Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 True. It does raise ethical questions.But overzealousness may also lead to restrictions in actions & research. As in the west where showing affection to small children sometimes makes people suspiscious. What is required is that modern medicine also understand the limits of making the Human body survive. The tretment should be holistic, but research is just pushing the frontiers. These observations are based on certain cases where I have seen patients in ICU's living on life support systems with more than 5 pipes in their body. I have also seen their bodies burn in the crematorium, with different coloured flames ( chemical ) coming up. --- On Tue, 19/8/08, Bhaskar <rajiventerprises wrote: Bhaskar <rajiventerprises Child mortality - A new disclosure. Tuesday, 19 August, 2008, 7:38 PM Child mortality - new disclosure. 49 Babies have died during clinical trials at the AIIMS , during the last 2 1/2 years , the reply to a RTI has revealed. They conducted 42 sets of trials on 4142 babies , ( 2728 of thembelow the age of 1 ) since Jan 1st 2006. comment by a NGO Owner- The unquestionable ease with which clinical trials can be conducted in India makes international agencies first test their products on the Indian population. Clinical Trial - definition Clinical trials are research studies that test how well new medical; formulations work on people. It attempts to find better ways to prevent and treat a disease. Full Forms AIIMS= All India Institute of Medical Sciences RTI = Right to Information act. My comments - This is actually a real risk, which I have noticed in the 5 star Hospital ICU's too.There the bigger aged patients are subjected to such trials. I may be wrong there, but the above report is for sure, right. When the big Hospitals can do this , then why cant the small nursing homes also do this on receipt of some monetary considerations ? Well, this does not mean we are pointing fingers at anybody, but just generalising. Ethics has become a rare commodity now, in Medical science practitioners. In such cases which chemical caused what, on aministerin of what, in how much doses, only God the Doctor knows, and the astrologer can never come to an conclusion of the real cause of the chemical or medicl setback which was the cause, since we are not in Medical field and not versant with their vast terminology. This is strictly the job of the Doctor. Best wishes, Bhaskaran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Dear Chiranjivji, Yes I know from first hand experience what is happenning in ICU's. My father was admitted in Jaslok hospital for 4 months, and 3 months he was in ICU, and 2-3 days on the ventilator, and almost 4 -6 weeks with pipes hanging from all over his body for the fluids, and it was a horrible experience, though the Doctors were the best and really good, but we have seen other patients in the same room who breathed their last. I was sleeping on the top floor ( meant for the close relatives of those patients in ICU) all these months there , with several visits daily to the ICU, and intermingling with the staff and listening to what they were saying, whispering etc....... so know a good deal, but do not wish to elaborate, for I owe them the Life of my father, which was given a retrieve. I had a similiar experience for 1 month in Hinduja hospital where my mother was staing for a months time for a Hip Joint repacment operation. I pray to God, after all these experiences, that if death has to come, then let it come in the cosy comfort of my home, with the faces of my near and dear ones around me... Bhaskaran. , chiranjiv mehta <vchiranjiv wrote:>> > > > True. It does raise ethical questions.But overzealousness may also lead to restrictions in actions & research. As in the west where showing affection to small children sometimes makes people suspiscious.> > > What is required is that modern medicine also understand the limits of making the Human body survive. The tretment should be holistic, but research is just pushing the frontiers.> These observations are based on certain cases where I have seen patients in ICU's living on life support systems with more than 5 pipes in their body. I have also seen their bodies burn in the crematorium, with different coloured flames ( chemical ) coming up.> > > --- On Tue, 19/8/08, Bhaskar rajiventerprises wrote:> > Bhaskar rajiventerprises Child mortality - A new disclosure.> > Tuesday, 19 August, 2008, 7:38 PM> > Child mortality - new disclosure.> > 49 Babies have died during clinical trials at the AIIMS ,> during the last 2 1/2 years , the reply to a RTI has revealed.> They conducted 42 sets of trials on 4142 babies ,> ( 2728 of thembelow the age of 1 ) since Jan 1st 2006.> comment by a NGO Owner-> The unquestionable ease with which clinical trials can be> conducted in India makes international agencies first test> their products on the Indian population.> > Clinical Trial - definition> > Clinical trials are research studies that test how well new> medical; formulations work on people. It attempts to find> better ways to prevent and treat a disease.> > Full Forms> AIIMS= All India Institute of Medical Sciences> RTI = Right to Information act.> > My comments - This is actually a real risk, which I have> noticed in the 5 star Hospital ICU's too.There the> bigger aged patients are subjected to such trials.> I may be wrong there, but the above report is for sure,> right. When the big Hospitals can do this , then why cant> the small nursing homes also do this on receipt of some> monetary considerations ? Well, this does not mean> we are pointing fingers at anybody, but just generalising.> > Ethics has become a rare commodity now, in Medical> science practitioners.> > In such cases which chemical caused what, on aministerin> of what, in how much doses, only God the Doctor knows,> and the astrologer can never come to an conclusion of the> real cause of the chemical or medicl setback which was> the cause, since we are not in Medical field and not> versant with their vast terminology. This is strictly the job> of the Doctor.> > Best wishes,> Bhaskaran.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Namaste Bhaskarji, >> if death has to come, then let it come in the cosy comfort of my home, with the faces of my near and dear ones around me... I wanted to add further to this point. It is wonderful if one can die in an atmosphere that is very comforting and if death happens smoothly. However, given such opportunity, one would be extremely fortunate if they can die in as much awareness as possible with total consciousness about everything that is happening internally during the process. It seems, a high level of consciousness during moments of death can leap frog one by many innumerable births in the spiritual sense. So much of karma gets dissolved just by being conscious during the intense moments of dying. In that sense, if one is fortunate to die in a comfortable and peaceful atmosphere, they better do it in solitude than in the grim and tensed environment of all near and dear ones. Regards -Prasad , " Bhaskar " <rajiventerprises wrote: > > > Dear Chiranjivji, > > Yes I know from first hand experience what is happenning in ICU's. My > father was admitted in Jaslok hospital for 4 months, and 3 months he was > in ICU, and 2-3 days on the ventilator, and almost 4 -6 weeks with > pipes hanging from all over his body for the fluids, and it was a > horrible experience, though the Doctors were the best and really good, > but we have seen other patients in the same room who breathed their > last. I was sleeping on the top floor ( meant for the close relatives of > those patients in ICU) all these months there , with several visits > daily to the ICU, and intermingling with the staff and listening to what > they were saying, whispering etc....... so know a good deal, but do not > wish to elaborate, for I owe them the Life of my father, which was given > a retrieve. I had a similiar experience for 1 month in Hinduja hospital > where my mother was staing for a months time for a Hip Joint repacment > operation. > > I pray to God, after all these experiences, that if death has to come, > then let it come in the cosy comfort of my home, with the faces of my > near and dear ones around me... > > Bhaskaran. , chiranjiv mehta > <vchiranjiv@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > True. It does raise ethical questions.But overzealousness may also > lead to restrictions in actions & research. As in the west where > showing affection to small children sometimes makes people suspiscious. > > > > > > What is required is that modern medicine also understand the limits of > making the Human body survive. The tretment should be holistic, but > research is just pushing the frontiers. > > These observations are based on certain cases where I have seen > patients in ICU's living on life support systems with more than 5 pipes > in their body. I have also seen their bodies burn in the crematorium, > with different coloured flames ( chemical ) coming up. > > > > > > --- On Tue, 19/8/08, Bhaskar rajiventerprises@ wrote: > > > > Bhaskar rajiventerprises@ > > Child mortality - A new > disclosure. > > > > Tuesday, 19 August, 2008, 7:38 PM > > > > Child mortality - new disclosure. > > > > 49 Babies have died during clinical trials at the AIIMS , > > during the last 2 1/2 years , the reply to a RTI has revealed. > > They conducted 42 sets of trials on 4142 babies , > > ( 2728 of thembelow the age of 1 ) since Jan 1st 2006. > > comment by a NGO Owner- > > The unquestionable ease with which clinical trials can be > > conducted in India makes international agencies first test > > their products on the Indian population. > > > > Clinical Trial - definition > > > > Clinical trials are research studies that test how well new > > medical; formulations work on people. It attempts to find > > better ways to prevent and treat a disease. > > > > Full Forms > > AIIMS= All India Institute of Medical Sciences > > RTI = Right to Information act. > > > > My comments - This is actually a real risk, which I have > > noticed in the 5 star Hospital ICU's too.There the > > bigger aged patients are subjected to such trials. > > I may be wrong there, but the above report is for sure, > > right. When the big Hospitals can do this , then why cant > > the small nursing homes also do this on receipt of some > > monetary considerations ? Well, this does not mean > > we are pointing fingers at anybody, but just generalising. > > > > Ethics has become a rare commodity now, in Medical > > science practitioners. > > > > In such cases which chemical caused what, on aministerin > > of what, in how much doses, only God the Doctor knows, > > and the astrologer can never come to an conclusion of the > > real cause of the chemical or medicl setback which was > > the cause, since we are not in Medical field and not > > versant with their vast terminology. This is strictly the job > > of the Doctor. > > > > Best wishes, > > Bhaskaran. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Dear Prasadji, Namaste. You are right 100%. That is the way for one to go, with full consciousness. But janna ( Knowing) manna ( Acceptance) and karna ( Doing), there is a vast difference. If given a choice You and me all would prefer to leave our Pranas through the sheersh ( Head) consciously and those who can do this , also know of their impending time, which they themselves fix on an opportune moment ( near and about their destined death time ). But unfortunately most leave through the anus and other paths, and not the through the skull. Coming back to janna, manna and karna, we all know how to attain that way of death through proper niyama and practise of Yogic kriyas, we also accept that this can be done, but how many of us actually sit down and meditate , and do these kriyas daily in the alloted hours before dawn, dusk and midnight, or the required chintan during the day, or the required discipline which goes with these kriyas ? Your observation is a elevated one and meant for the higher species of intelligent evolved souls amongst us. Thank You for sharing this and reminding us actually how we have to die. I am also agreeing with your suggestion but not following this in actual practise, but know well that I have to do it sooner or later. Better late than never. Bhaskaran. , "vvootla" <vvootla wrote:>> Namaste Bhaskarji,> >> if death has to come, then let it come in the cosy comfort of my> home, with the faces of my near and dear ones around me...> > I wanted to add further to this point. It is wonderful if one can> die in an atmosphere that is very comforting and if death happens> smoothly. However, given such opportunity, one would be extremely> fortunate if they can die in as much awareness as possible with total> consciousness about everything that is happening internally during the> process. It seems, a high level of consciousness during moments of> death can leap frog one by many innumerable births in the spiritual> sense. So much of karma gets dissolved just by being conscious during> the intense moments of dying. In that sense, if one is fortunate to> die in a comfortable and peaceful atmosphere, they better do it in> solitude than in the grim and tensed environment of all near and dear> ones.> > Regards> -Prasad> > > , "Bhaskar"> rajiventerprises@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear Chiranjivji,> > > > Yes I know from first hand experience what is happenning in ICU's. My> > father was admitted in Jaslok hospital for 4 months, and 3 months he was> > in ICU, and 2-3 days on the ventilator, and almost 4 -6 weeks with> > pipes hanging from all over his body for the fluids, and it was a> > horrible experience, though the Doctors were the best and really good,> > but we have seen other patients in the same room who breathed their> > last. I was sleeping on the top floor ( meant for the close relatives of> > those patients in ICU) all these months there , with several visits> > daily to the ICU, and intermingling with the staff and listening to what> > they were saying, whispering etc....... so know a good deal, but do not> > wish to elaborate, for I owe them the Life of my father, which was given> > a retrieve. I had a similiar experience for 1 month in Hinduja hospital> > where my mother was staing for a months time for a Hip Joint repacment> > operation.> > > > I pray to God, after all these experiences, that if death has to come,> > then let it come in the cosy comfort of my home, with the faces of my> > near and dear ones around me...> > > > Bhaskaran.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > , chiranjiv mehta> > <vchiranjiv@> wrote:> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > True. It does raise ethical questions.But overzealousness may also> > lead to restrictions in actions & research. As in the west where > > showing affection to small children sometimes makes people suspiscious.> > >> > >> > > What is required is that modern medicine also understand the limits of> > making the Human body survive. The tretment should be holistic, but> > research is just pushing the frontiers.> > > These observations are based on certain cases where I have seen> > patients in ICU's living on life support systems with more than 5 pipes> > in their body. I have also seen their bodies burn in the crematorium,> > with different coloured flames ( chemical ) coming up.> > >> > >> > > --- On Tue, 19/8/08, Bhaskar rajiventerprises@ wrote:> > >> > > Bhaskar rajiventerprises@> > > Child mortality - A new> > disclosure.> > > > > > Tuesday, 19 August, 2008, 7:38 PM> > >> > > Child mortality - new disclosure.> > >> > > 49 Babies have died during clinical trials at the AIIMS ,> > > during the last 2 1/2 years , the reply to a RTI has revealed.> > > They conducted 42 sets of trials on 4142 babies ,> > > ( 2728 of thembelow the age of 1 ) since Jan 1st 2006.> > > comment by a NGO Owner-> > > The unquestionable ease with which clinical trials can be> > > conducted in India makes international agencies first test> > > their products on the Indian population.> > >> > > Clinical Trial - definition> > >> > > Clinical trials are research studies that test how well new> > > medical; formulations work on people. It attempts to find> > > better ways to prevent and treat a disease.> > >> > > Full Forms> > > AIIMS= All India Institute of Medical Sciences> > > RTI = Right to Information act.> > >> > > My comments - This is actually a real risk, which I have> > > noticed in the 5 star Hospital ICU's too.There the> > > bigger aged patients are subjected to such trials.> > > I may be wrong there, but the above report is for sure,> > > right. When the big Hospitals can do this , then why cant> > > the small nursing homes also do this on receipt of some> > > monetary considerations ? Well, this does not mean> > > we are pointing fingers at anybody, but just generalising.> > >> > > Ethics has become a rare commodity now, in Medical> > > science practitioners.> > >> > > In such cases which chemical caused what, on aministerin> > > of what, in how much doses, only God the Doctor knows,> > > and the astrologer can never come to an conclusion of the> > > real cause of the chemical or medicl setback which was> > > the cause, since we are not in Medical field and not> > > versant with their vast terminology. This is strictly the job> > > of the Doctor.> > >> > > Best wishes,> > > Bhaskaran.> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Namaste Bhaskar ji, Thanks for your comments and yes there is an enormous difference between the knowing-accepting-doing phases. I'm yet to get a regularity into my own sAdhana. Just wanted to share the information I had gathered from my own Guru. So in one sense, I'm yet to stabilize into the action phase. Getting back to the related astrological subject, what are the simpler rules and indicators that can tell if the native is going to die in a a) peaceful and comfortable environment as opposed to dying due to a sudden health or accident related causes. b) if (a) then what are the factors that indicate a i)conscious death as in fully wakeful moments ii)unconscious death as in sleep or coma I remember reading in BPHS translation about death at home, at a temple or on the way. Regards, -Prasad , " Bhaskar " <rajiventerprises wrote: > > > Dear Prasadji, > > Namaste. > > You are right 100%. That is the way for one to go, with full > consciousness. But janna ( Knowing) manna ( Acceptance) and karna ( > Doing), there is a vast difference. > > If given a choice You and me all would prefer to leave our Pranas > through the sheersh ( Head) consciously and those who can do this , also > know of their impending time, which they themselves fix on an opportune > moment ( near and about their destined death time ). But unfortunately > most leave through the anus and other paths, and not the through the > skull. > > Coming back to janna, manna and karna, we all know how to attain that > way of death through proper niyama and practise of Yogic kriyas, we also > accept that this can be done, but how many of us actually sit down and > meditate , and do these kriyas daily in the alloted hours before dawn, > dusk and midnight, or the required chintan during the day, or the > required discipline which goes with these kriyas ? > > Your observation is a elevated one and meant for the higher species of > intelligent evolved souls amongst us. > > Thank You for sharing this and reminding us actually how we have to die. > I am also agreeing with your suggestion but not following this in actual > practise, but know well that I have to do it sooner or later. Better > late than never. > > Bhaskaran. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Dear Prasadji,Namaste. There are many pointers in the astrological texts which indicate where the birth would be, where the father would be at the time of birth, whether it would rain at that time etc. etc. and so are the pointers given for death time. For the three options you have given , also there are many pointers given. But tell me who has so much time to check all these in the deaths one has witnessed in his Life time ? And match these with the pointers given ? For me personally astrology is not meant for a quest to search answers for such queries, I am more contented with the solving and guidance of day to day issues, with the astrological knowledge. I also believe that one must aspire to become a Yogi in his Life time, which is what i aspire to be, so never really felt interested in researching these aspects of astrology. Once a Yogi man becomes, then the Janma Kundli ceases to be, for all respects. One does not have to look at the Kundli when one becomes a Yogi because he has surpassed the effects of the planets and they too cease to control him , for the most part. Unfortunately this sounds good in talking but in practise it is difficult to live like one. Because it will take lot of niyama in ones Life to remove himself from the coils of lust, Anger and desires of achieving materialstic goals, beyond which he will be known as a good man. And till the time one becomes a good man, the process of becoming a good Yogi does not began. For us to become good men in the real sense , is also a Heruclean task, what to talk o becoming a Yogi, but I know and believe that it is not impossible. Gradual introspection daily in ones activities, measures taken to correct the unwanted , and steps taken to bring in the wanted, would one day bring the person near to God, when His grace would fall on Him, and show him the path to becoming Yogi. I already have a Guru Shri Paramhansa Yoganandji since last 15 years, but unfortunately becoming his good shishya is now a distant dream for me, though this dream I dream daily, and never loose hope........... The Bhagavad Gita Chapter 6 Shloka 46 " The Yogi is superior to ascetics ; he is regarded as superior even to those versed in sacred lore. The Yogi is also superior to those who perform action with some interested motive. Therefore Arjuna, do you become a Yogi. " Same Chapter Shloka 47 " Of all Yogis again, he who devoutly worships Me, with his mind focused on Me, is considered by Me, to be the best Yogi. " Best wishes, Bhaskaran. , "vvootla" <vvootla wrote:>> Namaste Bhaskar ji,> > Thanks for your comments and yes there is an enormous difference> between the knowing-accepting-doing phases. I'm yet to get a> regularity into my own sAdhana. Just wanted to share the information I> had gathered from my own Guru. So in one sense, I'm yet to stabilize> into the action phase.> Getting back to the related astrological subject, what are the> simpler rules and indicators that can tell if the native is going to> die in a> a) peaceful and comfortable environment as opposed to dying due to a> sudden health or accident related causes.> b) if (a) then what are the factors that indicate a> i)conscious death as in fully wakeful moments> ii)unconscious death as in sleep or coma> > I remember reading in BPHS translation about death at home, at a> temple or on the way.> > Regards,> -Prasad> > > > , "Bhaskar"> rajiventerprises@ wrote:> >> >> > Dear Prasadji,> >> > Namaste.> >> > You are right 100%. That is the way for one to go, with full> > consciousness. But janna ( Knowing) manna ( Acceptance) and karna (> > Doing), there is a vast difference.> >> > If given a choice You and me all would prefer to leave our Pranas> > through the sheersh ( Head) consciously and those who can do this , also> > know of their impending time, which they themselves fix on an opportune> > moment ( near and about their destined death time ). But unfortunately> > most leave through the anus and other paths, and not the through the> > skull.> >> > Coming back to janna, manna and karna, we all know how to attain that> > way of death through proper niyama and practise of Yogic kriyas, we also> > accept that this can be done, but how many of us actually sit down and> > meditate , and do these kriyas daily in the alloted hours before dawn,> > dusk and midnight, or the required chintan during the day, or the> > required discipline which goes with these kriyas ?> >> > Your observation is a elevated one and meant for the higher species of> > intelligent evolved souls amongst us.> >> > Thank You for sharing this and reminding us actually how we have to die.> > I am also agreeing with your suggestion but not following this in actual> > practise, but know well that I have to do it sooner or later. Better> > late than never.> >> > Bhaskaran.> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Namaste Bhaskaran ji, Thanks for your comments and I respect your choices and the rationale behind them. Regards, -Prasad , " Bhaskar " <rajiventerprises wrote: > > Dear Prasadji, > Namaste. There are many pointers in the astrological texts which > indicate where the birth would be, where the father would be at the time > of birth, whether it would rain at that time etc. etc. and so are the > pointers given for death time. For the three options you have given , > also there are many pointers given. But tell me who has so much time to > check all these in the deaths one has witnessed in his Life time ? And > match these with the pointers given ? For me personally astrology is > not meant for a quest to search answers for such queries, I am more > contented with the solving and guidance of day to day issues, with the > astrological knowledge. I also believe that one must aspire to become > a Yogi in his Life time, which is what i aspire to be, so never really > felt interested in researching these aspects of astrology. Once a Yogi > man becomes, then the Janma Kundli ceases to be, for all respects. One > does not have to look at the Kundli when one becomes a Yogi because he > has surpassed the effects of the planets and they too cease to control > him , for the most part. Unfortunately this sounds good in talking but > in practise it is difficult to live like one. Because it will take lot > of niyama in ones Life to remove himself from the coils of lust, Anger > and desires of achieving materialstic goals, beyond which he will be > known as a good man. And till the time one becomes a good man, the > process of becoming a good Yogi does not began. For us to become good > men in the real sense , is also a Heruclean task, what to talk o > becoming a Yogi, but I know and believe that it is not impossible. > Gradual introspection daily in ones activities, measures taken to > correct the unwanted , and steps taken to bring in the wanted, would one > day bring the person near to God, when His grace would fall on Him, and > show him the path to becoming Yogi. I already have a Guru Shri > Paramhansa Yoganandji since last 15 years, but unfortunately becoming > his good shishya is now a distant dream for me, though this dream I > dream daily, and never loose hope........... The Bhagavad Gita Chapter > 6 Shloka 46 " The Yogi is superior to ascetics ; he is regarded as > superior even to those versed in sacred lore. The Yogi is also superior > to those who perform action with some interested motive. Therefore > Arjuna, do you become a Yogi. " Same Chapter Shloka 47 " Of all > Yogis again, he who devoutly worships Me, with his mind focused on Me, > is considered by Me, to be the best Yogi. " Best wishes, Bhaskaran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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