Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages

August 17, 2008

Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some SagesWritten by Sreenadh OG

I was going through the ancient text Adbhuta Samhita written by the

Jain king Ballala sena of 13th century AD. Some quotes that mention

the position of winter and summer solstice at various periods as quoted by many

sages is present in the book and this unique info attracted my attention. The

following write-up is based on the info provided by this book alone.

BC 1500-1400 (Vedanga Jyotisha of Sage Lagatha)

The Uttarayana starts

from beginning of Dhanishta and the Dakshinayana from the middle of Aslesha. [Vedanga

Jyotisha].

As per this winter solstice is at the beginning of Dhanishta and

the summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. This is a fact of BC 1500-1400

and thus the book Vedanga Jyotisha and the sage Lagatha dates back to BC 1500-1400

period.

The mention of middle point of Dhanishta and the starting point

of Aslesha clarifies that the sage is speaking about the fixed Nakshatra

divisions and NOT about a particular star. (i.e. the fixed Nakshatra divisions

and the Nakshatra chakra of 27 Nakshatras were in place at that time itself)

Parasara I (BC 1500-1400)

The Sishira Ritu is the period when Sun stays within the starting

point of Dhanishta Nakshatra and the end point of Revati Nakshatra. During Vasanta

Ritu sun stays within the end point of

Revati Nakshatra and the end point of Rohini Nakshatra. Sun stays between - starting

point of Mrigasira Nakshatra and the middle of Aslesha Nakshatra during Greeshma

Ritu; middle point of Aslesha and end point of Hasta during Varsha Ritu. From

the starting point of Chitra to the middle of Jyeshta it is Sarat Ritu and from

the middle of Jyeshta to the end of Sravana it is Hemanta Ritu. [Parasara I]

This quotes also tells us that the winter solstice is at the

beginning of Dhanishta and the summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. As

told earlier, this is a fact of BC 1500-1400 and thus the period of Sage

Parasara I dates back to BC 1500-1400 period.

Garga I (Near BC 1100)

If the Uttarayana starts and Sun returns after touching the

Nakshatra near Dhanishta (i.e. after touching Sravana), and if Dakkshinayana starts before sun touches

Aslesha Nakshatra then great fear could arise. [Garga I]

This quote indicates that during the period of this Garga winter

solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha Nakshatra.

If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of Aslesha Nakshatra

then this is a fact around BC 1100.

Garga feels great fear and uncertainty due the fact that ancient

sastras are violated. As per the ancient text he read, (could be texts like

Vedanga Jyotisha) the Uttarayana should start when Sun is at the beginning of

Dhanishta and Dakshinayana should start when sun is at the middle of Aslesha,

but alas this was not happening during his period. He was worried because as

evident from this quote, he was unaware about the phenomenon called "precession

of equinox" and thus the fear. Garga was a Jain sage, and the Jain religion originated

and was present even before this period.

Parasara II (Near BC 1100)

If Uttarayana starts before Sun touches the Sravana Nakshatra

and if Dakshinayana starts before the sun touches Aslesha star then great fear

could happen. [Parasara II]

This quote indicates that during the period of this parasara

winter solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha

Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of Aslesha

Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.

Garga feels uncertain, but Parasara feels certain about his

observation and his quote is on affirmative. He is saying that one should fear

not if Uttarayana starts in Dhanishta, but if it does not starts in Sravana; because

(as per his observation and as a natural rule of that period) Uttarayana should

start in Sravana and NOT in Dhanishta. Here we get the feeling that Parasara II

was aware of the phenomenon of "precession of equinox". Actually being the

quotes provided by the sages of the same period, his quote seems to be answer

to the quote provided by Garga I.

Kasyapa (After BC 1400-1100; period uncertain)

At some ancient period in the past Dakshinayana started at the

middle of Aslesha and Dakshinayana at the beginning of Dhanishta. This was NOT

due to any uncertainty involved, but happened as per rule (of planetary

movements) [Kasyapa]

From the words "At some ancient period", it is certain that at

the period of Kasyapa it was not the case. Thus it is clear that Kasyapa lived

much after the ancient period BC 1400. It is evident that Kasyapa knew well

about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox" and also well aware that this

happens as per the rule of planetary movements. There is no need that we should

fear, since it is NOT an Utpata, (a fear injecting omen indicating a dreadful

future event) but only a natural phenomenon. Kasyapa was a sage who lived in

Kashmir. Possibly this Kasyapa lived after the period of Parasara II of BC

1100.

Parasara III (Around BC 626)

Know that the Uttarayana starts at the end of Uttarashadha [Parasara

III]

From this it is evident that during his period winter solstice

was at the end of Uttarashadha and summer solstice at the 3rd pada

of Pushya Nakshatra. This is a fact around BC 626. From the bold statement of

guidance such as `Know that' it can be assumed that he too knew well about the

phenomenon of "precession of equinox".

Important Observation

From the above quoted literary historical evidence from BC 1500

to BC 600, the important point to note is that – "During that period a fixed

stellar zodiac was in use, as a fixed reference frame work to note the movement

of equinoxes, solstices, as well the movements of planets. The movement of

solstices were always notated by referring to their position in relation to

this fixed framework i.e. Nakshatra Chakra". In other words, till BC 600 India

was using Nakshatra Chakra as the reference frame work and NOT the Rasi Chakra.

The origin of Rasi chakra could be from sources outside India, or at least

outside Vedic literature/culture.

Around BC 300 Alexander attached India; a mix-up of western and

eastern knowledge happened. As far as DATABLE texts are concerned, the sign

names such as Mesha, Vrishabha etc gets popularity in Indian literature after

this only. (I am NOT denying the antiquity of these words or their use in

ancient Indian literature. But such ancient texts like Skanda hora, Kausika

hora etc DOES NOT provide any info which can used to date such texts).

The first datable quote that connects Signs with solstices

In Pancha Siddhantika by Varaha Mihira we find the first quote

that connects/correlates Rasis with the movement of solstices.

Uttarayana and Sisira Ritu stats when Sun is at the beginning of

Makara Rasi (Capricorn). Each Ritu is of 2 months. Dakshinayana starts when Sun

is at beginning of Karkataka (Cancer) [Pancha Siddhantika AD 505]

Around AD 505 period summer solstice is near the middle of Pushya.

This is certainly NOT the beginning of Cancer sign. Still Mihira tells us that

Dakshinayana starts from the beginning of Cancer! Certainly the Zodiac referred/used

by Mihira both in Pancha Siddhantica and Brihat Samhita is NOT Nirayana Zodiac

but Sayana Zodiac. i.e. The Zodiac (with moving signs) that stats counting

signs from Vernal equinox, the system that was used by Greek scholars like Ptolemy,

the western astronomical system of

zodiac! The fact that Mihira in at least 2 of his books mentions and uses

Sayana Zodiac and NOT the Nirayana concept of Zodiac is a well evident and

certain fact. This is absurd! Certainly this is NOT the original system of

Indian Astrology/Astronomy. Even later

day texts like Brahma Siddhnta follows this wrong path – Indian astrology had already

lost its correct path!

Two signs each from Capricorn indicates seasons like Sisira,

Vasanta, Greeshma, Varsha , Sarat and Hemanta. [brahma Siddhanta]

Since the association with Nakshatra Chakra was already lost,

since the above quote refers to the Sayana Zodiac, the above quote is NOT AT

ALL useful for determining the period of the text or quote. As per Sayana

System the above quote would be true always! We could clearly understand the

reason for this path lost situation, since we know that the author of Brahma

Siddhanta was the follower of Varaha Mihira.

Back to the right track

Nothing else is required to correct this mistake – but only a

look back at the concept of Aswinyadi and Meshadi presented in ancient Agama (ancient

non-vedic Indian texts) texts such as Skanda hora. We just have to look back at this ancient stream of knowledge

preserved and saved by the Saiva sages as well as the Jains. There Rasi Chakra

is NOT Sayana, but Nirayana. There Aswinyadi and Meshadi are not different by the

same, and refer to the same starting point and to the same fixed frame work!

This is a going back to the ancient fixed Nakshatra chakra, to the Vedic and

non-vedic past, to the clear and logical reference frame. The Jain king Ballala

Sena who knows this ancient truth, concludes the discussion by providing us

with the clear Nirayana position of the solstices at his period of time (i.e AD

1269).

Starting at the end minute of 20 degree in Dhanu (Sagittarius),

the Ritus such as Sisira stats (in my period of Saka 1190) [Adbhuta Jataka]

Position of Winter solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Sagittarius

Position of Summer solstice

(at that period) = 20 degree in Gemini

The Jain king Bellala Sena started writing his excellent book

Adbhuta Sagara during the saka year 1190 (AD 1269) as he himself clearly tells

us in his book. On back calculation, we get that the Ayanamsa used by Ballala

Sena is approx 22 degree for that period. This is a valuable clue! Those who

are interested can calculate and find the Ballalasena's answer to the riddle of

Ayanamsa and the starting point of Aries from this info! I request those who

are interested in astronomical mathematics to arrive at the exact value and the

Ayanamsa used by Ballala sena by following this clue, and analyze which

Ayanamsa system (CH or CP or whatever) followed by us followed by us today is in tune with the Ayanamsa used by the ancient

master Ballala Sena. Wish you all happy calculation!

-

0 -

August 17, 2008

Dear Sunil Nairji,Yavana jataka is the same as the work in Sanskrit prose by Maya, which Varaha Mihira referred to as Surya- Siddhanta and Sphuridhvaja referred to as Yavana Jataka and then Sphuridhvaja went on to make an edition with Sanskrit verses. There was no Greek book corresponding to yavana Jataka. It was Pingree, who first made the fantastic claim that the Sanskrit work Yavana Jataka was a Greek work and that the original Greek work is lost. Pingree believed in Max Mullerian chronology.Regards,Sunil Bhattacharjyasunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:59:48 AM Re: Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages Hare rama krishna dear sreeandh ji good and nice write up . but just i want to add few points ,even if we agree astro was used in muhurthas and not for any thing like other propogate it in the name of that is vedic astrology and rest is brought frm yavans and the varhamihira and maya cheated indians etc .But my question is without a defenit yr and month ( solar month is rasi or rasi can get solar months name too ) and ritu and ayanas pattern how they fix nakshratra ,thithi etc .And if they dont blv in predictiv part then what is the use of muhurtas just ornamental value ?? In kerala we use one word for books as pustakam ( it is a

protugese word gone frm india and come back and we use it ,even in hindi they use it tho no portugese has any connection with north india >does it mean that till portugse came in we dont hav any books .)But ppl who find fault with any thing can say any thing . thanks for ur gr8 efforts regrds sunil nair om shreem mahalaxmai namah ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>>

> Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages> > Written by Sreenadh OG> > > I was going through the ancient text Adbhuta Samhita written by the Jain> king Ballala sena of 13th century AD. Some quotes that mention the> position of winter and summer solstice at various periods as quoted by> many sages is present in the book and this unique info attracted my> attention. The following write-up is based on the info provided by this> book alone.> > BC 1500-1400 (Vedanga Jyotisha of Sage Lagatha)> > The Uttarayana starts from beginning of Dhanishta and the Dakshinayana> from the middle of Aslesha. [Vedanga Jyotisha].> > As per this winter solstice is at the beginning of Dhanishta and the> summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. This is a fact of BC 1500-1400> and thus the book Vedanga Jyotisha and the sage Lagatha

dates back to BC> 1500-1400 period.> > The mention of middle point of Dhanishta and the starting point of> Aslesha clarifies that the sage is speaking about the fixed Nakshatra> divisions and NOT about a particular star. (i.e. the fixed Nakshatra> divisions and the Nakshatra chakra of 27 Nakshatras were in place at> that time itself)> > Parasara I (BC 1500-1400)> > The Sishira Ritu is the period when Sun stays within the starting point> of Dhanishta Nakshatra and the end point of Revati Nakshatra. During> Vasanta Ritu sun stays within the end point of Revati Nakshatra and the> end point of Rohini Nakshatra. Sun stays between - starting point of> Mrigasira Nakshatra and the middle of Aslesha Nakshatra during Greeshma> Ritu; middle point of Aslesha and end point of Hasta during Varsha Ritu.> From the starting point of Chitra to the middle

of Jyeshta it is Sarat> Ritu and from the middle of Jyeshta to the end of Sravana it is Hemanta> Ritu. [Parasara I]> > This quotes also tells us that the winter solstice is at the beginning> of Dhanishta and the summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. As told> earlier, this is a fact of BC 1500-1400 and thus the period of Sage> Parasara I dates back to BC 1500-1400 period.> > Garga I (Near BC 1100)> > If the Uttarayana starts and Sun returns after touching the Nakshatra> near Dhanishta (i.e. after touching Sravana), and if Dakkshinayana> starts before sun touches Aslesha Nakshatra then great fear could arise.> [Garga I]> > This quote indicates that during the period of this Garga winter> solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha> Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning

of> Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.> > Garga feels great fear and uncertainty due the fact that ancient sastras> are violated. As per the ancient text he read, (could be texts like> Vedanga Jyotisha) the Uttarayana should start when Sun is at the> beginning of Dhanishta and Dakshinayana should start when sun is at the> middle of Aslesha, but alas this was not happening during his period. He> was worried because as evident from this quote, he was unaware about the> phenomenon called "precession of equinox" and thus the fear.> Garga was a Jain sage, and the Jain religion originated and was present> even before this period.> > Parasara II (Near BC 1100)> > If Uttarayana starts before Sun touches the Sravana Nakshatra and if> Dakshinayana starts before the sun touches Aslesha star then great fear> could happen.

[Parasara II]> > This quote indicates that during the period of this parasara winter> solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha> Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of> Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.> > Garga feels uncertain, but Parasara feels certain about his observation> and his quote is on affirmative. He is saying that one should fear not> if Uttarayana starts in Dhanishta, but if it does not starts in Sravana;> because (as per his observation and as a natural rule of that period)> Uttarayana should start in Sravana and NOT in Dhanishta. Here we get the> feeling that Parasara II was aware of the phenomenon of "precession> of equinox". Actually being the quotes provided by the sages of the> same period, his quote seems to be answer to the quote provided by Garga>

I.> > Kasyapa (After BC 1400-1100; period uncertain)> > At some ancient period in the past Dakshinayana started at the middle of> Aslesha and Dakshinayana at the beginning of Dhanishta. This was NOT due> to any uncertainty involved, but happened as per rule (of planetary> movements) [Kasyapa]> > From the words "At some ancient period", it is certain that at> the period of Kasyapa it was not the case. Thus it is clear that Kasyapa> lived much after the ancient period BC 1400. It is evident that Kasyapa> knew well about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox" and> also well aware that this happens as per the rule of planetary> movements. There is no need that we should fear, since it is NOT an> Utpata, (a fear injecting omen indicating a dreadful future event) but> only a natural phenomenon. Kasyapa was a sage who lived in Kashmir.>

Possibly this Kasyapa lived after the period of Parasara II of BC 1100.> > Parasara III (Around BC 626)> > Know that the Uttarayana starts at the end of Uttarashadha [Parasara> III]> > From this it is evident that during his period winter solstice was at> the end of Uttarashadha and summer solstice at the 3rd pada of Pushya> Nakshatra. This is a fact around BC 626. From the bold statement of> guidance such as `Know that' it can be assumed that he too knew> well about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox".> > Important Observation> > From the above quoted literary historical evidence from BC 1500 to BC> 600, the important point to note is that – "During that period a> fixed stellar zodiac was in use, as a fixed reference frame work to note> the movement of equinoxes, solstices, as well the movements of planets.> The

movement of solstices were always notated by referring to their> position in relation to this fixed framework i.e. Nakshatra Chakra".> In other words, till BC 600 India was using Nakshatra Chakra as the> reference frame work and NOT the Rasi Chakra. The origin of Rasi chakra> could be from sources outside India, or at least outside Vedic> literature/culture.> > Around BC 300 Alexander attached India; a mix-up of western and eastern> knowledge happened. As far as DATABLE texts are concerned, the sign> names such as Mesha, Vrishabha etc gets popularity in Indian literature> after this only. (I am NOT denying the antiquity of these words or their> use in ancient Indian literature. But such ancient texts like Skanda> hora, Kausika hora etc DOES NOT provide any info which can used to date> such texts).> > The first datable quote that connects Signs with

solstices> > In Pancha Siddhantika by Varaha Mihira we find the first quote that> connects/correlates Rasis with the movement of solstices.> > Uttarayana and Sisira Ritu stats when Sun is at the beginning of Makara> Rasi (Capricorn). Each Ritu is of 2 months. Dakshinayana starts when Sun> is at beginning of Karkataka (Cancer) [Pancha Siddhantika AD 505]> > Around AD 505 period summer solstice is near the middle of Pushya. This> is certainly NOT the beginning of Cancer sign. Still Mihira tells us> that Dakshinayana starts from the beginning of Cancer! Certainly the> Zodiac referred/used by Mihira both in Pancha Siddhantica and Brihat> Samhita is NOT Nirayana Zodiac but Sayana Zodiac. i.e. The Zodiac (with> moving signs) that stats counting signs from Vernal equinox, the system> that was used by Greek scholars like Ptolemy, the western

astronomical> system of zodiac! The fact that Mihira in at least 2 of his books> mentions and uses Sayana Zodiac and NOT the Nirayana concept of Zodiac> is a well evident and certain fact. This is absurd! Certainly this is> NOT the original system of Indian Astrology/Astronomy . Even later day> texts like Brahma Siddhnta follows this wrong path – Indian> astrology had already lost its correct path!> > Two signs each from Capricorn indicates seasons like Sisira, Vasanta,> Greeshma, Varsha , Sarat and Hemanta. [brahma Siddhanta]> > Since the association with Nakshatra Chakra was already lost, since the> above quote refers to the Sayana Zodiac, the above quote is NOT AT ALL> useful for determining the period of the text or quote. As per Sayana> System the above quote would be true always! We could clearly understand> the reason for this path lost

situation, since we know that the author> of Brahma Siddhanta was the follower of Varaha Mihira.> > Back to the right track> > Nothing else is required to correct this mistake – but only a look> back at the concept of Aswinyadi and Meshadi presented in ancient Agama> (ancient non-vedic Indian texts) texts such as Skanda hora. We just have> to look back at this ancient stream of knowledge preserved and saved by> the Saiva sages as well as the Jains. There Rasi Chakra is NOT Sayana,> but Nirayana. There Aswinyadi and Meshadi are not different by the same,> and refer to the same starting point and to the same fixed frame work!> This is a going back to the ancient fixed Nakshatra chakra, to the Vedic> and non-vedic past, to the clear and logical reference frame. The Jain> king Ballala Sena who knows this ancient truth, concludes the discussion> by

providing us with the clear Nirayana position of the solstices at his> period of time (i.e AD 1269).> > Starting at the end minute of 20 degree in Dhanu (Sagittarius) , the> Ritus such as Sisira stats (in my period of Saka 1190) [Adbhuta Jataka]> > Position of Winter solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Sagittarius> > Position of Summer solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Gemini> > The Jain king Bellala Sena started writing his excellent book Adbhuta> Sagara during the saka year 1190 (AD 1269) as he himself clearly tells> us in his book. On back calculation, we get that the Ayanamsa used by> Ballala Sena is approx 22 degree for that period. This is a valuable> clue! Those who are interested can calculate and find the> Ballalasena' s answer to the riddle of Ayanamsa and the starting> point of Aries from this info! I request those who

are interested in> astronomical mathematics to arrive at the exact value and the Ayanamsa> used by Ballala sena by following this clue, and analyze which Ayanamsa> system (CH or CP or whatever) followed by us followed by us today is in> tune with the Ayanamsa used by the ancient master Ballala Sena. Wish you> all happy calculation! > > - 0 ->

August 17, 2008

Hare rama krishna

dear sunil bhattacharya ji

sure ,but i was in a way replying ( indirectly ) to the so called ppl who wanted to restorate vedic astrology and wanted this meshadi names out of our astrology saying that is all yavanas contribution .The hora ,dasa and horary astro is bogus and in puranas and vedas we use only muhurthas .

And they want complete details frm vedas on astrology or any science frm vedas it self,tho it was not main purpose of vedas and they dont or r not ready to listen ,the simple meantioning cities means we hav cities ,then they will come out and ask how roads r made ??what technology ?? this and that .as it is easy to ask with a typical set of questions

thank u sir

regrds sunil nair

om shreem mahalaxmai namah .

, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sunil Nairji,> > Yavana jataka is the same as the work in Sanskrit prose by Maya, which Varaha Mihira referred to as Surya- Siddhanta and Sphuridhvaja referred to as Yavana Jataka and then Sphuridhvaja went on to make an edition with Sanskrit verses. There was no Greek book corresponding to yavana Jataka. It was Pingree, who first made the fantastic claim that the Sanskrit work Yavana Jataka was a Greek work and that the original Greek work is lost. Pingree believed in Max Mullerian chronology.> > Regards,> > Sunil Bhattacharjya> > > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala > Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:59:48 AM> Re: Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages> > > > Hare rama krishna > > dear sreeandh ji > > good and nice write up .> > but just i want to add few points ,even if we agree astro was used in muhurthas and not for any thing like other propogate it in the name of that is vedic astrology and rest is brought frm yavans and the varhamihira and maya cheated indians etc .But my question is without a defenit yr and month ( solar month is rasi or rasi can get solar months name too ) and ritu and ayanas pattern how they fix nakshratra ,thithi etc .And if they dont blv in predictiv part then what is the use of muhurtas just ornamental value ??> > In kerala we use one word for books as pustakam ( it is a protugese word gone frm india and come back and we use it ,even in hindi they use it tho no portugese has any connection with north india >does it mean that till portugse came in we dont hav any books .)> But ppl who find fault with any thing can say any thing .> > thanks for ur gr8 efforts > > regrds sunil nair > om shreem mahalaxmai namah > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" sreesog@ wrote:> >> > > > Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages> > > > Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > I was going through the ancient text Adbhuta Samhita written by the Jain> > king Ballala sena of 13th century AD. Some quotes that mention the> > position of winter and summer solstice at various periods as quoted by> > many sages is present in the book and this unique info attracted my> > attention. The following write-up is based on the info provided by this> > book alone.> > > > BC 1500-1400 (Vedanga Jyotisha of Sage Lagatha)> > > > The Uttarayana starts from beginning of Dhanishta and the Dakshinayana> > from the middle of Aslesha. [Vedanga Jyotisha].> > > > As per this winter solstice is at the beginning of Dhanishta and the> > summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. This is a fact of BC 1500-1400> > and thus the book Vedanga Jyotisha and the sage Lagatha dates back to BC> > 1500-1400 period.> > > > The mention of middle point of Dhanishta and the starting point of> > Aslesha clarifies that the sage is speaking about the fixed Nakshatra> > divisions and NOT about a particular star. (i.e. the fixed Nakshatra> > divisions and the Nakshatra chakra of 27 Nakshatras were in place at> > that time itself)> > > > Parasara I (BC 1500-1400)> > > > The Sishira Ritu is the period when Sun stays within the starting point> > of Dhanishta Nakshatra and the end point of Revati Nakshatra. During> > Vasanta Ritu sun stays within the end point of Revati Nakshatra and the> > end point of Rohini Nakshatra. Sun stays between - starting point of> > Mrigasira Nakshatra and the middle of Aslesha Nakshatra during Greeshma> > Ritu; middle point of Aslesha and end point of Hasta during Varsha Ritu.> > From the starting point of Chitra to the middle of Jyeshta it is Sarat> > Ritu and from the middle of Jyeshta to the end of Sravana it is Hemanta> > Ritu. [Parasara I]> > > > This quotes also tells us that the winter solstice is at the beginning> > of Dhanishta and the summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. As told> > earlier, this is a fact of BC 1500-1400 and thus the period of Sage> > Parasara I dates back to BC 1500-1400 period.> > > > Garga I (Near BC 1100)> > > > If the Uttarayana starts and Sun returns after touching the Nakshatra> > near Dhanishta (i.e. after touching Sravana), and if Dakkshinayana> > starts before sun touches Aslesha Nakshatra then great fear could arise.> > [Garga I]> > > > This quote indicates that during the period of this Garga winter> > solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha> > Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of> > Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.> > > > Garga feels great fear and uncertainty due the fact that ancient sastras> > are violated. As per the ancient text he read, (could be texts like> > Vedanga Jyotisha) the Uttarayana should start when Sun is at the> > beginning of Dhanishta and Dakshinayana should start when sun is at the> > middle of Aslesha, but alas this was not happening during his period. He> > was worried because as evident from this quote, he was unaware about the> > phenomenon called "precession of equinox" and thus the fear.> > Garga was a Jain sage, and the Jain religion originated and was present> > even before this period.> > > > Parasara II (Near BC 1100)> > > > If Uttarayana starts before Sun touches the Sravana Nakshatra and if> > Dakshinayana starts before the sun touches Aslesha star then great fear> > could happen. [Parasara II]> > > > This quote indicates that during the period of this parasara winter> > solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha> > Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of> > Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.> > > > Garga feels uncertain, but Parasara feels certain about his observation> > and his quote is on affirmative. He is saying that one should fear not> > if Uttarayana starts in Dhanishta, but if it does not starts in Sravana;> > because (as per his observation and as a natural rule of that period)> > Uttarayana should start in Sravana and NOT in Dhanishta. Here we get the> > feeling that Parasara II was aware of the phenomenon of "precession> > of equinox". Actually being the quotes provided by the sages of the> > same period, his quote seems to be answer to the quote provided by Garga> > I.> > > > Kasyapa (After BC 1400-1100; period uncertain)> > > > At some ancient period in the past Dakshinayana started at the middle of> > Aslesha and Dakshinayana at the beginning of Dhanishta. This was NOT due> > to any uncertainty involved, but happened as per rule (of planetary> > movements) [Kasyapa]> > > > From the words "At some ancient period", it is certain that at> > the period of Kasyapa it was not the case. Thus it is clear that Kasyapa> > lived much after the ancient period BC 1400. It is evident that Kasyapa> > knew well about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox" and> > also well aware that this happens as per the rule of planetary> > movements. There is no need that we should fear, since it is NOT an> > Utpata, (a fear injecting omen indicating a dreadful future event) but> > only a natural phenomenon. Kasyapa was a sage who lived in Kashmir.> > Possibly this Kasyapa lived after the period of Parasara II of BC 1100.> > > > Parasara III (Around BC 626)> > > > Know that the Uttarayana starts at the end of Uttarashadha [Parasara> > III]> > > > From this it is evident that during his period winter solstice was at> > the end of Uttarashadha and summer solstice at the 3rd pada of Pushya> > Nakshatra. This is a fact around BC 626. From the bold statement of> > guidance such as `Know that' it can be assumed that he too knew> > well about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox".> > > > Important Observation> > > > From the above quoted literary historical evidence from BC 1500 to BC> > 600, the important point to note is that – "During that period a> > fixed stellar zodiac was in use, as a fixed reference frame work to note> > the movement of equinoxes, solstices, as well the movements of planets.> > The movement of solstices were always notated by referring to their> > position in relation to this fixed framework i.e. Nakshatra Chakra".> > In other words, till BC 600 India was using Nakshatra Chakra as the> > reference frame work and NOT the Rasi Chakra. The origin of Rasi chakra> > could be from sources outside India, or at least outside Vedic> > literature/culture.> > > > Around BC 300 Alexander attached India; a mix-up of western and eastern> > knowledge happened. As far as DATABLE texts are concerned, the sign> > names such as Mesha, Vrishabha etc gets popularity in Indian literature> > after this only. (I am NOT denying the antiquity of these words or their> > use in ancient Indian literature. But such ancient texts like Skanda> > hora, Kausika hora etc DOES NOT provide any info which can used to date> > such texts).> > > > The first datable quote that connects Signs with solstices> > > > In Pancha Siddhantika by Varaha Mihira we find the first quote that> > connects/correlates Rasis with the movement of solstices.> > > > Uttarayana and Sisira Ritu stats when Sun is at the beginning of Makara> > Rasi (Capricorn). Each Ritu is of 2 months. Dakshinayana starts when Sun> > is at beginning of Karkataka (Cancer) [Pancha Siddhantika AD 505]> > > > Around AD 505 period summer solstice is near the middle of Pushya. This> > is certainly NOT the beginning of Cancer sign. Still Mihira tells us> > that Dakshinayana starts from the beginning of Cancer! Certainly the> > Zodiac referred/used by Mihira both in Pancha Siddhantica and Brihat> > Samhita is NOT Nirayana Zodiac but Sayana Zodiac. i.e. The Zodiac (with> > moving signs) that stats counting signs from Vernal equinox, the system> > that was used by Greek scholars like Ptolemy, the western astronomical> > system of zodiac! The fact that Mihira in at least 2 of his books> > mentions and uses Sayana Zodiac and NOT the Nirayana concept of Zodiac> > is a well evident and certain fact. This is absurd! Certainly this is> > NOT the original system of Indian Astrology/Astronomy . Even later day> > texts like Brahma Siddhnta follows this wrong path – Indian> > astrology had already lost its correct path!> > > > Two signs each from Capricorn indicates seasons like Sisira, Vasanta,> > Greeshma, Varsha , Sarat and Hemanta. [brahma Siddhanta]> > > > Since the association with Nakshatra Chakra was already lost, since the> > above quote refers to the Sayana Zodiac, the above quote is NOT AT ALL> > useful for determining the period of the text or quote. As per Sayana> > System the above quote would be true always! We could clearly understand> > the reason for this path lost situation, since we know that the author> > of Brahma Siddhanta was the follower of Varaha Mihira.> > > > Back to the right track> > > > Nothing else is required to correct this mistake – but only a look> > back at the concept of Aswinyadi and Meshadi presented in ancient Agama> > (ancient non-vedic Indian texts) texts such as Skanda hora. We just have> > to look back at this ancient stream of knowledge preserved and saved by> > the Saiva sages as well as the Jains. There Rasi Chakra is NOT Sayana,> > but Nirayana. There Aswinyadi and Meshadi are not different by the same,> > and refer to the same starting point and to the same fixed frame work!> > This is a going back to the ancient fixed Nakshatra chakra, to the Vedic> > and non-vedic past, to the clear and logical reference frame. The Jain> > king Ballala Sena who knows this ancient truth, concludes the discussion> > by providing us with the clear Nirayana position of the solstices at his> > period of time (i.e AD 1269).> > > > Starting at the end minute of 20 degree in Dhanu (Sagittarius) , the> > Ritus such as Sisira stats (in my period of Saka 1190) [Adbhuta Jataka]> > > > Position of Winter solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Sagittarius> > > > Position of Summer solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Gemini> > > > The Jain king Bellala Sena started writing his excellent book Adbhuta> > Sagara during the saka year 1190 (AD 1269) as he himself clearly tells> > us in his book. On back calculation, we get that the Ayanamsa used by> > Ballala Sena is approx 22 degree for that period. This is a valuable> > clue! Those who are interested can calculate and find the> > Ballalasena' s answer to the riddle of Ayanamsa and the starting> > point of Aries from this info! I request those who are interested in> > astronomical mathematics to arrive at the exact value and the Ayanamsa> > used by Ballala sena by following this clue, and analyze which Ayanamsa> > system (CH or CP or whatever) followed by us followed by us today is in> > tune with the Ayanamsa used by the ancient master Ballala Sena. Wish you> > all happy calculation! > > > > - 0 -> >>

August 17, 2008

Yavanas were the pre-Aryan inhabitants of the Indus valley. They could

have been anybody as far as we know. This does not mean that they were

only Greeks or foreigners. So nobody can claim with authenticity, that

our knowledge of astrology comes for the Greeks, It may be vice versa

too.

Let the non believers remain content with their theories. Who cares of

them ?

Vedanga jyotish came with the Arans.

Rakshasa jyotish came with the Non Aryans.

Yavana jyotish came from the foreigners.

I do not wish to expand on above, as would create unnecessary

controversies, as here too there are many Grandpas, on whose foots I do

not wish to step upon.

Bhaskaran.

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Sunil Nairji,

>

> Yavana jataka is the same as the work in Sanskrit prose by Maya, which

Varaha Mihira referred to as Surya- Siddhanta and Sphuridhvaja referred

to as Yavana Jataka and then Sphuridhvaja went on to make an edition

with Sanskrit verses. There was no Greek book corresponding to yavana

Jataka. It was Pingree, who first made the fantastic claim that the

Sanskrit work Yavana Jataka was a Greek work and that the original Greek

work is lost. Pingree believed in Max Mullerian chronology.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil Bhattacharjya

>

> sunil nair astro_tellerkerala

>

> Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:59:48 AM

> Re: Adbhuta Samhita and the Period

of Some Sages

>

> Hare rama krishna

>

> dear sreeandh ji

>

> good and nice write up .

>

> but just i want to add few points ,even if we agree astro was used in

muhurthas and not for any thing like other propogate it in the name of

that is vedic astrology and rest is brought frm yavans and the

varhamihira and maya cheated indians etc .But my question is without a

defenit yr and month ( solar month is rasi or rasi can get solar months

name too ) and ritu and ayanas pattern how they fix nakshratra ,thithi

etc .And if they dont blv in predictiv part then what is the use of

muhurtas just ornamental value ??

>

> In kerala we use one word for books as pustakam ( it is a protugese

word gone frm india and come back and we use it ,even in hindi they use

it tho no portugese has any connection with north india >does it mean

that till portugse came in we dont hav any books .)

> But ppl who find fault with any thing can say any thing .

>

> thanks for ur gr8 efforts

>

> regrds sunil nair

> om shreem mahalaxmai namah

>

August 18, 2008

Dear Sunil ji, I NEVER argued that Ancient Indian Astrology with the Nirayana Zodiac is some thing that was borrowed from Greeks or something like that. It is well evident that Ancient Indian Astrology and the concept of Mesha, Vrishabha etc signs is much older than that and also that texts like Skanda hora dates back to the near vedic period. My only arguments were that, the origin of such a system in India had a NON-VEDIC/Agama origin and also that the currently available ancient texts prior to BC 300 that discuss/mention the sign names (such as Mesha, Vrishbha etc) are all NON-DATABLE texts. I was NEVER in favor of the argument of Greek origin. Also, please note that the use of Nakshtra chkra alone (even in Vedic astrology) DOES NOT limit this subject and its application to Muhurta fixing alone! My argument is that Nakshatra Chakra was used extensively in ancient india for actual predictive purpose, in predictive astrology. Hope this clarifies.Love and regards,Sreenadh , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:> > Hare rama krishna> > > > dear sreeandh ji> > > > good and nice write up .> > > > but just i want to add few points ,even if we agree astro was used in> muhurthas and not for any thing like other propogate it in the name of> that is vedic astrology and rest is brought frm yavans and the> varhamihira and maya cheated indians etc .But my question is without a> defenit yr and month ( solar month is rasi or rasi can get solar months> name too ) and ritu and ayanas pattern how they fix nakshratra ,thithi> etc .And if they dont blv in predictiv part then what is the use of> muhurtas just ornamental value ??> > > > In kerala we use one word for books as pustakam ( it is a protugese> word gone frm india and come back and we use it ,even in hindi they use> it tho no portugese has any connection with north india >does it mean> that till portugse came in we dont hav any books .)> > But ppl who find fault with any thing can say any thing .> > > > thanks for ur gr8 efforts> > > > regrds sunil nair> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> >> > Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages> >> > Written by Sreenadh OG> >> >> > I was going through the ancient text Adbhuta Samhita written by the> Jain> > king Ballala sena of 13th century AD. Some quotes that mention the> > position of winter and summer solstice at various periods as quoted by> > many sages is present in the book and this unique info attracted my> > attention. The following write-up is based on the info provided by> this> > book alone.> >> > BC 1500-1400 (Vedanga Jyotisha of Sage Lagatha)> >> > The Uttarayana starts from beginning of Dhanishta and the Dakshinayana> > from the middle of Aslesha. [Vedanga Jyotisha].> >> > As per this winter solstice is at the beginning of Dhanishta and the> > summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. This is a fact of BC> 1500-1400> > and thus the book Vedanga Jyotisha and the sage Lagatha dates back to> BC> > 1500-1400 period.> >> > The mention of middle point of Dhanishta and the starting point of> > Aslesha clarifies that the sage is speaking about the fixed Nakshatra> > divisions and NOT about a particular star. (i.e. the fixed Nakshatra> > divisions and the Nakshatra chakra of 27 Nakshatras were in place at> > that time itself)> >> > Parasara I (BC 1500-1400)> >> > The Sishira Ritu is the period when Sun stays within the starting> point> > of Dhanishta Nakshatra and the end point of Revati Nakshatra. During> > Vasanta Ritu sun stays within the end point of Revati Nakshatra and> the> > end point of Rohini Nakshatra. Sun stays between - starting point of> > Mrigasira Nakshatra and the middle of Aslesha Nakshatra during> Greeshma> > Ritu; middle point of Aslesha and end point of Hasta during Varsha> Ritu.> > From the starting point of Chitra to the middle of Jyeshta it is Sarat> > Ritu and from the middle of Jyeshta to the end of Sravana it is> Hemanta> > Ritu. [Parasara I]> >> > This quotes also tells us that the winter solstice is at the beginning> > of Dhanishta and the summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. As told> > earlier, this is a fact of BC 1500-1400 and thus the period of Sage> > Parasara I dates back to BC 1500-1400 period.> >> > Garga I (Near BC 1100)> >> > If the Uttarayana starts and Sun returns after touching the Nakshatra> > near Dhanishta (i.e. after touching Sravana), and if Dakkshinayana> > starts before sun touches Aslesha Nakshatra then great fear could> arise.> > [Garga I]> >> > This quote indicates that during the period of this Garga winter> > solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha> > Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of> > Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.> >> > Garga feels great fear and uncertainty due the fact that ancient> sastras> > are violated. As per the ancient text he read, (could be texts like> > Vedanga Jyotisha) the Uttarayana should start when Sun is at the> > beginning of Dhanishta and Dakshinayana should start when sun is at> the> > middle of Aslesha, but alas this was not happening during his period.> He> > was worried because as evident from this quote, he was unaware about> the> > phenomenon called "precession of equinox" and thus the fear.> > Garga was a Jain sage, and the Jain religion originated and was> present> > even before this period.> >> > Parasara II (Near BC 1100)> >> > If Uttarayana starts before Sun touches the Sravana Nakshatra and if> > Dakshinayana starts before the sun touches Aslesha star then great> fear> > could happen. [Parasara II]> >> > This quote indicates that during the period of this parasara winter> > solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha> > Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of> > Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.> >> > Garga feels uncertain, but Parasara feels certain about his> observation> > and his quote is on affirmative. He is saying that one should fear not> > if Uttarayana starts in Dhanishta, but if it does not starts in> Sravana;> > because (as per his observation and as a natural rule of that period)> > Uttarayana should start in Sravana and NOT in Dhanishta. Here we get> the> > feeling that Parasara II was aware of the phenomenon of "precession> > of equinox". Actually being the quotes provided by the sages of the> > same period, his quote seems to be answer to the quote provided by> Garga> > I.> >> > Kasyapa (After BC 1400-1100; period uncertain)> >> > At some ancient period in the past Dakshinayana started at the middle> of> > Aslesha and Dakshinayana at the beginning of Dhanishta. This was NOT> due> > to any uncertainty involved, but happened as per rule (of planetary> > movements) [Kasyapa]> >> > From the words "At some ancient period", it is certain that at> > the period of Kasyapa it was not the case. Thus it is clear that> Kasyapa> > lived much after the ancient period BC 1400. It is evident that> Kasyapa> > knew well about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox" and> > also well aware that this happens as per the rule of planetary> > movements. There is no need that we should fear, since it is NOT an> > Utpata, (a fear injecting omen indicating a dreadful future event) but> > only a natural phenomenon. Kasyapa was a sage who lived in Kashmir.> > Possibly this Kasyapa lived after the period of Parasara II of BC> 1100.> >> > Parasara III (Around BC 626)> >> > Know that the Uttarayana starts at the end of Uttarashadha [Parasara> > III]> >> > From this it is evident that during his period winter solstice was at> > the end of Uttarashadha and summer solstice at the 3rd pada of Pushya> > Nakshatra. This is a fact around BC 626. From the bold statement of> > guidance such as `Know that' it can be assumed that he too knew> > well about the phenomenon of "precession of equinox".> >> > Important Observation> >> > From the above quoted literary historical evidence from BC 1500 to BC> > 600, the important point to note is that ? "During that period a> > fixed stellar zodiac was in use, as a fixed reference frame work to> note> > the movement of equinoxes, solstices, as well the movements of> planets.> > The movement of solstices were always notated by referring to their> > position in relation to this fixed framework i.e. Nakshatra Chakra".> > In other words, till BC 600 India was using Nakshatra Chakra as the> > reference frame work and NOT the Rasi Chakra. The origin of Rasi> chakra> > could be from sources outside India, or at least outside Vedic> > literature/culture.> >> > Around BC 300 Alexander attached India; a mix-up of western and> eastern> > knowledge happened. As far as DATABLE texts are concerned, the sign> > names such as Mesha, Vrishabha etc gets popularity in Indian> literature> > after this only. (I am NOT denying the antiquity of these words or> their> > use in ancient Indian literature. But such ancient texts like Skanda> > hora, Kausika hora etc DOES NOT provide any info which can used to> date> > such texts).> >> > The first datable quote that connects Signs with solstices> >> > In Pancha Siddhantika by Varaha Mihira we find the first quote that> > connects/correlates Rasis with the movement of solstices.> >> > Uttarayana and Sisira Ritu stats when Sun is at the beginning of> Makara> > Rasi (Capricorn). Each Ritu is of 2 months. Dakshinayana starts when> Sun> > is at beginning of Karkataka (Cancer) [Pancha Siddhantika AD 505]> >> > Around AD 505 period summer solstice is near the middle of Pushya.> This> > is certainly NOT the beginning of Cancer sign. Still Mihira tells us> > that Dakshinayana starts from the beginning of Cancer! Certainly the> > Zodiac referred/used by Mihira both in Pancha Siddhantica and Brihat> > Samhita is NOT Nirayana Zodiac but Sayana Zodiac. i.e. The Zodiac> (with> > moving signs) that stats counting signs from Vernal equinox, the> system> > that was used by Greek scholars like Ptolemy, the western astronomical> > system of zodiac! The fact that Mihira in at least 2 of his books> > mentions and uses Sayana Zodiac and NOT the Nirayana concept of Zodiac> > is a well evident and certain fact. This is absurd! Certainly this is> > NOT the original system of Indian Astrology/Astronomy. Even later day> > texts like Brahma Siddhnta follows this wrong path ? Indian> > astrology had already lost its correct path!> >> > Two signs each from Capricorn indicates seasons like Sisira, Vasanta,> > Greeshma, Varsha , Sarat and Hemanta. [brahma Siddhanta]> >> > Since the association with Nakshatra Chakra was already lost, since> the> > above quote refers to the Sayana Zodiac, the above quote is NOT AT ALL> > useful for determining the period of the text or quote. As per Sayana> > System the above quote would be true always! We could clearly> understand> > the reason for this path lost situation, since we know that the author> > of Brahma Siddhanta was the follower of Varaha Mihira.> >> > Back to the right track> >> > Nothing else is required to correct this mistake ? but only a look> > back at the concept of Aswinyadi and Meshadi presented in ancient> Agama> > (ancient non-vedic Indian texts) texts such as Skanda hora. We just> have> > to look back at this ancient stream of knowledge preserved and saved> by> > the Saiva sages as well as the Jains. There Rasi Chakra is NOT Sayana,> > but Nirayana. There Aswinyadi and Meshadi are not different by the> same,> > and refer to the same starting point and to the same fixed frame work!> > This is a going back to the ancient fixed Nakshatra chakra, to the> Vedic> > and non-vedic past, to the clear and logical reference frame. The Jain> > king Ballala Sena who knows this ancient truth, concludes the> discussion> > by providing us with the clear Nirayana position of the solstices at> his> > period of time (i.e AD 1269).> >> > Starting at the end minute of 20 degree in Dhanu (Sagittarius), the> > Ritus such as Sisira stats (in my period of Saka 1190) [Adbhuta> Jataka]> >> > Position of Winter solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in> Sagittarius> >> > Position of Summer solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Gemini> >> > The Jain king Bellala Sena started writing his excellent book Adbhuta> > Sagara during the saka year 1190 (AD 1269) as he himself clearly tells> > us in his book. On back calculation, we get that the Ayanamsa used by> > Ballala Sena is approx 22 degree for that period. This is a valuable> > clue! Those who are interested can calculate and find the> > Ballalasena's answer to the riddle of Ayanamsa and the starting> > point of Aries from this info! I request those who are interested in> > astronomical mathematics to arrive at the exact value and the Ayanamsa> > used by Ballala sena by following this clue, and analyze which> Ayanamsa> > system (CH or CP or whatever) followed by us followed by us today is> in> > tune with the Ayanamsa used by the ancient master Ballala Sena. Wish> you> > all happy calculation! > >> > - 0 -> >>

August 18, 2008

Hare rama krishna

dear sreenadh ji

sure ,i know it

pls if u read it i used this words in the post -but just i want to add few points

also we hav discussed it many times ,so this was a mail for grp ,tho adressed to u .

hope this clarifies

regrds sunil nair

om shreem mahalaxmai namah.

, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Sunil ji,> I NEVER argued that Ancient Indian Astrology with the Nirayana> Zodiac is some thing that was borrowed from Greeks or something like> that. It is well evident that Ancient Indian Astrology and the concept> of Mesha, Vrishabha etc signs is much older than that and also that> texts like Skanda hora dates back to the near vedic period. My only> arguments were that, the origin of such a system in India had a> NON-VEDIC/Agama origin and also that the currently available ancient> texts prior to BC 300 that discuss/mention the sign names (such as> Mesha, Vrishbha etc) are all NON-DATABLE texts. I was NEVER in favor of> the argument of Greek origin.> Also, please note that the use of Nakshtra chkra alone (even in Vedic> astrology) DOES NOT limit this subject and its application to Muhurta> fixing alone! My argument is that Nakshatra Chakra was used extensively> in ancient india for actual predictive purpose, in predictive astrology.> Hope this clarifies.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "sunil nair"> astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> >> > Hare rama krishna> >> >> >> > dear sreeandh ji> >> >> >> > good and nice write up .> >> >> >> > but just i want to add few points ,even if we agree astro was used in> > muhurthas and not for any thing like other propogate it in the name of> > that is vedic astrology and rest is brought frm yavans and the> > varhamihira and maya cheated indians etc .But my question is without a> > defenit yr and month ( solar month is rasi or rasi can get solar> months> > name too ) and ritu and ayanas pattern how they fix nakshratra ,thithi> > etc .And if they dont blv in predictiv part then what is the use of> > muhurtas just ornamental value ??> >> >> >> > In kerala we use one word for books as pustakam ( it is a protugese> > word gone frm india and come back and we use it ,even in hindi they> use> > it tho no portugese has any connection with north india >does it mean> > that till portugse came in we dont hav any books .)> >> > But ppl who find fault with any thing can say any thing .> >> >> >> > thanks for ur gr8 efforts> >> >> >> > regrds sunil nair> >> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah>

August 25, 2008

HinduCalendar , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dear Sreenadhji,

Thanks for the post regarding the above topic.

Thee has been a lot of discussion about Adbuta Sagara in the papers

of Dr. R. N. Iyengar. They are available in the files section of

this forum.

I have not seen the book myself. As such, I am unable to say

anything authoritatively regarding the same. Dr. Iynegar also

presumes that Parashara of Parashara Samhita could have been around

1300/1400 BCE. But according to him, the PS did not contain any

details about Saturn etc. planets nor anything about Mesha, Vrisha

etc. Rashis. He also feels that there have been several " layers " of

the PS written by several " Parasharas " .

The other two works which Dr. Iyengar had referred to in his

communications to me are the Atharva Jyotisha (a.k.a Atma Jyotisha)

as well as the Atharva-Veda-Parishishta. They also do not refer to

any Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis. The former work had been uploaded by

one of the members of this forum from ancient_Indian_astrology

whereas I had got the latter from Dr. Iyengar personally. AVP also

is available in the files section.

Thus it gets established conclusively that there are no Mesha etc.

rashis not only in any of the Vedas nor in any of the Vedangas, even

if we treat the Atharva-Jyotisha as a Vedanga, which I am very

reluctant to do!

It also gets established conclusively thus that the phalita jyotisha--

at least the Rashi based one---that is being followed these days is

anything but Vedic in spite of a lot of publicity by " Vedic

astrologers " to that effect.

I am glad that you have also confirmed the same quite unabiguously in

the following words

" In other words, till BC 600 India was using Nakshatra Chakra as the

reference frame work and NOT the Rasi Chakra. The origin of Rasi

chakra could be from sources outside India, or at least outside Vedic

literature/culture. "

Regarding Rashis having been imported into India from outside, there

also your veiws coincide with mine when you say

" Around BC 300 Alexander attacked India; a mix-up of western and

eastern knowledge happened. As far as DATABLE texts are concerned,

the sign names such as Mesha, Vrishabha etc gets popularity in Indian

literature after this only. (I am NOT denying the antiquity of these

words or their use in ancient Indian literature. But such ancient

texts like Skanda hora, Kausika hora etc DOES NOT provide any info

which can used to date such texts). "

Now coming to nakshatras: You have said

< From the above quoted literary historical evidence from BC 1500 to

BC 600, the important point to note is that ? " During that period a

fixed stellar zodiac was in use, as a fixed reference frame work to

note the movement of equinoxes, solstices, as well the movements of

planets. The movement of solstices were always notated by referring

to their position in relation to this fixed framework i.e. Nakshatra

Chakra>

Regarding the confusion as to whether nakshatra division is fixed or

movable, there should normally be no such dilemma! It is actually

created by jyotishis themselves and not the Vedas!

Nakshatras are comparatively " fixed " since their apparent motion is

infinitisimally small---though not negligible when calculated over

several centuries!

The confusion arises only when we try to find some " zero " point of

the nakshatras! And since it is invariably the Vernal Equinox for

all the observatories the world over there arises a confuson

of " fixed " versus " moving " .

As is common knowledge by now, it is the VE that keeps on precessing

every year! Actually, it is not only the VE but all the four

cardinal points viz. the two Equinoxes and the two Solstices also

keep on precessing! Now that the " zero " of the nakshatras is the

Vernal Equinox, the precession of the same gets transposed to the

Stars! This will be clear from the Vasishtha program in the files

section!

For example, when we say that the longitude of Alpha Delphini

(Svalocin) Dhanishtha-II star was 270Â° 22' 36 " as on January 1, 1400

BCE---the date of the Vedanga Jyotisha---it means that it was so from

the mean Equinox and Equator of that date! And that is why and how

it gets established that the Winter Solstice was in exact conjunction

of that Star on that date of the Vedanga Jyotisha since that i.e. the

Winter Sosltice has always a longitude of 270 degrees from the VE of

that date whereas the longitudes of Alpha Delphini and Beta Delphini

could not remain around 270Â° for more than about a century plus or

minus from the VE of 1400 BCE! This will be clear from the fact that

the longitude of the same Alpha Delphini and Beta Delphini stars as

on Jan 1, 2000 AD was 317 and 316 degrees respectively

(approximately) as per the FK5 Star catalogue but that was from the

Mean EQuator and Equinox of January 1, 2000 AD.

No doubt, the apparent motion of the stars also does play havoc

about " phalita jyotisha ayanamshas " but only after a pretty long time

as it has done with the Star Chitra--since beause of the its

apparenet motion even the nirayana Chitra is not in niryana Lahiri

Tula Rashi now but in Lahiri Kanya! In fact it was so even in N. C.

Lahiri's time but he just avoided that issue like a plague!

That means the Chitra based ayanamsha is the worst type of farce--

actually a cruel joke---that could have been played by N. C. Lahiri

on the Saha Calendar Reform Committee as well the Lahiri jyotishis

since it is not 180 degrees away from even the " Lahiri Equinox " (even

if we created one such equinox!) of these days! And what is all the

more ironic is that these Lahiri-walas compel us to celebrate all our

festivals and muhurtas also on the basis of an imaginary Lahiri

Rashichakra!

Coming to your point regarding ayanamsha

<<I request those who are interested in astronomical mathematics to

arrive at the exact value and the Ayanamsa used by Ballala sena by

following this clue, and analyze which Ayanamsa system (CH or CP or

whatever) followed by us today is in tune with the Ayanamsa used by

the ancient master Ballala Sena.>

In any case, since for deciding the dates of festivals, fasts and

muhurtas, we do not need actually any Rashis whether Lahiri or Ramana

or Sayana etc., it is for phalita jyotishis to decide as to which

ayanamsha, if any, suits them better whether Chandra Hari or Lahiri

or Fagan or Yukeshwara or Ramana or even the zero!

With regards,

AKK

HinduCalendar , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> wrote:

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

>

> Adbhuta Samhita and the Period of Some Sages

>

> Written by Sreenadh OG

>

> I was going through the ancient text Adbhuta Samhita written by the

Jain

> king Ballala sena of 13th century AD. Some quotes that mention the

> position of winter and summer solstice at various periods as quoted

by

> many sages is present in the book and this unique info attracted my

> attention. The following write-up is based on the info provided by

this

> book alone.

>

> BC 1500-1400 (Vedanga Jyotisha of Sage Lagatha)

>

> The Uttarayana starts from beginning of Dhanishta and the

Dakshinayana

> from the middle of Aslesha. [Vedanga Jyotisha].

>

> As per this winter solstice is at the beginning of Dhanishta and the

> summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. This is a fact of BC 1500-

1400

> and thus the book Vedanga Jyotisha and the sage Lagatha dates back

to BC

> 1500-1400 period.

>

> The mention of middle point of Aslesha and the starting point of

> Dhanishta clarifies that the sage is speaking about the fixed

Nakshatra

> divisions and NOT about a particular star. (i.e. the fixed Nakshatra

> divisions and the Nakshatra chakra of 27 Nakshatras were in place at

> that time itself)

>

> Parasara I (BC 1500-1400)

>

> The Sishira Ritu is the period when Sun stays within the starting

point

> of Dhanishta Nakshatra and the end point of Revati Nakshatra. During

> Vasanta Ritu sun stays within the end point of Revati Nakshatra

and the

> end point of Rohini Nakshatra. Sun stays between - starting point of

> Mrigasira Nakshatra and the middle of Aslesha Nakshatra during

Greeshma

> Ritu; middle point of Aslesha and end point of Hasta during Varsha

Ritu.

> From the starting point of Chitra to the middle of Jyeshta it is

Sarat

> Ritu and from the middle of Jyeshta to the end of Sravana it is

Hemanta

> Ritu. [Parasara I]

>

> This quotes also tells us that the winter solstice is at the

beginning

> of Dhanishta and the summer solstice at the middle of Aslesha. As

told

> earlier, this is a fact of BC 1500-1400 and thus the period of Sage

> Parasara I dates back to BC 1500-1400 period.

>

> Garga I (Near BC 1100)

>

> If the Uttarayana starts and Sun returns after touching the

Nakshatra

> near Dhanishta (i.e. after touching Sravana), and if Dakkshinayana

> starts before sun touches Aslesha Nakshatra then great fear could

arise.

> [Garga I]

>

> This quote indicates that during the period of this Garga winter

> solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha

> Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of

> Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.

>

> Garga feels great fear and uncertainty due the fact that ancient

sastras

> are violated. As per the ancient text he read, (could be texts like

> Vedanga Jyotisha) the Uttarayana should start when Sun is at the

> beginning of Dhanishta and Dakshinayana should start when sun is at

the

> middle of Aslesha, but alas this was not happening during his

period. He

> was worried because as evident from this quote, he was unaware

about the

> phenomenon called " precession of equinox " and thus the fear. Garga

was a

> Jain sage, and the Jain religion originated and was present even

before

> this period.

>

> Parasara II (Near BC 1100)

>

> If Uttarayana starts before Sun touches the Sravana Nakshatra and if

> Dakshinayana starts before the sun touches Aslesha star then great

fear

> could happen. [Parasara II]

>

> This quote indicates that during the period of this parasara winter

> solstice was in Sravana Nakshatra and summer solstice was in Aslesha

> Nakshatra. If we assume that Summer solstice was at the beginning of

> Aslesha Nakshatra then this is a fact around BC 1100.

>

> Garga feels uncertain, but Parasara feels certain about his

observation

> and his quote is on affirmative. He is saying that one should fear

not

> if Uttarayana starts in Dhanishta, but if it does not starts in

Sravana;

> because (as per his observation and as a natural rule of that

period)

> Uttarayana should start in Sravana and NOT in Dhanishta. Here we

get the

> feeling that Parasara II was aware of the phenomenon of " precession

of

> equinox " . Actually being the quotes provided by the sages of the

same

> period, his quote seems to be answer to the quote provided by Garga

I.

>

> Kasyapa (After BC 1400-1100; period uncertain)

>

> At some ancient period in the past Dakshinayana started at the

middle of

> Aslesha and Dakshinayana at the beginning of Dhanishta. This was

NOT due

> to any uncertainty involved, but happened as per rule (of planetary

> movements) [Kasyapa]

>

> From the words " At some ancient period " , it is certain that at the

> period of Kasyapa it was not the case. Thus it is clear that Kasyapa

> lived much after the ancient period BC 1400. It is evident that

Kasyapa

> knew well about the phenomenon of " precession of equinox " and also

well

> aware that this happens as per the rule of planetary movements.

There is

> no need that we should fear, since it is NOT an Utpata, (a fear

> injecting omen indicating a dreadful future event) but only a

natural

> phenomenon. Kasyapa was a sage who lived in Kashmir. Possibly this

> Kasyapa lived after the period of Parasara II of BC 1100.

>

> Parasara III (Around BC 626)

>

> Know that the Uttarayana starts at the end of Uttarashadha [Parasara

> III]

>

> From this it is evident that during his period winter solstice was

at

> the end of Uttarashadha and summer solstice at the 3rd pada of

Pushya

> Nakshatra. This is a fact around BC 626. From the bold statement of

> guidance such as `Know that' it can be assumed that he too knew well

> about the phenomenon of " precession of equinox " .

>

> Important Observation

>

> From the above quoted literary historical evidence from BC 1500 to

BC

> 600, the important point to note is that ? " During that period a

fixed

> stellar zodiac was in use, as a fixed reference frame work to note

the

> movement of equinoxes, solstices, as well the movements of planets.

The

> movement of solstices were always notated by referring to their

position

> in relation to this fixed framework i.e. Nakshatra Chakra " . In other

> words, till BC 600 India was using Nakshatra Chakra as the reference

> frame work and NOT the Rasi Chakra. The origin of Rasi chakra could

be

> from sources outside India, or at least outside Vedic

> literature/culture.

>

> Around BC 300 Alexander attacked India; a mix-up of western and

eastern

> knowledge happened. As far as DATABLE texts are concerned, the sign

> names such as Mesha, Vrishabha etc gets popularity in Indian

literature

> after this only. (I am NOT denying the antiquity of these words or

their

> use in ancient Indian literature. But such ancient texts like Skanda

> hora, Kausika hora etc DOES NOT provide any info which can used to

date

> such texts).

>

> The first datable quote that connects Signs with solstices

>

> In Pancha Siddhantika by Varaha Mihira we find the first quote that

> connects/correlates Rasis with the movement of solstices.

>

> Uttarayana and Sisira Ritu stats when Sun is at the beginning of

Makara

> Rasi (Capricorn). Each Ritu is of 2 months. Dakshinayana starts

when Sun

> is at beginning of Karkataka (Cancer) [Pancha Siddhantika AD 505]

>

> Around AD 505 period summer solstice is near the middle of Pushya.

This

> is certainly NOT the beginning of Cancer sign. Still Mihira tells us

> that Dakshinayana starts from the beginning of Cancer! Certainly the

> Zodiac referred/used by Mihira both in Pancha Siddhantica and Brihat

> Samhita is NOT Nirayana Zodiac but Sayana Zodiac. i.e. The Zodiac

(with

> moving signs) that stats counting signs from Vernal equinox, the

system

> that was used by Greek scholars like Ptolemy, the western

astronomical

> system of zodiac! The fact that Mihira in at least 2 of his books

> mentions and uses Sayana Zodiac and NOT the Nirayana concept of

Zodiac

> is a well evident and certain fact. This is absurd! Certainly this

is

> NOT the original system of Indian Astrology/Astronomy. Even later

day

> texts like Brahma Siddhnta follows this wrong path - Indian

astrology

> had already lost its correct path!

>

> Two signs each from Capricorn indicates seasons like Sisira,

Vasanta,

> Greeshma, Varsha , Sarat and Hemanta. [brahma Siddhanta]

>

> Since the association with Nakshatra Chakra was already lost, since

the

> above quote refers to the Sayana Zodiac, the above quote is NOT AT

ALL

> useful for determining the period of the text or quote. As per

Sayana

> System the above quote would be true always! We could clearly

understand

> the reason for this path lost situation, since we know that the

author

> of Brahma Siddhanta was the follower of Varaha Mihira.

>

> Back to the right track

>

> Nothing else is required to correct this mistake ? but only a look

back

> at the concept of Aswinyadi and Meshadi presented in ancient Agama

> (ancient non-vedic Indian texts) texts such as Skanda hora. We just

have

> to look back at this ancient stream of knowledge preserved and

saved by

> the Saiva sages as well as the Jains. There Rasi Chakra is NOT

Sayana,

> but Nirayana. There Aswinyadi and Meshadi are not different by the

same,

> and refer to the same starting point and to the same fixed frame

work!

> This is a going back to the ancient fixed Nakshatra chakra, to the

Vedic

> and non-vedic past, to the clear and logical reference frame. The

Jain

> king Ballala Sena who knows this ancient truth, concludes the

discussion

> by providing us with the clear Nirayana position of the solstices

at his

> period of time (i.e AD 1269).

>

> Starting at the end minute of 20 degree in Dhanu (Sagittarius), the

> Ritus such as Sisira stats (in my period of Saka 1190) [Adbhuta

Jataka]

>

> Position of Winter solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in

Sagittarius

>

> Position of Summer solstice (at that period) = 20 degree in Gemini

>

> The Jain king Bellala Sena started writing his excellent book

Adbhuta

> Sagara during the saka year 1190 (AD 1269) as he himself clearly

tells

> us in his book. On back calculation, we get that the Ayanamsa used

by

> Ballala Sena is approx 22 degree for that period. This is a valuable

> clue! Those who are interested can calculate and find the

Ballalasena's

> answer to the riddle of Ayanamsa and the starting point of Aries

from

> this info! I request those who are interested in astronomical

> mathematics to arrive at the exact value and the Ayanamsa used by

> Ballala sena by following this clue, and analyze which Ayanamsa

system

> (CH or CP or whatever) followed by us followed by us today is in

tune

> with the Ayanamsa used by the ancient master Ballala Sena. Wish you

all

> happy calculation! .

>

--- End forwarded message ---

August 26, 2008

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

HinduCalendar , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved@> wrote: