Ramayana - Contradictions

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Contradictions in Valmiki's Ramayana

 

I. Historical Contradictions between the Epics

Ramayana and Mahabharata have been looked upon as historical in content at least partially by historians and in recent years with the rise of Hindu nationalism, such a line of thinking has assumed a new vigor and recognition in academic and social circles. But centuries of research and archaeological works have not yielded any reliable clues as regarding the dates of either of the epics or the drama that encrypted in it. We are at a loss even in understanding as to which of the epic drama preceded the other. Mcdonnel and Raychaudhary had been at war in trying to prove the existence of one before the other and both had quoted the Epics to substantiate their respective scholarly view points. The historical conflict between the two topics remains unresolved as the scholars tend to reject the verses which do not suit them as interpolation. See the details below:

 

 

Ramayana before Mahabharata (Macdonnel)

(a) Drona-parva, Book VII (141,149) of the Mahabharata quotes Valmiki from Book VI of Ramayana.

(b) Book III of Mahabharata (Cantos 277-291) contains the Ramopakhyana (Episode of Rama).

 

 

Mahabharata befor Ramayana (Raychaudhary)

(a) Adikanda X.2-3 where Krsna Vasudeva is alluded to

(b) Ayodhya-kanda XIV.42, where Janamejayah appears as a king of the bygone era

© Ayodhya-kanda XXX.6 and Sundarakanda XXIV.11-12, where we find Satyavan and Savitri of Mahabharata fame

(d) Sundarakanda which mentions the characters of the Nalopakhyana of Mahabharata

(e) Kiskindha-kanda XIII.28 mentioning the acquisition of Pa´ncajanya by Krsna

(f) Lanka-kanda CXIX.15-27, which identifies Krsna with Rama

(g) Lanka-kanda XIX.32; Mahabharata II.41.9: `Parigrhyagirim dorbhyam vapur Visnor vidambayan'.

 

So both the historians have proved their points as the Epics have contradictory contents. According to the above quotes from Ramayana given by Raychaudhary Valmiki was quite familiar with the Pandu story and other characters of Mahabharata.

 

How can this be possible if Rama of Setu fame existed in Tretayuga i.e. at least 86 lakhs 45 thousand and 107 years ago?

 

II. Rama story of Mahabharata and Valmiki differ in many respects

 

 

The Ramayana (Uttara, IX.33-35) represents Ravana, Kumbakarna, ´Surpanaka and Vibhisana as children of one and the same mother Kaikasi. The Ramopakhyana (Mahabharata III.274.7-8) on the other hand, makes Ravana and Kumbakarna sons of PuspotkatÄ, Vibhisana, the son of Malini and Khara and ´Surpanakha the children of Raka.

Ramayana (VI.7) represents Rama as the destroyer of Kumbakarna. On the other hand, the Ramopakhyana (Mbh., III.26) represents Laksmana as the slayer of Kumbakarna.

Da´sratha jataka tale of Buddhist tradition speaks an altogether different Rama story.

4. A verse of the Buddhacarita of A´svaghosa possibly records an unsuccessful attempt made by Cyavana, a predecessor of Valmiki, to write the famous poem, which was to make the name of his illustrious descendant immortal.

Valmiki-nada´sca sasarja padyam

Jagramthayanna Cyavano Maharsih

5. We learn from the Mahabharata (I.6.4) that Cyavana had the patronymic Bhargava. Curiously enough, the ´Santi-parva of the Mahabharata (VII.40) cites a verse from Bhargava's Ramacarita. No doubt, Valmiki too is called Bhargava sattamah in the Matsyapurana (XII.51). But the verse cited in the ´Santiparva is not found in his poem, though it agrees in sense with Ramayana (II.67.11).

6. Some scholars, however, read Raja-carita in the place of Rama-carita and identify its author with U´sanas who was also a Bhargava. But the fact that Valmiki had his precursors is proved conclusively by the evidence of the Adikanda which tells us that the Akhyana called Ramayana first originated with the Ikshvaku family and that Valmiki knew Rama only by hearsay:

Iksvakunam idam tesÄm raj´nam vamśe mahatmanam

Mahad utpannam akhyanam Ramayanam iti ´srutam [Adi.V.3]

Iksvaku-vamśaprabhavo Ramo nama janaih ´srutah [Adi. I.8]

 

Hopkins (The Great Epic of India, p.60) draws our attention to the fact that neither of the two epics of Ancient India is recognized before the period of the Grhya-sutras, and the first epic recognized here and in other sutras is the Bharata.

Further he says (p.385) that the oldest heroes of Bharata are not of the Pandu family. He draws a distinction between the original Bharati-katha and the Pandu story and says that the Bharati-katha is older than Valmiki's poem, but the story of Rama is older than the story of the Pandus (The Great Epic of India, p.64).

Neither of the Epics is History – See the Conflict between the contents of the Epics

Janaka and Asvapati Kekaya, two important figures in the Rama story as given by Valmiki, are represented in several Vedic works as flourishing long after the Pariksitas, i.e., the great grandsons of the principal hero of the Mahabharata. In the time of the Vedic Janaka the life and end of the Pariksitas were as pointed out by Weber, still fresh in the memory of the people and formed a subject of general curiosity. In the Brhadaranyakopanisad (III.3.1) we find Bhujyu Lahyayani testing Yaj´navalkya, the ornament of the court of Janaka, with a question the solution of which the former had previously obtained from Sudhanva Angirasa, a Gandharva, who had in his possession the daughter of Kapya Pata´ncala of Madra territory:

"Kva Pariksita¦bhavan?" "Whither have the Pariksitas gone?"

The solution of which, therefore appears to have been looked upon as extremely difficult. Yaj´navalkya answers, "Thither where all A´svamedha sacrificers go".

The Pariksitas are Janamejaya and his three brothers, viz., Ugrasena, Bhimasena and ´Srutasena (Vedic Index, I.p.520). They are mentioned in the following passage of the Mahabharata:

Janamejayah Pariksitah saha bhratrbhih

Kuruksetre dirghasatramupaste tasya bhrata-

rastrayah ´Srutasena-Ugraseno Bhimasena iti [ Mbh.I.3.1]

The Great Epic represents them as grandchildren of Abhimanyu, a prominent figure in the Pandu story.

It seems probable from what has been stated above that the Rama story in which Janaka and A´svapati Kekaya are prominent figures could not have originated before the passing away of the Pariksitas, i.e., Janamejayah and his brothers. This conclusion is confirmed by the fact that Janamejaya is mentioned as an ancient hero in the Ramayana itself (Ayodhya-kanda 64.42)…. On the other hand it is distinctly stated in the Mahabharata that the Pandu story was older than that of Janamejaya, and was in fact recited before Janamejaya by Vai´sampayana…".

§ No historic connection can be deciphered between the Da´sarathi Rama and Vasudeva Krsna by a reading of the epics, which have assumed their present form since the formulations of Grhyasutras and the AstÄdhyayi of Panini.

§ The Bharata, which finds a mention in the above, mentioned ancient works could only be the Bharata[1] – samhita of 24000 śỊokas devoid of the Upakhyanas that contributes to the total of the legendary ´satasahasri samhita.

10. Great Epic that has been extant since the days of ´Sarvanatha of the Khoch copper plate inscription of the Gupta year 214 (AD 533-534) is, as is well known, styled a ´Sata-saha´sri samhita and is interspersed with numerous Upakhyanas. Even so, the number of śỊokas does not reach the total of 100, 000 verses. As pointed out by Hopkins in his Epic Mythology (p.2) the northern version contains 84, 126 verses excluding the Harivamśa. The southern version has 12,000 verses more than the northern recension and, without the Harivamśa, contains 96,578 verses or prose equivalents.

 

Various theories have been suggested to account for the difference between the traditional number 100,000 and the number of śỊokas in the extant versions of the Great Epic. According to some "the attribution of a lakh of verses necessarily implies the existence, as a part of the lakh, of the Harivamśa"[2]. But the addition of that work would make the total exceed the traditional number. This is particularly true of the southern recension. Others have argued that ´sata-sahasra is only a round number and is not to be taken too literally. But a third possibility cannot be entirely exclusded , viz., the loss or disappearance of some Upakhyanas which once formed part of the ´satasahasri samhita.

It was the addition of the Upakhyanas, which transformed the original caturvimśati-sahasri samhita into a ´sata-sahasri samhita. Is there any certainty that all these added Upakhyanas have come down to us?"

No history book can have an evolution of the above sort and we can be sure about the fact that the Epics has no history by comparing them with the Rajatarangini of Kalhana.

III. Opinion of Hopkins on the Historicity of the Epics

1. The mythology of the two epics of India represents in general the belief of the people of Northern India along the lower Ganges within a few centuries of the Christian era.

2. For the Mahabharata the time from 300 BC to 100 BC appears now to be the most probable date, though excellent authorities extend the limits from 400 BC to 400 AD. The Mahabharata as a whole is later than the Ramayana; but Ramayana is metrically more advanced, the work of one author, a skilled metrician, who has improved the rougher epic form of the Mahabharata, as his work represents a life less rude than that depicted in the great popular epic, this being the work of many hands and of different times.

3. Both epics have received long additions. The germ of the Mahabharata has been referred to the Vedic period and the Ramayana has been assigned to pre-Buddhistic times (its gem also recognized as Vedic), but the data in part negative oppose the assumption that either epic poem existed before the fourth century BC….

4. It is most probable that ´Santi and Anu´sasana were Books (XII and XIII) added to the original epic, but equally clear that they were included in the Mahabharata containing a lakh of verses. They may be looked upon in general as later though not modern additions, yet as we know that one portion of ´Santi has been enlarged in quite modern times, there should be no hesitation in granting that passages may have been added at any time within the last few centuries.

5. The palpable additions made in the interest of sectarian belief in the southern recension are merely an indication of what has probably happened in both epics. The point of interest to us in the above long extracts is the quantity apparent of the `original' versus the `extant recension' of Mahabharata, 1:3, meaning, two thirds of the contents are extraneous matter added to the original work – with all possible consequences of a very complex redaction process occurring stage by stage and epoch by epoch – perhaps in a way as to camouflage the original verses as well as their meanings, to the chagrin of all those who may attempt to decipher and understand the purport of the original work.

6. Spectrum of Myths[3]

(a) The chief Hindu gods are phenomenal and the language of the early literature is too clear to be misunderstood in this regard.

(b) But by the time the epics were composed the phenomenal side was greatly obscured.

© Anthropomorphism had rendered even sun and moon quite human in dress, talk, and action while Indra was as much of a family man as Thor became elsewhere. But the base remained not wholly covered and even Visnu and ´Siva occasionally reveal their origin. Animism and naturism blend in the unification of spirits and objective matter marked by ancestors worshipped as animals, mountains, stars etc.

(d) But in one regard this chaos of mythology inherited from an older age is augmented rather than decreased by the generalizing process conspicuous in the epic. Namely, mythology has been affected by the star-cult, but to how great an extent is hard to say. All the stars were divine or saintly beings. Aldebaran was, as Rohinī (female), the favorite wife of the Moon-god; the Pleiades were the "mothers" of Skanda; the Great Bear was known as the Seven Seers and Arundhati, the wife of one of them waited nearby; the "steadfast" Dhruva (Pole Star) being less often personified in anthropomorphic form. But Dhruva is son of Nahusa, who in turn was born of Svarbhanu's daughter, Svarbhanavi by Ayu(s), the son of Pururavas and Urva´si. Hence all Nahusa's sons, Yati, Yayati, Samyati, Ayati and Dhruva, meaning "going" like ayu, or "steadfast" may have been stars, the myth of Yayati pointing in the same direction (I.75.25). So the A´svins are born in "in the mouth" of the mare goddess (110), as asterism (?), Amavasu (cf.amavasya) is also son of Ayu or Pururavas…But most of this is lost in nebulous nomenclature.

(e) Another prolific source of gods is abstractions, constantly personified. There is no limit to a pantheon where hope, hell and hunger, cows and corn, the west and wisdom, etc are all called gods. Constantly new images invoke new personifications. Right and Wrong and Gain make an ancient triad regarded as divine beings, and the "wives" of these beings are registered, together with female attendants without number. Memory, Affection, Endurance, Victory, Effort are incorporate forms in the van of Skanda's army, nor can one dismiss them as poetic metaphor when on an equal footing with them stands Laksmi, Happiness, the well known wife of Visnu…".

These words amply illustrate the caution required in accepting the episodes of the epics and puranas on their face value. We need to sift the accounts to clear off the spurious additions amounting to seventy-five percent for example in the case of Mahabharata and also risk the danger of getting lost in the nebulous and/or cryptic nomenclature.

 

 

 

 

[1] Caturvimśati saha´srim cakre Bharata-samhitam I

Upakhyanair vina tavad Bharatam procyate budhaih II I.1.102 II

 

[2] Harivamśa according to E.W. Hopkins is of 16,375 (16,526) verses.

 

[3] Based on the work of Hopkins , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Jaswal ji,> ==>> > rather than ......... thinking that the> > Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make > > more sense in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?> <==> NO - because there was no such convention or tradition in ancient > india, as we could clearly see understand from ancient astrological > classics. Nakshatra means "Nakshatra in which Moon is placed"; If the > poet had followed some unconventional path, definitely he must have > mentioned it. He never does it, means he was referring to the normal > Nakshatra system. > ==>> > if the Naming ceremony was conducted 11 days After> <==> That is normal - for Kshetriyas the naming ceremony should be done > in the 12th day (what kind of day - you clarify) as per Smritis. The > same may have been followed there as well. > So neither your suggestion is applicable nor it solves anything.> Regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Ram Jaswal" > rkjaswal@ wrote:> >> > Namaste Sreenadh ji + list members > > > > May I suggest that rather than get "bogged" down with thinking that > the> > Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make > more sense> > in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?> > > > After all from Valmiki Ramayana if the Naming ceremony was > conducted 11 days> > After Shri Ram's Birth then doesn't it make more sense that Shri > Ram's Birth> > Nak was Punarvasu whilst Bharat's was Pushyami and Lakshmana and > Satrukhna> > was Ashlesha? This wouldn't then contradict Any Tithi's mentioned > per> > Planetary placements. > > > > Trusting this explanation helps in clearing up any confusion in your> > understanding of the text (?) …….> > > > Best wishes and regards …….> > > > Jai Sita Ram> > > > Ram> > > > _____ > > > > > > On Behalf Of > Sreenadh> > 15 November 2007 09:30> > > > Re: Contextual meaning of the > word> > "Kuleera" in Ramayana - To Rao ji> > > > Dear Ramdas ji,> > There was no need for such a long but providing 'nothing new' mail. > > Look at this statement:> > ==>> > The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi > Valmiki > > in theRamayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the > > king ofAyodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has > > made sequentialastronomical references on important dates related > to > > the life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis > > zodiac constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to > > add that similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated > in > > thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary > > configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as > given > > in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named"Planetarium" > > corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish > > calendar can be known. > > Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri > > Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of > > different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras > > (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)> > Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi) > > Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as > > Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu > > (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon). > > <==> > Note the following points - > > * From the primary reference, i.e. Valmiki Ramaya itself, we now > > know well about the sloka, planetary configuration and > possibilities. > > * It would well known to even kids in astrology that with Navami > > tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra - Sun CANNOT be in Mesha (Aries) - I > > hope you are above that status. In this scenario what is the use of > > mentioning some great 'Palatarium' software and uselessly trying to > > be authentic with an erroneous data?!! (which the auther of that > > article is doing)> > Note the bogus and erroneous argument in the following lines as > > well. > > ==>> > > The results indicated that this wasexactly the location of > > > planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram > was > > > born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years back). > > <==> > Note the following points -> > * If we consider the possible position of Vernal Equinox as per the > > indications given in Valmiki Ramayana - the same planetary position > > CANNOT repeat for at least 26000 years! So the usual argument such > > as 'the same planetary position may repeat after 1000 years or so' > > become useless in the case of Rama's horoscope. In Rama's > horoscope, > > the Sun is near equinox, and so if we look for a repeating similar > > planetary position it should be at least before 26000 years! > > * BC 10,5114 is NOT Treta Yuga but Dwapara Yuga - even as per the > > calculation of Yugas! ) Did you missed this point as well? > > It is very very clear that the document you supplied is a fool's > > document, who knew nothing about history or astronomy - as evident > > from the following words -> > ==>> > Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born > > 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas > Ram > > was born 7,000years back.> > <== > > And you still consider it as an authentic document! I thought you > > will have better and credible arguments! It would be a waste of my > > time to analyze this useless document in more detail. So i am > > stopping here itself. Any way, I expected something better from > you. > > Love,> > Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ <%> 40>> > astrology , HosabettuRamadas Rao > > <ramadasrao@> wrote:> > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > > But I have another source which says the birth of Shri Rama has > > occured in a different birth and time.I am reproducing that > > information source for your information.> > > *Was Lord Ram Really Born?* We Indians are the products of one > > of the oldest civilisations. We need tobe really proud of our > ancient > > history and cultural heritage. However,during the British Rule, we > > developed an inferiority complex, whichadversely affected our quest > > to unearth facts relating to our glorious past.But our young and > > educated men and women, born and brought up in independentIndia, > are > > capable of unearthing the true facts and are confident enough > > toevaluate these objectively. Shri Ram being most basic to > > Indian "ethos", it is necessary to know who isShri Ram? Was he > really > > born? If yes, when and where? As is believed bycrores of people did > > he really put his feet on the Indian territory fromNorth to South, > > reducing the sufferings of mankind and ensuring victory ofgood over > > evil? Let us take a look at historical facts: The story of Shri > > Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in theRamayana, > > which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king ofAyodhya. > > Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made > > sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to the > > life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis zodiac > > constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to add > that > > similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in > > thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary > > configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as > given > > in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named"Planetarium" > > corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish > > calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue > > Service had acquired thissoftware from the US. It is used to > predict > > the solar/lunar eclipses anddistance and location of other planets > > from earth. He entered the relevantdetails about the planetary > > positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki andobtained very > interesting > > and convincing results, which almost determine theimportant dates > > starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of hiscoming back > to > > Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in > > Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri > Ram > > was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of > > different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras > > (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)> > Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi) > > Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as > > Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu > > (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon). This > > data, was fed into the software. The results indicated that this > > wasexactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10, > > 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years > > back). As per theIndian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla > > Paksha in Chaitra month andthe time was around 12 to 1 noontime. > This > > is exactly the time and date whenRam Navmi is celebrated all over > > India. Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained > > from severalbooks written by Indian and foreign authors before and > > after the birth ofChrist - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan, > Kalidasa's > > Raghuvansam, Baudh andJain literature, etc. These books have > narrated > > in great detail thelocation, rich architecture and beauty of > Ayodhya > > which had many palaces andtemples built all over the kingdom. > Ayodhya > > was located on the banks of theSaryu river with Ganga and Panchal > > Pradesh on one side and Mithila on theother side. Normally 7,000 > > years is a very long period during whichearthquakes, storms, floods > > and foreign invasions change the course ofrivers, destroy the > > towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore,the task of > > unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya hasshrunk > in > > size and the rivers have changed their course about 40 > kmnorth/south. > > Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per > > ValmikiRamayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan > > (Sidhhashram). Fromthere he went to Mithila, King Janaka's kingdom. > > Here he married Sita afterbreaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers have > > gone along the route adopted byShri Ram as narrated in the Valmiki > > Ramayan and found 23 places which havememorials that commemorate > the > > events related to the life of Shri Ram. Theseinclude Shringi > Ashram, > > Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram,Janakpur (now in > > Nepal), Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great menand not > for > > fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned > in > > Valmiki Ramayan's AyodhyaKand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to > make > > Shri Ram the king because Sun,Mars and Rahu had surrounded his > > nakshatra, and normally under suchplanetary configuration the king > > dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies.Dashratha's zodiac sign > was > > Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. Thisplanetary configuration > was > > prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it wason this day that > Shri > > Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was25 years old at > > that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in ValmikiRamayan > > which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left > Ayodhyafor > > exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of > war > > withKhardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile. It > is > > alsomentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle. When > > this data wasentered, the software indicated that there was a solar > > eclipse on October 7,5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen > from > > Panchvati. The planetaryconfiguration was also the same - Mars was > in > > the middle, on one side wereVenus and Mercury and on the other side > > were Sun and Saturn. On the basis ofplanetary configurations > > described in various other chapters, the date onwhich Ravana was > > killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ramcompleted > 14 > > years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was alsoNavami > of > > Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back > toAyodhya > > at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar, researched > > on places visited by Shri Ram duringhis exile, and sequentially > moved > > to the places stated as visited by ShriRam in the Valmiki Ramayan, > > starting from Ayodhya he went right uptoRameshwaram. He found 195 > > places which still have the memorials connected tothe events > narrated > > in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram andSita. These > > include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur), BhardwajAshram > > (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram > > (Markundi),Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari), Panchvati, > > Sita Sarovar, RamKund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari Ashram, > > Kishkindha (villageAnnagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple. > (The > > writer is a Commissioner of Income Tax posted at Delhi. The > > articlewill conclude on the Oped page on Monday) In Valmiki Ramayan > > it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed abridge over the > sea > > between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing thisbridge, Shri > Ram's > > army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures(reproduced > > here) on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of whichare > > lying submerged in Palk Strait between Rameshwaram and Sri > > Lanka.Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire > to > > develop SitaVatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this was > > Ashok Vatika whereRavana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076 BC). > > Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the > Suryavansh > > and hewas the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other > > relevant particularsof previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka > > Itihas written about 80 yearsago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram. Professor > > Subhash Kak of Lousiana University,in his book, The Astronomical > Code > > of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63ancestors of Shri Ram who ruled > > over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have beentraced out as: Shri Ram, > > King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilipand so on. From > > Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat,everywhere people > > believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence,particularly in the > > tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh andthe North-> > East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas revolvearound > > the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events and > > places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are truecultural > and > > social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste andcreed. > > Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to > > theperiod when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and > > Muslim orChristian faiths were unknown to the world. The words > Hindu > > (resident ofHindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were > > synonymous. India was alsoknown as Bharat (land of knowledge) and > > Aryavarta (where Aryans live) andHindustan (land of "Hindus" - > > derived from word Indus). During Ram Rajya, the evils of caste > system > > based on birth werenon-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is > stated > > to be of shudra class(scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him > as > > his adopted daughter aftershe was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and > Kush > > grew in his ashram as hisdisciples. We need to be proud of the fact > > that Valmiki was perhaps thefirst great astronomer and that his > study > > of planetary configurations hasstood the test of times. Even the > > latest computer softwares havecorroborated his astronomical > > calculations, which proves that he did notcommit any error. Shabari > > is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's army,which > > succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals > > fromCentral and South India. The facts, events and all other > details > > relating tothe life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all the > > Indians includingscheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims, > > Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus > > Christ was born 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years > > back, whereas Ram was born 7,000years back. Hence, discovering the > > details relating to Shri Ram's life wouldbe lot more difficult as > > destruction caused by floods, earthquakes andinvasions etc., would > be > > far greater. But, should that stop our quest forlearning more about > > our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the > fact > > that the Indian civilisationis the most ancient civilisation today. > > It is certainly more than 10,000years old. Therefore, let us reject > > the story of Aryan invasion in India in1,500 BC as motivated > > implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creatorof this > theory > > had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the BritishRule, > we > > were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of > > thinkingwhich believed that everything Indian was inferior and that > > entire "Indianliterature was not worth even one book rack in > > England". If there weresimilarities in certain features of Indian > > people and people from CentralEurope, then automatic inference > drawn > > was that the Aryans coming fromEurope invaded India and settled > here. > > No one dared of thinking in any otherway. Therefore, there is > urgency > > for the historians and all otherintellectuals to stop reducing > Indian > > history to myth. There is need togather, dig out, search, unearth > and > > analyse all the evidences, which wouldthrow more light on ancient > > Indian civilisation and culture. There is need for the print and > the > > electronic media to take note of thesefacts and create atmosphere > > which would motivate our young and educatedyouth to carry out > > research and unearth true facts about the ancient > Indiancivilisation > > and wisdom and would also encourage them to put across theresults > of > > their research before the people fearlessly and with a sense > > ofpride! There is no need of great austerities or penances to > > worship the LordRamacandra, for He accepts even a small service > > offered by His devotee. ThusHe is satisfied, and as soon as He is > > satisfied, the devotee is successful.Indeed, Lord Sri Ramacandra > > brought all the devotees of Ayodhya back home,back to Godhead. > > (Spoken by Hanuman in Srimad bhagvatam)With best Regards,Ramadas > Rao.> > > > > > > > > > > > @: sreesog@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 > > 16:02:03 +0000 Re: Contextual > > meaning of the word "Kuleera" in Ramayana - To Rao ji> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramdas ji,You don't seem to have paid much attention to, or > > read the debateson Rama's chart going on in this group at all! If > you > > had you shouldhave well understood that the chart given in Ramayana > > is - note it anddon't miss it again -Rama's chart============* The > > Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are usingJHora > put -> > 156 Gregorian calendar for the year)The planatry details are as > > follows -* Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra* Moon in Cancer > (Own > > sign)* Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)* Sun in Pisces * Mercury in > Pisces > > (Debilitated)* Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)* Mars in Capricorn > > (Exalted)* Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)* Lagna - Not mentioned. Note > > that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus > > thestatement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes > > true. Bharata's Chart===============* Planetary position - same as > > above.* Nakshatra - Pushya * Lagna - Not givenLakshmana and > > Satrukhna======================= * Planetary position - same as > > above.* Nakshatra - Aslesha* Lagna - Not givenNote that all the > > conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana getssatisfied. Note that > the > > charts match perfectly well with thedescription given in Valmiki > > Ramayana. Hope this helps.Love,Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ <%40>> > astrology , HosabettuRamadas > > Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> You have not > > understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama"s chart asdepicted by > > Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of birthetc.?> > With > > Regards,> Ramadas Rao> > > @: sreesog@: > > Wed, 14 Nov 200704:50:39 +0000 > Re: > > Contextualmeaning of the word "Kuleera" in Ramayana - To Rao ji> > > > > > > > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are living > > andwhat about the planetary movements and their acceleration in > > TretaYuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with > > precessionseconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to solve > > the rhythmof solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its > > significance.The ancient sages were far more intelligent and better > > that theillogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers > represent > > Solaryears, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and > > complementary toour current understanding of human history, > > archeology and evolution(of solar system, earth, life on earth) all > > such ideas becomeirrelevant. So one should try to understand > ancient > > concepts in tunewith out current knowledge and understanding. I > hope > > that clarifies mystand point. Now let us approach your question in > > anotherperspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga' is > > notapplicable to our current astrology then, we should even > > avoiddiscussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If it > is > > so,then why some so called guru of gurus is using such > > planetarypositions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet > > theories? Toquote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>> > > Pt.XXXXXX wasusing mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary > positions > > are same .And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa and > > arudhas andeven the life of sri ramji is > detail with this > data .So > > much exaltedplanets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his > excile > > to forest andthe curses he got ,even > how it was fructified tru a > > servant maid thehunchback > Mandara,and things like that and Venus > > exalted was showingthe> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted as > > 5th lord was showing >the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th from > > arudha lagna was > showingthe marital problems he faced .This was > the > > line of > discussionsgenerally i think .......<==Hope you will have > > an answer. ==>> Howmany thousands of years have passed from > Treta > > Yuga to the > presentKali Yuga ? Do you think that all the planets > > have the same >movements or acceleration in the present Yuga > also ?? > > Do you have >any reference regarding such planetary movements > during > > Krita >Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is clear > > that allthese questions become irrelevant in then light of > > clarificationsgiven above. :)Love,Sreenadh--- > > Inancient_indian_ <In%> 40>> > astrology , HosabettuRamadas > > Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I have a small > > queryregarding your main question itself.At present which in which > > Yuga weare living and what about the planetary movements and > > theiracceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years have > > passedfrom Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think that > > all theplanets have the same movements or acceleration in the > present > > Yugaalso ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary > > movementsduring Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?Because I > > have no ideaof planetary movements in those great Yugas.> Regards,> > > Ramadas Rao.>> > @: sreesog@: Tue, 13 > Nov > > 2007 13:51:01+0000 Re: > Contextual > > meaning of theword "Kuleera" in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> > > > > > > > Dear Goelji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish etc. > > Please do notloose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I was > > astonished tosee these statements!!! Read carefully the statement > of > > me which youare talking against! ==>> Do you think that either the > > poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun > will > > move 4signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and > > brothers tookbirth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a simple > > word withoutanything wrong associated with and I was not addressing > > anyone inparticular but was speaking about the subject! Actually I > > don'tbelieve that none of the possible author's of that text cannot > > be thatfoolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this > simple > > fact.(i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He > was > > agreat scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other > > poet:If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book > > likeRamayana, he is never going to commit this > mistake.Interpolator: > > Ifsomeone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in > > Sanskrit,and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be > > intelligent enoughto maintain the constancy. Thus the conclusion - > > What ever the periodof the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am > > asking you to simplepossibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our part > in > > understanding it andinterpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)> > ==================If Lagna meansSign and Kuleera means > then, ""Sarpe > > Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhuditaaravo" - get translated > as "Lekhmana > > and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in > > Capricorn Sign" - and everypieces of the puzzle fall in right > places > > & for sure we startappreciating the intelligence and knowledge of > the > > poet. See this as afact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)> > ===============================IfKuleera means Capricorn > > then, ""Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhudite ravo" - get > translated > > as "Lekhmana and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun > was > > in Cancer Sign". I failed to see,how it coherently integrates the > > pieces of the puzzle, without makingus question the intelligence > and > > knowledge of the poet. Please correctme if I am wrong. That was why > > my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to saythat Lekhmana and Satrukhna > were > > born 4 months > after the birth ofRama and Bharata? Or> * Do you > > think that either the poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough > to > > believe that Sun will move 4signs in a single day (if it > is > assumed > > that rama and brothers tookbirth in consecutive days)<==I was > simply > > asking you to clarify yourview - regarding this issue. And I > thought > > that you have an answer tothis question. And that is why I said -> "I > > sincerely believe that youwill have a clear solution to suggest for > > this problem". I don'tbelieve, I have committed any sin or mistake > in > > my earlier mail!Actually your previous mail didn't addressed this > > question - and youwere hastily making the statement - "Why are you > > using such words likefoolish etc. Please do not loose your cool and > > temper and that too...." Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji, what > > is this? I respectyou and we are doing simple academic discussion - > > let us sincerelylook into the possibilities.Love and > regards,Sreenadh-> > -- Inancient_indian_ <In%> 40>> > astrology , Gopal Goel > > <gkgoel1937@>wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become exited too > > soon. Why are youusing such words like foolish etc. Please do not > > loose your cool andtemper and that too for proving > something > which > > you believe is rightand others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is > > incarnation of GOD, AND ITDOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED ON > > THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYANGIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND TEACHING.THE > > RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA ISA GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE INSPIRATION IN > > OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> Ifyou also view Lord Shri Rama in the same > > light, some worthwhilediscussion is possible among > > ourselves,otherwise at least I do notwish to join such > discussions.> > > In astrology ,Kuleer means only cancer. Ravao is appearing > separately > > in the Sloka. This may have twoindications:> 1. Sign Cancer was > > rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was risingwith Sun in dignity i.e. at > Noon > > time> As namkaran sanskar of all thefour brothers had taken place > > simultaneously after the appearance ofLORD RAMA ON THE EARTH, THE > > LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> ANDLOGICAL.> Kindly advise,> > > > > > > G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-110 > > 076> INDIA > > > > ----- Original Message----> Sreenadh > > <sreesog@>> To:ancient_indian_> > <%40>> > astrology > > Tuesday, 13 November,2007 12:59:08 PM> > > Re: Contextualmeaning of the > > word "Kuleera" in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >Dear Rao ji & > Goal > > ji,> I could see that both of you are of theopinian that "Kuleera" > > > > means "Cancer Sign" as used in ValmikiRamayana. Interesting! Let us > > > > for argument sake accept that it meansCancer sign itself - in > > > Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify myfollowing doubt. The sloka > > > > given in Valmiki Ramayana is "SarpeJatastu Saumitri Kuleera > abhudite > > > Ravo" - as per your meaning thesloka would get transilated > > > as "Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born inAslesha Nakshatra when Sun > > > was in Cancer"! Now the questions -> * Doyou mean to say that > > Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > afterthe birth of Rama > > and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poetor the > > interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move4 > > signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and > brotherstook > > birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely believethat > > you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem. > >Love,> > > Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com,Gopal > > Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Friends,> > Mr. Raois a > > great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is > > toguide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> > Sloka > > onthe birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to > > > twopossibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.> > 2 Sign > > Cancerwas rising and Sun was placed in most prominent > > position ,i.e > > NOON>> As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was performed > > >simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> > > > Lakshamanand Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra > > when > > Cancer wasrising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> > Ph: 09350311433> > > > Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao > > <ramadasrao@ ...>>> ancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com> > > > Monday, 12November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE: > > [ancient_indian_ astrology]Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To > > Finn ji> > > > Dear Finn Ji,> >As per my knowledge you are > correct.As > > per Brihajjataka, Yavana >Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka > Rashi.> > > > karkaHkuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho > > > vihitaschadhaatuH.......This shloka is from Yavana Jataka.Meaning > > > karkataka Rashi islike the shape of KulIraakruti which is in > > > water,kalapurusha' schest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative of > > > Dhatu sign orRashi,also indicative of well,river and watery land.> > > > > I hope thishelps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To:ancient_indian_ astrology> > > > sreesog@> > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - > > ToFinn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us consider your > > majorarguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as Capricorn is > > also farfetched, to > > > say the least, since all the astrological > > textsdescribe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That is simply your > > ignorance- many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with in > > detail - andclarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could > > mean 'Capricorn'.To convince you, I will provide a> > details > quotes > > and referencesfrom them in the next post. > > ==>> > > If you are > > using "Lagna" forsigns, then you cannot help placing > > > five > > planets of Bhagwan Ramain Karkata, since this is what> > > the > ninth > > sholka of Canto 18 says,"nakshatre aditi daivatye > > > > > svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshukarkate lagne vakpatav induna > > > > > > saha" > > <==> > This too issimply ignorance. The sloka bit > > means "(Rama took birth)> > inPunarvasu Nakshatra, while 5 planets > > where in own house or> >exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon in > > Cancer sign". Two things> >should be noted here -> > 1) To denote > > Cancer sign the word Karkata isused (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2) There > too > > the word "Lagna" means "Sign"itself. Note that> > "karkate lagne > > vakpatav induna saha" means "InCancer SIGN Jupitor > was> > with > > Moon"> > ==>> > > Secondly, wecannot overlook the fact > that "Adyatma > > Ramayana", > which > > > yousays was written in Kerala, contains > the > > following shlokas> > <== > >There is more than one ignorance in > your > > statements. Let see what> >they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana is > NOT > > a text written in Kerala.It is - "an> > ancient Sanskrit work > > extolling the spiritual virtuesof the story > of> > Ramayana. It > > comprises around 4200 verses, isembedded in > Brahm & #257;nda> > > > Purana and is considered to beauthored by Ved Vyasa" - wikipedia.> > > > > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Adhyatma_ Ramayana)> > 2) What is > > popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDEDTRANSILATION of> > Adyatma > Ramayana > > written by Tunjattu RamanujanEzhuttacchan who is> > known as > > the 'father of malayalam language' agreat scholar. > > 3) We are > NOT > > discussing Adhyatma Ramayana butVALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't > bring > > in irrelevant quotes in between.Note that while Valmiki> > Ramayana > > does not mention Madhu masa etcAdhayata Ramayana does it.> > Note > > that while Valmiki Ramayana tellsus that the birth took place > in> > > > > the 12th (Nakshatra) Month fromthe end date of Putra kameshti,> > > > Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that ithappened at the 10th month. So > > > with> > this much inconsistenciesbetween these two texts - Adhyatma > > > > Ramayana> > quote is NOT worthconsidering while > discussing "Astrology > > in > Valmiki> > Ramayana". Itis clear that you are bringing in the > > Adhyatma > ramayana> > quoteonly because it mentions your > pet "Madhu > > Masa" in it - but > that> >is irrelevant to the current context. > > Please try to depend ONLY ON> >references from Valmiki Ramayana > alone > > while discussing the same. > >4) I am not interested in your habit > > and inconsistent nature in> >studying subject and introducing > > diversions. So I don't have any >time> > to waste after the quote > and > > inconsistencies you presentedregarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana > > quote. Again it simply means that Ihave > wasted> > enough time on > > the ignorance of "TropicalCalendarvalas" . > > Note: So learn to be > > sincere and be truthful -and if clarity comes> > in from some where > > learn to welcome it â€"and if possible drop the> > fanatism and > > use of bad words. You aredragging me to the same> > direction â> €" > > `I know only to deal withbad with bad and good with > good'> > â> €" > > so the end result wouldbe the group becoming a mud house and I> > > > don't want it. So pleaseavoid name calling here onwards and me too> > > > > will never resort to it.Let us keep the group clean and sane. > > > People> > has already startedcomplaining about the insane useless > > direction > in> > which thisgroup is going - both you and me are > > culprits for the > same.> >Please know it as a fact. > > Regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ . > > com, "Avtar Krishen > Kaul"> ><jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Shri > > Sreenadh ji,> > > Namaskar!> > >You are talking of an event of > second > > century BCE. The Surya > > >Sidhanta, which gives the mothodology > of > > calculating "lagna" was > > >very much in vogue then. When you are > > using the word Lagna in the > >> context of planetary positions vis-> a-> > vis some horoscope/birth >chart, > > > it is unimaginable that > > instead of the commoninterpretation of > the > > > word Lagna i.e. > > the sign rising at aparticular time, > > > the "astrologer" > concerned > > would have resortedto some other > meaning > > > of that word! He > > could very well haveused the word "rashi" > instead > > > of Lagna > > then.> > > Secondly, tointerpet Kuleera as Capricorn is also far > > fetched, > to > > > say theleast, since all the astrological texts > > describe it as > > > Karkata!>> > Then you are also ascribing > > a "misprint"or some problem > > > with"Sandhi" for the > > word "abyudyete ravav" and interpreted it > as > > >the description > > of Mars in Capricorn! That also is far fetched!> > > >> > If you > are > > using "Lagna" for signs, then you cannot help placing >> > five > > planets of Bhagwan Rama in Karkata, since this is what the >> > > ninth > > sholka of Canto 18 says, "nakshatre aditi daivatye > > > > >svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshu karkate lagne vakpatav induna > > > > > >saha" Here you can club the words as "panchasu graheshu karkate > > > > > >lagne, vakpatav induna saha" and interpret them as "five planets > > > > > >were in Karkata rashi, which included the Moon and Jupiter". You > > > > > >cannot interpret "lagna" as sign in one place and at the same > > time > > >> > as lagna i.e. aschendant in another place in one and the same > > > > >> chapter.> > > > > > The maximum difficulty that arises out of > > thishypothesis is that > in > > > second century BCE, there was > > nomethodology of calculating > planets > > > correctly, whether it > > wasIndia or any other country! India, on > the > > > other hand, > > wassaddled with the Surya Sidhanta, which is > > > fundamentally > the > > mostincorrect work. So it is just a > possibility > > > that > > theastrologer concerned could have calculated the planetary > > > > >positions as per the Surya Sidhanta and then implanted them in > > the > > >> > Valmiki Ramayana! Those calculatons can give very surprising > > > > > >results!> > > > > > Secondly, we cannot overlok the fact > > that "AdyatmaRamayana", > which > > > you says was written in > Kerala, > > contains thefollowing shlokas> > > "madhumasse site pakshe navmyam > > karkate shubhe>> > punarvasu sahite uchasthe grahapanchake> > > > > mesham pooshanisamprapte pushpavrishti samakule aviraseej jagan > > > > > > nathah parmatmasanatanah" (1/3/14-15)> > > > > > A running > > translation of theseshlokas is> > > "In the month of Madhu, shukla > > paksha --brighthalf--in navmi > tithi > > > and punarvasu nakshara, > > when five planetswere exalted, the sun > was > > > in Mesha, the > > Eternal Lord of theworlds, Parmatma, > incarnated.. .."> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Here the sunhas specifically been put in Mesha but at the > > > same > > > time it isMadhu masa -- which is an astronomical > > impossibility!> > > > > > 2.Five planets are exalted but there is > no > > mention that any > planet > >> is in its own rashi..> > > > > > 3. > > Though there is no menion ofKarkata lagna or the Moon in > > > > > Karkata, but if the Sun is in Meshaand it is Navmi tithi, it > > means > > > > > that even if the sun is in 1degree of Mesha the Moon has to > be > > > at a > > > distance of more than96 degrees from the same. Thus > the > > Moon > will > > > be in Karkata 7degrees to Karkata 19 degrees. But > > then Punarvasu > > > nakshatraranges from Mithuna 20 degrees to > > Karkata 3-20. Thus it > > > is againan astronomical impossibility.> > > > > > > > > In short, whichever way youlook at it, whether it is the > > Valmiki > > > Ramayana or the AdyatmaRamayana, the astronomical > Rashi > > position > > > of the planets cannotbe justifed at all!> > > With > > regards,> > > AKK> > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ > > . com, "Sreenadh" > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > >> > > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > The root (dhatu)for the word 'Lagna' is 'Lag' > > which means> > > > join/conjunct/mix/combine. 'Lagati' or 'Lagitam' > > means "the > one > > > that> > > >joins/conjuncts/ > mixes/combines" . > > There are many words that > sprung> > > from> > > > this root. Look > > at the following word -> > > >"Lagna MandalaH" - it means the same > > as "Rasi Chakra" and means> > > >'Zodiac'. > > > > Mandala = Chakra > = > > Circle> > > > Lagna = Rasi =Sign> > > > Lagna Mandala means 'Sign > > Circle' and 'Rasi Chakra' also >> > means 'Sign> > > > Circle' or > in > > other words both are other namesfor the > Ecliptic, > > > the> > > > > > > zodiac circle. The word 'LagnaMandala' you can find in any > > > > > standard> > > > Sanskritdictionary. Thus it is evident that the > > word 'Lagna' > can> > > >means 'Sign'. Now coming to Nirukti, the > > word 'Lagna' has the> > > >following Nirukti -> > > > 'Lagati > GrahaiH > > iti Lagna' meaning 'the onewhich> > > > join/conjunct/ mix/combine > > with Planets is called Lagna';> certainly > > > the> > > > word > lagna > > here refers to 'Sign' becauseit is when the planets > > > joins> > > > > > > (traverse through) signsthat the results originate. Thus every > > > > > > sign> > > > means'Lagna'. > > > > Another Nirukti for the word > > Lagna is 'Lagati Phalaiiti Lagna'> > > > meaning 'the one which > > join/conjuct/ mix/combine (orin other > words> > > > shows) with > the > > results is called Lagna'; herethe word 'Lagna' > can> > > > refer > > either to 'Sign' or to 'Asc'. > >> > Later the the word 'Lagna' got > a > > better and clear definition > > >such as> > > > 'Raseenam Udayo > > Lagna' meaning the 'the rising sign iscalled > > > Lagna'.> > > > > > Note that here also the word lagna isessentially associated > with > > > > > > the> > > > word 'Sign', but stillit is due to importance to the > > > > word 'rising'> > > > that it gottranslated as 'Asc'. Of course > since > > the at the > > > horizon,> > > >the sky and the earth joins and so > > the word 'Lagna' is apt here > too>> > > and that is why the > > translation of this word as 'Ascendant' > >> acceptable. > > > > > Note > > that when used interchangeably with thewords Arudha (as > > > done> > > > > > > in Prasnamarga) , the word 'Lagna'loses all its association > > > with> > > > 'rising sign' even today, andresort to the old > > meaning 'Sign'!> > > > Further there are many Lagnassuch as 'Ghati > > Lagna', 'Hora > Lagna',> > > > 'Bhava Lagna', 'SreeLagna', 'Arudha > > Lagna' etc some of which > are > > > NOT> > > > AT ALLrelated > > to 'rising' or 'horizon' in any way. Therefore > in > > >such> > > > > > > contexts to translating the word 'Lagna' as 'Asc' becomes> > > > > erroneous.. > > > > Considering all these points it becomesclear > that > > accepting the> > > > meaning 'Sign' for the word 'Lagna' in'Valmiki > > Ramayana' > context > > > is a> > > > truly acceptableargument, > well > > supported by Nirukti and > > > Dictionaries.> > > >Hope this helps. > > > > > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ > > astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > The niruktiand dictionary > quotes > > which gives the > > > meaning 'Sign' to> > > > >the word 'Lagna' I > > will provide - please wait for the next > post. > >> Now> > > > > > > coming to your next argument -> > > > > ==>> > > > > >However, even > > if we agree for the sake of argument that > lagna > > >means > > > > > > > > > sign, how do you say that the sun was in Mina sinceit has > > > > > very > > > > > > clearly been stated "kuleere abyuditeravav" i.e. > > when the > sun > > > was > > > > > > in Kuleera i.e.Karkata Rashi! > > Thus even if we take the sun > of > > > > > > BhagwanRama in Mina > > instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana > > > and > > > >> > > > Shatrugana could not be in Karkata in any case.> > > > > <==> > >> > > > > It is already answered in a previous mail to Kaul ji. But I > > > > >will> > > > > re-state it here. > > > > > "kuleere abyudite ravav" > > Itcould be a simple sandhi mistake > > > of a> > > > > > missing 'aa'. > > Andthe correct reading could be "kuleere> > > > > > > abyuditaraavav" ,meaning "Mars (aara) was in Capricorn > > > > > (Kuleera)".> > > > > Notethat the meaning of the word Kuleera is > > given in Sanskrit> > > > >Nikhandus as "Kuleero Nakra Karkatau" > > meaning "The word > Kuleera > >> is> > > > > used for Capricon and > > Cancer". The auther of Hridyapadha> vyakhya > > > of> > > > > > > Brihajjataka clearly quotes manyreferences from various > > > > > Nikhandus and> > > > > argues that themeaning Capricorn for the > word > > Kuleera is > also > > > very> > > > >popular. Note that this solves > > all the confusion and shows > that > >> apart> > > > > from the > > position of Ju & Mo in Cancer the textprovides the > > > position> > > > > > > > of Many other planets as well.For example it is clear from > > > the> > > > > description given alongwith Bharata's Nakshatra that > Sun > > and > > > Mercury> > > > > are inPisces, and from the one given > along > > while giving the > > > Nakshatra>> > > > of Lakshmana and Satrukhna > > that Mars is in Capricorn! So it >> > becomes> > > > > clear that > all > > those brothers are born inconsecutive days, > and > > > also> > > > > > > > that the poet didn't gavethe Asc of any of them - but only > the> > > > > > > > planetary position. >> > > > Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology, "Avtar > > > Krishen > > >Kaul"> > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com, "Sreenadh" > > > > > > > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > >Namaskar!> > > > > > From your curent post, it appears that > > both of usagree > that > > > the > > > > > > astrological > references > > in theValmiki Ramayana are > > > concoctions > > > > > > since the > > planetarypositions appear to have been for a > period > > > of > > > > > > > > >second century BCE.> > > > > > However, you have also said> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > <4) While describing the Nakshatra of Bharata > > thestatement > > > given is> > > > > > "Pushye jatastu bharato > > MeenaLagne Prasanna Dhee" should be> > > > > > translated > to "Bharata > > wasborn in Pushya Nakshatra, and at > > > that > > > > > > time Sun > > & Mercury was in the Sign Pisces" !! (Since Lagna > > > means > > > > > > > >> Sign - as per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit > dictionaries > > > > >> and > > > > > > Nirukti of the word Lagna too clearly support > > thismeaning > of > > > the > > > > > > word Lagna) ->> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I do not agree with you here since no astrologer, howevr > > > > >useless or > > > > > > ignorant he/she may be or might have been > > wouldbe unaware > of > > > the > > > > > > fact that lagna means a > > signascending at the time of > > > birth/event. > > > > > > There > is > > aproecedure for calculating the same in the Surya > > > Sidhanta > > > > > >> > > also, even if that is the most inaccuate astronomical work. > > > > >> The > > > > > > complete sholka is "Pushye jatastu Bharato, > > Minalagne > > > > > > prasannadheeh, sarpe jatatavtu saumitri, > > kuleereabyudite > > > ravav"--> > > > > > 1/18/15> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thusaccording to me Mina Lagna means Mila langa! However, > > > > > even > > >> > > if we agree for the sake of argument that lagna > means > > sign, > >> how do > > > > > > you say that the sun was in Mina > since > > it hasvery clearly > > > been > > > > > > stated "kuleere abyudite > > ravav"i.e. when the sun was in > > > Kuleera > > > > > > i.e. > Karkata > > Rashi!Thus even if we take the sun of Bhagwan > > > Rama in > > > > > > > > > Minainstead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana and Shatrugana > > > > > could not> > > > > > be in Karkata in any case. > > > > > > The > names > > ofnakshatras are very clear i.e. Shri RAm was > born > > > in > > > > > > > >> Aditi-Daivata i.e. Punarvasu (ii) Bharata in Pushya and > (iii-> > > > > >iv)> > > > > > Lakshmana and Shatrugana in "Sarpi" i.e. Ashlesha. > > Theyare > > > in a > > > > > > sequence, but if the sun of > Lakshamana > > andShatrugana is in > > > Karkata, > > > > > > who are younger by > > justtwo days, the sun of Shri Ram and > > > Bharata > > > > > > > > cannot beeither in Mina or Mesha!> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus > > whichever way welook at it, there certainly has been > a > > > > > > > > > manipulation ofplanetary positions in the Valmiki Ramayana.> > > > > > > > > With regards,>> > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,>> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > ii) The planetary > > position of BhagwanRam as given in > the > > > > > > Valmiki > > > > > > > > > > > Ramaya was"implanted" in that work by some "jyotishi" > of > > > > > > either > > > >> > > > that period or a later one!> > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > >Exactly! Not only the horoscope but the whole > > Ramayana is > > > re-> >> > > > written> > > > > > > by 'Brhamanic > > priests' supported by Sungadynasty - is > the > > > correct> > > > > > > > > > argument. (And not byJyotishis). Thus the currently > > > > > available> > > > > > > 'BrahmanicRamayana' (Why insult sage > Valmiki) > > is clearly > > > the work > > > >> > of> > > > > > > > some 'brahmanic > > poet' who lived after BC 157, whotook a > > > planetary> > > > > > > > > > position known to him and ascribedit to Rama!! > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > > > Since 157 BC is an eraof recorded history without any > > > > > > > > > obscurity, we > > > > > >> > do not have any such records > that > > a divine incarnation > > > cameinto > > > > > > > > existence then, > > especially since it is after theBudha-> > > Avtar and > > > > > > > > > > > after the advent of Maya themlechha into India!> > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > > > > You are absolutelyright! And that is why it is said > > that -> > > > > it is> > > > > > >just the imagination of the poet who wrote > > this poem in > the > > >recent> > > > > > > past. He just took > > some samples from the recent> history > > > known to> > > > > > > > him > > and manipulated the tocreate a long poem - that > > > fulfills his> > > > > > > > > > purpose. Idon't have any disregard for the 'Brahmnic > > > poet' > > > who > > > > >> knew> > > > > > > what he was doing - > but > > I feel pity for the peoplewho > > > mistook to> > > > > > > > represent > > actual history, andbelieve that Monkey men > with a > > > tail> > > > > > > > > > lived inrecent past and also that Sanskrit as used in > > > > > Ramayana> > > > >> > existed in the period of those monkey > people. )> > > > > > > > >==>> > > > > > > > Even here, you are using "J Hora" > for > > 157 BC whenall > we > > > had at > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > point of timei.e. 157 BC by way of astronomical bibles > > > was > the > > > > > > > > >> Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha as given in the > > > Pancha > > > >> > Sidhantika!> > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > Kaul > ji, > > that is notthat important - since the poet who > > > wrote> > > > > > > > > > Ramyanais not that accurate in describing the charts - > not > > > > > > that > > >> > > he is> > > > > > > not giving any longitudes but > only > > describesa planetary > > > position > > > > > > of> > > > > > > BC > > 157. Hegives the position of ALL THE PLANETS and > > > mentions > > > > > > > > >that> > > > > > > it was Punarvasu Nakshatra and that the > > Tithi wasNavami. > No > > > great> > > > > > > astronomical > knowledge > > isnecessory to mention this much, > and> > > > > > > therefore > > anysoftware will do. Further JHora most of > the > > > > > > > > peoplein> > > > > > > this group is having and they can verify the > > planetary> > > position > > > > > > using> > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > >If you are bewildered by the statement that "ALL THE > > > > > PLANETSARE> > > > > > > MENTIONED", then here goes the > > clarification:> > > >> > > 1) Thiti Navami, Nakshatra Punar vasu - > > clearly stated> > > > >> > 2) Ju, Ma in Cancer - clearly stated.> > > > > > > > > > 3) 5 planets inown house or exaltation - statement not > > > > > > clear.> > > > > > > Thencomes the interesting part -> > > > > > > > 4) > > While describing theNakshatra of Bharata the > statement > > > > given > > > > > > > > is> > > >> > > "Pushye jatastu bharato Meena Lagne > > Prasanna Dhee" should > be>> > > > > > translated to "Bharata was > > born in Pushya Nakshatra, and >at > > > that > > > > > > time> > > > > > > > > > Sun & Mercury was in theSign Pisces" !! (Since Lagna > means > > > > > > Sign - > > > > > > as> > >> > > > per the usage in Ramayana; > The > > Sanskrit dictionaries and > > >Nirukti of> > > > > > > the word > Lagna > > too clearly support thismeaning of the > word > > > > > > Lagna) -> > > > > > > > > > Thus theposition of Sun and Mercury are clearly stated!> > > > > > > > > > 5) Whiledescribing the Nakshatra of Lakshmana and > > > > > Satrukhna it is> > > >> > > said that the Nakshatra is Aslesha and > > also that "Kuleere> > > >> > > Abhuditeaaravo" means "Arra (Mars) > was > > in Capricon > > >(Kuleera)"!! > > > > > > Which> > > > > > > is > > exact! Thus it becomesclear that our confusion > > > about 'Sun in> > > > > > > > > > Cancer' wasjust because of a Sandhi problem!! - Thus the > > > > > > position > > > > >> of> > > > > > > Mars is clearly stated! > > > > > > > > > > 6) Thus whatremains is the position of Sa and Ve - which > > > > > > as per > > > > > >the> > > > > > > given Tropical chart of 14 > March > > 157 BC becomes >clarified. > > > Sa is in> > > > > > > Aquarius and > > Ve is in Taurus! >> > > > > > Thus the poet knew well what he is > > speaking about - the >> > confusion> > > > > > > till date > regarding > > this planetary positionbeing caused > by > > > our> > > > > > > > > ignorance and lack of effortto understand the facts! > > > > > > > > > > Love,> > > > > > > Sreenadh>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, "Avtar > > > Krishen > > > > > > > > > Kaul"> > > > > >> <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>> > > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > <Calculate the planetaryposition for 14 March -156 > > > > (Gregorian> > > > > > > > > > Calendar);9.15 PM approx in JHora; and you will see > > > what > > > I > > > > > >mean. The> > > > > > > > Horoscope matches > > well with the descriptionin > Ramayana.>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My dear Sreenadhji, youare making really a fool of > > > yourself > > by > > > > > > such > > > >> > > > comments!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are trying toprove is that the planetary > position > > > > > > of > > > > > > > >Bhagwan Rama, as given in the Valmiki Ramayana, > > is the > > > planetary> > > > > > > > position of March 14, 157 BC. > > Obviously, this leads to> > > two > > > > > > > > conclusions: > > > > > > > > > > > 1) EitherBhagwan Ram was born on that date i.e. March > > 14, > > > > > 157 > > > > >> BC at > > > > > > > > 9-15 PM> > > > > > > > > or> > > > > > > > > > ii)The planetary position of Bhagwan Ram as given in > > > > the > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > > > Ramaya was "implanted" in > that > > work by some"jyotishi" > of > > > either > > > > > > > > that > period > > or a laterone!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since 157 BC is an > era > > of recrodedhistory without any > > > > > > obscurity, we > > > > > > > > > > > do nothave any such records that a divine incarnation > > > > came > > into > > >> > > > > existence then, especially since it is after > the > > Budha-> > >Avtar and > > > > > > > > after the advent of Maya the > > mlechha intoIndia!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus all you are > > proving withyour astrological > knowledge > > > and > > > > > > > > latest > > > > > >> > astronomical softwares is that some uselss > and > > foolish > > >jyotishi > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > implanted the > > planetaryposition of March 14, 157 BC > into > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ValmikiRamayana just to make even that divine > incarnation > > > > > > > > > > >subservient to planetary suzarinity!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Even here, you are using "J Hora" for 157 BC when all > we > > > > > > hadat > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > point of time i.e. 157 BC by > > wayof astronomical bibles > > > was the > > > > > > > > Surya > > Sidhanta ofMaya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha > > > > > > > > Sidhantika!> > >> > > > > And as is an open secret, that is the > most > > useless > > >astronomical > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > by > someone > > who did notknow even ABC of astronomy, so > much > > > so > > > > > > > > > that > > >> > > > > he did not have any knowledge of precession > > either!> > > > >> > > QED/QEF> > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > AKK> > > >> > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ > > . com,"Sreenadh" > > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > Calculate theplanetary position for 14 March -156 > > > > > (Gregorian> > > > > > > > >Calendar); 9.15 PM approx in JHora; and > > you will see > > > what I > >> > > > mean. > > > > > > > > The> > > > > > > > > > > > Horoscope matcheswell with the description in > > > > > Ramayana. > > > > > > > > > Let uslook at the core argument of Kaul > > ji -> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > >> > > > iii) The sun could > never > > be in Mesha -- whether the > so > > >> > > called > > > > > > > > > > sayana> > > > > > > > > > or the socalled nirayana --- if it was > > Madhu Masa > > > i.e. the > > > > > > >> first > > > > > > > > > > > > month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time ofbirth of > > > Bhagwan > > > > > > > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > <== > > > >> > > > > I am yet to see > any > > reference in so called Valmiki > > >Ramayana > > > > > > which> > > > > > > > > > > > states that 'Rama's birthtook place in Madhu Masa'; > I > > > > > > hope > > > > > > Kaul ji> > > > >> > > > will come up with > relevant > > quote from the same > text. ;=) > >> > > > Actually > > > > > > > > > > if> > > > > > > > > we read throughRamayana we could easily see > that > > the > > > birth > > > > > > took > >> > > > > > place> > > > > > > > > > > > BEFORE the advent of Vasanta Ritu.> > > > > > > > > Also note > that > > the meaning 'Sign(Rasi)' for the > >> word 'Lagna' > > > > > > is > a> > > > > > > > > > > very popular one, andthe original one. The Nirukta > > > > > > defenition > > > > > > of > > > >> > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > word 'Lagna' itself means 'Sign (Rasi)'and not Asc, > > > even > > > > > > > > > though > > > > > > > > the> > > >> > > > > second meaning > > became popular later. > > > > > > > > > Andso the conclusion - who > > ever made up this text -> > > was > > > > > >> > describing> > > > > > > > > > > > a recent planetary position which waswell known to > him -> > > > > > > > > > > > possibly > > > > > > > > a> > >> > > > > > planetary > > position of some king in his own period, > and >> > that is > > > > > > > > > why> > > > > > > > > Ramayana is a mereliterary text, and NOT a > > divine > one. > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > >> > > > > If some parts > > of it seems to be confusing,> > > > > > > > >> anachronistic, > > interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > may > > >> > > better > to> > > > > > > > > > > > simply wait and make furtherinvestigations into > > > the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > > <==> > > > >> > > > I agree - > but > > is it not that these discussions itself > > > is> > > > > > part of > > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > >investigations into the > subject? > > > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > >> > > You have come up with some > > relevant questions > > > regarding >> > > > > > > Ramayana's> > > > > > > > > > > > > description of thehoroscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > > > > > > > > > possible > > > > > >> > it > > > > > > > > > > may be a > good > > idea to compare thesehoroscope-> > > descriptions > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > >similar descriptions from other texts.. > > > > > > > > > > > > <==> > > > >> > > > Yes, I agree - and our field is wast -> > > > > > > > > > > >Nirayana Astrology - Rishi Horas & Tantric texts> > > > > > > > > > > >Sayana/Tropical Astrolology - Vedic literature, > Epics, > > > > > > > > >Puranas > > > > > > > > etc > > > > > > > > > There is lot > > ofunprocessed, non-scrutinized data > > > around, and > > > > > > > we > > > >> > > > > > can> > > > > > > > > do much; though our studies - > > whetherthe conclusions > > > agree > > > > > > with> > > > > > > > > > > > popularnotions and beliefs or not. > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > > > > >The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the > > > > > > birth >> > > > > and > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > horoscopes ofboth Rama and Krishna. I have seen > this > > > > > > > > description> > >> > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the > description > > from > Ramayana> > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > one> > > > > > > > > > > > >given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or are > there > > > > > > > > > >> differences?> > > > > > > > > > This may actually > > provide us withsome new and > > > relevant > > > > > > > > > > information.> > > > > > >> > <==> > > > > > > > > I agree - quote > and > > proceed. But remember onething - > > > our > > > > > > major> > > > > > > > > > > > concern in thesediscussions is 'Astrology in Valmiki > > > > > > > > > Ramayana' > > > > > >> > (and> > > > > > > > > not merely the > > horoscope of Rama), and letus not > forget > > > the > > > > > > > main > > > > > > > > > > area> > > >> > > > > of study, while dealing with > > diversions. At the end > of > >> our > > > > > > study, > > > > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > suresome useful and systematic material > should > > come > > > up. We > > >> > > > > will > > > > > > > > > preserve > > and present it - as abackground for further > > > > > > > > > > investigations> > > > > > > > >into other areas. :=)> > > > > > > > > > > > Love,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -> --> > In ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, "Finn > > > > > Wandahl"> > > > > > > > ><finn.wandahl@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr.Sreenadh & Mr. Kaul,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhapsone should not draw too hasty conclusions > > > > > > regarding > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > origin> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the Ramayana. If someparts of it seems to be > > > confusing,> > > > > > > > > > > > >anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > > > > may > > > >> > better to> > > > > > > > > > simply wait and make > > furtherinvestigations into > the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > You have come up with some relevant questions > > > > >regarding > > > > > > > > Ramayana's> > > > > > > > > > > description > > ofthe horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > > > > > > possible > > > > > > >> > > > it may> > > > > > > > > > be a good idea to compare > > thesehoroscope-descripti > ons > > > to > > > > > > similar> > > > > > > > > > >> > descriptions from other texts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the > > > > > >birth > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > >horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna. I have seen > this > > > > > > > >description> > > > > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the > > descriptionfrom > Ramayana > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > one> > > >> > > > > > given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or > are > > > there >> > > > > > > differences?> > > > > > > > > > This may > > actuallyprovide us with some new and > > > relevant > > > > > > > > > >information.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-)> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Finn> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > >> > > > > > > > The best option, therefore, is that we > > must > admit >> > that > > > > > > these> > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrologicalcombinations in the Ramayanas are > > > later day> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> interpolations > > > > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thenwhy don't with a better spirit accept that > > > the > > > > > > > > > whole> > > > > > > > ramayana> > > > > > > > > > > itself > is > > a made up textcreated between 2nd BC > and > > > 2 > > > > > > > AD? > > > > > > > > >> With the> > > > > > > > > > > numerous dereference > to > > Buddha & Jainreligions, > > > > > > Ardhasastra > > > > > > > > > (of> > > > > > > > > >> > > Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I > > > believe > > >that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is clear> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thatit is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD > > > > for > > > > > > > >sure - > > > > > > > > or better> > > > > > > > > > > in > > 2AD in Sungaperiod itself. > > > > > > > > > > > There is no wonder > > that theastrological > reference > > > in > > > > > > > > Ramayana > > is> > > > >> > > > > > utterly wrong and seems to be made up and in > > the > > >line of > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly > > > superstitions. > > > > > > > >> Actually > > > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > > only can > > beexpected from such a text that is NOT > AT > > > ALL > > > > > > > > > > >written by> > > > > > > > > > > sage Valmiki, but possibly by > > somestupid > brahmins > > > of > > > > > > sunga > > > > > > > > > > period.>> > > > > > > > > > What else do you think can be expected > > from such >a > > > text?!!> > > > > > > > > > > So I will request > you > > to betteraccept the fact > > > that - > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > whole> >> > > > > > > > > Ramayana itself is a made up text - a > text > > > created> > > with a > > > > > > > > purpose -> > > > > > > > > > > > > > createdbetween 2nd century BC and 2nd century > AD. > > > Even the> > > > > > > > >> > > > > astronomical references in it is going in the > > same > > > > > >> > direction. > > > > > > > > If there> > > > > > > > > > > > > WAS aValmiki Ramayana prior to the currently > > > available > > > > > > > > >one (as> > > > > > > > > > > referenced in Mahabharata) , then > > thattext is > buried > > > in > > > > > > dept > > > > > > > > by > > the> > >> > > > > > > > political and religious fanatics who had a > > > > purpose >> > and > > > > > > wanted > > > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > > > > >project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by > > > calling > > > > > > > >> Buddha > > > > > > > > a thief> > > > > > > > > > > and > > massmurdering Buddists. It was the hall make > of > > > that > > > > > > > > >era > > > > > > > > (BC 200> > > > > > > > > > > to AD 200), > > andevident from many other literary > > > works as > > > > > > > > > > well.> > > > > > > > > > > So instead of going against astrologers -> > > how >> > about > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > against> > > > > > > > > > > > >> and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures > who > > > > > in a >> > > > > > > futile> > > > > > > > > > > effort to spread > > Animalkilling, and brahmin > > > projecting, > > > > > > Yaga> > > > > > > > > > >> > > services, - rewrote all the good old ancient > scripts > > > > > > and> > > > > > even > > > > > > > > tried to> > > > > > > > > > > > > > steeland accommodate even the non-vedic > > > astrological > > > > > > > > >signs > > > > > > > > also into> > > > > > > > > > > scripts > > thatpropagated such vedic rituals? Isn't > it > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >Ramayana is> > > > > > > > > > > also a clear proof of the same? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I believe - this would be more logically > > > > >acceptable > > > > > > path, > > > > > > > > with> > > > > > > > > > > > > >enough evidence in support. > > > > > > > > > > > Endnote: > > Ramayanais a made-up text. Not at all > > > > > > authentic. > > > > > > > > > > >Giving it> > > > > > > > > > > importance more than a simple > > literarywork is > > > ignorance. > > > > > > Rama > > > > > > > > > is > > god> > >> > > > > > > > or not is irrelevant in an academic > > discussion of > a> > > made > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > text > like> > > > > > > > > > > >> Ramayana. Ramayana is a text which is NOT > written > > > by > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > > > for sure> > > > > > > > > > > > > - he cannot besuch a corrupted, full of > partiality > > > and > > > > > > > > > hatred> >> > > > > > > > > influenced, ignorant individual. > > Sage Valmiki was >a > > > great> > > > > > > > > > > knowledgeable > > sage as evident fromYoga Vasishta, > > > and > > > > > > > > > > ascribing the> > > > > > > >> > > authorship of a text like > currently > > available > > > Ramayana on> > > > > > him > > > > > > > > is a> > > > > > > > > > > > > > SIN, and aninsult of that great sage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wil better adoptthis line of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Love,> > > > > > > > > >> Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ancient_indian_ astrology@ . > > com, "Avtar > > > > > > > >Krishen Kaul"> > > > > > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri > > Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > > > >> Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I request you to look in to thefollowing > > > argument and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > possibilities ->>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand Ireqeuswt all of you to > ponder > > > > on > > the > > > > > > > > following> > > > > > > > > > > > facts, even if > > they are unpleasant:> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > The Valmiki Ramayana issupposed to be Aadi > > > Mahakavya > > > > > > > > > > > i.e. the > > > > >> > > > > > > very first Mahakavya (Epic) > of > > Indian history > and > >> > > > Maharshi > > > > > > > > Valamiki > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isknown as Aadi Kavi.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.The Mahabharata is a much later work.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to > have > > incarnated > much > > >> > > earlier > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BhagwanKrishna.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. ShriKrishna is supposed to have incarnaed > > > much > > > > > > > > > earlier >> > > > > > > than> > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > A few million dollar questions are:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or > Mangal > > > > > >Shani > > > > > > etc.> > > > > > > > > planets > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> in the VJ> > > > > > > > > > > > b) We do not find any Mesha > > etc.Rashis in the > > > > > > Mahabharata> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or any > > > > > >Mangal > > > > > > Shani > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas > prior > > > to the > > > > > >> > > > > Surya > > > > > > > > > > > > Sidhanta of the > > PanchaSidhantika!> > > > > > > > > > > > The questions arising out > of > > thesefacts are:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i )> How > > comewe find the horoscopic details of > > > Bhagwan > > > > > > > > Rama,> > >> > > > > > Bharata, > > > > > > > > > > > > Shatruna and > > evenLakshamana in the Valmiki > > > Ramayana?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ii) How come in spite of the best efforts of > > > > all >> > the > > > > > > > > astronomers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody hasbeen able to reconcile the > > > irreconcilable > > > > > > > > > facts > >> > > > > > that if > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagwan Rama > was > > born inSun in Mesha and Moon > in > > > > > > Karakta in > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been > > > > Navmki > > > > > >> > tithi > > > > > > > > or vice-> > > > > > > > > > > > > > versa?> > >> > > > > > > > > iii) The sun could never be in Mesha --> > > whether > >> the so > > > > > > called> > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu > > Masa > > > > > i.e.> > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > month ofthe Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth > of > > > > > > > > Bhagwan > > > >> > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > iv)Thesun of the younger brothers could never > > > have been > > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > Karkata > > > > > > > > > > > > if the > > sun of BhagwanRama was in Mesha or even > > > Mina!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > In a nutshell, the more we try to > > reconcile > these > >> > > > > > irreconcilable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > facts, the more wewill be making a laughing > stock > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > ourselves!>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best option,therefore, is that we must > admit > > > that > > > > > > > > > these > > >> > > > > > > > > astrological combinations in the > > Ramayanas are > > >later day > > > > > > > > > > > > interpolations > > by some good fornothing > > > overzealous > > > > > > > > > astrologers > > who > > > > > >> > > > > > did not know even this much of astronomy > > that > if > > >the sun > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Bhagwan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could > never > > > > > > have > > >> > > been > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karkata justafter two days in the case of His > > > siblings!> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT > JUST > > FOR THIS FACT> THAT > > > WE DO > > > > > > NOT > > > > > > > > > HAVE > > A > > > > > >> > > > > > HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR > HIM > > HAS > > > > >> INCREASED > > > > > > > > SINCE IT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MEANSTHAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA > > > KARTUM > > > > > > > > > > >SAMARTH AND > > > > > > > > > > > > NOT SUBJECT TO > > PLANETARYSUZARINITY!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And thetail-piece of all this haranguing is > that > > > it > > > > > > > > > means> > > > > > > > clearly > > > > > > > > > > > > that Rishis > > likeValmiki nad the Veda Vayasa > etc. > > > did not> > > > > > > > > > >believe in > > > > > > > > > > > > any pedictive gimmicks either.> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > With regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > Avtar > > KrishenKaul> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invite your mail > > contactsto join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces. It's > > easy! Tryit! > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails > as > > you wish.To know > how, go to > http://help. / > > l/in//mail/mail/ tools/tools- 08.html> >> > > > > > 5, > 50, > > 500, 5000 -Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go > > tohttp://help.> > <tohttp://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools->> > /l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-> > 08.html> >> > > > > > > >________> > > Discoverthe new Windows Vista>http://search.> > <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?> msn.com/results.aspx?> > q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE> > > > > > > > > > ________> Invite > > your mail contacts to join your friends list with WindowsLive > Spaces. > > It's easy!>http://spaces. <http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?>> > live.com/spacesapi.aspx?> > wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx & mkt=en-us> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________> > > Discover the new Windows Vista> > > http://search.> > <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en->> > msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-> > US & form=QBRE> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Chandra Hari ji,

Thanks for the nice write-up, which helps us all better in

understanding the epics in the contemporary context and style, in a

sincere and scholarly manner.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " K Chandra Hari "

<chandrahari81 wrote:

>

>

> Contradictions in Valmiki's Ramayana

>

>

>

>

>

> I. Historical Contradictions between the Epics

>

> Ramayana and Mahabharata have been looked

> upon as historical in content at least partially by historians and

in

> recent years with the rise of Hindu nationalism, such a line of

thinking

> has assumed a new vigor and recognition in academic and social

circles.

> But centuries of research and archaeological works have not yielded

any

> reliable clues as regarding the dates of either of the epics or the

> drama that encrypted in it. We are at a loss even in understanding

as to

> which of the epic drama preceded the other. Mcdonnel and

Raychaudhary

> had been at war in trying to prove the existence of one before the

other

> and both had quoted the Epics to substantiate their respective

scholarly

> view points. The historical conflict between the two topics remains

> unresolved as the scholars tend to reject the verses which do not

suit

> them as interpolation. See the details below:

>

>

>

> 1. Ramayana before Mahabharata

> (Macdonnel)

>

> (a) Drona-parva, Book VII (141,149) of the

> Mahabharata quotes Valmiki from Book VI of

> Ramayana.

>

> (b) Book III of Mahabharata (Cantos 277-291) contains the

> Ramopakhyana (Episode of Rama).

>

>

>

> 1. Mahabharata befor Ramayana

> (Raychaudhary)

>

> (a) Adikanda X.2-3 where

> Krsna Vasudeva is alluded to

>

> (b) Ayodhya-kanda XIV.42, where

> Janamejayah appears as a king of the bygone era

>

> © Ayodhya-kanda XXX.6 and

> Sundarakanda XXIV.11-12, where we find Satyavan and

> Savitri of Mahabharata fame

>

> (d) Sundarakanda which mentions the characters of

> the Nalopakhyana of Mahabharata

>

> (e) Kiskindha-kanda XIII.28 mentioning

> the acquisition of Pa´ncajanya by Krsna

>

> (f) Lanka-kanda CXIX.15-27, which identifies

> Krsna with Rama

>

> (g) Lanka-kanda XIX.32;

> Mahabharata II.41.9: `Parigrhyagirim

> dorbhyam vapur Visnor vidambayan'.

>

>

>

> So both the historians have proved their points as the Epics have

> contradictory contents. According to the above quotes from

> Ramayana given by Raychaudhary Valmiki was

> quite familiar with the Pandu story and other characters of

> Mahabharata.

>

>

>

> How can this be possible if Rama of Setu fame existed in

> Tretayuga i.e. at least 86 lakhs 45 thousand and 107 years ago?

>

>

>

> II. Rama story of Mahabharata and

> Valmiki differ in many respects

>

>

>

> 1. The Ramayana (Uttara, IX.33-35) represents

> Ravana, Kumbakarna, ´Surpanaka and

> Vibhisana as children of one and the same mother

> Kaikasi. The Ramopakhyana (Mahabharata

> III.274.7-8) on the other hand, makes Ravana and

> Kumbakarna sons of PuspotkatÄ,

> Vibhisana, the son of Malini and Khara and

> ´Surpanakha the children of Raka.

> 2. Ramayana (VI.7) represents Rama as the

> destroyer of Kumbakarna. On the other hand, the

> Ramopakhyana (Mbh., III.26) represents

> Laksmana as the slayer of Kumbakarna.

> 3. Da´sratha jataka tale of Buddhist tradition speaks an

> altogether different Rama story.

>

> 4. A verse of the Buddhacarita of A´svaghosa possibly

> records an unsuccessful attempt made by Cyavana, a predecessor of

> Valmiki, to write the famous poem, which was to make the name

> of his illustrious descendant immortal.

>

> Valmiki-nada´sca

> sasarja padyam

>

> Jagramthayanna Cyavano

> Maharsih

>

> 5. We learn from the Mahabharata (I.6.4) that Cyavana had

> the patronymic Bhargava. Curiously enough, the ´Santi-parva

> of the Mahabharata (VII.40) cites a verse from

> Bhargava's Ramacarita. No doubt, Valmiki too is

> called Bhargava sattamah in the Matsyapurana

> (XII.51). But the verse cited in the ´Santiparva is not found in

> his poem, though it agrees in sense with Ramayana

> (II.67.11).

>

> 6. Some scholars, however, read Raja-carita in the place of

> Rama-carita and identify its author with U´sanas who was also a

> Bhargava. But the fact that Valmiki had his precursors is

> proved conclusively by the evidence of the

> Adikanda which tells us that the

> Akhyana called Ramayana first originated with

> the Ikshvaku family and that Valmiki knew Rama only

> by hearsay:

>

> Iksvakunam idam

> tesÄm raj´nam vamśe

> mahatmanam

>

> Mahad utpannam akhyanam

> Ramayanam iti ´srutam [Adi.V.3]

>

> Iksvaku-vamśaprabhavo Ramo nama

> janaih ´srutah [Adi. I.8]

>

> 1. Hopkins (The Great Epic of India, p.60) draws our attention

to the

> fact that neither of the two epics of Ancient India is recognized

before

> the period of the Grhya-sutras, and the first epic recognized

> here and in other sutras is the Bharata.

> 2. Further he says (p.385) that the oldest heroes of Bharata are

> not of the Pandu family. He draws a distinction

> between the original Bharati-katha and the

> Pandu story and says that the

> Bharati-katha is older than Valmiki's poem,

> but the story of Rama is older than the story of the

> Pandus (The Great Epic of India, p.64).

> 3. Neither of the Epics is History – See the Conflict between

the

> contents of the Epics

>

> Janaka and Asvapati Kekaya, two important figures in the Rama story

> as given by Valmiki, are represented in several Vedic works as

> flourishing long after the Pariksitas, i.e., the great

> grandsons of the principal hero of the Mahabharata. In the

> time of the Vedic Janaka the life and end of the Pariksitas

> were as pointed out by Weber, still fresh in the memory of the

people

> and formed a subject of general curiosity. In the

> Brhadaranyakopanisad (III.3.1) we find

> Bhujyu Lahyayani testing Yaj´navalkya, the ornament

> of the court of Janaka, with a question the solution of which the

former

> had previously obtained from Sudhanva Angirasa, a Gandharva,

> who had in his possession the daughter of Kapya Pata´ncala of

> Madra territory:

>

> " Kva

> Pariksita¦bhavan? " " Whither have

> the Pariksitas gone? "

>

> The solution of which, therefore appears to have been looked upon as

> extremely difficult. Yaj´navalkya answers, " Thither where

> all A´svamedha sacrificers go " .

>

> The Pariksitas are Janamejaya and his three brothers, viz.,

> Ugrasena, Bhimasena and ´Srutasena (Vedic Index,

> I.p.520). They are mentioned in the following passage of the

> Mahabharata:

>

> Janamejayah Pariksitah saha

> bhratrbhih

>

> Kuruksetre dirghasatramupaste tasya bhrata-

>

> rastrayah ´Srutasena-Ugraseno Bhimasena iti

> [ Mbh.I.3.1]

>

> The Great Epic represents them as grandchildren of Abhimanyu, a

> prominent figure in the Pandu story.

>

> It seems probable from what has been stated above that the Rama

> story in which Janaka and A´svapati Kekaya are prominent figures

> could not have originated before the passing away of the

> Pariksitas, i.e., Janamejayah and his brothers. This

> conclusion is confirmed by the fact that Janamejaya is mentioned as

an

> ancient hero in the Ramayana itself

> (Ayodhya-kanda 64.42)…. On the other

> hand it is distinctly stated in the Mahabharata that the

> Pandu story was older than that of Janamejaya, and was in

> fact recited before Janamejaya by Vai´sampayana… " .

>

> § No historic connection can be deciphered between the

> Da´sarathi Rama and Vasudeva Krsna

> by a reading of the epics, which have assumed their present form

since

> the formulations of Grhyasutras and the

> AstÄdhyayi of Panini.

>

> § The Bharata, which finds a mention in the above,

> mentioned ancient works could only be the Bharata[1] –

> samhita of 24000 śỊokas devoid of the

> Upakhyanas that contributes to the total of the legendary

> ´satasahasri samhita.

>

> 10. Great Epic that has been extant since the days of

> ´Sarvanatha of the Khoch copper plate inscription of the

> Gupta year 214 (AD 533-534) is, as is well known, styled a

> ´Sata-saha´sri samhita and is interspersed with

> numerous Upakhyanas. Even so, the number of śỊokas

> does not reach the total of 100, 000 verses. As pointed out by

Hopkins

> in his Epic Mythology (p.2) the northern version contains 84, 126

verses

> excluding the Harivamśa. The southern version has 12,000 verses

> more than the northern recension and, without the Harivamśa,

> contains 96,578 verses or prose equivalents.

>

> 1. Various theories have been suggested to account for the

difference

> between the traditional number 100,000 and the number of śỊokas

> in the extant versions of the Great Epic. According to some " the

> attribution of a lakh of verses necessarily implies the existence,

as a

> part of the lakh, of the Harivamśa " [2]. But the addition of

> that work would make the total exceed the traditional number. This

is

> particularly true of the southern recension. Others have argued that

> ´sata-sahasra is only a round number and is not to be taken too

> literally. But a third possibility cannot be entirely exclusded ,

viz.,

> the loss or disappearance of some Upakhyanas which once formed

> part of the ´satasahasri samhita.

> 2. It was the addition of the Upakhyanas, which transformed

> the original caturvimśati-sahasri samhita

> into a ´sata-sahasri samhita. Is there any

> certainty that all these added Upakhyanas have come down to

> us? "

>

> No history book can have an evolution of the above sort and we can

be

> sure about the fact that the Epics has no history by comparing them

with

> the Rajatarangini of Kalhana.

>

> III. Opinion of Hopkins on the Historicity of the Epics

>

> 1. The mythology of the two epics of India represents in

general

> the belief of the people of Northern India along the lower Ganges

within

> a few centuries of the Christian era.

>

> 2. For the Mahabharata the time from 300 BC to 100 BC

> appears now to be the most probable date, though excellent

authorities

> extend the limits from 400 BC to 400 AD. The Mahabharata as a

> whole is later than the Ramayana; but

> Ramayana is metrically more advanced, the work of one author,

> a skilled metrician, who has improved the rougher epic form of the

> Mahabharata, as his work represents a life less rude than that

> depicted in the great popular epic, this being the work of many

hands

> and of different times.

>

> 3. Both epics have received long additions. The germ of the

> Mahabharata has been referred to the Vedic period and the

> Ramayana has been assigned to pre-Buddhistic times (its

> gem also recognized as Vedic), but the data in part negative oppose

the

> assumption that either epic poem existed before the fourth century

> BC….

>

> 4. It is most probable that ´Santi and Anu´sasana were

> Books (XII and XIII) added to the original epic, but equally clear

that

> they were included in the Mahabharata containing a lakh of

> verses. They may be looked upon in general as later though not

modern

> additions, yet as we know that one portion of ´Santi has been

> enlarged in quite modern times, there should be no hesitation in

> granting that passages may have been added at any time within the

last

> few centuries.

>

> 5. The palpable additions made in the interest of sectarian

belief

> in the southern recension are merely an indication of what has

probably

> happened in both epics. The point of interest to us in the above

long

> extracts is the quantity apparent of the `original' versus the

> `extant recension' of Mahabharata, 1:3, meaning, two

> thirds of the contents are extraneous matter added to the original

work

> – with all possible consequences of a very complex redaction process

> occurring stage by stage and epoch by epoch – perhaps in a way as to

> camouflage the original verses as well as their meanings, to the

chagrin

> of all those who may attempt to decipher and understand the purport

of

> the original work.

>

> 6. Spectrum of Myths[3]

>

> (a) The chief Hindu gods are phenomenal and the language of the

early

> literature is too clear to be misunderstood in this regard.

>

> (b) But by the time the epics were composed the phenomenal side

was

> greatly obscured.

>

> © Anthropomorphism had rendered even sun and moon quite human

in

> dress, talk, and action while Indra was as much of a family man as

Thor

> became elsewhere. But the base remained not wholly covered and even

> Visnu and ´Siva occasionally reveal their origin.

> Animism and naturism blend in the unification of spirits and

objective

> matter marked by ancestors worshipped as animals, mountains, stars

etc.

>

> (d) But in one regard this chaos of mythology inherited from an

older

> age is augmented rather than decreased by the generalizing process

> conspicuous in the epic. Namely, mythology has been affected by the

> star-cult, but to how great an extent is hard to say. All the stars

were

> divine or saintly beings. Aldebaran was, as Rohinī

> (female), the favorite wife of the Moon-god; the Pleiades were the

> " mothers " of Skanda; the Great Bear was known as the Seven Seers

> and Arundhati, the wife of one of them waited nearby; the

> " steadfast " Dhruva (Pole Star) being less often personified in

> anthropomorphic form. But Dhruva is son of Nahusa, who in

> turn was born of Svarbhanu's daughter, Svarbhanavi by

> Ayu(s), the son of Pururavas and Urva´si. Hence all

> Nahusa's sons, Yati, Yayati, Samyati,

> Ayati and Dhruva, meaning " going " like ayu, or

> " steadfast " may have been stars, the myth of Yayati

> pointing in the same direction (I.75.25). So the A´svins are born in

> " in the mouth " of the mare goddess (110), as asterism (?),

> Amavasu (cf.amavasya) is also son of Ayu or

> Pururavas…But most of this is lost in nebulous nomenclature.

>

> (e) Another prolific source of gods is abstractions, constantly

> personified. There is no limit to a pantheon where hope, hell and

> hunger, cows and corn, the west and wisdom, etc are all called gods.

> Constantly new images invoke new personifications. Right and Wrong

and

> Gain make an ancient triad regarded as divine beings, and the

> " wives " of these beings are registered, together with female

> attendants without number. Memory, Affection, Endurance, Victory,

Effort

> are incorporate forms in the van of Skanda's army, nor can one

> dismiss them as poetic metaphor when on an equal footing with them

> stands Laksmi, Happiness, the well known wife of

> Visnu… " .

>

> These words amply illustrate the caution required in accepting the

> episodes of the epics and puranas on their face value. We

> need to sift the accounts to clear off the spurious additions

amounting

> to seventy-five percent for example in the case of Mahabharata

> and also risk the danger of getting lost in the nebulous and/or

cryptic

> nomenclature.

>

>

> [1] Caturvimśati saha´srim cakre

> Bharata-samhitam I

>

> Upakhyanair vina tavad Bharatam

> procyate budhaih II I.1.102 II

>

> [2] Harivamśa according to E.W. Hopkins is of 16,375 (16,526)

> verses.

>

> [3] Based on the work of Hopkins

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jaswal ji,

> > ==>

> > > rather than ......... thinking that the

> > > Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

> > > more sense in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

> > <==

> > NO - because there was no such convention or tradition in ancient

> > india, as we could clearly see understand from ancient

astrological

> > classics. Nakshatra means " Nakshatra in which Moon is placed " ; If

the

> > poet had followed some unconventional path, definitely he must

have

> > mentioned it. He never does it, means he was referring to the

normal

> > Nakshatra system.

> > ==>

> > > if the Naming ceremony was conducted 11 days After

> > <==

> > That is normal - for Kshetriyas the naming ceremony should be done

> > in the 12th day (what kind of day - you clarify) as per Smritis.

The

> > same may have been followed there as well.

> > So neither your suggestion is applicable nor it solves anything.

> > Regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " Ram Jaswal "

> > rkjaswal@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Sreenadh ji + list members

> > >

> > > May I suggest that rather than get " bogged " down with thinking

that

> > the

> > > Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

> > more sense

> > > in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

> > >

> > > After all from Valmiki Ramayana if the Naming ceremony was

> > conducted 11 days

> > > After Shri Ram's Birth then doesn't it make more sense that Shri

> > Ram's Birth

> > > Nak was Punarvasu whilst Bharat's was Pushyami and Lakshmana and

> > Satrukhna

> > > was Ashlesha? This wouldn't then contradict Any Tithi's

mentioned

> > per

> > > Planetary placements.

> > >

> > > Trusting this explanation helps in clearing up any confusion in

your

> > > understanding of the text (?) …….

> > >

> > > Best wishes and regards …….

> > >

> > > Jai Sita Ram

> > >

> > > Ram

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > >

> > > On Behalf Of

> > Sreenadh

> > > 15 November 2007 09:30

> > >

> > > Re: Contextual meaning of

the

> > word

> > > " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> > >

> > > Dear Ramdas ji,

> > > There was no need for such a long but providing 'nothing new'

mail.

> > > Look at this statement:

> > > ==>

> > > The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi

> > Valmiki

> > > in theRamayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as

the

> > > king ofAyodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he

has

> > > made sequentialastronomical references on important dates

related

> > to

> > > the life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

> > > zodiac constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless

to

> > > add that similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not

repeated

> > in

> > > thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the

planetary

> > > configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

> > given

> > > in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> > > corresponding exact dates of these events according to

theEnglish

> > > calendar can be known.

> > > Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

> > > Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> > > different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> > > (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> > > Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn;

vi)

> > > Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii)

Lagna as

> > > Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> > > (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

> > > <==

> > > Note the following points -

> > > * From the primary reference, i.e. Valmiki Ramaya itself, we now

> > > know well about the sloka, planetary configuration and

> > possibilities.

> > > * It would well known to even kids in astrology that with Navami

> > > tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra - Sun CANNOT be in Mesha (Aries) -

I

> > > hope you are above that status. In this scenario what is the

use of

> > > mentioning some great 'Palatarium' software and uselessly

trying to

> > > be authentic with an erroneous data?!! (which the auther of that

> > > article is doing)

> > > Note the bogus and erroneous argument in the following lines as

> > > well.

> > > ==>

> > > > The results indicated that this wasexactly the location of

> > > > planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram

> > was

> > > > born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years back).

> > > <==

> > > Note the following points -

> > > * If we consider the possible position of Vernal Equinox as per

the

> > > indications given in Valmiki Ramayana - the same planetary

position

> > > CANNOT repeat for at least 26000 years! So the usual argument

such

> > > as 'the same planetary position may repeat after 1000 years or

so'

> > > become useless in the case of Rama's horoscope. In Rama's

> > horoscope,

> > > the Sun is near equinox, and so if we look for a repeating

similar

> > > planetary position it should be at least before 26000 years!

> > > * BC 10,5114 is NOT Treta Yuga but Dwapara Yuga - even as per

the

> > > calculation of Yugas! ) Did you missed this point as well?

> > > It is very very clear that the document you supplied is a fool's

> > > document, who knew nothing about history or astronomy - as

evident

> > > from the following words -

> > > ==>

> > > Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born

> > > 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back,

whereas

> > Ram

> > > was born 7,000years back.

> > > <==

> > > And you still consider it as an authentic document! I thought

you

> > > will have better and credible arguments! It would be a waste of

my

> > > time to analyze this useless document in more detail. So i am

> > > stopping here itself. Any way, I expected something better from

> > you.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > ancient_indian_ <%

> > 40>

> > > astrology , HosabettuRamadas Rao

> > > <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > > > But I have another source which says the birth of Shri Rama

has

> > > occured in a different birth and time.I am reproducing that

> > > information source for your information.

> > > > *Was Lord Ram Really Born?* We Indians are the products of one

> > > of the oldest civilisations. We need tobe really proud of our

> > ancient

> > > history and cultural heritage. However,during the British Rule,

we

> > > developed an inferiority complex, whichadversely affected our

quest

> > > to unearth facts relating to our glorious past.But our young and

> > > educated men and women, born and brought up in independentIndia,

> > are

> > > capable of unearthing the true facts and are confident enough

> > > toevaluate these objectively. Shri Ram being most basic to

> > > Indian " ethos " , it is necessary to know who isShri Ram? Was he

> > really

> > > born? If yes, when and where? As is believed bycrores of people

did

> > > he really put his feet on the Indian territory fromNorth to

South,

> > > reducing the sufferings of mankind and ensuring victory ofgood

over

> > > evil? Let us take a look at historical facts: The story of Shri

> > > Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in

theRamayana,

> > > which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king

ofAyodhya.

> > > Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made

> > > sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to

the

> > > life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

zodiac

> > > constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to add

> > that

> > > similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in

> > > thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the

planetary

> > > configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

> > given

> > > in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> > > corresponding exact dates of these events according to

theEnglish

> > > calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian

Revenue

> > > Service had acquired thissoftware from the US. It is used to

> > predict

> > > the solar/lunar eclipses anddistance and location of other

planets

> > > from earth. He entered the relevantdetails about the planetary

> > > positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki andobtained very

> > interesting

> > > and convincing results, which almost determine theimportant

dates

> > > starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of hiscoming

back

> > to

> > > Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded

in

> > > Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

> > Ram

> > > was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> > > different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> > > (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> > > Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn;

vi)

> > > Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii)

Lagna as

> > > Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> > > (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

This

> > > data, was fed into the software. The results indicated that this

> > > wasexactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January

10,

> > > 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121

years

> > > back). As per theIndian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla

> > > Paksha in Chaitra month andthe time was around 12 to 1 noontime.

> > This

> > > is exactly the time and date whenRam Navmi is celebrated all

over

> > > India. Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be

ascertained

> > > from severalbooks written by Indian and foreign authors before

and

> > > after the birth ofChrist - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan,

> > Kalidasa's

> > > Raghuvansam, Baudh andJain literature, etc. These books have

> > narrated

> > > in great detail thelocation, rich architecture and beauty of

> > Ayodhya

> > > which had many palaces andtemples built all over the kingdom.

> > Ayodhya

> > > was located on the banks of theSaryu river with Ganga and

Panchal

> > > Pradesh on one side and Mithila on theother side. Normally 7,000

> > > years is a very long period during whichearthquakes, storms,

floods

> > > and foreign invasions change the course ofrivers, destroy the

> > > towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore,the task of

> > > unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya

hasshrunk

> > in

> > > size and the rivers have changed their course about 40

> > kmnorth/south.

> > > Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per

> > > ValmikiRamayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan

> > > (Sidhhashram). Fromthere he went to Mithila, King Janaka's

kingdom.

> > > Here he married Sita afterbreaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers

have

> > > gone along the route adopted byShri Ram as narrated in the

Valmiki

> > > Ramayan and found 23 places which havememorials that commemorate

> > the

> > > events related to the life of Shri Ram. Theseinclude Shringi

> > Ashram,

> > > Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram,Janakpur (now in

> > > Nepal), Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great menand not

> > for

> > > fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is

mentioned

> > in

> > > Valmiki Ramayan's AyodhyaKand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to

> > make

> > > Shri Ram the king because Sun,Mars and Rahu had surrounded his

> > > nakshatra, and normally under suchplanetary configuration the

king

> > > dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies.Dashratha's zodiac sign

> > was

> > > Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. Thisplanetary configuration

> > was

> > > prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it wason this day that

> > Shri

> > > Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was25 years

old at

> > > that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in

ValmikiRamayan

> > > which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left

> > Ayodhyafor

> > > exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time

of

> > war

> > > withKhardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile.

It

> > is

> > > alsomentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle.

When

> > > this data wasentered, the software indicated that there was a

solar

> > > eclipse on October 7,5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen

> > from

> > > Panchvati. The planetaryconfiguration was also the same - Mars

was

> > in

> > > the middle, on one side wereVenus and Mercury and on the other

side

> > > were Sun and Saturn. On the basis ofplanetary configurations

> > > described in various other chapters, the date onwhich Ravana was

> > > killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri

Ramcompleted

> > 14

> > > years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was

alsoNavami

> > of

> > > Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back

> > toAyodhya

> > > at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar,

researched

> > > on places visited by Shri Ram duringhis exile, and sequentially

> > moved

> > > to the places stated as visited by ShriRam in the Valmiki

Ramayan,

> > > starting from Ayodhya he went right uptoRameshwaram. He found

195

> > > places which still have the memorials connected tothe events

> > narrated

> > > in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram andSita. These

> > > include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur),

BhardwajAshram

> > > (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram

> > > (Markundi),Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari),

Panchvati,

> > > Sita Sarovar, RamKund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari

Ashram,

> > > Kishkindha (villageAnnagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple.

> > (The

> > > writer is a Commissioner of Income Tax posted at Delhi. The

> > > articlewill conclude on the Oped page on Monday) In Valmiki

Ramayan

> > > it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed abridge over

the

> > sea

> > > between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing thisbridge, Shri

> > Ram's

> > > army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures(reproduced

> > > here) on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of

whichare

> > > lying submerged in Palk Strait between Rameshwaram and Sri

> > > Lanka.Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the

desire

> > to

> > > develop SitaVatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this

was

> > > Ashok Vatika whereRavana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076

BC).

> > > Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the

> > Suryavansh

> > > and hewas the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other

> > > relevant particularsof previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya

Ka

> > > Itihas written about 80 yearsago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram.

Professor

> > > Subhash Kak of Lousiana University,in his book, The Astronomical

> > Code

> > > of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63ancestors of Shri Ram who

ruled

> > > over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have beentraced out as: Shri

Ram,

> > > King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilipand so on. From

> > > Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat,everywhere

people

> > > believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence,particularly in

the

> > > tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh andthe

North-

> > > East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas

revolvearound

> > > the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events

and

> > > places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are truecultural

> > and

> > > social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste andcreed.

> > > Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged

to

> > > theperiod when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born

and

> > > Muslim orChristian faiths were unknown to the world. The words

> > Hindu

> > > (resident ofHindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were

> > > synonymous. India was alsoknown as Bharat (land of knowledge)

and

> > > Aryavarta (where Aryans live) andHindustan (land of " Hindus " -

> > > derived from word Indus). During Ram Rajya, the evils of caste

> > system

> > > based on birth werenon-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is

> > stated

> > > to be of shudra class(scheduled caste), still Sita lived with

him

> > as

> > > his adopted daughter aftershe was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and

> > Kush

> > > grew in his ashram as hisdisciples. We need to be proud of the

fact

> > > that Valmiki was perhaps thefirst great astronomer and that his

> > study

> > > of planetary configurations hasstood the test of times. Even the

> > > latest computer softwares havecorroborated his astronomical

> > > calculations, which proves that he did notcommit any error.

Shabari

> > > is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's

army,which

> > > succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals

> > > fromCentral and South India. The facts, events and all other

> > details

> > > relating tothe life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all

the

> > > Indians includingscheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims,

> > > Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago.

Jesus

> > > Christ was born 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600

years

> > > back, whereas Ram was born 7,000years back. Hence, discovering

the

> > > details relating to Shri Ram's life wouldbe lot more difficult

as

> > > destruction caused by floods, earthquakes andinvasions etc.,

would

> > be

> > > far greater. But, should that stop our quest forlearning more

about

> > > our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the

> > fact

> > > that the Indian civilisationis the most ancient civilisation

today.

> > > It is certainly more than 10,000years old. Therefore, let us

reject

> > > the story of Aryan invasion in India in1,500 BC as motivated

> > > implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creatorof this

> > theory

> > > had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the

BritishRule,

> > we

> > > were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of

> > > thinkingwhich believed that everything Indian was inferior and

that

> > > entire " Indianliterature was not worth even one book rack in

> > > England " . If there weresimilarities in certain features of

Indian

> > > people and people from CentralEurope, then automatic inference

> > drawn

> > > was that the Aryans coming fromEurope invaded India and settled

> > here.

> > > No one dared of thinking in any otherway. Therefore, there is

> > urgency

> > > for the historians and all otherintellectuals to stop reducing

> > Indian

> > > history to myth. There is need togather, dig out, search,

unearth

> > and

> > > analyse all the evidences, which wouldthrow more light on

ancient

> > > Indian civilisation and culture. There is need for the print and

> > the

> > > electronic media to take note of thesefacts and create

atmosphere

> > > which would motivate our young and educatedyouth to carry out

> > > research and unearth true facts about the ancient

> > Indiancivilisation

> > > and wisdom and would also encourage them to put across

theresults

> > of

> > > their research before the people fearlessly and with a sense

> > > ofpride! There is no need of great austerities or penances to

> > > worship the LordRamacandra, for He accepts even a small service

> > > offered by His devotee. ThusHe is satisfied, and as soon as He

is

> > > satisfied, the devotee is successful.Indeed, Lord Sri Ramacandra

> > > brought all the devotees of Ayodhya back home,back to Godhead.

> > > (Spoken by Hanuman in Srimad bhagvatam)With best Regards,Ramadas

> > Rao.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > @: sreesog@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007

> > > 16:02:03 +0000 Re: Contextual

> > > meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Ramdas ji,You don't seem to have paid much attention to,

or

> > > read the debateson Rama's chart going on in this group at all!

If

> > you

> > > had you shouldhave well understood that the chart given in

Ramayana

> > > is - note it anddon't miss it again -Rama's chart============*

The

> > > Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are usingJHora

> > put -

> > > 156 Gregorian calendar for the year)The planatry details are as

> > > follows -* Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra* Moon in Cancer

> > (Own

> > > sign)* Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)* Sun in Pisces * Mercury in

> > Pisces

> > > (Debilitated)* Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)* Mars in Capricorn

> > > (Exalted)* Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)* Lagna - Not mentioned.

Note

> > > that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus

> > > thestatement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes

> > > true. Bharata's Chart===============* Planetary position - same

as

> > > above.* Nakshatra - Pushya * Lagna - Not givenLakshmana and

> > > Satrukhna======================= * Planetary position - same as

> > > above.* Nakshatra - Aslesha* Lagna - Not givenNote that all the

> > > conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana getssatisfied. Note

that

> > the

> > > charts match perfectly well with thedescription given in Valmiki

> > > Ramayana. Hope this helps.Love,Sreenadh--- In

> > > ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> > > astrology , HosabettuRamadas

> > > Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> You have not

> > > understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama " s chart asdepicted

by

> > > Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of birthetc.?>

> > With

> > > Regards,> Ramadas Rao> > > @:

sreesog@:

> > > Wed, 14 Nov 200704:50:39 +0000Subject:

 

> > Re:

> > > Contextualmeaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao

ji> >

> > >

> > > > > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are

living

> > > andwhat about the planetary movements and their acceleration in

> > > TretaYuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with

> > > precessionseconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to

solve

> > > the rhythmof solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its

> > > significance.The ancient sages were far more intelligent and

better

> > > that theillogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers

> > represent

> > > Solaryears, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and

> > > complementary toour current understanding of human history,

> > > archeology and evolution(of solar system, earth, life on earth)

all

> > > such ideas becomeirrelevant. So one should try to understand

> > ancient

> > > concepts in tunewith out current knowledge and understanding. I

> > hope

> > > that clarifies mystand point. Now let us approach your question

in

> > > anotherperspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga'

is

> > > notapplicable to our current astrology then, we should even

> > > avoiddiscussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If

it

> > is

> > > so,then why some so called guru of gurus is using such

> > > planetarypositions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet

> > > theories? Toquote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>>

> > > Pt.XXXXXX wasusing mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary

> > positions

> > > are same .And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa

and

> > > arudhas andeven the life of sri ramji is > detail with this

> > data .So

> > > much exaltedplanets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his

> > excile

> > > to forest andthe curses he got ,even > how it was fructified

tru a

> > > servant maid thehunchback > Mandara,and things like that and

Venus

> > > exalted was showingthe> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted

as

> > > 5th lord was showing >the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th

from

> > > arudha lagna was > showingthe marital problems he faced .This

was

> > the

> > > line of > discussionsgenerally i think .......<==Hope you will

have

> > > an answer. ==>> Howmany thousands of years have passed from

> > Treta

> > > Yuga to the > presentKali Yuga ? Do you think that all the

planets

> > > have the same >movements or acceleration in the present Yuga

> > also ??

> > > Do you have >any reference regarding such planetary movements

> > during

> > > Krita >Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is

clear

> > > that allthese questions become irrelevant in then light of

> > > clarificationsgiven above. :)Love,Sreenadh---

> > > Inancient_indian_ <In%

> > 40>

> > > astrology , HosabettuRamadas

> > > Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I have a small

> > > queryregarding your main question itself.At present which in

which

> > > Yuga weare living and what about the planetary movements and

> > > theiracceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years

have

> > > passedfrom Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think

that

> > > all theplanets have the same movements or acceleration in the

> > present

> > > Yugaalso ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary

> > > movementsduring Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?

Because I

> > > have no ideaof planetary movements in those great Yugas.>

Regards,>

> > > Ramadas Rao.>> > @: sreesog@: Tue,

13

> > Nov

> > > 2007 13:51:01+0000 Re:

> > Contextual

> > > meaning of theword " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji>

> >

> > >

> > > > Dear Goelji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish

etc.

> > > Please do notloose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I

was

> > > astonished tosee these statements!!! Read carefully the

statement

> > of

> > > me which youare talking against! ==>> Do you think that either

the

> > > poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun

> > will

> > > move 4signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and

> > > brothers tookbirth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a

simple

> > > word withoutanything wrong associated with and I was not

addressing

> > > anyone inparticular but was speaking about the subject!

Actually I

> > > don'tbelieve that none of the possible author's of that text

cannot

> > > be thatfoolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this

> > simple

> > > fact.(i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He

> > was

> > > agreat scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other

> > > poet:If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book

> > > likeRamayana, he is never going to commit this

> > mistake.Interpolator:

> > > Ifsomeone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in

> > > Sanskrit,and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be

> > > intelligent enoughto maintain the constancy. Thus the

conclusion -

> > > What ever the periodof the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am

> > > asking you to simplepossibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our

part

> > in

> > > understanding it andinterpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)

> > > ==================If Lagna meansSign and Kuleera means

> > then, " " Sarpe

> > > Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhuditaaravo " - get translated

> > as " Lekhmana

> > > and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in

> > > Capricorn Sign " - and everypieces of the puzzle fall in right

> > places

> > > & for sure we startappreciating the intelligence and knowledge

of

> > the

> > > poet. See this as afact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)

> > > ===============================IfKuleera means Capricorn

> > > then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhudite ravo " - get

> > translated

> > > as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when

Sun

> > was

> > > in Cancer Sign " . I failed to see,how it coherently integrates

the

> > > pieces of the puzzle, without makingus question the intelligence

> > and

> > > knowledge of the poet. Please correctme if I am wrong. That was

why

> > > my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to saythat Lekhmana and Satrukhna

> > were

> > > born 4 months > after the birth ofRama and Bharata? Or> * Do you

> > > think that either the poet or theinterpolator was foolish >

enough

> > to

> > > believe that Sun will move 4signs in a single day (if it > is

> > assumed

> > > that rama and brothers tookbirth in consecutive days)<==I was

> > simply

> > > asking you to clarify yourview - regarding this issue. And I

> > thought

> > > that you have an answer tothis question. And that is why I

said -

> > " I

> > > sincerely believe that youwill have a clear solution to suggest

for

> > > this problem " . I don'tbelieve, I have committed any sin or

mistake

> > in

> > > my earlier mail!Actually your previous mail didn't addressed

this

> > > question - and youwere hastily making the statement - " Why are

you

> > > using such words likefoolish etc. Please do not loose your cool

and

> > > temper and that too.... " Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji,

what

> > > is this? I respectyou and we are doing simple academic

discussion -

> > > let us sincerelylook into the possibilities.Love and

> > regards,Sreenadh-

> > > -- Inancient_indian_ <In%

> > 40>

> > > astrology , Gopal Goel

> > > <gkgoel1937@>wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become exited too

> > > soon. Why are youusing such words like foolish etc. Please do

not

> > > loose your cool andtemper and that too for proving > something

> > which

> > > you believe is rightand others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is

> > > incarnation of GOD, AND ITDOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED

ON

> > > THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYANGIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND

TEACHING.THE

> > > RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA ISA GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE

INSPIRATION IN

> > > OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> Ifyou also view Lord Shri Rama in the

same

> > > light, some worthwhilediscussion is possible among

> > > ourselves,otherwise at least I do notwish to join such

> > discussions.>

> > > In astrology ,Kuleer means only cancer. Ravao is appearing

> > separately

> > > in the Sloka. This may have twoindications:> 1. Sign Cancer was

> > > rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was risingwith Sun in dignity i.e. at

> > Noon

> > > time> As namkaran sanskar of all thefour brothers had taken

place

> > > simultaneously after the appearance ofLORD RAMA ON THE EARTH,

THE

> > > LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> ANDLOGICAL.> Kindly

advise,> >

> > >

> > > > G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-

110

> > > 076> INDIA > > > > ----- Original Message----> Sreenadh

> > > <sreesog@>> To:ancient_indian_

> > > <%40>

> > > astrology Sent:

> > > Tuesday, 13 November,2007 12:59:08 PM> Subject:

> > > Re: Contextualmeaning of the

> > > word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >Dear Rao ji &

> > Goal

> > > ji,> I could see that both of you are of theopinian

that " Kuleera "

> > >

> > > means " Cancer Sign " as used in ValmikiRamayana. Interesting!

Let us

> > >

> > > for argument sake accept that it meansCancer sign itself - in >

> > > Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify myfollowing doubt. The

sloka

> > >

> > > given in Valmiki Ramayana is " SarpeJatastu Saumitri Kuleera

> > abhudite

> > > > Ravo " - as per your meaning thesloka would get transilated >

> > > as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born inAslesha Nakshatra when

Sun >

> > > was in Cancer " ! Now the questions -> * Doyou mean to say that

> > > Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > afterthe birth of

Rama

> > > and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poetor the

> > > interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move4

> > > signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and

> > brotherstook

> > > birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely

believethat

> > > you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem.

> > >Love,>

> > > Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> > com,Gopal

> > > Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Friends,> > Mr.

Raois a

> > > great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is

> > > toguide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> >

Sloka

> > > onthe birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to >

> > > twopossibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.> > 2

Sign

> > > Cancerwas rising and Sun was placed in most prominent >

> > position ,i.e

> > > NOON>> As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was

performed

> > > >simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> >

> > > Lakshamanand Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra >

> > when

> > > Cancer wasrising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> > Ph:

09350311433> >

> > > Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA > > > > >

> >

> > > > -----Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao

> > > <ramadasrao@ ...>>> ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> > com>

> > > > Monday, 12November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE:

> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology]Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' -

To

> > > Finn ji> > > > Dear Finn Ji,> >As per my knowledge you are

> > correct.As

> > > per Brihajjataka, Yavana >Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka

> > Rashi.>

> > > > karkaHkuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho >

> > > vihitaschadhaatuH.......This shloka is from Yavana

Jataka.Meaning >

> > > karkataka Rashi islike the shape of KulIraakruti which is in >

> > > water,kalapurusha' schest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative

of >

> > > Dhatu sign orRashi,also indicative of well,river and watery

land.>

> > >

> > > I hope thishelps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > >

> >

> > >

> > > > > To:ancient_indian_ astrology> >

> > > sreesog@> > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:

> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' -

> > > ToFinn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us consider your

> > > majorarguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as Capricorn

is

> > > also farfetched, to > > > say the least, since all the

astrological

> > > textsdescribe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That is simply your

> > > ignorance- many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with

in

> > > detail - andclarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could

> > > mean 'Capricorn'.To convince you, I will provide a> > details

> > quotes

> > > and referencesfrom them in the next post. > > ==>> > > If you

are

> > > using " Lagna " forsigns, then you cannot help placing > > > five

> > > planets of Bhagwan Ramain Karkata, since this is what> > > the

> > ninth

> > > sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > > >

> > > svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshukarkate lagne vakpatav induna

> >

> > >

> > > saha " > > <==> > This too issimply ignorance. The sloka bit

> > > means " (Rama took birth)> > inPunarvasu Nakshatra, while 5

planets

> > > where in own house or> >exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon

in

> > > Cancer sign " . Two things> >should be noted here -> > 1) To

denote

> > > Cancer sign the word Karkata isused (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2)

There

> > too

> > > the word " Lagna " means " Sign " itself. Note that> > " karkate lagne

> > > vakpatav induna saha " means " InCancer SIGN Jupitor > was> > with

> > > Moon " > > ==>> > > Secondly, wecannot overlook the fact

> > that " Adyatma

> > > Ramayana " , > which > > > yousays was written in Kerala, contains

> > the

> > > following shlokas> > <== > >There is more than one ignorance in

> > your

> > > statements. Let see what> >they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana

is

> > NOT

> > > a text written in Kerala.It is - " an> > ancient Sanskrit work

> > > extolling the spiritual virtuesof the story > of> > Ramayana. It

> > > comprises around 4200 verses, isembedded in > Brahm & #257;nda> >

> > > Purana and is considered to beauthored by Ved Vyasa " -

wikipedia.>

> > >

> > > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Adhyatma_ Ramayana)> > 2) What is

> > > popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDEDTRANSILATION of> > Adyatma

> > Ramayana

> > > written by Tunjattu RamanujanEzhuttacchan who is> > known as

> > > the 'father of malayalam language' agreat scholar. > > 3) We are

> > NOT

> > > discussing Adhyatma Ramayana butVALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't

> > bring

> > > in irrelevant quotes in between.Note that while Valmiki> >

Ramayana

> > > does not mention Madhu masa etcAdhayata Ramayana does it.> >

Note

> > > that while Valmiki Ramayana tellsus that the birth took place >

in>

> > >

> > > the 12th (Nakshatra) Month fromthe end date of Putra kameshti,>

>

> > > Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that ithappened at the 10th month.

So >

> > > with> > this much inconsistenciesbetween these two texts -

Adhyatma

> > >

> > > Ramayana> > quote is NOT worthconsidering while

> > discussing " Astrology

> > > in > Valmiki> > Ramayana " . Itis clear that you are bringing in

the

> > > Adhyatma > ramayana> > quoteonly because it mentions your

> > pet " Madhu

> > > Masa " in it - but > that> >is irrelevant to the current context.

> > > Please try to depend ONLY ON> >references from Valmiki Ramayana

> > alone

> > > while discussing the same. > >4) I am not interested in your

habit

> > > and inconsistent nature in> >studying subject and introducing

> > > diversions. So I don't have any >time> > to waste after the

quote

> > and

> > > inconsistencies you presentedregarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana

> > > quote. Again it simply means that Ihave > wasted> > enough time

on

> > > the ignorance of " TropicalCalendarvalas " . > > Note: So learn

to be

> > > sincere and be truthful -and if clarity comes> > in from some

where

> > > learn to welcome it †" and if possible drop the> > fanatism

> and

> > > use of bad words. You aredragging me to the same> > direction â

> > € "

> > > `I know only to deal withbad with bad and good with > good'> >

â

> > € "

> > > so the end result wouldbe the group becoming a mud house and I>

>

> > > don't want it. So pleaseavoid name calling here onwards and me

too>

> > >

> > > will never resort to it.Let us keep the group clean and sane. >

> > > People> > has already startedcomplaining about the insane

useless

> > > direction > in> > which thisgroup is going - both you and me are

> > > culprits for the > same.> >Please know it as a fact. > >

Regards,>

> > >