > this> > > text is not available in it. This text was in existance prior to 5th> > > century (since Mihira of 5th century AD quotes it) for sure. So please> > > read the line "even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to> > > 'prior to BC 5th century')" as "even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which> > > dates back to 'prior to AD 5th century')". Ancient Surya siddhanta is> > a> > > very old text and astronomical tradition; it cannot be dated correctly> > > in the absense of datable info not being provided by text. The> > > statement 'this text dates PRIOR to 5th century AD' does not in any> > way> > > mean that it originated in 3rd or 4th century. It could be a tradition> > > which a much ancient history.> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "jai.ma" jai.ma@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > Hello Sreenadh and All...> > > >> > > > I have enjoyed the posts here for some time and today this one in> > > > particular prompted me to respond. Whereas I certainly agree that> > "as> > > > far as the history of astronomical and geographical concepts are> > > > concerned, India deserves more credit"...than it has received, I am> > > > not sure of the accuracy of your statement that the geographical> > > > coordinate system is relatively new to the Western world. From what> > I> > > > have read, Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer> > > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in> > > > depth. He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and> > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more "modern" theories, and> > he> > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,> > much> > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.> > > >> > > > Best,> > > > Juliana S.> > > > Kamuela, Hawaii> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear All,> > > > > I was just searching about the history of - the concept> > > > 'Longitude and> > > > > Latitude'. I was wonder struck on knowing that this concpet is> > > totally> > > > > NEW to the western world and that prior to 15th century Amerigo> > > Vespucci> > > > > and 17th century Galileo and Halley they didn't had much awareness> > > about> > > > > this concept - and also that even by this period their> > understanding> > > of> > > > > the Longitude-Latitude co-ordinate system was very limited!!!> > > > > Looking back to Indian astronomical history we find that, even in> > > > > Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to "prior to BC 5th> > > century")> > > > > Longitude is termed "Lambamsa" and Latitude is termed "Akshamsa".> > We> > > see> > > > > that similar to the words Akshamsa-Lambamsa; the words> > > > > "Charardha-Desandara" was also of popular use in astronomical> > > > > literature- whether the author be Aryabhata or Varaha Mihira of> > 6th> > > > > century BC. Desandara menas the distance (difference) between two> > > > > specific longitudes; the distance between two places. Ancient> > > Siddhantas> > > > > (astronomical texts), and Puranas (ancient texts with collects and> > > > > presents ancient knowledge in the form of story telling)> > mention/use> > > > > these words to refer to locations. It becomes well evident that> > the> > > > > concept of Longitude-Latitude originated in India!> > > > > It seems that we should improve our understanding about the> > > > history of> > > > > origin of this concept - as far as the history of astronomical and> > > > > geographical concepts are concerned India deserves more credit> > that> > > it> > > > > is ascribed with!> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bhaskar et al...

 

Absolutely I agree that Ptolemy made many important contributions in

astronomy, astrology, geography etc. He was evidently a genius, and

really, who would even care that he presumably made a few mistakes in

some calculations here and there. Or maybe he did not make

mistakes...maybe he concealed the truth to avoid political

persecution? Nobody knows. The whole point of this discussion was my

response to an earlier post by Sreenadh in which he said that certain

elements of geography were not discovered (in the Western world) until

the middle ages of Europe.

 

Re: geographical coordinates, I am pretty sure that these concepts

were understood in the Western world even long before Ptolemy. For

instance, the ancient Assyrians, a Semitic tribe living in Mesopotamia

(modern Iraq) from ~1100-600 BC, are said to have " invented " longitude

and latitude, which they used for navigation purposes.

 

Alan Leo (WF Allen or Agorel) is called the Father of Modern Western

Astrology. I read him extensively as a young teenager.I am happy you

love him, too. He emphasized character analysis rather than

prediction, which is a major area of divergence in Modern Western

versus Indian systems of astrology. Alan Leo traveled to India in the

early 1900s and studied Jyotisha. He brought some techniques back with

him, for instance some of the harmonic charts.

 

Thanks!

Juliana

[Guest guest]

Dear Juliana ji, Thanks for the informative mail even though I am against some points you raised against Ptolemy and Arya migration. Let me quote- //For instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earthwhich later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, whothought he could sail West to reach Asia. // This must be wrong info. Ptolemy had calculated the circumference of Earth correctly. Like every good ancient astronomer scholar he had calculated the circumference of earth 'based on the place he lived' - this is important please not it. This means that the circumference they give will be true only for the latitude in which they live; they are NOT giving the circumference of earth at the equator (nor they mentioned so). If the modern scholars with a foolish view of looking at ancient knowledge based on current stand point and understanding, with pre-conceived assumptions are making errors (in this case they 'assume' without base the Ptolemy must be giving the circumference of earth at the equator; Neither Ptolemy nor anyone else said so) then who should be blamed? Is it Ptolemy, or the fools who look at ancient data based on modern understanding and tools, without ever trying to follow the path and steps those ancient scholars used? (Chandrahari has written an article on the birth place of Aryabhata, and he has conclusively proved in the same that almost all the ancient known astronomers whether Indian or Greek had calculated the circumference of earth based on their birth place itself. He has clarified that the same is true for Ptolemy as well with calculations). //It is also taught by many scholars> that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe. // I don't agree. The original home land Aryans is NOT India. There much in common between the ancient culture of Celts, the ancient Vicca religion, the Iranian Avestan religion, and the Vedic religion. They are all of the same thread. It is Aryana which got named as Iran, it is said. It seems definite, and the evidences support the fact that, the semi cultured aryans from central Asia, Europe, or Iran have came to India and mingled with and destroyed to an extend the well civilized native culture of India which had great cities (like Mahanjadaro or Harappa) that could be ascribed to Saiva Agama ppl or Ancient Naga ppl. The Vedic Brahmin cult of India came to india from outside, but flourished and improved their language capabilities in India (especially due to the contribution of Naga scholars like Patanjali and Panini). The vedic cult is called Nigama and indigenous cult was called Agama cult (Tantric cult), to which belongs the temples and idol worship the natal religion and culture of India (originated by Saiva agama, Naga ppl). Of course it could be true that many migrated from India to outside - but in that case that won't be Aryans but the ppl of Sinddhu-Sarasvati civilization (the Mohenjadaro- Harappa people). So the truth should be that there was both to and fro flow; both migration to india of the Aryans and the migration of indigenous Indians to the western lands. //Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive> thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises> from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history> and geography.// You are absolutely right - "all knowledge arises from one source being, which transcends time and place/history and geography"; well said! But the terminology "East-West" (NOT East vs West) has its own benefit when we want to classify and present info. So it is just for the classification purpose that the term is used; the truth as you said is - "all humans are one and the copiousness one and the same". If you ask me - I will term all Vedas as Aryan or Western knowledge, but all the Tantric knowledge and even the Ionian, Crete and Meso-American knowledge as Eastern and Agama!!! So it is all about the perspective - so don't worry. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "jai.ma" <jai.ma wrote:>> Hi Sreenadh and all...> > Again I am not a historian though I have studied a little history of> the Western world.> > From what little I have read, Ptolemy's text on Geography did dominate> the Western (Christian and Islamic) world for 1500 or so years after> it was written. However, it is well known that a great deal of> knowledge in the Western world was lost or went underground> during the century after Ptolemy lived, due to the many great wars,> the rise and fall of various civilizations, and the clash of opposing> cultures in the dark times of Kali Yuga.> > Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the> terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of> coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For> instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth> which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who> thought he could sail West to reach Asia. > > Ptolemy worked under certain constraints and was limited in his> ability to collect accurate data. Even so, he is called the Father of> Geography in the Western world. He knew the Earth was a sphere and it> is said he "invented" longitude and latitude in the Western world.> Nobody knows for sure where Ptolemy found the data for his work, but> it is assumed he worked out of the great Library of Alexandria. It is> true that Alexandria, where he lived, was an important trading hub.> One is led to believe that some cross-pollination of knowledge took> place here with the Eastern world.> > Historical commentators say that Ptolemy lived during a time in> history when it may not have been safe to expose all his truth so he> may have covered up some knowledge to fit what was expected of him. > > Students of Jyotisha in America are taught that the astrology of India> is a more complete system than what has been reconstructed in more> modern times in Western astrology. The ancient astrology of Babylon> and Egypt were lost or made into secondary pursuits by medieval> Christian and Muslim cultures. India, however, has continued to> maintain its religion and culture, including astrology, from ancient> times. Hence, the astrology of India is considered by many to be an> older and more complete system. It is also taught by many scholars> that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe. > > But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor the> point? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive> thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises> from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history> and geography. Dr. David Frawley wrote in his _Astrology of the Seers_> that "Astrology is a good point of dialogue and interchange between> East and West, the ancient and the modern. It links together the> greatest diversity of cultures in the most common perceptions and> aspirations of humanity." I feel especially in these chaotic times on> our fragile planet that we will serve our Divine Mother more when we> look for confluence and union rather than perpetuating a mentality of> "us versus them/East versus West." Thank you for the discussion.> > Om shanti,> Juliana> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear All,> > Juliana ji provided me with the following info about Ptolemy's> > contribution to the concept of Latitude and Longitude.> > =============> > Hi Sreenadh....I am not a historian but these links may offer some> > illumination on the topic of Ptolemy and his work with Geography:> >> http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptolem\> > y_geo.html> >> <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\> > my_geo.html>> > > >> <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\> > my_geo.html> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> (Ptolemy)> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia_> Best,> > Juliana> > =============> > Both the links are interesting and informative. It definitely seems> > that Ptolemy must have dome some work on the subject. But the following> > lines definitely raise our eyebrows as well -> > > > //Ptolemy, who gave Greek astronomy its final form in the second century> > A.D., did the same--and more--for geography and cartography. His> > massive work on the subject, which summed up and criticized the work of> > earlier writers, offered instruction in laying out maps by three> > different methods of projection, provided coordinates for some eight> > thousand places, and treated such basic concepts as geographical> > latitude and longitude. In Byzantium, in the thirteenth century,> > Ptolemic maps were reconstructed and attached to Greek manuscripts of> > the text. And in the fifteenth century, a Latin translation of this> > text, with maps, proved a sensation in the world of the book. A best> > seller both in the age of luxurious manuscripts and in that of print,> > Ptolemy's "Geography" became immensely influential. Columbus-- one of> > its many readers--found inspiration in Ptolemy's exaggerated value for> > the size of Asia for his own fateful journey to the west. //> > * If Ptolemy's work done in 2nd century AD was 'available' then why> > it got reconstructed in 13th century?!!> > * If Ptolemy's text 'was not available' how some one assumed that it> > lists the Lat-Long (?) of 8000 Places?> > Definitely a lost book of 2nd century AD getting re-constructed in> > getting presented to the world much later in 13th century is really> > sensational - or was it not? Is not there a possibility of a fraud> > involved?> > The wikipedia link provides the info that -> > * //Arabic writer al-Mas'udi, while writing around 956, mentioned a> > colored map of the Geography which had 4530 cities and over 200> > mountains. // It is interesting the even the 10th century Arabic writer> > finds only 4530 cities in the MAP and NOT the possibly exagirated number> > 8000 places. Further the point to be noted is that it was a MAP and NOT> > a list of cities with their longitude and latitudes.> > * Now comming to the Longitude-Latitude concept the wikipedia link> > states as follows - //He assigned coordinates to all the places and> > geographic features he knew, in a grid that spanned the globe. Latitude> > was measured from the equator, as it is today, but Ptolemy preferred to> > express it as the length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc> > (the length of the midsummer day increases from 12h to 24h as one goes> > from the equator to the polar circle). He put the meridian of 0> > longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary Islands. //> > Please note the point - "but Ptolemy preferred to express it as the> > length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc". Then was it> > really the concpet of Longitude-Latitude itself or something else? Any> > way the follow info about his prime meridian is interesting - //He put> > the meridian of 0 longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary> > Islands.//> > * Around BC 300 Alexander came to India. This interaction with> India> > must have enriched the understanding of Greeks about ancient indian> > knowledge and Indians about the Greek Knowledge. Is it not possible> > that Ptolemy was expressing this Ancient Indian knowledege on> > Latitude-Longitude he acquired from ancient indian texts? [in the> > India-Greece knowledge transaction due to Paitagorase's visit to India> > and Alaxander's attack - Greece seems to be rather on the recieving end> > as far as knowledge transaction is concered]> > Some points to ponder. (Some may argue that every knowledge came> > from East to West, some may argue that every knowledge came from West to> > east - both speak half truths, or half lies!)> > Any way, let other members comment in support of or against and let> > our understanding about knowledge and histroy improve!> > The following links also could be interest while discussing this> > subject -> > * Ptolomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy>> > * History of Geodesy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy>> > Thanks to Juliana ji for providing the info.> > OK. I should not forget to provide a link to the text (i.e.> Ptolemy's> > Geography as it is available now).> > 1) Ptolemy's Geography:> >> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pto\> > lemy/home.html> >> <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pt\> > olemy/home.html>> > 2) Aubrey Diller's edition of Ptolemy's Geography (provided> > by the International Journal of Scientific History) :> > http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm> > <http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm>> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Juliana ji,> > > // Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer> > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in> > > > depth. //> > > Could be - but we need to check what he said and what not; What was> > > his understanding (and limitation of knowledge) about this subject and> > > what is that is special in Indian understanding. What we need to> > > ponder is who, when and where this system might have originated, and> > who> > > all might have contributed to enriching this system.> > > For example - In numerous ancient indian texts we can find the> > words> > > such as 'Desantara" (distance between longitudes) or Charardha> > > (referring to the major latitude lines), but in Surya sidddhanta we> > find> > > the words "Lambamsa" (meaning, Vertical lines; refers to longitude)> > and> > > "Akshamsa" (meaning axial or horizontal lines; referring to Latitude).> > > This clear use of terminology indicates that the full fledged system> > of> > > Longitude-Latitude was in place by the time of Surya Siddhanta. It is> > > also important to note that during that time, the Longitudinal line> > > passing through Ujjain (a city near Rajastan-MP state border in> > Central> > > India) was considered as Prime Meridian. The Equatorial line was> > > supposed to pass through 4 vertical cardinal points named Lanka (Near> > > current Srilanka), Siddhapura, Ketumala (Near current Guatimala near> > > America), Romaka.> > > The astronomical methods for calculating Lambamsa-Akshamsa or> > > Charardha-Desantara must have been well known. (I need to do some> > study> > > to get correct understanding).> > > I request you to quote the info and statements Ptolemy provide> > about> > > this concept of Longitude-Latitude (if available). The following> > > statement of yours put me in doubt -> > > //He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and> > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more "modern" theories, and> > he> > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,> > much> > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.//> > > Do you mean to say that Ptolemy’s statements on> > > Longitude-Latitude are available or not? If it is not available and> > also> > > reference to it is not available (seems to be so from your statement -> > > However, much of this material probably went into hiding during the> > > Dark Ages) how you assume that "Ptolemy, treated this topic in depth".> > I> > > hope some of his statements on the same would be available, otherwise> > > how can you say so?! So let us look for the same, if it is available.> > > Let us look into this subject based on the available info, whether> > > from east or from west.> > >> > > Note: I made a typo in my previous mail. The text Surya Siddhanta (as> > > available today) is not yet dated, and any info that helps to date> > this> > > text is not available in it. This text was in existance prior to 5th> > > century (since Mihira of 5th century AD quotes it) for sure. So please> > > read the line "even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to> > > 'prior to BC 5th century')" as "even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which> > > dates back to 'prior to AD 5th century')". Ancient Surya siddhanta is> > a> > > very old text and astronomical tradition; it cannot be dated correctly> > > in the absense of datable info not being provided by text. The> > > statement 'this text dates PRIOR to 5th century AD' does not in any> > way> > > mean that it originated in 3rd or 4th century. It could be a tradition> > > which a much ancient history.> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "jai.ma" jai.ma@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > Hello Sreenadh and All...> > > >> > > > I have enjoyed the posts here for some time and today this one in> > > > particular prompted me to respond. Whereas I certainly agree that> > "as> > > > far as the history of astronomical and geographical concepts are> > > > concerned, India deserves more credit"...than it has received, I am> > > > not sure of the accuracy of your statement that the geographical> > > > coordinate system is relatively new to the Western world. From what> > I> > > > have read, Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer> > > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in> > > > depth. He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and> > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more "modern" theories, and> > he> > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude. However,> > much> > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.> > > >> > > > Best,> > > > Juliana S.> > > > Kamuela, Hawaii> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear All,> > > > > I was just searching about the history of - the concept> > > > 'Longitude and> > > > > Latitude'. I was wonder struck on knowing that this concpet is> > > totally> > > > > NEW to the western world and that prior to 15th century Amerigo> > > Vespucci> > > > > and 17th century Galileo and Halley they didn't had much awareness> > > about> > > > > this concept - and also that even by this period their> > understanding> > > of> > > > > the Longitude-Latitude co-ordinate system was very limited!!!> > > > > Looking back to Indian astronomical history we find that, even in> > > > > Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to "prior to BC 5th> > > century")> > > > > Longitude is termed "Lambamsa" and Latitude is termed "Akshamsa".> > We> > > see> > > > > that similar to the words Akshamsa-Lambamsa; the words> > > > > "Charardha-Desandara" was also of popular use in astronomical> > > > > literature- whether the author be Aryabhata or Varaha Mihira of> > 6th> > > > > century BC. Desandara menas the distance (difference) between two> > > > > specific longitudes; the distance between two places. Ancient> > > Siddhantas> > > > > (astronomical texts), and Puranas (ancient texts with collects and> > > > > presents ancient knowledge in the form of story telling)> > mention/use> > > > > these words to refer to locations. It becomes well evident that> > the> > > > > concept of Longitude-Latitude originated in India!> > > > > It seems that we should improve our understanding about the> > > > history of> > > > > origin of this concept - as far as the history of astronomical and> > > > > geographical concepts are concerned India deserves more credit> > that> > > it> > > > > is ascribed with!> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaskar ji, That was a truly remarkable and informative write-up. If this was the type and class of responses that happen in this forum for every subject, who would not love to be an integral part of this group for long?!! Thanks a lot for that lovely note. //That poor man from whom perfections is expected, had no> means of telscopes and aircrafts and satellites etc. to judge, and his> errors in his geographical work were - The equator was far too North.> The circumference of the Earth was 30% too small. Asia reached much> further East, than in reality. The India Ocean was bounded in the South> by another continent. But let me tell you, the belief in a great> southen continent was not abondoned until 1775, when James Cook returned> from his voyage to the Southern Continent. So at least Ptolemy had> given something to the world for 1800 years to chew upon....... // Those lines has a special touch of humanity, affection but at the same time much informative. I liked the way you presented it. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Bhaskar" <rajiventerprises wrote:>> > Dear Juliana,> //Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the> terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of> coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For> instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth> which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who> thought he could sail West to reach Asia. // The first fixed star> catalouge was compiled by Timocharis and Aristyyly about 250 BC. in> Greece. The wobbling of the earth was officially discovered by a> Greek astronomer Hipparchus around 190 BC and he recorded 108 stars with> his naked eyes. . Ptolemy was a great man and astronomer. In 100-150> BC when there were no instruments for one to check, like the Modern day,> Ptolemy measured and prepared a catalouge of 1022 stars in 48> constellations in his work " Almagest" which he presented to the world.> This by no means a easy task. This was a improvement on the above work.> After that for more than a 1000 years, each generation of astrologers> added the current rate of preceision of equinoxes and made use of> Ptolemys work. till the time of Ulugh Beg ( 1394-1449) a Mongolian and> Turkish ruler who developed a sextant, and Regiomontanus ( 1436 -1476 )> who both reworked on Ptolemys treatise , which laid foundation for> Albrecht Dunerer ( 1471-1528) to produce star maps based on the Poles of> the Equators, rather than the way Ptolemy based his work on Poles of> ecliptic. Since that day onwards astronomers and astrologers have> used the Poles of the Equator rather than that of the Ecliptic for all> projections. All astrology including Ptolemys was banned from Europe> in the 5th century. It was rescued and preserved by the Arabs . Those> centuries produced famous Arab ( Al Kindi and Abu Masha ) and Jewish (> Abraham Ibn Ezra ) astrologers. In the 13th century astrology crept back> in Europe via Spain and Italy. Ptolemy was translated back into Latin> from Arabic. His work was taught inall Universities for 3 centuries. He> was a great man. He has written on Music, Geography, Optics, astronomy> and calculated the distance of the Moon from the Earth. After all the> above information, I would like to conclude that for 1400 years his work> has been used upon by lakhs of people all over the world. He was a great> mathematician and Astronomer, but may not be a great Geographer where> the errors have crept in his calculations, so we can just say that his> geographical work may have been full of errors, but not his> astronomical. He has given us the " Tetrabibleous " which is> considered to be a Magnum Opus. Though Columbus in the 15th century> may have got some mild shocks due to Ptolemys reports , yet we must not> forget that Ptolemys most important contribution was his application of> mathematics, to the mapping of positions on Earth according to Latitude> and Longitude. That poor man from whom perfections is expected, had no> means of telscopes and aircrafts and satellites etc. to judge, and his> errors in his geographical work were - The equator was far too North.> The circumference of the Earth was 30% too small. Asia reached much> further East, than in reality. The India Ocean was bounded in the South> by another continent. But let me tell you, the belief in a great> southen continent was not abondoned until 1775, when James Cook returned> from his voyage to the Southern Continent. So at least Ptolemy had> given something to the world for 1800 years to chew upon....... best> wishes, Bhaskar.> > , "jai.ma" jai.ma@> wrote:> >> > Hi Sreenadh and all...> >> > Again I am not a historian though I have studied a little history of> > the Western world.> >> > From what little I have read, Ptolemy's text on Geography did dominate> > the Western (Christian and Islamic) world for 1500 or so years after> > it was written. However, it is well known that a great deal of> > knowledge in the Western world was lost or went underground> > during the century after Ptolemy lived, due to the many great wars,> > the rise and fall of various civilizations, and the clash of opposing> > cultures in the dark times of Kali Yuga.> >> > Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the> > terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of> > coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For> > instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth> > which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who> > thought he could sail West to reach Asia.> >> > Ptolemy worked under certain constraints and was limited in his> > ability to collect accurate data. Even so, he is called the Father of> > Geography in the Western world. He knew the Earth was a sphere and it> > is said he "invented" longitude and latitude in the Western world.> > Nobody knows for sure where Ptolemy found the data for his work, but> > it is assumed he worked out of the great Library of Alexandria. It is> > true that Alexandria, where he lived, was an important trading hub.> > One is led to believe that some cross-pollination of knowledge took> > place here with the Eastern world.> >> > Historical commentators say that Ptolemy lived during a time in> > history when it may not have been safe to expose all his truth so he> > may have covered up some knowledge to fit what was expected of him.> >> > Students of Jyotisha in America are taught that the astrology of India> > is a more complete system than what has been reconstructed in more> > modern times in Western astrology. The ancient astrology of Babylon> > and Egypt were lost or made into secondary pursuits by medieval> > Christian and Muslim cultures. India, however, has continued to> > maintain its religion and culture, including astrology, from ancient> > times. Hence, the astrology of India is considered by many to be an> > older and more complete system. It is also taught by many scholars> > that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe.> >> > But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor the> > point? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive> > thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises> > from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history> > and geography. Dr. David Frawley wrote in his _Astrology of the Seers_> > that "Astrology is a good point of dialogue and interchange between> > East and West, the ancient and the modern. It links together the> > greatest diversity of cultures in the most common perceptions and> > aspirations of humanity." I feel especially in these chaotic times on> > our fragile planet that we will serve our Divine Mother more when we> > look for confluence and union rather than perpetuating a mentality of> > "us versus them/East versus West." Thank you for the discussion.> >> > Om shanti,> > Juliana

[Guest guest]

Dear Juliana ji, //> The whole point of this discussion was my> response to an earlier post by Sreenadh in which he said that certain> elements of geography were not discovered (in the Western world) until> the middle ages of Europe.

Re: geographical coordinates, I am pretty sure that these conceptswere understood in the Western world even long before Ptolemy. Forinstance, the ancient Assyrians, a Semitic tribe living in Mesopotamia(modern Iraq) from ~1100-600 BC, are said to have "invented" longitudeand latitude, which they used for navigation purposes.// Since I believe that the contribution of great civilizations like Crete etc for the knowledge base was much greater than that of the uncivilized Greeks of that time, and since great scholars like Pythagoras and Ptolemy had access to the library of Alexandria which got burned down later by the fanatics (it is said that the library burned for 6 months! 6 months, you see! How many books might have been preserved there and what amount of knowledge!) - yes the knowledge of Lat-Long might have been present in the western world prior to the middle ages itself. But if so, possibility not due to the contribution of Greeks but due to the bits of knowledge they gained from the civilizations they ruined (such as Crete and Ionian). Even the great Classics Iliad and Odyssey are not Greek contributions, but the contribution of the culture they destroyed! Of course Greek later flourished as an excellent civilization and contributed much to the world - but that is a different story. What uncivilized Greek did to the civilized Crete, the uncivilized Christian and Muslim invaders did to the civilized Greece! And this itself is the very reason for the destruction of Alexandria library; this itself is the reason for the knowledge contributed by Ptolemy and many other Greek scholars being NOT available and accepted in Europe from 4th to 14th century AD; and this uncivilized becoming civilized later is the very reason for Europeans accepting Ptolemy and Greek knowledge first and now the Indian knowledge as well after 15th century. May be I am over stating it a bit - but still it is a fact. What ever happed to Greece, the same happened to India as well. The uncivilized Aryans invaded the civilized India and destroyed and distorted its original culture. They rooted here, became civilized, their language became the best purified and systematic in the world (Sanskrit) and their divine text reflected supreme truths and the concept of oneness - the great Vedas originated! Then again came the numerous distortions to cultured Indian as Muslim Invaders and English conquerors and most of the original knowledge lost or distorted. The invaders become weak, India became independent, the ancient knowledge base revised and the Western countries became greatly civilized due to the advent of science and technology - Europe and America becoming the cultural centers. And thus the ebb and flow of cultures and knowledge continue....Love and regards,Sreenadh , "jai.ma" <jai.ma wrote:>> Hi Bhaskar et al...> > Absolutely I agree that Ptolemy made many important contributions in> astronomy, astrology, geography etc. He was evidently a genius, and> really, who would even care that he presumably made a few mistakes in> some calculations here and there. Or maybe he did not make> mistakes...maybe he concealed the truth to avoid political> persecution? Nobody knows. The whole point of this discussion was my> response to an earlier post by Sreenadh in which he said that certain> elements of geography were not discovered (in the Western world) until> the middle ages of Europe. > > Re: geographical coordinates, I am pretty sure that these concepts> were understood in the Western world even long before Ptolemy. For> instance, the ancient Assyrians, a Semitic tribe living in Mesopotamia> (modern Iraq) from ~1100-600 BC, are said to have "invented" longitude> and latitude, which they used for navigation purposes. > > Alan Leo (WF Allen or Agorel) is called the Father of Modern Western> Astrology. I read him extensively as a young teenager.I am happy you> love him, too. He emphasized character analysis rather than> prediction, which is a major area of divergence in Modern Western> versus Indian systems of astrology. Alan Leo traveled to India in the> early 1900s and studied Jyotisha. He brought some techniques back with> him, for instance some of the harmonic charts. > > Thanks!> Juliana>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sreenadh and all for illuminating us...as I said I am not a

historian, so your post has been very helpful to me...Bless you!

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Juliana ji,

> Thanks for the informative mail even though I am against some points

> you raised against Ptolemy and Arya migration. Let me quote-

> //For instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the

> Earth

> which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who

> thought he could sail West to reach Asia. //

> This must be wrong info. Ptolemy had calculated the circumference of

> Earth correctly. Like every good ancient astronomer scholar he had

> calculated the circumference of earth 'based on the place he lived' -

> this is important please not it. This means that the circumference they

> give will be true only for the latitude in which they live; they are NOT

> giving the circumference of earth at the equator (nor they mentioned

> so). If the modern scholars with a foolish view of looking at ancient

> knowledge based on current stand point and understanding, with

> pre-conceived assumptions are making errors (in this case they 'assume'

> without base the Ptolemy must be giving the circumference of earth at

> the equator; Neither Ptolemy nor anyone else said so) then who should be

> blamed? Is it Ptolemy, or the fools who look at ancient data based on

> modern understanding and tools, without ever trying to follow the path

> and steps those ancient scholars used? (Chandrahari has written an

> article on the birth place of Aryabhata, and he has conclusively proved

> in the same that almost all the ancient known astronomers whether Indian

> or Greek had calculated the circumference of earth based on their birth

> place itself. He has clarified that the same is true for Ptolemy as well

> with calculations).

> //It is also taught by many scholars

> > that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe. //

> I don't agree. The original home land Aryans is NOT India. There

much

> in common between the ancient culture of Celts, the ancient Vicca

> religion, the Iranian Avestan religion, and the Vedic religion. They are

> all of the same thread. It is Aryana which got named as Iran, it is

> said. It seems definite, and the evidences support the fact that, the

> semi cultured aryans from central Asia, Europe, or Iran have came to

> India and mingled with and destroyed to an extend the well civilized

> native culture of India which had great cities (like Mahanjadaro or

> Harappa) that could be ascribed to Saiva Agama ppl or Ancient Naga ppl.

> The Vedic Brahmin cult of India came to india from outside, but

> flourished and improved their language capabilities in India (especially

> due to the contribution of Naga scholars like Patanjali and Panini).

> The vedic cult is called Nigama and indigenous cult was called Agama

> cult (Tantric cult), to which belongs the temples and idol worship the

> natal religion and culture of India (originated by Saiva agama, Naga

> ppl). Of course it could be true that many migrated from India to

> outside - but in that case that won't be Aryans but the ppl of

> Sinddhu-Sarasvati civilization (the Mohenjadaro- Harappa people). So

> the truth should be that there was both to and fro flow; both migration

> to india of the Aryans and the migration of indigenous Indians to the

> western lands.

> //Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive

> > thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises

> > from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history

> > and geography.//

> You are absolutely right - " all knowledge arises from one source

> being, which transcends time and place/history and geography " ; well

> said! But the terminology " East-West " (NOT East vs West) has its own

> benefit when we want to classify and present info. So it is just for the

> classification purpose that the term is used; the truth as you said is -

> " all humans are one and the copiousness one and the same " . If you ask

> me - I will term all Vedas as Aryan or Western knowledge, but all the

> Tantric knowledge and even the Ionian, Crete and Meso-American knowledge

> as Eastern and Agama!!! So it is all about the perspective - so don't

> worry.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " jai.ma " <jai.ma@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Sreenadh and all...

> >

> > Again I am not a historian though I have studied a little history of

> > the Western world.

> >

> > From what little I have read, Ptolemy's text on Geography did dominate

> > the Western (Christian and Islamic) world for 1500 or so years after

> > it was written. However, it is well known that a great deal of

> > knowledge in the Western world was lost or went underground

> > during the century after Ptolemy lived, due to the many great wars,

> > the rise and fall of various civilizations, and the clash of opposing

> > cultures in the dark times of Kali Yuga.

> >

> > Though Ptolemy may have been the first in the Western world to use the

> > terms longitude and latitude, and he calculated thousands of

> > coordinates, it was later found that his work was full of errors. For

> > instance, he evidently miscalculated the circumference of the Earth

> > which later caused problems for the explorer Christopher Columbus, who

> > thought he could sail West to reach Asia.

> >

> > Ptolemy worked under certain constraints and was limited in his

> > ability to collect accurate data. Even so, he is called the Father of

> > Geography in the Western world. He knew the Earth was a sphere and it

> > is said he " invented " longitude and latitude in the Western world.

> > Nobody knows for sure where Ptolemy found the data for his work, but

> > it is assumed he worked out of the great Library of Alexandria. It is

> > true that Alexandria, where he lived, was an important trading hub.

> > One is led to believe that some cross-pollination of knowledge took

> > place here with the Eastern world.

> >

> > Historical commentators say that Ptolemy lived during a time in

> > history when it may not have been safe to expose all his truth so he

> > may have covered up some knowledge to fit what was expected of him.

> >

> > Students of Jyotisha in America are taught that the astrology of India

> > is a more complete system than what has been reconstructed in more

> > modern times in Western astrology. The ancient astrology of Babylon

> > and Egypt were lost or made into secondary pursuits by medieval

> > Christian and Muslim cultures. India, however, has continued to

> > maintain its religion and culture, including astrology, from ancient

> > times. Hence, the astrology of India is considered by many to be an

> > older and more complete system. It is also taught by many scholars

> > that the ancient Aryans came from India, not Europe.

> >

> > But my question to you, offered respectfully, is, why belabor the

> > point? Is there something to be gained from this kind of divisive

> > thinking of East versus West? Ultimately, all true knowledge arises

> > from the One Source of Being, which transcends time and place/history

> > and geography. Dr. David Frawley wrote in his _Astrology of the Seers_

> > that " Astrology is a good point of dialogue and interchange between

> > East and West, the ancient and the modern. It links together the

> > greatest diversity of cultures in the most common perceptions and

> > aspirations of humanity. " I feel especially in these chaotic times on

> > our fragile planet that we will serve our Divine Mother more when we

> > look for confluence and union rather than perpetuating a mentality of

> > " us versus them/East versus West. " Thank you for the discussion.

> >

> > Om shanti,

> > Juliana

> >

> > , " Sreenadh "

> > sreesog@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear All,

> > > Juliana ji provided me with the following info about Ptolemy's

> > > contribution to the concept of Latitude and Longitude.

> > > =============

> > > Hi Sreenadh....I am not a historian but these links may offer some

> > > illumination on the topic of Ptolemy and his work with Geography:

> > >

> >

>

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptolem\

> \

> > > y_geo.html

> > >

> >

>

<http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\

> \

> > > my_geo.html>

> > >

> > >

> >

>

<http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/Ptole\

> \

> > > my_geo.html> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia

> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia> (Ptolemy)

> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia_> Best,

> > > Juliana

> > > =============

> > > Both the links are interesting and informative. It definitely seems

> > > that Ptolemy must have dome some work on the subject. But the

> following

> > > lines definitely raise our eyebrows as well -

> > >

> > > //Ptolemy, who gave Greek astronomy its final form in the second

> century

> > > A.D., did the same--and more--for geography and cartography. His

> > > massive work on the subject, which summed up and criticized the work

> of

> > > earlier writers, offered instruction in laying out maps by three

> > > different methods of projection, provided coordinates for some eight

> > > thousand places, and treated such basic concepts as geographical

> > > latitude and longitude. In Byzantium, in the thirteenth century,

> > > Ptolemic maps were reconstructed and attached to Greek manuscripts

> of

> > > the text. And in the fifteenth century, a Latin translation of this

> > > text, with maps, proved a sensation in the world of the book. A best

> > > seller both in the age of luxurious manuscripts and in that of

> print,

> > > Ptolemy's " Geography " became immensely influential. Columbus-- one

> of

> > > its many readers--found inspiration in Ptolemy's exaggerated value

> for

> > > the size of Asia for his own fateful journey to the west. //

> > > * If Ptolemy's work done in 2nd century AD was 'available' then why

> > > it got reconstructed in 13th century?!!

> > > * If Ptolemy's text 'was not available' how some one assumed that it

> > > lists the Lat-Long (?) of 8000 Places?

> > > Definitely a lost book of 2nd century AD getting re-constructed in

> > > getting presented to the world much later in 13th century is really

> > > sensational - or was it not? Is not there a possibility of a fraud

> > > involved?

> > > The wikipedia link provides the info that -

> > > * //Arabic writer al-Mas'udi, while writing around 956, mentioned a

> > > colored map of the Geography which had 4530 cities and over 200

> > > mountains. // It is interesting the even the 10th century Arabic

> writer

> > > finds only 4530 cities in the MAP and NOT the possibly exagirated

> number

> > > 8000 places. Further the point to be noted is that it was a MAP and

> NOT

> > > a list of cities with their longitude and latitudes.

> > > * Now comming to the Longitude-Latitude concept the wikipedia link

> > > states as follows - //He assigned coordinates to all the places and

> > > geographic features he knew, in a grid that spanned the globe.

> Latitude

> > > was measured from the equator, as it is today, but Ptolemy preferred

> to

> > > express it as the length of the longest day rather than degrees of

> arc

> > > (the length of the midsummer day increases from 12h to 24h as one

> goes

> > > from the equator to the polar circle). He put the meridian of 0

> > > longitude at the most western land he knew, the Canary Islands. //

> > > Please note the point - " but Ptolemy preferred to express it as the

> > > length of the longest day rather than degrees of arc " . Then was it

> > > really the concpet of Longitude-Latitude itself or something else?

> Any

> > > way the follow info about his prime meridian is interesting - //He

> put

> > > the meridian of 0 longitude at the most western land he knew, the

> Canary

> > > Islands.//

> > > * Around BC 300 Alexander came to India. This interaction with

> > India

> > > must have enriched the understanding of Greeks about ancient indian

> > > knowledge and Indians about the Greek Knowledge. Is it not possible

> > > that Ptolemy was expressing this Ancient Indian knowledege on

> > > Latitude-Longitude he acquired from ancient indian texts? [in the

> > > India-Greece knowledge transaction due to Paitagorase's visit to

> India

> > > and Alaxander's attack - Greece seems to be rather on the recieving

> end

> > > as far as knowledge transaction is concered]

> > > Some points to ponder. (Some may argue that every knowledge came

> > > from East to West, some may argue that every knowledge came from

> West to

> > > east - both speak half truths, or half lies!)

> > > Any way, let other members comment in support of or against and let

> > > our understanding about knowledge and histroy improve!

> > > The following links also could be interest while discussing this

> > > subject -

> > > * Ptolomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy

> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy>

> > > * History of Geodesy:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy

> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy>

> > > Thanks to Juliana ji for providing the info.

> > > OK. I should not forget to provide a link to the text (i.e.

> > Ptolemy's

> > > Geography as it is available now).

> > > 1) Ptolemy's Geography:

> > >

> >

>

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pto\

> \

> > > lemy/home.html

> > >

> >

>

<http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Pt\

> \

> > > olemy/home.html>

> > > 2) Aubrey Diller's edition of Ptolemy's Geography (provided

> > > by the International Journal of Scientific History) :

> > > http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm

> > > <http://www.dioi.org/diller8/diller8.htm>

> > > Love and regards,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Juliana ji,

> > > > // Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and geographer

> > > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic in

> > > > > depth. //

> > > > Could be - but we need to check what he said and what not; What

> was

> > > > his understanding (and limitation of knowledge) about this subject

> and

> > > > what is that is special in Indian understanding. What we need to

> > > > ponder is who, when and where this system might have originated,

> and

> > > who

> > > > all might have contributed to enriching this system.

> > > > For example - In numerous ancient indian texts we can find the

> > > words

> > > > such as 'Desantara " (distance between longitudes) or Charardha

> > > > (referring to the major latitude lines), but in Surya sidddhanta

> we

> > > find

> > > > the words " Lambamsa " (meaning, Vertical lines; refers to

> longitude)

> > > and

> > > > " Akshamsa " (meaning axial or horizontal lines; referring to

> Latitude).

> > > > This clear use of terminology indicates that the full fledged

> system

> > > of

> > > > Longitude-Latitude was in place by the time of Surya Siddhanta. It

> is

> > > > also important to note that during that time, the Longitudinal

> line

> > > > passing through Ujjain (a city near Rajastan-MP state border in

> > > Central

> > > > India) was considered as Prime Meridian. The Equatorial line was

> > > > supposed to pass through 4 vertical cardinal points named Lanka

> (Near

> > > > current Srilanka), Siddhapura, Ketumala (Near current Guatimala

> near

> > > > America), Romaka.

> > > > The astronomical methods for calculating Lambamsa-Akshamsa or

> > > > Charardha-Desantara must have been well known. (I need to do some

> > > study

> > > > to get correct understanding).

> > > > I request you to quote the info and statements Ptolemy provide

> > > about

> > > > this concept of Longitude-Latitude (if available). The following

> > > > statement of yours put me in doubt -

> > > > //He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and

> > > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more " modern " theories,

> and

> > > he

> > > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude.

> However,

> > > much

> > > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark

> Ages.//

> > > > Do you mean to say that Ptolemy’s statements on

> > > > Longitude-Latitude are available or not? If it is not available

> and

> > > also

> > > > reference to it is not available (seems to be so from your

> statement -

> > > > However, much of this material probably went into hiding during

> the

> > > > Dark Ages) how you assume that " Ptolemy, treated this topic in

> depth " .

> > > I

> > > > hope some of his statements on the same would be available,

> otherwise

> > > > how can you say so?! So let us look for the same, if it is

> available.

> > > > Let us look into this subject based on the available info, whether

> > > > from east or from west.

> > > >

> > > > Note: I made a typo in my previous mail. The text Surya Siddhanta

> (as

> > > > available today) is not yet dated, and any info that helps to date

> > > this

> > > > text is not available in it. This text was in existance prior to

> 5th

> > > > century (since Mihira of 5th century AD quotes it) for sure. So

> please

> > > > read the line " even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back

> to

> > > > 'prior to BC 5th century') " as " even in Ancient Surya Siddhanta

> (which

> > > > dates back to 'prior to AD 5th century') " . Ancient Surya siddhanta

> is

> > > a

> > > > very old text and astronomical tradition; it cannot be dated

> correctly

> > > > in the absense of datable info not being provided by text. The

> > > > statement 'this text dates PRIOR to 5th century AD' does not in

> any

> > > way

> > > > mean that it originated in 3rd or 4th century. It could be a

> tradition

> > > > which a much ancient history.

> > > > Love and regards,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > > , " jai.ma " jai.ma@

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello Sreenadh and All...

> > > > >

> > > > > I have enjoyed the posts here for some time and today this one

> in

> > > > > particular prompted me to respond. Whereas I certainly agree

> that

> > > " as

> > > > > far as the history of astronomical and geographical concepts are

> > > > > concerned, India deserves more credit " ...than it has received, I

> am

> > > > > not sure of the accuracy of your statement that the geographical

> > > > > coordinate system is relatively new to the Western world. From

> what

> > > I

> > > > > have read, Ptolemy, who was an influential astronomer and

> geographer

> > > > > in the 2nd century AD in Alexandria, Egypt, treated this topic

> in

> > > > > depth. He not only expanded on ancient ideas about geography and

> > > > > astronomy, but also propounded his own more " modern " theories,

> and

> > > he

> > > > > actually wrote quite a bit about latitude and longitude.

> However,

> > > much

> > > > > of this material probably went into hiding during the Dark Ages.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best,

> > > > > Juliana S.

> > > > > Kamuela, Hawaii

> > > > >

> > > > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear All,

> > > > > > I was just searching about the history of - the concept

> > > > > 'Longitude and

> > > > > > Latitude'. I was wonder struck on knowing that this concpet is

> > > > totally

> > > > > > NEW to the western world and that prior to 15th century

> Amerigo

> > > > Vespucci

> > > > > > and 17th century Galileo and Halley they didn't had much

> awareness

> > > > about

> > > > > > this concept - and also that even by this period their

> > > understanding

> > > > of

> > > > > > the Longitude-Latitude co-ordinate system was very limited!!!

> > > > > > Looking back to Indian astronomical history we find that, even

> in

> > > > > > Ancient Surya Siddhanta (which dates back to " prior to BC 5th

> > > > century " )

> > > > > > Longitude is termed " Lambamsa " and Latitude is termed

> " Akshamsa " .

> > > We

> > > > see

> > > > > > that similar to the words Akshamsa-Lambamsa; the words

> > > > > > " Charardha-Desandara " was also of popular use in astronomical

> > > > > > literature- whether the author be Aryabhata or Varaha Mihira

> of

> > > 6th

> > > > > > century BC. Desandara menas the distance (difference) between

> two

> > > > > > specific longitudes; the distance between two places. Ancient

> > > > Siddhantas

> > > > > > (astronomical texts), and Puranas (ancient texts with collects

> and

> > > > > > presents ancient knowledge in the form of story telling)

> > > mention/use

> > > > > > these words to refer to locations. It becomes well evident

> that

> > > the

> > > > > > concept of Longitude-Latitude originated in India!

> > > > > > It seems that we should improve our understanding about the

> > > > > history of

> > > > > > origin of this concept - as far as the history of astronomical

> and

> > > > > > geographical concepts are concerned India deserves more credit

> > > that

> > > > it

> > > > > > is ascribed with!

> > > > > > Love and regards,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>