Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Dear Nickie ji, There is no such documented debates available - but the books or quotes from all these sages are available. They are our source and reference in understanding the opinion differences. Note: You should avoid using the word 'vedic astrology' because that is an erroneous name to use. Many of these schools were not vedic in any way at all - and clearly nonvedic - such as Jain school. Actually the whole of Nirayana astrology is Non-vedic. As of 'vedic astrology' (if you really mean the same), it is the Tropical astronomy + Stellar astrology present in Vedas, Upanishads, Epics and Puranas. We don't have any details of different schools in it (but we will try collecting the info). What this group does is one of the first effort to properly document and present 'vedic astrology' - we have just started it only, and in due course we will prepare clear documents and outlines of vedic astrology with proper references from ancient texts mentioned above. 'Vedic astrology' is a subject yet to be properly studied, researched or documented by scholars - it was never done till date - and it will happen in here in due course. Love, Sreenadh , Nickie Jan Scott <n.scott wrote: > > Dear Sreenadh, > Is there a history of debates during these time periods you are > talking about between the different schools and lineages of Vedic > astrology? If so were any of these debates documented? I have read > that at times in India that philosophical schools would have debates > and that which ever school lost the debates would convert over to the > winning schools philosophy. Was this true in Vedic culture too? > Thanks for so much history lessons. Peace. Nickie Scott > On Oct 16, 2007, at 6:57 AM, Sreenadh wrote: > > > Dear Arjun ji, > > I agree with you - all indians are equal (psychologically) - or > > rather all the people in the world are equal and similar in the above > > sense. > > We are not against anything - but just discussing the subjects > > based on facts as revealed by references. I will try uploading some > > references with original quotes from Ramayana in coming days. > > ==> > > > even though shivapurana and other holy scriptures mention lord > > > subrahmanya as the son of shiva > > <== > > Dear Arjun ji, things are not that simple always. Do you know that > > Subrahmanya, Kartikeya and Muruka are different deities (which merged > > in to one in todays view) worshiped by different people in different > > periods of time? The same is true for Ganapati and Pillar. The same > > is true for Ayyappa and Sasta - the same is true for many others. > > Even when the names are same there could be differences - for > > example the Tantric Siva and Puranic Siva are entirely different > > concepts worshiped by different people; The Rudra of vedas is yet > > different. If we want to see all of them as one - it is good - as far > > as spirituality is concerned, but not in a search of history. > > If we look at the indian culture it is easily noticeable that the > > vedic culture merged into the original tantric culture that was > > present throughout india. For example > > * Tanta promotes temples - but vedic culture does not. > > Later day vedic culture even started supporting temple worship, and > > created their own new gods - especially vishnava deities. But look at > > the number of temples in India - which are most in number? You will > > see many - > > * Siva temples > > * Chandika (Kali or Bhagavati) temples > > * Snake worship > > * Hanuman temples > > But you will note that temples for Rama, Krishna, Vishnu etc are > > comparatively few. But what is astonishing the rare number of temples > > found for the true Vedic gods - Indra, Mirtra, Varuna and so on. > > Temples for Vedic deities are rare - almost to the point of nil! > > Yah, that is history - but considering spirituality - we can say > > that all gods are one - or that only divinity exists - that is > > spirituality. Both are good in their own context. > > It is not something about Ram or Ravana or something about religion. > > But rather we are just simply checking the background of a literary > > text (like any other text), presenting our observations, and > > discussing the subject of astrology contained in it. > > It is just an impartial, passive discussion of a mere simple text > > written by some one at some period of time. I will request the > > readers of my post not to take things personally, or religiously. And > > what ever I say it is simply just my views - and I have all rights to > > hold my views. I am compelling none to follow the same - but simply > > presenting my views - on Astrology contained in Ramayana. Some > > related views may come - if you like it accept it, if not reject it. > > That is all to it. > > If someone (of course not you!) wants to go for name calling and so > > on... hell with him! He simply does not know - what and which and > > where he is responding - or in other words he is simply lacking the > > context. > > ==> > > > ravana is the son of visrasrava who is the son of pulastya who is > > > the son of brahma. ravana wrote a samhita which explains astrology > > > and medicine. ravana is NOT a rakshasa as is made out by the > > > modern historians. > > <== > > Who ever Ravana be (whether he existed or not - I am not bothered)- > > I know that - > > * Many beautiful Slokas & poems that worship Siva is available whose > > authorship is attributed to Ravana. > > * There is a book called Ravana Samhita that deals with astrology > > and medicine > > * Several techniques and details in palmistry is attributed to Ravana > > * Several tunes in classical music is attributed to Ravana > > Of course I am interested in all these bits of available knowledge, > > but not in stupid fights saying 'I am in the side of Ravana' or > > that 'I am in the side of Rama'. That is stupid - Rama is good in his > > own place and Ravana in his - i.e. as mere characters in a literary > > work. Three is no point in trying mix actual history with imaginative > > stories - what we should be interested in is the actual knowledge > > (whether of astrology, architecture, medicine or what ever it is) > > present in those books. > > > > ==> > > > i preach and practice that one shall respect all indians alike > > > without dividing india into two, based on cultures. > > <== > > Dear Arjun ji, it is good to see you taking sudden defense.. But > > of me I don't preach or practice any such thing, specially about > > indians. The whole world is one and people are alike - all the > > barriers created by religion, caste and national boundaries are > > irrelevant. So the respect to indians is the same as respect to > > american or african - it all just simply melts down to respect (or > > better feeling one with) a fellow human being. > > But when discussing things it is better to present and discuss > > things in their own light. And then may be we may not need such > > precautions or defenses - because their does not even arise a need to > > say that we are partial or impartial. > > Note: Thanks for the good mail. Mostly in the above mail, I was > > speaking to the whole group, and not specifically to you – and so > > this mail may contain many things that are not at all relevant to > > your post. Pardon me for that. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , " panditarjun2004 " > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > this is an interesting debate where we can throw more light based > > on > > > facts and not views. > > > > > > the tryst with destiny by king (lord) rama from ayodhya in the > > north > > > to rameswaram in the south is in the same breadth as the adi > > > sanakara's journey from kerala to badrinath in himalayas. > > > > > > the entire bharat (india) is equally holy and no part is inferior > > or > > > superior. it is a consistent fact over decades that the northern > > > states like UP, MP and Bihar continue to suffer from illiteracy and > > > uneducation while the southern states continue to boast of having > > > more than 90% of total private engineering and medical colleges in > > > the country. the theory of aryans as superior to dravidians holds > > no > > > water in any parameter. > > > > > > let me make it clear that i treat all indians alike and expect all > > > sane people to treat so. > > > > > > in my two decades of experience in the north, what i found was that > > > what is most known to all is ramcharit manas and not ramayan. the > > > author of ramcharit manas was helping hindus unite against the > > > invading muslims and during his days thousands of hanuman temples > > > were built where men were taught wrestling etc. slowly ramcharit > > > manas recital has become a daily practice and it united all hindus > > > against invading muslims akin to vandemataram united all indians > > > against british rule. > > > > > > in my last mail i was lamenting that the present government has > > > accepted both the last invaders (british as well as moghuls) as > > > history and brushed aside the earlier RULERS as mythology. these > > > invaders did not invade an empty land but usurped a rich kingdom. > > > > > > even though shivapurana and other holy scriptures mention lord > > > subrahmanya as the son of shiva, most north indians believe only > > > ganesha as the son of lord shiva. even today in the north most > > > photos of shiva, parvati and ganesha are sold and worshipped > > whereas > > > in the south shiva,parvati, ganesha and subrahmanya are > > worshipped. > > > i dont expect the modern historians to brand lord subrahmanya as a > > > dravidian. > > > > > > ravana is seen as an evil and some northern people enjoy and > > > celebrate the burning of ravana. in reality ravana is the son of > > > visrasrava who is the son of pulastya who is the son of brahma. > > > ravana wrote a samhita which explains astrology and medicine. > > ravana > > > is NOT a rakshasa as is made out by the modern historians. > > > > > > these practices apart, i preach and practice that one shall respect > > > all indians alike without dividing india into two, based on > > cultures. > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > pandit arjun > > > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kumar ji, > > > > You are right. The kings of Bangal and Orissa (Eastern cost of > > > > India) believed that they are the decedents of Vali (The Ape > > > brother > > > > of Sugreeva as per Ramayana). The Dravidians are blamed by > > Ramayana > > > > as Apes. Thus in short Ramayana is a political text created by > > > Sunga > > > > Brahmanic kings to Disgrace the people outside his country > > (Eastern > > > > cost of India & South India) and other religions (Buddha & Jain) - > > > > > > i.e. It is a political text with a purpose created around 2nd > > > century > > > > AD. > > > > ==> > > > > can there be a conclusion that hanuman,vali and sukriv and all > > the > > > > apes warrior who fought along with rama as dravidians. > > > > <== > > > > No - because first of all there was no such war happened around > > > 2nd > > > > century AD. If the sunga brahmins were modifying some ancient > > story > > > > in which a North Indian king fought with a SriLankan king with > > the > > > > help of Dravidian people - then too, it should be concluded that, > > > in > > > > 2nd century the original text and story got totally corrupted and > > > > rewritten - name calling those Dravidian and Eastern people as > > > > Monkeyes and Buddha Thief - and Buddhists and Jainist as people > > > > without morel who should be trotured. But note that the caste > > > > brahmins and caste Kshetriya people who were boasting of their > > > > culture were following stupid fertility rituals like - the prime > > > wife > > > > of King making sex with (doing intercourse with) the sacrifical > > > horse > > > > (which would be slayed later) in Aswamedha, cooking the testacies > > > of > > > > the horse and the queens inhaling the smoke from it when the same > > > is > > > > put in fire, due to the superstition that the same will give > > > children > > > > and so on. Valmiki Ramayana tells us that even Kausalya the > > mother > > > of > > > > Rama followed all these rituals such as sleeping with animal and > > so > > > > on. > > > > If we think that the available ramana is a corrupted (by fanatic > > > > caste brahmins) version of an ancient actual event which took > > place > > > > in the post, then your conclusion such as " may be they are trying > > > to > > > > shadow the contribution of dravidians to the great lord himself > > to > > > > destroy ravana " could be right. > > > > ==> > > > > if it is so and then dravidian cultures contribution to the epics > > > are > > > > being literally forsaken? > > > > <== > > > > Yes, you are right. The earliest Tamil writings dates back to > > BC > > > > 3rd century and the earliest Devenagari writings dates back to BC > > > 2nd > > > > century only. Of course Vedic culture (which might have used > > Brahmi > > > > or Proto-Brahmi) dates back to BC 3000 or so. The dravidian > > culture > > > > never grow to the heights of non-vedic Harappan culture, but > > dates > > > > back to at least 1st or 2nd millennium BC. The culture of South > > > India > > > > and Dravidians is actually a mix of several groups such as - > > > > * The ancient original Dravidian culture > > > > * The Jain religion and culture > > > > * The Buddist religion and culture > > > > * The cultural contributions of Naga worshipers (Ahi Kula) who > > > > migrated to south india from Gujarat. > > > > * The people with vedic beliefs and culture migrating to south > > > india. > > > > There could be many other contributing factors as well - both > > > > ancient and medieval. South Indian or Dravidian culture is a > > mixed > > > > culture - the original roots going back to gods such > > > > as 'Mayon', 'Ayyan', 'Ayiravilli', 'Pilleyar','Muruka' etc almost > > > > already forgotten or redefined as per invading beliefs. The > > concept > > > > about universe as per the original dravidian culture was as a > > flat > > > > surface with 4 mountains at four sides and 'Vetala' sleeping in > > the > > > > sky above and snakes ruling the world below earth and sea. A > > unique > > > > island in the sea and a silver Deer (Velli man), A silver stone, > > > The > > > > snake stone in the island, the divine goddess are all of unique > > > > importance. There is yet to happen a detailed research on the > > > ancient > > > > original Dravidian culture and its beliefs. What now a days > > > > considered as Dravidian is NOT dravidian but a mix of > > contributions > > > > of cultural streams mentioned above. > > > > Yes, many things gets forsaken in the flow of time; the time and > > > > turbulence does not wait for anything and the change > > continues.... > > > > Many things gets forgotten many things not much > > important...change > > > > and life continues... > > > > Love, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > , hit man > > > > <hit_man334@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear sreenadh ji, > > > > > i came across some mails > > that > > > > refers to this brahminic kings who adressed the peoples of the > > > > eastern coast and southern indian coast as monkeys or vanaras in > > > > their texts, if that is so and these people were the ones who > > > rdited > > > > ramayana in the 2nd century AD , can there be a conclusion that > > > > hanuman,vali and sukriv and all the apes warrior who fought along > > > > with rama as dravidians. may be they are trying to shadow the > > > > contribution of dravidians to the great lord himself to destroy > > > > ravana. > > > > > can you please explain my > > > doubt ? > > > > if it is so and then dravidian cultures contribution to the epics > > > are > > > > being literally forsaken? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > KUMAR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from > > someone > > > > who knows. > > > > > Answers - Check it out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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