Horoscope of Lord Rama - To Kaul ji, Kishor ji, Finn ji

November 9, 2007

Dear Kaul ji, Kishor ji, Finn ji,

I request you to look in to the following argument and possibilities -

* The Yaga started at the beginning of Vasanta Ritu. And possibly

ended near the end of Vasanta Ritu. In the 12th Nakshatra month from

the end date of Yaga reached (i.e. when 280+ days, the normal period

of pregnancy is completed), and when the year was going to be

completed, Rama and brothers where born.

* From the mention of Navami Tithi and Punarvasu nakshatra it is

clear that Moon was some where near 27 degrees in Pisces.

* It is at the Vishu date (i.e. when Sun is in the vernal equinox)

that Vasanta Ritu bigins.

* Considering the above 3 points it is clear that VERNAL EQUINOX

WAS SOMEWHERE AFTER (NEAR) 27 DEGREE PISCES at the time of birth of

Rama! Can we have a bit more clarify on this? Let us consider the

following point -

* Possibly, from the beginning of Vasnata Ritu, it is after, 60

days (Vasata Ritu) + 280 days = 340 days, that Rama was born.

Completion of the year could take approximately 365.2425 - 340 =

25.2425 days more. Means the Ayanamsa (if at all used) was must tally

with this. In any case it is clear that " at the time of Rama's birth

Sun was between solstice and vernal equinox " ! (Because the next

Vasnata Ritu was yet to bigin)

So what is the important derivation and conclusion? Here it is -

* If this is the case, certainly either -

1)it is the description of a recent planetary position (possibly

between 250 BC and 250 AD) OR

2)the description of a planetary position at least 26000 years

before!

Because the same position of equinox can repeat only after 26000

years aprox.

I discard the 2nd choice simply as absurd and impossible -

considering out understanding of the archeological and linguistic

history of ancient india.

So the revelation is that - the planetary position given in Ramayana

is the description of a RECENT planetary position - possibly between

250 BC and 250 AD!! (It is the possible period of origin indicated by

various references present in Valmiki Ramayana itself). Is there any

year during this period which satisfies the conditions - provided in

the text? The points that should become true are -

* 5 planets should be either in own sign or exaltation.

* Jupitor and Moon should be in Cancer

* It should be Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

The extra points that could be considered are -

* The word 'Lagna' could means 'Sign' as well. Therefore it is NOT

necessary that Rama's Asc should be Cancer. (But if it is so, in all

the slokas present in Valmiki Ramayana the word 'Lagna' should mean

'Sign' itself)

* The word 'Prasanna dhee' used in Bharata's chart could mean

Mercury.

* Since Valmiki Ramayana follows the Vedic path, as could be

naturally expected, it could be a Tropical horoscope instead of a

Nirayana horoscope.

Is there a possible year in between BC 250 and AD 250 that

satisfies these conditions? Could it be: -157 or I request Kaul ji

and others to verify the following planetary position and the possible

date, using Tropical Zodiac-

* Ju and Moon in Cancer

* Sun and Me in Pisces

* Sa in Aquarious

* Ma in Capricon

* Ve in Tarus

* Ra & Ke in Ge-Sg axis

* Asc Scorpio!

* Suklapaksha Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

Note that all the conditions given in the text Ramayana becomes true,

it the following planetary position is possible. For example -

* Ma, Sa, Ve are in own sign & Ju, Ma are in exaltation - making 5

planets in own sign or exaltation.

* The tithi is Suklapaksha Navami and Nakshatra Punarvasu.

All the statements given in the text Ramayana could be right, it the

above planetary position is possible (please confirm it - whether it

is possible or not, by checking yourself). But then it becomes clear

that the word 'Lagna' is used in Ramayana with the meaning 'Sign', and

the word 'Prasanna dhee' to denote 'Mercury'.

I might have committed several mistakes in the above derivations, so

before confirming it, I am waiting for the response from the learned

scholars.

Note: Possibly I haven't yet done my homework right, so pardon me if

I have committed mistakes in the above argumentation.

Love,

Sreenadh

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kishore ji,

> ==>

> Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki had made

> so much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the four

> brothers have shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9 houses

> away from others, a watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More

> poignantly, shatrughan has shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a normal

> and smooth life, with some victories (such as over Ilasura) in his

> credit, as against the turbulent life that Rama has suffered.

> <==

> I disagree. Valmiki Ramayana clearly indicates that in Rama's chart

> Sun is in Pisces, and it clearly states that when Lakshmana and

> Satrukhna were born Sun was in Cancer. Thus the Natal chart (calling

> it D1 is wrong - because D1 means Sign and NOT natal chart) of them

> are NOT same, as you refer to. Further the Lagna also differs. For

> Rama the Lagna is Cancer, for Bharata it is Pisces, and for Lekshmana

> and Satrukhna we don't know clearly what it was. If statements

> available in, currently available Valmiki Ramayana is true - then

> Lakshmana and Satrukhana were born 4+ months after the birth of Rama

> and so the planetary positions of their chart should also differ. If

> you are of the opinion that the statement " When the children of

> Sumitra (Lakshmana and Satrukhna) were born Sun was in Cancer " present

> in current Valmiki Ramaya is wrong - then it is a different thing. Is

> that your argument?

> So in essence the natal chart itself of Rama and brothers differ,

> and naturally different results follow.

> > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> You can think anything - but for sure valimiki was unaware of

> 'Divisional charts' even though a possibility for 'Divisions' (which

> alone is supported by ancient astrological classics) exist. But then

> too certainly there is not even a single statement in Ramayana that

> shows that he (the author of that book) was even aware of divisions.

> ==>

> > As Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon is at

> > the very end of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make the Sun

> > being in the last pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the sun

> > also vargottama.

> > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which will take

> > the lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining lagnas

> > of Aries, Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6 hours -

> > not withstanding the 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt lagna a

> > possibility. In such an event, the lagna also falls in the first

> > pada of Cancer, which will make lagna also vargottama.

> <==

> First of all Visti is not part of this group and didn't say anything

> here (are you posting the same message in multiple groups?! - ok. you

> might be referring to someone in some other group). Now coming to the

> arguments about Abhijit etc.

> * For Navami to happen the distance between Sun and Moon should be

> more than 96 degrees. That means even if Moon is at the end of

> Punarvasu Nakshatra (i.e. 93 degree 20 min), the Sun should be beyond

> 2 degree 40 min from end point of Pisces. That means Sun cannot have a

> longitude more than 27 degree 20 min in Pises. [i.e. Sun will take 10

> min at least to cover Pisces]. Now Moon being in Rasi Sandhi,

> Nakshatra Sandhi and Tithi sandhi, (all showing bad results) I don't

> think we should expect that in the chart of an avatar. What ever that

> be note the points

> - Sun needs at least 10+ min to cover Pisces.

> - The Sun's longitude cannot be more than 27 degree 20 min.

> * As you rightly pointed out Sun needs 6 hours approx to cover Aries,

> Tarus & Gemini. And thus there is a possibility that the birth took

> place at Noon - possibly in Abhijit Muhurta - Provided the day was a

> near equinox day (i.e. when day and night are almost equal). Now comes

> the interesting part - the birth was in Uttarayana - so were do you

> think the equinox and solstice would be? Before the 27 degree position

> of Sun - right - what era could it be - and where was he equinox and

> solstice then - as Kaul ji rightly puts it. So the point to be noted

> is that

> - essentially the Abhijit Muhurta argument brings in to focus

> the position of Solstice in to consideration.

> What are your opinions on the same? Can it be BC 50000+ and still

> your Abhijit argument true? What do you think?

> * Another important question is - if Ra or Ke is in exaltation -

> which of them is in exaltation. I mean is it that when Ra is exalted

> then Ke also exalted, increasing the count of exaltation planets to

> SIX? Is it that Valmiki missed it? If not what is the solution to this

> 6 planet problem? If you go by the argument both Own house (Swa) and

> Exaltation (Uccha) are considered, then what is your arguments FORM

> VALMIKI RAMAYANA in support of placing Ma, Ve, Sa in some particular

> signs? Yes, I could see that even though you presented such an

> argument - but never followed it, by providing the supplementary

> evidence. What do you think about this?

> There are other doubts too - but I think this is enough for the

> current mail.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " kishore patnaik "

> <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear all,

> >

> > It is a matter of our merits that have been accumulated during our

> earlier

> > births that we are spending this Diwali in the chant of Rama, rather

> than

> > wasting our time otherwise. I wish everyone on the group a merry and

> a holy

> > Diwali.

> >

> > Srimad Ramayana is a depository of several yogic and cosmic secrets.

> For

> > eg., Sree Sundara Kanda is directly interpreted as the search of a

> yogi for

> > the Kundalini downtrodden from Sahasrara to Muladhara. In fact, when

> I have

> > raised the question, I have expected the Likes of PVR to search for an

> > answer in that angle too,.

> >

> > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki had

made so

> > much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the four

> brothers have

> > shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9 houses away from

> others, a

> > watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More poignantly,

shatrughan has

> > shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a normal and smooth life, with some

> > victories (such as over Ilasura) in his credit, as against the

turbulent

> > life that Rama has suffered.

> >

> > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> >

> > It is needless to point out that Moon of Sri Rama enjoys a

> Vargottama. As

> > Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon is at the

> very end

> > of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make the Sun being in

the last

> > pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the sun also vargottama.

> >

> > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which will

take the

> > lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining lagnas of

Aries,

> > Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6 hours - not

> withstanding the

> > 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt lagna a possibility. In such

> an event

> > , the lagna also falls in the first pada of Cancer, which will make

> lagna

> > also vargottama.

> >

> > Now, I leave to the Group to discuss further if I am missing

something.

> >

> > regards,

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> > 98492 70729

> >

>

November 9, 2007

Shri Sreenadh ji,

Namaskar!

<I request you to look in to the following argument and

possibilities ->

On the other hand I reqeuswt all of you to ponder on the following

facts, even if they are unpleasant:

1. The Valmiki Ramayana is supposed to be Aadi Mahakavya i.e. the

very first Mahakavya (Epic) of Indian history and Maharshi Valamiki

is known as Aadi Kavi.

2. The Mahabharata is a much later work.

3. Shri Rama is supposed to have incarnated much earlier than

Bhagwan Krishna.

4. Shri Krishna is supposed to have incarnaed much earlier than the

Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE

A few million dollar questions are:

a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal Shani etc. planets

in the VJ

b) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis in the Mahabharata

c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or any Mangal Shani etc.

planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas prior to the Surya

Sidhanta of the Pancha Sidhantika!

The questions arising out of these facts are:

i )How come we find the horoscopic details of Bhagwan Rama, Bharata,

Shatruna and even Lakshamana in the Valmiki Ramayana?

ii) How come in spite of the best efforts of all the astronomers

nobody has been able to reconcile the irreconcilable facts that if

Bhagwan Rama was born in Sun in Mesha and Moon in Karakta in

Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been Navmki tithi or vice-

versa?

iii) The sun could never be in Mesha -- whether the so called sayana

or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu Masa i.e. the first

month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth of Bhagwan Rama.

iv)The sun of the younger brothers could never have been in Karkata

if the sun of Bhagwan Rama was in Mesha or even Mina!

In a nutshell, the more we try to reconcile these irreconcilable

facts, the more we will be making a laughing stock of ourselves!

The best option, therefore, is that we must admit that these

astrological combinations in the Ramayanas are later day

interpolations by some good for nothing overzealous astrologers who

did not know even this much of astronomy that if the sun of Bhagwan

Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could never have been in

Karkata just after two days in the case of His siblings!

I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT JUST FOR THIS FACT THAT WE DO NOT HAVE A

HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR HIM HAS INCREASED SINCE IT

MEANS THAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA KARTUM SAMARTH AND

NOT SUBJECT TO PLANETARY SUZARINITY!

And the tail-piece of all this haranguing is that it means clearly

that Rishis like Valmiki nad the Veda Vayasa etc. did not believe in

any pedictive gimmicks either.

With regards,

Avtar Krishen Kaul

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kaul ji, Kishor ji, Finn ji,

> I request you to look in to the following argument and

possibilities -

> * The Yaga started at the beginning of Vasanta Ritu. And

possibly

> ended near the end of Vasanta Ritu. In the 12th Nakshatra month

from

> the end date of Yaga reached (i.e. when 280+ days, the normal

period

> of pregnancy is completed), and when the year was going to be

> completed, Rama and brothers where born.

> * From the mention of Navami Tithi and Punarvasu nakshatra it is

> clear that Moon was some where near 27 degrees in Pisces.

> * It is at the Vishu date (i.e. when Sun is in the vernal

equinox)

> that Vasanta Ritu bigins.

> * Considering the above 3 points it is clear that VERNAL EQUINOX

> WAS SOMEWHERE AFTER (NEAR) 27 DEGREE PISCES at the time of birth of

> Rama! Can we have a bit more clarify on this? Let us consider the

> following point -

> * Possibly, from the beginning of Vasnata Ritu, it is after, 60

> days (Vasata Ritu) + 280 days = 340 days, that Rama was born.

> Completion of the year could take approximately 365.2425 - 340 =

> 25.2425 days more. Means the Ayanamsa (if at all used) was must

tally

> with this. In any case it is clear that " at the time of Rama's

birth

> Sun was between solstice and vernal equinox " ! (Because the next

> Vasnata Ritu was yet to bigin)

> So what is the important derivation and conclusion? Here it is -

> * If this is the case, certainly either -

> 1)it is the description of a recent planetary position

(possibly

> between 250 BC and 250 AD) OR

> 2)the description of a planetary position at least 26000

years

> before!

> Because the same position of equinox can repeat only after

26000

> years aprox.

> I discard the 2nd choice simply as absurd and impossible -

> considering out understanding of the archeological and linguistic

> history of ancient india.

> So the revelation is that - the planetary position given in

Ramayana

> is the description of a RECENT planetary position - possibly

between

> 250 BC and 250 AD!! (It is the possible period of origin indicated

by

> various references present in Valmiki Ramayana itself). Is there

any

> year during this period which satisfies the conditions - provided

in

> the text? The points that should become true are -

> * 5 planets should be either in own sign or exaltation.

> * Jupitor and Moon should be in Cancer

> * It should be Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> The extra points that could be considered are -

> * The word 'Lagna' could means 'Sign' as well. Therefore it is

NOT

> necessary that Rama's Asc should be Cancer. (But if it is so, in

all

> the slokas present in Valmiki Ramayana the word 'Lagna' should mean

> 'Sign' itself)

> * The word 'Prasanna dhee' used in Bharata's chart could mean

> Mercury.

> * Since Valmiki Ramayana follows the Vedic path, as could be

> naturally expected, it could be a Tropical horoscope instead of a

> Nirayana horoscope.

> Is there a possible year in between BC 250 and AD 250 that

> satisfies these conditions? Could it be: -157 or I request Kaul ji

> and others to verify the following planetary position and the

possible

> date, using Tropical Zodiac-

> * Ju and Moon in Cancer

> * Sun and Me in Pisces

> * Sa in Aquarious

> * Ma in Capricon

> * Ve in Tarus

> * Ra & Ke in Ge-Sg axis

> * Asc Scorpio!

> * Suklapaksha Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> Note that all the conditions given in the text Ramayana becomes

true,

> it the following planetary position is possible. For example -

> * Ma, Sa, Ve are in own sign & Ju, Ma are in exaltation - making

5

> planets in own sign or exaltation.

> * The tithi is Suklapaksha Navami and Nakshatra Punarvasu.

> All the statements given in the text Ramayana could be right, it

the

> above planetary position is possible (please confirm it - whether

it

> is possible or not, by checking yourself). But then it becomes

clear

> that the word 'Lagna' is used in Ramayana with the meaning 'Sign',

and

> the word 'Prasanna dhee' to denote 'Mercury'.

> I might have committed several mistakes in the above

derivations, so

> before confirming it, I am waiting for the response from the

learned

> scholars.

> Note: Possibly I haven't yet done my homework right, so pardon

me if

> I have committed mistakes in the above argumentation.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > ==>

> > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki had

made

> > so much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the four

> > brothers have shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9

houses

> > away from others, a watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More

> > poignantly, shatrughan has shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a

normal

> > and smooth life, with some victories (such as over Ilasura) in

his

> > credit, as against the turbulent life that Rama has suffered.

> > <==

> > I disagree. Valmiki Ramayana clearly indicates that in Rama's

chart

> > Sun is in Pisces, and it clearly states that when Lakshmana and

> > Satrukhna were born Sun was in Cancer. Thus the Natal chart

(calling

> > it D1 is wrong - because D1 means Sign and NOT natal chart) of

them

> > are NOT same, as you refer to. Further the Lagna also differs.

For

> > Rama the Lagna is Cancer, for Bharata it is Pisces, and for

Lekshmana

> > and Satrukhna we don't know clearly what it was. If statements

> > available in, currently available Valmiki Ramayana is true - then

> > Lakshmana and Satrukhana were born 4+ months after the birth of

Rama

> > and so the planetary positions of their chart should also

differ. If

> > you are of the opinion that the statement " When the children of

> > Sumitra (Lakshmana and Satrukhna) were born Sun was in Cancer "

present

> > in current Valmiki Ramaya is wrong - then it is a different

thing. Is

> > that your argument?

> > So in essence the natal chart itself of Rama and brothers

differ,

> > and naturally different results follow.

> > > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> > You can think anything - but for sure valimiki was unaware of

> > 'Divisional charts' even though a possibility for 'Divisions'

(which

> > alone is supported by ancient astrological classics) exist. But

then

> > too certainly there is not even a single statement in Ramayana

that

> > shows that he (the author of that book) was even aware of

divisions.

> > ==>

> > > As Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon

is at

> > > the very end of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make

the Sun

> > > being in the last pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the

sun

> > > also vargottama.

> > > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which

will take

> > > the lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining

lagnas

> > > of Aries, Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6

hours -

> > > not withstanding the 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt

lagna a

> > > possibility. In such an event, the lagna also falls in the

first

> > > pada of Cancer, which will make lagna also vargottama.

> > <==

> > First of all Visti is not part of this group and didn't say

anything

> > here (are you posting the same message in multiple groups?! -

ok. you

> > might be referring to someone in some other group). Now coming

to the

> > arguments about Abhijit etc.

> > * For Navami to happen the distance between Sun and Moon

should be

> > more than 96 degrees. That means even if Moon is at the end of

> > Punarvasu Nakshatra (i.e. 93 degree 20 min), the Sun should be

beyond

> > 2 degree 40 min from end point of Pisces. That means Sun cannot

have a

> > longitude more than 27 degree 20 min in Pises. [i.e. Sun will

take 10

> > min at least to cover Pisces]. Now Moon being in Rasi Sandhi,

> > Nakshatra Sandhi and Tithi sandhi, (all showing bad results) I

don't

> > think we should expect that in the chart of an avatar. What ever

that

> > be note the points

> > - Sun needs at least 10+ min to cover Pisces.

> > - The Sun's longitude cannot be more than 27 degree 20

min.

> > * As you rightly pointed out Sun needs 6 hours approx to cover

Aries,

> > Tarus & Gemini. And thus there is a possibility that the birth

took

> > place at Noon - possibly in Abhijit Muhurta - Provided the day

was a

> > near equinox day (i.e. when day and night are almost equal). Now

comes

> > the interesting part - the birth was in Uttarayana - so were do

you

> > think the equinox and solstice would be? Before the 27 degree

position

> > of Sun - right - what era could it be - and where was he equinox

and

> > solstice then - as Kaul ji rightly puts it. So the point to be

noted

> > is that

> > - essentially the Abhijit Muhurta argument brings in to

focus

> > the position of Solstice in to consideration.

> > What are your opinions on the same? Can it be BC 50000+ and

still

> > your Abhijit argument true? What do you think?

> > * Another important question is - if Ra or Ke is in

exaltation -

> > which of them is in exaltation. I mean is it that when Ra is

exalted

> > then Ke also exalted, increasing the count of exaltation planets

to

> > SIX? Is it that Valmiki missed it? If not what is the solution

to this

> > 6 planet problem? If you go by the argument both Own house (Swa)

and

> > Exaltation (Uccha) are considered, then what is your arguments

FORM

> > VALMIKI RAMAYANA in support of placing Ma, Ve, Sa in some

particular

> > signs? Yes, I could see that even though you presented such an

> > argument - but never followed it, by providing the supplementary

> > evidence. What do you think about this?

> > There are other doubts too - but I think this is enough for the

> > current mail.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " kishore

patnaik "

> > <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear all,

> > >

> > > It is a matter of our merits that have been accumulated

during our

> > earlier

> > > births that we are spending this Diwali in the chant of Rama,

rather

> > than

> > > wasting our time otherwise. I wish everyone on the group a

merry and

> > a holy

> > > Diwali.

> > >

> > > Srimad Ramayana is a depository of several yogic and cosmic

secrets.

> > For

> > > eg., Sree Sundara Kanda is directly interpreted as the search

of a

> > yogi for

> > > the Kundalini downtrodden from Sahasrara to Muladhara. In

fact, when

> > I have

> > > raised the question, I have expected the Likes of PVR to

search for an

> > > answer in that angle too,.

> > >

> > > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki

had

> made so

> > > much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the four

> > brothers have

> > > shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9 houses away

from

> > others, a

> > > watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More poignantly,

> shatrughan has

> > > shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a normal and smooth life,

with some

> > > victories (such as over Ilasura) in his credit, as against the

> turbulent

> > > life that Rama has suffered.

> > >

> > > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> > >

> > > It is needless to point out that Moon of Sri Rama enjoys a

> > Vargottama. As

> > > Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon is

at the

> > very end

> > > of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make the Sun being in

> the last

> > > pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the sun also

vargottama.

> > >

> > > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which will

> take the

> > > lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining lagnas

of

> Aries,

> > > Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6 hours - not

> > withstanding the

> > > 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt lagna a possibility. In

such

> > an event

> > > , the lagna also falls in the first pada of Cancer, which will

make

> > lagna

> > > also vargottama.

> > >

> > > Now, I leave to the Group to discuss further if I am missing

> something.

> > >

> > > regards,

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > > 98492 70729

> > >

> >

>

November 9, 2007

Dear Kaul ji,

==>

> The best option, therefore, is that we must admit that these

> astrological combinations in the Ramayanas are later day

> interpolations

<==

Then why don't with a better spirit accept that the whole ramayana

itself is a made up text created between 2nd BC and 2 AD? With the

numerous dereference to Buddha & Jain religions, Ardhasastra (of

Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I believe that it is clear

that it is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD for sure - or better

in 2AD in Sunga period itself.

There is no wonder that the astrological reference in Ramayana is

utterly wrong and seems to be made up and in the line of all the

Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly superstitions. Actually that

only can be expected from such a text that is NOT AT ALL written by

sage Valmiki, but possibly by some stupid brahmins of sunga period.

What else do you think can be expected from such a text?!!

So I will request you to better accept the fact that - The whole

Ramayana itself is a made up text - a text created with a purpose -

created between 2nd century BC and 2nd century AD. Even the

astronomical references in it is going in the same direction. If there

WAS a Valmiki Ramayana prior to the currently available one (as

referenced in Mahabharata), then that text is buried in dept by the

political and religious fanatics who had a purpose and wanted to

project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by calling Buddha a thief

and mass murdering Buddists. It was the hall make of that era (BC 200

to AD 200), and evident from many other literary works as well.

So instead of going against astrologers - how about going against

and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures who in a futile

effort to spread Animal killing, and brahmin projecting, Yaga

services, - rewrote all the good old ancient scripts and even tried to

steel and accommodate even the non-vedic astrological signs also into

scripts that propagated such vedic rituals? Isn't it that Ramayana is

also a clear proof of the same?

I believe - this would be more logically acceptable path, with

enough evidence in support.

Endnote: Ramayana is a made-up text. Not at all authentic. Giving it

importance more than a simple literary work is ignorance. Rama is god

or not is irrelevant in an academic discussion of a made up text like

Ramayana. Ramayana is a text which is NOT written by Valmiki for sure

- he cannot be such a corrupted, full of partiality and hatred

influenced, ignorant individual. Sage Valmiki was a great

knowledgeable sage as evident from Yoga Vasishta, and ascribing the

authorship of a text like currently available Ramayana on him is a

SIN, and an insult of that great sage.

I wil better adopt this line of thinking.

Love,

Sreenadh

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

>

> Shri Sreenadh ji,

> Namaskar!

> <I request you to look in to the following argument and

> possibilities ->

>

> On the other hand I reqeuswt all of you to ponder on the following

> facts, even if they are unpleasant:

>

> 1. The Valmiki Ramayana is supposed to be Aadi Mahakavya i.e. the

> very first Mahakavya (Epic) of Indian history and Maharshi Valamiki

> is known as Aadi Kavi.

>

> 2. The Mahabharata is a much later work.

>

> 3. Shri Rama is supposed to have incarnated much earlier than

> Bhagwan Krishna.

>

> 4. Shri Krishna is supposed to have incarnaed much earlier than the

> Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE

>

> A few million dollar questions are:

> a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal Shani etc. planets

> in the VJ

> b) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis in the Mahabharata

>

> c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or any Mangal Shani etc.

> planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas prior to the Surya

> Sidhanta of the Pancha Sidhantika!

> The questions arising out of these facts are:

>

> i )How come we find the horoscopic details of Bhagwan Rama, Bharata,

> Shatruna and even Lakshamana in the Valmiki Ramayana?

>

> ii) How come in spite of the best efforts of all the astronomers

> nobody has been able to reconcile the irreconcilable facts that if

> Bhagwan Rama was born in Sun in Mesha and Moon in Karakta in

> Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been Navmki tithi or vice-

> versa?

> iii) The sun could never be in Mesha -- whether the so called sayana

> or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu Masa i.e. the first

> month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth of Bhagwan Rama.

>

> iv)The sun of the younger brothers could never have been in Karkata

> if the sun of Bhagwan Rama was in Mesha or even Mina!

>

> In a nutshell, the more we try to reconcile these irreconcilable

> facts, the more we will be making a laughing stock of ourselves!

>

> The best option, therefore, is that we must admit that these

> astrological combinations in the Ramayanas are later day

> interpolations by some good for nothing overzealous astrologers who

> did not know even this much of astronomy that if the sun of Bhagwan

> Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could never have been in

> Karkata just after two days in the case of His siblings!

>

> I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT JUST FOR THIS FACT THAT WE DO NOT HAVE A

> HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR HIM HAS INCREASED SINCE IT

> MEANS THAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA KARTUM SAMARTH AND

> NOT SUBJECT TO PLANETARY SUZARINITY!

>

> And the tail-piece of all this haranguing is that it means clearly

> that Rishis like Valmiki nad the Veda Vayasa etc. did not believe in

> any pedictive gimmicks either.

> With regards,

> Avtar Krishen Kaul

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kaul ji, Kishor ji, Finn ji,

> > I request you to look in to the following argument and

> possibilities -

> > * The Yaga started at the beginning of Vasanta Ritu. And

> possibly

> > ended near the end of Vasanta Ritu. In the 12th Nakshatra month

> from

> > the end date of Yaga reached (i.e. when 280+ days, the normal

> period

> > of pregnancy is completed), and when the year was going to be

> > completed, Rama and brothers where born.

> > * From the mention of Navami Tithi and Punarvasu nakshatra it is

> > clear that Moon was some where near 27 degrees in Pisces.

> > * It is at the Vishu date (i.e. when Sun is in the vernal

> equinox)

> > that Vasanta Ritu bigins.

> > * Considering the above 3 points it is clear that VERNAL EQUINOX

> > WAS SOMEWHERE AFTER (NEAR) 27 DEGREE PISCES at the time of birth of

> > Rama! Can we have a bit more clarify on this? Let us consider the

> > following point -

> > * Possibly, from the beginning of Vasnata Ritu, it is after, 60

> > days (Vasata Ritu) + 280 days = 340 days, that Rama was born.

> > Completion of the year could take approximately 365.2425 - 340 =

> > 25.2425 days more. Means the Ayanamsa (if at all used) was must

> tally

> > with this. In any case it is clear that " at the time of Rama's

> birth

> > Sun was between solstice and vernal equinox " ! (Because the next

> > Vasnata Ritu was yet to bigin)

> > So what is the important derivation and conclusion? Here it is -

> > * If this is the case, certainly either -

> > 1)it is the description of a recent planetary position

> (possibly

> > between 250 BC and 250 AD) OR

> > 2)the description of a planetary position at least 26000

> years

> > before!

> > Because the same position of equinox can repeat only after

> 26000

> > years aprox.

> > I discard the 2nd choice simply as absurd and impossible -

> > considering out understanding of the archeological and linguistic

> > history of ancient india.

> > So the revelation is that - the planetary position given in

> Ramayana

> > is the description of a RECENT planetary position - possibly

> between

> > 250 BC and 250 AD!! (It is the possible period of origin indicated

> by

> > various references present in Valmiki Ramayana itself). Is there

> any

> > year during this period which satisfies the conditions - provided

> in

> > the text? The points that should become true are -

> > * 5 planets should be either in own sign or exaltation.

> > * Jupitor and Moon should be in Cancer

> > * It should be Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> > The extra points that could be considered are -

> > * The word 'Lagna' could means 'Sign' as well. Therefore it is

> NOT

> > necessary that Rama's Asc should be Cancer. (But if it is so, in

> all

> > the slokas present in Valmiki Ramayana the word 'Lagna' should mean

> > 'Sign' itself)

> > * The word 'Prasanna dhee' used in Bharata's chart could mean

> > Mercury.

> > * Since Valmiki Ramayana follows the Vedic path, as could be

> > naturally expected, it could be a Tropical horoscope instead of a

> > Nirayana horoscope.

> > Is there a possible year in between BC 250 and AD 250 that

> > satisfies these conditions? Could it be: -157 or I request Kaul ji

> > and others to verify the following planetary position and the

> possible

> > date, using Tropical Zodiac-

> > * Ju and Moon in Cancer

> > * Sun and Me in Pisces

> > * Sa in Aquarious

> > * Ma in Capricon

> > * Ve in Tarus

> > * Ra & Ke in Ge-Sg axis

> > * Asc Scorpio!

> > * Suklapaksha Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> > Note that all the conditions given in the text Ramayana becomes

> true,

> > it the following planetary position is possible. For example -

> > * Ma, Sa, Ve are in own sign & Ju, Ma are in exaltation - making

> 5

> > planets in own sign or exaltation.

> > * The tithi is Suklapaksha Navami and Nakshatra Punarvasu.

> > All the statements given in the text Ramayana could be right, it

> the

> > above planetary position is possible (please confirm it - whether

> it

> > is possible or not, by checking yourself). But then it becomes

> clear

> > that the word 'Lagna' is used in Ramayana with the meaning 'Sign',

> and

> > the word 'Prasanna dhee' to denote 'Mercury'.

> > I might have committed several mistakes in the above

> derivations, so

> > before confirming it, I am waiting for the response from the

> learned

> > scholars.

> > Note: Possibly I haven't yet done my homework right, so pardon

> me if

> > I have committed mistakes in the above argumentation.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " Sreenadh "

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > ==>

> > > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki had

> made

> > > so much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the four

> > > brothers have shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9

> houses

> > > away from others, a watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More

> > > poignantly, shatrughan has shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a

> normal

> > > and smooth life, with some victories (such as over Ilasura) in

> his

> > > credit, as against the turbulent life that Rama has suffered.

> > > <==

> > > I disagree. Valmiki Ramayana clearly indicates that in Rama's

> chart

> > > Sun is in Pisces, and it clearly states that when Lakshmana and

> > > Satrukhna were born Sun was in Cancer. Thus the Natal chart

> (calling

> > > it D1 is wrong - because D1 means Sign and NOT natal chart) of

> them

> > > are NOT same, as you refer to. Further the Lagna also differs.

> For

> > > Rama the Lagna is Cancer, for Bharata it is Pisces, and for

> Lekshmana

> > > and Satrukhna we don't know clearly what it was. If statements

> > > available in, currently available Valmiki Ramayana is true - then

> > > Lakshmana and Satrukhana were born 4+ months after the birth of

> Rama

> > > and so the planetary positions of their chart should also

> differ. If

> > > you are of the opinion that the statement " When the children of

> > > Sumitra (Lakshmana and Satrukhna) were born Sun was in Cancer "

> present

> > > in current Valmiki Ramaya is wrong - then it is a different

> thing. Is

> > > that your argument?

> > > So in essence the natal chart itself of Rama and brothers

> differ,

> > > and naturally different results follow.

> > > > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> > > You can think anything - but for sure valimiki was unaware of

> > > 'Divisional charts' even though a possibility for 'Divisions'

> (which

> > > alone is supported by ancient astrological classics) exist. But

> then

> > > too certainly there is not even a single statement in Ramayana

> that

> > > shows that he (the author of that book) was even aware of

> divisions.

> > > ==>

> > > > As Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon

> is at

> > > > the very end of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make

> the Sun

> > > > being in the last pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the

> sun

> > > > also vargottama.

> > > > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which

> will take

> > > > the lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining

> lagnas

> > > > of Aries, Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6

> hours -

> > > > not withstanding the 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt

> lagna a

> > > > possibility. In such an event, the lagna also falls in the

> first

> > > > pada of Cancer, which will make lagna also vargottama.

> > > <==

> > > First of all Visti is not part of this group and didn't say

> anything

> > > here (are you posting the same message in multiple groups?! -

> ok. you

> > > might be referring to someone in some other group). Now coming

> to the

> > > arguments about Abhijit etc.

> > > * For Navami to happen the distance between Sun and Moon

> should be

> > > more than 96 degrees. That means even if Moon is at the end of

> > > Punarvasu Nakshatra (i.e. 93 degree 20 min), the Sun should be

> beyond

> > > 2 degree 40 min from end point of Pisces. That means Sun cannot

> have a

> > > longitude more than 27 degree 20 min in Pises. [i.e. Sun will

> take 10

> > > min at least to cover Pisces]. Now Moon being in Rasi Sandhi,

> > > Nakshatra Sandhi and Tithi sandhi, (all showing bad results) I

> don't

> > > think we should expect that in the chart of an avatar. What ever

> that

> > > be note the points

> > > - Sun needs at least 10+ min to cover Pisces.

> > > - The Sun's longitude cannot be more than 27 degree 20

> min.

> > > * As you rightly pointed out Sun needs 6 hours approx to cover

> Aries,

> > > Tarus & Gemini. And thus there is a possibility that the birth

> took

> > > place at Noon - possibly in Abhijit Muhurta - Provided the day

> was a

> > > near equinox day (i.e. when day and night are almost equal). Now

> comes

> > > the interesting part - the birth was in Uttarayana - so were do

> you

> > > think the equinox and solstice would be? Before the 27 degree

> position

> > > of Sun - right - what era could it be - and where was he equinox

> and

> > > solstice then - as Kaul ji rightly puts it. So the point to be

> noted

> > > is that

> > > - essentially the Abhijit Muhurta argument brings in to

> focus

> > > the position of Solstice in to consideration.

> > > What are your opinions on the same? Can it be BC 50000+ and

> still

> > > your Abhijit argument true? What do you think?

> > > * Another important question is - if Ra or Ke is in

> exaltation -

> > > which of them is in exaltation. I mean is it that when Ra is

> exalted

> > > then Ke also exalted, increasing the count of exaltation planets

> to

> > > SIX? Is it that Valmiki missed it? If not what is the solution

> to this

> > > 6 planet problem? If you go by the argument both Own house (Swa)

> and

> > > Exaltation (Uccha) are considered, then what is your arguments

> FORM

> > > VALMIKI RAMAYANA in support of placing Ma, Ve, Sa in some

> particular

> > > signs? Yes, I could see that even though you presented such an

> > > argument - but never followed it, by providing the supplementary

> > > evidence. What do you think about this?

> > > There are other doubts too - but I think this is enough for the

> > > current mail.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > , " kishore

> patnaik "

> > > <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear all,

> > > >

> > > > It is a matter of our merits that have been accumulated

> during our

> > > earlier

> > > > births that we are spending this Diwali in the chant of Rama,

> rather

> > > than

> > > > wasting our time otherwise. I wish everyone on the group a

> merry and

> > > a holy

> > > > Diwali.

> > > >

> > > > Srimad Ramayana is a depository of several yogic and cosmic

> secrets.

> > > For

> > > > eg., Sree Sundara Kanda is directly interpreted as the search

> of a

> > > yogi for

> > > > the Kundalini downtrodden from Sahasrara to Muladhara. In

> fact, when

> > > I have

> > > > raised the question, I have expected the Likes of PVR to

> search for an

> > > > answer in that angle too,.

> > > >

> > > > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki

> had

> > made so

> > > > much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the four

> > > brothers have

> > > > shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9 houses away

> from

> > > others, a

> > > > watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More poignantly,

> > shatrughan has

> > > > shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a normal and smooth life,

> with some

> > > > victories (such as over Ilasura) in his credit, as against the

> > turbulent

> > > > life that Rama has suffered.

> > > >

> > > > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> > > >

> > > > It is needless to point out that Moon of Sri Rama enjoys a

> > > Vargottama. As

> > > > Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon is

> at the

> > > very end

> > > > of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make the Sun being in

> > the last

> > > > pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the sun also

> vargottama.

> > > >

> > > > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which will

> > take the

> > > > lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining lagnas

> of

> > Aries,

> > > > Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6 hours - not

> > > withstanding the

> > > > 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt lagna a possibility. In

> such

> > > an event

> > > > , the lagna also falls in the first pada of Cancer, which will

> make

> > > lagna

> > > > also vargottama.

> > > >

> > > > Now, I leave to the Group to discuss further if I am missing

> > something.

> > > >

> > > > regards,

> > > >

> > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > 98492 70729

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 9, 2007

Shri Sreenadh ji,

Namaskar!

<Actually that only can be expected from such a text that is NOT AT

ALL written by sage Valmiki, but possibly by some stupid brahmins of

sunga period.

What else do you think can be expected from such a text?!!>

You are exceeding your brief!

This forum is concerned with " ancient indian astrology " or the lack

of it i.e. astrology in ancient India. As such, you have no right

to discuss extraneous matters/issues on this forum because not

all " jyotishis " are equipped to give you a befitting reply.

As such, please confine your discussions just to what this forum is

meant for i.e. astrology or the lack of it in ancient India.

Since astrology cannot exist/survive without astronomy, as such,

astronomical topics are necessary adjuncts to thos discussions.

Regards.

AKK

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kaul ji,

> ==>

> > The best option, therefore, is that we must admit that these

> > astrological combinations in the Ramayanas are later day

> > interpolations

> <==

> Then why don't with a better spirit accept that the whole

ramayana

> itself is a made up text created between 2nd BC and 2 AD? With

the

> numerous dereference to Buddha & Jain religions, Ardhasastra (of

> Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I believe that it is

clear

> that it is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD for sure - or

better

> in 2AD in Sunga period itself.

> There is no wonder that the astrological reference in Ramayana is

> utterly wrong and seems to be made up and in the line of all the

> Animal mass murder yagas and many ugly superstitions. Actually that

> only can be expected from such a text that is NOT AT ALL written by

> sage Valmiki, but possibly by some stupid brahmins of sunga period.

> What else do you think can be expected from such a text?!!

> So I will request you to better accept the fact that - The whole

> Ramayana itself is a made up text - a text created with a purpose -

> created between 2nd century BC and 2nd century AD. Even the

> astronomical references in it is going in the same direction. If

there

> WAS a Valmiki Ramayana prior to the currently available one (as

> referenced in Mahabharata), then that text is buried in dept by the

> political and religious fanatics who had a purpose and wanted to

> project brahmanic and vedic prejudices even by calling Buddha a

thief

> and mass murdering Buddists. It was the hall make of that era (BC

200

> to AD 200), and evident from many other literary works as well.

> So instead of going against astrologers - how about going against

> and start cursing - the corrupters of scriptures who in a futile

> effort to spread Animal killing, and brahmin projecting, Yaga

> services, - rewrote all the good old ancient scripts and even

tried to

> steel and accommodate even the non-vedic astrological signs also

into

> scripts that propagated such vedic rituals? Isn't it that Ramayana

is

> also a clear proof of the same?

> I believe - this would be more logically acceptable path, with

> enough evidence in support.

> Endnote: Ramayana is a made-up text. Not at all authentic.

Giving it

> importance more than a simple literary work is ignorance. Rama is

god

> or not is irrelevant in an academic discussion of a made up text

like

> Ramayana. Ramayana is a text which is NOT written by Valmiki for

sure

> - he cannot be such a corrupted, full of partiality and hatred

> influenced, ignorant individual. Sage Valmiki was a great

> knowledgeable sage as evident from Yoga Vasishta, and ascribing the

> authorship of a text like currently available Ramayana on him is a

> SIN, and an insult of that great sage.

> I wil better adopt this line of thinking.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Avtar Krishen

Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Shri Sreenadh ji,

> > Namaskar!

> > <I request you to look in to the following argument and

> > possibilities ->

> >

> > On the other hand I reqeuswt all of you to ponder on the

following

> > facts, even if they are unpleasant:

> >

> > 1. The Valmiki Ramayana is supposed to be Aadi Mahakavya i.e.

the

> > very first Mahakavya (Epic) of Indian history and Maharshi

Valamiki

> > is known as Aadi Kavi.

> >

> > 2. The Mahabharata is a much later work.

> >

> > 3. Shri Rama is supposed to have incarnated much earlier than

> > Bhagwan Krishna.

> >

> > 4. Shri Krishna is supposed to have incarnaed much earlier than

the

> > Vedanga Jyotisha period -- 14th century BCE

> >

> > A few million dollar questions are:

> > a) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal Shani etc.

planets

> > in the VJ

> > b) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis in the Mahabharata

> >

> > c) We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis or any Mangal Shani etc.

> > planets in any of the indigenous sidhantas prior to the Surya

> > Sidhanta of the Pancha Sidhantika!

> > The questions arising out of these facts are:

> >

> > i )How come we find the horoscopic details of Bhagwan Rama,

Bharata,

> > Shatruna and even Lakshamana in the Valmiki Ramayana?

> >

> > ii) How come in spite of the best efforts of all the

astronomers

> > nobody has been able to reconcile the irreconcilable facts that

if

> > Bhagwan Rama was born in Sun in Mesha and Moon in Karakta in

> > Punarvasu nakshatra, it could never have been Navmki tithi or

vice-

> > versa?

> > iii) The sun could never be in Mesha -- whether the so called

sayana

> > or the so called nirayana --- if it was Madhu Masa i.e. the

first

> > month of the Vasanta Ritu at the time of birth of Bhagwan Rama.

> >

> > iv)The sun of the younger brothers could never have been in

Karkata

> > if the sun of Bhagwan Rama was in Mesha or even Mina!

> >

> > In a nutshell, the more we try to reconcile these irreconcilable

> > facts, the more we will be making a laughing stock of ourselves!

> >

> > The best option, therefore, is that we must admit that these

> > astrological combinations in the Ramayanas are later day

> > interpolations by some good for nothing overzealous astrologers

who

> > did not know even this much of astronomy that if the sun of

Bhagwan

> > Rama was in Mesha (or even in Mina) it could never have been in

> > Karkata just after two days in the case of His siblings!

> >

> > I MUST PUT ON RECORD THAT JUST FOR THIS FACT THAT WE DO NOT HAVE

A

> > HOROSCOPE OF BHAGWAN RAM, MY ESTEEM FOR HIM HAS INCREASED SINCE

IT

> > MEANS THAT HE WAS REALLY KARTUM AKARTUM ANYATHA KARTUM SAMARTH

AND

> > NOT SUBJECT TO PLANETARY SUZARINITY!

> >

> > And the tail-piece of all this haranguing is that it means

clearly

> > that Rishis like Valmiki nad the Veda Vayasa etc. did not

believe in

> > any pedictive gimmicks either.

> > With regards,

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul

> >

> > , " Sreenadh "

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kaul ji, Kishor ji, Finn ji,

> > > I request you to look in to the following argument and

> > possibilities -

> > > * The Yaga started at the beginning of Vasanta Ritu. And

> > possibly

> > > ended near the end of Vasanta Ritu. In the 12th Nakshatra

month

> > from

> > > the end date of Yaga reached (i.e. when 280+ days, the normal

> > period

> > > of pregnancy is completed), and when the year was going to be

> > > completed, Rama and brothers where born.

> > > * From the mention of Navami Tithi and Punarvasu nakshatra

it is

> > > clear that Moon was some where near 27 degrees in Pisces.

> > > * It is at the Vishu date (i.e. when Sun is in the vernal

> > equinox)

> > > that Vasanta Ritu bigins.

> > > * Considering the above 3 points it is clear that VERNAL

EQUINOX

> > > WAS SOMEWHERE AFTER (NEAR) 27 DEGREE PISCES at the time of

birth of

> > > Rama! Can we have a bit more clarify on this? Let us consider

the

> > > following point -

> > > * Possibly, from the beginning of Vasnata Ritu, it is

after, 60

> > > days (Vasata Ritu) + 280 days = 340 days, that Rama was born.

> > > Completion of the year could take approximately 365.2425 - 340

=

> > > 25.2425 days more. Means the Ayanamsa (if at all used) was

must

> > tally

> > > with this. In any case it is clear that " at the time of Rama's

> > birth

> > > Sun was between solstice and vernal equinox " ! (Because the next

> > > Vasnata Ritu was yet to bigin)

> > > So what is the important derivation and conclusion? Here it

is -

> > > * If this is the case, certainly either -

> > > 1)it is the description of a recent planetary position

> > (possibly

> > > between 250 BC and 250 AD) OR

> > > 2)the description of a planetary position at least 26000

> > years

> > > before!

> > > Because the same position of equinox can repeat only after

> > 26000

> > > years aprox.

> > > I discard the 2nd choice simply as absurd and impossible -

> > > considering out understanding of the archeological and

linguistic

> > > history of ancient india.

> > > So the revelation is that - the planetary position given in

> > Ramayana

> > > is the description of a RECENT planetary position - possibly

> > between

> > > 250 BC and 250 AD!! (It is the possible period of origin

indicated

> > by

> > > various references present in Valmiki Ramayana itself). Is

there

> > any

> > > year during this period which satisfies the conditions -

provided

> > in

> > > the text? The points that should become true are -

> > > * 5 planets should be either in own sign or exaltation.

> > > * Jupitor and Moon should be in Cancer

> > > * It should be Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> > > The extra points that could be considered are -

> > > * The word 'Lagna' could means 'Sign' as well. Therefore it

is

> > NOT

> > > necessary that Rama's Asc should be Cancer. (But if it is so,

in

> > all

> > > the slokas present in Valmiki Ramayana the word 'Lagna' should

mean

> > > 'Sign' itself)

> > > * The word 'Prasanna dhee' used in Bharata's chart could

mean

> > > Mercury.

> > > * Since Valmiki Ramayana follows the Vedic path, as could be

> > > naturally expected, it could be a Tropical horoscope instead

of a

> > > Nirayana horoscope.

> > > Is there a possible year in between BC 250 and AD 250 that

> > > satisfies these conditions? Could it be: -157 or I request

Kaul ji

> > > and others to verify the following planetary position and the

> > possible

> > > date, using Tropical Zodiac-

> > > * Ju and Moon in Cancer

> > > * Sun and Me in Pisces

> > > * Sa in Aquarious

> > > * Ma in Capricon

> > > * Ve in Tarus

> > > * Ra & Ke in Ge-Sg axis

> > > * Asc Scorpio!

> > > * Suklapaksha Navami Tithi and Punarvasu Nakshatra

> > > Note that all the conditions given in the text Ramayana

becomes

> > true,

> > > it the following planetary position is possible. For example -

> > > * Ma, Sa, Ve are in own sign & Ju, Ma are in exaltation -

making

> > 5

> > > planets in own sign or exaltation.

> > > * The tithi is Suklapaksha Navami and Nakshatra Punarvasu.

> > > All the statements given in the text Ramayana could be

right, it

> > the

> > > above planetary position is possible (please confirm it -

whether

> > it

> > > is possible or not, by checking yourself). But then it becomes

> > clear

> > > that the word 'Lagna' is used in Ramayana with the

meaning 'Sign',

> > and

> > > the word 'Prasanna dhee' to denote 'Mercury'.

> > > I might have committed several mistakes in the above

> > derivations, so

> > > before confirming it, I am waiting for the response from the

> > learned

> > > scholars.

> > > Note: Possibly I haven't yet done my homework right, so

pardon

> > me if

> > > I have committed mistakes in the above argumentation.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > ==>

> > > > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why Valmiki

had

> > made

> > > > so much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the

four

> > > > brothers have shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna

being 9

> > houses

> > > > away from others, a watery and shubha sthana nevertheless.

More

> > > > poignantly, shatrughan has shared the same D1 yet, he

enjoyed a

> > normal

> > > > and smooth life, with some victories (such as over Ilasura)

in

> > his

> > > > credit, as against the turbulent life that Rama has suffered.

> > > > <==

> > > > I disagree. Valmiki Ramayana clearly indicates that in

Rama's

> > chart

> > > > Sun is in Pisces, and it clearly states that when Lakshmana

and

> > > > Satrukhna were born Sun was in Cancer. Thus the Natal chart

> > (calling

> > > > it D1 is wrong - because D1 means Sign and NOT natal chart)

of

> > them

> > > > are NOT same, as you refer to. Further the Lagna also

differs.

> > For

> > > > Rama the Lagna is Cancer, for Bharata it is Pisces, and for

> > Lekshmana

> > > > and Satrukhna we don't know clearly what it was. If

statements

> > > > available in, currently available Valmiki Ramayana is true -

then

> > > > Lakshmana and Satrukhana were born 4+ months after the birth

of

> > Rama

> > > > and so the planetary positions of their chart should also

> > differ. If

> > > > you are of the opinion that the statement " When the children

of

> > > > Sumitra (Lakshmana and Satrukhna) were born Sun was in

Cancer "

> > present

> > > > in current Valmiki Ramaya is wrong - then it is a different

> > thing. Is

> > > > that your argument?

> > > > So in essence the natal chart itself of Rama and brothers

> > differ,

> > > > and naturally different results follow.

> > > > > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> > > > You can think anything - but for sure valimiki was unaware

of

> > > > 'Divisional charts' even though a possibility

for 'Divisions'

> > (which

> > > > alone is supported by ancient astrological classics) exist.

But

> > then

> > > > too certainly there is not even a single statement in

Ramayana

> > that

> > > > shows that he (the author of that book) was even aware of

> > divisions.

> > > > ==>

> > > > > As Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that

moon

> > is at

> > > > > the very end of 4th pada of the asterism and this will

make

> > the Sun

> > > > > being in the last pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make

the

> > sun

> > > > > also vargottama.

> > > > > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which

> > will take

> > > > > the lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The

remaining

> > lagnas

> > > > > of Aries, Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6

> > hours -

> > > > > not withstanding the 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt

> > lagna a

> > > > > possibility. In such an event, the lagna also falls in the

> > first

> > > > > pada of Cancer, which will make lagna also vargottama.

> > > > <==

> > > > First of all Visti is not part of this group and didn't

say

> > anything

> > > > here (are you posting the same message in multiple groups?! -

> > ok. you

> > > > might be referring to someone in some other group). Now

coming

> > to the

> > > > arguments about Abhijit etc.

> > > > * For Navami to happen the distance between Sun and Moon

> > should be

> > > > more than 96 degrees. That means even if Moon is at the end

of

> > > > Punarvasu Nakshatra (i.e. 93 degree 20 min), the Sun should

be

> > beyond

> > > > 2 degree 40 min from end point of Pisces. That means Sun

cannot

> > have a

> > > > longitude more than 27 degree 20 min in Pises. [i.e. Sun

will

> > take 10

> > > > min at least to cover Pisces]. Now Moon being in Rasi Sandhi,

> > > > Nakshatra Sandhi and Tithi sandhi, (all showing bad results)

I

> > don't

> > > > think we should expect that in the chart of an avatar. What

ever

> > that

> > > > be note the points

> > > > - Sun needs at least 10+ min to cover Pisces.

> > > > - The Sun's longitude cannot be more than 27 degree

20

> > min.

> > > > * As you rightly pointed out Sun needs 6 hours approx to

cover

> > Aries,

> > > > Tarus & Gemini. And thus there is a possibility that the

birth

> > took

> > > > place at Noon - possibly in Abhijit Muhurta - Provided the

day

> > was a

> > > > near equinox day (i.e. when day and night are almost equal).

Now

> > comes

> > > > the interesting part - the birth was in Uttarayana - so were

do

> > you

> > > > think the equinox and solstice would be? Before the 27

degree

> > position

> > > > of Sun - right - what era could it be - and where was he

equinox

> > and

> > > > solstice then - as Kaul ji rightly puts it. So the point to

be

> > noted

> > > > is that

> > > > - essentially the Abhijit Muhurta argument brings in

to

> > focus

> > > > the position of Solstice in to consideration.

> > > > What are your opinions on the same? Can it be BC 50000+

and

> > still

> > > > your Abhijit argument true? What do you think?

> > > > * Another important question is - if Ra or Ke is in

> > exaltation -

> > > > which of them is in exaltation. I mean is it that when Ra is

> > exalted

> > > > then Ke also exalted, increasing the count of exaltation

planets

> > to

> > > > SIX? Is it that Valmiki missed it? If not what is the

solution

> > to this

> > > > 6 planet problem? If you go by the argument both Own house

(Swa)

> > and

> > > > Exaltation (Uccha) are considered, then what is your

arguments

> > FORM

> > > > VALMIKI RAMAYANA in support of placing Ma, Ve, Sa in some

> > particular

> > > > signs? Yes, I could see that even though you presented such

an

> > > > argument - but never followed it, by providing the

supplementary

> > > > evidence. What do you think about this?

> > > > There are other doubts too - but I think this is enough

for the

> > > > current mail.

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > > , " kishore

> > patnaik "

> > > > <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear all,

> > > > >

> > > > > It is a matter of our merits that have been accumulated

> > during our

> > > > earlier

> > > > > births that we are spending this Diwali in the chant of

Rama,

> > rather

> > > > than

> > > > > wasting our time otherwise. I wish everyone on the group a

> > merry and

> > > > a holy

> > > > > Diwali.

> > > > >

> > > > > Srimad Ramayana is a depository of several yogic and

cosmic

> > secrets.

> > > > For

> > > > > eg., Sree Sundara Kanda is directly interpreted as the

search

> > of a

> > > > yogi for

> > > > > the Kundalini downtrodden from Sahasrara to Muladhara. In

> > fact, when

> > > > I have

> > > > > raised the question, I have expected the Likes of PVR to

> > search for an

> > > > > answer in that angle too,.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, coming back to astrology, I always wondered why

Valmiki

> > had

> > > made so

> > > > > much out of the planetary positions of Rama when all the

four

> > > > brothers have

> > > > > shared the same D1, with Bharata's lagna being 9 houses

away

> > from

> > > > others, a

> > > > > watery and shubha sthana nevertheless. More poignantly,

> > > shatrughan has

> > > > > shared the same D1 yet, he enjoyed a normal and smooth

life,

> > with some

> > > > > victories (such as over Ilasura) in his credit, as against

the

> > > turbulent

> > > > > life that Rama has suffered.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the secret lies in the Divisional charts.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is needless to point out that Moon of Sri Rama enjoys a

> > > > Vargottama. As

> > > > > Visti has pointed out that it is quite possible that moon

is

> > at the

> > > > very end

> > > > > of 4th pada of the asterism and this will make the Sun

being in

> > > the last

> > > > > pada of Pisces(possibly) This will make the sun also

> > vargottama.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, sun must be betwen 27-30 degrees of the pisces, which

will

> > > take the

> > > > > lagna to complete the same in 12 minutes. The remaining

lagnas

> > of

> > > Aries,

> > > > > Tarurus and Gemini can be complete in almost 6 hours - not

> > > > withstanding the

> > > > > 12 minutes above- making the abhihjt lagna a possibility.

In

> > such

> > > > an event

> > > > > , the lagna also falls in the first pada of Cancer, which

will

> > make

> > > > lagna

> > > > > also vargottama.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, I leave to the Group to discuss further if I am

missing

> > > something.

> > > > >

> > > > > regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > 98492 70729

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 9, 2007

Dear Mr. Sreenadh & Mr. Kaul,

Perhaps one should not draw too hasty conclusions regarding the origin

of the Ramayana. If some parts of it seems to be confusing,

anachronistic, interpolated or manipulated, then it may better to

simply wait and make further investigations into the subject.

You have come up with some relevant questions regarding Ramayana's

description of the horoscopes of Rama and Krishna. If possible it may

be a good idea to compare these horoscope-descriptions to similar

descriptions from other texts.

The Garga Samhita gives a detailed description of the birth and the

horoscopes of both Rama and Krishna. I have seen this description

myself. Why not compare the description from Ramayana with the one

given in Garga Samhita? Are they similar or are there differences?

This may actually provide us with some new and relevant information.

:-)

Finn

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kaul ji,

> ==>

> > The best option, therefore, is that we must admit that these

> > astrological combinations in the Ramayanas are later day

> > interpolations

> <==

> Then why don't with a better spirit accept that the whole ramayana

> itself is a made up text created between 2nd BC and 2 AD? With the

> numerous dereference to Buddha & Jain religions, Ardhasastra (of

> Vishnugupta) etc and other numerous facts, I believe that it is clear

> that it is a text created between 2 BC and 2nd AD for sure - or better