Contextual meaning of the word Kuleera in Ramayana - To Rao ji

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sreenadh ji + list members

 

May I suggest that rather than get “bogged”

down with thinking that the Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar –

wouldn’t it make more sense in treating them

as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

 

After all from Valmiki

Ramayana if the Naming ceremony was conducted 11 days After Shri Ram’s

Birth then doesn’t it make more sense that Shri Ram’s Birth Nak was

Punarvasu whilst Bharat’s was Pushyami and Lakshmana and Satrukhna was Ashlesha?

This wouldn’t then contradict Any Tithi’s mentioned per Planetary placements.  

 

Trusting this explanation helps in

clearing up any confusion in your understanding of the text (?) …….

 

Best wishes and regards …….

 

Jai Sita Ram

 

Ram

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Sreenadh

15 November 2007 09:30

 

Subject:

Re: Contextual meaning of the word

" Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Ramdas ji,

There was no need for such a long but providing 'nothing new' mail.

Look at this statement:

==>

The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki

in theRamayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the

king ofAyodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has

made sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to

the life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

zodiac constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to

add that similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in

thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary

configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as given

in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

calendar can be known.

Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

(visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as

Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

(Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

<==

Note the following points -

* From the primary reference, i.e. Valmiki Ramaya itself, we now

know well about the sloka, planetary configuration and possibilities.

* It would well known to even kids in astrology that with Navami

tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra - Sun CANNOT be in Mesha (Aries) - I

hope you are above that status. In this scenario what is the use of

mentioning some great 'Palatarium' software and uselessly trying to

be authentic with an erroneous data?!! (which the auther of that

article is doing)

Note the bogus and erroneous argument in the following lines as

well.

==>

> The results indicated that this wasexactly the location of

> planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was

> born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years back).

<==

Note the following points -

* If we consider the possible position of Vernal Equinox as per the

indications given in Valmiki Ramayana - the same planetary position

CANNOT repeat for at least 26000 years! So the usual argument such

as 'the same planetary position may repeat after 1000 years or so'

become useless in the case of Rama's horoscope. In Rama's horoscope,

the Sun is near equinox, and so if we look for a repeating similar

planetary position it should be at least before 26000 years!

* BC 10,5114 is NOT Treta Yuga but Dwapara Yuga - even as per the

calculation of Yugas! ) Did you missed this point as well?

It is very very clear that the document you supplied is a fool's

document, who knew nothing about history or astronomy - as evident

from the following words -

==>

Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born

2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas Ram

was born 7,000years back.

<==

And you still consider it as an authentic document! I thought you

will have better and credible arguments! It would be a waste of my

time to analyze this useless document in more detail. So i am

stopping here itself. Any way, I expected something better from you.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

,

HosabettuRamadas Rao

<ramadasrao wrote:

>

>

> Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> But I have another source which says the birth of Shri Rama has

occured in a different birth and time.I am reproducing that

information source for your information.

> *Was Lord Ram Really Born?* We Indians are the products of one

of the oldest civilisations. We need tobe really proud of our ancient

history and cultural heritage. However,during the British Rule, we

developed an inferiority complex, whichadversely affected our quest

to unearth facts relating to our glorious past.But our young and

educated men and women, born and brought up in independentIndia, are

capable of unearthing the true facts and are confident enough

toevaluate these objectively. Shri Ram being most basic to

Indian " ethos " , it is necessary to know who isShri Ram? Was he really

 

born? If yes, when and where? As is believed bycrores of people did

he really put his feet on the Indian territory

fromNorth to South,

reducing the sufferings of mankind and ensuring victory ofgood over

evil? Let us take a look at historical facts: The story of Shri

Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in theRamayana,

which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king ofAyodhya.

Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made

sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to the

life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis zodiac

constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to add that

similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in

thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary

configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as given

in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue

Service had acquired thissoftware from the US. It is used to predict

the solar/lunar eclipses anddistance and location of other planets

from earth. He entered the relevantdetails about the planetary

positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki andobtained very interesting

and convincing results, which almost determine theimportant dates

starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of hiscoming back to

Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in

Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri Ram

was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

(visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as

Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

(Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon). This

data, was fed into the software. The results indicated that this

wasexactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10,

5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years

back). As per theIndian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla

Paksha in Chaitra month andthe time was around 12 to 1 noontime. This

is exactly the time and date whenRam Navmi is celebrated all over

India.

Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained

from severalbooks written by Indian and foreign authors before and

after the birth ofChrist - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan, Kalidasa's

Raghuvansam, Baudh andJain literature, etc. These books have narrated

in great detail thelocation, rich architecture and beauty of Ayodhya

which had many palaces andtemples built all over the kingdom. Ayodhya

was located on the banks of theSaryu river with Ganga

and Panchal

Pradesh on one side and Mithila on theother side. Normally 7,000

years is a very long period during whichearthquakes, storms, floods

and foreign invasions change the course ofrivers, destroy the

towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore,the task of

unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya hasshrunk in

size and the rivers have changed their course about 40 kmnorth/south.

Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per

ValmikiRamayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan

(Sidhhashram). Fromthere he went to Mithila, King Janaka's kingdom.

Here he married Sita afterbreaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers have

gone along the route adopted byShri Ram as narrated in the Valmiki

Ramayan and found 23 places which havememorials that commemorate the

events related to the life of Shri Ram. Theseinclude Shringi Ashram,

Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram,Janakpur (now in

Nepal),

Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great menand not for

fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned in

Valmiki Ramayan's AyodhyaKand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to make

Shri Ram the king because Sun,Mars and Rahu had surrounded his

nakshatra, and normally under suchplanetary configuration the king

dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies.Dashratha's zodiac sign was

Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. Thisplanetary configuration was

prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it wason this day that Shri

Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was25 years old at

that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in ValmikiRamayan

which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left Ayodhyafor

exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of war

withKhardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile. It is

alsomentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle. When

this data wasentered, the software indicated that there was a solar

eclipse on October 7,5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen from

Panchvati. The planetaryconfiguration was also the same - Mars was in

the middle, on one side wereVenus and Mercury and on the other side

were Sun and Saturn. On the basis ofplanetary configurations

described in various other chapters, the date onwhich Ravana was

killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ramcompleted 14

years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was alsoNavami of

Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back toAyodhya

at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar, researched

on places visited by Shri Ram duringhis exile, and sequentially moved

to the places stated as visited by ShriRam in the Valmiki Ramayan,

starting from Ayodhya he went right uptoRameshwaram. He found 195

places which still have the memorials connected tothe events narrated

in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram andSita. These

include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur), BhardwajAshram

(situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram

(Markundi),Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari), Panchvati,

Sita Sarovar, RamKund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari Ashram,

Kishkindha (villageAnnagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple. (The

writer is a Commissioner of Income Tax posted at Delhi. The

articlewill conclude on the Oped page on Monday) In Valmiki Ramayan

it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed abridge over the sea

between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing thisbridge, Shri Ram's

army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures(reproduced

here) on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of whichare

lying submerged in Palk Strait between

Rameshwaram and Sri

Lanka.Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire to

develop SitaVatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this was

Ashok Vatika whereRavana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076 BC).

Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the Suryavansh

and hewas the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other

relevant particularsof previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka

Itihas written about 80 yearsago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram. Professor

Subhash Kak of Lousiana

University,in his book,

The Astronomical Code

of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63ancestors of Shri Ram who ruled

over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have beentraced out as: Shri Ram,

King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilipand so on. From

Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat,everywhere people

believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence,particularly in the

tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh andthe North-

East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas revolvearound

the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events and

places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are truecultural and

social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste andcreed.

Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to

theperiod when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and

Muslim orChristian faiths were unknown to the world. The words Hindu

(resident ofHindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were

synonymous. India was

alsoknown as Bharat (land of knowledge) and

Aryavarta (where Aryans live) andHindustan (land of " Hindus " -

derived from word Indus). During Ram Rajya,

the evils of caste system

based on birth werenon-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is stated

to be of shudra class(scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him as

his adopted daughter aftershe was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and Kush

grew in his ashram as hisdisciples. We need to be proud of the fact

that Valmiki was perhaps thefirst great astronomer and that his study

of planetary configurations hasstood the test of times. Even the

latest computer softwares havecorroborated his astronomical

calculations, which proves that he did notcommit any error. Shabari

is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's army,which

succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals

fromCentral and South India. The facts, events

and all other details

relating tothe life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all the

Indians includingscheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims,

Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus

Christ was born 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years

back, whereas Ram was born 7,000years back. Hence, discovering the

details relating to Shri Ram's life wouldbe lot more difficult as

destruction caused by floods, earthquakes andinvasions etc., would be

far greater. But, should that stop our quest forlearning more about

our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the fact

that the Indian civilisationis the most ancient civilisation today.

It is certainly more than 10,000years old. Therefore, let us reject

the story of Aryan invasion in India

in1,500 BC as motivated

implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creatorof this theory

had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the BritishRule, we

were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of

thinkingwhich believed that everything Indian was inferior and that

entire " Indianliterature was not worth even one book rack in

England " .

If there weresimilarities in certain features of Indian

people and people from CentralEurope, then automatic inference drawn

was that the Aryans coming fromEurope invaded India and settled here.

No one dared of thinking in any otherway. Therefore, there is urgency

for the historians and all otherintellectuals to stop reducing Indian

history to myth. There is need togather, dig out, search, unearth and

analyse all the evidences, which wouldthrow more light on ancient

Indian civilisation and culture. There is need for the print and the

electronic media to take note of thesefacts and create atmosphere

which would motivate our young and educatedyouth to carry out

research and unearth true facts about the ancient Indiancivilisation

and wisdom and would also encourage them to put across theresults of

their research before the people fearlessly and with a sense

ofpride! There is no need of great austerities or penances to

worship the LordRamacandra, for He accepts even a small service

offered by His devotee. ThusHe is satisfied, and as soon as He is

satisfied, the devotee is successful.Indeed, Lord Sri Ramacandra

brought all the devotees of Ayodhya back home,back to Godhead.

(Spoken by Hanuman in Srimad bhagvatam)With best Regards,Ramadas Rao.

>

>

>

> : sreesog: Wed, 14 Nov 2007

16:02:03 +0000 Re: Contextual

meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

>

>

>

>

> Dear Ramdas ji,You don't seem to have paid much attention to, or

read the debateson Rama's chart going on in this group at all! If you

had you shouldhave well understood that the chart given in Ramayana

is - note it anddon't miss it again -Rama's chart============* The

Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are usingJHora put -

156 Gregorian calendar for the year)The planatry details are as

follows -* Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra* Moon in Cancer (Own

sign)* Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)* Sun in Pisces * Mercury in Pisces

(Debilitated)* Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)* Mars in Capricorn

(Exalted)* Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)* Lagna - Not mentioned. Note

that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus

thestatement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes

true. Bharata's Chart===============* Planetary position - same as

above.* Nakshatra - Pushya * Lagna - Not givenLakshmana and

Satrukhna======================= * Planetary position - same as

above.* Nakshatra - Aslesha* Lagna - Not givenNote that all the

conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana getssatisfied. Note that the

charts match perfectly well with thedescription given in Valmiki

Ramayana. Hope this helps.Love,Sreenadh

,

HosabettuRamadas

Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> You have

not

understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama " s chart asdepicted by

Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of birthetc.?> With

Regards,> Ramadas Rao> > > @:

sreesog@:

Wed, 14 Nov 200704:50:39 +0000 Re:

Contextualmeaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji>

> >

> > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are living

andwhat about the planetary movements and their acceleration in

TretaYuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with

precessionseconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to solve

the rhythmof solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its

significance.The ancient sages were far more intelligent and better

that theillogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers represent

Solaryears, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and

complementary toour current understanding of human history,

archeology and evolution(of solar system, earth, life on earth) all

such ideas becomeirrelevant. So one should try to understand ancient

concepts in tunewith out current knowledge and understanding. I hope

that clarifies mystand point. Now let us approach your question in

anotherperspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga' is

notapplicable to our current astrology then, we should even

avoiddiscussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If it is

so,then why some so called guru of gurus is using such

planetarypositions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet

theories? Toquote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>>

Pt.XXXXXX wasusing mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary positions

are same .And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa and

arudhas andeven the life of sri ramji is > detail with this data .So

much exaltedplanets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his excile

to forest andthe curses he got ,even > how it was fructified tru a

servant maid thehunchback > Mandara,and things like that and Venus

exalted was showingthe> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted as

5th lord was showing >the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th from

arudha lagna was > showingthe marital problems he faced .This was the

line of > discussionsgenerally i think .......<==Hope you will have

an answer. ==>> Howmany thousands of years have passed from Treta

Yuga to the > presentKali Yuga ? Do you think that all the planets

have the same >movements or acceleration in the present Yuga also ??

Do you have >any reference regarding such planetary movements during

Krita >Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is clear

that allthese questions become irrelevant in then light of

clarificationsgiven above. :)Love,Sreenadh---

In ,

HosabettuRamadas

Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I have a

small

queryregarding your main question itself.At present which in which

Yuga weare living and what about the planetary movements and

theiracceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years have

passedfrom Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think that

all theplanets have the same movements or acceleration in the present

Yugaalso ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary

movementsduring Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?Because I

have no ideaof planetary movements in those great Yugas.> Regards,>

Ramadas Rao.>> > @: sreesog@:

Tue, 13 Nov

2007 13:51:01+0000 Re: Contextual

meaning of theword " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal

ji> > > >

> Dear Goelji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish etc.

Please do notloose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I was

astonished tosee these statements!!! Read carefully the statement of

me which youare talking against! ==>> Do you think that either the

poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will

move 4signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and

brothers tookbirth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a simple

word withoutanything wrong associated with and I was not addressing

anyone inparticular but was speaking about the subject! Actually I

don'tbelieve that none of the possible author's of that text cannot

be thatfoolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this simple

fact.(i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He was

agreat scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other

poet:If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book

likeRamayana, he is never going to commit this mistake.Interpolator:

Ifsomeone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in

Sanskrit,and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be

intelligent enoughto maintain the constancy. Thus the conclusion -

What ever the periodof the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am

asking you to simplepossibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our part in

understanding it andinterpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)

==================If Lagna meansSign and Kuleera means then,

" " Sarpe

Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhuditaaravo " - get translated as

" Lekhmana

and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in

Capricorn Sign " - and everypieces of the puzzle fall in right places

& for sure we startappreciating the intelligence and knowledge of the

poet. See this as afact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)

===============================IfKuleera means Capricorn

then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhudite ravo " - get

translated

as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun was

in Cancer Sign " . I failed to see,how it coherently integrates the

pieces of the puzzle, without makingus question the intelligence and

knowledge of the poet. Please correctme if I am wrong. That was why

my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to saythat Lekhmana and Satrukhna were

born 4 months > after the birth ofRama and Bharata? Or> * Do you

think that either the poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to

believe that Sun will move 4signs in a single day (if it > is assumed

that rama and brothers tookbirth in consecutive days)<==I was simply

asking you to clarify yourview - regarding this issue. And I thought

that you have an answer tothis question. And that is why I said - " I

sincerely believe that youwill have a clear solution to suggest for

this problem " . I don'tbelieve, I have committed any sin or mistake in

my earlier mail!Actually your previous mail didn't addressed this

question - and youwere hastily making the statement - " Why are you

using such words likefoolish etc. Please do not loose your cool and

temper and that too.... " Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji, what

is this? I respectyou and we are doing simple academic discussion -

let us sincerelylook into the possibilities.Love and regards,Sreenadh-

-- In ,

Gopal Goel

<gkgoel1937@>wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become

exited too

soon. Why are youusing such words like foolish etc. Please do not

loose your cool andtemper and that too for proving > something which

you believe is rightand others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is

incarnation of GOD, AND ITDOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED ON

THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYANGIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND TEACHING.THE

RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA ISA GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE INSPIRATION IN

OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> Ifyou also view Lord Shri Rama in the same

light, some worthwhilediscussion is possible among

ourselves,otherwise at least I do notwish to join such discussions.>

In astrology ,Kuleer means only cancer. Ravao is appearing separately

in the Sloka. This may have twoindications:> 1. Sign Cancer was

rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was risingwith Sun in dignity i.e. at Noon

time> As namkaran sanskar of all thefour brothers had taken place

simultaneously after the appearance ofLORD RAMA ON THE EARTH, THE

LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> ANDLOGICAL.> Kindly advise,> >

>

> G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-110

 

076> INDIA > > > > ----- Original Message----> Sreenadh

 

<sreesog@>> >

 

Tuesday, 13 November,2007 12:59:08 PM>

Re: Contextualmeaning of the

word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >Dear Rao

ji & Goal

ji,> I could see that both of you are of theopinian that " Kuleera "

>

means " Cancer Sign " as used in ValmikiRamayana. Interesting! Let us

>

for argument sake accept that it meansCancer sign itself - in >

Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify myfollowing doubt. The sloka >

given in Valmiki Ramayana is " SarpeJatastu Saumitri Kuleera abhudite

> Ravo " - as per your meaning thesloka would get transilated >

as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born inAslesha Nakshatra when Sun >

was in Cancer " ! Now the questions -> * Doyou mean to say that

Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > afterthe birth of Rama

and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poetor the

interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move4

signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and brotherstook

birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely believethat

you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem. >Love,>

Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology,Gopal

Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Friends,>

> Mr. Raois a

great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is

toguide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> > Sloka

onthe birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to >

twopossibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.> > 2

Sign

Cancerwas rising and Sun was placed in most prominent > position ,i.e

NOON>> As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was performed

>simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> >

Lakshamanand Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra > when

Cancer wasrising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> > Ph:

09350311433> >

Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA > >

> > > > >

> -----Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao

<ramadasrao@ ...>>> ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com>

> Monday, 12November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE:

[ancient_indian_ astrology]Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To

Finn ji> > > > Dear Finn Ji,> >As per my knowledge you are

correct.As

per Brihajjataka, Yavana >Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka Rashi.>

> karkaHkuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho >

vihitaschadhaatuH.......This shloka is from Yavana Jataka.Meaning >

karkataka Rashi islike the shape of KulIraakruti which is in >

water,kalapurusha' schest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative of >

Dhatu sign orRashi,also indicative of well,river and watery land.> >

I hope thishelps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> > >

> > > > > > >

> > To:ancient_indian_ astrology> >

sreesog > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:

[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' -

ToFinn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us consider

your

majorarguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as

Capricorn is

also farfetched, to > > > say the least, since all the astrological

textsdescribe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That is

simply your

ignorance- many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with in

detail - andclarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could

mean 'Capricorn'.To convince you, I will provide a> > details quotes

 

and referencesfrom them in the next post. > > ==>> > > If you

are

using " Lagna " forsigns, then you cannot help placing > > >

five

planets of Bhagwan Ramain Karkata, since this is what> > > the ninth

sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > > >

svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshukarkate lagne vakpatav induna > > >

saha " > > <==> > This too issimply ignorance. The sloka bit

 

means " (Rama took birth)> > inPunarvasu Nakshatra, while 5 planets

where in own house or> >exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon in

Cancer sign " . Two things> >should be noted here -> > 1) To

denote

Cancer sign the word Karkata isused (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2) There too

the word " Lagna " means " Sign " itself. Note that> >

" karkate lagne

vakpatav induna saha " means " InCancer SIGN Jupitor > was> >

with

Moon " > > ==>> > > Secondly, wecannot overlook the fact

that " Adyatma

Ramayana " , > which > > > yousays was written in Kerala,

contains the

following shlokas> > <== > >There is more than one ignorance in

your

statements. Let see what> >they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana is

NOT

a text written in Kerala.It is - " an> > ancient Sanskrit work

extolling the spiritual virtuesof the story > of> > Ramayana. It

comprises around 4200 verses, isembedded in > Brahm & #257;nda> >

Purana and is considered to beauthored by Ved Vyasa " - wikipedia.> >

 

(http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Adhyatma_

Ramayana)> > 2) What is

popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDEDTRANSILATION of> > Adyatma

Ramayana

written by Tunjattu RamanujanEzhuttacchan who is> > known as

the 'father of malayalam language' agreat scholar. > > 3) We are NOT

discussing Adhyatma Ramayana butVALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't bring

in irrelevant quotes in between.Note that while Valmiki> > Ramayana

does not mention Madhu masa etcAdhayata Ramayana does it.> > Note

that while Valmiki Ramayana tellsus that the birth took place > in> >

the 12th (Nakshatra) Month fromthe end date of Putra kameshti,> >

Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that ithappened at the 10th month. So >

with> > this much inconsistenciesbetween these two texts - Adhyatma

>

Ramayana> > quote is NOT worthconsidering while discussing

" Astrology

in > Valmiki> > Ramayana " . Itis clear that you are bringing in

the

Adhyatma > ramayana> > quoteonly because it mentions your pet

" Madhu

Masa " in it - but > that> >is irrelevant to the current context.

Please try to depend ONLY ON> >references from Valmiki Ramayana alone

while discussing the same. > >4) I am not interested in your habit

and inconsistent nature in> >studying subject and introducing

diversions. So I don't have any >time> > to waste after the quote and

inconsistencies you presentedregarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana

quote. Again it simply means that Ihave > wasted> > enough time on

the ignorance of " TropicalCalendarvalas " . > > Note: So

learn to be

sincere and be truthful -and if clarity comes> > in from some where

learn to welcome it †" and if possible drop the> > fanatism

and

use of bad words. You aredragging me to the same> > direction

†"

`I know only to deal withbad with bad and good with > good'> >

†"

so the end result wouldbe the group becoming a mud house and I> >

don't want it. So pleaseavoid name calling here onwards and me too> >

will never resort to it.Let us keep the group clean and sane. >

People> > has already startedcomplaining about the insane useless

direction > in> > which thisgroup is going - both you and me are

culprits for the > same.> >Please know it as a fact. > > Regards,>

>

Sreenadh> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com, " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > ><jyotirved@ ..>

wrote:> > >> > > Shri

Sreenadh ji,> > > Namaskar!> > >You are talking of an event

of second

century BCE. The Surya > > >Sidhanta, which gives the mothodology of

calculating " lagna " was > > >very much in vogue then. When

you are

using the word Lagna in the > >> context of planetary positions vis-a-

vis some horoscope/birth >chart, > > > it is unimaginable that

instead of the commoninterpretation of > the > > > word Lagna

i.e.

the sign rising at aparticular time, > > > the " astrologer "

concerned

would have resortedto some other > meaning > > > of that word! He

could very well haveused the word " rashi " > instead > > >

of Lagna

then.> > > Secondly, tointerpet Kuleera as Capricorn is also far

fetched, > to > > > say theleast, since all the astrological texts

describe it as > > > Karkata!>> > Then you are also ascribing

 

a " misprint " or some problem > > > with " Sandhi " for

the

word " abyudyete ravav " and interpreted it > as > > >the

description

of Mars in Capricorn! That also is far fetched!> > > >> > If

you are

using " Lagna " for signs, then you cannot help placing >> >

five

planets of Bhagwan Rama in Karkata, since this is what the >> > ninth

sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > >

>svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshu karkate lagne vakpatav induna > >

>saha " Here you can club the words as " panchasu graheshu karkate

> >

>lagne, vakpatav induna saha " and interpret them as " five planets

> >

>were in Karkata rashi, which included the Moon and Jupiter " . You >

>

>cannot interpret " lagna " as sign in one place and at the same

> time

>> > as lagna i.e. aschendant in another place in one and the same

>

>> chapter.> > > > > > The maximum difficulty that

arises out of

thishypothesis is that > in > > > second century BCE, there was

nomethodology of calculating > planets > > > correctly, whether it

wasIndia or any other country! India,

on > the > > > other hand,

wassaddled with the Surya Sidhanta, which is > > > fundamentally the

mostincorrect work. So it is just a > possibility > > > that

theastrologer concerned could have calculated the planetary > >

>positions as per the Surya Sidhanta and then implanted them in > the

>> > Valmiki Ramayana! Those calculatons can give very surprising >

>

>results!> > > > > > Secondly, we cannot overlok the fact

that " AdyatmaRamayana " , > which > > > you says was

written in Kerala,

contains thefollowing shlokas> > > " madhumasse site pakshe

navmyam

karkate shubhe>> > punarvasu sahite uchasthe grahapanchake> >

>

mesham pooshanisamprapte pushpavrishti samakule aviraseej jagan > > >

nathah parmatmasanatanah " (1/3/14-15)> > > > > > A

running

translation of theseshlokas is> > > " In the month of Madhu,

shukla

paksha --brighthalf--in navmi > tithi > > > and punarvasu

nakshara,

when five planetswere exalted, the sun > was > > > in Mesha, the

Eternal Lord of theworlds, Parmatma, > incarnated.. .. " > > >

> > > >

> > 1. Here the sunhas specifically been put in Mesha but at the >

same > > > time it isMadhu masa -- which is an astronomical

impossibility!> > > > > > 2.Five planets are exalted but

there is no

mention that any > planet > >> is in its own rashi..> > >

> > > 3.

Though there is no menion ofKarkata lagna or the Moon in > > >

Karkata, but if the Sun is in Meshaand it is Navmi tithi, it > means

> > > that even if the sun is in 1degree of Mesha the Moon has to be

> at a > > > distance of more than96 degrees from the same. Thus

the

Moon > will > > > be in Karkata 7degrees to Karkata 19 degrees. But

 

then Punarvasu > > > nakshatraranges from Mithuna 20 degrees to

Karkata 3-20. Thus it > > > is againan astronomical impossibility.>

>

> > > > In short, whichever way youlook at it, whether it is the

Valmiki > > > Ramayana or the AdyatmaRamayana, the astronomical Rashi

position > > > of the planets cannotbe justifed at all!> > >

With

regards,> > > AKK> > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_

astrology@

. com, " Sreenadh " > > ><sreesog@>

wrote:> > > >> > > >

Dear Finn ji,> > > > The root (dhatu)for the word 'Lagna' is 'Lag'

which means> > > > join/conjunct/mix/combine. 'Lagati' or

'Lagitam'

means " the > one > > > that> > > >joins/conjuncts/

mixes/combines " .

There are many words that > sprung> > > from> > > >

this root. Look

at the following word -> > > > " Lagna MandalaH " - it means

the same

as " Rasi Chakra " and means> > > >'Zodiac'. > > >

> Mandala = Chakra =

Circle> > > > Lagna = Rasi =Sign> > > > Lagna Mandala

means 'Sign

Circle' and 'Rasi Chakra' also >> > means

'Sign> > > > Circle' or in

other words both are other namesfor the > Ecliptic, > > > the>

> > >

zodiac circle. The word 'LagnaMandala' you can find in any > > >

standard> > > > Sanskritdictionary. Thus it is evident that the

word 'Lagna' > can> > > >means 'Sign'. Now coming to Nirukti,

the

word 'Lagna' has the> > > >following Nirukti -> > > >

'Lagati GrahaiH

iti Lagna' meaning 'the onewhich> > > > join/conjunct/ mix/combine

with Planets is called Lagna';> certainly > > > the> > >

> word lagna

here refers to 'Sign' becauseit is when the planets > > > joins>

> >

> (traverse through) signsthat the results originate. Thus every > >

> sign> > > > means'Lagna'. > > > > Another

Nirukti for the word

Lagna is 'Lagati Phalaiiti Lagna'> > > > meaning 'the one which

join/conjuct/ mix/combine (orin other > words> > > > shows) with

the

results is called Lagna'; herethe word 'Lagna' > can> > > >

refer

either to 'Sign' or to 'Asc'. > >> > Later the the word 'Lagna' got

a

better and clear definition > > >such as> > > > 'Raseenam

Udayo

Lagna' meaning the 'the rising sign iscalled > > > Lagna'.> >

> >

Note that here also the word lagna isessentially associated > with >

> > the> > > > word 'Sign', but stillit is due to importance

to the >

word 'rising'> > > > that it gottranslated as 'Asc'. Of course

since

the at the > > > horizon,> > > >the sky and the earth

joins and so

the word 'Lagna' is apt here > too>> > > and that is why the

translation of this word as 'Ascendant' > >> acceptable. > >

> > Note

that when used interchangeably with thewords Arudha (as > > > done>

>

> > in Prasnamarga) , the word 'Lagna'loses all its association >

with> > > > 'rising sign' even today, andresort to the old

meaning 'Sign'!> > > > Further there are many Lagnassuch as 'Ghati

Lagna', 'Hora > Lagna',> > > > 'Bhava Lagna', 'SreeLagna',

'Arudha

Lagna' etc some of which > are > > > NOT> > > > AT

ALLrelated

to 'rising' or 'horizon' in any way. Therefore > in > > >such>

> > >

contexts to translating the word 'Lagna' as 'Asc' becomes> > >

erroneous.. > > > > Considering all these points it becomesclear

that

accepting the> > > > meaning 'Sign' for the word 'Lagna' in'Valmiki

 

Ramayana' > context > > > is a> > > > truly

acceptableargument, well

supported by Nirukti and > > > Dictionaries.> > >

>Hope this helps. >

> > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >

> > --- Inancient_indian_

astrology, " Sreenadh " > > >

><sreesog@> wrote:> > >

> >> > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > The

niruktiand dictionary quotes

which gives the > > > meaning 'Sign' to> > > > >the

word 'Lagna' I

will provide - please wait for the next > post. > >> Now> >

> > >

coming to your next argument -> > > > > ==>> > >

> > >However, even

if we agree for the sake of argument that > lagna > > >means >

> > >

> > sign, how do you say that the sun was in Mina sinceit has > >

>

very > > > > > > clearly been stated " kuleere

abyuditeravav " i.e.

when the > sun > > > was > > > > > > in Kuleera

i.e.Karkata Rashi!

Thus even if we take the sun > of > > > > > > BhagwanRama

in Mina

instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana > > > and > > >

>> >

Shatrugana could not be in Karkata in any case.> > > > >

<==> > >> >

It is already answered in a previous mail to Kaul ji. But I > >

>will> > > > > re-state it here. > > > > >

" kuleere abyudite ravav "

Itcould be a simple sandhi mistake > > > of a> > > > >

missing 'aa'.

Andthe correct reading could be " kuleere> > > > >

abyuditaraavav " ,meaning " Mars (aara) was in Capricorn > > >

 

(Kuleera) " .> > > > > Notethat the meaning of the word

Kuleera is

given in Sanskrit> > > > >Nikhandus as " Kuleero Nakra

Karkatau "

meaning " The word > Kuleera > >> is> > > > >

used for Capricon and

Cancer " . The auther of Hridyapadha> vyakhya > > > of> >

> > >

Brihajjataka clearly quotes manyreferences from various > > >

Nikhandus and> > > > > argues that themeaning Capricorn for the

word

Kuleera is > also > > > very> > > > >popular. Note

that this solves

all the confusion and shows > that > >> apart> > > >

> from the

position of Ju & Mo in Cancer the textprovides the > > >

position> >

> > > of Many other planets as well.For example it is clear from >

the> > > > > description given alongwith Bharata's Nakshatra

that Sun

and > > > Mercury> > > > > are inPisces, and from the

one given along

while giving the > > > Nakshatra>> > > > of Lakshmana

and Satrukhna

that Mars is in Capricorn! So it >> > becomes> > > > >

clear that all

those brothers are born inconsecutive days, > and > > > also>

> > > >

that the poet didn't gavethe Asc of any of them - but only > the> >

>

> > planetary position. >> > > > Love,> > > >

> Sreenadh> > > > > > >

> > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology, " Avtar

>

Krishen > > >Kaul " > > > > > <jyotirved@>

wrote:> > > > > >> > > > >

> --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com,

" Sreenadh " > >

> > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > >

> > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,> >

> > > >Namaskar!> > > > > > From your curent

post, it appears that

both of usagree > that > > > the > > > > > >

astrological references

in theValmiki Ramayana are > > > concoctions > > > > >

> since the

planetarypositions appear to have been for a > period > > > of >

> >

> > >second century BCE.> > > > > > However, you

have also said> > >

> > >> > > > > > <4) While describing the

Nakshatra of Bharata

thestatement > > > given is> > > > > > " Pushye

jatastu bharato

MeenaLagne Prasanna Dhee " should be> > > > > >

translated to " Bharata

wasborn in Pushya Nakshatra, and at > > > that > > > >

> > time Sun

& Mercury was in the Sign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > > > means

> > > >

>> Sign - as per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit > dictionaries

>

>> and > > > > > > Nirukti of the word Lagna too

clearly support

thismeaning > of > > > the > > > > > > word

Lagna) ->> > > > > > > >

> > >> I do not agree with you here since no astrologer, howevr

> >

>useless or > > > > > > ignorant he/she may be or might

have been

wouldbe unaware > of > > > the > > > > > > fact

that lagna means a

signascending at the time of > > > birth/event. > > > >

> > There is

aproecedure for calculating the same in the Surya > > > Sidhanta >

>

>> > > also, even if that is the most inaccuate astronomical work.

>

>> The > > > > > > complete sholka is " Pushye

jatastu Bharato,

Minalagne > > > > > > prasannadheeh, sarpe jatatavtu

saumitri,

kuleereabyudite > > > ravav " --> > > > > >

1/18/15> > > > > > > > > >

> > Thusaccording to me Mina Lagna means Mila langa! However, > >

>

even > > >> > > if we agree for the sake of argument that

lagna means

sign, > >> how do > > > > > > you say that the sun

was in Mina since

it hasvery clearly > > > been > > > > > > stated

" kuleere abyudite

ravav " i.e. when the sun was in > > > Kuleera > > > >

> > i.e. Karkata

Rashi!Thus even if we take the sun of Bhagwan > > > Rama in > >

> > >

> Minainstead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana and Shatrugana > > >

could not> > > > > > be in Karkata in any case. > >

> > > > The names

ofnakshatras are very clear i.e. Shri RAm was > born > > > in >

> > >

>> Aditi-Daivata i.e. Punarvasu (ii) Bharata in Pushya and > (iii->

>

>iv)> > > > > > Lakshmana and Shatrugana in

" Sarpi " i.e. Ashlesha.

Theyare > > > in a > > > > > > sequence, but if the

sun of Lakshamana

andShatrugana is in > > > Karkata, > > > > > > who

are younger by

justtwo days, the sun of Shri Ram and > > > Bharata > > >

> > >

cannot beeither in Mina or Mesha!> > > > > > > > >

> > > Thus

whichever way welook at it, there certainly has been > a > > > >

> >

manipulation ofplanetary positions in the Valmiki Ramayana.> > > >

>

> With regards,>> > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul> > >

> > > >> > > > > >

> Dear Kaul ji,>> > > > > > ==>> > > >

> > > > ii) The planetary

position of BhagwanRam as given in > the > > > > > >

Valmiki > > > >

> > > > Ramaya was " implanted " in that work by some

" jyotishi " > of >

> > either > > > >> > > > that period or a later

one!> > > > > > >

<==> > > > > > >Exactly! Not only the horoscope but the

whole

Ramayana is > > > re-> >> > > > written> >

> > > > > by 'Brhamanic

priests' supported by Sungadynasty - is > the > > > correct>

> > > >

> > argument. (And not byJyotishis). Thus the currently > >

>

available> > > > > > > 'BrahmanicRamayana' (Why insult

sage Valmiki)

is clearly > > > the work > > > >> > of> >

> > > > > some 'brahmanic

poet' who lived after BC 157, whotook a > > > planetary> > >

> > > >

position known to him and ascribedit to Rama!! > > > > > >

> ==>> > >

> > > > > Since 157 BC is an eraof recorded history without any

> > >

> > > obscurity, we > > > > > >> > do not have

any such records that

a divine incarnation > > > cameinto > > > > > > >

> existence then,

especially since it is after theBudha-> > > Avtar and > > >

> > > > >

after the advent of Maya themlechha into India!> > > > > >

> <== > >

> > > > > You are absolutelyright! And that is why it is said

> that -

> > > it is> > > > > > >just the imagination of

the poet who wrote

this poem in > the > > >recent> > > > > > >

past. He just took

some samples from the recent> history > > > known to> > >

> > > > him

and manipulated the tocreate a long poem - that > > > fulfills his>

>

> > > > > purpose. Idon't have any disregard for the 'Brahmnic

>

poet' > > > who > > > > >> knew> > > >

> > > what he was doing - but

I feel pity for the peoplewho > > > mistook to> > > > >

> > represent

actual history, andbelieve that Monkey men > with a > > > tail>

> > >

> > > lived inrecent past and also that Sanskrit as used in > >

>

Ramayana> > > > >> > existed in the period of those monkey

people. )

> > > > > > >==>> > > > > > > >

Even here, you are using " J Hora " for

157 BC whenall > we > > > had at > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > >

point of timei.e. 157 BC by way of astronomical bibles > > > was the

> > > > > > >> Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha as

given in the >

Pancha > > > >> > Sidhantika!> > > > > >

> <== > > > > > > > Kaul ji,

that is notthat important - since the poet who > > > wrote> >

> > > >

> Ramyanais not that accurate in describing the charts - > not > >

>

that > > >> > > he is> > > > > > > not

giving any longitudes but only

describesa planetary > > > position > > > > > >

of> > > > > > > BC

157. Hegives the position of ALL THE PLANETS and > > > mentions

>

> > > > >that> > > > > > > it was Punarvasu

Nakshatra and that the

Tithi wasNavami. > No > > > great> > > > > > >

astronomical knowledge

isnecessory to mention this much, > and> > > > > > >

therefore

anysoftware will do. Further JHora most of > the > > > > >

>

peoplein> > > > > > > this group is having and they can

verify the

planetary> > > position > > > > > > using> >

> > > > > that. > > >

> > > >If you are bewildered by the statement that " ALL THE

> > >

PLANETSARE> > > > > > > MENTIONED " , then here goes

the

clarification:> > > >> > > 1) Thiti Navami, Nakshatra

Punar vasu -

clearly stated> > > > >> > 2) Ju, Ma in Cancer - clearly

stated.> > >

> > > > 3) 5 planets inown house or exaltation - statement not >

> >

clear.> > > > > > > Thencomes the interesting part ->

> > > > > > 4)

While describing theNakshatra of Bharata the > statement > > >

given

> > > > > > is> > > >> > > " Pushye

jatastu bharato Meena Lagne

Prasanna Dhee " should > be>> > > > > > translated

to " Bharata was

born in Pushya Nakshatra, and >at > > > that > > > >

> > time> > > >

> > > Sun & Mercury was in theSign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna

> means >

> > Sign - > > > > > > as> > >> > >

> per the usage in Ramayana; The

Sanskrit dictionaries and > > >Nirukti of> > > > > >

> the word Lagna

too clearly support thismeaning of the > word > > > > > >

Lagna) -> >

> > > > > Thus theposition of Sun and Mercury are clearly

stated!> >

> > > > > 5) Whiledescribing the Nakshatra of Lakshmana and >

> >

Satrukhna it is> > > >> > > said that the Nakshatra is

Aslesha and

also that " Kuleere> > > >> > > Abhuditeaaravo "

means " Arra (Mars) was

in Capricon > > >(Kuleera) " !! > > > > > >

Which> > > > > > > is

exact! Thus it becomesclear that our confusion > > > about 'Sun in>

>

> > > > > Cancer' wasjust because of a Sandhi problem!! - Thus

the >

> > position > > > > >> of> > > > > >

> Mars is clearly stated! > > >

> > > > 6) Thus whatremains is the position of Sa and Ve - which

> >

> as per > > > > > >the> > > > > > >

given Tropical chart of 14 March

157 BC becomes >clarified. > > > Sa is in> > > > >

> > Aquarius and

Ve is in Taurus! >> > > > > > Thus the poet knew well what

he is

speaking about - the >> > confusion> > > > > > >

till date regarding

this planetary positionbeing caused > by > > > our> > >

> > > >

ignorance and lack of effortto understand the facts! > > > > >

> >

Love,> > > > > > > Sreenadh>> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Avtar > >

> Krishen >

> > > > > Kaul " > > > > > >>

<jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > >

>

> > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>> > > > > > >

Namaskar!> > > > > > > >

<Calculate the planetaryposition for 14 March -156 > > >

(Gregorian>

> > > > > > > Calendar);9.15 PM approx in JHora; and

you will see >

what > > > I > > > > > >mean. The> > > >

> > > > Horoscope matches

well with the descriptionin > Ramayana.>> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> My dear Sreenadhji, youare making really a fool of > > > yourself

 

by > > > > > > such > > > >> > > >

comments!> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > All you are trying toprove is that the planetary > position

> >

> of > > > > > > > >Bhagwan Rama, as given in the

Valmiki Ramayana,

is the > > > planetary> > > > > > > > position

of March 14, 157 BC.

Obviously, this leads to> > > two > > > > > > >

> conclusions: > > >

> > > > > 1) EitherBhagwan Ram was born on that date i.e. March

> 14,

> > > 157 > > > > >> BC at > > > > >

> > > 9-15 PM> > > > > > > > or>

> > > > > > > ii)The planetary position of Bhagwan Ram as

given in >

the > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > >

> Ramaya was " implanted " in that

work by some " jyotishi " > of > > > either > > >

> > > > > that period

or a laterone!> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > Since 157 BC is an era

of recrodedhistory without any > > > > > > obscurity, we >

> > > > >

> > do nothave any such records that a divine incarnation > > >

came

into > > >> > > > > existence then, especially since it

is after the

Budha-> > >Avtar and > > > > > > > > after the

advent of Maya the

mlechha intoIndia!> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > Thus all you are

proving withyour astrological > knowledge > > > and > > >

> > >

latest > > > > > >> > astronomical softwares is that

some uselss and

foolish > > >jyotishi > > > > > > has > > >

> > > > > implanted the

planetaryposition of March 14, 157 BC > into > > > the > >

> > > > >

> ValmikiRamayana just to make even that divine > incarnation > >

> >

> > > >subservient to planetary suzarinity!> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >Even here, you are using " J Hora " for 157 BC when all

> we > > >

hadat > > > > > > that > > > > > > >

> point of time i.e. 157 BC by

wayof astronomical bibles > > > was the > > > > > >

> > Surya

Sidhanta ofMaya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha > > > >

> >

Sidhantika!> > >> > > > > And as is an open secret,

that is the most

useless > > >astronomical > > > > > > work > >

> > > > > > by someone

who did notknow even ABC of astronomy, so > much > > > so > >

> > > >

that > > >> > > > > he did not have any knowledge of

precession

either!> > > > >> > > QED/QEF> > > > >

> > > With regards, > > > > >

> > > AKK> > > >> > > > > > >

ancient_indian_ astrology@

. com, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > >

<sreesog@> wrote:> > > >

> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > > >

> > Calculate theplanetary position for 14 March -156 > > >

(Gregorian> > > > > > > > >Calendar); 9.15 PM approx

in JHora; and

you will see > > > what I > >> > > > mean. > >

> > > > > > The> > > >

> > > > > Horoscope matcheswell with the description in >

> >

Ramayana. > > > > > > > > > Let uslook at the core

argument of Kaul

ji -> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > >

>> > > > iii) The sun could never

be in Mesha -- whether the > so > > >> > > called >

> > > > > > >

sayana> > > > > > > > > > or the socalled

nirayana --- if it was

Madhu Masa > > > i.e. the > > > > > > >> first

> > > > > > > > > >

month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time ofbirth of > > > Bhagwan >

> >

> > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > <== >

> > >> > > > > I am yet to see any

reference in so called Valmiki > > >Ramayana > > > > >

> which> > > >

> > > > > states that 'Rama's birthtook place in Madhu Masa';

> I > >

> hope > > > > > > Kaul ji> > > > >>

> > > will come up with relevant

quote from the same > text. ;=) > >> > > > Actually >

> > > > > > >

if> > > > > > > > > we read throughRamayana we could

easily see that

the > > > birth > > > > > > took > >> >

> > > > place> > > > > > > >

> BEFORE the advent of Vasanta Ritu.> > > > > > > >

> Also note that

the meaning 'Sign(Rasi)' for the > >> word 'Lagna' > > > >

> > is a>

> > > > > > > > very popular one, andthe original one.

The Nirukta >

> > defenition > > > > > > of > > > >>

> > > the> > > > > > > > >

word 'Lagna' itself means 'Sign (Rasi)'and not Asc, > > > even >

> >

> > > though > > > > > > > > the> > >

>> > > > > second meaning

became popular later. > > > > > > > > > Andso the

conclusion - who

ever made up this text -> > > was > > > > > >>

> describing> > > > >

> > > > a recent planetary position which waswell known to > him

-> >

> > > > > > > possibly > > > > > > >

> a> > >> > > > > > planetary

position of some king in his own period, > and >> > that is >

> > > >

> why> > > > > > > > > Ramayana is a mereliterary

text, and NOT a

divine > one. > > > > > > > > > ==>> >

> > >> > > > > If some parts

of it seems to be confusing,> > > > > > > > >>

anachronistic,

interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > may > > >> >

> better to>

> > > > > > > > > simply wait and make

furtherinvestigations into >

the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > >

<==> > > > >> > > > I agree - but

is it not that these discussions itself > > > is> > > >

> > part of >

> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > >

>investigations into the subject?

> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > >

> >> > > You have come up with some

relevant questions > > > regarding >> > > > > >

> Ramayana's> > > > >

> > > > > description of thehoroscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > >

> > > > possible > > > > > >> > it >

> > > > > > > > > may be a good

idea to compare thesehoroscope-> > > descriptions > > >

> > > to > >

> > > > > > > >similar descriptions from other texts..

> > > > > > >

> > <==> > > > >> > > > Yes, I agree - and

our field is wast -> > > >

> > > > >Nirayana Astrology - Rishi Horas & Tantric

texts> > > > > >

> > >Sayana/Tropical Astrolology - Vedic literature, > Epics, >

> > >

> >Puranas > > > > > > > > etc > > >

> > > > > > There is lot

ofunprocessed, non-scrutinized data > > > around, and > > >

> > > we

> >> > > > > > can> > > > > > >

> > do much; though our studies -

whetherthe conclusions > > > agree > > > > > >

with> > > > > > > > >

popularnotions and beliefs or not. > > > > > > > >

> ==>> > > > > >

> > > >The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the

> > >

birth >> > > > > and > > > > > > > >

the> > > > > > > > > >

horoscopes ofboth Rama and Krishna. I have

seen > this > > > > > >

description> > >> > > > > > > myself. Why not compare

the description

from > Ramayana> > > with > > > > > > the >

> > > > > > > one> > > >

> > > > > >given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or are

> there >

> > > > > >> differences?> > > > >

> > > > > This may actually

provide us withsome new and > > > relevant > > > > >

> > >

information.> > > > > > >> > <==> >

> > > > > > > I agree - quote and

proceed. But remember onething - > > > our > > > > >

> major> > > > >

> > > > concern in thesediscussions is 'Astrology in Valmiki >

> > >

> > Ramayana' > > > > > >> > (and> > >

> > > > > > not merely the

horoscope of Rama), and letus not > forget > > > the > > >

> > > main

> > > > > > > > area> > > >> > >

> > of study, while dealing with

diversions. At the end > of > >> our > > > > > >

study, > > > > > > >

> for> > > > > > > > > suresome useful and

systematic material should

come > > > up. We > > >> > > > > will >

> > > > > > > > preserve

and present it - as abackground for further > > > > > > >

>

investigations> > > > > > > > >into other areas.

:=)> > > > > > > > >

Love,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---

In ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Finn > >

>

Wandahl " > > > > > > > > ><finn.wandahl@ >

wrote:> > > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > Dear Mr.Sreenadh & Mr.

Kaul,> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Perhapsone should not draw too hasty

conclusions > >

> regarding > > > > > >the > > > > > >

> > origin> > > > > > > > > >

of the Ramayana. If someparts of it seems to be > > > confusing,>

> >

> > > > > > >anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated,

then it > >

> may > > > >> > better to> > > > > >

> > > > simply wait and make

furtherinvestigations into > the > > > subject.> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > >> > > > > You have come up with some relevant

questions > >

>regarding > > > > > > > > Ramayana's> > >

> > > > > > > description

ofthe horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > > > > > >

possible > > >

>> > > > it may> > > > > > > > > >

be a good idea to compare

thesehoroscope-descripti > ons > > > to > > > >

> > similar> > > > >

> > >> > descriptions from other texts. > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > >> > The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of >

the > >

>birth > > > > > > and > > > > > > >

> the> > > > > > > > >

>horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna. I

have seen > this > > > > >

>description> > > > > > > > > > myself. Why

not compare the

descriptionfrom > Ramayana > > > with > > > > > >

the > > > > > > > >

one> > > >> > > > > > given in Garga Samhita? Are

they similar or are

> there >> > > > > > > differences?> >

> > > > > > > > This may

actuallyprovide us with some new and > > > relevant > > >

> > > >

>information.> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > :-)> > > > > >

>

>> > > > > > > > > > > > Finn> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

>> > > > > > > > > > > >

ancient_indian_ astrology@

, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > >

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > >

> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >

> > > Dear Kaul ji,> > > > > > > > > >

> ==>> > > >> > > > > > > > The best

option, therefore, is that we

must > admit >> > that > > > > > > these> >

> > > > > > > > > >

astrologicalcombinations in the Ramayanas are > > > later day>

> > >

> > > > > > >> interpolations > > > > >

> > > > > > <==> > > > > > >

> > > > Thenwhy don't with a better spirit accept that > >

> the > >

> > > > whole> > > > > > > > ramayana>

> > > > > > > > > > itself is

a made up textcreated between 2nd BC > and > > > 2 > > >

> > > AD?

> > > > > > >> With the> > > > > >

> > > > > numerous dereference to

Buddha & Jainreligions, > > > > > > Ardhasastra > >

> > > > > > (of>

> > > > > > >> > > Vishnugupta) etc and other

numerous facts, I >

believe > > >that > > > > > > it > > > >

> > > > is clear> > > > > >

> > > > > thatit is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD >

> > for

> > > > > >sure - > > > > > > > > or

better> > > > > > > > > > > in

2AD in Sungaperiod itself. > > > > > > > > > >

> There is no wonder

that theastrological > reference > > > in > > > > >

> > > Ramayana

is> > > > >> > > > > > utterly wrong and seems

to be made up and in

the > > >line of > > > > > > all > > > >

> > > > the> > > > > > > > >

> >Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly > > > superstitions.

> > >

> >> Actually > > > > > > > > that> >

> > > > > > > > > only can

beexpected from such a text that is NOT > AT > > > ALL > >

> > > > >

>written by> > > > > > > > > > > sage

Valmiki, but possibly by

somestupid > brahmins > > > of > > > > > > sunga

> > > > > > > >

period.>> > > > > > > > > > What else do you

think can be expected

from such >a > > > text?!!> > > > > > > >

> > > So I will request you

to betteraccept the fact > > > that - > > > > > >

The > > > > > > > >

whole> >> > > > > > > > > Ramayana itself is a

made up text - a text

> created> > > with a > > > > > > > > purpose

-> > > > > > > > > > >

createdbetween 2nd century BC and 2nd century > AD. > > > Even

the> >

> > > >> > > > > astronomical references in it is

going in the > same

> > > >> > direction. > > > > > > > >

If there> > > > > > > > > > >

WAS aValmiki Ramayana prior to the currently > > > available > >

> >

> >one (as> > > > > > > > > > >

referenced in Mahabharata) , then

thattext is > buried > > > in > > > > > > dept

> > > > > > > > by

the> > >> > > > > > > > political and

religious fanatics who had a >

purpose >> > and > > > > > > wanted > > >

> > > > > to> > > > > > > >

> > >project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by > > >

calling > >

> > >> Buddha > > > > > > > > a thief>

> > > > > > > > > > and

massmurdering Buddists. It was the hall make > of > > > that >

> > >

> >era > > > > > > > > (BC 200> > > >

> > > > > > > to AD 200),

andevident from many other literary > > > works as > > > >

> > > >

well.> > > > > > > > > > > So instead of going

against astrologers -

how >> > about > > > > > > going > > > >

> > > > against> > > > > > >

> > >> and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures > who

> > >

in a >> > > > > > > futile> > > > > >

> > > > > effort to spread

Animalkilling, and brahmin > > > projecting, > > > > >

> Yaga> > > >

> > > >> > > services, - rewrote all the good old ancient

> scripts >

> > and> > > > > > even > > > > > >

> > tried to> > > > > > > > > > >

steeland accommodate even the non-vedic > > > astrological > >

> > >

>signs > > > > > > > > also into> > > >

> > > > > > > scripts

thatpropagated such vedic rituals? Isn't > it > > > that > >

> > > >

> >Ramayana is> > > > > > > > > > > also

a clear proof of the same? >

> >> > > > > > > > I believe - this would be more

logically > >

>acceptable > > > > > > path, > > > > >

> > > with> > > > > > > > > >

>enough evidence in support. > > > > > > > > >

> > Endnote:

Ramayanais a made-up text. Not at all > > > > > > authentic.

> > > >

> > > >Giving it> > > > > > > > > >

> importance more than a simple

literarywork is > > > ignorance. > > > > > > Rama

> > > > > > > > is

god> > >> > > > > > > > or not is irrelevant

in an academic

discussion of > a> > > made > > > > > > up >

> > > > > > > text like>

> > > > > > > > >> Ramayana. Ramayana is a text

which is NOT written

> by > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > >

> for sure> > > > > > > > > >

> - he cannot besuch a corrupted, full of > partiality > > > and

> >

> > > > hatred> >> > > > > > > > >

influenced, ignorant individual.

Sage Valmiki was >a > > > great> > > > > > >

> > > > knowledgeable

sage as evident fromYoga Vasishta, > > > and > > > > >

> > >

ascribing the> > > > > > > >> > > authorship

of a text like currently

available > > > Ramayana on> > > > > > him > >

> > > > > > is a> > >

> > > > > > > > SIN, and aninsult of that great sage.

> > > > > > > >

> > > I wil better adoptthis line of thinking. > > > >

> > > > > > >

Love,> > > > > > > > > >> Sreenadh> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

 

> > > > > > >ancient_indian_ astrology@

.

com, " Avtar > > > > > > > >Krishen Kaul " >

> > > > > > > > > >

<jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > >

>> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri

Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > > > >>

Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > > >

<I request you to look in to thefollowing > > > argument and >

> > >

> > > > > > > > possibilities ->>> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > On the other hand Ireqeuswt all of you to > ponder

> > > on

the > > > > > > > > following> > > > >

> > > > > > > facts, even if

they are unpleasant:> > > > > >> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > 1.

The Valmiki Ramayana issupposed to be Aadi > > > Mahakavya > >

> > >

> > > i.e. the > > > > >> > > > > >

> very first Mahakavya (Epic) of

Indian history > and > >> > > > Maharshi > > >

> > > > > Valamiki > >

> > > > > > > > > > isknown as Aadi Kavi.>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > 2.The Mahabharata is a much

later work.> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >

> > > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to have

incarnated > much > > >> > > earlier > > > >

> > > > than > > > > > >

> > > > > > BhagwanKrishna.> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > 4. ShriKrishna is supposed to have incarnaed > > > much

> > > >

> > earlier >> > > > > > > than> > >

> > > > > > the > > > > > > > >

> > > >Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE> > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >> > > > > > > > > > A few

million dollar questions are:> > > >

> > > >> > > > a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis

or > Mangal >

> >Shani > > > > > > etc.> > > > > >

> > > planets > > > > > > > > >

> >> in the VJ> > > > > > > > > > >

> b) We do not find any Mesha

etc.Rashis in the > > > > > > Mahabharata> > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > >> > > > > > > c) We do not find any Mesha

etc. Rashis or any > >

>Mangal > > > > > > Shani > > > > > >

> > etc. > > > > > > > > > > >

>planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas > prior > > > to the

> >

>> > > > > Surya > > > > > > > > >

> > > Sidhanta of the

PanchaSidhantika!> > > > > > > > > > >

> The questions arising out of

thesefacts are:> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > i )How

comewe find the horoscopic details of > > > Bhagwan > > >

> > >

Rama,> > >> > > > > > Bharata, > > > >

> > > > > > > > Shatruna and

evenLakshamana in the Valmiki > > > Ramayana?> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > >> > > > > > > > > ii) How come in

spite of the best efforts of >

all >> > the > > > > > > > > astronomers >

> > > > > > > > > > >

nobody hasbeen able to reconcile the > > > irreconcilable > >

> > > >

facts > >> > > > > > that if > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bhagwan Rama was

born inSun in Mesha and Moon > in > > > > > > Karakta in

> > > > > >

> > > >> > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been >

> > Navmki

> > > >> > tithi > > > > > > > > or

vice-> > > > > > > > > > > >

versa?> > >> > > > > > > > > iii) The sun

could never be in Mesha --

whether > >> the so > > > > > > called> > >

> > > > > > sayana > > >

> > > > > >> > > or the so called nirayana --- if it

was Madhu > Masa

> > > i.e.> > > > > > the > > > > >

> > > first > > > > > > > > > > >

> month ofthe Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth > of > > > >

> >

Bhagwan > > > >> > > > Rama.> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

 

> > > iv)Thesun of the younger brothers could never > > >

have been >

> > > > > in> > > > > > > > Karkata >

> > > > > > > > > > > if the

sun of BhagwanRama was in Mesha or even > > > Mina!> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > In a

nutshell, the more we try to

reconcile > these > >> > > > > > irreconcilable >

> > > > > > > > > >

> facts, the more wewill be making a laughing > stock > > > of

> > >

> > > > > ourselves!>> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

The best option,therefore, is that we must > admit > > > that >

> > >

> > these > > >> > > > > > > > >

astrological combinations in the

Ramayanas are > > >later day > > > > > > > >

> > > > interpolations

by some good fornothing > > > overzealous > > > > >

> > > astrologers

who > > > > > >> > > > > > did not know

even this much of astronomy

that > if > > >the sun > > > > > > of > >

> > > > > > Bhagwan > > > >

> > > > > > > >Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it

could > never >

> > have > > >> > > been > > > > > >

> > in > > > > > > > > > > > >

Karkata justafter two days in the case of His > > > siblings!> >

> >

> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >

> > > > I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT JUST

FOR THIS FACT> THAT > > > WE DO > > > > > > NOT

> > > > > > > > HAVE

A > > > > > >> > > > > > HOROSCOPE OF

BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR HIM

HAS > > > > >> INCREASED > > > > > > >

> SINCE IT > > > > > > > > > >

> > MEANSTHAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA > > > KARTUM

> > >

> > > > >SAMARTH AND > > > > > > > >

> > > > NOT SUBJECT TO

PLANETARYSUZARINITY!> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

And thetail-piece of all this haranguing is > that > > > it >

> > > >

> means> > > > > > > > clearly > > > >

> > > > > > > > that Rishis

likeValmiki nad the Veda Vayasa > etc. > > > did not> > >

> > > > >

>believe in > > > > > > > > > > > > any

pedictive gimmicks either.> >

>> > > > > > > > > With regards,> > >

> > > > > > > > > Avtar

KrishenKaul> > > >> > >> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Invite your mail

contactsto join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces. It's

easy! Tryit! > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as

many mails as

you wish.To know > how, go to > http://help.

/

l/in//mail/mail/ tools/tools- 08.html> >> > >

> > > 5, 50,

500, 5000 -Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go

tohttp://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-

08.html> >> > > > >

>________>

 

Discoverthe new Windows Vista>http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?

q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE> > > > >

> > >

________>

Invite

your mail contacts to join your friends list with WindowsLive Spaces.

It's easy!>http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?

wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx & mkt=en-us>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________

> Discover the new Windows Vista

> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-

US & form=QBRE

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sreenadh

 

My original reply was purely to highlight

the error of thinking such Planetary configurations could only occur once in

time per your earlier note suggesting only 157 BC as a date ……..

 

I am glad you agreed with the folly …..

 

Regards …….

 

Jai Sita Ram

 

Ram

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Sreenadh

15 November 2007 08:12

 

Subject:

Re: Contextual meaning of the word

" Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Jaswal,

==>

> If I may pose the question – just How strongly do you feel that this

> configuration of Planets could Only occur in 157 BC?

> Don't you think that they would repeat sometime Earlier as well?

<==

Since the same equinox position could repeat in 26000 years, the

same chart is possible before 26,000 years as well. Actually I have

mentioned this in one of the previous mails - it seems that you

missed it. But this " before 26,000 years " argument becomes irrelevant

 

as per our current understanding of indian history and archeology.

Note: Try to understand the yuga numbers in the back drop of

precession of equinox and as a mathematical hypothesis to

astronomical planetary calculation. As I have mentioned several times

in this forum, there is a document in the files section which may

help you to understand the above statement.

Chandra%

20Hari/Basics_of_the_Ayanamsa_Dispute.doc

Belief is one thing and actual academic study another. Belief is

almost always illogical (and that is why it is termed 'belief'

otherwise it would have been termed 'trust') and academic study

always follows the path of logic.

Regards,

Sreenadh

 

,

" Ram Jaswal "

<rkjaswal wrote:

>

> Namaste Sreenadh ji

>

> If I may pose the question – just How strongly do you feel that this

> configuration of Planets could Only occur in 157 BC?

>

> Don't you think that they would repeat sometime Earlier as well?

>

> I fully understand your desire in trying to use this date to

confirm your

> original hypothesis that the " current " version of Valmiki

Ramayana

was

> written circa 2nd Century BC which to be honest I really can't

comment …..

>

> If current understanding of Indian Yuga's are Satya, Treta, Dvapura

and

> " Kali " yugas are 4, 3, 2, and 1 times an interval of 432,OOO

years

then more

> likely we are talking at least 864,000 Years back – I am assuming

Shri Ram

> was born towards the end of Treta as Shri Krishna was towards end of

> Dvapura?

>

> Maybe some members have Vedic Software programs that can compute

Planetary

> positions dating back to then (?) – perhaps ignoring the Ayanamsa

as who

> knows what value it may have been then?

>

> Regards …….

>

> Jai Sita Ram

>

> Ram

>

> _____

>

>

>

On Behalf Of

Sreenadh

> 14 November 2007 16:02

>

> Re: Contextual meaning of the

word

> " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

>

> Dear Ramdas ji,

> You don't seem to have paid much attention to, or read the debates

> on Rama's chart going on in this group at all! If you had you should

> have well understood that the chart given in Ramayana is - note it

and

> don't miss it again -

> Rama's chart

> ============

> * The Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are using

> JHora put -156 Gregorian calendar for the year)

> The planatry details are as follows -

> * Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> * Moon in Cancer (Own sign)

> * Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)

> * Sun in Pisces

> * Mercury in Pisces (Debilitated)

> * Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)

> * Mars in Capricorn (Exalted)

> * Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)

> * Lagna - Not mentioned.

> Note that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus the

> statement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes true.

> Bharata's Chart

> ===============

> * Planetary position - same as above.

> * Nakshatra - Pushya

> * Lagna - Not given

> Lakshmana and Satrukhna

> =======================

> * Planetary position - same as above.

> * Nakshatra - Aslesha

> * Lagna - Not given

> Note that all the conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana gets

> satisfied. Note that the charts match perfectly well with the

> description given in Valmiki Ramayana.

> Hope this helps.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> astrology ,

HosabettuRamadas Rao

> <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > You have not understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama " s

chart

as

> depicted by Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of

birth

> etc.?

> > With Regards,

> > Ramadas Rao

> >

> >

> > @: sreesog@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007

> 04:50:39 +0000 Re: Contextual

> meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are living and

> what about the planetary movements and their acceleration in Treta

> Yuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with precession

> seconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to solve the rhythm

> of solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its significance.

> The ancient sages were far more intelligent and better that the

> illogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers represent Solar

> years, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and complementary to

> our current understanding of human history, archeology and evolution

> (of solar system, earth, life on earth) all such ideas become

> irrelevant. So one should try to understand ancient concepts in tune

> with out current knowledge and understanding. I hope that clarifies

my

> stand point. Now let us approach your question in another

> perspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga' is not

> applicable to our current astrology then, we should even avoid

> discussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If it is so,

> then why some so called guru of gurus is using such planetary

> positions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet theories? To

> quote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>> Pt.XXXXXX was

> using mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary positions are same .

> And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa and arudhas and

> even the life of sri ramji is > detail with this data .So much

exalted

> planets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his excile to forest

and

> the curses he got ,even > how it was fructified tru a servant maid

the

> hunchback > Mandara,and things like that and Venus exalted was

showing

> the> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted as 5th lord was

showing >

> the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th from arudha lagna was >

showing

> the marital problems he faced .This was the line of > discussions

> generally i think .......<==Hope you will have an answer. ==>>

 

How

> many thousands of years have passed from Treta Yuga to the > present

> Kali Yuga ? Do you think that all the planets have the same >

> movements or acceleration in the present Yuga also ?? Do you have >

> any reference regarding such planetary movements during Krita >

> Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is clear that all

> these questions become irrelevant in then light of clarifications

> given above. :)Love,Sreenadh--- In

> ancient_indian_ <%40>

> astrology ,

HosabettuRamadas Rao

> <ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I have

a small query

> regarding your main question itself.At present which in which Yuga

we

> are living and what about the planetary movements and their

> acceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years have passed

> from Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think that all the

> planets have the same movements or acceleration in the present Yuga

> also ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary movements

> during Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?Because I have no

idea

> of planetary movements in those great Yugas.> Regards,> Ramadas

Rao.>

> > > @: sreesog@: Tue, 13 Nov

2007

13:51:01

> +0000 Re: Contextual meaning of

the

> word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >

> > > Dear Goel

> ji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish etc. Please do not

> loose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I was astonished to

> see these statements!!! Read carefully the statement of me which you

> are talking against! ==>> Do you think that either the poet or the

> interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move 4

> signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and brothers

took

> birth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a simple word without

> anything wrong associated with and I was not addressing anyone in

> particular but was speaking about the subject! Actually I don't

> believe that none of the possible author's of that text cannot be

that

> foolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this simple fact.

> (i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He was a

> great scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other

poet:

> If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book like

> Ramayana, he is never going to commit this mistake.Interpolator: If

> someone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in Sanskrit,

> and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be intelligent enough

> to maintain the constancy. Thus the conclusion - What ever the

period

> of the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am asking you to simple

> possibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our part in understanding it

and

> interpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)==================If Lagna

means

> Sign and Kuleera means then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleera

> abhuditaaravo " - get translated as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were

born

> in Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in Capricorn Sign " - and every

> pieces of the puzzle fall in right places & for sure we start

> appreciating the intelligence and knowledge of the poet. See this

as a

> fact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)

===============================If

> Kuleera means Capricorn then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleera

> abhudite ravo " - get translated as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were

born

> in Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun was in Cancer Sign " . I failed to see,

> how it coherently integrates the pieces of the puzzle, without

making

> us question the intelligence and knowledge of the poet. Please

correct

> me if I am wrong. That was why my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to say

> that Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > after the birth of

> Rama and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poet or the

> interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move 4

> signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and brothers

took

> birth in consecutive days)<==I was simply asking you to clarify your

> view - regarding this issue. And I thought that you have an answer

to

> this question. And that is why I said - " I sincerely believe that

you

> will have a clear solution to suggest for this problem " . I don't

> believe, I have committed any sin or mistake in my earlier mail!

> Actually your previous mail didn't addressed this question - and you

> were hastily making the statement - " Why are you using such words

like

> foolish etc. Please do not loose your cool and temper and that too

> .... " Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji, what is this? I respect

> you and we are doing simple academic discussion - let us sincerely

> look into the possibilities.Love and regards,Sreenadh--- In

> ancient_indian_ <%40>

> astrology ,

Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@>

> wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become exited too soon. Why are

 

you

> using such words like foolish etc. Please do not loose your cool and

> temper and that too for proving > something which you believe is

right

> and others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is incarnation of GOD, AND

IT

> DOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED ON THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYAN

> GIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND TEACHING.THE RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA

IS

> A GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE INSPIRATION IN OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> If

> you also view Lord Shri Rama in the same light, some worthwhile

> discussion is possible among ourselves,otherwise at least I do not

> wish to join such discussions.> In astrology ,Kuleer means only

cancer

> . Ravao is appearing separately in the Sloka. This may have two

> indications:> 1. Sign Cancer was rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was

 

rising

> with Sun in dignity i.e. at Noon time> As namkaran sanskar of all

the

> four brothers had taken place simultaneously after the appearance of

> LORD RAMA ON THE EARTH, THE LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> AND

> LOGICAL.> Kindly advise,> > > > G.K.GOEL> Ph:

09350311433> Add: L-

409,

> SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-110 076> INDIA > > > > -----

Original

Message

> ----> Sreenadh <sreesog@>> To:

> ancient_indian_ <%40>

> astrology >

Tuesday, 13 November,

> 2007 12:59:08 PM> Re:

Contextual

> meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal

ji> >

> Dear Rao ji & Goal ji,> I could see that both of you are of the

> opinian that " Kuleera " > means " Cancer Sign " as

used in Valmiki

> Ramayana. Interesting! Let us > for argument sake accept that it

means

> Cancer sign itself - in > Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify my

> following doubt. The sloka > given in Valmiki Ramayana is " Sarpe

> Jatastu Saumitri Kuleera abhudite > Ravo " - as per your meaning

the

> sloka would get transilated > as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born

 

in

> Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun > was in Cancer " ! Now the questions

-> *

Do

> you mean to say that Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months >

after

> the birth of Rama and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the

poet

> or the interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will

move

> 4 signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and brothers

> took birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely believe

> that you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem. >

> Love,> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

 

com,

> Gopal Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear

Friends,> > Mr. Rao

> is a great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is

to

> guide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> > Sloka

on

> the birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to > two

> possibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.> >

2 Sign

Cancer

> was rising and Sun was placed in most prominent > position ,i.e

NOON>

> > As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was performed >

> simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> > Lakshaman

> and Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra > when Cancer

was

> rising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> > Ph:

09350311433> > Add: L-

409,

> SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA > >

> > > > > > -----

> Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao

<ramadasrao@ ...>>

> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Sent:

Monday,

12

> November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE: [ancient_indian_

astrology]

> Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To Finn ji> > > > Dear

Finn

Ji,> >

> As per my knowledge you are correct.As per Brihajjataka, Yavana >

> Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka Rashi.> > karkaH

> kuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho > vihitaschadhaatuH.

> ......This shloka is from Yavana Jataka.Meaning > karkataka Rashi is

> like the shape of KulIraakruti which is in > water,kalapurusha' s

> chest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative of > Dhatu sign or

> Rashi,also indicative of well,river and watery land.> > I hope this

> helps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > >

> > > > > > > > To:

> ancient_indian_ astrology> > sreesog (AT) (DOT)

> com> > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To

> Finn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us

consider your major

> arguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as

Capricorn is also

far

> fetched, to > > > say the least, since all the astrological texts

> describe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That is

simply your

ignorance

> - many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with in detail -

and

> clarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could mean 'Capricorn'.

> To convince you, I will provide a> > details quotes and references

> from them in the next post. > > ==>> > > If you are

using " Lagna "

for

> signs, then you cannot help placing > > > five planets of Bhagwan

 

Rama

> in Karkata, since this is what> > > the ninth sholka of Canto 18

says,

> " nakshatre aditi daivatye > > > svochsamstheshu panchasu

graheshu

> karkate lagne vakpatav induna > > > saha " > >

<==> > This too is

> simply ignorance. The sloka bit means " (Rama took birth)> > in

> Punarvasu Nakshatra, while 5 planets where in own house or> >

> exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon in Cancer sign " . Two

things>

>

> should be noted here -> > 1) To denote Cancer sign the word Karkata

is

> used (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2) There too the word " Lagna "

means " Sign "

> itself. Note that> > " karkate lagne vakpatav induna saha "

means " In

> Cancer SIGN Jupitor > was> > with Moon " > > ==>>

> > Secondly, we

> cannot overlook the fact that " Adyatma Ramayana " , > which

> > > you

> says was written in Kerala, contains the following shlokas> > <==

>

>

> There is more than one ignorance in your statements. Let see what> >

> they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana is NOT a text written in Kerala.

> It is - " an> > ancient Sanskrit work extolling the spiritual

virtues

> of the story > of> > Ramayana. It comprises around 4200 verses,

is

> embedded in > Brahm & #257;nda> > Purana and is considered to

be

> authored by Ved Vyasa " - wikipedia.> >

(http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/

> Adhyatma_ Ramayana)> > 2) What is popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDED

> TRANSILATION of> > Adyatma Ramayana written by Tunjattu Ramanujan

> Ezhuttacchan who is> > known as the 'father of malayalam language' a

> great scholar. > > 3) We are NOT discussing Adhyatma Ramayana but

> VALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't bring in irrelevant quotes in

between.

> Note that while Valmiki> > Ramayana does not mention Madhu masa etc

> Adhayata Ramayana does it.> > Note that while Valmiki Ramayana tells

> us that the birth took place > in> > the 12th (Nakshatra) Month

from

> the end date of Putra kameshti,> > Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that

it

> happened at the 10th month. So > with> > this much

inconsistencies

> between these two texts - Adhyatma > Ramayana> > quote is NOT

worth

> considering while discussing " Astrology in > Valmiki> >

Ramayana " .

It

> is clear that you are bringing in the Adhyatma > ramayana> >

quote

> only because it mentions your pet " Madhu Masa " in it - but >

that> >

> is irrelevant to the current context. Please try to depend ONLY ON>

>

> references from Valmiki Ramayana alone while discussing the same. >

>

> 4) I am not interested in your habit and inconsistent nature in> >

> studying subject and introducing diversions. So I don't have any >

> time> > to waste after the quote and inconsistencies you presented

> regarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana quote. Again it simply means

that I

> have > wasted> > enough time on the ignorance of " Tropical

> Calendarvalas " . > > Note: So learn to be sincere and be

truthful -

> and if clarity comes> > in from some where learn to welcome it â

€ "

> and if possible drop the> > fanatism and use of bad words. You are

> dragging me to the same> > direction †" `I know only

to deal

with

> bad with bad and good with > good'> > †" so the

end result would

> be the group becoming a mud house and I> > don't want it. So please

> avoid name calling here onwards and me too> > will never resort to

it.

> Let us keep the group clean and sane. > People> > has already

started

> complaining about the insane useless direction > in> > which this

> group is going - both you and me are culprits for the > same.> >

> Please know it as a fact. > > Regards,> > Sreenadh> >

> > --- In

> ancient_indian_ astrology, " Avtar Krishen >

Kaul " > >

> <jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Shri Sreenadh

ji,> > > Namaskar!>

> >

> You are talking of an event of second century BCE. The Surya > >

>

> Sidhanta, which gives the mothodology of calculating " lagna " was

>

> >

> very much in vogue then. When you are using the word Lagna in the >

>

> > context of planetary positions vis-a-vis some horoscope/birth >

> chart, > > > it is unimaginable that instead of the common

> interpretation of > the > > > word Lagna i.e. the sign rising

at a

> particular time, > > > the " astrologer " concerned would

have

resorted

> to some other > meaning > > > of that word! He could very well

have

> used the word " rashi " > instead > > > of Lagna

then.> > > Secondly,

to

> interpet Kuleera as Capricorn is also far fetched, > to > > >

say

the

> least, since all the astrological texts describe it as > > >

Karkata!>

> > > Then you are also ascribing a " misprint " or some

problem > > >

with

> " Sandhi " for the word " abyudyete ravav " and

interpreted it > as > >

>

> the description of Mars in Capricorn! That also is far fetched!> >

> >

> > > If you are using " Lagna " for signs, then you cannot

help

placing >

> > > five planets of Bhagwan Rama in Karkata, since this is what the

>

> > > ninth sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye

> > >

> svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshu karkate lagne vakpatav induna > >

>

> saha " Here you can club the words as " panchasu graheshu karkate

> >

>

> lagne, vakpatav induna saha " and interpret them as " five planets

>

> >

> were in Karkata rashi, which included the Moon and Jupiter " . You >

 

> >

> cannot interpret " lagna " as sign in one place and at the same

>

time >

> > > as lagna i.e. aschendant in another place in one and the same

>

>

> > chapter.> > > > > > The maximum difficulty that

arises out of this

> hypothesis is that > in > > > second century BCE, there was no

> methodology of calculating > planets > > > correctly, whether

it was

> India

or any other country! India,

on > the > > > other hand, was

> saddled with the Surya Sidhanta, which is > > > fundamentally the

 

most

> incorrect work. So it is just a > possibility > > > that the

> astrologer concerned could have calculated the planetary > > >

> positions as per the Surya Sidhanta and then implanted them in >

the >

> > > Valmiki Ramayana! Those calculatons can give very surprising

>

> >

> results!> > > > > > Secondly, we cannot overlok the fact

 

that " Adyatma

> Ramayana " , > which > > > you says was written in Kerala,

contains

the

> following shlokas> > > " madhumasse site pakshe navmyam

karkate

shubhe>

> > > punarvasu sahite uchasthe grahapanchake> > > mesham

pooshani

> samprapte pushpavrishti samakule aviraseej jagan > > > nathah

parmatma

> sanatanah " (1/3/14-15)> > > > > > A running

translation of these

> shlokas is> > > " In the month of Madhu, shukla paksha

--bright

> half--in navmi > tithi > > > and punarvasu nakshara, when five

 

planets

> were exalted, the sun > was > > > in Mesha, the Eternal Lord

of the

> worlds, Parmatma, > incarnated.. .. " > > > > > >

> > > 1. Here the

sun

> has specifically been put in Mesha but at the > same > > >

time it

is

> Madhu masa -- which is an astronomical impossibility!> > >

> > > 2.

> Five planets are exalted but there is no mention that any > planet

> >

> > is in its own rashi..> > > > > > 3. Though there is

no menion of

> Karkata lagna or the Moon in > > > Karkata, but if the Sun is in

Mesha

> and it is Navmi tithi, it > means > > > that even if the sun

is in 1

> degree of Mesha the Moon has to be > at a > > > distance of

more

than

> 96 degrees from the same. Thus the Moon > will > > > be in

Karkata 7

> degrees to Karkata 19 degrees. But then Punarvasu > > > nakshatra

> ranges from Mithuna 20 degrees to Karkata 3-20. Thus it > > > is

again

> an astronomical impossibility.> > > > > > In short,

whichever way

you

> look at it, whether it is the Valmiki > > > Ramayana or the

Adyatma

> Ramayana, the astronomical Rashi position > > > of the planets

cannot

> be justifed at all!> > > With regards,> > > AKK> >

> > > > --- In

> ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " >

> >

> <sreesog@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Finn

ji,> > > > The root

(dhatu)

> for the word 'Lagna' is 'Lag' which means> > > >

join/conjunct/

> mix/combine. 'Lagati' or 'Lagitam' means " the > one > > >

that> > >

>

> joins/conjuncts/ mixes/combines " . There are many words that >

sprung

> > > > from> > > > this root. Look at the following

word -> > > >

> " Lagna MandalaH " - it means the same as " Rasi Chakra "

and means> >

> >

> 'Zodiac'. > > > > Mandala = Chakra = Circle> > > >

Lagna = Rasi =

> Sign> > > > Lagna Mandala means 'Sign Circle' and 'Rasi Chakra'

also >

> > > means 'Sign> > > > Circle' or in other words both

are other

names

> for the > Ecliptic, > > > the> > > > zodiac

circle. The word 'Lagna

> Mandala' you can find in any > > > standard> > > >

Sanskrit

> dictionary. Thus it is evident that the word 'Lagna' > can> >

> >

> means 'Sign'. Now coming to Nirukti, the word 'Lagna' has the> >

> >

> following Nirukti -> > > > 'Lagati GrahaiH iti Lagna' meaning

'the

one

> which> > > > join/conjunct/ mix/combine with Planets is called

 

Lagna';

> > certainly > > > the> > > > word lagna here

refers to 'Sign'

because

> it is when the planets > > > joins> > > > (traverse

through) signs

> that the results originate. Thus every > > > sign> > >

> means

> 'Lagna'. > > > > Another Nirukti for the word Lagna is 'Lagati

 

Phalai

> iti Lagna'> > > > meaning 'the one which join/conjuct/

mix/combine

(or

> in other > words> > > > shows) with the results is called

Lagna';

here

> the word 'Lagna' > can> > > > refer either to 'Sign' or to

'Asc'. >

>

> > > Later the the word 'Lagna' got a better and clear definition

>

> >

> such as> > > > 'Raseenam Udayo Lagna' meaning the 'the rising

sign

is

> called > > > Lagna'.> > > > Note that here also the

word lagna is

> essentially associated > with > > > the> > > >

word 'Sign', but

still

> it is due to importance to the > word 'rising'> > > > that

it got

> translated as 'Asc'. Of course since the at the > > >

horizon,> > >

>

> the sky and the earth joins and so the word 'Lagna' is apt here >

too>

> > > > and that is why the translation of this word as 'Ascendant'

>

>

> > acceptable. > > > > Note that when used interchangeably

with the

> words Arudha (as > > > done> > > > in Prasnamarga) ,

the

word 'Lagna'

> loses all its association > with> > > > 'rising sign' even

today,

and

> resort to the old meaning 'Sign'!> > > > Further there are

many

Lagnas

> such as 'Ghati Lagna', 'Hora > Lagna',> > > > 'Bhava

Lagna', 'Sree

> Lagna', 'Arudha Lagna' etc some of which > are > > > NOT>

> > > AT

ALL

> related to 'rising' or 'horizon' in any way. Therefore > in > >

>

> such> > > > contexts to translating the word 'Lagna' as 'Asc'

becomes

> > > > erroneous.. > > > > Considering all these

points it becomes

> clear that accepting the> > > > meaning 'Sign' for the word

'Lagna'

in

> 'Valmiki Ramayana' > context > > > is a> > > >

truly acceptable

> argument, well supported by Nirukti and > > > Dictionaries.>

> > >

> Hope this helps. > > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh>

> > > > > > > --- In

> ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > >

> >

> <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > >

Dear Finn ji,> > > > > The

nirukti

> and dictionary quotes which gives the > > > meaning 'Sign' to>

> >

> >

> the word 'Lagna' I will provide - please wait for the next > post.

> >

> > Now> > > > > coming to your next argument -> >

> > > ==>> > > > >

>

> However, even if we agree for the sake of argument that > lagna >

>

>

> means > > > > > > sign, how do you say that the sun was

in Mina

since

> it has > > > very > > > > > > clearly been

stated " kuleere abyudite

> ravav " i.e. when the > sun > > > was > > > >

> > in Kuleera i.e.

> Karkata Rashi! Thus even if we take the sun > of > > > >

> > Bhagwan

> Rama in Mina instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana > > > and

> > >

>

> > > Shatrugana could not be in Karkata in any case.> > >

> > <==> >

>

> > > It is already answered in a previous mail to Kaul ji. But I >

>

>

> will> > > > > re-state it here. > > > > >

" kuleere abyudite ravav "

It

> could be a simple sandhi mistake > > > of a> > > >

> missing 'aa'.

And

> the correct reading could be " kuleere> > > > >

abyuditaraavav " ,

> meaning " Mars (aara) was in Capricorn > > >

(Kuleera) " .> > > > >

Note

> that the meaning of the word Kuleera is given in Sanskrit> > >

> >

> Nikhandus as " Kuleero Nakra Karkatau " meaning " The word

> Kuleera >

>

> > is> > > > > used for Capricon and Cancer " . The

auther of

Hridyapadha

> > vyakhya > > > of> > > > > Brihajjataka

clearly quotes many

> references from various > > > Nikhandus and> > > >

> argues that the

> meaning Capricorn for the word Kuleera is > also > > >

very> > > > >

> popular. Note that this solves all the confusion and shows > that >

>

> > apart> > > > > from the position of Ju & Mo in

Cancer the text

> provides the > > > position> > > > > of Many other

planets as well.

> For example it is clear from > the> > > > > description

given along

> with Bharata's Nakshatra that Sun and > > > Mercury> > >

> > are in

> Pisces, and from the one given along while giving the > > >

Nakshatra>

> > > > > of Lakshmana and Satrukhna that Mars is in Capricorn!

So it

>

> > > becomes> > > > > clear that all those brothers

are born in

> consecutive days, > and > > > also> > > > >

that the poet didn't

gave

> the Asc of any of them - but only > the> > > > >

planetary

position. >

> > > > > Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > >

> > > > > > > --- In

> ancient_indian_ astrology, " Avtar > Krishen >

> >

> Kaul " > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > >

> > >> > > > > > --- In

> ancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com, " Sreenadh "

> > > > >

>

> <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > >

> > Shri Sreenadh ji,> > > > >

>

> Namaskar!> > > > > > From your curent post, it appears

that both of

us

> agree > that > > > the > > > > > >

astrological references in the

> Valmiki Ramayana are > > > concoctions > > > > >

> since the

planetary

> positions appear to have been for a > period > > > of >

> > > > >

> second century BCE.> > > > > > However, you have also

said> > > > >

>

> > > > > > > <4) While describing the Nakshatra of

Bharata the

> statement > > > given is> > > > > >

" Pushye jatastu bharato Meena

> Lagne Prasanna Dhee " should be> > > > > >

translated to " Bharata was

> born in Pushya Nakshatra, and at > > > that > > > >

> > time Sun &

> Mercury was in the Sign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > > > means

> > > >

>

> > Sign - as per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit > dictionaries

> >

> > and > > > > > > Nirukti of the word Lagna too

clearly support this

> meaning > of > > > the > > > > > > word

Lagna) ->> > > > > > > > >

> >

> > I do not agree with you here since no astrologer, howevr > >

>

> useless or > > > > > > ignorant he/she may be or might

have been

would

> be unaware > of > > > the > > > > > > fact

that lagna means a sign

> ascending at the time of > > > birth/event. > > > >

> > There is a

> proecedure for calculating the same in the Surya > > > Sidhanta

> >

>

> > > > also, even if that is the most inaccuate astronomical work.

>

>

> > The > > > > > > complete sholka is " Pushye

jatastu Bharato, Mina

> lagne > > > > > > prasannadheeh, sarpe jatatavtu

saumitri, kuleere

> abyudite > > > ravav " --> > > > > >

1/18/15> > > > > > > > > > > >

Thus

> according to me Mina Lagna means Mila langa! However, > > > even

>

> >

> > > > if we agree for the sake of argument that lagna means sign,

>

>

> > how do > > > > > > you say that the sun was in Mina

since it has

> very clearly > > > been > > > > > > stated

" kuleere abyudite ravav "

> i.e. when the sun was in > > > Kuleera > > > > >

> i.e. Karkata

Rashi!

> Thus even if we take the sun of Bhagwan > > > Rama in > >

> > > >

Mina

> instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana and Shatrugana > > > could

 

not

> > > > > > > be in Karkata in any case. > > >

> > > The names of

> nakshatras are very clear i.e. Shri RAm was > born > > > in

> > > >

>

> > Aditi-Daivata i.e. Punarvasu (ii) Bharata in Pushya and >

(iii->

> >

> iv)> > > > > > Lakshmana and Shatrugana in

" Sarpi " i.e. Ashlesha.

They

> are > > > in a > > > > > > sequence, but if the

sun of Lakshamana

and

> Shatrugana is in > > > Karkata, > > > > > > who

are younger by just

> two days, the sun of Shri Ram and > > > Bharata > > >

> > > cannot

be

> either in Mina or Mesha!> > > > > > > > > >

> > Thus whichever way

we

> look at it, there certainly has been > a > > > > > >

manipulation of

> planetary positions in the Valmiki Ramayana.> > > > > >

With

regards,>

> > > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul> > > > > >

>> > > > > > > Dear Kaul

ji,>

> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > >

> ii) The planetary position of Bhagwan

> Ram as given in > the > > > > > > Valmiki > >

> > > > > > Ramaya was

> " implanted " in that work by some " jyotishi " > of

> > > either > > >

>

> > > > > that period or a later one!> > > > >

> > <==> > > > > > >

> Exactly! Not only the horoscope but the whole Ramayana is > > >

re-

> >

> > > > > written> > > > > > > by

'Brhamanic priests' supported by

Sunga

> dynasty - is > the > > > correct> > > > > >

> argument. (And not by

> Jyotishis). Thus the currently > > > available> > > >

> >

> 'Brahmanic

> Ramayana' (Why insult sage Valmiki) is clearly > > > the work

> > >

>

> > > of> > > > > > > some 'brahmanic poet' who

lived after BC 157,

who

> took a > > > planetary> > > > > > > position

known to him and

ascribed

> it to Rama!! > > > > > > > ==>> > > >

> > > > Since 157 BC is an era

> of recorded history without any > > > > > > obscurity,

we > > > > >

>

> > > do not have any such records that a divine incarnation > >

>

came

> into > > > > > > > > existence then, especially

since it is after

the

> Budha-> > > Avtar and > > > > > > > >

after the advent of Maya the

> mlechha into India!>

> > > > > > <== > > > > > > > You are

 

absolutely

> right! And that is why it is said > that -> > > it is> >

> > > > >

> just the imagination of the poet who wrote this poem in > the > >

>

> recent> > > > > > > past. He just took some

samples from the

recent

> > history > > > known to> > > > > > > him

and manipulated the to

> create a long poem - that > > > fulfills his> > > >

> > > purpose. I

> don't have any disregard for the 'Brahmnic > poet' > > > who

> > >

> >

> > knew> > > > > > > what he was doing - but I feel

pity for the

people

> who > > > mistook to> > > > > > > represent

actual history, and

> believe that Monkey men > with a > > > tail> > > >

> > > lived in

> recent past and also that Sanskrit as used in > > > Ramayana>

> > >

>

> > > existed in the period of those monkey people. )> > >

> > > >

> ==>> > > > > > > > Even here, you are using

" J Hora " for 157 BC when

> all > we > > > had at > > > > > > that >

> > > > > > > point of time

> i.e. 157 BC by way of astronomical bibles > > > was the > >

> > > >

>

> > Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha >

> >

>

> > > Sidhantika!> > > > > > > <== > >

> > > > > Kaul ji, that is not

> that important - since the poet who > > > wrote> > >

> > > > Ramyana

> is not that accurate in describing the charts - > not > > >

that >

> >

> > > > he is> > > > > > > not giving any

longitudes but only

describes

> a planetary > > > position > > > > > > of>

> > > > > > BC 157. He

> gives the position of ALL THE PLANETS and > > > mentions >

> > > > >

> that> > > > > > > it was Punarvasu Nakshatra and that

the Tithi was

> Navami. > No > > > great> > > > > > >

astronomical knowledge is

> necessory to mention this much, > and> > > > > > >

therefore any

> software will do. Further JHora most of > the > > > >

> > people

> in> > > > > > > this group is having and they can

verify the

planetary

> > > > position > > > > > > using> > >

> > > > that. > > > > > > >

> If you are bewildered by the statement that " ALL THE > > >

PLANETS

> ARE> > > > > > > MENTIONED " , then here goes the

clarification:> > >

>

> > > > 1) Thiti Navami, Nakshatra Punar vasu - clearly stated>

> > >

>

> > > 2) Ju, Ma in Cancer - clearly stated.> > > > >

> > 3) 5 planets

in

> own house or exaltation - statement not > > > clear.> >

> > > > >

Then

> comes the interesting part -> > > > > > > 4) While

describing the

> Nakshatra of Bharata the > statement > > > given > >

> > > > is> >

> >

> > > > " Pushye jatastu bharato Meena Lagne Prasanna

Dhee " should >

be>

> > > > > > > translated to " Bharata was born in

Pushya Nakshatra,

and >

> at > > > that > > > > > > time> > >

> > > > Sun & Mercury was in the

> Sign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > means > > > Sign - >

> > > > > as> >

>

> > > > > per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit dictionaries

and >

> >

> Nirukti of> > > > > > > the word Lagna too clearly

support this

> meaning of the > word > > > > > > Lagna) -> >

> > > > > Thus the

> position of Sun and Mercury are clearly stated!> > > > >

> > 5)

While

> describing the Nakshatra of Lakshmana and > > > Satrukhna it

is> >

> >

> > > > said that the Nakshatra is Aslesha and also that

" Kuleere> >

> >

> > > > Abhuditeaaravo " means " Arra (Mars) was in

Capricon > > >

> (Kuleera) " !! > > > > > > Which> > > >

> > > is exact! Thus it

becomes

> clear that our confusion > > > about 'Sun in> > > >

> > > Cancer'

was

> just because of a Sandhi problem!! - Thus the > > > position >

> >

> >

> > of> > > > > > > Mars is clearly stated! >

> > > > > > 6) Thus what

> remains is the position of Sa and Ve - which > > > as per >

> > > >

>

> the> > > > > > > given Tropical chart of 14 March 157

BC becomes >

> clarified. > > > Sa is in> > > > > > >

Aquarius and Ve is in

Taurus! >

> > > > > > > Thus the poet knew well what he is speaking

about - the

>

> > > confusion> > > > > > > till date regarding

this planetary

position

> being caused > by > > > our> > > > > > >

ignorance and lack of

effort

> to understand the facts! > > > > > > > Love,>

> > > > > >

Sreenadh>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In

ancient_indian_ astrology@

> . > com, " Avtar > > > Krishen > > >

> > > Kaul " > > > > >

>

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > Shri Sreenadh

ji,>

> > > > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > >

> > <Calculate the planetary

> position for 14 March -156 > > > (Gregorian> > > >

> > > >

Calendar);

> 9.15 PM approx in JHora; and you will see > what > > > I >

> > > > >

> mean. The> > > > > > > > Horoscope matches well

with the description

> in > Ramayana.>> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > My dear Sreenadhji,

you

> are making really a fool of > > > yourself by > > > >

> > such > >

> >

> > > > > comments!> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > All you are trying

to

> prove is that the planetary > position > > > of > > >

> > > > >

> Bhagwan Rama, as given in the Valmiki Ramayana, is the > > >

planetary

> > > > > > > > > position of March 14, 157 BC.

Obviously, this leads

to

> > > > two > > > > > > > > conclusions:

> > > > > > > > 1) Either

> Bhagwan Ram was born on that date i.e. March > 14, > > > 157

> > >

> >

> > BC at > > > > > > > > 9-15 PM> > >

> > > > > or> > > > > > > > ii)

> The planetary position of Bhagwan Ram as given in > the > > >

> > >

> Valmiki > > > > > > > > Ramaya was

" implanted " in that work by some

> " jyotishi " > of > > > either > > > >

> > > > that period or a later

> one!> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > Since 157 BC is an era of

recroded

> history without any > > > > > > obscurity, we > >

> > > > > > do not

> have any such records that a divine incarnation > > > came into

> >

>

> > > > > > existence then, especially since it is after the

Budha->

> >

> Avtar and > > > > > > > > after the advent of Maya

the mlechha into

> India!>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus

all you are proving with

> your astrological > knowledge > > > and > > > >

> > latest > > > >

> >

> > > astronomical softwares is that some uselss and foolish > >

>

> jyotishi > > > > > > has > > > > > >

> > implanted the planetary

> position of March 14, 157 BC > into > > > the > > >

> > > > >

Valmiki

> Ramayana just to make even that divine > incarnation > > >

> > > > >

> subservient to planetary suzarinity!> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> Even here, you are using " J Hora " for 157 BC when all > we

> > > had

> at > > > > > > that > > > > > > >

> point of time i.e. 157 BC by way

> of astronomical bibles > > > was the > > > > >

> > > Surya Sidhanta

of

> Maya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha > > > > > >

Sidhantika!>

> >

> > > > > > And as is an open secret, that is the most

useless > > >

> astronomical > > > > > > work > > > > >

> > > by someone who did not

> know even ABC of astronomy, so > much > > > so > > >

> > > that > >

>

> > > > > > he did not have any knowledge of precession

either!> > >

> >

> > > > QED/QEF> > > > > > > > With

regards, > > > > > > > > AKK> > >

>

> > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@

. com,

> " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > > <sreesog@>

wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Finn

ji,> > > > > > > > > Calculate the

> planetary position for 14 March -156 > > > (Gregorian> >

> > > > >

> >

> Calendar); 9.15 PM approx in JHora; and you will see > > > what I

>

>

> > > > > mean. > > > > > > > > The>

> > > > > > > > Horoscope matches

> well with the description in > > > Ramayana. > > > >

> > > > > Let

us

> look at the core argument of Kaul ji -> > > > > > >

> > ==>> > > >

> >

> > > > > iii) The sun could never be in Mesha -- whether the

> so >

> >

> > > > called > > > > > > > > sayana>

> > > > > > > > > or the so

> called nirayana --- if it was Madhu Masa > > > i.e. the > >

> > > >

>

> > first > > > > > > > > > > month of the

Vasanta Ritu at the time of

> birth of > > > Bhagwan > > > > > > Rama.>

> > > > > > > > <== > > >

>

> > > > > > I am yet to see any reference in so called

Valmiki > > >

> Ramayana > > > > > > which> > > > > >

> > > states that 'Rama's

birth

> took place in Madhu Masa'; > I > > > hope > > > >

> > Kaul ji> > >

> >

> > > > > will come up with relevant quote from the same >

text. ;=)

> >

> > > > > Actually > > > > > > > >

if> > > > > > > > > we read through

> Ramayana we could easily see that the > > > birth > > >

> > > took

> >

> > > > > > > place> > > > > > > >

> BEFORE the advent of Vasanta

Ritu.

> > > > > > > > > > Also note that the meaning

'Sign(Rasi)' for the >

>

> > word 'Lagna' > > > > > > is a> > > >

> > > > > very popular one,

and

> the original one. The Nirukta > > > defenition > > >

> > > of > > >

>

> > > > > the> > > > > > > > > word

'Lagna' itself means 'Sign (Rasi)'

> and not Asc, > > > even > > > > > > though >

> > > > > > > the> > >

>

> > > > > > second meaning became popular later. > >

> > > > > > > And

> so the conclusion - who ever made up this text -> > > was >

> > > >

>

> > > describing> > > > > > > > > a recent

planetary position which

was

> well known to > him -> > > > > > > > >

possibly > > > > > > > > a>

> >

> > > > > > > planetary position of some king in his own

period, >

and >

> > > that is > > > > > > why> > > >

> > > > > Ramayana is a mere

> literary text, and NOT a divine > one. > > > > > >

> > > ==>> > > >

>

> > > > > > If some parts of it seems to be confusing,>

> > > > > > >

>

> > anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated, then it > > >

may > >

>

> > > > better to> > > > > > > > > >

simply wait and make further

> investigations into > the > > > subject.> > > >

> > > > > <==> > >

> >

> > > > > I agree - but is it not that these discussions itself

> > >

is

> > > > > > > part of > > > > > > >

> the> > > > > > > > >

> investigations into the subject? > > > > > > >

> > ==>> > > > >

> >

> > > > You have come up with some relevant questions > >

> regarding

>

> > > > > > > > Ramayana's> > > > > >

> > > > description of the

> horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If

> > > > > > possible > > > > >

>

> > > it > > > > > > > > > > may be a

good idea to compare these

> horoscope-> > > descriptions > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > >

> similar descriptions from other texts.. > > > > > > >

> > <==> > >

> >

> > > > > Yes, I agree - and our field is wast -> > >

> > > > > >

> Nirayana Astrology - Rishi Horas & Tantric texts> > > >

> > > > >

> Sayana/Tropical Astrolology - Vedic literature, > Epics, > > >

> > >

> Puranas > > > > > > > > etc > > > >

> > > > > There is lot of

> unprocessed, non-scrutinized data > > > around, and > >

> > > > we

> >

> > > > > > > can> > > > > > > >

> do much; though our studies -

whether

> the conclusions > > > agree > > > > > >

with> > > > > > > > >

popular

> notions and beliefs or not. > > > > > > > > >

==>> > > > > > > >

> >

> The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the > > >

birth

>

> > > > > > and > > > > > > > >

the> > > > > > > > > > horoscopes of

> both Rama and Krishna. I have seen >

this > > > > > > description>

> >

> > > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the description

from >

Ramayana

> > > > with > > > > > > the > > > >

> > > > one> > > > > > > > > >

> given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or are > there > > >

> > >

>

> > differences?> > > > > > > > > >

This may actually provide us with

> some new and > > > relevant > > > > > > >

> information.> > > > > >

>

> > > <==> > > > > > > > > I agree -

quote and proceed. But remember

one

> thing - > > > our > > > > > > major> >

> > > > > > > concern in

these

> discussions is 'Astrology in Valmiki > > > > > >

Ramayana' > > > >

> >

> > > (and> > > > > > > > > not merely the

horoscope of Rama), and let

> us not > forget > > > the > > > > > > main

> > > > > > > > area> >

> >

> > > > > > of study, while dealing with diversions. At the

end > of

> >

> > our > > > > > > study, > > > > >

> > > for> > > > > > > > > sure

> some useful and systematic material should come > > > up. We

> >

>

> > > > > > will > > > > > > > > >

preserve and present it - as a

> background for further > > > > > > > >

investigations> > > > > > >

> >

> into other areas. :=)> > > > > > > > >

Love,> > > > > > > > >

Sreenadh

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > ancient_indian_

astrology@

> . > com, " Finn > > > Wandahl " > >

> > > > > > >

> <finn.wandahl@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > > > Dear

Mr.

> Sreenadh & Mr. Kaul,> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps

> one should not draw too hasty conclusions > > > regarding >

> > > >

>

> the > > > > > > > > origin> > > > >

> > > > > of the Ramayana. If

some

> parts of it seems to be > > > confusing,> > > > >

> > > > >

> anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > may

> > >

>

> > > better to> > > > > > > > > >

simply wait and make further

> investigations into > the > > > subject.> > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > You have come up with some relevant questions

> > >

> regarding > > > > > > > > Ramayana's> > >

> > > > > > > description

of

> the horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. >

If > > > > > > possible > > >

>

> > > > > it may> > > > > > > > >

> be a good idea to compare these

> horoscope-descripti > ons > > > to > > > > >

> similar> > > > > > >

>

> > > descriptions from other texts. > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the >

> >

> birth > > > > > > and > > > > > > >

> the> > > > > > > > > >

> horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna. I

have seen > this > > > > > >

> description> > > > > > > > > > myself. Why

not compare the

description

> from > Ramayana > > > with > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > one> > >

>

> > > > > > > given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or

are > there

>

> > > > > > > > differences?> > > >

> > > > > > This may actually

> provide us with some new and > > > relevant > > > >

> > > >

> information.> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > :-)> > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Finn> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

ancient_indian_ astrology@

.

> com, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > > > >

<sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > >

>

> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul

ji,> > > > > > > > > > > ==>> >

> >

> > > > > > > > > The best option, therefore, is

that we must > admit

>

> > > that > > > > > > these> > > > >

> > > > > > > astrological

> combinations in the Ramayanas are > > > later day> > >

> > > > > >

> >

> > interpolations > > > > > > > > > > >

<==> > > > > > > > > > > Then

> why don't with a better spirit accept that > > > the > >

> > > >

whole

> > > > > > > > > ramayana> > > > >

> > > > > > itself is a made up

text

> created between 2nd BC > and > > > 2 > > > > >

> AD? > > > > > >

>

> > With the> > > > > > > > > > >

numerous dereference to Buddha &

Jain

> religions, > > > > > > Ardhasastra > > > >

> > > > (of> > > > > > >

>

> > > > Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I > believe

> > >

> that > > > > > > it > > > > > > >

> is clear> > > > > > > > > > >

that

> it is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD > > > for > >

> > > >

> sure - > > > > > > > > or better> > >

> > > > > > > > in 2AD in

Sunga

> period itself. > > > > > > > > > > >

There is no wonder that the

> astrological > reference > > > in > > > > >

> > > Ramayana is> > >

> >

> > > > > > > utterly wrong and seems to be made up and in

the > > >

> line of > > > > > > all > > > > > >

> > the> > > > > > > > > > >

> Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly > > > superstitions. >

> > >

>

> > Actually > > > > > > > > that> > >

> > > > > > > > only can be

> expected from such a text that is NOT > AT > > > ALL > >

> > > > > >

> written by> > > > > > > > > > > sage

Valmiki, but possibly by some

> stupid > brahmins > > > of > > > > > > sunga

> > > > > > > >

period.>

> > > > > > > > > > > What else do you think

can be expected from

such >

> a > > > text?!!> > > > > > > > > >

> So I will request you to better

> accept the fact > > > that - > > > > > > The

> > > > > > > > whole>

>

> > > > > > > > > > Ramayana itself is a made up

text - a text >

created

> > > > with a > > > > > > > > purpose

-> > > > > > > > > > > created

> between 2nd century BC and 2nd century > AD. > > > Even

the> > > >

> >

> > > > > > astronomical references in it is going in the

> same > >

> >

> > > direction. > > > > > > > > If there>

> > > > > > > > > > WAS a

> Valmiki Ramayana prior to the currently > > > available > >

> > > >

> one (as> > > > > > > > > > > referenced

in Mahabharata) , then that

> text is > buried > > > in > > > > > > dept

> > > > > > > > by the>

> >

> > > > > > > > > political and religious fanatics

who had a >

purpose >

> > > and > > > > > > wanted > > > >

> > > > to> > > > > > > > > > >

> project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by > > > calling >

> >

> >

> > Buddha > > > > > > > > a thief> > >

> > > > > > > > and mass

> murdering Buddists. It was the hall make > of > > > that >

> > > > >

> era > > > > > > > > (BC 200> > > >

> > > > > > > to AD 200), and

> evident from many other literary > > > works as > > >

> > > > >

well.

> > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of going

against astrologers - how

>

> > > about > > > > > > going > > > >

> > > > against> > > > > > > >

> >

> > and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures > who > >

> in a

>

> > > > > > > > futile> > > > > >

> > > > > effort to spread Animal

> killing, and brahmin > > > projecting, > > > > >

> Yaga> > > > > >

> >

> > > > services, - rewrote all the good old ancient > scripts

> > >

and

> > > > > > > even > > > > > > > >

tried to> > > > > > > > > > > steel

> and accommodate even the non-vedic > > > astrological > >

> > > >

> signs > > > > > > > > also into> > > >

> > > > > > > scripts that

> propagated such vedic rituals? Isn't > it > > > that > >

> > > > > >

> Ramayana is> > > > > > > > > > > also a

clear proof of the same? >

> >

> > > > > > > > > I believe - this would be more

logically > > >

> acceptable > > > > > > path, > > > > >

> > > with> > > > > > > > >

> >

> enough evidence in support. > > > > > > > > >

> > Endnote:

Ramayana

> is a made-up text. Not at all > > > > > > authentic.

> > > > > > > >

> Giving it> > > > > > > > > > > importance

more than a simple

literary

> work is > > > ignorance. > > > > > > Rama >

> > > > > > > is god> >

>

> > > > > > > > > or not is irrelevant in an

academic discussion of >

a

> > > > made > > > > > > up > > > >

> > > > text like> > > > > > > >

> >

> > Ramayana. Ramayana is a text which is NOT written > by > >

> > > >

> Valmiki > > > > > > > > for sure> > >

> > > > > > > > - he cannot be

> such a corrupted, full of > partiality > > > and > >

> > > >

hatred> >

> > > > > > > > > > influenced, ignorant

individual. Sage Valmiki was

>

> a > > > great> > > > > > > > > >

> knowledgeable sage as evident

from

> Yoga Vasishta, > > > and > > > > > > > >

ascribing the> > > > > > >

>

> > > > authorship of a text like currently available > >

> Ramayana

on

> > > > > > > him > > > > > > > >

is a> > > > > > > > > > > SIN, and

an

> insult of that great sage. > > > > > > > > >

> > I wil better adopt

> this line of thinking. > > > > > > > > > >

> Love,> > > > > > > > >

>

> > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> ancient_indian_ astrology, " Avtar > > >

> > > > >

> Krishen Kaul " > > > > > > > > > > >

<jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >

> Shri Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > > >

<I request you to look in to the

> following > > > argument and > > > > > > >

> > > > > possibilities -

>>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On the other hand I

> reqeuswt all of you to > ponder > > > on the > > >

> > > > >

following

> > > > > > > > > > > > > facts, even if

they are unpleasant:> > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > 1. The Valmiki Ramayana is

> supposed to be Aadi > > > Mahakavya > > > > > >

> > i.e. the > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > very first Mahakavya (Epic) of Indian

history > and >

>

> > > > > Maharshi > > > > > > > >

Valamiki > > > > > > > > > > > > is

> known as Aadi Kavi.> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

2.

> The Mahabharata is a much later work.> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to have

incarnated > much >

> >

> > > > earlier > > > > > > > > than >

> > > > > > > > > > > Bhagwan

> Krishna.> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > 4. Shri

> Krishna is supposed to have incarnaed

> > > much > > > > > >

earlier >

> > > > > > > > than> > > > > > >

> > the > > > > > > > > > > > >

> Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > A few million dollar questions

are:> > > > > >

> >

> > > > > a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or > Mangal

> > >

> Shani > > > > > > etc.> > > > > > >

> > planets > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > in the VJ> > > > > > > > > > > >

b) We do not find any Mesha etc.

> Rashis in the > > > > > > Mahabharata> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis

or any > > >

> Mangal > > > > > > Shani > > > > > >

> > etc. > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas > prior > > > to

the > >

>

> > > > > > Surya > > > > > > > >

> > > > Sidhanta of the Pancha

> Sidhantika!> > > > > > > > > > > > The

questions arising out of

these

> facts are:> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > i )How

come

> we find the horoscopic details of > > > Bhagwan > > >

> > > Rama,>

> >

> > > > > > > Bharata, > > > > > > >

> > > > > Shatruna and even

> Lakshamana in the Valmiki > > > Ramayana?> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > ii) How come in spite of the

best efforts of >

all >

> > > the > > > > > > > > astronomers >

> > > > > > > > > > > nobody

has

> been able to reconcile the > > > irreconcilable > > >

> > > facts >

>

> > > > > > > that if > > > > > > >

> > > > > Bhagwan Rama was born in

> Sun in Mesha and Moon > in > > > > > > Karakta in

> > > > > > > > >

>

> > > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been > > >

Navmki > >

> >

> > > tithi > > > > > > > > or vice-> >

> > > > > > > > > > versa?> >

>

> > > > > > > > > > iii) The sun could never be

in Mesha -- whether >

>

> > the so > > > > > > called> > > > >

> > > > sayana > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu > Masa

> > >

i.e.

> > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >

first > > > > > > > > > > > > month

of

> the Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth > of > > > > >

> Bhagwan > >

> >

> > > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > iv)The

> sun of the younger brothers could never > > > have been > >

> > > >

in

> > > > > > > > > Karkata > > > > >

> > > > > > > if the sun of

Bhagwan

> Rama was in Mesha or even > > > Mina!> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > In a nutshell, the more we try to

reconcile > these >

>

> > > > > > > irreconcilable > > > > > >

> > > > > > facts, the more

we

> will be making a laughing > stock > > > of > > > >

> > > >

ourselves!>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The best option,

> therefore, is that we must > admit > > > that > > >

> > > these > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > astrological combinations in

the Ramayanas are >

> >

> later day > > > > > > > > > > > >

interpolations by some good for

> nothing > > > overzealous > > > > > > > >

astrologers who > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > did not know even this much of astronomy

that > if > > >

> the sun > > > > > > of > > > > > >

> > Bhagwan > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could > never > > >

have > >

>

> > > > been > > > > > > > > in > >

> > > > > > > > > > Karkata just

> after two days in the case of His > > > siblings!> > >

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I MUST

PUT ON RECORD THAT JUST FOR THIS

FACT

> > THAT > > > WE DO > > > > > > NOT > >

> > > > > > HAVE A > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR HIM

HAS > > > >

>

> > INCREASED > > > > > > > > SINCE IT > >

> > > > > > > > > > MEANS

> THAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA > > > KARTUM > >

> > > >

> >

> SAMARTH AND > > > > > > > > > > > >

NOT SUBJECT TO PLANETARY

> SUZARINITY!> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > And the

> tail-piece of all this haranguing is > that > > > it > >

> > > >

means

> > > > > > > > > clearly > > > > >

> > > > > > > that Rishis like

> Valmiki nad the Veda Vayasa > etc. > > > did not> > >

> > > > > >

> believe in > > > > > > > > > > > > any

pedictive gimmicks either.>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > With regards,> > >

> > > > > > > > > Avtar Krishen

> Kaul> > > >> > >> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Invite your mail

contacts

> to join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces. It's easy! Try

> it! > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as

many mails as you

wish.

> To know > how, go to > http://help.

/ l/in//

> mail/mail/ tools/tools- 08.html> >> > > > > >

5, 50, 500,

5000 -

> Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to

> http://help.

> <http://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-

08.html>

> /l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-08.html>

>

> > > > > > >

> ________>

Discover

> the new Windows Vista>

> http://search.

> <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-

US & form=QBRE>

> msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE>

 

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows

> Live Spaces. It's easy!

> >

> http://spaces.

> <http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?

wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx

> & mkt=en-us>

> live.com/spacesapi.aspx?

wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx & mkt=en-us

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Jaswal ji,

==>

> rather than ......... thinking that the

> Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

> more sense in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

<==

NO - because there was no such convention or tradition in ancient

india, as we could clearly see understand from ancient astrological

classics. Nakshatra means " Nakshatra in which Moon is placed " ; If the

poet had followed some unconventional path, definitely he must have

mentioned it. He never does it, means he was referring to the normal

Nakshatra system.

==>

> if the Naming ceremony was conducted 11 days After

<==

That is normal - for Kshetriyas the naming ceremony should be done

in the 12th day (what kind of day - you clarify) as per Smritis. The

same may have been followed there as well.

So neither your suggestion is applicable nor it solves anything.

Regards,

Sreenadh

 

, " Ram Jaswal "

<rkjaswal wrote:

>

> Namaste Sreenadh ji + list members

>

> May I suggest that rather than get " bogged " down with thinking that

the

> Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

more sense

> in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

>

> After all from Valmiki Ramayana if the Naming ceremony was

conducted 11 days

> After Shri Ram's Birth then doesn't it make more sense that Shri

Ram's Birth

> Nak was Punarvasu whilst Bharat's was Pushyami and Lakshmana and

Satrukhna

> was Ashlesha? This wouldn't then contradict Any Tithi's mentioned

per

> Planetary placements.

>

> Trusting this explanation helps in clearing up any confusion in your

> understanding of the text (?) …….

>

> Best wishes and regards …….

>

> Jai Sita Ram

>

> Ram

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of

Sreenadh

> 15 November 2007 09:30

>

> Re: Contextual meaning of the

word

> " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

>

> Dear Ramdas ji,

> There was no need for such a long but providing 'nothing new' mail.

> Look at this statement:

> ==>

> The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi

Valmiki

> in theRamayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the

> king ofAyodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has

> made sequentialastronomical references on important dates related

to

> the life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

> zodiac constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to

> add that similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated

in

> thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary

> configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

given

> in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

> calendar can be known.

> Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

> Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

> Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as

> Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

> <==

> Note the following points -

> * From the primary reference, i.e. Valmiki Ramaya itself, we now

> know well about the sloka, planetary configuration and

possibilities.

> * It would well known to even kids in astrology that with Navami

> tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra - Sun CANNOT be in Mesha (Aries) - I

> hope you are above that status. In this scenario what is the use of

> mentioning some great 'Palatarium' software and uselessly trying to

> be authentic with an erroneous data?!! (which the auther of that

> article is doing)

> Note the bogus and erroneous argument in the following lines as

> well.

> ==>

> > The results indicated that this wasexactly the location of

> > planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram

was

> > born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years back).

> <==

> Note the following points -

> * If we consider the possible position of Vernal Equinox as per the

> indications given in Valmiki Ramayana - the same planetary position

> CANNOT repeat for at least 26000 years! So the usual argument such

> as 'the same planetary position may repeat after 1000 years or so'

> become useless in the case of Rama's horoscope. In Rama's

horoscope,

> the Sun is near equinox, and so if we look for a repeating similar

> planetary position it should be at least before 26000 years!

> * BC 10,5114 is NOT Treta Yuga but Dwapara Yuga - even as per the

> calculation of Yugas! ) Did you missed this point as well?

> It is very very clear that the document you supplied is a fool's

> document, who knew nothing about history or astronomy - as evident

> from the following words -

> ==>

> Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born

> 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas

Ram

> was born 7,000years back.

> <==

> And you still consider it as an authentic document! I thought you

> will have better and credible arguments! It would be a waste of my

> time to analyze this useless document in more detail. So i am

> stopping here itself. Any way, I expected something better from

you.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> astrology , HosabettuRamadas Rao

> <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > But I have another source which says the birth of Shri Rama has

> occured in a different birth and time.I am reproducing that

> information source for your information.

> > *Was Lord Ram Really Born?* We Indians are the products of one

> of the oldest civilisations. We need tobe really proud of our

ancient

> history and cultural heritage. However,during the British Rule, we

> developed an inferiority complex, whichadversely affected our quest

> to unearth facts relating to our glorious past.But our young and

> educated men and women, born and brought up in independentIndia,

are

> capable of unearthing the true facts and are confident enough

> toevaluate these objectively. Shri Ram being most basic to

> Indian " ethos " , it is necessary to know who isShri Ram? Was he

really

> born? If yes, when and where? As is believed bycrores of people did

> he really put his feet on the Indian territory fromNorth to South,

> reducing the sufferings of mankind and ensuring victory ofgood over

> evil? Let us take a look at historical facts: The story of Shri

> Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in theRamayana,

> which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king ofAyodhya.

> Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made

> sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to the

> life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis zodiac

> constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to add

that

> similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in

> thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary

> configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

given

> in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

> calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue

> Service had acquired thissoftware from the US. It is used to

predict

> the solar/lunar eclipses anddistance and location of other planets

> from earth. He entered the relevantdetails about the planetary

> positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki andobtained very

interesting

> and convincing results, which almost determine theimportant dates

> starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of hiscoming back

to

> Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in

> Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

Ram

> was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

> Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as

> Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon). This

> data, was fed into the software. The results indicated that this

> wasexactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10,

> 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years

> back). As per theIndian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla

> Paksha in Chaitra month andthe time was around 12 to 1 noontime.

This

> is exactly the time and date whenRam Navmi is celebrated all over

> India. Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained

> from severalbooks written by Indian and foreign authors before and

> after the birth ofChrist - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan,

Kalidasa's

> Raghuvansam, Baudh andJain literature, etc. These books have

narrated

> in great detail thelocation, rich architecture and beauty of

Ayodhya

> which had many palaces andtemples built all over the kingdom.

Ayodhya

> was located on the banks of theSaryu river with Ganga and Panchal

> Pradesh on one side and Mithila on theother side. Normally 7,000

> years is a very long period during whichearthquakes, storms, floods

> and foreign invasions change the course ofrivers, destroy the

> towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore,the task of

> unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya hasshrunk

in

> size and the rivers have changed their course about 40

kmnorth/south.

> Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per

> ValmikiRamayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan

> (Sidhhashram). Fromthere he went to Mithila, King Janaka's kingdom.

> Here he married Sita afterbreaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers have

> gone along the route adopted byShri Ram as narrated in the Valmiki

> Ramayan and found 23 places which havememorials that commemorate

the

> events related to the life of Shri Ram. Theseinclude Shringi

Ashram,

> Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram,Janakpur (now in

> Nepal), Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great menand not

for

> fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned

in

> Valmiki Ramayan's AyodhyaKand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to

make

> Shri Ram the king because Sun,Mars and Rahu had surrounded his

> nakshatra, and normally under suchplanetary configuration the king

> dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies.Dashratha's zodiac sign

was

> Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. Thisplanetary configuration

was

> prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it wason this day that

Shri

> Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was25 years old at

> that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in ValmikiRamayan

> which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left

Ayodhyafor

> exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of

war

> withKhardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile. It

is

> alsomentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle. When

> this data wasentered, the software indicated that there was a solar

> eclipse on October 7,5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen

from

> Panchvati. The planetaryconfiguration was also the same - Mars was

in

> the middle, on one side wereVenus and Mercury and on the other side

> were Sun and Saturn. On the basis ofplanetary configurations

> described in various other chapters, the date onwhich Ravana was

> killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ramcompleted

14

> years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was alsoNavami

of

> Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back

toAyodhya

> at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar, researched

> on places visited by Shri Ram duringhis exile, and sequentially

moved

> to the places stated as visited by ShriRam in the Valmiki Ramayan,

> starting from Ayodhya he went right uptoRameshwaram. He found 195

> places which still have the memorials connected tothe events

narrated

> in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram andSita. These

> include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur), BhardwajAshram

> (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram

> (Markundi),Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari), Panchvati,

> Sita Sarovar, RamKund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari Ashram,

> Kishkindha (villageAnnagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple.

(The

> writer is a Commissioner of Income Tax posted at Delhi. The

> articlewill conclude on the Oped page on Monday) In Valmiki Ramayan

> it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed abridge over the

sea

> between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing thisbridge, Shri

Ram's

> army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures(reproduced

> here) on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of whichare

> lying submerged in Palk Strait between Rameshwaram and Sri

> Lanka.Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire

to

> develop SitaVatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this was

> Ashok Vatika whereRavana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076 BC).

> Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the

Suryavansh

> and hewas the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other

> relevant particularsof previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka

> Itihas written about 80 yearsago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram. Professor

> Subhash Kak of Lousiana University,in his book, The Astronomical

Code

> of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63ancestors of Shri Ram who ruled

> over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have beentraced out as: Shri Ram,

> King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilipand so on. From

> Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat,everywhere people

> believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence,particularly in the

> tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh andthe North-

> East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas revolvearound

> the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events and

> places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are truecultural

and

> social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste andcreed.

> Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to

> theperiod when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and

> Muslim orChristian faiths were unknown to the world. The words

Hindu

> (resident ofHindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were

> synonymous. India was alsoknown as Bharat (land of knowledge) and

> Aryavarta (where Aryans live) andHindustan (land of " Hindus " -

> derived from word Indus). During Ram Rajya, the evils of caste

system

> based on birth werenon-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is

stated

> to be of shudra class(scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him

as

> his adopted daughter aftershe was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and

Kush

> grew in his ashram as hisdisciples. We need to be proud of the fact

> that Valmiki was perhaps thefirst great astronomer and that his

study

> of planetary configurations hasstood the test of times. Even the

> latest computer softwares havecorroborated his astronomical

> calculations, which proves that he did notcommit any error. Shabari

> is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's army,which

> succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals

> fromCentral and South India. The facts, events and all other

details

> relating tothe life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all the

> Indians includingscheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims,

> Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus

> Christ was born 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years

> back, whereas Ram was born 7,000years back. Hence, discovering the

> details relating to Shri Ram's life wouldbe lot more difficult as

> destruction caused by floods, earthquakes andinvasions etc., would

be

> far greater. But, should that stop our quest forlearning more about

> our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the

fact

> that the Indian civilisationis the most ancient civilisation today.

> It is certainly more than 10,000years old. Therefore, let us reject

> the story of Aryan invasion in India in1,500 BC as motivated

> implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creatorof this

theory

> had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the BritishRule,

we

> were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of

> thinkingwhich believed that everything Indian was inferior and that

> entire " Indianliterature was not worth even one book rack in

> England " . If there weresimilarities in certain features of Indian

> people and people from CentralEurope, then automatic inference

drawn

> was that the Aryans coming fromEurope invaded India and settled

here.

> No one dared of thinking in any otherway. Therefore, there is

urgency

> for the historians and all otherintellectuals to stop reducing

Indian

> history to myth. There is need togather, dig out, search, unearth

and

> analyse all the evidences, which wouldthrow more light on ancient

> Indian civilisation and culture. There is need for the print and

the

> electronic media to take note of thesefacts and create atmosphere

> which would motivate our young and educatedyouth to carry out

> research and unearth true facts about the ancient

Indiancivilisation

> and wisdom and would also encourage them to put across theresults

of

> their research before the people fearlessly and with a sense

> ofpride! There is no need of great austerities or penances to

> worship the LordRamacandra, for He accepts even a small service

> offered by His devotee. ThusHe is satisfied, and as soon as He is

> satisfied, the devotee is successful.Indeed, Lord Sri Ramacandra

> brought all the devotees of Ayodhya back home,back to Godhead.

> (Spoken by Hanuman in Srimad bhagvatam)With best Regards,Ramadas

Rao.

> >

> >

> >

> > @: sreesog@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007

> 16:02:03 +0000 Re: Contextual

> meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Ramdas ji,You don't seem to have paid much attention to, or

> read the debateson Rama's chart going on in this group at all! If

you

> had you shouldhave well understood that the chart given in Ramayana

> is - note it anddon't miss it again -Rama's chart============* The

> Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are usingJHora

put -

> 156 Gregorian calendar for the year)The planatry details are as

> follows -* Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra* Moon in Cancer

(Own

> sign)* Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)* Sun in Pisces * Mercury in

Pisces

> (Debilitated)* Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)* Mars in Capricorn

> (Exalted)* Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)* Lagna - Not mentioned. Note

> that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus

> thestatement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes

> true. Bharata's Chart===============* Planetary position - same as

> above.* Nakshatra - Pushya * Lagna - Not givenLakshmana and

> Satrukhna======================= * Planetary position - same as

> above.* Nakshatra - Aslesha* Lagna - Not givenNote that all the

> conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana getssatisfied. Note that

the

> charts match perfectly well with thedescription given in Valmiki

> Ramayana. Hope this helps.Love,Sreenadh--- In

> ancient_indian_ <%40>

> astrology , HosabettuRamadas

> Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> You have not

> understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama " s chart asdepicted by

> Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of birthetc.?>

With

> Regards,> Ramadas Rao> > > @: sreesog@:

> Wed, 14 Nov 200704:50:39 +0000

Re:

> Contextualmeaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji> >

>

> > > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are living

> andwhat about the planetary movements and their acceleration in

> TretaYuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with

> precessionseconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to solve

> the rhythmof solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its

> significance.The ancient sages were far more intelligent and better

> that theillogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers

represent

> Solaryears, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and

> complementary toour current understanding of human history,

> archeology and evolution(of solar system, earth, life on earth) all

> such ideas becomeirrelevant. So one should try to understand

ancient

> concepts in tunewith out current knowledge and understanding. I

hope

> that clarifies mystand point. Now let us approach your question in

> anotherperspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga' is

> notapplicable to our current astrology then, we should even

> avoiddiscussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If it

is

> so,then why some so called guru of gurus is using such

> planetarypositions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet

> theories? Toquote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>>

> Pt.XXXXXX wasusing mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary

positions

> are same .And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa and

> arudhas andeven the life of sri ramji is > detail with this

data .So

> much exaltedplanets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his

excile

> to forest andthe curses he got ,even > how it was fructified tru a

> servant maid thehunchback > Mandara,and things like that and Venus

> exalted was showingthe> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted as

> 5th lord was showing >the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th from

> arudha lagna was > showingthe marital problems he faced .This was

the

> line of > discussionsgenerally i think .......<==Hope you will have

> an answer. ==>> Howmany thousands of years have passed from

Treta

> Yuga to the > presentKali Yuga ? Do you think that all the planets

> have the same >movements or acceleration in the present Yuga

also ??

> Do you have >any reference regarding such planetary movements

during

> Krita >Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is clear

> that allthese questions become irrelevant in then light of

> clarificationsgiven above. :)Love,Sreenadh---

> Inancient_indian_ <In%

40>

> astrology , HosabettuRamadas

> Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I have a small

> queryregarding your main question itself.At present which in which

> Yuga weare living and what about the planetary movements and

> theiracceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years have

> passedfrom Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think that

> all theplanets have the same movements or acceleration in the

present

> Yugaalso ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary

> movementsduring Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?Because I

> have no ideaof planetary movements in those great Yugas.> Regards,>

> Ramadas Rao.>> > @: sreesog@: Tue, 13

Nov

> 2007 13:51:01+0000 Re:

Contextual

> meaning of theword " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> > >

>

> > Dear Goelji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish etc.

> Please do notloose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I was

> astonished tosee these statements!!! Read carefully the statement

of

> me which youare talking against! ==>> Do you think that either the

> poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun

will

> move 4signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and

> brothers tookbirth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a simple

> word withoutanything wrong associated with and I was not addressing

> anyone inparticular but was speaking about the subject! Actually I

> don'tbelieve that none of the possible author's of that text cannot

> be thatfoolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this

simple

> fact.(i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He

was

> agreat scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other

> poet:If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book

> likeRamayana, he is never going to commit this

mistake.Interpolator:

> Ifsomeone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in

> Sanskrit,and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be

> intelligent enoughto maintain the constancy. Thus the conclusion -

> What ever the periodof the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am

> asking you to simplepossibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our part

in

> understanding it andinterpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)

> ==================If Lagna meansSign and Kuleera means

then, " " Sarpe

> Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhuditaaravo " - get translated

as " Lekhmana

> and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in

> Capricorn Sign " - and everypieces of the puzzle fall in right

places

> & for sure we startappreciating the intelligence and knowledge of

the

> poet. See this as afact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)

> ===============================IfKuleera means Capricorn

> then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhudite ravo " - get

translated

> as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun

was

> in Cancer Sign " . I failed to see,how it coherently integrates the

> pieces of the puzzle, without makingus question the intelligence

and

> knowledge of the poet. Please correctme if I am wrong. That was why

> my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to saythat Lekhmana and Satrukhna

were

> born 4 months > after the birth ofRama and Bharata? Or> * Do you

> think that either the poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough

to

> believe that Sun will move 4signs in a single day (if it > is

assumed

> that rama and brothers tookbirth in consecutive days)<==I was

simply

> asking you to clarify yourview - regarding this issue. And I

thought

> that you have an answer tothis question. And that is why I said -

" I

> sincerely believe that youwill have a clear solution to suggest for

> this problem " . I don'tbelieve, I have committed any sin or mistake

in

> my earlier mail!Actually your previous mail didn't addressed this

> question - and youwere hastily making the statement - " Why are you

> using such words likefoolish etc. Please do not loose your cool and

> temper and that too.... " Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji, what

> is this? I respectyou and we are doing simple academic discussion -

> let us sincerelylook into the possibilities.Love and

regards,Sreenadh-

> -- Inancient_indian_ <In%

40>

> astrology , Gopal Goel

> <gkgoel1937@>wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become exited too

> soon. Why are youusing such words like foolish etc. Please do not

> loose your cool andtemper and that too for proving > something

which

> you believe is rightand others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is

> incarnation of GOD, AND ITDOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED ON

> THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYANGIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND TEACHING.THE

> RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA ISA GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE INSPIRATION IN

> OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> Ifyou also view Lord Shri Rama in the same

> light, some worthwhilediscussion is possible among

> ourselves,otherwise at least I do notwish to join such

discussions.>

> In astrology ,Kuleer means only cancer. Ravao is appearing

separately

> in the Sloka. This may have twoindications:> 1. Sign Cancer was

> rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was risingwith Sun in dignity i.e. at

Noon

> time> As namkaran sanskar of all thefour brothers had taken place

> simultaneously after the appearance ofLORD RAMA ON THE EARTH, THE

> LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> ANDLOGICAL.> Kindly advise,> >

>

> > G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-110

> 076> INDIA > > > > ----- Original Message----> Sreenadh

> <sreesog@>> To:ancient_indian_

> <%40>

> astrology > Sent:

> Tuesday, 13 November,2007 12:59:08 PM> Subject:

> Re: Contextualmeaning of the

> word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >Dear Rao ji &

Goal

> ji,> I could see that both of you are of theopinian that " Kuleera "

>

> means " Cancer Sign " as used in ValmikiRamayana. Interesting! Let us

>

> for argument sake accept that it meansCancer sign itself - in >

> Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify myfollowing doubt. The sloka

>

> given in Valmiki Ramayana is " SarpeJatastu Saumitri Kuleera

abhudite

> > Ravo " - as per your meaning thesloka would get transilated >

> as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born inAslesha Nakshatra when Sun >

> was in Cancer " ! Now the questions -> * Doyou mean to say that

> Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > afterthe birth of Rama

> and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poetor the

> interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move4

> signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and

brotherstook

> birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely believethat

> you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem.

>Love,>

> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com,Gopal

> Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Friends,> > Mr. Raois a

> great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is

> toguide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> > Sloka

> onthe birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to >

> twopossibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.> > 2 Sign

> Cancerwas rising and Sun was placed in most prominent >

position ,i.e

> NOON>> As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was performed

> >simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> >

> Lakshamanand Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra >

when

> Cancer wasrising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> > Ph: 09350311433> >

> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA > > > > > > >

> > -----Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao

> <ramadasrao@ ...>>> ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com>

> > Monday, 12November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE:

> [ancient_indian_ astrology]Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To

> Finn ji> > > > Dear Finn Ji,> >As per my knowledge you are

correct.As

> per Brihajjataka, Yavana >Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka

Rashi.>

> > karkaHkuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho >

> vihitaschadhaatuH.......This shloka is from Yavana Jataka.Meaning >

> karkataka Rashi islike the shape of KulIraakruti which is in >

> water,kalapurusha' schest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative of >

> Dhatu sign orRashi,also indicative of well,river and watery land.>

>

> I hope thishelps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > > > >

>

> > > To:ancient_indian_ astrology> >

> sreesog@> > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' -

> ToFinn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us consider your

> majorarguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as Capricorn is

> also farfetched, to > > > say the least, since all the astrological

> textsdescribe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That is simply your

> ignorance- many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with in

> detail - andclarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could

> mean 'Capricorn'.To convince you, I will provide a> > details

quotes

> and referencesfrom them in the next post. > > ==>> > > If you are

> using " Lagna " forsigns, then you cannot help placing > > > five

> planets of Bhagwan Ramain Karkata, since this is what> > > the

ninth

> sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > > >

> svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshukarkate lagne vakpatav induna > >

>

> saha " > > <==> > This too issimply ignorance. The sloka bit

> means " (Rama took birth)> > inPunarvasu Nakshatra, while 5 planets

> where in own house or> >exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon in

> Cancer sign " . Two things> >should be noted here -> > 1) To denote

> Cancer sign the word Karkata isused (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2) There

too

> the word " Lagna " means " Sign " itself. Note that> > " karkate lagne

> vakpatav induna saha " means " InCancer SIGN Jupitor > was> > with

> Moon " > > ==>> > > Secondly, wecannot overlook the fact

that " Adyatma

> Ramayana " , > which > > > yousays was written in Kerala, contains

the

> following shlokas> > <== > >There is more than one ignorance in

your

> statements. Let see what> >they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana is

NOT

> a text written in Kerala.It is - " an> > ancient Sanskrit work

> extolling the spiritual virtuesof the story > of> > Ramayana. It

> comprises around 4200 verses, isembedded in > Brahm & #257;nda> >

> Purana and is considered to beauthored by Ved Vyasa " - wikipedia.>

>

> (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Adhyatma_ Ramayana)> > 2) What is

> popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDEDTRANSILATION of> > Adyatma

Ramayana

> written by Tunjattu RamanujanEzhuttacchan who is> > known as

> the 'father of malayalam language' agreat scholar. > > 3) We are

NOT

> discussing Adhyatma Ramayana butVALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't

bring

> in irrelevant quotes in between.Note that while Valmiki> > Ramayana

> does not mention Madhu masa etcAdhayata Ramayana does it.> > Note

> that while Valmiki Ramayana tellsus that the birth took place > in>

>

> the 12th (Nakshatra) Month fromthe end date of Putra kameshti,> >

> Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that ithappened at the 10th month. So >

> with> > this much inconsistenciesbetween these two texts - Adhyatma

>

> Ramayana> > quote is NOT worthconsidering while

discussing " Astrology

> in > Valmiki> > Ramayana " . Itis clear that you are bringing in the

> Adhyatma > ramayana> > quoteonly because it mentions your

pet " Madhu

> Masa " in it - but > that> >is irrelevant to the current context.

> Please try to depend ONLY ON> >references from Valmiki Ramayana

alone

> while discussing the same. > >4) I am not interested in your habit

> and inconsistent nature in> >studying subject and introducing

> diversions. So I don't have any >time> > to waste after the quote

and

> inconsistencies you presentedregarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana

> quote. Again it simply means that Ihave > wasted> > enough time on

> the ignorance of " TropicalCalendarvalas " . > > Note: So learn to be

> sincere and be truthful -and if clarity comes> > in from some where

> learn to welcome it †" and if possible drop the> > fanatism and

> use of bad words. You aredragging me to the same> > direction â

€ "

> `I know only to deal withbad with bad and good with > good'> > â

€ "

> so the end result wouldbe the group becoming a mud house and I> >

> don't want it. So pleaseavoid name calling here onwards and me too>

>

> will never resort to it.Let us keep the group clean and sane. >

> People> > has already startedcomplaining about the insane useless

> direction > in> > which thisgroup is going - both you and me are

> culprits for the > same.> >Please know it as a fact. > > Regards,>

>

> Sreenadh> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> com, " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > ><jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Shri

> Sreenadh ji,> > > Namaskar!> > >You are talking of an event of

second

> century BCE. The Surya > > >Sidhanta, which gives the mothodology

of

> calculating " lagna " was > > >very much in vogue then. When you are

> using the word Lagna in the > >> context of planetary positions vis-

a-

> vis some horoscope/birth >chart, > > > it is unimaginable that

> instead of the commoninterpretation of > the > > > word Lagna i.e.

> the sign rising at aparticular time, > > > the " astrologer "

concerned

> would have resortedto some other > meaning > > > of that word! He

> could very well haveused the word " rashi " > instead > > > of Lagna

> then.> > > Secondly, tointerpet Kuleera as Capricorn is also far

> fetched, > to > > > say theleast, since all the astrological texts

> describe it as > > > Karkata!>> > Then you are also ascribing

> a " misprint " or some problem > > > with " Sandhi " for the

> word " abyudyete ravav " and interpreted it > as > > >the description

> of Mars in Capricorn! That also is far fetched!> > > >> > If you

are

> using " Lagna " for signs, then you cannot help placing >> > five

> planets of Bhagwan Rama in Karkata, since this is what the >> >

ninth

> sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > >

> >svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshu karkate lagne vakpatav induna >

>

> >saha " Here you can club the words as " panchasu graheshu karkate >

>

> >lagne, vakpatav induna saha " and interpret them as " five planets >

>

> >were in Karkata rashi, which included the Moon and Jupiter " . You >

>

> >cannot interpret " lagna " as sign in one place and at the same >

time

> >> > as lagna i.e. aschendant in another place in one and the same

>

> >> chapter.> > > > > > The maximum difficulty that arises out of

> thishypothesis is that > in > > > second century BCE, there was

> nomethodology of calculating > planets > > > correctly, whether it

> wasIndia or any other country! India, on > the > > > other hand,

> wassaddled with the Surya Sidhanta, which is > > > fundamentally

the

> mostincorrect work. So it is just a > possibility > > > that

> theastrologer concerned could have calculated the planetary > >

> >positions as per the Surya Sidhanta and then implanted them in >

the

> >> > Valmiki Ramayana! Those calculatons can give very surprising >

>

> >results!> > > > > > Secondly, we cannot overlok the fact

> that " AdyatmaRamayana " , > which > > > you says was written in

Kerala,

> contains thefollowing shlokas> > > " madhumasse site pakshe navmyam

> karkate shubhe>> > punarvasu sahite uchasthe grahapanchake> > >

> mesham pooshanisamprapte pushpavrishti samakule aviraseej jagan > >

>

> nathah parmatmasanatanah " (1/3/14-15)> > > > > > A running

> translation of theseshlokas is> > > " In the month of Madhu, shukla

> paksha --brighthalf--in navmi > tithi > > > and punarvasu nakshara,

> when five planetswere exalted, the sun > was > > > in Mesha, the

> Eternal Lord of theworlds, Parmatma, > incarnated.. .. " > > > > > >

>

> > > 1. Here the sunhas specifically been put in Mesha but at the >

> same > > > time it isMadhu masa -- which is an astronomical

> impossibility!> > > > > > 2.Five planets are exalted but there is

no

> mention that any > planet > >> is in its own rashi..> > > > > > 3.

> Though there is no menion ofKarkata lagna or the Moon in > > >

> Karkata, but if the Sun is in Meshaand it is Navmi tithi, it >

means

> > > > that even if the sun is in 1degree of Mesha the Moon has to

be

> > at a > > > distance of more than96 degrees from the same. Thus

the

> Moon > will > > > be in Karkata 7degrees to Karkata 19 degrees. But

> then Punarvasu > > > nakshatraranges from Mithuna 20 degrees to

> Karkata 3-20. Thus it > > > is againan astronomical impossibility.>

>

> > > > > In short, whichever way youlook at it, whether it is the

> Valmiki > > > Ramayana or the AdyatmaRamayana, the astronomical

Rashi

> position > > > of the planets cannotbe justifed at all!> > > With

> regards,> > > AKK> > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@

> . com, " Sreenadh " > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > >> > > >

> Dear Finn ji,> > > > The root (dhatu)for the word 'Lagna' is 'Lag'

> which means> > > > join/conjunct/mix/combine. 'Lagati' or 'Lagitam'

> means " the > one > > > that> > > >joins/conjuncts/

mixes/combines " .

> There are many words that > sprung> > > from> > > > this root. Look

> at the following word -> > > > " Lagna MandalaH " - it means the same

> as " Rasi Chakra " and means> > > >'Zodiac'. > > > > Mandala = Chakra

=

> Circle> > > > Lagna = Rasi =Sign> > > > Lagna Mandala means 'Sign

> Circle' and 'Rasi Chakra' also >> > means 'Sign> > > > Circle' or

in

> other words both are other namesfor the > Ecliptic, > > > the> > >

>

> zodiac circle. The word 'LagnaMandala' you can find in any > > >

> standard> > > > Sanskritdictionary. Thus it is evident that the

> word 'Lagna' > can> > > >means 'Sign'. Now coming to Nirukti, the

> word 'Lagna' has the> > > >following Nirukti -> > > > 'Lagati

GrahaiH

> iti Lagna' meaning 'the onewhich> > > > join/conjunct/ mix/combine

> with Planets is called Lagna';> certainly > > > the> > > > word

lagna

> here refers to 'Sign' becauseit is when the planets > > > joins> >

>

> > (traverse through) signsthat the results originate. Thus every >

>

> > sign> > > > means'Lagna'. > > > > Another Nirukti for the word

> Lagna is 'Lagati Phalaiiti Lagna'> > > > meaning 'the one which

> join/conjuct/ mix/combine (orin other > words> > > > shows) with

the

> results is called Lagna'; herethe word 'Lagna' > can> > > > refer

> either to 'Sign' or to 'Asc'. > >> > Later the the word 'Lagna' got

a

> better and clear definition > > >such as> > > > 'Raseenam Udayo

> Lagna' meaning the 'the rising sign iscalled > > > Lagna'.> > > >

> Note that here also the word lagna isessentially associated > with

>

> > > the> > > > word 'Sign', but stillit is due to importance to the

>

> word 'rising'> > > > that it gottranslated as 'Asc'. Of course

since

> the at the > > > horizon,> > > >the sky and the earth joins and so

> the word 'Lagna' is apt here > too>> > > and that is why the

> translation of this word as 'Ascendant' > >> acceptable. > > > >

Note

> that when used interchangeably with thewords Arudha (as > > > done>

>

> > > in Prasnamarga) , the word 'Lagna'loses all its association >

> with> > > > 'rising sign' even today, andresort to the old

> meaning 'Sign'!> > > > Further there are many Lagnassuch as 'Ghati

> Lagna', 'Hora > Lagna',> > > > 'Bhava Lagna', 'SreeLagna', 'Arudha

> Lagna' etc some of which > are > > > NOT> > > > AT ALLrelated

> to 'rising' or 'horizon' in any way. Therefore > in > > >such> > >

>

> contexts to translating the word 'Lagna' as 'Asc' becomes> > >

> erroneous.. > > > > Considering all these points it becomesclear

that

> accepting the> > > > meaning 'Sign' for the word 'Lagna' in'Valmiki

> Ramayana' > context > > > is a> > > > truly acceptableargument,

well

> supported by Nirukti and > > > Dictionaries.> > > >Hope this helps.

>

> > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_

> astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> >

>

> > >> > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > The niruktiand dictionary

quotes

> which gives the > > > meaning 'Sign' to> > > > >the word 'Lagna' I

> will provide - please wait for the next > post. > >> Now> > > > >

> coming to your next argument -> > > > > ==>> > > > > >However, even

> if we agree for the sake of argument that > lagna > > >means > > >

>

> > > sign, how do you say that the sun was in Mina sinceit has > > >

> very > > > > > > clearly been stated " kuleere abyuditeravav " i.e.

> when the > sun > > > was > > > > > > in Kuleera i.e.Karkata Rashi!

> Thus even if we take the sun > of > > > > > > BhagwanRama in Mina

> instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana > > > and > > > >> >

> Shatrugana could not be in Karkata in any case.> > > > > <==> > >>

>

> It is already answered in a previous mail to Kaul ji. But I > >

> >will> > > > > re-state it here. > > > > > " kuleere abyudite ravav "

> Itcould be a simple sandhi mistake > > > of a> > > > >

missing 'aa'.

> Andthe correct reading could be " kuleere> > > > >

> abyuditaraavav " ,meaning " Mars (aara) was in Capricorn > > >

> (Kuleera) " .> > > > > Notethat the meaning of the word Kuleera is

> given in Sanskrit> > > > >Nikhandus as " Kuleero Nakra Karkatau "

> meaning " The word > Kuleera > >> is> > > > > used for Capricon and

> Cancer " . The auther of Hridyapadha> vyakhya > > > of> > > > >

> Brihajjataka clearly quotes manyreferences from various > > >

> Nikhandus and> > > > > argues that themeaning Capricorn for the

word

> Kuleera is > also > > > very> > > > >popular. Note that this solves

> all the confusion and shows > that > >> apart> > > > > from the

> position of Ju & Mo in Cancer the textprovides the > > > position>

>

> > > > of Many other planets as well.For example it is clear from >

> the> > > > > description given alongwith Bharata's Nakshatra that

Sun

> and > > > Mercury> > > > > are inPisces, and from the one given

along

> while giving the > > > Nakshatra>> > > > of Lakshmana and Satrukhna

> that Mars is in Capricorn! So it >> > becomes> > > > > clear that

all

> those brothers are born inconsecutive days, > and > > > also> > > >

>

> that the poet didn't gavethe Asc of any of them - but only > the> >

>

> > > planetary position. >> > > > Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >

>

> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology, " Avtar >

> Krishen > > >Kaul " > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > >

> > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com, " Sreenadh " >

>

> > > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>

>

> > > > >Namaskar!> > > > > > From your curent post, it appears that

> both of usagree > that > > > the > > > > > > astrological

references

> in theValmiki Ramayana are > > > concoctions > > > > > > since the

> planetarypositions appear to have been for a > period > > > of > >

>

> > > >second century BCE.> > > > > > However, you have also said> >

>

> > > >> > > > > > <4) While describing the Nakshatra of Bharata

> thestatement > > > given is> > > > > > " Pushye jatastu bharato

> MeenaLagne Prasanna Dhee " should be> > > > > > translated

to " Bharata

> wasborn in Pushya Nakshatra, and at > > > that > > > > > > time Sun

> & Mercury was in the Sign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > > > means > > >

>

> >> Sign - as per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit > dictionaries

>

> >> and > > > > > > Nirukti of the word Lagna too clearly support

> thismeaning > of > > > the > > > > > > word Lagna) ->> > > > > > >

>

> > > >> I do not agree with you here since no astrologer, howevr > >

> >useless or > > > > > > ignorant he/she may be or might have been

> wouldbe unaware > of > > > the > > > > > > fact that lagna means a

> signascending at the time of > > > birth/event. > > > > > > There

is

> aproecedure for calculating the same in the Surya > > > Sidhanta >

>

> >> > > also, even if that is the most inaccuate astronomical work.

>

> >> The > > > > > > complete sholka is " Pushye jatastu Bharato,

> Minalagne > > > > > > prasannadheeh, sarpe jatatavtu saumitri,

> kuleereabyudite > > > ravav " --> > > > > > 1/18/15> > > > > > > > >

>

> > > Thusaccording to me Mina Lagna means Mila langa! However, > > >

> even > > >> > > if we agree for the sake of argument that lagna

means

> sign, > >> how do > > > > > > you say that the sun was in Mina

since

> it hasvery clearly > > > been > > > > > > stated " kuleere abyudite

> ravav " i.e. when the sun was in > > > Kuleera > > > > > > i.e.

Karkata

> Rashi!Thus even if we take the sun of Bhagwan > > > Rama in > > > >

>

> > Minainstead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana and Shatrugana > > >

> could not> > > > > > be in Karkata in any case. > > > > > > The

names

> ofnakshatras are very clear i.e. Shri RAm was > born > > > in > > >

>

> >> Aditi-Daivata i.e. Punarvasu (ii) Bharata in Pushya and > (iii->

>

> >iv)> > > > > > Lakshmana and Shatrugana in " Sarpi " i.e. Ashlesha.

> Theyare > > > in a > > > > > > sequence, but if the sun of

Lakshamana

> andShatrugana is in > > > Karkata, > > > > > > who are younger by

> justtwo days, the sun of Shri Ram and > > > Bharata > > > > > >

> cannot beeither in Mina or Mesha!> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus

> whichever way welook at it, there certainly has been > a > > > > >

>

> manipulation ofplanetary positions in the Valmiki Ramayana.> > > >

>

> > With regards,>> > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul> > > > > > >> > > > >

>

> > Dear Kaul ji,>> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > ii) The planetary

> position of BhagwanRam as given in > the > > > > > > Valmiki > > >

>

> > > > > Ramaya was " implanted " in that work by some " jyotishi " > of

>

> > > either > > > >> > > > that period or a later one!> > > > > > >

> <==> > > > > > >Exactly! Not only the horoscope but the whole

> Ramayana is > > > re-> >> > > > written> > > > > > > by 'Brhamanic

> priests' supported by Sungadynasty - is > the > > > correct> > > >

>

> > > argument. (And not byJyotishis). Thus the currently > > >

> available> > > > > > > 'BrahmanicRamayana' (Why insult sage

Valmiki)

> is clearly > > > the work > > > >> > of> > > > > > >

some 'brahmanic

> poet' who lived after BC 157, whotook a > > > planetary> > > > > >

>

> position known to him and ascribedit to Rama!! > > > > > > > ==>> >

>

> > > > > > Since 157 BC is an eraof recorded history without any > >

>

> > > > obscurity, we > > > > > >> > do not have any such records

that

> a divine incarnation > > > cameinto > > > > > > > > existence then,

> especially since it is after theBudha-> > > Avtar and > > > > > > >

>

> after the advent of Maya themlechha into India!> > > > > > > <== >

>

> > > > > > You are absolutelyright! And that is why it is said >

that -

> > > > it is> > > > > > >just the imagination of the poet who wrote

> this poem in > the > > >recent> > > > > > > past. He just took

> some samples from the recent> history > > > known to> > > > > > >

him

> and manipulated the tocreate a long poem - that > > > fulfills his>

>

> > > > > > purpose. Idon't have any disregard for the 'Brahmnic >

> poet' > > > who > > > > >> knew> > > > > > > what he was doing -

but

> I feel pity for the peoplewho > > > mistook to> > > > > > >

represent

> actual history, andbelieve that Monkey men > with a > > > tail> > >

>

> > > > lived inrecent past and also that Sanskrit as used in > > >

> Ramayana> > > > >> > existed in the period of those monkey

people. )

> > > > > > > >==>> > > > > > > > Even here, you are using " J Hora "

for

> 157 BC whenall > we > > > had at > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >

> point of timei.e. 157 BC by way of astronomical bibles > > > was

the

> > > > > > > >> Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha as given in the >

> Pancha > > > >> > Sidhantika!> > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > Kaul

ji,

> that is notthat important - since the poet who > > > wrote> > > > >

>

> > Ramyanais not that accurate in describing the charts - > not > >

>

> that > > >> > > he is> > > > > > > not giving any longitudes but

only

> describesa planetary > > > position > > > > > > of> > > > > > > BC

> 157. Hegives the position of ALL THE PLANETS and > > > mentions

>

> > > > > >that> > > > > > > it was Punarvasu Nakshatra and that the

> Tithi wasNavami. > No > > > great> > > > > > > astronomical

knowledge

> isnecessory to mention this much, > and> > > > > > > therefore

> anysoftware will do. Further JHora most of > the > > > > > >

> peoplein> > > > > > > this group is having and they can verify the

> planetary> > > position > > > > > > using> > > > > > > that. > >

>

> > > > >If you are bewildered by the statement that " ALL THE > > >

> PLANETSARE> > > > > > > MENTIONED " , then here goes the

> clarification:> > > >> > > 1) Thiti Navami, Nakshatra Punar vasu -

> clearly stated> > > > >> > 2) Ju, Ma in Cancer - clearly stated.> >

>

> > > > > 3) 5 planets inown house or exaltation - statement not > >

>

> clear.> > > > > > > Thencomes the interesting part -> > > > > > >

4)

> While describing theNakshatra of Bharata the > statement > > >

given

> > > > > > > is> > > >> > > " Pushye jatastu bharato Meena Lagne

> Prasanna Dhee " should > be>> > > > > > translated to " Bharata was

> born in Pushya Nakshatra, and >at > > > that > > > > > > time> > >

>

> > > > Sun & Mercury was in theSign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > means

>

> > > Sign - > > > > > > as> > >> > > > per the usage in Ramayana;

The

> Sanskrit dictionaries and > > >Nirukti of> > > > > > > the word

Lagna

> too clearly support thismeaning of the > word > > > > > > Lagna) ->

>

> > > > > > Thus theposition of Sun and Mercury are clearly stated!>

>

> > > > > > 5) Whiledescribing the Nakshatra of Lakshmana and > > >

> Satrukhna it is> > > >> > > said that the Nakshatra is Aslesha and

> also that " Kuleere> > > >> > > Abhuditeaaravo " means " Arra (Mars)

was

> in Capricon > > >(Kuleera) " !! > > > > > > Which> > > > > > > is

> exact! Thus it becomesclear that our confusion > > > about 'Sun in>

>

> > > > > > Cancer' wasjust because of a Sandhi problem!! - Thus the

>

> > > position > > > > >> of> > > > > > > Mars is clearly stated! > >

>

> > > > > 6) Thus whatremains is the position of Sa and Ve - which >

>

> > as per > > > > > >the> > > > > > > given Tropical chart of 14

March

> 157 BC becomes >clarified. > > > Sa is in> > > > > > > Aquarius and

> Ve is in Taurus! >> > > > > > Thus the poet knew well what he is

> speaking about - the >> > confusion> > > > > > > till date

regarding

> this planetary positionbeing caused > by > > > our> > > > > > >

> ignorance and lack of effortto understand the facts! > > > > > >

>

> Love,> > > > > > > Sreenadh>> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In

> ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Avtar > > > Krishen

>

> > > > > > Kaul " > > > > > >> <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > >

>

> > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>> > > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > > > >

> <Calculate the planetaryposition for 14 March -156 > > >

(Gregorian>

> > > > > > > > Calendar);9.15 PM approx in JHora; and you will see >

> what > > > I > > > > > >mean. The> > > > > > > > Horoscope matches

> well with the descriptionin > Ramayana.>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > My dear Sreenadhji, youare making really a fool of > > > yourself

> by > > > > > > such > > > >> > > > comments!> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > All you are trying toprove is that the planetary > position >

>

> > of > > > > > > > >Bhagwan Rama, as given in the Valmiki Ramayana,

> is the > > > planetary> > > > > > > > position of March 14, 157 BC.

> Obviously, this leads to> > > two > > > > > > > > conclusions: > >

>

> > > > > > 1) EitherBhagwan Ram was born on that date i.e. March >

14,

> > > > 157 > > > > >> BC at > > > > > > > > 9-15 PM> > > > > > > >

or>

> > > > > > > > ii)The planetary position of Bhagwan Ram as given in

>

> the > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > > > Ramaya was " implanted " in

that

> work by some " jyotishi " > of > > > either > > > > > > > > that

period

> or a laterone!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since 157 BC is an

era

> of recrodedhistory without any > > > > > > obscurity, we > > > > >

>

> > > do nothave any such records that a divine incarnation > > >

came

> into > > >> > > > > existence then, especially since it is after

the

> Budha-> > >Avtar and > > > > > > > > after the advent of Maya the

> mlechha intoIndia!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus all you are

> proving withyour astrological > knowledge > > > and > > > > > >

> latest > > > > > >> > astronomical softwares is that some uselss

and

> foolish > > >jyotishi > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > implanted the

> planetaryposition of March 14, 157 BC > into > > > the > > > > > >

>

> > ValmikiRamayana just to make even that divine > incarnation > > >

>

> > > > >subservient to planetary suzarinity!> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > >Even here, you are using " J Hora " for 157 BC when all > we > >

>

> hadat > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > point of time i.e. 157 BC by

> wayof astronomical bibles > > > was the > > > > > > > > Surya

> Sidhanta ofMaya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha > > > > > >

> Sidhantika!> > >> > > > > And as is an open secret, that is the

most

> useless > > >astronomical > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > by

someone

> who did notknow even ABC of astronomy, so > much > > > so > > > > >

>

> that > > >> > > > > he did not have any knowledge of precession

> either!> > > > >> > > QED/QEF> > > > > > > > With regards, > > > >

>

> > > > AKK> > > >> > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@

> . com, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > >

>

> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > >

>

> > > Calculate theplanetary position for 14 March -156 > > >

> (Gregorian> > > > > > > > >Calendar); 9.15 PM approx in JHora; and

> you will see > > > what I > >> > > > mean. > > > > > > > > The> > >

>

> > > > > > Horoscope matcheswell with the description in > > >

> Ramayana. > > > > > > > > > Let uslook at the core argument of Kaul

> ji -> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > >> > > > iii) The sun could

never

> be in Mesha -- whether the > so > > >> > > called > > > > > > > >

> sayana> > > > > > > > > > or the socalled nirayana --- if it was

> Madhu Masa > > > i.e. the > > > > > > >> first > > > > > > > > > >

> month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time ofbirth of > > > Bhagwan > >

>

> > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > <== > > > >> > > > > I am yet to see

any

> reference in so called Valmiki > > >Ramayana > > > > > > which> > >

>

> > > > > > states that 'Rama's birthtook place in Madhu Masa'; > I >

>

> > hope > > > > > > Kaul ji> > > > >> > > > will come up with

relevant

> quote from the same > text. ;=) > >> > > > Actually > > > > > > > >

> if> > > > > > > > > we read throughRamayana we could easily see

that

> the > > > birth > > > > > > took > >> > > > > > place> > > > > > >

>

> > BEFORE the advent of Vasanta Ritu.> > > > > > > > > Also note

that

> the meaning 'Sign(Rasi)' for the > >> word 'Lagna' > > > > > > is

a>

> > > > > > > > > very popular one, andthe original one. The Nirukta

>

> > > defenition > > > > > > of > > > >> > > > the> > > > > > > > >

> word 'Lagna' itself means 'Sign (Rasi)'and not Asc, > > > even > >

>

> > > > though > > > > > > > > the> > > >> > > > > second meaning

> became popular later. > > > > > > > > > Andso the conclusion - who

> ever made up this text -> > > was > > > > > >> > describing> > > >

>

> > > > > a recent planetary position which waswell known to > him ->

>

> > > > > > > > possibly > > > > > > > > a> > >> > > > > > planetary

> position of some king in his own period, > and >> > that is > > > >

>

> > why> > > > > > > > > Ramayana is a mereliterary text, and NOT a

> divine > one. > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > >> > > > > If some parts

> of it seems to be confusing,> > > > > > > > >> anachronistic,

> interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > may > > >> > > better

to>

> > > > > > > > > > simply wait and make furtherinvestigations into >

> the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > > <==> > > > >> > > > I agree -

but

> is it not that these discussions itself > > > is> > > > > > part of

>

> > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > >investigations into the

subject?

> > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > >> > > You have come up with some

> relevant questions > > > regarding >> > > > > > > Ramayana's> > > >

>

> > > > > > description of thehoroscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If >

>

> > > > > possible > > > > > >> > it > > > > > > > > > > may be a

good

> idea to compare thesehoroscope-> > > descriptions > > > > > > to >

>

> > > > > > > > >similar descriptions from other texts.. > > > > > >

>

> > > <==> > > > >> > > > Yes, I agree - and our field is wast -> > >

>

> > > > > >Nirayana Astrology - Rishi Horas & Tantric texts> > > > >

>

> > > >Sayana/Tropical Astrolology - Vedic literature, > Epics, > > >

>

> > >Puranas > > > > > > > > etc > > > > > > > > > There is lot

> ofunprocessed, non-scrutinized data > > > around, and > > > > > >

we

> > >> > > > > > can> > > > > > > > > do much; though our studies -

> whetherthe conclusions > > > agree > > > > > > with> > > > > > > >

>

> popularnotions and beliefs or not. > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > >

>

> > > > >The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the > >

>

> birth >> > > > > and > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > >

> horoscopes ofboth Rama and Krishna. I have seen > this > > > > > >

> description> > >> > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the

description

> from > Ramayana> > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > one> > >

>

> > > > > > >given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or are > there

>

> > > > > > >> differences?> > > > > > > > > > This may actually

> provide us withsome new and > > > relevant > > > > > > > >

> information.> > > > > > >> > <==> > > > > > > > > I agree - quote

and

> proceed. But remember onething - > > > our > > > > > > major> > > >

>

> > > > > concern in thesediscussions is 'Astrology in Valmiki > > >

>

> > > Ramayana' > > > > > >> > (and> > > > > > > > > not merely the

> horoscope of Rama), and letus not > forget > > > the > > > > > >

main

> > > > > > > > > area> > > >> > > > > of study, while dealing with

> diversions. At the end > of > >> our > > > > > > study, > > > > > >

>

> > for> > > > > > > > > suresome useful and systematic material

should

> come > > > up. We > > >> > > > > will > > > > > > > > > preserve

> and present it - as abackground for further > > > > > > > >

> investigations> > > > > > > > >into other areas. :=)> > > > > > > >

>

> Love,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -

--

> In ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Finn > > >

> Wandahl " > > > > > > > > ><finn.wandahl@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > >

>>

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr.Sreenadh & Mr. Kaul,> > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > Perhapsone should not draw too hasty conclusions >

>

> > regarding > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > origin> > > > > > > > >

>

> of the Ramayana. If someparts of it seems to be > > > confusing,> >

>

> > > > > > > >anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated, then it >

>

> > may > > > >> > better to> > > > > > > > > > simply wait and make

> furtherinvestigations into > the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > > > > You have come up with some relevant questions > >

> >regarding > > > > > > > > Ramayana's> > > > > > > > > >

description

> ofthe horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > > > > > > possible > >

>

> >> > > > it may> > > > > > > > > > be a good idea to compare

> thesehoroscope-descripti > ons > > > to > > > > > > similar> > > >

>

> > > >> > descriptions from other texts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > >> > The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the >

>

> >birth > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > >

> >horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna. I have seen > this > > > > >

> >description> > > > > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the

> descriptionfrom > Ramayana > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > >

>

> one> > > >> > > > > > given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or

are

> > there >> > > > > > > differences?> > > > > > > > > > This may

> actuallyprovide us with some new and > > > relevant > > > > > > >

> >information.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-)> > > > > >

>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Finn> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@

> , " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> >

>

> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > > > > > > > >

>

> > ==>> > > >> > > > > > > > The best option, therefore, is that we

> must > admit >> > that > > > > > > these> > > > > > > > > > > >

> astrologicalcombinations in the Ramayanas are > > > later day> > >

>

> > > > > > > >> interpolations > > > > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > >

>

> > > > > Thenwhy don't with a better spirit accept that > > > the >

>

> > > > > whole> > > > > > > > ramayana> > > > > > > > > > > itself

is

> a made up textcreated between 2nd BC > and > > > 2 > > > > > >

AD?

> > > > > > > >> With the> > > > > > > > > > > numerous dereference

to

> Buddha & Jainreligions, > > > > > > Ardhasastra > > > > > > > >

(of>

> > > > > > > >> > > Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I >

> believe > > >that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is clear> > > > >

>

> > > > > > thatit is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD > > >

for

> > > > > > >sure - > > > > > > > > or better> > > > > > > > > > > in

> 2AD in Sungaperiod itself. > > > > > > > > > > > There is no wonder

> that theastrological > reference > > > in > > > > > > > > Ramayana

> is> > > > >> > > > > > utterly wrong and seems to be made up and in

> the > > >line of > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > >

>

> > >Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly > > > superstitions. > >

>

> > >> Actually > > > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > > only can

> beexpected from such a text that is NOT > AT > > > ALL > > > > > >

>

> >written by> > > > > > > > > > > sage Valmiki, but possibly by

> somestupid > brahmins > > > of > > > > > > sunga > > > > > > > >

> period.>> > > > > > > > > > What else do you think can be expected

> from such >a > > > text?!!> > > > > > > > > > > So I will request

you

> to betteraccept the fact > > > that - > > > > > > The > > > > > > >

>

> whole> >> > > > > > > > > Ramayana itself is a made up text - a

text

> > created> > > with a > > > > > > > > purpose -> > > > > > > > > >

>

> createdbetween 2nd century BC and 2nd century > AD. > > > Even the>

>

> > > > >> > > > > astronomical references in it is going in the >

same

> > > > >> > direction. > > > > > > > > If there> > > > > > > > > > >

> WAS aValmiki Ramayana prior to the currently > > > available > > >

>

> > >one (as> > > > > > > > > > > referenced in Mahabharata) , then

> thattext is > buried > > > in > > > > > > dept > > > > > > > > by

> the> > >> > > > > > > > political and religious fanatics who had a

>

> purpose >> > and > > > > > > wanted > > > > > > > > to> > > > > > >

>

> > > >project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by > > > calling >

>

> > > >> Buddha > > > > > > > > a thief> > > > > > > > > > > and

> massmurdering Buddists. It was the hall make > of > > > that > > >

>

> > >era > > > > > > > > (BC 200> > > > > > > > > > > to AD 200),

> andevident from many other literary > > > works as > > > > > > > >

> well.> > > > > > > > > > > So instead of going against astrologers -

 

> how >> > about > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > against> > > > > >

>

> > > >> and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures > who > > >

> in a >> > > > > > > futile> > > > > > > > > > > effort to spread

> Animalkilling, and brahmin > > > projecting, > > > > > > Yaga> > >

>

> > > > >> > > services, - rewrote all the good old ancient > scripts

>

> > > and> > > > > > even > > > > > > > > tried to> > > > > > > > > >

>

> steeland accommodate even the non-vedic > > > astrological > > > >

>

> >signs > > > > > > > > also into> > > > > > > > > > > scripts

> thatpropagated such vedic rituals? Isn't > it > > > that > > > > >

>

> > >Ramayana is> > > > > > > > > > > also a clear proof of the same?

>

> > >> > > > > > > > I believe - this would be more logically > >

> >acceptable > > > > > > path, > > > > > > > > with> > > > > > > > >

>

> >enough evidence in support. > > > > > > > > > > > Endnote:

> Ramayanais a made-up text. Not at all > > > > > > authentic. > > >

>

> > > > >Giving it> > > > > > > > > > > importance more than a simple

> literarywork is > > > ignorance. > > > > > > Rama > > > > > > > >

is

> god> > >> > > > > > > > or not is irrelevant in an academic

> discussion of > a> > > made > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > text

like>

> > > > > > > > > >> Ramayana. Ramayana is a text which is NOT

written

> > by > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > > > for sure> > > > > > > > > >

> > - he cannot besuch a corrupted, full of > partiality > > > and >

>

> > > > > hatred> >> > > > > > > > > influenced, ignorant individual.

> Sage Valmiki was >a > > > great> > > > > > > > > > > knowledgeable

> sage as evident fromYoga Vasishta, > > > and > > > > > > > >

> ascribing the> > > > > > > >> > > authorship of a text like

currently

> available > > > Ramayana on> > > > > > him > > > > > > > > is a> >

>

> > > > > > > > > SIN, and aninsult of that great sage. > > > > > > >

>

> > > > I wil better adoptthis line of thinking. > > > > > > > > > >

>

> Love,> > > > > > > > > >> Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > >ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> com, " Avtar > > > > > > > >Krishen Kaul " > > > > > > > > > > >

> <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

Shri

> Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > > > >> Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > > >

> <I request you to look in to thefollowing > > > argument and > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > possibilities ->>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > On the other hand Ireqeuswt all of you to > ponder > > >

on

> the > > > > > > > > following> > > > > > > > > > > > facts, even if

> they are unpleasant:> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

1.

> The Valmiki Ramayana issupposed to be Aadi > > > Mahakavya > > > >

>

> > > > i.e. the > > > > >> > > > > > > very first Mahakavya (Epic)

of

> Indian history > and > >> > > > Maharshi > > > > > > > > Valamiki >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > isknown as Aadi Kavi.> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > 2.The Mahabharata is a much later work.> > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to

have

> incarnated > much > > >> > > earlier > > > > > > > > than > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > BhagwanKrishna.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > 4. ShriKrishna is supposed to have incarnaed > > > much > > >

>

> > > earlier >> > > > > > > than> > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > >

>

> > > > >Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE> > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > A few million dollar questions are:> > >

>

> > > > >> > > > a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or > Mangal

>

> > >Shani > > > > > > etc.> > > > > > > > > planets > > > > > > > >

>

> > >> in the VJ> > > > > > > > > > > > b) We do not find any Mesha

> etc.Rashis in the > > > > > > Mahabharata> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > >> > > > > > > c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or any >

>

> >Mangal > > > > > > Shani > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas > prior > > > to the >

>

> >> > > > > Surya > > > > > > > > > > > > Sidhanta of the

> PanchaSidhantika!> > > > > > > > > > > > The questions arising out

of

> thesefacts are:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i )

How

> comewe find the horoscopic details of > > > Bhagwan > > > > > >

> Rama,> > >> > > > > > Bharata, > > > > > > > > > > > > Shatruna and

> evenLakshamana in the Valmiki > > > Ramayana?> > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > >> > > > > > > > > ii) How come in spite of the best efforts of

>

> all >> > the > > > > > > > > astronomers > > > > > > > > > > > >

> nobody hasbeen able to reconcile the > > > irreconcilable > > > > >

>

> facts > >> > > > > > that if > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagwan Rama

was

> born inSun in Mesha and Moon > in > > > > > > Karakta in > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been > > >

Navmki

> > > > >> > tithi > > > > > > > > or vice-> > > > > > > > > > > >

> versa?> > >> > > > > > > > > iii) The sun could never be in Mesha --

 

> whether > >> the so > > > > > > called> > > > > > > > > sayana > >

>

> > > > > > >> > > or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu >

Masa

> > > > i.e.> > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > month ofthe Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth > of > > > > > >

> Bhagwan > > > >> > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > iv)Thesun of the younger brothers could never > > > have been

>

> > > > > > in> > > > > > > > Karkata > > > > > > > > > > > > if the

> sun of BhagwanRama was in Mesha or even > > > Mina!> > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > In a nutshell, the more we try to

> reconcile > these > >> > > > > > irreconcilable > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > facts, the more wewill be making a laughing > stock > > > of > >

>

> > > > > > ourselves!>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> The best option,therefore, is that we must > admit > > > that > > >

>

> > > these > > >> > > > > > > > > astrological combinations in the

> Ramayanas are > > >later day > > > > > > > > > > > > interpolations

> by some good fornothing > > > overzealous > > > > > > > >

astrologers

> who > > > > > >> > > > > > did not know even this much of astronomy

> that > if > > >the sun > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Bhagwan > > >

>

> > > > > > > > >Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could > never

>

> > > have > > >> > > been > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > >

> Karkata justafter two days in the case of His > > > siblings!> > >

>

> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT

JUST

> FOR THIS FACT> THAT > > > WE DO > > > > > > NOT > > > > > > > >

HAVE

> A > > > > > >> > > > > > HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR

HIM

> HAS > > > > >> INCREASED > > > > > > > > SINCE IT > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > MEANSTHAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA > > > KARTUM > >

>

> > > > > >SAMARTH AND > > > > > > > > > > > > NOT SUBJECT TO

> PLANETARYSUZARINITY!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> And thetail-piece of all this haranguing is > that > > > it > > > >

>

> > means> > > > > > > > clearly > > > > > > > > > > > > that Rishis

> likeValmiki nad the Veda Vayasa > etc. > > > did not> > > > > > > >

> >believe in > > > > > > > > > > > > any pedictive gimmicks either.>

>

> >> > > > > > > > > With regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > Avtar

> KrishenKaul> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invite your mail

> contactsto join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces. It's

> easy! Tryit! > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails

as

> you wish.To know > how, go to > http://help. /

> l/in//mail/mail/ tools/tools- 08.html> >> > > > > > 5,

50,

> 500, 5000 -Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go

> tohttp://help.

> <tohttp://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools->

> /l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-

> 08.html> >> > > > >

> >________>

> Discoverthe new Windows Vista>http://search.

> <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?> msn.com/results.aspx?

> q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE> > > > > > > >

> ________> Invite

> your mail contacts to join your friends list with WindowsLive

Spaces.

> It's easy!>http://spaces. <http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?>

> live.com/spacesapi.aspx?

> wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx & mkt=en-us>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Discover the new Windows Vista

> > http://search.

> <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en->

> msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-

> US & form=QBRE

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sreenadh ji

 

Though I agree with you insofar that

Nakshatras are usually referred to Lunar placement one shouldn’t disregard

the possibility of being Asc as well. Are you inferring that there may Not have

been any knowledge of Rising sign (Asc) during Treta yuga? Please don’t think I am “peddling”

these thoughts just to get around the fact that “Sun can’t be in

Aries simultaneously whilst Moon is in Punarvasu Nakshatras” – I am

just suggesting that perhaps we should be more open minded in our thinking whilst

interpreting the Slokas …….

 

Insofar as the “Naming”

ceremony goes I was stressing that All 4 Brothers were named 12 Days After the

birth of Shri Ram as in one of your earlier emails you had suggested Bharat  + other brothers may have been born almost a

year After Shri Ram.

 

Best wishes …….

 

Jai Sita Ram

 

Ram

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Sreenadh

16 November 2007 07:23

 

Subject:

Re: Contextual meaning of the word

" Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Jaswal ji,

==>

> rather than ......... thinking that the

> Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

> more sense in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

<==

NO - because there was no such convention or tradition in ancient

india,

as we could clearly see understand from ancient astrological

classics. Nakshatra means " Nakshatra in which Moon is placed " ; If the

 

poet had followed some unconventional path, definitely he must have

mentioned it. He never does it, means he was referring to the normal

Nakshatra system.

==>

> if the Naming ceremony was conducted 11 days After

<==

That is normal - for Kshetriyas the naming ceremony should be done

in the 12th day (what kind of day - you clarify) as per Smritis. The

same may have been followed there as well.

So neither your suggestion is applicable nor it solves anything.

Regards,

Sreenadh

 

,

" Ram Jaswal "

<rkjaswal wrote:

>

> Namaste Sreenadh ji + list members

>

> May I suggest that rather than get " bogged " down with thinking

that

the

> Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

more sense

> in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

>

> After all from Valmiki Ramayana if the Naming ceremony was

conducted 11 days

> After Shri Ram's Birth then doesn't it make more sense that Shri

Ram's Birth

> Nak was Punarvasu whilst Bharat's was Pushyami and Lakshmana and

Satrukhna

> was Ashlesha? This wouldn't then contradict Any Tithi's mentioned

per

> Planetary placements.

>

> Trusting this explanation helps in clearing up any confusion in your

> understanding of the text (?) …….

>

> Best wishes and regards …….

>

> Jai Sita Ram

>

> Ram

>

> _____

>

>

>

On Behalf Of

Sreenadh

> 15 November 2007 09:30

>

> Re: Contextual meaning of the

word

> " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

>

> Dear Ramdas ji,

> There was no need for such a long but providing 'nothing new' mail.

> Look at this statement:

> ==>

> The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi

Valmiki

> in theRamayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the

> king ofAyodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has

> made sequentialastronomical references on important dates related

to

> the life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

> zodiac constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to

> add that similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated

in

> thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary

> configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

given

> in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

> calendar can be known.

> Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

> Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

> Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as

> Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

> <==

> Note the following points -

> * From the primary reference, i.e. Valmiki Ramaya itself, we now

> know well about the sloka, planetary configuration and

possibilities.

> * It would well known to even kids in astrology that with Navami

> tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra - Sun CANNOT be in Mesha (Aries) - I

> hope you are above that status. In this scenario what is the use of

> mentioning some great 'Palatarium' software and uselessly trying to

> be authentic with an erroneous data?!! (which the auther of that

> article is doing)

> Note the bogus and erroneous argument in the following lines as

> well.

> ==>

> > The results indicated that this wasexactly the location of

> > planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram

was

> > born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years back).

> <==

> Note the following points -

> * If we consider the possible position of Vernal Equinox as per the

> indications given in Valmiki Ramayana - the same planetary position

> CANNOT repeat for at least 26000 years! So the usual argument such

> as 'the same planetary position may repeat after 1000 years or so'

> become useless in the case of Rama's horoscope. In Rama's

horoscope,

> the Sun is near equinox, and so if we look for a repeating similar

> planetary position it should be at least before 26000 years!

> * BC 10,5114 is NOT Treta Yuga but Dwapara Yuga - even as per the

> calculation of Yugas! ) Did you missed this point as well?

> It is very very clear that the document you supplied is a fool's

> document, who knew nothing about history or astronomy - as evident

> from the following words -

> ==>

> Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born

> 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas

Ram

> was born 7,000years back.

> <==

> And you still consider it as an authentic document! I thought you

> will have better and credible arguments! It would be a waste of my

> time to analyze this useless document in more detail. So i am

> stopping here itself. Any way, I expected something better from

you.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> astrology ,

HosabettuRamadas Rao

> <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > But I have another source which says the birth of Shri Rama has

> occured in a different birth and time.I am reproducing that

> information source for your information.

> > *Was Lord Ram Really Born?* We Indians are the products of one

> of the oldest civilisations. We need tobe really proud of our

ancient

> history and cultural heritage. However,during the British Rule, we

> developed an inferiority complex, whichadversely affected our quest

> to unearth facts relating to our glorious past.But our young and

> educated men and women, born and brought up in independentIndia,

are

> capable of unearthing the true facts and are confident enough

> toevaluate these objectively. Shri Ram being most basic to

> Indian " ethos " , it is necessary to know who isShri Ram? Was he

really

> born? If yes, when and where? As is believed bycrores of people did

> he really put his feet on the Indian territory

fromNorth to South,

> reducing the sufferings of mankind and ensuring victory ofgood over

> evil? Let us take a look at historical facts: The story of Shri

> Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in theRamayana,

> which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king ofAyodhya.

> Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made

> sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to the

> life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis zodiac

> constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to add

that

> similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in

> thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the planetary

> configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

given

> in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

> calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue

> Service had acquired thissoftware from the US. It is used to

predict

> the solar/lunar eclipses anddistance and location of other planets

> from earth. He entered the relevantdetails about the planetary

> positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki andobtained very

interesting

> and convincing results, which almost determine theimportant dates

> starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of hiscoming back

to

> Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in

> Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

Ram

> was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

> Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as

> Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

This

> data, was fed into the software. The results indicated that this

> wasexactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10,

> 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years

> back). As per theIndian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla

> Paksha in Chaitra month andthe time was around 12 to 1 noontime.

This

> is exactly the time and date whenRam Navmi is celebrated all over

> India.

Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained

> from severalbooks written by Indian and foreign authors before and

> after the birth ofChrist - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan,

Kalidasa's

> Raghuvansam, Baudh andJain literature, etc. These books have

narrated

> in great detail thelocation, rich architecture and beauty of

Ayodhya

> which had many palaces andtemples built all over the kingdom.

Ayodhya

> was located on the banks of theSaryu river with Ganga

and Panchal

> Pradesh on one side and Mithila on theother side. Normally 7,000

> years is a very long period during whichearthquakes, storms, floods

> and foreign invasions change the course ofrivers, destroy the

> towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore,the task of

> unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya hasshrunk

in

> size and the rivers have changed their course about 40

kmnorth/south.

> Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per

> ValmikiRamayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan

> (Sidhhashram). Fromthere he went to Mithila, King Janaka's kingdom.

> Here he married Sita afterbreaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers have

> gone along the route adopted byShri Ram as narrated in the Valmiki

> Ramayan and found 23 places which havememorials that commemorate

the

> events related to the life of Shri Ram. Theseinclude Shringi

Ashram,

> Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram,Janakpur (now in

> Nepal),

Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great menand not

for

> fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned

in

> Valmiki Ramayan's AyodhyaKand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to

make

> Shri Ram the king because Sun,Mars and Rahu had surrounded his

> nakshatra, and normally under suchplanetary configuration the king

> dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies.Dashratha's zodiac sign

 

was

> Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. Thisplanetary configuration

was

> prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it wason this day that

Shri

> Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was25 years old at

> that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in ValmikiRamayan

> which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left

Ayodhyafor

> exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of

war

> withKhardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile. It

is

> alsomentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle. When

> this data wasentered, the software indicated that there was a solar

> eclipse on October 7,5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen

from

> Panchvati. The planetaryconfiguration was also the same - Mars was

in

> the middle, on one side wereVenus and Mercury and on the other side

> were Sun and Saturn. On the basis ofplanetary configurations

> described in various other chapters, the date onwhich Ravana was

> killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ramcompleted

14

> years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was alsoNavami

of

> Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back

toAyodhya

> at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar, researched

> on places visited by Shri Ram duringhis exile, and sequentially

moved

> to the places stated as visited by ShriRam in the Valmiki Ramayan,

> starting from Ayodhya he went right uptoRameshwaram. He found 195

> places which still have the memorials connected tothe events

narrated

> in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram andSita. These

> include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur), BhardwajAshram

> (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram,

Markandaya Ashram

> (Markundi),Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari), Panchvati,

> Sita Sarovar, RamKund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari Ashram,

> Kishkindha (villageAnnagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple.

(The

> writer is a Commissioner of Income Tax posted at Delhi. The

> articlewill conclude on the Oped page on Monday) In Valmiki Ramayan

> it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed abridge over the

sea

> between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing thisbridge, Shri

Ram's

> army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures(reproduced

> here) on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of whichare

> lying submerged in Palk Strait between

Rameshwaram and Sri

> Lanka.Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire

to

> develop SitaVatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this was

> Ashok Vatika whereRavana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076 BC).

> Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the

Suryavansh

> and hewas the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other

> relevant particularsof previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka

> Itihas written about 80 yearsago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram. Professor

> Subhash Kak of Lousiana University,in his book, The Astronomical

Code

> of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63ancestors of Shri Ram who ruled

> over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have beentraced out as: Shri Ram,

> King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilipand so on. From

> Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat,everywhere

people

> believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence,particularly in the

> tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh andthe North-

> East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas revolvearound

> the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events and

> places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are truecultural

and

> social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste andcreed.

> Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to

> theperiod when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and

> Muslim orChristian faiths were unknown to the world. The words

Hindu

> (resident ofHindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were

> synonymous. India was

alsoknown as Bharat (land of knowledge) and

> Aryavarta (where Aryans live) andHindustan (land of " Hindus " -

> derived from word Indus). During Ram

Rajya, the evils of caste

system

> based on birth werenon-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is

stated

> to be of shudra class(scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him

as

> his adopted daughter aftershe was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and

Kush

> grew in his ashram as hisdisciples. We need to be proud of the fact

> that Valmiki was perhaps thefirst great astronomer and that his

study

> of planetary configurations hasstood the test of times. Even the

> latest computer softwares havecorroborated his astronomical

> calculations, which proves that he did notcommit any error. Shabari

> is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's army,which

> succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals

> fromCentral and South India. The facts,

events and all other

details

> relating tothe life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all the

> Indians includingscheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims,

> Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus

> Christ was born 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years

> back, whereas Ram was born 7,000years back. Hence, discovering the

> details relating to Shri Ram's life wouldbe lot more difficult as

> destruction caused by floods, earthquakes andinvasions etc., would

be

> far greater. But, should that stop our quest forlearning more about

> our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the

fact

> that the Indian civilisationis the most ancient civilisation today.

> It is certainly more than 10,000years old. Therefore, let us reject

> the story of Aryan invasion in India in1,500 BC as motivated

> implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creatorof this

theory

> had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the BritishRule,

we

> were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of

> thinkingwhich believed that everything Indian was inferior and that

> entire " Indianliterature was not worth even one book rack in

> England " .

If there weresimilarities in certain features of Indian

> people and people from CentralEurope, then automatic inference

drawn

> was that the Aryans coming fromEurope invaded India and settled

here.

> No one dared of thinking in any otherway. Therefore, there is

urgency

> for the historians and all otherintellectuals to stop reducing

Indian

> history to myth. There is need togather, dig out, search, unearth

and

> analyse all the evidences, which wouldthrow more light on ancient

> Indian civilisation and culture. There is need for the print and

the

> electronic media to take note of thesefacts and create atmosphere

> which would motivate our young and educatedyouth to carry out

> research and unearth true facts about the ancient

Indiancivilisation

> and wisdom and would also encourage them to put across theresults

of

> their research before the people fearlessly and with a sense

> ofpride! There is no need of great austerities or penances to

> worship the LordRamacandra, for He accepts even a small service

> offered by His devotee. ThusHe is satisfied, and as soon as He is

> satisfied, the devotee is successful.Indeed, Lord Sri Ramacandra

> brought all the devotees of Ayodhya back home,back to Godhead.

> (Spoken by Hanuman in Srimad bhagvatam)With best Regards,Ramadas

Rao.

> >

> >

> >

> > @: sreesog@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007

> 16:02:03 +0000 Re: Contextual

> meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Ramdas ji,You don't seem to have paid much attention to, or

> read the debateson Rama's chart going on in this group at all! If

you

> had you shouldhave well understood that the chart given in Ramayana

> is - note it anddon't miss it again -Rama's chart============* The

> Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are usingJHora

put -

> 156 Gregorian calendar for the year)The planatry details are as

> follows -* Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra* Moon in Cancer

(Own

> sign)* Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)* Sun in Pisces * Mercury in

Pisces

> (Debilitated)* Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)* Mars in Capricorn

> (Exalted)* Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)* Lagna - Not mentioned. Note

> that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus

> thestatement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes

> true. Bharata's Chart===============* Planetary position - same as

> above.* Nakshatra - Pushya * Lagna - Not givenLakshmana and

> Satrukhna======================= * Planetary position -

same as

> above.* Nakshatra - Aslesha* Lagna - Not givenNote that all the

> conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana getssatisfied. Note that

the

> charts match perfectly well with thedescription given in Valmiki

> Ramayana. Hope this helps.Love,Sreenadh

> ancient_indian_ <%40>

> astrology ,

HosabettuRamadas

> Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> You

have not

> understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama " s chart asdepicted by

> Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of birthetc.?>

With

> Regards,> Ramadas Rao> > > @:

sreesog@:

> Wed, 14 Nov 200704:50:39 +0000

Re:

> Contextualmeaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao

ji> >

>

> > > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are

living

> andwhat about the planetary movements and their acceleration in

> TretaYuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with

> precessionseconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to solve

> the rhythmof solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its

> significance.The ancient sages were far more intelligent and better

> that theillogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers

represent

> Solaryears, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and

> complementary toour current understanding of human history,

> archeology and evolution(of solar system, earth, life on earth) all

> such ideas becomeirrelevant. So one should try to understand

ancient

> concepts in tunewith out current knowledge and understanding. I

hope

> that clarifies mystand point. Now let us approach your question in

> anotherperspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga' is

> notapplicable to our current astrology then, we should even

> avoiddiscussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If it

is

> so,then why some so called guru of gurus is using such

> planetarypositions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet

> theories? Toquote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>>

> Pt.XXXXXX wasusing mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary

positions

> are same .And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa and

> arudhas andeven the life of sri ramji is > detail with this

data .So

> much exaltedplanets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his

excile

> to forest andthe curses he got ,even > how it was fructified tru a

> servant maid thehunchback > Mandara,and things like that and Venus

> exalted was showingthe> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted as

> 5th lord was showing >the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th from

> arudha lagna was > showingthe marital problems he faced .This was

the

> line of > discussionsgenerally i think .......<==Hope you will

have

> an answer. ==>> Howmany thousands of years have passed from

Treta

> Yuga to the > presentKali Yuga ? Do you think that all the planets

> have the same >movements or acceleration in the present Yuga

also ??

> Do you have >any reference regarding such planetary movements

during

> Krita >Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is clear

> that allthese questions become irrelevant in then light of

> clarificationsgiven above. :)Love,Sreenadh---

> Inancient_indian_ <In%

40>

> astrology ,

HosabettuRamadas

> Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I

have a small

> queryregarding your main question itself.At present which in which

> Yuga weare living and what about the planetary movements and

> theiracceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years have

> passedfrom Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think that

> all theplanets have the same movements or acceleration in the

present

> Yugaalso ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary

> movementsduring Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?Because I

> have no ideaof planetary movements in those great Yugas.> Regards,>

> Ramadas Rao.>> > @:

sreesog@: Tue, 13

Nov

> 2007 13:51:01+0000 Re:

Contextual

> meaning of theword " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal

ji> > >

>

> > Dear Goelji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish etc.

 

> Please do notloose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I was

> astonished tosee these statements!!! Read carefully the statement

of

> me which youare talking against! ==>> Do you think that either the

> poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun

will

> move 4signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and

> brothers tookbirth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a simple

> word withoutanything wrong associated with and I was not addressing

> anyone inparticular but was speaking about the subject! Actually I

> don'tbelieve that none of the possible author's of that text cannot

> be thatfoolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this

simple

> fact.(i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He

was

> agreat scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other

> poet:If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book

> likeRamayana, he is never going to commit this

mistake.Interpolator:

> Ifsomeone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in

> Sanskrit,and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be

> intelligent enoughto maintain the constancy. Thus the conclusion -

> What ever the periodof the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am

> asking you to simplepossibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our part

in

> understanding it andinterpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)

> ==================If Lagna meansSign and Kuleera means

then, " " Sarpe

> Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhuditaaravo " - get translated

as " Lekhmana

> and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in

> Capricorn Sign " - and everypieces of the puzzle fall in right

places

> & for sure we startappreciating the intelligence and knowledge of

the

> poet. See this as afact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)

> ===============================IfKuleera means Capricorn

> then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhudite ravo " - get

translated

> as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun

was

> in Cancer Sign " . I failed to see,how it coherently integrates the

> pieces of the puzzle, without makingus question the intelligence

and

> knowledge of the poet. Please correctme if I am wrong. That was why

> my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to saythat Lekhmana and Satrukhna

were

> born 4 months > after the birth ofRama and Bharata? Or> * Do you

> think that either the poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough

to

> believe that Sun will move 4signs in a single day (if it > is

assumed

> that rama and brothers tookbirth in consecutive days)<==I was

simply

> asking you to clarify yourview - regarding this issue. And I

thought

> that you have an answer tothis question. And that is why I said -

" I

> sincerely believe that youwill have a clear solution to suggest for

> this problem " . I don'tbelieve, I have committed any sin or mistake

in

> my earlier mail!Actually your previous mail didn't addressed this

> question - and youwere hastily making the statement - " Why are you

> using such words likefoolish etc. Please do not loose your cool and

> temper and that too.... " Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji, what

> is this? I respectyou and we are doing simple academic discussion -

> let us sincerelylook into the possibilities.Love and

regards,Sreenadh-

> -- Inancient_indian_ <In%

40>

> astrology ,

Gopal Goel

> <gkgoel1937@>wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become

exited too

> soon. Why are youusing such words like foolish etc. Please do not

> loose your cool andtemper and that too for proving > something

which

> you believe is rightand others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is

> incarnation of GOD, AND ITDOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED ON

> THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYANGIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND TEACHING.THE

> RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA ISA GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE INSPIRATION IN

> OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> Ifyou also view Lord Shri Rama in the same

> light, some worthwhilediscussion is possible among

> ourselves,otherwise at least I do notwish to join such

discussions.>

> In astrology ,Kuleer means only cancer. Ravao is appearing

separately

> in the Sloka. This may have twoindications:> 1. Sign Cancer was

> rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was risingwith Sun in dignity i.e. at

Noon

> time> As namkaran sanskar of all thefour brothers had taken place

> simultaneously after the appearance ofLORD RAMA ON THE EARTH, THE

> LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> ANDLOGICAL.> Kindly advise,>

>

>

> > G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> NEW

DELHI-110

> 076> INDIA > > > > ----- Original Message---->

Sreenadh

> <sreesog@>> To:ancient_indian_

> <%40>

> astrology >

 

> Tuesday, 13 November,2007 12:59:08 PM>

> Re: Contextualmeaning of the

> word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji>

>Dear Rao ji &

Goal

> ji,> I could see that both of you are of theopinian that

" Kuleera "

>

> means " Cancer Sign " as used in ValmikiRamayana. Interesting! Let

us

>

> for argument sake accept that it meansCancer sign itself - in >

> Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify myfollowing doubt. The sloka

>

> given in Valmiki Ramayana is " SarpeJatastu Saumitri Kuleera

abhudite

> > Ravo " - as per your meaning thesloka would get transilated >

> as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born inAslesha Nakshatra when Sun

>

> was in Cancer " ! Now the questions -> * Doyou mean to say that

> Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > afterthe birth of Rama

> and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poetor the

> interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move4

> signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and

brotherstook

> birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely believethat

> you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem.

>Love,>

> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com,Gopal

> Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear

Friends,> > Mr. Raois a

> great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is

> toguide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> >

Sloka

> onthe birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to >

> twopossibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.>

> 2 Sign

> Cancerwas rising and Sun was placed in most prominent >

position ,i.e

> NOON>> As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was performed

> >simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> >

> Lakshamanand Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra >

when

> Cancer wasrising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> >

Ph: 09350311433> >

> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA >

> > > > > >

> > -----Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao

> <ramadasrao@ ...>>> ancient_indian_ astrology@

.

com>

> > Monday, 12November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE:

> [ancient_indian_ astrology]Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To

> Finn ji> > > > Dear Finn Ji,> >As per my knowledge you

are

correct.As

> per Brihajjataka, Yavana >Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka

Rashi.>

> > karkaHkuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho >

> vihitaschadhaatuH.......This shloka is from Yavana Jataka.Meaning

>

> karkataka Rashi islike the shape of KulIraakruti which is in >

> water,kalapurusha' schest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative of >

> Dhatu sign orRashi,also indicative of well,river and watery land.>

>

> I hope thishelps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> >

> > > > > > >

>

> > > To:ancient_indian_ astrology> >

> sreesog@> > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' -

> ToFinn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us

consider your

> majorarguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as

Capricorn is

> also farfetched, to > > > say the least, since all the

astrological

> textsdescribe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That

is simply your

> ignorance- many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with in

> detail - andclarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could

> mean 'Capricorn'.To convince you, I will provide a> > details

quotes

> and referencesfrom them in the next post. > > ==>> > >

If you are

> using " Lagna " forsigns, then you cannot help placing > >

> five

> planets of Bhagwan Ramain Karkata, since this is what> > > the

ninth

> sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > > >

> svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshukarkate lagne vakpatav induna > >

>

> saha " > > <==> > This too issimply ignorance. The

sloka bit

> means " (Rama took birth)> > inPunarvasu Nakshatra, while 5

planets

> where in own house or> >exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon in

> Cancer sign " . Two things> >should be noted here -> > 1)

To denote

> Cancer sign the word Karkata isused (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2) There

too

> the word " Lagna " means " Sign " itself. Note that>

> " karkate lagne

> vakpatav induna saha " means " InCancer SIGN Jupitor > was>

> with

> Moon " > > ==>> > > Secondly, wecannot overlook the

fact

that " Adyatma

> Ramayana " , > which > > > yousays was written in Kerala,

contains

the

> following shlokas> > <== > >There is more than one

ignorance in

your

> statements. Let see what> >they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana

is

NOT

> a text written in Kerala.It is - " an> > ancient Sanskrit work

> extolling the spiritual virtuesof the story > of> > Ramayana. It

> comprises around 4200 verses, isembedded in > Brahm & #257;nda>

>

> Purana and is considered to beauthored by Ved Vyasa " - wikipedia.>

 

>

> (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Adhyatma_

Ramayana)> > 2) What is

> popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDEDTRANSILATION of> > Adyatma

Ramayana

> written by Tunjattu RamanujanEzhuttacchan who is> > known as

> the 'father of malayalam language' agreat scholar. > > 3) We are

NOT

> discussing Adhyatma Ramayana butVALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't

bring

> in irrelevant quotes in between.Note that while Valmiki> > Ramayana

> does not mention Madhu masa etcAdhayata Ramayana does it.> > Note

> that while Valmiki Ramayana tellsus that the birth took place > in>

>

> the 12th (Nakshatra) Month fromthe end date of Putra kameshti,> >

> Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that ithappened at the 10th month. So >

> with> > this much inconsistenciesbetween these two texts -

Adhyatma

>

> Ramayana> > quote is NOT worthconsidering while

discussing " Astrology

> in > Valmiki> > Ramayana " . Itis clear that you are bringing

in the

> Adhyatma > ramayana> > quoteonly because it mentions your

pet " Madhu

> Masa " in it - but > that> >is irrelevant to the current

context.

> Please try to depend ONLY ON> >references from Valmiki Ramayana

alone

> while discussing the same. > >4) I am not interested in your habit

> and inconsistent nature in> >studying subject and introducing

> diversions. So I don't have any >time> > to waste after the quote

 

and

> inconsistencies you presentedregarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana

> quote. Again it simply means that Ihave > wasted> > enough time

on

> the ignorance of " TropicalCalendarvalas " . > > Note:

So learn to be

> sincere and be truthful -and if clarity comes> > in from some where

> learn to welcome it †" and if possible drop the> >

fanatism and

> use of bad words. You aredragging me to the same> > direction â

€ "

> `I know only to deal withbad with bad and good with > good'> > â

€ "

> so the end result wouldbe the group becoming a mud house and I> >

> don't want it. So pleaseavoid name calling here onwards and me too>

>

> will never resort to it.Let us keep the group clean and sane. >

> People> > has already startedcomplaining about the insane useless

> direction > in> > which thisgroup is going - both you and me are

> culprits for the > same.> >Please know it as a fact. > >

Regards,>

>

> Sreenadh> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> com, " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > ><jyotirved@ ..>

wrote:> > >> > > Shri

> Sreenadh ji,> > > Namaskar!> > >You are talking of an event

of

second

> century BCE. The Surya > > >Sidhanta, which gives the mothodology

 

of

> calculating " lagna " was > > >very much in vogue then.

When you are

> using the word Lagna in the > >> context of planetary positions

vis-

a-

> vis some horoscope/birth >chart, > > > it is unimaginable that

 

> instead of the commoninterpretation of > the > > > word

Lagna i.e.

> the sign rising at aparticular time, > > > the

" astrologer "

concerned

> would have resortedto some other > meaning > > > of that word!

He

> could very well haveused the word " rashi " > instead > >

> of Lagna

> then.> > > Secondly, tointerpet Kuleera as Capricorn is also far

> fetched, > to > > > say theleast, since all the astrological

texts

> describe it as > > > Karkata!>> > Then you are also

ascribing

> a " misprint " or some problem > > >

with " Sandhi " for the

> word " abyudyete ravav " and interpreted it > as > >

>the description

> of Mars in Capricorn! That also is far fetched!> > > >>

> If you

are

> using " Lagna " for signs, then you cannot help placing >>

> five

> planets of Bhagwan Rama in Karkata, since this is what the >> >

ninth

> sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > >

> >svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshu karkate lagne vakpatav induna >

>

> >saha " Here you can club the words as " panchasu graheshu

karkate >

>

> >lagne, vakpatav induna saha " and interpret them as " five

planets >

>

> >were in Karkata rashi, which included the Moon and Jupiter " . You

>

>

> >cannot interpret " lagna " as sign in one place and at the

same >

time

> >> > as lagna i.e. aschendant in another place in one and the

same

>

> >> chapter.> > > > > > The maximum difficulty that

arises out of

> thishypothesis is that > in > > > second century BCE, there

was

> nomethodology of calculating > planets > > > correctly,

whether it

> wasIndia or any other country! India, on > the > > >

other hand,

> wassaddled with the Surya Sidhanta, which is > > > fundamentally

the

> mostincorrect work. So it is just a > possibility > > > that

> theastrologer concerned could have calculated the planetary > >

> >positions as per the Surya Sidhanta and then implanted them in >

the

> >> > Valmiki Ramayana! Those calculatons can give very surprising

>

>

> >results!> > > > > > Secondly, we cannot overlok the

fact

> that " AdyatmaRamayana " , > which > > > you says

was written in

Kerala,

> contains thefollowing shlokas> > > " madhumasse site pakshe

navmyam

> karkate shubhe>> > punarvasu sahite uchasthe grahapanchake>

> >

> mesham pooshanisamprapte pushpavrishti samakule aviraseej jagan > >

>

> nathah parmatmasanatanah " (1/3/14-15)> > > > > > A

running

> translation of theseshlokas is> > > " In the month of Madhu,

shukla

> paksha --brighthalf--in navmi > tithi > > > and punarvasu

nakshara,

> when five planetswere exalted, the sun > was > > > in Mesha,

the

> Eternal Lord of theworlds, Parmatma, > incarnated.. .. " > >

> > > >

>

> > > 1. Here the sunhas specifically been put in Mesha but at the

>

> same > > > time it isMadhu masa -- which is an astronomical

> impossibility!> > > > > > 2.Five planets are

exalted but there is

no

> mention that any > planet > >> is in its own rashi..> >

> > > > 3.

> Though there is no menion ofKarkata lagna or the Moon in > > >

> Karkata, but if the Sun is in Meshaand it is Navmi tithi, it >

means

> > > > that even if the sun is in 1degree of Mesha the Moon has to

 

be

> > at a > > > distance of more than96 degrees from the same.

Thus

the

> Moon > will > > > be in Karkata 7degrees to Karkata 19

degrees. But

> then Punarvasu > > > nakshatraranges from Mithuna 20 degrees to

> Karkata 3-20. Thus it > > > is againan astronomical impossibility.>

 

>

> > > > > In short, whichever way youlook at it, whether it is

the

> Valmiki > > > Ramayana or the AdyatmaRamayana, the astronomical

Rashi

> position > > > of the planets cannotbe justifed at all!> >

> With

> regards,> > > AKK> > > > > > ---

Inancient_indian_ astrology@

> . com, " Sreenadh " > > ><sreesog@>

wrote:> > > >> > > >

> Dear Finn ji,> > > > The root (dhatu)for the word 'Lagna' is

'Lag'

> which means> > > > join/conjunct/mix/combine. 'Lagati' or

'Lagitam'

> means " the > one > > > that> > >

>joins/conjuncts/

mixes/combines " .

> There are many words that > sprung> > > from> > >

> this root. Look

> at the following word -> > > > " Lagna MandalaH " - it

means the same

> as " Rasi Chakra " and means> > > >'Zodiac'. > >

> > Mandala = Chakra

=

> Circle> > > > Lagna = Rasi =Sign> > > > Lagna

Mandala means 'Sign

> Circle' and 'Rasi Chakra' also >> > means 'Sign> > >

> Circle' or

in

> other words both are other namesfor the > Ecliptic, > > >

the> > >

>

> zodiac circle. The word 'LagnaMandala' you can find in any > > >

> standard> > > > Sanskritdictionary. Thus it is evident that

the

> word 'Lagna' > can> > > >means 'Sign'. Now coming to

Nirukti, the

> word 'Lagna' has the> > > >following Nirukti -> > >

> 'Lagati

GrahaiH

> iti Lagna' meaning 'the onewhich> > > > join/conjunct/

mix/combine

> with Planets is called Lagna';> certainly > > > the> >

> > word

lagna

> here refers to 'Sign' becauseit is when the planets > > >

joins> >

>

> > (traverse through) signsthat the results originate. Thus every >

>

> > sign> > > > means'Lagna'. > > > >

Another Nirukti for the word

> Lagna is 'Lagati Phalaiiti Lagna'> > > > meaning 'the one

which

> join/conjuct/ mix/combine (orin other > words> > > > shows)

with

the

> results is called Lagna'; herethe word 'Lagna' > can> > > >

refer

> either to 'Sign' or to 'Asc'. > >> > Later the the word

'Lagna' got

a

> better and clear definition > > >such as> > > >

'Raseenam Udayo

> Lagna' meaning the 'the rising sign iscalled > > > Lagna'.>

> > >

> Note that here also the word lagna isessentially associated > with

>

> > > the> > > > word 'Sign', but stillit is due to importance

to the

>

> word 'rising'> > > > that it gottranslated as 'Asc'. Of course

 

since

> the at the > > > horizon,> > > >the sky and the earth

joins and so

> the word 'Lagna' is apt here > too>> > > and that is why

the

> translation of this word as 'Ascendant' > >> acceptable. >

> > >

Note

> that when used interchangeably with thewords Arudha (as > > >

done>

>

> > > in Prasnamarga) , the word 'Lagna'loses all its association >

 

> with> > > > 'rising sign' even today, andresort to the old

> meaning 'Sign'!> > > > Further there are many Lagnassuch as

'Ghati

> Lagna', 'Hora > Lagna',> > > > 'Bhava Lagna', 'SreeLagna',

'Arudha

> Lagna' etc some of which > are > > > NOT> > > > AT

ALLrelated

> to 'rising' or 'horizon' in any way. Therefore > in > > >such>

> >

>

> contexts to translating the word 'Lagna' as 'Asc' becomes> > >

> erroneous.. > > > > Considering all these points it

becomesclear

that

> accepting the> > > > meaning 'Sign' for the word 'Lagna'

in'Valmiki

> Ramayana' > context > > > is a> > > > truly

acceptableargument,

well

> supported by Nirukti and > > > Dictionaries.> > >

>Hope this helps.

>

> > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > >

> > > --- Inancient_indian_

> astrology, " Sreenadh " > > >

><sreesog@> wrote:> >

>

> > >> > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > >

The niruktiand dictionary

quotes

> which gives the > > > meaning 'Sign' to> > > >

>the word 'Lagna' I

> will provide - please wait for the next > post. > >> Now>

> > > >

> coming to your next argument -> > > > > ==>> >

> > > >However, even

> if we agree for the sake of argument that > lagna > > >means

> > >

>

> > > sign, how do you say that the sun was in Mina sinceit has >

> >

> very > > > > > > clearly been stated " kuleere

abyuditeravav " i.e.

> when the > sun > > > was > > > > > > in

Kuleera i.e.Karkata Rashi!

> Thus even if we take the sun > of > > > > > >

BhagwanRama in Mina

> instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana > > > and > > >

>> >

> Shatrugana could not be in Karkata in any case.> > > > >

<==> > >>

>

> It is already answered in a previous mail to Kaul ji. But I > >

> >will> > > > > re-state it here. > > > >

> " kuleere abyudite ravav "

> Itcould be a simple sandhi mistake > > > of a> > > >

>

missing 'aa'.

> Andthe correct reading could be " kuleere> > > > >

> abyuditaraavav " ,meaning " Mars (aara) was in Capricorn > >

>

> (Kuleera) " .> > > > > Notethat the meaning of the word

Kuleera is

> given in Sanskrit> > > > >Nikhandus as " Kuleero Nakra

Karkatau "

> meaning " The word > Kuleera > >> is> > > > >

used for Capricon and

> Cancer " . The auther of Hridyapadha> vyakhya > > > of>

> > > >

> Brihajjataka clearly quotes manyreferences from various > > >

> Nikhandus and> > > > > argues that themeaning Capricorn for

the

word

> Kuleera is > also > > > very> > > > >popular.

Note that this solves

> all the confusion and shows > that > >> apart> > >

> > from the

> position of Ju & Mo in Cancer the textprovides the > > >

position>

>

> > > > of Many other planets as well.For example it is clear from

>

> the> > > > > description given alongwith Bharata's

Nakshatra that

Sun

> and > > > Mercury> > > > > are inPisces, and from

the one given

along

> while giving the > > > Nakshatra>> > > > of

Lakshmana and Satrukhna

> that Mars is in Capricorn! So it >> > becomes> > > >

> clear that

all

> those brothers are born inconsecutive days, > and > > >

also> > > >

>

> that the poet didn't gavethe Asc of any of them - but only > the>

>

>

> > > planetary position. >> > > > Love,> > >

> > Sreenadh> > > > > >

>

> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology,

" Avtar >

> Krishen > > >Kaul " > > > > >

<jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > >

> > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com,

" Sreenadh " >

>

> > > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>

>

> > > > >Namaskar!> > > > > > From your curent

post, it appears that

> both of usagree > that > > > the > > > > > >

astrological

references

> in theValmiki Ramayana are > > > concoctions > > > >

> > since the

> planetarypositions appear to have been for a > period > > > of

> >

>

> > > >second century BCE.> > > > > > However,

you have also said> >

>

> > > >> > > > > > <4) While describing the

Nakshatra of Bharata

> thestatement > > > given is> > > > > >

" Pushye jatastu bharato

> MeenaLagne Prasanna Dhee " should be> > > > > >

translated

to " Bharata

> wasborn in Pushya Nakshatra, and at > > > that > > >

> > > time Sun

> & Mercury was in the Sign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > > >

means > > >

>

> >> Sign - as per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit >

dictionaries

>

> >> and > > > > > > Nirukti of the word Lagna too

clearly support

> thismeaning > of > > > the > > > > > > word

Lagna) ->> > > > > > >

>

> > > >> I do not agree with you here since no astrologer,

howevr > >

> >useless or > > > > > > ignorant he/she may be or

might have been

> wouldbe unaware > of > > > the > > > > > >

fact that lagna means a

> signascending at the time of > > > birth/event. > > >

> > > There

is

> aproecedure for calculating the same in the Surya > > > Sidhanta

>

>

> >> > > also, even if that is the most inaccuate astronomical

work.

>

> >> The > > > > > > complete sholka is " Pushye

jatastu Bharato,

> Minalagne > > > > > > prasannadheeh, sarpe jatatavtu

saumitri,

> kuleereabyudite > > > ravav " --> > > > > >

1/18/15> > > > > > > > >

>

> > > Thusaccording to me Mina Lagna means Mila langa! However, >

> >

> even > > >> > > if we agree for the sake of argument

that lagna

means

> sign, > >> how do > > > > > > you say that the

sun was in Mina

since

> it hasvery clearly > > > been > > > > > >

stated " kuleere abyudite

> ravav " i.e. when the sun was in > > > Kuleera > > >

> > > i.e.

Karkata

> Rashi!Thus even if we take the sun of Bhagwan > > > Rama in >

> > >

>

> > Minainstead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana and Shatrugana > >

>

> could not> > > > > > be in Karkata in any case. >

> > > > > The

names

> ofnakshatras are very clear i.e. Shri RAm was > born > > > in

> > >

>

> >> Aditi-Daivata i.e. Punarvasu (ii) Bharata in Pushya and >

(iii->

>

> >iv)> > > > > > Lakshmana and Shatrugana in

" Sarpi " i.e. Ashlesha.

> Theyare > > > in a > > > > > > sequence, but if

the sun of

Lakshamana

> andShatrugana is in > > > Karkata, > > > > > >

who are younger by

> justtwo days, the sun of Shri Ram and > > > Bharata > >

> > > >

> cannot beeither in Mina or Mesha!> > > > > > > >

> > > > Thus

> whichever way welook at it, there certainly has been > a > > >

> >

>

> manipulation ofplanetary positions in the Valmiki Ramayana.> > >

>

>

> > With regards,>> > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul> >

> > > > >> > > > >

>

> > Dear Kaul ji,>> > > > > > ==>> > >

> > > > > ii) The planetary

> position of BhagwanRam as given in > the > > > > > >

Valmiki > > >

>

> > > > > Ramaya was " implanted " in that work by some

" jyotishi " > of

>

> > > either > > > >> > > > that period or a

later one!> > > > > > >

> <==> > > > > > >Exactly! Not only the horoscope

but the whole

> Ramayana is > > > re-> >> > > > written>

> > > > > > by 'Brhamanic

> priests' supported by Sungadynasty - is > the > > >

correct> > > >

>

> > > argument. (And not byJyotishis). Thus the currently >

> >

> available> > > > > > > 'BrahmanicRamayana' (Why

insult sage

Valmiki)

> is clearly > > > the work > > > >> > of>

> > > > > >

some 'brahmanic

> poet' who lived after BC 157, whotook a > > > planetary> >

> > > >

>

> position known to him and ascribedit to Rama!! > > > > >

> > ==>> >

>

> > > > > > Since 157 BC is an eraof recorded history without

any > >

>

> > > > obscurity, we > > > > > >> > do not

have any such records

that

> a divine incarnation > > > cameinto > > > > > >

> > existence then,

> especially since it is after theBudha-> > > Avtar and > >

> > > > >

>

> after the advent of Maya themlechha into India!> > > > >

> > <== >

>

> > > > > > You are absolutelyright! And that is why it is

said >

that -

> > > > it is> > > > > > >just the imagination

of the poet who wrote

> this poem in > the > > >recent> > > > > >

> past. He just took

> some samples from the recent> history > > > known to> >

> > > > >

him

> and manipulated the tocreate a long poem - that > > > fulfills

his>

>

> > > > > > purpose. Idon't have any disregard for the

'Brahmnic >

> poet' > > > who > > > > >> knew> > >

> > > > what he was doing -

but

> I feel pity for the peoplewho > > > mistook to> > > >

> > >

represent

> actual history, andbelieve that Monkey men > with a > > >

tail> > >

>

> > > > lived inrecent past and also that Sanskrit as used in >

> >

> Ramayana> > > > >> > existed in the period of those

monkey

people. )

> > > > > > > >==>> > > > > > >

> Even here, you are using " J Hora "

for

> 157 BC whenall > we > > > had at > > > > > >

that > > > > > > > >

> point of timei.e. 157 BC by way of astronomical bibles > > > was

the

> > > > > > > >> Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha

as given in the >

> Pancha > > > >> > Sidhantika!> > > > >

> > <== > > > > > > > Kaul

ji,

> that is notthat important - since the poet who > > > wrote>

> > > >

>

> > Ramyanais not that accurate in describing the charts - > not >

>

>

> that > > >> > > he is> > > > > > >

not giving any longitudes but

only

> describesa planetary > > > position > > > > > >

of> > > > > > > BC

> 157. Hegives the position of ALL THE PLANETS and > > >

mentions

>

> > > > > >that> > > > > > > it was

Punarvasu Nakshatra and that the

> Tithi wasNavami. > No > > > great> > > > > >

> astronomical

knowledge

> isnecessory to mention this much, > and> > > > > >

> therefore

> anysoftware will do. Further JHora most of > the > > > >

> >

> peoplein> > > > > > > this group is having and they

can verify the

> planetary> > > position > > > > > > using>

> > > > > > that. > >

>

> > > > >If you are bewildered by the statement that " ALL

THE > > >

> PLANETSARE> > > > > > > MENTIONED " , then here

goes the

> clarification:> > > >> > > 1) Thiti Navami,

Nakshatra Punar vasu -

> clearly stated> > > > >> > 2) Ju, Ma in Cancer -

clearly stated.> >

>

> > > > > 3) 5 planets inown house or exaltation - statement not

> >

>

> clear.> > > > > > > Thencomes the interesting part

-> > > > > > >

4)

> While describing theNakshatra of Bharata the > statement > > >

 

given

> > > > > > > is> > > >> > >

" Pushye jatastu bharato Meena Lagne

> Prasanna Dhee " should > be>> > > > > >

translated to " Bharata was

> born in Pushya Nakshatra, and >at > > > that > > >

> > > time> > >

>

> > > > Sun & Mercury was in theSign Pisces " !! (Since

Lagna > means

>

> > > Sign - > > > > > > as> > >> >

> > per the usage in Ramayana;

The

> Sanskrit dictionaries and > > >Nirukti of> > > > >

> > the word

Lagna

> too clearly support thismeaning of the > word > > > > >

> Lagna) ->

>

> > > > > > Thus theposition of Sun and Mercury are clearly

stated!>

>

> > > > > > 5) Whiledescribing the Nakshatra of Lakshmana and

> > >

> Satrukhna it is> > > >> > > said that the Nakshatra

is Aslesha and

> also that " Kuleere> > > >> > >

Abhuditeaaravo " means " Arra (Mars)

was

> in Capricon > > >(Kuleera) " !! > > > > >

> Which> > > > > > > is

> exact! Thus it becomesclear that our confusion > > > about 'Sun

in>

>

> > > > > > Cancer' wasjust because of a Sandhi problem!! -

Thus the

>

> > > position > > > > >> of> > > > >

> > Mars is clearly stated! > >

>

> > > > > 6) Thus whatremains is the position of Sa and Ve -

which >

>

> > as per > > > > > >the> > > > > >

> given Tropical chart of 14

March

> 157 BC becomes >clarified. > > > Sa is in> > > >

> > > Aquarius and

> Ve is in Taurus! >> > > > > > Thus the poet knew well

what he is

> speaking about - the >> > confusion> > > > > >

> till date

regarding

> this planetary positionbeing caused > by > > > our> >

> > > > >

> ignorance and lack of effortto understand the facts! > > > >

> >

>

> Love,> > > > > > > Sreenadh>> > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Avtar >

> > Krishen

>

> > > > > > Kaul " > > > > > >>

<jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > >

>

> > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>> > > > > >

> Namaskar!> > > > > > > >

> <Calculate the planetaryposition for 14 March -156 > > >

(Gregorian>

> > > > > > > > Calendar);9.15 PM approx in JHora;

and you will see >

> what > > > I > > > > > >mean. The> > >

> > > > > Horoscope matches

> well with the descriptionin > Ramayana.>> > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

>

> > My dear Sreenadhji, youare making really a fool of > > >

yourself

> by > > > > > > such > > > >> > >

> comments!> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > All you are trying toprove is that the planetary >

position >

>

> > of > > > > > > > >Bhagwan Rama, as given in

the Valmiki Ramayana,

> is the > > > planetary> > > > > > > >

position of March 14, 157 BC.

> Obviously, this leads to> > > two > > > > > >

> > conclusions: > >

>

> > > > > > 1) EitherBhagwan Ram was born on that date i.e.

March >

14,

> > > > 157 > > > > >> BC at > > > >

> > > > 9-15 PM> > > > > > > >

or>

> > > > > > > > ii)The planetary position of Bhagwan

Ram as given in

>

> the > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > >

> > Ramaya was " implanted " in

that

> work by some " jyotishi " > of > > > either > >

> > > > > > that

period

> or a laterone!> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > Since 157 BC is an

era

> of recrodedhistory without any > > > > > > obscurity, we

> > > > >

>

> > > do nothave any such records that a divine incarnation > >

>

came

> into > > >> > > > > existence then, especially

since it is after

the

> Budha-> > >Avtar and > > > > > > > >

after the advent of Maya the

> mlechha intoIndia!> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > Thus all you are

> proving withyour astrological > knowledge > > > and > >

> > > >

> latest > > > > > >> > astronomical softwares is

that some uselss

and

> foolish > > >jyotishi > > > > > > has > >

> > > > > > implanted the

> planetaryposition of March 14, 157 BC > into > > > the >

> > > > >

>

> > ValmikiRamayana just to make even that divine > incarnation >

> >

>

> > > > >subservient to planetary suzarinity!> > > >

> > > > > > > >

>

> > > >Even here, you are using " J Hora " for 157 BC when

all > we > >

>

> hadat > > > > > > that > > > > > >

> > point of time i.e. 157 BC by

> wayof astronomical bibles > > > was the > > > > >

> > > Surya

> Sidhanta ofMaya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha > > >

> > >

> Sidhantika!> > >> > > > > And as is an open

secret, that is the

most

> useless > > >astronomical > > > > > > work >

> > > > > > > by

someone

> who did notknow even ABC of astronomy, so > much > > > so >

> > > >

>

> that > > >> > > > > he did not have any knowledge

of precession

> either!> > > > >> > > QED/QEF> > > >

> > > > With regards, > > > >

>

> > > > AKK> > > >> > > > > >

> ancient_indian_ astrology@

> . com, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > >

> <sreesog@> wrote:> > >

>

> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > >

>

> > > Calculate theplanetary position for 14 March -156 > > >

 

> (Gregorian> > > > > > > > >Calendar); 9.15 PM

approx in JHora; and

> you will see > > > what I > >> > > > mean. >

> > > > > > > The> > >

>

> > > > > > Horoscope matcheswell with the description in

> > >

> Ramayana. > > > > > > > > > Let uslook at the

core argument of Kaul

> ji -> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > >

> >> > > > iii) The sun could

never

> be in Mesha -- whether the > so > > >> > > called

> > > > > > > >

> sayana> > > > > > > > > > or the socalled

nirayana --- if it was

> Madhu Masa > > > i.e. the > > > > > > >>

first > > > > > > > > > >

> month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time ofbirth of > > > Bhagwan

> >

>

> > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > <==

> > > >> > > > > I am yet to see

any

> reference in so called Valmiki > > >Ramayana > > > >

> > which> > >

>

> > > > > > states that 'Rama's birthtook place in Madhu

Masa'; > I >

>

> > hope > > > > > > Kaul ji> > > >

>> > > > will come up with

relevant

> quote from the same > text. ;=) > >> > > > Actually

> > > > > > > >

> if> > > > > > > > > we read throughRamayana we

could easily see

that

> the > > > birth > > > > > > took > >>

> > > > > place> > > > > > >

>

> > BEFORE the advent of Vasanta Ritu.> > > > > > >

> > Also note

that

> the meaning 'Sign(Rasi)' for the > >> word 'Lagna' > > >

> > > is

a>

> > > > > > > > > very popular one, andthe original

one. The Nirukta

>

> > > defenition > > > > > > of > > >

>> > > > the> > > > > > > > >

> word 'Lagna' itself means 'Sign (Rasi)'and not Asc, > > > even

> >

>

> > > > though > > > > > > > > the> >

> >> > > > > second meaning

> became popular later. > > > > > > > > > Andso

the conclusion - who

> ever made up this text -> > > was > > > > >

>> > describing> > > >

>

> > > > > a recent planetary position which waswell known to

> him ->

>

> > > > > > > > possibly > > > > > >

> > a> > >> > > > > > planetary

> position of some king in his own period, > and >> > that is

> > > >

>

> > why> > > > > > > > > Ramayana is a

mereliterary text, and NOT a

> divine > one. > > > > > > > > > ==>>

> > > >> > > > > If some parts

> of it seems to be confusing,> > > > > > > >

>> anachronistic,

> interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > may > > >>

> > better

to>

> > > > > > > > > > simply wait and make

furtherinvestigations into >

> the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > >

<==> > > > >> > > > I agree -

but

> is it not that these discussions itself > > > is> > >

> > > part of

>

> > > > > > > > the> > > > > > >

> >investigations into the

subject?

> > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > >

> > >> > > You have come up with some

> relevant questions > > > regarding >> > > > >

> > Ramayana's> > > >

>

> > > > > > description of thehoroscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If >

>

> > > > > possible > > > > > >> > it

> > > > > > > > > > may be a

good

> idea to compare thesehoroscope-> > > descriptions > >

> > > > to >

>

> > > > > > > > >similar descriptions from other

texts.. > > > > > >

>

> > > <==> > > > >> > > > Yes, I agree -

and our field is wast -> > >

>

> > > > > >Nirayana Astrology - Rishi Horas & Tantric

texts> > > > >

>

> > > >Sayana/Tropical Astrolology - Vedic literature, > Epics,

> > >

>

> > >Puranas > > > > > > > > etc > >

> > > > > > > There is lot

> ofunprocessed, non-scrutinized data > > > around, and > >

> > > >

we

> > >> > > > > > can> > > > > >

> > > do much; though our studies -

> whetherthe conclusions > > > agree > > > > > >

with> > > > > > > >

>

> popularnotions and beliefs or not. > > > > > > >

> > ==>> > > > >

>

> > > > >The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of >

the > >

>

> birth >> > > > > and > > > > > > >

> the> > > > > > > > > >

> horoscopes ofboth Rama and Krishna. I

have seen > this > > > > > >

> description> > >> > > > > > > myself. Why

not compare the

description

> from > Ramayana> > > with > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > one> > >

>

> > > > > > >given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or

are > there

>

> > > > > > >> differences?> > > >

> > > > > > This may actually

> provide us withsome new and > > > relevant > > > >

> > > >

> information.> > > > > > >> > <==>

> > > > > > > > I agree - quote

and

> proceed. But remember onething - > > > our > > > >

> > major> > > >

>

> > > > > concern in thesediscussions is 'Astrology in Valmiki

> > >

>

> > > Ramayana' > > > > > >> > (and> >

> > > > > > > not merely the

> horoscope of Rama), and letus not > forget > > > the > >

> > > >

main

> > > > > > > > > area> > > >> >

> > > of study, while dealing with

> diversions. At the end > of > >> our > > > > >

> study, > > > > > >

>

> > for> > > > > > > > > suresome useful and

systematic material

should

> come > > > up. We > > >> > > > > will

> > > > > > > > > preserve

> and present it - as abackground for further > > > > > >

> >

> investigations> > > > > > > > >into other

areas. :=)> > > > > > > >

>

> Love,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -

--

> In ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Finn >

> >

> Wandahl " > > > > > > > > ><finn.wandahl@

> wrote:> > > > > > > > >

>>

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr.Sreenadh & Mr.

Kaul,> > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > Perhapsone should not draw too

hasty conclusions >

>

> > regarding > > > > > >the > > > > >

> > > origin> > > > > > > > >

>

> of the Ramayana. If someparts of it seems to be > > >

confusing,> >

>

> > > > > > > >anachronistic, interpolated or

manipulated, then it >

>

> > may > > > >> > better to> > > > >

> > > > > simply wait and make

> furtherinvestigations into > the > > > subject.> >

> > > > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > > > > You have come up with some

relevant questions > >

> >regarding > > > > > > > > Ramayana's> >

> > > > > > > >

description

> ofthe horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > > > > >

> possible > >

>

> >> > > > it may> > > > > > > > >

> be a good idea to compare

> thesehoroscope-descripti > ons > > > to > > >

> > > similar> > > >

>

> > > >> > descriptions from other texts. > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > >> > The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of

> the >

>

> >birth > > > > > > and > > > > > >

> > the> > > > > > > > >

> >horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna.

I have seen > this > > > > >

> >description> > > > > > > > > > myself.

Why not compare the

> descriptionfrom > Ramayana > > > with > > > > >

> the > > > > > > >

>

> one> > > >> > > > > > given in Garga

Samhita? Are they similar or

are

> > there >> > > > > > > differences?>

> > > > > > > > > This may

> actuallyprovide us with some new and > > > relevant > >

> > > > >

> >information.> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > :-)> > > > >

>

>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Finn>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > >

ancient_indian_ astrology@

> , " Sreenadh " > > > > > >

> > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> >

>

> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >

> > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > > > > > > > >

>

> > ==>> > > >> > > > > > > > The

best option, therefore, is that we

> must > admit >> > that > > > > > > these>

> > > > > > > > > > >

> astrologicalcombinations in the Ramayanas are > > > later

day> > >

>

> > > > > > > >> interpolations > > > >

> > > > > > > <==> > > > > >

>

> > > > > Thenwhy don't with a better spirit accept that >

> > the >

>

> > > > > whole> > > > > > > >

ramayana> > > > > > > > > > > itself

is

> a made up textcreated between 2nd BC > and > > > 2 > >

> > > >

AD?

> > > > > > > >> With the> > > > >

> > > > > > numerous dereference

to

> Buddha & Jainreligions, > > > > > > Ardhasastra >

> > > > > > >

(of>

> > > > > > > >> > > Vishnugupta) etc and

other numerous facts, I >

> believe > > >that > > > > > > it > > >

> > > > > is clear> > > > >

>

> > > > > > thatit is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD

> > >

for

> > > > > > >sure - > > > > > > >

> or better> > > > > > > > > > > in

> 2AD in Sungaperiod itself. > > > > > > > > >

> > There is no wonder

> that theastrological > reference > > > in > > > >

> > > > Ramayana

> is> > > > >> > > > > > utterly wrong and

seems to be made up and in

> the > > >line of > > > > > > all > > >

> > > > > the> > > > > > > >

>

> > >Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly > > >

superstitions. > >

>

> > >> Actually > > > > > > > > that>

> > > > > > > > > > only can

> beexpected from such a text that is NOT > AT > > > ALL >

> > > > >

>

> >written by> > > > > > > > > > > sage

Valmiki, but possibly by

> somestupid > brahmins > > > of > > > > > >

sunga > > > > > > > >

> period.>> > > > > > > > > > What else do

you think can be expected

> from such >a > > > text?!!> > > > > > >

> > > > So I will request

you

> to betteraccept the fact > > > that - > > > > >

> The > > > > > > >

>

> whole> >> > > > > > > > > Ramayana itself

is a made up text - a

text

> > created> > > with a > > > > > > > >

purpose -> > > > > > > > > >

>

> createdbetween 2nd century BC and 2nd century > AD. > > > Even

the>

>

> > > > >> > > > > astronomical references in it

is going in the >

same

> > > > >> > direction. > > > > > > >

> If there> > > > > > > > > > >

> WAS aValmiki Ramayana prior to the currently > > > available >

> >

>

> > >one (as> > > > > > > > > > >

referenced in Mahabharata) , then

> thattext is > buried > > > in > > > > > >

dept > > > > > > > > by

> the> > >> > > > > > > > political and

religious fanatics who had a

>

> purpose >> > and > > > > > > wanted > >

> > > > > > to> > > > > > >

>

> > > >project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by > >

> calling >

>

> > > >> Buddha > > > > > > > > a

thief> > > > > > > > > > > and

> massmurdering Buddists. It was the hall make > of > > > that

> > >

>

> > >era > > > > > > > > (BC 200> > >

> > > > > > > > to AD 200),

> andevident from many other literary > > > works as > > >

> > > > >

> well.> > > > > > > > > > > So instead of

going against astrologers -

 

> how >> > about > > > > > > going > > >

> > > > > against> > > > > >

>

> > > >> and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures >

who > > >

> in a >> > > > > > > futile> > > > >

> > > > > > effort to spread

> Animalkilling, and brahmin > > > projecting, > > > >

> > Yaga> > >

>

> > > > >> > > services, - rewrote all the good old

ancient > scripts

>

> > > and> > > > > > even > > > > >

> > > tried to> > > > > > > > > >

>

> steeland accommodate even the non-vedic > > > astrological >

> > >

>

> >signs > > > > > > > > also into> > >

> > > > > > > > scripts

> thatpropagated such vedic rituals? Isn't > it > > > that >

> > > >

>

> > >Ramayana is> > > > > > > > > > >

also a clear proof of the same?

>

> > >> > > > > > > > I believe - this would be

more logically > >

> >acceptable > > > > > > path, > > > >

> > > > with> > > > > > > > >

>

> >enough evidence in support. > > > > > > > >

> > > Endnote:

> Ramayanais a made-up text. Not at all > > > > > >

authentic. > > >

>

> > > > >Giving it> > > > > > > > >

> > importance more than a simple

> literarywork is > > > ignorance. > > > > > >

Rama > > > > > > > >

is

> god> > >> > > > > > > > or not is

irrelevant in an academic

> discussion of > a> > > made > > > > > > up

> > > > > > > > text

like>

> > > > > > > > > >> Ramayana. Ramayana is a

text which is NOT

written

> > by > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > >

> > for sure> > > > > > > > > >

> > - he cannot besuch a corrupted, full of > partiality > >

> and >

>

> > > > > hatred> >> > > > > > > >

> influenced, ignorant individual.

> Sage Valmiki was >a > > > great> > > > > >

> > > > > knowledgeable

> sage as evident fromYoga Vasishta, > > > and > > > >

> > > >

> ascribing the> > > > > > > >> > >

authorship of a text like

currently

> available > > > Ramayana on> > > > > > him >

> > > > > > > is a> >

>

> > > > > > > > > SIN, and aninsult of that great

sage. > > > > > > >

>

> > > > I wil better adoptthis line of thinking. > > >

> > > > > > >

>

> Love,> > > > > > > > > >> Sreenadh>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

 

>

> > > > > > > >ancient_indian_ astrology@

.

> com, " Avtar > > > > > > > >Krishen

Kaul " > > > > > > > > > > >

> <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> >

> >> > > > > > > > > > > >

Shri

> Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > > > >>

Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > > >

> <I request you to look in to thefollowing > > > argument and

> > >

>

> > > > > > > > > possibilities ->>> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > On the other hand Ireqeuswt all of you to >

ponder > > >

on

> the > > > > > > > > following> > > >

> > > > > > > > facts, even if

> they are unpleasant:> > > > > >> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

1.

> The Valmiki Ramayana issupposed to be Aadi > > > Mahakavya >

> > >

>

> > > > i.e. the > > > > >> > > > >

> > very first Mahakavya (Epic)

of

> Indian history > and > >> > > > Maharshi > >

> > > > > > Valamiki >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > isknown as Aadi Kavi.>

> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > 2.The Mahabharata is a

much later work.> > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >

> > > > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to

have

> incarnated > much > > >> > > earlier > > >

> > > > > than > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > BhagwanKrishna.> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > 4. ShriKrishna is supposed to have incarnaed > > >

much > > >

>

> > > earlier >> > > > > > > than> >

> > > > > > > the > > > > > > >

>

> > > > >Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE> >

> > > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > A few

million dollar questions are:> > >

>

> > > > >> > > > a) We do not find any Mesha etc.

Rashis or > Mangal

>

> > >Shani > > > > > > etc.> > > > >

> > > > planets > > > > > > > >

>

> > >> in the VJ> > > > > > > > > >

> > b) We do not find any Mesha

> etc.Rashis in the > > > > > > Mahabharata> > >

> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > >> > > > > > > c) We do not find any

Mesha etc. Rashis or any >

>

> >Mangal > > > > > > Shani > > > > >

> > > etc. > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas > prior > > >

to the >

>

> >> > > > > Surya > > > > > > > >

> > > > Sidhanta of the

> PanchaSidhantika!> > > > > > > > > >

> > The questions arising out

of

> thesefacts are:> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > i )

How

> comewe find the horoscopic details of > > > Bhagwan > >

> > > >

> Rama,> > >> > > > > > Bharata, > > >

> > > > > > > > > Shatruna and

> evenLakshamana in the Valmiki > > > Ramayana?> > > >

> > > > > > >

>

> > > >> > > > > > > > > ii) How come in

spite of the best efforts of

>

> all >> > the > > > > > > > > astronomers

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> nobody hasbeen able to reconcile the > > > irreconcilable >

> > > >

>

> facts > >> > > > > > that if > > > >

> > > > > > > > Bhagwan Rama

was

> born inSun in Mesha and Moon > in > > > > > > Karakta

in > > > > >

>

> > > > >> > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been

> > >

Navmki

> > > > >> > tithi > > > > > > > >

or vice-> > > > > > > > > > > >

> versa?> > >> > > > > > > > > iii) The

sun could never be in Mesha --

 

> whether > >> the so > > > > > > called> >

> > > > > > > sayana > >

>

> > > > > > >> > > or the so called nirayana ---

if it was Madhu >

Masa

> > > > i.e.> > > > > > the > > > >

> > > > first > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > month ofthe Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth > of > > >

> > >

> Bhagwan > > > >> > > > Rama.> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

 

>

> > > > iv)Thesun of the younger brothers could never > >

> have been

>

> > > > > > in> > > > > > > > Karkata

> > > > > > > > > > > > if the

> sun of BhagwanRama was in Mesha or even > > > Mina!> > >

> > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >

In a nutshell, the more we try to

> reconcile > these > >> > > > > > irreconcilable

> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > facts, the more wewill be making a laughing > stock > > >

of > >

>

> > > > > > ourselves!>> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

 

> The best option,therefore, is that we must > admit > > > that

> > >

>

> > > these > > >> > > > > > > > >

astrological combinations in the

> Ramayanas are > > >later day > > > > > > >

> > > > > interpolations

> by some good fornothing > > > overzealous > > > >

> > > >

astrologers

> who > > > > > >> > > > > > did not

know even this much of astronomy

> that > if > > >the sun > > > > > > of >

> > > > > > > Bhagwan > > >

>

> > > > > > > > >Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina)

it could > never

>

> > > have > > >> > > been > > > > >

> > > in > > > > > > > > > > > >

> Karkata justafter two days in the case of His > > > siblings!>

> >

>

> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >

> > > > > I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT

JUST

> FOR THIS FACT> THAT > > > WE DO > > > > > >

NOT > > > > > > > >

HAVE

> A > > > > > >> > > > > > HOROSCOPE OF

BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR

HIM

> HAS > > > > >> INCREASED > > > > > >

> > SINCE IT > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > MEANSTHAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA > > >

KARTUM > >

>

> > > > > >SAMARTH AND > > > > > > >

> > > > > NOT SUBJECT TO

> PLANETARYSUZARINITY!> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> And thetail-piece of all this haranguing is > that > > > it

> > > >

>

> > means> > > > > > > > clearly > > >

> > > > > > > > > that Rishis

> likeValmiki nad the Veda Vayasa > etc. > > > did not> >

> > > > > >

> >believe in > > > > > > > > > > > >

any pedictive gimmicks either.>

>

> >> > > > > > > > > With regards,> >

> > > > > > > > > > Avtar

> KrishenKaul> > > >> > >> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Invite your mail

> contactsto join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces. It's

> easy! Tryit! > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to

save as many mails

as

> you wish.To know > how, go to > http://help.

/

> l/in//mail/mail/ tools/tools- 08.html> >> >

> > > > 5,

50,

> 500, 5000 -Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go

> tohttp://help.

> <tohttp://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools->

> /l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-

> 08.html> >> > > > >

> >________>

 

> Discoverthe new Windows Vista>http://search.

> <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?>

msn.com/results.aspx?

> q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE> > > >

> > > >

> ________>

Invite

> your mail contacts to join your friends list with WindowsLive

Spaces.

> It's easy!>http://spaces. <http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?>

> live.com/spacesapi.aspx?

> wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx & mkt=en-us>

 

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Discover the new Windows Vista

> > http://search.

> <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en->

> msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-

> US & form=QBRE

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Jaswal ji,

You said:

==>

> I am just suggesting that perhaps we should be more open minded in

> our thinking whilst interpreting the Slokas …….

<==

Lol...Actually that was what you have seen when the word 'Lagna' is

interpreted as 'Sign' and 'Kuleera' as Capricorn. So I should better

suggest it to you - you should better learn to be a bit more open

minded coming out of your current fanatism.

==>

> Insofar as the " Naming " ceremony goes I was stressing that All 4

> Brothers were named 12 Days After the birth of Shri Ram as in one

> of your earlier emails you had suggested Bharat + other brothers

> may have been born almost a year After Shri Ram.

<==

I have a simple question - What DO YOU KNOW about the naming

ceremony and the muhurta fixing related to it, and what are your

references? Tell us. So that we can be more sure, how you arrive at

this YOUR SELF, instead of parroting the idea you got from some where

else. May be that is the way we should look into this 'Naming

ceremony issue' as you puts it.

 

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Ram Jaswal "

<rkjaswal wrote:

>

> Namaste Sreenadh ji

>

> Though I agree with you insofar that Nakshatras are usually

referred to

> Lunar placement one shouldn't disregard the possibility of being

Asc as

> well. Are you inferring that there may Not have been any knowledge

of Rising

> sign (Asc) during Treta yuga? Please don't think I am " peddling "

these

> thoughts just to get around the fact that " Sun can't be in Aries

> simultaneously whilst Moon is in Punarvasu Nakshatras " – I am just

> suggesting that perhaps we should be more open minded in our

thinking whilst

> interpreting the Slokas …….

>

> Insofar as the " Naming " ceremony goes I was stressing that All 4

Brothers

> were named 12 Days After the birth of Shri Ram as in one of your

earlier

> emails you had suggested Bharat + other brothers may have been

born almost

> a year After Shri Ram.

>

> Best wishes …….

>

> Jai Sita Ram

>

> Ram

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of

Sreenadh

> 16 November 2007 07:23

>

> Re: Contextual meaning of the

word

> " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

>

> Dear Jaswal ji,

> ==>

> > rather than ......... thinking that the

> > Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

> > more sense in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

> <==

> NO - because there was no such convention or tradition in ancient

> india, as we could clearly see understand from ancient astrological

> classics. Nakshatra means " Nakshatra in which Moon is placed " ; If

the

> poet had followed some unconventional path, definitely he must have

> mentioned it. He never does it, means he was referring to the

normal

> Nakshatra system.

> ==>

> > if the Naming ceremony was conducted 11 days After

> <==

> That is normal - for Kshetriyas the naming ceremony should be done

> in the 12th day (what kind of day - you clarify) as per Smritis.

The

> same may have been followed there as well.

> So neither your suggestion is applicable nor it solves anything.

> Regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> astrology , " Ram Jaswal "

> <rkjaswal@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Sreenadh ji + list members

> >

> > May I suggest that rather than get " bogged " down with thinking

that

> the

> > Nakshatras mentioned for the Births are Lunar – wouldn't it make

> more sense

> > in treating them as Birth Asc Nakshatras instead?

> >

> > After all from Valmiki Ramayana if the Naming ceremony was

> conducted 11 days

> > After Shri Ram's Birth then doesn't it make more sense that Shri

> Ram's Birth

> > Nak was Punarvasu whilst Bharat's was Pushyami and Lakshmana and

> Satrukhna

> > was Ashlesha? This wouldn't then contradict Any Tithi's mentioned

> per

> > Planetary placements.

> >

> > Trusting this explanation helps in clearing up any confusion in

your

> > understanding of the text (?) …….

> >

> > Best wishes and regards …….

> >

> > Jai Sita Ram

> >

> > Ram

> >

> > _____

> >

> > ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> astrology

> > [ancient_indian_

> <%40>

> astrology ] On Behalf Of

> Sreenadh

> > 15 November 2007 09:30

> > ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> astrology

> > Re: Contextual meaning of the

> word

> > " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> >

> > Dear Ramdas ji,

> > There was no need for such a long but providing 'nothing new'

mail.

> > Look at this statement:

> > ==>

> > The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi

> Valmiki

> > in theRamayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as

the

> > king ofAyodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he

has

> > made sequentialastronomical references on important dates related

> to

> > the life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

> > zodiac constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless

to

> > add that similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not

repeated

> in

> > thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the

planetary

> > configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

> given

> > in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> > corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

> > calendar can be known.

> > Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

> > Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> > different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> > (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> > Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

> > Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna

as

> > Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> > (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

> > <==

> > Note the following points -

> > * From the primary reference, i.e. Valmiki Ramaya itself, we now

> > know well about the sloka, planetary configuration and

> possibilities.

> > * It would well known to even kids in astrology that with Navami

> > tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra - Sun CANNOT be in Mesha (Aries) -

I

> > hope you are above that status. In this scenario what is the use

of

> > mentioning some great 'Palatarium' software and uselessly trying

to

> > be authentic with an erroneous data?!! (which the auther of that

> > article is doing)

> > Note the bogus and erroneous argument in the following lines as

> > well.

> > ==>

> > > The results indicated that this wasexactly the location of

> > > planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram

> was

> > > born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years back).

> > <==

> > Note the following points -

> > * If we consider the possible position of Vernal Equinox as per

the

> > indications given in Valmiki Ramayana - the same planetary

position

> > CANNOT repeat for at least 26000 years! So the usual argument

such

> > as 'the same planetary position may repeat after 1000 years or

so'

> > become useless in the case of Rama's horoscope. In Rama's

> horoscope,

> > the Sun is near equinox, and so if we look for a repeating

similar

> > planetary position it should be at least before 26000 years!

> > * BC 10,5114 is NOT Treta Yuga but Dwapara Yuga - even as per the

> > calculation of Yugas! ) Did you missed this point as well?

> > It is very very clear that the document you supplied is a fool's

> > document, who knew nothing about history or astronomy - as

evident

> > from the following words -

> > ==>

> > Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born

> > 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas

> Ram

> > was born 7,000years back.

> > <==

> > And you still consider it as an authentic document! I thought you

> > will have better and credible arguments! It would be a waste of

my

> > time to analyze this useless document in more detail. So i am

> > stopping here itself. Any way, I expected something better from

> you.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > ancient_indian_ <%

> 40>

> > astrology@grou <astrology%40> ps.com,

> HosabettuRamadas Rao

> > <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > > But I have another source which says the birth of Shri Rama has

> > occured in a different birth and time.I am reproducing that

> > information source for your information.

> > > *Was Lord Ram Really Born?* We Indians are the products of one

> > of the oldest civilisations. We need tobe really proud of our

> ancient

> > history and cultural heritage. However,during the British Rule,

we

> > developed an inferiority complex, whichadversely affected our

quest

> > to unearth facts relating to our glorious past.But our young and

> > educated men and women, born and brought up in independentIndia,

> are

> > capable of unearthing the true facts and are confident enough

> > toevaluate these objectively. Shri Ram being most basic to

> > Indian " ethos " , it is necessary to know who isShri Ram? Was he

> really

> > born? If yes, when and where? As is believed bycrores of people

did

> > he really put his feet on the Indian territory fromNorth to

South,

> > reducing the sufferings of mankind and ensuring victory ofgood

over

> > evil? Let us take a look at historical facts: The story of Shri

> > Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in

theRamayana,

> > which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king

ofAyodhya.

> > Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made

> > sequentialastronomical references on important dates related to

the

> > life of Shri Ramindicating the location of planets vis-a-vis

zodiac

> > constellations and theother stars (nakshatras). Needless to add

> that

> > similar position of planetsand nakshatras is not repeated in

> > thousands of years. By entering theprecise details of the

planetary

> > configuration of the important events inthe life of Shri Ram as

> given

> > in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named " Planetarium "

> > corresponding exact dates of these events according to theEnglish

> > calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue

> > Service had acquired thissoftware from the US. It is used to

> predict

> > the solar/lunar eclipses anddistance and location of other

planets

> > from earth. He entered the relevantdetails about the planetary

> > positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki andobtained very

> interesting

> > and convincing results, which almost determine theimportant dates

> > starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of hiscoming back

> to

> > Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded

in

> > Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight andnine (1/18/8,9) that Shri

> Ram

> > was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month whenthe position of

> > different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations andnakshatras

> > (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii)

> > Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi)

> > Lunarmonth of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna

as

> > Cancer(cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu

> > (Geminiconstellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

This

> > data, was fed into the software. The results indicated that this

> > wasexactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January

10,

> > 5114 BC.Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7121 years

> > back). As per theIndian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla

> > Paksha in Chaitra month andthe time was around 12 to 1 noontime.

> This

> > is exactly the time and date whenRam Navmi is celebrated all over

> > India. Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained

> > from severalbooks written by Indian and foreign authors before

and

> > after the birth ofChrist - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan,

> Kalidasa's

> > Raghuvansam, Baudh andJain literature, etc. These books have

> narrated

> > in great detail thelocation, rich architecture and beauty of

> Ayodhya

> > which had many palaces andtemples built all over the kingdom.

> Ayodhya

> > was located on the banks of theSaryu river with Ganga and Panchal

> > Pradesh on one side and Mithila on theother side. Normally 7,000

> > years is a very long period during whichearthquakes, storms,

floods

> > and foreign invasions change the course ofrivers, destroy the

> > towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore,the task of

> > unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya hasshrunk

> in

> > size and the rivers have changed their course about 40

> kmnorth/south.

> > Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per

> > ValmikiRamayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan

> > (Sidhhashram). Fromthere he went to Mithila, King Janaka's

kingdom.

> > Here he married Sita afterbreaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers

have

> > gone along the route adopted byShri Ram as narrated in the

Valmiki

> > Ramayan and found 23 places which havememorials that commemorate

> the

> > events related to the life of Shri Ram. Theseinclude Shringi

> Ashram,

> > Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram,Janakpur (now in

> > Nepal), Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great menand not

> for

> > fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned

> in

> > Valmiki Ramayan's AyodhyaKand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to

> make

> > Shri Ram the king because Sun,Mars and Rahu had surrounded his

> > nakshatra, and normally under suchplanetary configuration the

king

> > dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies.Dashratha's zodiac sign

> was

> > Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. Thisplanetary configuration

> was

> > prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it wason this day that

> Shri

> > Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was25 years old

at

> > that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in

ValmikiRamayan

> > which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left

> Ayodhyafor

> > exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of

> war

> > withKhardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile. It

> is

> > alsomentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle.

When

> > this data wasentered, the software indicated that there was a

solar

> > eclipse on October 7,5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen

> from

> > Panchvati. The planetaryconfiguration was also the same - Mars

was

> in

> > the middle, on one side wereVenus and Mercury and on the other

side

> > were Sun and Saturn. On the basis ofplanetary configurations

> > described in various other chapters, the date onwhich Ravana was

> > killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ramcompleted

> 14

> > years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was alsoNavami

> of

> > Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back

> toAyodhya

> > at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar,

researched

> > on places visited by Shri Ram duringhis exile, and sequentially

> moved

> > to the places stated as visited by ShriRam in the Valmiki

Ramayan,

> > starting from Ayodhya he went right uptoRameshwaram. He found 195

> > places which still have the memorials connected tothe events

> narrated

> > in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram andSita. These

> > include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur),

BhardwajAshram

> > (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram

> > (Markundi),Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari),

Panchvati,

> > Sita Sarovar, RamKund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari

Ashram,

> > Kishkindha (villageAnnagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple.

> (The

> > writer is a Commissioner of Income Tax posted at Delhi. The

> > articlewill conclude on the Oped page on Monday) In Valmiki

Ramayan

> > it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed abridge over the

> sea

> > between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing thisbridge, Shri

> Ram's

> > army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures(reproduced

> > here) on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of whichare

> > lying submerged in Palk Strait between Rameshwaram and Sri

> > Lanka.Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire

> to

> > develop SitaVatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this

was

> > Ashok Vatika whereRavana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076

BC).

> > Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the

> Suryavansh

> > and hewas the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other

> > relevant particularsof previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka

> > Itihas written about 80 yearsago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram.

Professor

> > Subhash Kak of Lousiana University,in his book, The Astronomical

> Code

> > of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63ancestors of Shri Ram who

ruled

> > over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have beentraced out as: Shri

Ram,

> > King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilipand so on. From

> > Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat,everywhere

people

> > believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence,particularly in

the

> > tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh andthe North-

> > East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas

revolvearound

> > the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events

and

> > places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are truecultural

> and

> > social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste andcreed.

> > Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to

> > theperiod when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and

> > Muslim orChristian faiths were unknown to the world. The words

> Hindu

> > (resident ofHindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were

> > synonymous. India was alsoknown as Bharat (land of knowledge) and

> > Aryavarta (where Aryans live) andHindustan (land of " Hindus " -

> > derived from word Indus). During Ram Rajya, the evils of caste

> system

> > based on birth werenon-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is

> stated

> > to be of shudra class(scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him

> as

> > his adopted daughter aftershe was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and

> Kush

> > grew in his ashram as hisdisciples. We need to be proud of the

fact

> > that Valmiki was perhaps thefirst great astronomer and that his

> study

> > of planetary configurations hasstood the test of times. Even the

> > latest computer softwares havecorroborated his astronomical

> > calculations, which proves that he did notcommit any error.

Shabari

> > is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's

army,which

> > succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals

> > fromCentral and South India. The facts, events and all other

> details

> > relating tothe life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all

the

> > Indians includingscheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims,

> > Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus

> > Christ was born 2,000 yearsback. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600

years

> > back, whereas Ram was born 7,000years back. Hence, discovering

the

> > details relating to Shri Ram's life wouldbe lot more difficult as

> > destruction caused by floods, earthquakes andinvasions etc.,

would

> be

> > far greater. But, should that stop our quest forlearning more

about

> > our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the

> fact

> > that the Indian civilisationis the most ancient civilisation

today.

> > It is certainly more than 10,000years old. Therefore, let us

reject

> > the story of Aryan invasion in India in1,500 BC as motivated

> > implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creatorof this

> theory

> > had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the

BritishRule,

> we

> > were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of

> > thinkingwhich believed that everything Indian was inferior and

that

> > entire " Indianliterature was not worth even one book rack in

> > England " . If there weresimilarities in certain features of Indian

> > people and people from CentralEurope, then automatic inference

> drawn

> > was that the Aryans coming fromEurope invaded India and settled

> here.

> > No one dared of thinking in any otherway. Therefore, there is

> urgency

> > for the historians and all otherintellectuals to stop reducing

> Indian

> > history to myth. There is need togather, dig out, search, unearth

> and

> > analyse all the evidences, which wouldthrow more light on ancient

> > Indian civilisation and culture. There is need for the print and

> the

> > electronic media to take note of thesefacts and create atmosphere

> > which would motivate our young and educatedyouth to carry out

> > research and unearth true facts about the ancient

> Indiancivilisation

> > and wisdom and would also encourage them to put across theresults

> of

> > their research before the people fearlessly and with a sense

> > ofpride! There is no need of great austerities or penances to

> > worship the LordRamacandra, for He accepts even a small service

> > offered by His devotee. ThusHe is satisfied, and as soon as He is

> > satisfied, the devotee is successful.Indeed, Lord Sri Ramacandra

> > brought all the devotees of Ayodhya back home,back to Godhead.

> > (Spoken by Hanuman in Srimad bhagvatam)With best Regards,Ramadas

> Rao.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > @: sreesog@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007

> > 16:02:03 +0000 Re: Contextual

> > meaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Ramdas ji,You don't seem to have paid much attention to,

or

> > read the debateson Rama's chart going on in this group at all! If

> you

> > had you shouldhave well understood that the chart given in

Ramayana

> > is - note it anddon't miss it again -Rama's chart============*

The

> > Tropical Chart for 14th Marth Nov 157 BC (If you are usingJHora

> put -

> > 156 Gregorian calendar for the year)The planatry details are as

> > follows -* Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra* Moon in Cancer

> (Own

> > sign)* Jupitor in Cancer (Exalted)* Sun in Pisces * Mercury in

> Pisces

> > (Debilitated)* Satrun in Aquarius (Own sign)* Mars in Capricorn

> > (Exalted)* Venus in Taurus (Own Sign)* Lagna - Not mentioned.

Note

> > that 3 planets are in own sing and 2 planets exalted. Thus

> > thestatement 5 planets are either in own sign or exalted becomes

> > true. Bharata's Chart===============* Planetary position - same

as

> > above.* Nakshatra - Pushya * Lagna - Not givenLakshmana and

> > Satrukhna======================= * Planetary position - same as

> > above.* Nakshatra - Aslesha* Lagna - Not givenNote that all the

> > conditions mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana getssatisfied. Note that

> the

> > charts match perfectly well with thedescription given in Valmiki

> > Ramayana. Hope this helps.Love,Sreenadh--- In

> > ancient_indian_ <%

40>

> > astrology@grou <astrology%40> ps.com,

> HosabettuRamadas

> > Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> You have not

> > understood what I wrote.Ok, simply Lord Rama " s chart asdepicted

by

> > Mahasrhi Valmiki, can we arrive at the chart,date of birthetc.?>

> With

> > Regards,> Ramadas Rao> > > @:

sreesog@:

> > Wed, 14 Nov 200704:50:39 +0000

> Re:

> > Contextualmeaning of the word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji>

>

> >

> > > > Dear Ramdas ji,==>At present which in which Yuga we are

living

> > andwhat about the planetary movements and their acceleration in

> > TretaYuga ?<==Understand clearly that if not associated with

> > precessionseconds or if not a mere mathematical hypothesis to

solve

> > the rhythmof solar system riddle - the Yuga number lose all its

> > significance.The ancient sages were far more intelligent and

better

> > that theillogical people who believe that the Yuga numbers

> represent

> > Solaryears, millions of years!!! If not in tune with and

> > complementary toour current understanding of human history,

> > archeology and evolution(of solar system, earth, life on earth)

all

> > such ideas becomeirrelevant. So one should try to understand

> ancient

> > concepts in tunewith out current knowledge and understanding. I

> hope

> > that clarifies mystand point. Now let us approach your question

in

> > anotherperspective.If those planetary movement in 'Treta Yuga' is

> > notapplicable to our current astrology then, we should even

> > avoiddiscussing or even considering it as astrology at all. If it

> is

> > so,then why some so called guru of gurus is using such

> > planetarypositions to prove his new born instant coffee like pet

> > theories? Toquote a member who wrote in some other forum - ==>>

> > Pt.XXXXXX wasusing mercury in Taurus .The other > planetary

> positions

> > are same .And he discuses various dasas like > even Moola dasa

and

> > arudhas andeven the life of sri ramji is > detail with this

> data .So

> > much exaltedplanets and the avtara hood > of lord ram and his

> excile

> > to forest andthe curses he got ,even > how it was fructified tru

a

> > servant maid thehunchback > Mandara,and things like that and

Venus

> > exalted was showingthe> greatness of seetha ji and mars exalted

as

> > 5th lord was showing >the Valiant sons and Venus was in 12th from

> > arudha lagna was > showingthe marital problems he faced .This was

> the

> > line of > discussionsgenerally i think .......<==Hope you will

have

> > an answer. ==>> Howmany thousands of years have passed from

> Treta

> > Yuga to the > presentKali Yuga ? Do you think that all the

planets

> > have the same >movements or acceleration in the present Yuga

> also ??

> > Do you have >any reference regarding such planetary movements

> during

> > Krita >Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?<==I believe it is

clear

> > that allthese questions become irrelevant in then light of

> > clarificationsgiven above. :)Love,Sreenadh---

> > Inancient_indian_ <In%

> 40>

> > astrology@grou <astrology%40> ps.com,

> HosabettuRamadas

> > Rao<ramadasrao@> wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I have a small

> > queryregarding your main question itself.At present which in

which

> > Yuga weare living and what about the planetary movements and

> > theiracceleration in Treta Yuga ? How many thosands of years have

> > passedfrom Treta Yuga to the present Kali Yuga ? Do you think

that

> > all theplanets have the same movements or acceleration in the

> present

> > Yugaalso ?? Do you have any reference regarding such planetary

> > movementsduring Krita Yuga,Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga etc.?Because

I

> > have no ideaof planetary movements in those great Yugas.>

Regards,>

> > Ramadas Rao.>> > @: sreesog@: Tue, 13

> Nov

> > 2007 13:51:01+0000 Re:

> Contextual

> > meaning of theword " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >

>

> >

> > > Dear Goelji,==>> Why are you using such words like foolish etc.

> > Please do notloose > your cool and temper and that too ....<==I

was

> > astonished tosee these statements!!! Read carefully the statement

> of

> > me which youare talking against! ==>> Do you think that either

the

> > poet or theinterpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun

> will

> > move 4signs in a single day > (if it is assumed that rama and

> > brothers tookbirth in consecutive > days) <== Foolish is a simple

> > word withoutanything wrong associated with and I was not

addressing

> > anyone inparticular but was speaking about the subject! Actually

I

> > don'tbelieve that none of the possible author's of that text

cannot

> > be thatfoolish, they should be intelligent enough to see this

> simple

> > fact.(i.e. Sun cannot move 4 signs in a single day) Valmiki : He

> was

> > agreat scholar, and he will never commit this mistake.Some other

> > poet:If some one could write beautiful poetical scholarly book

> > likeRamayana, he is never going to commit this

> mistake.Interpolator:

> > Ifsomeone could write such a so genuinely looking slokas in

> > Sanskrit,and if he was doing it with a purpose, he must be

> > intelligent enoughto maintain the constancy. Thus the conclusion -

 

> > What ever the periodof the text, THE SLOKAS MUST BE RIGHT! I am

> > asking you to simplepossibility. The mistake SHOULD BE in our

part

> in

> > understanding it andinterpreting it. Possibility -1 (Me)

> > ==================If Lagna meansSign and Kuleera means

> then, " " Sarpe

> > Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhuditaaravo " - get translated

> as " Lekhmana

> > and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Mars was in

> > Capricorn Sign " - and everypieces of the puzzle fall in right

> places

> > & for sure we startappreciating the intelligence and knowledge of

> the

> > poet. See this as afact.Possibility -2 (You and Rao ji)

> > ===============================IfKuleera means Capricorn

> > then, " " Sarpe Jatastu Saumitri Kuleeraabhudite ravo " - get

> translated

> > as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were bornin Aslesha Nakshatra when Sun

> was

> > in Cancer Sign " . I failed to see,how it coherently integrates the

> > pieces of the puzzle, without makingus question the intelligence

> and

> > knowledge of the poet. Please correctme if I am wrong. That was

why

> > my doubt - ==>> * Do you mean to saythat Lekhmana and Satrukhna

> were

> > born 4 months > after the birth ofRama and Bharata? Or> * Do you

> > think that either the poet or theinterpolator was foolish >

enough

> to

> > believe that Sun will move 4signs in a single day (if it > is

> assumed

> > that rama and brothers tookbirth in consecutive days)<==I was

> simply

> > asking you to clarify yourview - regarding this issue. And I

> thought

> > that you have an answer tothis question. And that is why I said -

> " I

> > sincerely believe that youwill have a clear solution to suggest

for

> > this problem " . I don'tbelieve, I have committed any sin or

mistake

> in

> > my earlier mail!Actually your previous mail didn't addressed this

> > question - and youwere hastily making the statement - " Why are

you

> > using such words likefoolish etc. Please do not loose your cool

and

> > temper and that too.... " Who is losing temper?!! Dear Goal ji,

what

> > is this? I respectyou and we are doing simple academic

discussion -

> > let us sincerelylook into the possibilities.Love and

> regards,Sreenadh-

> > -- Inancient_indian_ <In%

> 40>

> > astrology@grou <astrology%40> ps.com,

Gopal

> Goel

> > <gkgoel1937@>wrote:>> Dear Mr.. Sreenadh,> You become exited too

> > soon. Why are youusing such words like foolish etc. Please do not

> > loose your cool andtemper and that too for proving > something

> which

> > you believe is rightand others are wrong.> For us lord Rama is

> > incarnation of GOD, AND ITDOES NOT MATTER WHEN WAS HE APPEARED ON

> > THIS EARTH.VALMIKI RAMAYANGIVES> US GRATE STRENGTH AND

TEACHING.THE

> > RAMA OF VALMIKI RAMAYANA ISA GREAT IDEAL FOR US GIVE INSPIRATION

IN

> > OUR DAY TO DAY > LIFE.> Ifyou also view Lord Shri Rama in the

same

> > light, some worthwhilediscussion is possible among

> > ourselves,otherwise at least I do notwish to join such

> discussions.>

> > In astrology ,Kuleer means only cancer. Ravao is appearing

> separately

> > in the Sloka. This may have twoindications:> 1. Sign Cancer was

> > rising with Sun> 2 .Cancer was risingwith Sun in dignity i.e. at

> Noon

> > time> As namkaran sanskar of all thefour brothers had taken place

> > simultaneously after the appearance ofLORD RAMA ON THE EARTH, THE

> > LATTER MEANING ARE MORE APPROPRIATE> ANDLOGICAL.> Kindly advise,>

>

> >

> > > G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-

110

> > 076> INDIA > > > > ----- Original Message----> Sreenadh

> > <sreesog@>> To:ancient_indian_

> > <%40>

> > astrology@grou <astrology%40> ps.com>

Sent:

> > Tuesday, 13 November,2007 12:59:08 PM> Subject:

> > Re: Contextualmeaning of the

> > word " Kuleera " in Ramayana - To Rao ji & Goal ji> >Dear Rao ji &

> Goal

> > ji,> I could see that both of you are of theopinian

that " Kuleera "

> >

> > means " Cancer Sign " as used in ValmikiRamayana. Interesting! Let

us

> >

> > for argument sake accept that it meansCancer sign itself - in >

> > Valmiki Ramayana. If so please clarify myfollowing doubt. The

sloka

> >

> > given in Valmiki Ramayana is " SarpeJatastu Saumitri Kuleera

> abhudite

> > > Ravo " - as per your meaning thesloka would get transilated >

> > as " Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born inAslesha Nakshatra when Sun

>

> > was in Cancer " ! Now the questions -> * Doyou mean to say that

> > Lekhmana and Satrukhna were born 4 months > afterthe birth of

Rama

> > and Bharata? Or> * Do you think that either the poetor the

> > interpolator was foolish > enough to believe that Sun will move4

> > signs in a single day (if it > is assumed that rama and

> brotherstook

> > birth in cosequtive days) > Please answer - I sincerely

believethat

> > you will have a clear > solution to suggest for this problem.

> >Love,>

> > Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> com,Gopal

> > Goel > <gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Friends,> > Mr. Raois

a

> > great scholar , obviously he is right> > Dictionary meaning is

> > toguide us , ultimate meaning should depend > on context.> >

Sloka

> > onthe birth of Lakshaman's says -ravoa- this points out to >

> > twopossibilities:> > 1 , Sun is with rising sign Cancer.> > 2

Sign

> > Cancerwas rising and Sun was placed in most prominent >

> position ,i.e

> > NOON>> As namakaran sanskar of all the four brothers was

performed

> > >simultaneously after 11thday of the birth of Lord RAM.> >

> > Lakshamanand Satrughan was born in Noon in Ashlesha Nakshatra >

> when

> > Cancer wasrising.> > Regards.> > > > G.K.GOEL> > Ph: 09350311433>

>

> > Add: L-409,SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA > > > > > >

>

> > > -----Original Message ----> > HosabettuRamadas Rao

> > <ramadasrao@ ...>>> ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> com>

> > > Monday, 12November, 2007 2:50:13 AM> > RE:

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology]Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' - To

> > Finn ji> > > > Dear Finn Ji,> >As per my knowledge you are

> correct.As

> > per Brihajjataka, Yavana >Jataka etc.Kuleera means Karkataka

> Rashi.>

> > > karkaHkuLIraakrutirambusa msthovakshaHprad esho >

> > vihitaschadhaatuH.......This shloka is from Yavana Jataka.Meaning

>

> > karkataka Rashi islike the shape of KulIraakruti which is in >

> > water,kalapurusha' schest ( vaksha sthala ) portion,indicative of

>

> > Dhatu sign orRashi,also indicative of well,river and watery

land.>

> >

> > I hope thishelps.> > With Regards,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > To:ancient_indian_ astrology> >

> > sreesog@> > Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:12:21 +0000> > Subject:

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Nirukti of the > word 'Lagna' -

> > ToFinn ji> > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > Let us consider your

> > majorarguments -> > ==>> > > to interpret Kuleera as Capricorn is

> > also farfetched, to > > > say the least, since all the

astrological

> > textsdescribe it as > > > Karkata!> > <==> > That is simply your

> > ignorance- many major dictionaries and> > Nikhandus deals with in

> > detail - andclarifies it well that the word> > 'Kuleera' could

> > mean 'Capricorn'.To convince you, I will provide a> > details

> quotes

> > and referencesfrom them in the next post. > > ==>> > > If you are

> > using " Lagna " forsigns, then you cannot help placing > > > five

> > planets of Bhagwan Ramain Karkata, since this is what> > > the

> ninth

> > sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > > >

> > svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshukarkate lagne vakpatav induna >

>

> >

> > saha " > > <==> > This too issimply ignorance. The sloka bit

> > means " (Rama took birth)> > inPunarvasu Nakshatra, while 5

planets

> > where in own house or> >exaltation, when Jupiter was with Moon in

> > Cancer sign " . Two things> >should be noted here -> > 1) To denote

> > Cancer sign the word Karkata isused (and NOT Kuleera)> > 2) There

> too

> > the word " Lagna " means " Sign " itself. Note that> > " karkate lagne

> > vakpatav induna saha " means " InCancer SIGN Jupitor > was> > with

> > Moon " > > ==>> > > Secondly, wecannot overlook the fact

> that " Adyatma

> > Ramayana " , > which > > > yousays was written in Kerala, contains

> the

> > following shlokas> > <== > >There is more than one ignorance in

> your

> > statements. Let see what> >they are - > > 1) Adhyatma Ramayana is

> NOT

> > a text written in Kerala.It is - " an> > ancient Sanskrit work

> > extolling the spiritual virtuesof the story > of> > Ramayana. It

> > comprises around 4200 verses, isembedded in > Brahm & #257;nda> >

> > Purana and is considered to beauthored by Ved Vyasa " -

wikipedia.>

> >

> > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Adhyatma_ Ramayana)> > 2) What is

> > popular in Kerala is an INDIPENDEDTRANSILATION of> > Adyatma

> Ramayana

> > written by Tunjattu RamanujanEzhuttacchan who is> > known as

> > the 'father of malayalam language' agreat scholar. > > 3) We are

> NOT

> > discussing Adhyatma Ramayana butVALMIKI RAMAYANA - so> > don't

> bring

> > in irrelevant quotes in between.Note that while Valmiki> >

Ramayana

> > does not mention Madhu masa etcAdhayata Ramayana does it.> > Note

> > that while Valmiki Ramayana tellsus that the birth took place >

in>

> >

> > the 12th (Nakshatra) Month fromthe end date of Putra kameshti,> >

> > Adhyatma Ramayana tells us that ithappened at the 10th month. So

>

> > with> > this much inconsistenciesbetween these two texts -

Adhyatma

> >

> > Ramayana> > quote is NOT worthconsidering while

> discussing " Astrology

> > in > Valmiki> > Ramayana " . Itis clear that you are bringing in

the

> > Adhyatma > ramayana> > quoteonly because it mentions your

> pet " Madhu

> > Masa " in it - but > that> >is irrelevant to the current context.

> > Please try to depend ONLY ON> >references from Valmiki Ramayana

> alone

> > while discussing the same. > >4) I am not interested in your

habit

> > and inconsistent nature in> >studying subject and introducing

> > diversions. So I don't have any >time> > to waste after the quote

> and

> > inconsistencies you presentedregarding> > the Adhyatma Ramayana

> > quote. Again it simply means that Ihave > wasted> > enough time

on

> > the ignorance of " TropicalCalendarvalas " . > > Note: So learn to

be

> > sincere and be truthful -and if clarity comes> > in from some

where

> > learn to welcome it †" and if possible drop the> > fanatism

and

> > use of bad words. You aredragging me to the same> > direction â

> € "

> > `I know only to deal withbad with bad and good with > good'> > â

> € "

> > so the end result wouldbe the group becoming a mud house and I> >

> > don't want it. So pleaseavoid name calling here onwards and me

too>

> >

> > will never resort to it.Let us keep the group clean and sane. >

> > People> > has already startedcomplaining about the insane useless

> > direction > in> > which thisgroup is going - both you and me are

> > culprits for the > same.> >Please know it as a fact. > >

Regards,>

> >

> > Sreenadh> > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> > com, " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > ><jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > >> > >

Shri

> > Sreenadh ji,> > > Namaskar!> > >You are talking of an event of

> second

> > century BCE. The Surya > > >Sidhanta, which gives the mothodology

> of

> > calculating " lagna " was > > >very much in vogue then. When you

are

> > using the word Lagna in the > >> context of planetary positions

vis-

> a-

> > vis some horoscope/birth >chart, > > > it is unimaginable that

> > instead of the commoninterpretation of > the > > > word Lagna

i.e.

> > the sign rising at aparticular time, > > > the " astrologer "

> concerned

> > would have resortedto some other > meaning > > > of that word! He

> > could very well haveused the word " rashi " > instead > > > of

Lagna

> > then.> > > Secondly, tointerpet Kuleera as Capricorn is also far

> > fetched, > to > > > say theleast, since all the astrological

texts

> > describe it as > > > Karkata!>> > Then you are also ascribing

> > a " misprint " or some problem > > > with " Sandhi " for the

> > word " abyudyete ravav " and interpreted it > as > > >the

description

> > of Mars in Capricorn! That also is far fetched!> > > >> > If you

> are

> > using " Lagna " for signs, then you cannot help placing >> > five

> > planets of Bhagwan Rama in Karkata, since this is what the >> >

> ninth

> > sholka of Canto 18 says, " nakshatre aditi daivatye > >

> > >svochsamstheshu panchasu graheshu karkate lagne vakpatav induna

>

> >

> > >saha " Here you can club the words as " panchasu graheshu karkate

>

> >

> > >lagne, vakpatav induna saha " and interpret them as " five planets

>

> >

> > >were in Karkata rashi, which included the Moon and Jupiter " . You

>

> >

> > >cannot interpret " lagna " as sign in one place and at the same >

> time

> > >> > as lagna i.e. aschendant in another place in one and the

same

> >

> > >> chapter.> > > > > > The maximum difficulty that arises out of

> > thishypothesis is that > in > > > second century BCE, there was

> > nomethodology of calculating > planets > > > correctly, whether

it

> > wasIndia or any other country! India, on > the > > > other hand,

> > wassaddled with the Surya Sidhanta, which is > > > fundamentally

> the

> > mostincorrect work. So it is just a > possibility > > > that

> > theastrologer concerned could have calculated the planetary > >

> > >positions as per the Surya Sidhanta and then implanted them in >

> the

> > >> > Valmiki Ramayana! Those calculatons can give very surprising

>

> >

> > >results!> > > > > > Secondly, we cannot overlok the fact

> > that " AdyatmaRamayana " , > which > > > you says was written in

> Kerala,

> > contains thefollowing shlokas> > > " madhumasse site pakshe

navmyam

> > karkate shubhe>> > punarvasu sahite uchasthe grahapanchake> > >

> > mesham pooshanisamprapte pushpavrishti samakule aviraseej jagan >

>

> >

> > nathah parmatmasanatanah " (1/3/14-15)> > > > > > A running

> > translation of theseshlokas is> > > " In the month of Madhu,

shukla

> > paksha --brighthalf--in navmi > tithi > > > and punarvasu

nakshara,

> > when five planetswere exalted, the sun > was > > > in Mesha, the

> > Eternal Lord of theworlds, Parmatma, > incarnated.. .. " > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > 1. Here the sunhas specifically been put in Mesha but at the

>

> > same > > > time it isMadhu masa -- which is an astronomical

> > impossibility!> > > > > > 2.Five planets are exalted but there is

> no

> > mention that any > planet > >> is in its own rashi..> > > > > >

3.

> > Though there is no menion ofKarkata lagna or the Moon in > > >

> > Karkata, but if the Sun is in Meshaand it is Navmi tithi, it >

> means

> > > > > that even if the sun is in 1degree of Mesha the Moon has to

> be

> > > at a > > > distance of more than96 degrees from the same. Thus

> the

> > Moon > will > > > be in Karkata 7degrees to Karkata 19 degrees.

But

> > then Punarvasu > > > nakshatraranges from Mithuna 20 degrees to

> > Karkata 3-20. Thus it > > > is againan astronomical

impossibility.>

> >

> > > > > > In short, whichever way youlook at it, whether it is the

> > Valmiki > > > Ramayana or the AdyatmaRamayana, the astronomical

> Rashi

> > position > > > of the planets cannotbe justifed at all!> > > With

> > regards,> > > AKK> > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@

> > . com, " Sreenadh " > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > >> > > >

> > Dear Finn ji,> > > > The root (dhatu)for the word 'Lagna'

is 'Lag'

> > which means> > > > join/conjunct/mix/combine. 'Lagati'

or 'Lagitam'

> > means " the > one > > > that> > > >joins/conjuncts/

> mixes/combines " .

> > There are many words that > sprung> > > from> > > > this root.

Look

> > at the following word -> > > > " Lagna MandalaH " - it means the

same

> > as " Rasi Chakra " and means> > > >'Zodiac'. > > > > Mandala =

Chakra

> =

> > Circle> > > > Lagna = Rasi =Sign> > > > Lagna Mandala means 'Sign

> > Circle' and 'Rasi Chakra' also >> > means 'Sign> > > > Circle' or

> in

> > other words both are other namesfor the > Ecliptic, > > > the> >

>

> >

> > zodiac circle. The word 'LagnaMandala' you can find in any > > >

> > standard> > > > Sanskritdictionary. Thus it is evident that the

> > word 'Lagna' > can> > > >means 'Sign'. Now coming to Nirukti, the

> > word 'Lagna' has the> > > >following Nirukti -> > > > 'Lagati

> GrahaiH

> > iti Lagna' meaning 'the onewhich> > > > join/conjunct/

mix/combine

> > with Planets is called Lagna';> certainly > > > the> > > > word

> lagna

> > here refers to 'Sign' becauseit is when the planets > > > joins>

>

> >

> > > (traverse through) signsthat the results originate. Thus every

>

> >

> > > sign> > > > means'Lagna'. > > > > Another Nirukti for the word

> > Lagna is 'Lagati Phalaiiti Lagna'> > > > meaning 'the one which

> > join/conjuct/ mix/combine (orin other > words> > > > shows) with

> the

> > results is called Lagna'; herethe word 'Lagna' > can> > > > refer

> > either to 'Sign' or to 'Asc'. > >> > Later the the word 'Lagna'

got

> a

> > better and clear definition > > >such as> > > > 'Raseenam Udayo

> > Lagna' meaning the 'the rising sign iscalled > > > Lagna'.> > > >

> > Note that here also the word lagna isessentially associated >

with

> >

> > > > the> > > > word 'Sign', but stillit is due to importance to

the

> >

> > word 'rising'> > > > that it gottranslated as 'Asc'. Of course

> since

> > the at the > > > horizon,> > > >the sky and the earth joins and

so

> > the word 'Lagna' is apt here > too>> > > and that is why the

> > translation of this word as 'Ascendant' > >> acceptable. > > > >

> Note

> > that when used interchangeably with thewords Arudha (as > > >

done>

> >

> > > > in Prasnamarga) , the word 'Lagna'loses all its association >

> > with> > > > 'rising sign' even today, andresort to the old

> > meaning 'Sign'!> > > > Further there are many Lagnassuch

as 'Ghati

> > Lagna', 'Hora > Lagna',> > > > 'Bhava

Lagna', 'SreeLagna', 'Arudha

> > Lagna' etc some of which > are > > > NOT> > > > AT ALLrelated

> > to 'rising' or 'horizon' in any way. Therefore > in > > >such> >

>

> >

> > contexts to translating the word 'Lagna' as 'Asc' becomes> > >

> > erroneous.. > > > > Considering all these points it becomesclear

> that

> > accepting the> > > > meaning 'Sign' for the word 'Lagna'

in'Valmiki

> > Ramayana' > context > > > is a> > > > truly acceptableargument,

> well

> > supported by Nirukti and > > > Dictionaries.> > > >Hope this

helps.

> >

> > > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_

> > astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > ><sreesog@> wrote:>

>

> >

> > > >> > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > > The niruktiand dictionary

> quotes

> > which gives the > > > meaning 'Sign' to> > > > >the word 'Lagna'

I

> > will provide - please wait for the next > post. > >> Now> > > > >

> > coming to your next argument -> > > > > ==>> > > > > >However,

even

> > if we agree for the sake of argument that > lagna > > >means > >

>

> >

> > > > sign, how do you say that the sun was in Mina sinceit has > >

>

> > very > > > > > > clearly been stated " kuleere abyuditeravav " i.e.

> > when the > sun > > > was > > > > > > in Kuleera i.e.Karkata

Rashi!

> > Thus even if we take the sun > of > > > > > > BhagwanRama in Mina

> > instead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana > > > and > > > >> >

> > Shatrugana could not be in Karkata in any case.> > > > > <==> >

>>

> >

> > It is already answered in a previous mail to Kaul ji. But I > >

> > >will> > > > > re-state it here. > > > > > " kuleere abyudite

ravav "

> > Itcould be a simple sandhi mistake > > > of a> > > > >

> missing 'aa'.

> > Andthe correct reading could be " kuleere> > > > >

> > abyuditaraavav " ,meaning " Mars (aara) was in Capricorn > > >

> > (Kuleera) " .> > > > > Notethat the meaning of the word Kuleera is

> > given in Sanskrit> > > > >Nikhandus as " Kuleero Nakra Karkatau "

> > meaning " The word > Kuleera > >> is> > > > > used for Capricon

and

> > Cancer " . The auther of Hridyapadha> vyakhya > > > of> > > > >

> > Brihajjataka clearly quotes manyreferences from various > > >

> > Nikhandus and> > > > > argues that themeaning Capricorn for the

> word

> > Kuleera is > also > > > very> > > > >popular. Note that this

solves

> > all the confusion and shows > that > >> apart> > > > > from the

> > position of Ju & Mo in Cancer the textprovides the > > >

position>

> >

> > > > > of Many other planets as well.For example it is clear from

>

> > the> > > > > description given alongwith Bharata's Nakshatra that

> Sun

> > and > > > Mercury> > > > > are inPisces, and from the one given

> along

> > while giving the > > > Nakshatra>> > > > of Lakshmana and

Satrukhna

> > that Mars is in Capricorn! So it >> > becomes> > > > > clear that

> all

> > those brothers are born inconsecutive days, > and > > > also> > >

>

> >

> > that the poet didn't gavethe Asc of any of them - but only > the>

>

> >

> > > > planetary position. >> > > > Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology, " Avtar >

> > Krishen > > >Kaul " > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > >

>

> > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology@ . > com, " Sreenadh "

>

> >

> > > > > ><sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sreenadh

ji,>

> >

> > > > > >Namaskar!> > > > > > From your curent post, it appears

that

> > both of usagree > that > > > the > > > > > > astrological

> references

> > in theValmiki Ramayana are > > > concoctions > > > > > > since

the

> > planetarypositions appear to have been for a > period > > > of >

>

> >

> > > > >second century BCE.> > > > > > However, you have also said>

>

> >

> > > > >> > > > > > <4) While describing the Nakshatra of Bharata

> > thestatement > > > given is> > > > > > " Pushye jatastu bharato

> > MeenaLagne Prasanna Dhee " should be> > > > > > translated

> to " Bharata

> > wasborn in Pushya Nakshatra, and at > > > that > > > > > > time

Sun

> > & Mercury was in the Sign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna > > > means > >

>

> >

> > >> Sign - as per the usage in Ramayana; The Sanskrit >

dictionaries

> >

> > >> and > > > > > > Nirukti of the word Lagna too clearly support

> > thismeaning > of > > > the > > > > > > word Lagna) ->> > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >> I do not agree with you here since no astrologer, howevr >

>

> > >useless or > > > > > > ignorant he/she may be or might have been

> > wouldbe unaware > of > > > the > > > > > > fact that lagna means

a

> > signascending at the time of > > > birth/event. > > > > > > There

> is

> > aproecedure for calculating the same in the Surya > > > Sidhanta

>

> >

> > >> > > also, even if that is the most inaccuate astronomical

work.

> >

> > >> The > > > > > > complete sholka is " Pushye jatastu Bharato,

> > Minalagne > > > > > > prasannadheeh, sarpe jatatavtu saumitri,

> > kuleereabyudite > > > ravav " --> > > > > > 1/18/15> > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > Thusaccording to me Mina Lagna means Mila langa! However, > >

>

> > even > > >> > > if we agree for the sake of argument that lagna

> means

> > sign, > >> how do > > > > > > you say that the sun was in Mina

> since

> > it hasvery clearly > > > been > > > > > > stated " kuleere

abyudite

> > ravav " i.e. when the sun was in > > > Kuleera > > > > > > i.e.

> Karkata

> > Rashi!Thus even if we take the sun of Bhagwan > > > Rama in > > >

>

> >

> > > Minainstead of Mesha, the sun of Lakshmana and Shatrugana > > >

> > could not> > > > > > be in Karkata in any case. > > > > > > The

> names

> > ofnakshatras are very clear i.e. Shri RAm was > born > > > in > >

>

> >

> > >> Aditi-Daivata i.e. Punarvasu (ii) Bharata in Pushya and > (iii-

>

> >

> > >iv)> > > > > > Lakshmana and Shatrugana in " Sarpi " i.e.

Ashlesha.

> > Theyare > > > in a > > > > > > sequence, but if the sun of

> Lakshamana

> > andShatrugana is in > > > Karkata, > > > > > > who are younger by

> > justtwo days, the sun of Shri Ram and > > > Bharata > > > > > >

> > cannot beeither in Mina or Mesha!> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus

> > whichever way welook at it, there certainly has been > a > > > >

>

> >

> > manipulation ofplanetary positions in the Valmiki Ramayana.> > >

>

> >

> > > With regards,>> > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul> > > > > > >> > > >

>

> >

> > > Dear Kaul ji,>> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > ii) The planetary

> > position of BhagwanRam as given in > the > > > > > > Valmiki > >

>

> >

> > > > > > Ramaya was " implanted " in that work by some " jyotishi " >

of

> >

> > > > either > > > >> > > > that period or a later one!> > > > > >

>

> > <==> > > > > > >Exactly! Not only the horoscope but the whole

> > Ramayana is > > > re-> >> > > > written> > > > > > >

by 'Brhamanic

> > priests' supported by Sungadynasty - is > the > > > correct> > >

>

> >

> > > > argument. (And not byJyotishis). Thus the currently > > >

> > available> > > > > > > 'BrahmanicRamayana' (Why insult sage

> Valmiki)

> > is clearly > > > the work > > > >> > of> > > > > > >

> some 'brahmanic

> > poet' who lived after BC 157, whotook a > > > planetary> > > > >

>

> >

> > position known to him and ascribedit to Rama!! > > > > > > > ==>>

>

> >

> > > > > > > Since 157 BC is an eraof recorded history without any >

>

> >

> > > > > obscurity, we > > > > > >> > do not have any such records

> that

> > a divine incarnation > > > cameinto > > > > > > > > existence

then,

> > especially since it is after theBudha-> > > Avtar and > > > > > >

>

> >

> > after the advent of Maya themlechha into India!> > > > > > > <==

>

> >

> > > > > > > You are absolutelyright! And that is why it is said >

> that -

> > > > > it is> > > > > > >just the imagination of the poet who

wrote

> > this poem in > the > > >recent> > > > > > > past. He just took

> > some samples from the recent> history > > > known to> > > > > > >

> him

> > and manipulated the tocreate a long poem - that > > > fulfills

his>

> >

> > > > > > > purpose. Idon't have any disregard for the 'Brahmnic >

> > poet' > > > who > > > > >> knew> > > > > > > what he was doing -

> but

> > I feel pity for the peoplewho > > > mistook to> > > > > > >

> represent

> > actual history, andbelieve that Monkey men > with a > > > tail> >

>

> >

> > > > > lived inrecent past and also that Sanskrit as used in > > >

> > Ramayana> > > > >> > existed in the period of those monkey

> people. )

> > > > > > > > >==>> > > > > > > > Even here, you are using " J Hora "

> for

> > 157 BC whenall > we > > > had at > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >

> > point of timei.e. 157 BC by way of astronomical bibles > > > was

> the

> > > > > > > > >> Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha as given in the

>

> > Pancha > > > >> > Sidhantika!> > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > Kaul

> ji,

> > that is notthat important - since the poet who > > > wrote> > > >

>

> >

> > > Ramyanais not that accurate in describing the charts - > not >

>

> >

> > that > > >> > > he is> > > > > > > not giving any longitudes but

> only

> > describesa planetary > > > position > > > > > > of> > > > > > >

BC

> > 157. Hegives the position of ALL THE PLANETS and > > >

mentions

> >

> > > > > > >that> > > > > > > it was Punarvasu Nakshatra and that

the

> > Tithi wasNavami. > No > > > great> > > > > > > astronomical

> knowledge

> > isnecessory to mention this much, > and> > > > > > > therefore

> > anysoftware will do. Further JHora most of > the > > > > > >

> > peoplein> > > > > > > this group is having and they can verify

the

> > planetary> > > position > > > > > > using> > > > > > > that. >

>

> >

> > > > > >If you are bewildered by the statement that " ALL THE > > >

> > PLANETSARE> > > > > > > MENTIONED " , then here goes the

> > clarification:> > > >> > > 1) Thiti Navami, Nakshatra Punar vasu -

 

> > clearly stated> > > > >> > 2) Ju, Ma in Cancer - clearly stated.>

>

> >

> > > > > > 3) 5 planets inown house or exaltation - statement not >

>

> >

> > clear.> > > > > > > Thencomes the interesting part -> > > > > > >

> 4)

> > While describing theNakshatra of Bharata the > statement > > >

> given

> > > > > > > > is> > > >> > > " Pushye jatastu bharato Meena Lagne

> > Prasanna Dhee " should > be>> > > > > > translated to " Bharata was

> > born in Pushya Nakshatra, and >at > > > that > > > > > > time> >

>

> >

> > > > > Sun & Mercury was in theSign Pisces " !! (Since Lagna >

means

> >

> > > > Sign - > > > > > > as> > >> > > > per the usage in Ramayana;

> The

> > Sanskrit dictionaries and > > >Nirukti of> > > > > > > the word

> Lagna

> > too clearly support thismeaning of the > word > > > > > > Lagna) -

>

> >

> > > > > > > Thus theposition of Sun and Mercury are clearly stated!

>

> >

> > > > > > > 5) Whiledescribing the Nakshatra of Lakshmana and > > >

> > Satrukhna it is> > > >> > > said that the Nakshatra is Aslesha

and

> > also that " Kuleere> > > >> > > Abhuditeaaravo " means " Arra (Mars)

> was

> > in Capricon > > >(Kuleera) " !! > > > > > > Which> > > > > > > is

> > exact! Thus it becomesclear that our confusion > > > about 'Sun

in>

> >

> > > > > > > Cancer' wasjust because of a Sandhi problem!! - Thus

the

> >

> > > > position > > > > >> of> > > > > > > Mars is clearly stated! >

>

> >

> > > > > > 6) Thus whatremains is the position of Sa and Ve - which

>

> >

> > > as per > > > > > >the> > > > > > > given Tropical chart of 14

> March

> > 157 BC becomes >clarified. > > > Sa is in> > > > > > > Aquarius

and

> > Ve is in Taurus! >> > > > > > Thus the poet knew well what he is

> > speaking about - the >> > confusion> > > > > > > till date

> regarding

> > this planetary positionbeing caused > by > > > our> > > > > > >

> > ignorance and lack of effortto understand the facts! > > > > >

>

> >

> > Love,> > > > > > > Sreenadh>> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In

> > ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Avtar > > >

Krishen

> >

> > > > > > > Kaul " > > > > > >> <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> >

>

> >

> > > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,>> > > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > > > >

> > <Calculate the planetaryposition for 14 March -156 > > >

> (Gregorian>

> > > > > > > > > Calendar);9.15 PM approx in JHora; and you will see

>

> > what > > > I > > > > > >mean. The> > > > > > > > Horoscope

matches

> > well with the descriptionin > Ramayana.>> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > My dear Sreenadhji, youare making really a fool of > > >

yourself

> > by > > > > > > such > > > >> > > > comments!> > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > All you are trying toprove is that the planetary > position

>

> >

> > > of > > > > > > > >Bhagwan Rama, as given in the Valmiki

Ramayana,

> > is the > > > planetary> > > > > > > > position of March 14, 157

BC.

> > Obviously, this leads to> > > two > > > > > > > > conclusions: >

>

> >

> > > > > > > 1) EitherBhagwan Ram was born on that date i.e. March >

> 14,

> > > > > 157 > > > > >> BC at > > > > > > > > 9-15 PM> > > > > > > >

> or>

> > > > > > > > > ii)The planetary position of Bhagwan Ram as given

in

> >

> > the > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > > > Ramaya was " implanted " in

> that

> > work by some " jyotishi " > of > > > either > > > > > > > > that

> period

> > or a laterone!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since 157 BC is an

> era

> > of recrodedhistory without any > > > > > > obscurity, we > > > >

>

> >

> > > > do nothave any such records that a divine incarnation > > >

> came

> > into > > >> > > > > existence then, especially since it is after

> the

> > Budha-> > >Avtar and > > > > > > > > after the advent of Maya the

> > mlechha intoIndia!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus all you

are

> > proving withyour astrological > knowledge > > > and > > > > > >

> > latest > > > > > >> > astronomical softwares is that some uselss

> and

> > foolish > > >jyotishi > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > implanted

the

> > planetaryposition of March 14, 157 BC > into > > > the > > > > >

>

> >

> > > ValmikiRamayana just to make even that divine > incarnation > >

>

> >

> > > > > >subservient to planetary suzarinity!> > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >Even here, you are using " J Hora " for 157 BC when all > we >

>

> >

> > hadat > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > point of time i.e. 157 BC

by

> > wayof astronomical bibles > > > was the > > > > > > > > Surya

> > Sidhanta ofMaya the mlechha as given in the > Pancha > > > > > >

> > Sidhantika!> > >> > > > > And as is an open secret, that is the

> most

> > useless > > >astronomical > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > by

> someone

> > who did notknow even ABC of astronomy, so > much > > > so > > > >

>

> >

> > that > > >> > > > > he did not have any knowledge of precession

> > either!> > > > >> > > QED/QEF> > > > > > > > With regards, > > >

>

> >

> > > > > AKK> > > >> > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@

> > . com, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> >

>

> >

> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Finn ji,> > > > >

>

> >

> > > > Calculate theplanetary position for 14 March -156 > > >

> > (Gregorian> > > > > > > > >Calendar); 9.15 PM approx in JHora;

and

> > you will see > > > what I > >> > > > mean. > > > > > > > > The> >

>

> >

> > > > > > > Horoscope matcheswell with the description in > > >

> > Ramayana. > > > > > > > > > Let uslook at the core argument of

Kaul

> > ji -> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > >> > > > iii) The sun could

> never

> > be in Mesha -- whether the > so > > >> > > called > > > > > > > >

> > sayana> > > > > > > > > > or the socalled nirayana --- if it was

> > Madhu Masa > > > i.e. the > > > > > > >> first > > > > > > > > >

>

> > month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time ofbirth of > > > Bhagwan >

>

> >

> > > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > <== > > > >> > > > > I am yet to see

> any

> > reference in so called Valmiki > > >Ramayana > > > > > > which> >

>

> >

> > > > > > > states that 'Rama's birthtook place in Madhu Masa'; > I

>

> >

> > > hope > > > > > > Kaul ji> > > > >> > > > will come up with

> relevant

> > quote from the same > text. ;=) > >> > > > Actually > > > > > > >

>

> > if> > > > > > > > > we read throughRamayana we could easily see

> that

> > the > > > birth > > > > > > took > >> > > > > > place> > > > > >

>

> >

> > > BEFORE the advent of Vasanta Ritu.> > > > > > > > > Also note

> that

> > the meaning 'Sign(Rasi)' for the > >> word 'Lagna' > > > > > > is

> a>

> > > > > > > > > > very popular one, andthe original one. The

Nirukta

> >

> > > > defenition > > > > > > of > > > >> > > > the> > > > > > > > >

> > word 'Lagna' itself means 'Sign (Rasi)'and not Asc, > > > even >

>

> >

> > > > > though > > > > > > > > the> > > >> > > > > second meaning

> > became popular later. > > > > > > > > > Andso the conclusion -

who

> > ever made up this text -> > > was > > > > > >> > describing> > >

>

> >

> > > > > > a recent planetary position which waswell known to > him -

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > possibly > > > > > > > > a> > >> > > > > >

planetary

> > position of some king in his own period, > and >> > that is > > >

>

> >

> > > why> > > > > > > > > Ramayana is a mereliterary text, and NOT a

> > divine > one. > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > >> > > > > If some

parts

> > of it seems to be confusing,> > > > > > > > >> anachronistic,

> > interpolated or manipulated, then it > > > may > > >> > > better

> to>

> > > > > > > > > > > simply wait and make furtherinvestigations into

>

> > the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > > <==> > > > >> > > > I agree -

> but

> > is it not that these discussions itself > > > is> > > > > > part

of

> >

> > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > >investigations into the

> subject?

> > > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > >> > > You have come up with

some

> > relevant questions > > > regarding >> > > > > > > Ramayana's> > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > description of thehoroscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If

>

> >

> > > > > > possible > > > > > >> > it > > > > > > > > > > may be a

> good

> > idea to compare thesehoroscope-> > > descriptions > > > > > > to

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > >similar descriptions from other texts.. > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > <==> > > > >> > > > Yes, I agree - and our field is wast -> >

>

> >

> > > > > > >Nirayana Astrology - Rishi Horas & Tantric texts> > > >

>

> >

> > > > >Sayana/Tropical Astrolology - Vedic literature, > Epics, > >

>

> >

> > > >Puranas > > > > > > > > etc > > > > > > > > > There is lot

> > ofunprocessed, non-scrutinized data > > > around, and > > > > > >

> we

> > > >> > > > > > can> > > > > > > > > do much; though our studies -

> > whetherthe conclusions > > > agree > > > > > > with> > > > > > >

>

> >

> > popularnotions and beliefs or not. > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > >

>

> >

> > > > > >The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the >

>

> >

> > birth >> > > > > and > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > >

> > horoscopes ofboth Rama and Krishna. I have seen > this > > > > >

>

> > description> > >> > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the

> description

> > from > Ramayana> > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > one> >

>

> >

> > > > > > > >given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or are >

there

> >

> > > > > > > >> differences?> > > > > > > > > > This may actually

> > provide us withsome new and > > > relevant > > > > > > > >

> > information.> > > > > > >> > <==> > > > > > > > > I agree - quote

> and

> > proceed. But remember onething - > > > our > > > > > > major> > >

>

> >

> > > > > > concern in thesediscussions is 'Astrology in Valmiki > >

>

> >

> > > > Ramayana' > > > > > >> > (and> > > > > > > > > not merely the

> > horoscope of Rama), and letus not > forget > > > the > > > > > >

> main

> > > > > > > > > > area> > > >> > > > > of study, while dealing with

> > diversions. At the end > of > >> our > > > > > > study, > > > > >

>

> >

> > > for> > > > > > > > > suresome useful and systematic material

> should

> > come > > > up. We > > >> > > > > will > > > > > > > > >

preserve

> > and present it - as abackground for further > > > > > > > >

> > investigations> > > > > > > > >into other areas. :=)> > > > > > >

>

> >

> > Love,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> -

> --

> > In ancient_indian_ astrology (AT) (DOT) > com, " Finn > > >

> > Wandahl " > > > > > > > > ><finn.wandahl@ > wrote:> > > > > > > > >

> >>

> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr.Sreenadh & Mr. Kaul,> > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > Perhapsone should not draw too hasty conclusions

>

> >

> > > regarding > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > origin> > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > of the Ramayana. If someparts of it seems to be > > > confusing,>

>

> >

> > > > > > > > >anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated, then it

>

> >

> > > may > > > >> > better to> > > > > > > > > > simply wait and

make

> > furtherinvestigations into > the > > > subject.> > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > >> > > > > You have come up with some relevant questions >

>

> > >regarding > > > > > > > > Ramayana's> > > > > > > > > >

> description

> > ofthe horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. > If > > > > > > possible >

>

> >

> > >> > > > it may> > > > > > > > > > be a good idea to compare

> > thesehoroscope-descripti > ons > > > to > > > > > > similar> > >

>

> >

> > > > >> > descriptions from other texts. > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >> > The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of > the

>

> >

> > >birth > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > >

> > >horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna. I have seen > this > > > >

>

> > >description> > > > > > > > > > myself. Why not compare the

> > descriptionfrom > Ramayana > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > >

>

> >

> > one> > > >> > > > > > given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or

> are

> > > there >> > > > > > > differences?> > > > > > > > > > This may

> > actuallyprovide us with some new and > > > relevant > > > > > > >

> > >information.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-)> > > > >

>

> >

> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Finn> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@

> > , " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:>

>

> >

> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji,> > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > ==>> > > >> > > > > > > > The best option, therefore, is that

we

> > must > admit >> > that > > > > > > these> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > astrologicalcombinations in the Ramayanas are > > > later day> >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > >> interpolations > > > > > > > > > > > <==> > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > Thenwhy don't with a better spirit accept that > > > the

>

> >

> > > > > > whole> > > > > > > > ramayana> > > > > > > > > > > itself

> is

> > a made up textcreated between 2nd BC > and > > > 2 > > > > > >

> AD?

> > > > > > > > >> With the> > > > > > > > > > > numerous dereference

> to

> > Buddha & Jainreligions, > > > > > > Ardhasastra > > > > > > > >

> (of>

> > > > > > > > >> > > Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I >

> > believe > > >that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is clear> > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > thatit is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD > > >

> for

> > > > > > > >sure - > > > > > > > > or better> > > > > > > > > > >

in

> > 2AD in Sungaperiod itself. > > > > > > > > > > > There is no

wonder

> > that theastrological > reference > > > in > > > > > > > >

Ramayana

> > is> > > > >> > > > > > utterly wrong and seems to be made up and

in

> > the > > >line of > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > >Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly > > > superstitions. >

>

> >

> > > >> Actually > > > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > > only can

> > beexpected from such a text that is NOT > AT > > > ALL > > > > >

>

> >

> > >written by> > > > > > > > > > > sage Valmiki, but possibly by

> > somestupid > brahmins > > > of > > > > > > sunga > > > > > > > >

> > period.>> > > > > > > > > > What else do you think can be

expected

> > from such >a > > > text?!!> > > > > > > > > > > So I will request

> you

> > to betteraccept the fact > > > that - > > > > > > The > > > > > >

>

> >

> > whole> >> > > > > > > > > Ramayana itself is a made up text - a

> text

> > > created> > > with a > > > > > > > > purpose -> > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > createdbetween 2nd century BC and 2nd century > AD. > > > Even

the>

> >

> > > > > >> > > > > astronomical references in it is going in the >

> same

> > > > > >> > direction. > > > > > > > > If there> > > > > > > > > >

>

> > WAS aValmiki Ramayana prior to the currently > > > available > >

>

> >

> > > >one (as> > > > > > > > > > > referenced in Mahabharata) , then

> > thattext is > buried > > > in > > > > > > dept > > > > > > > > by

> > the> > >> > > > > > > > political and religious fanatics who had

a

> >

> > purpose >> > and > > > > > > wanted > > > > > > > > to> > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by > > > calling

>

> >

> > > > >> Buddha > > > > > > > > a thief> > > > > > > > > > > and

> > massmurdering Buddists. It was the hall make > of > > > that > >

>

> >

> > > >era > > > > > > > > (BC 200> > > > > > > > > > > to AD 200),

> > andevident from many other literary > > > works as > > > > > > >

>

> > well.> > > > > > > > > > > So instead of going against

astrologers -

>

> > how >> > about > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > against> > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >> and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures > who > >

>

> > in a >> > > > > > > futile> > > > > > > > > > > effort to spread

> > Animalkilling, and brahmin > > > projecting, > > > > > > Yaga> >

>

> >

> > > > > >> > > services, - rewrote all the good old ancient >

scripts

> >

> > > > and> > > > > > even > > > > > > > > tried to> > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > steeland accommodate even the non-vedic > > > astrological > > >

>

> >

> > >signs > > > > > > > > also into> > > > > > > > > > > scripts

> > thatpropagated such vedic rituals? Isn't > it > > > that > > > >

>

> >

> > > >Ramayana is> > > > > > > > > > > also a clear proof of the

same?

> >

> > > >> > > > > > > > I believe - this would be more logically > >

> > >acceptable > > > > > > path, > > > > > > > > with> > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > >enough evidence in support. > > > > > > > > > > > Endnote:

> > Ramayanais a made-up text. Not at all > > > > > > authentic. > >

>

> >

> > > > > >Giving it> > > > > > > > > > > importance more than a

simple

> > literarywork is > > > ignorance. > > > > > > Rama > > > > > > > >

> is

> > god> > >> > > > > > > > or not is irrelevant in an academic

> > discussion of > a> > > made > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > text

> like>

> > > > > > > > > > >> Ramayana. Ramayana is a text which is NOT

> written

> > > by > > > > > >Valmiki > > > > > > > > for sure> > > > > > > > >

>

> > > - he cannot besuch a corrupted, full of > partiality > > > and

>

> >

> > > > > > hatred> >> > > > > > > > > influenced, ignorant

individual.

> > Sage Valmiki was >a > > > great> > > > > > > > > > >

knowledgeable

> > sage as evident fromYoga Vasishta, > > > and > > > > > > > >

> > ascribing the> > > > > > > >> > > authorship of a text like

> currently

> > available > > > Ramayana on> > > > > > him > > > > > > > > is a>

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > SIN, and aninsult of that great sage. > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > I wil better adoptthis line of thinking. > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > Love,> > > > > > > > > >> Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > >ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> > com, " Avtar > > > > > > > >Krishen Kaul " > > > > > > > > > > >

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

> Shri

> > Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > > > >> Namaskar!> > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > <I request you to look in to thefollowing > > > argument and > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > possibilities ->>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > On the other hand Ireqeuswt all of you to > ponder > >

>

> on

> > the > > > > > > > > following> > > > > > > > > > > > facts, even

if

> > they are unpleasant:> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> 1.

> > The Valmiki Ramayana issupposed to be Aadi > > > Mahakavya > > >

>

> >

> > > > > i.e. the > > > > >> > > > > > > very first Mahakavya (Epic)

> of

> > Indian history > and > >> > > > Maharshi > > > > > > > > Valamiki

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > isknown as Aadi Kavi.> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > 2.The Mahabharata is a much later work.> > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to

> have

> > incarnated > much > > >> > > earlier > > > > > > > > than > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > BhagwanKrishna.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > 4. ShriKrishna is supposed to have incarnaed > > > much > >

>

> >

> > > > earlier >> > > > > > > than> > > > > > > > > the > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > >Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE> > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > A few million dollar questions are:> >

>

> >

> > > > > >> > > > a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or >

Mangal

> >

> > > >Shani > > > > > > etc.> > > > > > > > > planets > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > >> in the VJ> > > > > > > > > > > > b) We do not find any Mesha

> > etc.Rashis in the > > > > > > Mahabharata> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >> > > > > > > c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or any

>

> >

> > >Mangal > > > > > > Shani > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > >planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas > prior > > > to the

>

> >

> > >> > > > > Surya > > > > > > > > > > > > Sidhanta of the

> > PanchaSidhantika!> > > > > > > > > > > > The questions arising

out

> of

> > thesefacts are:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i )

> How

> > comewe find the horoscopic details of > > > Bhagwan > > > > > >

> > Rama,> > >> > > > > > Bharata, > > > > > > > > > > > > Shatruna

and

> > evenLakshamana in the Valmiki > > > Ramayana?> > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > >> > > > > > > > > ii) How come in spite of the best efforts

of

> >

> > all >> > the > > > > > > > > astronomers > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > nobody hasbeen able to reconcile the > > > irreconcilable > > > >

>

> >

> > facts > >> > > > > > that if > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagwan Rama

> was

> > born inSun in Mesha and Moon > in > > > > > > Karakta in > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > >> > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been > > >

> Navmki

> > > > > >> > tithi > > > > > > > > or vice-> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > versa?> > >> > > > > > > > > iii) The sun could never be in

Mesha --

>

> > whether > >> the so > > > > > > called> > > > > > > > > sayana >

>

> >

> > > > > > > >> > > or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu >

> Masa

> > > > > i.e.> > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > month ofthe Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth > of > > > > > >

> > Bhagwan > > > >> > > > Rama.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > iv)Thesun of the younger brothers could never > > > have

been

> >

> > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > Karkata > > > > > > > > > > > > if

the

> > sun of BhagwanRama was in Mesha or even > > > Mina!> > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > In a nutshell, the more we try to

> > reconcile > these > >> > > > > > irreconcilable > > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > facts, the more wewill be making a laughing > stock > > > of >

>

> >

> > > > > > > ourselves!>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > The best option,therefore, is that we must > admit > > > that > >

>

> >

> > > > these > > >> > > > > > > > > astrological combinations in the

> > Ramayanas are > > >later day > > > > > > > > > > > >

interpolations

> > by some good fornothing > > > overzealous > > > > > > > >

> astrologers

> > who > > > > > >> > > > > > did not know even this much of

astronomy

> > that > if > > >the sun > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Bhagwan > >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > > >Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could >

never

> >

> > > > have > > >> > > been > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > Karkata justafter two days in the case of His > > > siblings!> >

>

> >

> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT

> JUST

> > FOR THIS FACT> THAT > > > WE DO > > > > > > NOT > > > > > > > >

> HAVE

> > A > > > > > >> > > > > > HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR

> HIM

> > HAS > > > > >> INCREASED > > > > > > > > SINCE IT > > > > > > > >

>

> >

> > > > MEANSTHAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA > > > KARTUM >

>

> >

> > > > > > >SAMARTH AND > > > > > > > > > > > > NOT SUBJECT TO

> > PLANETARYSUZARINITY!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > And thetail-piece of all this haranguing is > that > > > it > > >

>

> >

> > > means> > > > > > > > clearly > > > > > > > > > > > > that

Rishis

> > likeValmiki nad the Veda Vayasa > etc. > > > did not> > > > > > >

>

> > >believe in > > > > > > > > > > > > any pedictive gimmicks

either.>

> >

> > >> > > > > > > > > With regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > Avtar

> > KrishenKaul> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invite your

mail

> > contactsto join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces.

It's

> > easy! Tryit! > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many

mails

> as

> > you wish.To know > how, go to > http://help. /

> > l/in//mail/mail/ tools/tools- 08.html> >> > > > > > 5,

> 50,

> > 500, 5000 -Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go

> > tohttp://help.

> > <tohttp://help.

> <tohttp://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools->

> /l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools->

> > /l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-

> > 08.html> >> > > > >

> > >________>

> > Discoverthe new Windows Vista>http://search.

> > <http://search. <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?>

> msn.com/results.aspx?> msn.com/results.aspx?

> > q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE> > > > > > > >

> > ________>

Invite

> > your mail contacts to join your friends list with WindowsLive

> Spaces.

> > It's easy!>http://spaces. <http://spaces.

> <http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?> live.com/spacesapi.aspx?>

> > live.com/spacesapi.aspx?

> > wx_action=create & wx_url=/friends.aspx & mkt=en-us>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________

> > > Discover the new Windows Vista

> > > http://search.

> > <http://search.

> <http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en->

> msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en->

> > msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-

> > US & form=QBRE

> > >

> >

>