A good article on Indus/ Sarasvati

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Dear Phyllis ji, Any reference to the river Sarasvati creates one prime confution - which river you are refering to? There are 2 rivers, which of them is the Vedic Sarasvati river - about this everyone is confuced. 1) The river Ghaggar-Hakra is combination of 2 tributeries Ghaggar and Hakra. Let us read a bit about them - * Ghaggar: The Ghaggar' is an intermittent river in India, flowing during the monsoon rains. It originates in the Shivalik Hills of Himachal Pradesh and flows through Punjab and Haryana to Rajasthan; just southwest of Sirsa in Haryana and by the side of talwara jheel in Rajasthan, this seasonal river feeds two irrigation canals that extend into Rajasthan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar-Hakra_River) * Hakra: The Hakra is the dried-out channel of a river in Pakistan that is the continuation of the Ghaggar River in India. Several times, but not continuously, it carried the water of the Sutlej during the Bronze Age period. Many settlements of the Indus Valley Civilisation have been found along the Ghaggar and Hakra rivers. Please note The Ghaggar-Hakra River is a believed to be an intermittent river in India and Pakistan that flows only during the monsoon season. This not a completly dried-up river even now. Ghaggar and Hakra deoes not completly satisfies the condition mentioned by the Later day (?) Vedic texts like Tandya (Pancavimsa) and Jaiminiya Brahmanas as well as the Mahabharata mention that the Sarasvati dried up in a desert. So which is the River that fully satisfies this condition? 2) Sarasvati River: There is a river which is still know as Sarasvati in India. The present-day Sarsuti Sarasvati River originates in a submontane region (Ambala district) and joins the Ghaggar near Shatrana in PEPSU. Near Sadulgarh (Hanumangarh) the Naiwal channel, a dried out channel of the Sutlej, joins the Ghaggar. Even though only a tributery of Satlaj, please note that this river completly satisfies the condition put forward in ancient texts that "Sarasvati dries out in Desert". The present day Sarasvati river dries out in Thar Desert. Actually to explain the situation many suggest the following solution - "Both 19th and 20th century fieldwork (Marc Aurel Stein and recent satellite imagery suggest that the Ghaggar-Hakra river in the undetermined past had the Sutlej and the Yamuna as its tributaries. Geological changes diverted the Sutlej towards the Indus and the Yamuna towards the Ganga, and the formerly great river (the Rann of Kutch is likely the remains of its delta) did not have enough water to reach the sea anymore and dried up in the Thar desert. This change is estimated by geologists to have occurred between 5000 and 3000 BC,[18] that is, before the Mature Harappan period. It is therefore proposed that the Sarasvati of the early Rigveda corresponds to the Ghaggar-Hakra before these changes took place (the "Old Ghaggar"), and the late Vedic end Epic Sarasvati disappearing in the desert to the Ghaggar-Hakra following the diversion of Sutlej and Yamuna." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_River) Another positive point regarding Ghaggar-Hakra is, It should be accepted that most of the Sindhu-Saraswati related settlements are found on the sides of this river. But the question still remains - whether the Vedic civilization is the same as Sindhu-Saraswati civilization - Or was it differnt? 3) Helmand river: This is a river in Afghanistan. Left leaning historians claim the early Sarasvati River in Afghanistan. "Most Left leaning historians suggestion for the identity of the early Rigvedic Sarasvati River include the Helmand River in Afghanistan, separated from the watershed of the Indus by the Sanglakh Range. This name was in turn Hellenized to Arachosia. The 1st century CE geographer Isidore of Charax referred to Arachosia, the land where the Arghandab and Helmand (Setumanta) flow, as White India. Although there is no proof that Haraxvaiti is actually referred to Helmand it is possible that Iranians are referring to Sarasvati when they talk about Haraxvaiti. Avesta (Fargard 1) mentions Haraxvaiti in connection with the 16 lands that the Iranians had wandered through before arriving at their final destination, which is their present homeland; it has also a direct reference to the Hapta Hindu which is the Vedic Saptasindhu, the land of the Seven Rivers." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_River) Please note that the River Helmand DOESNOT satisfy the condition of Sarasvati drying up in Desert etc.

What would be my opinian (even though not much relevent)? I don't think that Helmand in Afghanistan is a proper candidate. Certainly Ghaggar-Hakra (Along with Ghaggar, Hakra and many other tributeries) would be a good candidate at least for the Sindu-Sarasvati period, because all the Sindhu-Sarasvati settlements are in the banks of Ghaggar-Hakra. But how do we say that VEDAS also refer to the same river? Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization/culture and Vedic culture are thought to be entirely different things! If Vedas refer to mostly to only places within India, If Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization and Vedic civilization are different then probably Sarasvati is current day Sarsuti for sure. Then it should be assumed that Vedas are not refering to Sarasuti and not the Harappan Ghaggar-Hakra. When you mention that some Sarasvati river came to the surface, I belive that you are refering to the Harappan/Mohanjadaro Ghaggar-Hakra (which floods in mansoons) but still keeps the Vedic descriptions of Sarasvati in mind. Is it not a mixup? If not (if you are refering to Rajastan Sarsuti) then do you meant to say that Vedic Aryans was a minor tribe (of some big culture) who migrated from Rajastan-Hariyana to Ganges planes? Note: * When we refer to Sindhu-Sarasvati (Mohenjadaro-Harappan) civiliztion, we refer to Ghaggar-Hakra by the word Sarasvati. * Vedas refer to Sarasvati for sure. But for sure the Mohenjadaro-Harappan civilzation was NOT Vedic in nature!!!

So we are left to solve a puzzle...

References: 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_River 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar-Hakra_RiverLove and regards,Sreenadh

, "Phyllis Chubb" <phyllis wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh,> > > > Thank you so much for the links, they have worked this time and I am> thrilled.> > > > The article on the Saraswati River is the one I have read first. What I am> about to write certainly has no reference points however I am hoping that> someone can fill in the details. I remember reading, or hearing about a> prophecy that India would rise once the Saraswati river flowed again. I> think it was in 2000 when there was an earthquake that indeed brought the> Saraswati to the surface again and since that time India and her> philosophies and sciences have indeed been rising.> > > > If anyone can provide me with chapter and verse on these ideas I would> certainly appreciate it. If necessary, for whatever reason, anyone is> welcome to use my private site if they prefer.> > > > Thank you so much and bless you,> > > > Phyllis> > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of Sreenadh> July 17, 2008 2:27 AM> > Re: A good article on Indus> > > > Dear Phyllis ji, > 1) Go to the files section of the group: http://groups.> <>> > > 2) Go inside the folder named "Ancient Indian Culture-History"> > 3) Download the file named "indus.pdf"> > OR > > Avoid all these steps and download the file by clicking the link :> http://groups.> <Ancient%20Indi> an%20Culture-History/indus.pdf>> Ancient%20Indian%20Culture-Hi> story/indus.pdf > > I have checked the link and file myself, it gets downloaded without any> problems.> Note: Anyway I had send the file in your personal id as well.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Phyllis Chubb"> phyllis@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh,> > > > > > > > When I went to find the article on the Indus civilization I was greeted> with> > this: The requested file or directory is not found on the server. > > > > > > > > Would it please be possible to send me that article as I am most> interested> > in this topic.> > > > > > > > Thank you,> > > > > > > > Phyllis Chubb> > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > On Behalf Of Sreenadh> > July 15, 2008 10:27 PM> > > > A good article on Indus> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > A good article about Indus civilization is uploaded by Jaya ji in the> > files section of the group. The link is: http://groups.> >> <Ancient%20Indi> > an%20Culture-History/indus.pdf >> >> Ancient%20Indian%20Culture-Hi> > story/indus.pdf > > Those who are interested - please check it.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com> > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.11/1554 - Release 7/15/2008> > 6:03 PM> >> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1556 - Release 7/16/2008> 4:56 PM>