Fwd: Is Traditional dating only a antiquity frenzy?

[Guest guest]

---------- Forwarded message ----------kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09

Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 10:34 PMIs Traditional dating only a " antiquity frenzy " ? Dear all, Recently, one western Scholar, who fancies dating Rgveda as late as possible, said the traditional dating a la Sethna is " antiquity frenzy "

The present accepted dating of Indian History mostly flows from identification of Sandrocottus with Chandragupta Maurya. But, independent of this, the Rg Veda and other scriptures are dated very late, if possible be, to 900 bce and Brahmanas to somewhere just before the accepted date of Buddha.

Inspite of hectic activity and onset of most modern technology, you have not seen too much of radical texts being written in the last 200 years, inspite of the rise of new sciences such as Nuclear Physics, Electronics, Bio Technology and so on in sciences and Linguistics, sociology and Psychology in Socios. I am not talking of the volumes but the content.

If this be the case, I can not see how it is possible that not only a huge corpus of Texts were authored, spread all over Ancient India and beyond , recesioned(spell check) and finally arranged in merely 500 years.

Rgveda itself is a layered document. It has grown over hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. Then it is followed by several other scirptures, most of them not available to us today. Even the texts such as those of Buddhists, Jains, Secular Nyaya Sastras must have taken centuries to grow, especially since we know scores of authors, distanced by hundreds of kilometers across the country, referring to the earlier authors and writing volumes of follow up texts or commentaries. All these are naturally to be placed later to the Indian Scriptures and obviously, it must have taken several centuries to write these texts.

Coming to historical age of Ancient India, there are more confusions than are answered. Not a single king is correctly identified without arriving at a contradiction. For eg., I can go on and on about the dating of Satavahanas - they being mentioned in several places without being dates. So little said about them. So long as you try to connect them to the Puranic lists, you are always confused, leading you to say the puranic lists are contrived and " muddled' But the truth is you are trying to fix Mahatma Gandhi into the dates of Rahul Gandhi, just because the names look similiar.

If the future historians work out just as we are doing today, I won;'t be surprized if they identify Rahul Gandhi with Rajiv Gandhi , just as they did Sandrokryptos with Sandrocottus!!!!!The mainstream thinkers can not write a single line against the traditional chronology, issue based. Sweepstake statements such as this is trash or antiquity frenzy or unsubstantiaed all remain what they are - genralized, biased and yes, unsubstantiated!

best regards, Kishore patnaik

[Guest guest]

IndiaArchaeology , " jyotirved " <jyotirved

wrote:

 

 

 

 

Dear Shri Venkata Krishnan-ji,

 

 

Namaskar

 

 

" Vedic astrology " - the greatest fraud on the

Vedas

 

 

The following is the speech/article I was talking about. It was delivered

in September 2006 at Rotary Club, West Delhi. It appeared later as an

article in the souvenir of the seminar on " Vedic astronomy &

Cosmology " -December 2006. I am sure you will find it interesting and shall

await your views.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

A K Kaul

 

 

 

 

 

Om tat sat brahmarpanamastu!

 

 

Om Brahmanandam Parama sukhadam kevalam gyan moortim, dwandvateetam gagana

sadrisham tat-tvam asyadi lakshyam ekam

nityam vimalam achalamsarva dhee sakshi bhootam, bhavateetam triguna

rahitam

shree gurum tam namami

 

 

" Vedic Astrology " - the greatest fraud on the Vedas!

 

 

Dear friends. Good evening to everybody!

 

I feel highly honoured to have been invited by Shri Ajay Bhasin for

sharing

my views about astrology and related topics with respected personalities

assembled here. As most of us already know, we call these predictive

gimmicks as " Vedic astrology " these days.

 

 

 

When I was asked by Shri Bhasin about the heading of my talk, I had

thought

of making it as " Vedic Astrology - the greatest fraud on the Vedas " . On

second thoughts, fearing that it would be too explosive a heading, I

made it

a sugar coated bitter pill by changing it to " Do we celebrate our

festivals

on correct days? " .

 

 

 

Well, actually, both i.e., the fraud known as " Vedic astrology " and " our

celebrating all our festivals on wrong days " are inter-related.

 

Let me start with " Vedic astrology " - as to why I call it a fraud!

 

There is hardly anyone in India, who does not want to know as to when his

" sade-sati " will start or end or as to which Dasha-antardasha he is

running

and when that will end etc. etc. even if he does not know ABC of jyotisha.

I have gone through all those pangs myself and made a thorough study

of all

the astrological works besides a lot of astronomical books! I studied

Western system of astrology also and had become a sort of famous

astrologer,

though my predictions were as correct as anybody else's i.e. hardly 50%.

However, this is a secret that no " jyotishi " shares with anybody -- that

his/her predictions are hardly more correct than fifty per cent, whatever

logic or Ayanamsha he/she may use! When I analyzed the reasons for such a

dismal rate of success, the conclusions were startling! And I am keeping

those very conclusions before you!

 

 

 

Before proceeding further, I must, however, say something about myself

since

you are well within your rights to ask me as to what " qualifications "

I have

to demolish astrology that is being practised over the last several

centuries, nay even millennia!

 

 

 

My credentials Though I am not laying any claims to being a scholar,

however, I have actually studied all the four Vedas in original " archaic "

Sanskrit with their different " Bhashyas " , besides the various Brahmanas

like Shatapatha, Aitreya, Tatiriya etc. etc. I have studied, (in original

Sanskrit!) about two hundred all the important Upanishads as well! I have

also gone through both the epics viz. the Valmiki Ramayana and the

Mahabharata --- in Sanskrit and from cover to cover, besides Adhyatma

Ramayana, Ramacharitamanasa etc. etc.! There is hardly any Purana whether

the Bhagavata, Shivapurana, Vishnu, Narada, Devi, Varaha, Matsya and

Vishnudharmotara etc. etc. that I have not gone through in original

Sanskrit. I have also studied exhaustively all the ancient astronomical

works like the Vedanga Jyotisha, Panchasidhantika, Surya Sidhanta, Arya

Bhati, Sidhanta Shiromani etc. etc. To crown it all, I was not a born

renegade against the established traditions. On the other hand, I was

initially " hypnotized " by " Vedic astrology " and " panchangas " myself and

there is hardly any " text-book " of astrology either in Sanskrit or Urdu or

English or Hindi that I have not studied with due reverence, as if I was

studying the Vedas!

 

 

 

Having established my credentials thus, I CAN DECLARE IT WITHOUT ANY

HESITATION AND WITH ALL THE EMPHASIS AT MY COMMAND, THAT THERE IS

ABSOLUTELY NO PREDICTIVE ASTROLOGY IN ANY OF THE VEDAS, UPANISHADAS OR

BRAHMANAS. There are, however, some references to some odd types of

predictions in some of the Puranas and the epics and therefore calling

it as

really a post-Vedic astrology is more correct. There is a rider there

also,

and that is that according to these scriptures, Makara Sankranti i.e.

Pongal

is nothing but a synonym of Uttarayana (the shortest day of the year) i.e.

Winter Solstice and as everybody knows, it can take place these days

only on

or around December 21 every year. Thus the Uttarayana-cum-Makar Sankranti

that we are celebrating now-a-days on January 14 is absolutely wrong and

does not have any authority from any shastra or even modern astronomy.

Similarly, the Vaishakhi that is being celebrated on April 14 or so

also is

wrong since Mesha Sankranti is nothing but Vishuva (Vernal Equinox) or

Vasant Sampat and it cannot take place on any day other than March 21/22,

when the day and night are equal. Actually these Makara etc.

sankrantis were

known as Tapah etc. months during the Vedic period as there are no

rashis in

the Vedas but just six seasons and Madhu, Madhava etc. twelve months. As

such, we are celebrating all our fasts, fairs and muhurtas on wrong

days --

thanks to " Vedic astrologers " and their " Vedic astrology " .

 

 

 

The first and foremost thing I learnt from our shastras is that no system

of predictions has any sanction either from the Vedas or even Puranas

least of all our dharmashastras etc. since all our shastras admonish

us from

consulting " nakshatra jeevis " so much so that the Manusmriti calls these

nakshatrasoochis as outcastes and not fit to sit in any sabha of learned

people.

 

Those who can foresee our future do not reveal it to us beforehand:

 

All the Ramayanas, whether Valmiki or Adhyatma or Ramacharitamanasa etc.

etc. say that before deciding about the coronation of Bhagwan Rama,

Dashratha wanted his guru Vasishtha to confirm the suitable muhurta

for that

function. It was on the advice of Vasishtha Muni that Dasharatha decided

to anoint Rama as the Yuvraja the very next day, as it was " Tishya " i.e.

Pushya nakshata then. From this anecdote, it is clear that either

Vasishtha

Muni did not know as to what was going to happen to Dasharatha by

declaring

Bhagwan Rama as a crown-prince or Vasishtha kept quiet deliberately

since he

did not want to interfere in the divine dispensation!

 

 

 

Obviously, being the son of Brahmaji and a highly exalted yogi as well

as a

jnyani, Vasishtha-muni could peep into past as well as future. It means

that even if some exalted souls can foresee as to what is going to happen,

they do not reveal our " bhavishya " before hand, unlike some of the

astrologers of today, who masquerade as " Parasharas " and " Vamadevas "

to tell

us even our past and future janmas just by glancing at our birth-charts,

even if those charts are wrong!

 

 

 

The Gita is said to be the gist of all our shastras. When Arjuna

expressed

his doubt by saying naitadvidmah katarnno gareeyo, yadva jayema yadi va no

jayeyuh " I do not know what is good for me nor do I know whether we

will win

or the Kauravas will win the war " , Bhagwan Krishna neither asked him to

consult some soothsayer nor did He tell him to wear some ruby! He just

advised Arjuna " hato va prapsyasi swargam jitva va bokshyase maheem " i.e.

" You must fight. If you get killed in the war, you will go to the heavens

and if you win it you will be the lord of the whole world " .

 

Thus all it boils down to is the fact that those who know (including Lord

Krishna Himself!) as to what is going to happen and when do not

divulge such

" secrets " before hand to us.

 

 

 

Remedial measures are a farce: Almost all the jyotishis suggest one or the

other remedial measure to their clients, and mostly these are gems like

diamond or ruby or sapphire etc. etc. What is surprising is that we have

become so obsessed with Jyotish that we forget the entire itihasa of our

past!

 

(i) If these gems are that efficacious, why was then Dasharatha not

suggested some " ruby " or " coral " to ward off the evil Dasha that was going

to kill him when Rama would leave for the forests? Well, because our

Rishis

did not believe in such gimmicks at all!

 

(ii) Bhagwan Krishna was born in a prison --- I wonder why He could not

use some " sapphire " to be born in a palace!

 

(iii) Vasudeva and Devaki---the parents of Bhagwan Krishna--- were in

chains when He was born! It is said that Lord Krishna was a complete - 16

kala sampoorna --- divine incarnation of Vishnu and was thus really

Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient! But in spite of His Omniscience,

Omnipotence and Omnipresence, Lord Krishna could not relieve the

miseries of

his parents, Vasudeva and Devaki, who had to remain in chains till Krishna

killed Kansa!

 

What does it demonstrate? Just the fact that if the Omniscient,

Omnipresent

and Omnipotent Krishna could not relieve the miseries of His own father or

mother before the appointed time, how can a ruby or a sapphire---or some

Mangala or Shani yagya--- remove all our miseries or fulfil all our

ambitions? Obviously, we are being taken for a ride by such Jyotishis!

 

iv) Then not in the distant past, Smti Indira Gandhi would run after

astrologers for knowing her future. She wore a rare and original ekamukhi

rudraksha, which only either the Maharaja of Nepal had or she was wearing!

It is said that some top-notch jyotishis had suggested that rudraksha to

her! Ironically, both the King of Nepal as well Mrs. Indira Gandhi were

assassinated " by the people " they " had trusted " ----ekamukhi rudraksha not

withstanding! What does it prove? That we should not be hoodwinked by

soothsayers!

 

v) Then again a well known Tantrik of yore---highly respected by the then

PM--- is out on bail, not by dint of his " Tantra-Kriya " but because of

some

legal loopholes in FERA!

Similarly, Dhirendra Brahmachari, another high profile " Tantrik " , met with

an accident in the plane he was flying himself! If he could not see

his own

death looming large how could he forewarn others!

 

 

What does that prove? Obviously, it warns us against relying on any

soothsayers, especially if they call themselves " Vedic Jyotishis "

since they

are taking us for a ride literally.

 

Kalasarpa Dosha -- a non-existent fear psychosis: These days we hear

a lot

about Kalasarpa Dosha! It is said to be present in any horoscope if

all the

planets are between Rahu and Ketu! My God! What a humbug! Rahu and Ketu

are actually nodes of the Moon! That means they are just mathematical

points without any dimensions ---therefore without any physical existence

whatsoever! So according to " Vedic astrologers " even such " non-existent "

phenomena can make our lives miserable for which we must do some upay! Do

you need any other proofs for the jugglery that these cheats are indulging

in?

 

THE ONLY EFFECTIVE REMEDY, or UPAY, THEREFORE, IS THAT WE MUST

REMEMBER HIM,

THE ALMIGHTY, EVERY MOMENT OF OUR LIVES AND LEAVE EVERY THING TO HIS

DIVINE

WILL!.

 

 

 

Fake Brighu Samhitas and Parasharis:

 

We find a Brighu Samhita or a nadi Jyotishi or Aruna Samhita etc. in every

Muhalla these days! However, there is no mention in any of the Puranas or

shastras that any Rishi like Vasishtha or Garga or Brighu etc. have ever

written any books on predictive astrology. The Vishnu Purana by Parashara

is full of astronomical references ---and that also sayana i.e. the

seasonal year when Mesha sankranti is another name of Spring Equinox

and so

on, but we do not find any mention of any Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra

there! Obviously, it is the worst concoction that can ever be had,

and may

be that is why such a Parashari is the bible of " Vedic astrologers "

 

 

India has gone downhill because of astrology and astrologers: In India, we

have started going downhill ever since our rulers started running after

Jyotishis. In ancient days, during the time of the Mahabharata, it was a

dharma yudha that we had to fight against our own Duryodhanas but ever

since

the advent of astrology almost simultaneously with the invasion of

Alexander

the Great, and then the " Yavana Jatakam " of Sphujidwaja and the Surya

Sidhanta of Maya the Yavana (mlechha!), we had to fight outsiders! The

more the foreigners invaded us the more our rulers, instead of making a

united effort against the invaders, started consulting soothsayers

whom they

called Rajajyotishis!

 

 

 

Varahamihira the worst culprit:

 

The maximum credit for creating such a fear psychosis of omens and ghosts

and ghouls and storms and even clouds goes to Varahamihira of 5th

century

AD through his Brihat Samita and Brihat Jatakam and Panchasidhantika!

Before venturing into the battlefield, our monarchs would ask their

soothsayers to prepare " narpati jaya charya " and consult Brihat

Samhita etc.

to see whether the " ketuchara " was favourable at that time or not! No

wonder with such a preliminary and hopeless knowledge of astronomical

facts,

we were being pushed back into dark ages by Varahamihira and his

followers!

 

 

 

Our historical records are witness to the fact that we were

vanquished in

every battle, whether it was with Alexander the Great or Muhamud of

Gazni or

Chengiz Khan or Nadir Shah or the Moguls or finally the East India

Company,

thanks to the dependence of our monarchs on soothsayers (Rajajyotishis,

huh!) instead of the principles of war strategy and statecraft as

adumbrated

by the Vedas, the Manu and even Chanakya, who chided kings for consulting

soothsayers!

 

 

BJP the latest example:

 

The fate of the BJP has not been any better than that of our earlier

monarchs by depending more on their " Vedic Jyotishis " who were responsible

for getting " Vedic Jyotisha (sic!) " prescribed in Indian Universities! It

is that very move that boomeranged on the party and even the " Minister of

astrology " did not win his own parliamentary seat from Allahabad, let

alone

being the Union Minister again. Do you need any other proofs of the fact

that these " Vedic Jyotishis " will make you lose your seat of power well

before the appointed day just by making you advance your elections?

 

 

 

If we continue to follow the trend of our " monarchs " of having blind

faith

in our soothsayers, then sooner than later we will become Babylon of

yesteryears, which is known as Iraq today!

 

 

 

Kashmiri Pandits were the worst affected by their blind faith in

Jyotishis:

 

Another reason for my revolt against the so called " Vedic astrology " is

that as a Kashmiri Pandit, I have more to blame panchanga makers and

soothsayers and their predictive gimmicks than anything or anybody else

since they never forewarned us about any calamities that were going to

befall us! On the other hand, just to prove their astrological gimmicks,

they just made ---and are still making --- us celebrate all our festivals,

including Mahashivaratri, Vasanti Navratras, Ramanavami, Janmashtami and

Sharadiya navratras etc. on wrong days. It is these very jyotishis,

whom we

had treated as our friends, philosophers and guides, who are

responsible for

our downfall as Kahsmiri Pandits, since they proved neither our

friends, nor

philosophers least of all our guides! These Panchanga

makers/jyotishis were

the first to flee from Kashmir in 1990--- like the king Hari Singh at the

time of Pakistani raid in 1948--- since they had already made their

alternate homes in safer places like Jammu and Delhi. Those Jyotishis

just proved to be Shylocks, who were only interested in their Pound of

flesh

by way of Dakshinas for janmapatris and matching of horoscopes -- all

cheating and nothing else!

 

 

 

These soothsayers have such a hypnotic grip on us that initially even

I was

brain washed to believe that the Vedas had nothing else to do excepting

teaching us predictive astrology! I was so convinced that it appeared

that

even the principle of Secondary Progressions must have been exported from

India to Western countries as the principle of " A day equals a year " was

mentioned in our Vedas! But thank God, I woke up to the situation and

could

see through their tricks.

 

There are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis in the Vedas:

 

Leave alone predictive gimmicks, actually there are neither rashis like

Mesha, Vrisha etc. nor planets like Mangal, Shani etc. in the Vedas,

Upanishads, Brahmanas etc. Similarly, the Vedanga Jyotisha, the first

indigenous astronomical work of 14th century BCE, just tells us only as to

how to calculate tithi, nakshatra and Uttarayana-cum-Tapah-cum Magha etc.

months. It does not list any Mesha etc. rashis nor any planets like

Mangal,

Budha etc. Same is the case with Yajur Jyotisha of about 11th century BCE

and later Atharva Jyotisha of about 5th century BCE, which does not

have any

Rashis though it talks of planets. As such, it is really a fraud on the

Vedas being played by some charlatans to call any predictive gimmicks as

Vedic astrology and hail themselves as " Vedic Jyotishis " . It is a crime

under " The Consumer Protection Act " as it is a misrepresentation of

facts to

a client and is thus a deficiency in service.

 

 

 

Our predictions in the past also could never have been correct:

 

It is said that over the past about 2000 years, our ancestors like

Varahamihira or his son Prithuyashas etc., could make marvellously correct

predictions. THAT IS NOTHING BUT HOGWASH! Let us see how: prior to the

advent of scientific astronomy into India, i.e. about a couple of

centuries

back, panchangas were based on astronomical works like the Surya

Sidhanta or

Aryabhati or Sidhanta Shirmoani etc. etc. I have prepared a software

called

" Mahesh " . It calculates, apart from the actual tithi, nakshatra, yoga,

karna etc., the mean longitudes of all the planets from 10000 BCE to 12030

AD i.e. for more than 22,000 years as per the Surya Sidhanta, Aryabhati or

Sidhanta Shiromani etc. besides comparing them with the longitudes as per

modern astronomy. Anybody can download it freely from my discussion forum

 

HinduCalendar

 

Unfortunately for these jyotishis, we find that the very fundamental

arguments of these sidahntas like the Surya Sidhanta, the Aryabhati, the

Sidhanta Shiromani etc. etc. are absolutely wrong! .

 

That naturally means that any panchanga based on them would also be wrong,

with the result that any horoscope prepared on the basis of those

panchangas

could never be correct. Thus it is impossible for any astrological

predictions to have been correct in the past! As such, it is all like the

famous couplet of Ghalib " yoon to hai hamko janat ki haqeeqat maloom

lekin; dil ke bahlane ko Ghalib yeh khayal achha hai "

 

 

 

Astrology cannot be a science Predictive astrology is supposed to be a

" science " ! What a preposterous statement! When the data on which

predictions were based or are based these days are not correct, how

can the

results be correct and how can we call it a science at all?

 

 

 

Stars do not affect us:

 

It is said that stars affect us! It appears either these astrologers

have

gone honkers themselves or they suppose that the whole world has

really gone

mad! Let us see how:

I am a puny human being on this small planet called earth. The sun is

hundreds of thousands of times larger than the earth! And there are other

stars of our nakshatra/rashichakra that are supposed to affect me

individually as per the Dasha-Bhukti that is running in my horoscope!

However, this fantastic statement has no leg to stand upon since the

nearest

star of that Rashichakra is Shravana! And do you know its distance

from me?

It is seventeen light years! And it is several times larger than our sun!

In other words, if that star wants i.e. Shravana wants to " affect " me

individually, it will take it at least seventeen years to do so even

if that

" effect " travels at the speed of light! And by then, my Rahu or Shani or

whatever Dasha it may be must have been over! Then how can such a star

which

is trillions of times larger than me send its rays in a concentrated form

just to haunt me at a particular point of time! Can you imagine what type

of laughing stocks we are making of ourselves by believing in such hocus

pocus!

Similarly, the next nearest star of our Rashichakra is Swati ! It is away

by 26 light years from me

 

and is again several times larger than our sun!!

 

It thus defies imagination as to how we can call astrology a science

or how

it can be said that the " Stars affect us " .

 

 

 

Patri Melapak (Horoscope Matching) is not warranted by shastras nor

astrology books:

 

Now coming to the fad called Patri Melapak i.e. horoscope matching!

This

fad is the rage of the day! You will be surprised to know that none of our

shastras, whether the Manusmriti or the Ramayana or the Mahabharata, leave

alone the Vedas, have anything to do with Patri Melapak even by

mistake! We

do not find any instances that any Vedic Rishi was addicted to such a fad,

since may be then most of them would still have been looking for a

" suitable

Patri " for melapak! Not to speak of Dharma shastras, there is no

mention of

this type of a malady in any of the astrology books like the so called

Parashari, or Mansagari or Phala Deepika or Jataka Parijata or any other

work! It appears to be a creation of the jyotishis of over the last one

hundred years or so. Aleberuni, who visited India in 1030 AD and recorded

quite faithfully all his experiences about Jyotisha and other things in

India also has not mentioned anything of any " Melapak " in his work!

 

" All India Calendar Reform Committee " :

 

Summing up, as we have just seen, not only are we subjected to

non-existent

fear psychosis like Kalasarpa Dosha and Patri Melapak etc. but we are

compelled to celebrate all our festivals on worng days. There are

quite

a few people who agree with my point of view that these days we are

celebrating Pitra Amavasya on the day of Dipavali and marriages during

Pitra-Paksha! Similarly, we never celebrate Makar Sankranti on

correct days

i.e. December 21/22 but we celebrate it on January 14. We also celebrate

Vaishakhi on April 14 instead of the day of Spring Equinox i.e., March

21 or

so. This has been all because of the so called " Vedic astrology "

 

To put our festivals back on the right track, I made quite a few

representations to the Hon'ble President of India, the Prime Minister of

India, various ministries besides the Positional Astronomy Centre at

Calcutta, who publish our Rashtriya Panchanga. I also made similar

representations to all the reverred Shankaracharyas of all the six

peethas,

besides other saints and Mahatmas, but sorry to say, there has been

absolutely no response from any quarter!

 

We have now formed an " All India Calendar Reform Committee " and are

enrolling members for the same. Those interested can log on to

HinduCalendar for entering into discussions

regarding the same. You can also get a list of correct dates of festivals

for 2006 and 2007 from that forum. As an alternative, you can get in touch

with me whenever you want to for any further clarifications.

 

Thank you very much for listening to this " exhortation " against " Vedic

astrology " and the efforts I am making to streamline our calendars.

Om tat sat brahmarpanam astu

 

Avtar Krishen Kaul

 

President

 

All India Calendar Reform Committee

 

H. No. 5, MIG, 00-A,

 

Sector-2, Avantika, Rohini, Delhi-110085.

 

Email:jyotirved; a_krishen; Tel. 011-27516483

 

--- End forwarded message ---