Fwd: A Debate: Are astrologers needed in the developing society?

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Remember this mail too.....................navlakshya , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:

Re: A Debate: Are astrologers needed in the developing society?

 

Dear Niladhri ji,I second sauvik ji in this regard. Thanks for the excellentinnovative and interesting ideas.Love,Sreenadhnavlakshya , "Souvik Dutta"<explore_vulcan wrote: Excellent Niladhri! We want more views from silent members like yourself. Thanks Souvik navlakshya , "Niladhri Nandi" <niladhri_nandi@ wrote: This is my first posting on the group. The topic was too tempting for me to resist. Admit I must, that the question is extremely difficult for me to answer in straight terms. Partly for personal reasons though. I have frequently consulted astrologers (ofcourse I don't have any clue into its actual working) & quite often usedit to reap some advantages. On the other hand Swami Vivekananda happens to be the role model of my life. An absolute rock star for me - too perfect to say anything that is even remotely untrue. So without getting into too much of a dispute let me make some unbiased points here: ?Astrology (as far as I know) tries to predict future happenings using planetary motions & positions. Many other forms of prediction exist which employ other techniques (palmistry, face readingetc). However to connect the "urge to predict future" with the development (read scientific development) of mankind is a little tricky. Infact, in the present age ofhigh tech, we are far more interested in managing the future than we ever were. Than be it predicting the stock markets, the credit worthiness of your client, the possibility of a company going bust or say predicting a hurricane or earthquake. All these are quite commonplace problems to day. Only the tools & their relative accuracies have changed but the underlying urge remains the same. The tools today are genetic algorithm, artificial neuralnetworks, fuzzy logic, statistical techniques etc. Comparing these techniques with astrology can be a different debate altogether. ?But why this urges to predict? At one level, it is actually the urge to control the material nature & secure your future existence. "Managing risk" is a common phrase signifying this. However notable here is that prediction is only part of the game. What is more important is the planning that follows, to reducethe effect of an undesirable outcome or many a times turn it into a position of opportunity. Say, we know for sure that next month we have an impending hurricane. The hurricane cannot be averted but people can be moved to safer places & lives can be saved. This is where the remarkable shift developed societies have brought. Astrology as a tool may be a couple of notches ahead of any ofour present day tools. However we need to believe that human spiritis indomitable-given an adversity we will always find a solution. Having said that, individuals need to work to instill thisspirit. This is what perhaps the wise Swami also wanted to say. Users of astrology need to therefore see their endeavors in this light. ?This brings us to the final question- Does free will exist? Will there be a day when home sapiens have absolute control onmaterial nature? This again is a topic of wide ranging debate amongst philosophers .If the answer is no, we can argue that all prediction games are actually useless & it is better to stick to present & give your best. In the Swami's words "we don't have control on the material world, but there is something beyond this, on which we definitely have control on". Here he indirectly hints at thehuman quest for freedom. Evolutionary biology too proves it. From sulphur consuming uni cellulars to homo sapiens with a highly developed neo cortex -the journey has been one of freedom .Thus again, any body of knowledge should enable us to break free from our surroundings & should not aim at controlling it. Does astrology help us do that?

 

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Even very long mails are sometimes not that long.......navlakshya , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:

Re: A Debate: Are astrologers needed in the developing society?

Dear Vinita ji,When I wrote my message for the second time, after posting it, Ifelt that it has a twinge of personal observations. In a astrologydiscussion it could have been avoided - please pardon. My love andregards to you. We will together try to go into the depths of thetheoretic puzzles you put forward - But I am a slow speed person.Even preparing a small mail takes a lot of time for me. And it couldbe a problem in our search for answers.Dear Sauvik ji, Vinita ji and All others,There is many subjects we should have clear idea about, such as-1) The base and system Science and holistic subjects2) Concepts and research done related to Para Psychology, Dowsing,Hart man Roads, Aura, Raiki......etc3) Understanding of the basics of Vastu, Yoga, Ayurveda etc4) Clear syllabus and subject matter of Astrologyetc. Can't we together create a detailed study syllabus and assignthe duty of -1) learning the presenting the basic concepts in it for the benefitof all.2) correlating such knowledge with our current knowledge (especiallyrelated to science)I think it is a duty some body should undertake.Love,Sreenadhnavlakshya , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote: Dear Vinita ji, Study of astrology is definitely fascinating....but what is the end / objective? When we play, do we ask - what is the objective? When we live, dowe ask - what is the objective? We play for the joy of living, we live for the joy of living. Similarly we learn for the joy of learning. Forget the questionon objective and enjoy! Yes, individuals like author of Krishneeya says that "It is asystem for prediction". If you want to quench you thirst on this questionof objective, you can take that answer. what is the objective? So in this day what is the use of astrology? when they should be beating with time?). What is Karma? Is it possible to grasp the fourth dimension thru study of astrology. is this possible????? maybe even time can bend to the call of a mantra, who knows? how to compute the curvature of time with precision? Are we wasting time? Too many questions you ask!!! And most of those questions saysthat you want want everything to be utility based!! It mainly says something about you, and not about the subject you ask about!!! I have heard that the world and almost all therelations are utility based. And also that in the course we forget ouroriginal sense, and start beliving what the current world imposs on uslosing the true internal freedom of thought and expression. Just a passing thought... OK. I appreciate the questions asked. I have heard that "Askingthe right question is at the base of true research". Actually I feel that you should take each of those questions, and then ask to it - is it a right question? Even a single rightquestion asked, and if we sincerely seek answer to it, it can change ourlife, it can change our outlook, one can write many books on the same,and one would be inventor of many new things! But the problem is we always ask, and never seek! We always ask, but never take time to ponder and spend enough time for a single question, and take timeto verify whether it is a right question! We always ask, and expect others to provide the answers! We ask, about intricacies of the subjects we haven't yet studied properly, and don't want to waste time even to listen to the answers, because we are more after the objective / the result of that exercise! Actually we don't want the answers but the results! Actually we don't want the answers,because we are enjoying in our ability to ask questions! How twisted themind is - it cheats the one who owns it!! If we ask - What is Mind - can we get an answer? If we ask - What is Life - can we get an answer? If we ask - What is Soul - can we get an answer? If we ask - What is GOD - can we get an answer? Yes, we can go on speaking about the things we don't know completely. And thus all definitions would be erroneous. Simply take the question- Can we describe the color green to a person who is color blind? Would those descriptions be sufficient? If we say that it is acolor- are we conveying anything to him? If we say that it is color of an electro magnetic ray with a particular wave length are we conveying anything to him? Can we describe light to a person who is blind? If we say that light is composed of photons are conveyinganything? If we say that light causes plants to do photo synthesis are we conveying anything? "Answers on concepts are always imperfect"!!! If the collective consciousness of the 2 persons have the same idea within about that then only some thing gets conveyed!!! The pity is there is only 2 things in the world - facts and concepts. Even facts goes into the mind through sensation and perception and become concepts!! So the whole knowledge becomes imperfect! - But still we can enjoy life, love, learning and following our inquisitiveness. If we want to mystify - everythingis a mystery - without exception!!! 1) Past events can be predicted more easily (perhaps)....they have already happened. But what about future where the real challenges lie. 2) Astrology is a fantastic tool which may make us get fleeting glimpses of the REALITY (perhaps) 3) But to use astrology to make predictions about one's own future or somebody else's future may not be the best way to spend time (perhaps). 4) Now what is karma is another thing (perhaps) ) There is too many (perhaps) and you should better learn tolive with it. ) PS: If sincere, take a single question at a time, and let us join hands to - 1) Think about them. 2) Collect and present the answers for that question for the benefit of all. 3) Make tools and logical systems to test/verify the ideas. etc. I feel that is the right path of enquiry. Love, Sreenadh navlakshya , "vinita kumar" <shankar_mamta@ wrote: Dear Souvik, Shreenadh, all, Shreenadh says Astrology is Kala Tantra...a means of knowingtime. The world as we can grasp it is three dimensional. The moment the 4th dimension of time is introduced it is so difficult to conceptualise it. But even so, if some people can grasp thefourth dimension thru study of astrology it would be a great thing. The question is ..... is this possible????? Is this possible with the tools of astrology present with us...or something more isrequired? First is the question of time of birth. The kind of prolonged excercises that are undertaken even when computers do all the calculations...and what for? when we dont even know the time of birth accurately? Maybe casting a prashna chart would be more accurate - but what should be the question and how to interpretthe answer when things are not always clear. So in this day what is the use of astrology? O.K. everyone wantsto know what the future holds for them. They want to beat time (when they should be beating with time?). Can time be beaten? But timeis not linear.... as they say in physics....if we are to track time how to compute its curvature with precision? Study of astrology is definitely fascinating....but what is the end / objective? To say something is to happen with 100 per cent accuracy 100 per cent of the time. Is this possible??? Past events can be predicted more easily (perhaps)....they have already happened. But what about future where the real challenges lie. How can we understand time? Souvik, u in your earlier posts usedto talk of macro and micro. The macro vision is nice and more predictable....the broad tendencies where margin of errors can be ignored because the picture is large. But to get an accuratemicro picture right all the time is what may not be possible for most mortals. Because in the micro world the dynamism is so great and the probabilities so immense...that it becomes a herculean task, ifnot an impossible task. There is the principle of uncertainty by Heisenberg which i dont understand...but have got only a whiff of...There is also the role of the observer in the experiements conducted in quanturm mechanics where the end result of the experiment is dependant on the observer...the sub-atomic world is sooooooo dynamic. So maybe even time can bend to the call of a mantra or the callof a sincere observer, who knows? We are all curious to know who we are and what is existence all about. Astrology is a fantastic tool which may make us getfleeting glimpses of the REALITY (perhaps). But to use astrology to make predictions about one's own future or somebody else's future may not be the best way to spend time (perhaps). I know on many counts this mail may sound offensive....though offending anyone is the last thing on my mind. Souvik said we can freeely express our opinion on this forum. An opinion may spring from very very limited knowledge as in my case. But i look at itas a way of exploring my beliefs which in any case are nothing muchto go on. But still they are there because of my present level of underdevelopment / ignorance.....and till there is someexperience of TRUTH which in any case i dont have the foggiest about. So are we wasting time when we should be spending time on other richer things like being totally involved in the present momentand doing our karma to the best of our ability??? Now what is karmais another thing (perhaps)........Are we doing a service or a disservice by reading the future of others or our own future when we all should be dealing with what time doles out to us with a happy acceptance of the inevitable? Thanks! Vinita navlakshya , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@ wrote: Dear Souvik ji, Every subject has its merit. Let us learn the subject, explore its scope, merits and demerits and then only, accept or discard it. Till then it is better to continue the study in a detached mannerbut still keep the inquisitiveness for knowledge and ideas. The process takes time and the first step is understanding the foundationsof the subjects at hand. If we don't do it then we don't have theright to criticize it as well! But this law is violated, when the other man has special purpose kept in his mind. For example, arationalist WILL criticize the religion with out following or trying tounderstand mediation or prayer. A person who wants to make the weakbelieve in their own mental power WILL discard and criticize all the subjects that is against this idea. (and thus Vivekananda) Buddha who wants common people to the ultimate faith that is GOD, WILL try to train people by discarding any other beliefs, that makes peoplebelieve in GOD. It is the PURPOSE that is acting behind - And NOT the true idea about the subject! That is why Buddha was a supporter of the "Theory of many births" - have a look at the "Bodhisatwa strories"! Neither Buddha nor Vivekananda studied astrology. Buddha wasan enlightened individual and the guru of Vivekananda, Ramakrishna parama hamsa was an enlightened individual. We are none to criticize the enlightened individuals, since we will surely fail to understand their place, since they are higher above us. What those enlightened individuals tell us about the atma, mind and the path of meditation is more important to us than there knowledge and understandingin technical subjects or there comments on astrology, vastru, ayurveda or anything else. With joined hands we bow before them, and let there advice show us the correct path in spirituality. Buddha said: "Those that get a living by calculation of the stars by suchart and other lying tricks are to be avoided" He is right, as we know even today - if astrology is used for money making and a livelihood by some, then selfishness is sure to rise, and pure knowledge will go astray. But yes, one more thing, an individual who believes in "Many births theory" can not discard astrology. But, yes, of course, Buddha was beyond all beliefsand i feel it is our understanding of Buddha is the problem here- the problem lies with us and not with Buddha. Yes, Right thought and Right action are better than running to the astrologer. After all what a common man expect from a good astrologer also just advice in the direction of Right thought and Right action in that particular situation I think. I don't think astrologyis better than the right thought and right action in a particular situation - especially when we are supposed to follow "Swadharma". But- (1) How to determine right thought and right action intechnical subjects? (2) How to determine right thought and right action inspiritual subjects? (3) How to determine right thought and right action inhundreds of practical issues/events? Some body needs help, and some note. Some of them who needshelp ran to the astrologer, and the astrologer try to do the same withall the knowledge and tools he poses. Yes, at times this has even a negative effect as well. But why the subject astrology should be cursed for this? As far as I know the Buddha and Jayne religions, gave adequate support to astrology, and same is the case with Hindu religion. Christ was not against astrology, and Arabic astrology is very popular. Astrology in essence does not have any relation to religion or caste. I think "Vivekanada" never studied astrology in its truespirit, and the purpose of his whole efforts were different. He was notafter enlightenment but after refining and renewing the Indians and their mentality. I would say - it is better to study astrology as a subject, clear the mind with meditation for the right thought and right action to spring up in a flash from within, and live the usual andnatural life. Better not to believe in anything as Osho said, since when we say "I believe", it certainly means that there is a small amount of disbelief with in! We never used to say that "I believe in sun" because sun is a reality to us and only trust exists and no belief!! If we realize the truth of something then trust will emerge and then belief won't be a necessity. So it is better to advice, Don't believe in anything, no, not even in astrology. Not even in god. Whenit happens, or when the truth becomes revealed to you, then there onwards, belief will not be a necessity, because trust willtake over. I urge all NOT to believe in astrology, but still to study astrology, and feel its beauty. I urge all NOT to believe inGOD, but still to do meditation, and feel its beauty. Why worry - everybody said right only, but in their owncontext. So be happy, and enjoy life. Love, Sreenadh navlakshya , "Souvik Dutta" <explore_vulcan@ wrote: Dear members, Swami Vivekananda's words. "Excessive attention to the minutiae of astrology is one ofthe superstitions which has hurt the Hindus very much. Weak men, when they lose everything and feel themselves weak, try all sortsof uncanny methods of making money, and come to astrology andall these things. "It is the coward and the fool who says, 'This is fate'" - so says the Sanskrit proverb. But it is the strong man who stands up and says, "I will make my fate." Buddha says, "Those that geta living by calculation of the stars by such art and otherlying tricks are to be avoided"; and he ought to know, because hewas the greatest Hindu ever born. You will find that astrology andall these mystical things are generally signs of a weak mind; therefore as soon as they are becoming prominent in our minds, we shouldsee a physician, take good food and rest. " These were the wise words of Swami Vivekananda. Swami was highly critical of Astrology. " So what is the use of going to stars for explanation? " he would ask. " It is our duty to ignore them rather than hearken to them and make ourselves nervous. This I lay down as the first essential in all I teach: anything that brings spiritual, mental, or physical weakness, touch it not with the toes of your feet. If you want your nation to live, keep away from allthese things. These superstitious ideas are springing likemushrooms in your country. " I heard similar criticsm from Swami Ramdevji Maharaj where he criticized astrologers. Is there truth in the statement of these sages? What shouldbe the role of the astrologer in a exponentially developing society like that of India? Should there be some self-imposed restrictions observed by an astrologer? If so, what should be they? Upto what extent does an astrologer have the moral right to intrudeinto a native's chart? Does he/she have the right to do so? I would like to know the view of the respected members ofthis forum on this topic. Thanks Souvik --- End forwarded message ---