Puranic Astrology

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh,

 

Sure, If there was a book available quoting all the astrological

information from all the Puranas, I would be the first to buy it. As a

matter of fact, I think a lot of people would buy such a book. But it

would be a big job to make the research needed for such a book.

 

Some of the Puranas are huge, some of them has got as much as 18

volumes, while the smaller ones has between 2-4 volumes. There are 18

Mahapuranas and at least the same number of minor Puranas that could

perhaps be equally important from an astrological point of view.

 

I do however agree with you, as you say, that an effort should be done

to collect and present all the scattered knowledge of astrology

present in all the Puranas in a single place - in systematic and

coherent way. Some of it would probably be very useful information.

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

 

 

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Finn ji,

> We know that the astrology given in the Puranas are totally

> scattered, bits and pieces her and there. At this juncture, some

> effort should be done by some one to collect and present all the

> scattered knowledge of astrology present in all the puranas in a

> single place - in systematic and coherent way. This is one of the jobs

> in pending - which indian astrology demands from its seekers - i feel.

> If we can initiate such an effort here in this forum that would be

> great! Please share your views.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Finn Wandahl "

> <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Avtar Krishen Kaul,

> >

> > >>So far so good! At least you seem to have come around to this

> > unpleasant truth!<<

> >

> >

> > The truth is the truth, no matter if it is unpleasant or not. For the

> > correct understanding of hindu astrology I think it is important at

> > least to get the chronology right.

> >

> > For example, some people still believe Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra to

> > be more than 4.000 years old and written by the Vedic sage Parasara

> > himself.

> >

> > This is in my opinion an absurdity because of the obvious anachronisms

> > available in the text. In fact, I do not believe BPHS to be ancient at

> > all.

> >

> >

> > >>I have a very bad habit of demanding proofs! As such, please

> > provide chapter and verse as to which purana has advised us to follow

> > which pridictive gimmicks, with which ayanamsha i.e. whether Lahiri or

> > Raman or Muladhara or Chopra or Kharegat or Fagan etc. etc.<<

> >

> >

> > In Narada Purana you can find a complete textbook on astrology of

> > about 18 chapters and 366 verses, the content of which is somewhat

> > similar to Brihat Jataka of Varaha Mihira. Some people call this part

> > of Narada Purana as Narada Samhita.

> >

> > Besides that both Garuda Purana and Agni Purana has got complete

> > chapters dealing with predictice astrology.

> >

> > You can check these puranas out yourself and see if you can find out

> > yourself which Ayanamsa they used.

> >

> >

> > >>If you tell me something more about this chap James Randi, maybe I

> > will be able to tell you whether I follow his philosophy or not!

> > Excuse my ignorance, but I am hearing that name for the first time!<<

> >

> >

> > James Randi is an American ex-magician by profession who became very

> > famous by offering 1 mio USD to anyone who could give proofs of

> > matters like astrology, supernatural things etc.

> >

> > Needless to say that he himself conducted the tests in such a way that

> > nobody has been able to give such proofs, and nobody ever will.

> >

> > He has gathered a large group of very fanatic followers who calls

> > themselves Skeptics. You can read more about James Randi and his

> > followers if you try: www.randi.org

> >

> >

> > Very friendly,

> > Finn Wandahl

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

 

>>It is good you have a bad (may be very bad) habit that you demand

proof, Kindly think who cares to provide you with proofs and that to

for what purpose.<<

 

I believe time itself provides me...

 

>>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage Parasara

to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000 B.C.<<

 

Yes, I know. A lot of people believe this to be true. I, however, do

not agree with them, because of the obvious anachronisms available in

BPHS in the condition as we know it today. I believe we have yet to

find the real and original Parasara Hora or Saktiputra Hora (which may

in fact be its original name). Perhaps it is kept at some museum or

Library in India, London or somewhere else.

 

Vishnu Purana is another highly interesting area, and I have

researched into that also. I surely have a lot of things to say

about both these issues, but I would prefer this debate to wait for

another months or so. At the moment I am at my country residence,

meaning away from my library where I keep all my textbooks, Vedas,

Upanishads, Puranas etc.

 

I feel my contribution to such a debate would be much better if it can

wait until I get back home and have my library available.

 

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh,

 

I think this sounds like a really good idea. I may also be able to

contribute along the way.

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

 

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Finn ji,

> I agree with you - it is a Herculean task - but not impossible, if

> we are willing to.

> It is an easy task if we approach it in small chunks.. For

> example, if you take a single purana and present your notes on the

> same, I take another and present my understanding on the same - and so

> on - as more and more members contribute and discuss the same - any

> one can prepare a coherent and complete document. Our understanding

> will increase and a possible contribution in many languages.

> What do you think?

> Love,

> Sreenadh

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

Then let us start our work.. I will start with " Astrology in

Garuda Purana " . Expect the pdf possibly with in 2 weeks. You too

select one purana and start working - and let me know the details.

Also let us make sure that we will quote both the original sanskrit

quote and meaning - during the whole discussion - whereever

necessory. What do you say?

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh,

>

> I think this sounds like a really good idea. I may also be able to

> contribute along the way.

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Finn ji,

> > I agree with you - it is a Herculean task - but not impossible,

if

> > we are willing to.

> > It is an easy task if we approach it in small chunks.. For

> > example, if you take a single purana and present your notes on the

> > same, I take another and present my understanding on the same -

and so

> > on - as more and more members contribute and discuss the same -

any

> > one can prepare a coherent and complete document. Our

understanding

> > will increase and a possible contribution in many languages.

> > What do you think?

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

Thanks for the sincere and valid inputs shared. There is an old

thread in this forum which started discussing the period of BPHS. The

thread id is: 1589. Even though based on a " Parasara Samhita " it

could be argued that Parasara wrote this text around BC 1400, but -

* based on the language and

* based on the 'obvious anachronisms' present in available

divergent versions(!) of BPHS today

- me too agree that the available BPHS is NOT that ancient a text.

As you rightly mentioned " we may find the real and original Parasara

Hora or Saktiputra Hora (which may in fact be its original name).

Perhaps it is kept at some museum or Library in India, London or

somewhere else. "

By the way - a palm leaf version of BPHS is avilable in " Saraswati

Mahal Manuscript Library, Tanjavoor, Tamil nadu " . What it contains

who knows!

Wating for more knowledge sharing from your side - and thanking the

openness to experess own views - with regards -

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

>

> >>It is good you have a bad (may be very bad) habit that you demand

> proof, Kindly think who cares to provide you with proofs and that to

> for what purpose.<<

>

> I believe time itself provides me...

>

> >>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage

Parasara

> to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000 B.C.<<

>

> Yes, I know. A lot of people believe this to be true. I, however, do

> not agree with them, because of the obvious anachronisms available

in

> BPHS in the condition as we know it today. I believe we have yet to

> find the real and original Parasara Hora or Saktiputra Hora (which

may

> in fact be its original name). Perhaps it is kept at some museum or

> Library in India, London or somewhere else.

>

> Vishnu Purana is another highly interesting area, and I have

> researched into that also. I surely have a lot of things to say

> about both these issues, but I would prefer this debate to wait for

> another months or so. At the moment I am at my country residence,

> meaning away from my library where I keep all my textbooks, Vedas,

> Upanishads, Puranas etc.

>

> I feel my contribution to such a debate would be much better if it

can

> wait until I get back home and have my library available.

>

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

[Guest guest]

My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl, In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh language. Isincerly apologige for the same. As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no beief. Ionly drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available i the market now a days. The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu Puran. The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This shows, that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India. As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to famous Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below: Mail| Contacts| Calendar| Notepad Options Check MailCompose Search Mail: Search MailSearch the Web Folders[Add - Edit] Inbox (534) Draft Sent Bulk[Empty] Trash[Empty] Search Shortcuts My Photos My Attachments

Printable View This message is not flagged. [ Flag Message - Mark as Unread ] Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:05:36 +0100 (BST) "Gopal Goel"

<gkgoel1937 Add to Address Book New Ayanamsa astrologernepal Dr. S.Suneel, I have posted to you ,sir, a mail with reference to new Ayanamsa : '' Dr.S. Suneel, Nineteen % Panchang-makers in India are following Ayanamsa based on Star Chitra (Spica 16). But they don’t provide definition of Ayanamsa. First basic and accepted definition is : Ayanamsa is the angular distance when measured along the Ecliptic, between V.E.POINT and initial point of Nirayana Zodiac, this commences at the junction point of Nakshatra(s) Revti and Asvini Modern Astronomy is able to pinpoint the location of

V.E.POINT with the accuracy of 0.04 sec., which is more than enough for Panchang-making and as well for Astrological purposes. Equinoxes are defined: “The two points on the celestial sphere at which the ecliptic INTERSECTS the celestial equator. When the apparent Tropical longitude of the Sun is Zero degree, it is Vernal equinox .This is also called First Point of Aries. All tropical longitudes are measured from this point on the ecliptic. This point recedes with mean motion of 50.3 sec per tropical year. In the era, in which we are living , there is no way to dispute this finding . In fact all panchang Makers are taking tropical longitudes of planets from positional Astronomical observatories and Only then they are preparing their respective panchang based on their own Ayanamsa(s): The Values of various prevalent Ayanamsa(s) are as under as on April14, 2007:: 1. True CHITRA PAKSHA

(Chitra 180 deg.) 23:56:39.02 2. Lahiri (Chitra 179:59:03) 23:57:36.02 3. Deva Dutta (less than Lahri 0:22:37) 23:34:59.02 4. Krishna Murti (KP) (LESS than Lahiri 0:6:54) 23:51:30.62 5. Fagan (More than Lahiri 0:53:30) 24:51:06.02 Fagan suggested that Star Rohini (Aldebaran 3) should be reference pint

of sidereal zodiac and its longitude be taken as 45deg, instead of Star Chitra 180deg. 5 Keshav Ram Joshi 24:16:41(basis not known) THE PROBLEM IS ARISING AS VEDIC ASTROLORS OF SUB-CONTINENT ARE FEELING SHY TO GIVE PROPER DIFINITION OF INITIAL POINT OF NIRAYANA ZODIAC. Since Vedic days of yore Star Chitra was taken as reference point. In that case, the equation Of Ayanamsa should be accepted

as under : AYANAMSA = Tropical longitude of Star Citra (Spica 16 ) – 180 deg. Dear Dr. Suneel , the comments on Mr. Joshi’s Ayanamsa may be offered if we know His basis of calculations, till than most of the Astrologers in India are following Ayanamsa based on Star Chitra. We

await the result of your investigations with interest. Best regars " Iam awaiting the result of your investigatios and your valuable comments on my observationsG.K.GOELPh: 09350311433Add: L-409, SARITA VIHARNEW DELHI-110 076INDIA ... Check MailCompose Search Mail: Search the Web Move Options [New Folder] Inbox Forward Options As Inline Text As Attachment Reply Options Reply To Sender Reply To Everyone Address Book Shortcuts Add Contact Add Category View Contacts View Lists Quickbuilder Import Contacts Addresses Options Addresses Help Calendar

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Folder View Notes Notepad Options Notepad Help Advanced Search Advanced Search Finn Wandahl <finn.wandahl wrote: Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,>>It is good you have a bad (may be very bad) habit that you demandproof, Kindly think who cares to provide you with proofs and that tofor what purpose.<<I believe time itself provides me...>>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage Parasarato his disciple Matrayee about in 2000 B.C.<<Yes, I know. A lot of people believe this to be true. I, however, donot agree with them, because of the obvious anachronisms available inBPHS in the condition as we know it today. I believe we have yet tofind the real and original Parasara Hora or Saktiputra Hora (which mayin fact be its original name). Perhaps it is kept at some museum orLibrary in India, London or somewhere else.Vishnu Purana is another highly interesting area, and I haveresearched into that also. I surely have

a lot of things to sayabout both these issues, but I would prefer this debate to wait foranother months or so. At the moment I am at my country residence,meaning away from my library where I keep all my textbooks, Vedas,Upanishads, Puranas etc.I feel my contribution to such a debate would be much better if it canwait until I get back home and have my library available. Very friendly,Finn WandahlG.K.GOELPh: 09350311433Add: L-409, SARITA VIHARNEW DELHI-110 076INDIA

Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know how.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

 

I think you are mixing me up with Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, whom I was

quoting in my mail. It was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, who was demanding

proofs from me. I would never display such an arrogance towards anyone.

 

Also it was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul who asked me some irrelevant

questions about Ayanamsa. I don't know why. I would never have asked

such questions myself.

 

The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from aprox.

the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in the Vedic

period (BC) which was perhaps thousands of years earlier.

 

From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas, Upanishads

and Vedangas. Meaning there was no Puranas, Samhitas or Epics written

in that period.

 

We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging to the

Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic period.

Mixing Sruti and Smriti together will get us nowhere. There is an old

rule that whenever there is a disagreement between Sruti (Vedic) and

Smriti (Puranic), then Sruti always prevails.

 

The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some Vedas and

some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters like

the 27 Nakshatras etc.

 

I hope I have been able to clarify things.

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

 

 

 

, Gopal Goel

<gkgoel1937 wrote:

>

> My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh language.

Isincerly apologige for the same.

> As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no beief. Ionly

drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available i the

market now a days.

> The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

Puran.

> The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This shows,

> that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.

> As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to famous

Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh,

 

>>By the way - a palm leaf version of BPHS is avilable in " Saraswati

Mahal Manuscript Library, Tanjavoor, Tamil nadu " . What it contains

who knows!<<

 

Sure, this could be very interesting. Also somebody once told me about

a Manuscript Library in Nepal having something like that. There could

also be some private collection like a Maharaja or something like that

having such a manuscript.

 

Finn

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh,

 

As I mentioned earlier to Mr. Gopal Goel, I do not have any of my

books available at the moment, so for my part this has to wait.

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

 

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Finn ji,

> Then let us start our work.. I will start with " Astrology in

> Garuda Purana " . Expect the pdf possibly with in 2 weeks. You too

> select one purana and start working - and let me know the details.

> Also let us make sure that we will quote both the original sanskrit

> quote and meaning - during the whole discussion - whereever

> necessory. What do you say?

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Finn Wandahl "

> <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh,

> >

> > I think this sounds like a really good idea. I may also be able to

> > contribute along the way.

> >

> > Very friendly,

> > Finn Wandahl

> >

> >

> > , " Sreenadh "

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Finn ji,

> > > I agree with you - it is a Herculean task - but not impossible,

> if

> > > we are willing to.

> > > It is an easy task if we approach it in small chunks.. For

> > > example, if you take a single purana and present your notes on the

> > > same, I take another and present my understanding on the same -

> and so

> > > on - as more and more members contribute and discuss the same -

> any

> > > one can prepare a coherent and complete document. Our

> understanding

> > > will increase and a possible contribution in many languages.

> > > What do you think?

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Goel ji,

Me too had the bad habit of asking for proofs.. Can you provide

your ancient reference from Rishi horas which states that Chitra

should be used to calculate Ayanamsa?

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, Gopal Goel

<gkgoel1937 wrote:

>

> My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh language.

Isincerly apologige for the same.

> As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no beief.

Ionly drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available

i the market now a days.

> The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

Puran.

> The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This

shows,

> that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.

> As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to famous

Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

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> Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:05:36 +0100 (BST)

" Gopal Goel " <gkgoel1937 Add to Address Book

New Ayanamsa astrologernepal [input]

[input] [input] [input]

#message233610151715743607252903679211732669576555 { overflow:auto;

visibility:hidden } Dr. S.Suneel,

> I have posted to you ,sir, a mail with reference to new

Ayanamsa :

> ''

> Dr.S. Suneel,

> Nineteen % Panchang-makers in India are following Ayanamsa based

on

> Star Chitra (Spica 16).

> But they don't provide definition of Ayanamsa.

> First basic and accepted definition is :

> Ayanamsa is the angular distance when measured along the

Ecliptic,

> between V.E.POINT and initial point of Nirayana Zodiac, this

commences at the junction point of Nakshatra(s) Revti and Asvini

> Modern Astronomy is able to pinpoint the location of V.E.POINT

with the accuracy of 0.04 sec., which is more than enough for

Panchang-making and as well for Astrological purposes.

> Equinoxes are defined:

> " The two points on the celestial sphere at which the ecliptic

INTERSECTS the celestial equator. When the apparent Tropical

longitude of the Sun is Zero degree, it is Vernal equinox .This is

also

> called First Point of Aries. All tropical longitudes are measured

from this point on the ecliptic. This

> point recedes with mean motion of 50.3 sec per tropical year.

> In the era, in which we are living , there is no way to

dispute this finding . In fact all panchang

> Makers are taking tropical longitudes of planets from positional

Astronomical observatories and

> Only then they are preparing their respective panchang based on

their own Ayanamsa(s):

> The Values of various prevalent Ayanamsa(s) are as under as on

April14, 2007::

> 1. True CHITRA PAKSHA (Chitra 180 deg.) 23:56:39.02

> 2. Lahiri (Chitra 179:59:03) 23:57:36.02

> 3. Deva Dutta (less than Lahri 0:22:37) 23:34:59.02

> 4. Krishna Murti (KP) (LESS than Lahiri 0:6:54) 23:51:30.62

> 5. Fagan (More than Lahiri 0:53:30) 24:51:06.02

> Fagan suggested that Star Rohini (Aldebaran 3) should be

reference pint of sidereal zodiac and its longitude be taken as

45deg, instead of Star Chitra 180deg.

> 5 Keshav Ram Joshi 24:16:41(basis not known)

>

> THE PROBLEM IS ARISING AS VEDIC ASTROLORS OF SUB-CONTINENT ARE

FEELING SHY TO GIVE PROPER DIFINITION OF INITIAL POINT OF NIRAYANA

ZODIAC.

> Since Vedic days of yore Star Chitra was taken as reference

point. In that case, the equation

> Of Ayanamsa should be accepted as under :

>

> AYANAMSA = Tropical longitude of Star Citra (Spica 16 ) – 180 deg.

>

> Dear Dr. Suneel , the comments on Mr. Joshi's Ayanamsa may be

offered if we know

> His basis of calculations, till than most of the Astrologers in

India are following Ayanamsa based on Star Chitra.

> We await the result of your investigations with interest.

> Best regars "

> Iam awaiting the result of your investigatios and your valuable

comments on my observations

>

>

> G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

>

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> Finn Wandahl <finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

>

> >>It is good you have a bad (may be very bad) habit that you demand

> proof, Kindly think who cares to provide you with proofs and that to

> for what purpose.<<

>

> I believe time itself provides me...

>

> >>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage

Parasara

> to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000 B.C.<<

>

> Yes, I know. A lot of people believe this to be true. I, however, do

> not agree with them, because of the obvious anachronisms available

in

> BPHS in the condition as we know it today. I believe we have yet to

> find the real and original Parasara Hora or Saktiputra Hora (which

may

> in fact be its original name). Perhaps it is kept at some museum or

> Library in India, London or somewhere else.

>

> Vishnu Purana is another highly interesting area, and I have

> researched into that also. I surely have a lot of things to say

> about both these issues, but I would prefer this debate to wait for

> another months or so. At the moment I am at my country residence,

> meaning away from my library where I keep all my textbooks, Vedas,

> Upanishads, Puranas etc.

>

> I feel my contribution to such a debate would be much better if it

can

> wait until I get back home and have my library available.

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

>

>

> Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know

how.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

==>

From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas, Upanishads

and Vedangas.

<==

We may have to add many works on other subjects such as -

Sulbasutras etc - which depict the knowledge of the same period.

==>

> The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from aprox.

> the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in the

< Vedic period (BC)

> We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging to the

> Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic period.

<==

I think the classification such as Vedic period, Epic period or

Puranic or Smiriti period is erroneous. Some puranic or smriti

reference may predate or point to knowledge prior to several vedic

quotes. Similarly several vedic quotes might have been written as

late as BC 1400 or so. Even judging the texts based on language may

lead to erroneous conclusions because - texts of later origin can be

at times in use the ancient style, and texts of earlier origin might

have been re-stated without much difference in the modern language,

but still reflecting the ancient knowledge. Accepting the simple

solutions suggested by your above statement is tricky and lead to

nowhere but to erroneous conclusions.

My suggestion is being individuals in search of knowledge and not of

history - we should try to order of information (i.e. which info must

have come after which and so on - and not date) flow, looking from

inside knowledge of texts rather than - following the superfluous

path followed by the literary and other historians. So I totally

disagree with your classification and approach. But this does not

mean that - I am arguing puranas are older than vedas or so. I am

just pointing to a better approach and pit fall the simplified

approach.

==>

> The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

> Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some Vedas and

> some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters

> like the 27 Nakshatras etc.

<==

This is incomplete information. We have at least quotes available

from one text that reflect the vedic style of language usage - and

with a name 'Jyotishmati Upanishad or Skanda Hora'. This is known as

the first text of Nirayana astrology. I know that you are not yet

familier with the quotes from this text. But you will find many

quotes in my writings from this text and some other lost Rishi horas.

I don't believe that Lagadha's text is as old as it is belived to

be - note that we don't have any reference (as of my knowledge) about

Lagadha's texts at least till 6th century AD. But I agree that the

text 'reflect' or 'presents' the astronomical knowledge in vedic

period. Note that Lagadha's text is not at all mentioned by any well

known astrological works and also that he is NOT included in the 18

great acharyas of astrology or not even among the acharyas of

sidhantic astronomy. So essentially the text does not belong to the

nirayana astrological stream and due to some reason the work of

Lagadha's students was not appreciated by the rishi kulas.

The Vedas contain more astronomical and astrological knowledge that

we belived to be by the comon scholers - a rethinking of frozon

attitude is necessory in this issue. If you read the documents -

1) Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems.pdf and

2) Vedic Proof of Planets.pdf

found inside the folder " Sreeenadh " in the files section of the

group, you will know what I mean.

A re-look with a non-conditioned fresh consciousness can reveal a

thousand new realizations. And the books (Vedas, Puranas, Tantric

texts etc; texts in Brahmi, Pali etc; Scattered quotes available from

lost texts;) all demand such a fresh view, which can implement a

reconstruction from the fragments.

If we can do it - that much good; but if not somebody with better

caliber will come like and shining light to implement the same.

Better we should switch on our torches...at least to pave the

way...

Love and Hugs,

Sreenadh

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

>

> I think you are mixing me up with Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, whom I was

> quoting in my mail. It was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, who was demanding

> proofs from me. I would never display such an arrogance towards

anyone.

>

> Also it was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul who asked me some irrelevant

> questions about Ayanamsa. I don't know why. I would never have asked

> such questions myself.

>

> The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from aprox.

> the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in the

Vedic

> period (BC) which was perhaps thousands of years earlier.

>

> From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas, Upanishads

> and Vedangas. Meaning there was no Puranas, Samhitas or Epics

written

> in that period.

>

> We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging to the

> Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic period.

> Mixing Sruti and Smriti together will get us nowhere. There is an

old

> rule that whenever there is a disagreement between Sruti (Vedic) and

> Smriti (Puranic), then Sruti always prevails.

>

> The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

> Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some Vedas and

> some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters

like

> the 27 Nakshatras etc.

>

> I hope I have been able to clarify things.

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

>

>

> , Gopal Goel

> <gkgoel1937@> wrote:

> >

> > My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> > In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh language.

> Isincerly apologige for the same.

> > As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no beief.

Ionly

> drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available i the

> market now a days.

> > The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

> Puran.

> > The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This

shows,

> > that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.

> > As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to famous

> Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

You should also note that the quotes I provided for " Lagna lord in

various houses " is not available in the usual versions of BPHS. The

same is the case with results for house lords in other houses as

well. So don't forget to have a look at the document 'Lagna lord in

Various Houses.pdf' present inside the folder 'Sreenadh' in files

section.

If you have any such rare references please share it with us as well.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh,

>

> >>By the way - a palm leaf version of BPHS is avilable in " Saraswati

> Mahal Manuscript Library, Tanjavoor, Tamil nadu " . What it contains

> who knows!<<

>

> Sure, this could be very interesting. Also somebody once told me about

> a Manuscript Library in Nepal having something like that. There could

> also be some private collection like a Maharaja or something like that

> having such a manuscript.

>

> Finn

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

OK. That means you have agreed to undertake the task. Yap, we

are ready to wait - for such worthy efforts even it demands a bit

delay.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh,

>

> As I mentioned earlier to Mr. Gopal Goel, I do not have any of my

> books available at the moment, so for my part this has to wait.

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Finn ji,

> > Then let us start our work.. I will start with " Astrology in

> > Garuda Purana " . Expect the pdf possibly with in 2 weeks. You

too

> > select one purana and start working - and let me know the

details.

> > Also let us make sure that we will quote both the original

sanskrit

> > quote and meaning - during the whole discussion - whereever

> > necessory. What do you say?

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " Finn Wandahl "

> > <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sreenadh,

> > >

> > > I think this sounds like a really good idea. I may also be able

to

> > > contribute along the way.

> > >

> > > Very friendly,

> > > Finn Wandahl

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Finn ji,

> > > > I agree with you - it is a Herculean task - but not

impossible,

> > if

> > > > we are willing to.

> > > > It is an easy task if we approach it in small chunks..

For

> > > > example, if you take a single purana and present your notes

on the

> > > > same, I take another and present my understanding on the

same -

> > and so

> > > > on - as more and more members contribute and discuss the

same -

> > any

> > > > one can prepare a coherent and complete document. Our

> > understanding

> > > > will increase and a possible contribution in many

languages.

> > > > What do you think?

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

 

Gopal Goel wrote:

 

>>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage Parasara

to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000B.C. Kindly refer chapter 8 of

second Ansh of Vishnu purana. this chapter will give information on

Sidreal and tropical Zodiac.Kindly particularly refer Sloka's 74 to

81. these sloka clearly indicate that V.E.POINT was in 1st Charn of

star Kritika.<<

 

Not having my books with me I am not able to verify, but I seem to

remember when researching Vishnu Puranas and reading this, I realized

that I had seen it somewhere before. If I remember correctly I found

out that Vishnu Purana was simply quoting Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha

in ch. 8 sl. 74-81.

 

Lagadha gives the Nakshatra positions of the vernal equinox and the

solstice point in his Vedanga Jyotisha and from this I was able to

interpolate the aproximate time-period of Lagadha as being somewhare

around 1300 BC.

 

Gopal Goel wrote:

 

>>The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

Puran.<<

 

This is very correct and they are also both framed with the same style

of conversation between Sage Parasara and his disciple Maitriya. This

could in my opinion indicate they were written, collected or

re-written by the same people, probably someone some Brahmins

belonging to Parasara Gotra.

 

It is a fact that Vishnu Purana has been changed many times, this is

probably why it is so perfect in its Puranic style like no other

Purana. I believe it is possible that BPHS was once a part of Vishnu

Purana, just like Narada Samhita is part of the Narada Purana. Then

perhaps later on someone removed it.

 

Also you can find small hints in BPHS about Brahma Vidya (Nature of

Brahma) reflecting exactly the same Brahma Vidya as in Vishnu Purana,

which can again be found in Maitriya Upanishad and in Atharva-Veda as

well.

 

Gopal Goel wrote:

 

>>The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This

shows that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.<<

 

Please, your deduction is not correct. The fact that Bhatophala never

saw BPHS is more likely because it was not yet written. He could also

be talking about the earlier version of Parasara Hora (also know as

Saktiputra Hora) which has been lost for a very long time. Even that

earlier version was not written by the Vedic sage Parasara and it was

not written in the Vedic period.

 

By the way, Al Biruni also never saw BPHS when he came to India in

year 1000 AD, but he mentioned all the other old textbook like

Saravali, Varaha Mihira etc. in his book " India " . I think this simply

indicate that the old version of Parasara Hora was lost at that time,

and the new one that we know today was not yet written.

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh,

 

In the interest of truth I like to say that whatever you have stated

in the message below should only be taken as your own personal

opinions, nothing else.

 

I also like to state that you make it seem as if I was giving wrong

information, which is in fact not the case here. And criticizing me

for to much historic attitude is pointless when we are trying to get

the chronology of Hindu astrology right. Please don't try to

manipulate or outsmart me like that again.

 

You make a serious error by indicating that a Smriti-text should be

considered as Sruti merely because it is quoting from a Sruti-text.

This is not sound. A Purana, written in the Puranic period, does not

belong to the Vedic period simply because it is quoting from one of

the Vedas or from an Upanishad. Such an argumentation is simply not

valid.

 

I find it very difficult to believe that Skanda Hora should belong to

a period much earlier than the Puranic period, say earlier than

between 100 BC to 100 AD. I only have your word for it, and - sorry -

but thats not good enough for me.

 

I hope you will not become offended by this message, but in case you

should be offended, then I have no problem with that either. If this

group is mainly a place for you to promote your own personal ideas and

thoughts, then it is perfectly fine with me, but I may not follow. I

can easily manage without a group such as this. I only came here

because I was invited in the first place.

 

Think it over... :-)

 

Very friendly,

Finn Wandahl

 

 

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Finn ji,

> ==>

> From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas, Upanishads

> and Vedangas.

> <==

> We may have to add many works on other subjects such as -

> Sulbasutras etc - which depict the knowledge of the same period.

> ==>

> > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from aprox.

> > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in the

> < Vedic period (BC)

> > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging to the

> > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic period.

> <==

> I think the classification such as Vedic period, Epic period or

> Puranic or Smiriti period is erroneous. Some puranic or smriti

> reference may predate or point to knowledge prior to several vedic

> quotes. Similarly several vedic quotes might have been written as

> late as BC 1400 or so. Even judging the texts based on language may

> lead to erroneous conclusions because - texts of later origin can be

> at times in use the ancient style, and texts of earlier origin might

> have been re-stated without much difference in the modern language,

> but still reflecting the ancient knowledge. Accepting the simple

> solutions suggested by your above statement is tricky and lead to

> nowhere but to erroneous conclusions.

> My suggestion is being individuals in search of knowledge and not of

> history - we should try to order of information (i.e. which info must

> have come after which and so on - and not date) flow, looking from

> inside knowledge of texts rather than - following the superfluous

> path followed by the literary and other historians. So I totally

> disagree with your classification and approach. But this does not

> mean that - I am arguing puranas are older than vedas or so. I am

> just pointing to a better approach and pit fall the simplified

> approach.

> ==>

> > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

> > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some Vedas and

> > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters

> > like the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> <==

> This is incomplete information. We have at least quotes available

> from one text that reflect the vedic style of language usage - and

> with a name 'Jyotishmati Upanishad or Skanda Hora'. This is known as

> the first text of Nirayana astrology. I know that you are not yet

> familier with the quotes from this text. But you will find many

> quotes in my writings from this text and some other lost Rishi horas.

> I don't believe that Lagadha's text is as old as it is belived to

> be - note that we don't have any reference (as of my knowledge) about

> Lagadha's texts at least till 6th century AD. But I agree that the

> text 'reflect' or 'presents' the astronomical knowledge in vedic

> period. Note that Lagadha's text is not at all mentioned by any well

> known astrological works and also that he is NOT included in the 18

> great acharyas of astrology or not even among the acharyas of

> sidhantic astronomy. So essentially the text does not belong to the

> nirayana astrological stream and due to some reason the work of

> Lagadha's students was not appreciated by the rishi kulas.

> The Vedas contain more astronomical and astrological knowledge that

> we belived to be by the comon scholers - a rethinking of frozon

> attitude is necessory in this issue. If you read the documents -

> 1) Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems.pdf and

> 2) Vedic Proof of Planets.pdf

> found inside the folder " Sreeenadh " in the files section of the

> group, you will know what I mean.

> A re-look with a non-conditioned fresh consciousness can reveal a

> thousand new realizations. And the books (Vedas, Puranas, Tantric

> texts etc; texts in Brahmi, Pali etc; Scattered quotes available from

> lost texts;) all demand such a fresh view, which can implement a

> reconstruction from the fragments.

> If we can do it - that much good; but if not somebody with better

> caliber will come like and shining light to implement the same.

> Better we should switch on our torches...at least to pave the

> way...

> Love and Hugs,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Finn Wandahl "

> <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

> >

> > I think you are mixing me up with Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, whom I was

> > quoting in my mail. It was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, who was demanding

> > proofs from me. I would never display such an arrogance towards

> anyone.

> >

> > Also it was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul who asked me some irrelevant

> > questions about Ayanamsa. I don't know why. I would never have asked

> > such questions myself.

> >

> > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from aprox.

> > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in the

> Vedic

> > period (BC) which was perhaps thousands of years earlier.

> >

> > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas, Upanishads

> > and Vedangas. Meaning there was no Puranas, Samhitas or Epics

> written

> > in that period.

> >

> > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging to the

> > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic period.

> > Mixing Sruti and Smriti together will get us nowhere. There is an

> old

> > rule that whenever there is a disagreement between Sruti (Vedic) and

> > Smriti (Puranic), then Sruti always prevails.

> >

> > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

> > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some Vedas and

> > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters

> like

> > the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> >

> > I hope I have been able to clarify things.

> >

> > Very friendly,

> > Finn Wandahl

> >

> >

> >

> > , Gopal Goel

> > <gkgoel1937@> wrote:

> > >

> > > My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> > > In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh language.

> > Isincerly apologige for the same.

> > > As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no beief.

> Ionly

> > drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available i the

> > market now a days.

> > > The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

> > Puran.

> > > The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> > acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This

> shows,

> > > that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.

> > > As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to famous

> > Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Wandahl, Name of Parasara's Father is Sage Shakti. This is the reason that Parasara is called Saktiputra. Parasara and Shaktiputra is one and same person. Main text of Srimada-BAGVAT-Mahapurana is contributed by sage Vaysa himself and Muni Sukdev narreted it to King Prikshat for the first time. It looks their is confusion about the purpose and subject matter of Puranas. On this account their is confusion about the original era when Purana's were written. Some time ,I shall come back on this issue. Regards Finn Wandahl <finn.wandahl wrote: Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,Gopal Goel wrote: >>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage Parasarato his disciple Matrayee about in 2000B.C. Kindly refer chapter 8 ofsecond Ansh of Vishnu purana. this chapter will give information onSidreal and tropical Zodiac.Kindly particularly refer Sloka's 74 to81. these sloka clearly indicate that V.E.POINT was in 1st Charn ofstar Kritika.<<Not having my books with me I am not able to verify, but I seem toremember when researching Vishnu Puranas and reading this, I realizedthat I had seen it somewhere before. If I remember correctly I foundout that Vishnu Purana was simply quoting Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadhain ch. 8 sl. 74-81. Lagadha gives the Nakshatra positions of the vernal equinox and thesolstice point in his Vedanga Jyotisha and from this I

was able tointerpolate the aproximate time-period of Lagadha as being somewharearound 1300 BC. Gopal Goel wrote:>>The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with VishnuPuran.<<This is very correct and they are also both framed with the same styleof conversation between Sage Parasara and his disciple Maitriya. Thiscould in my opinion indicate they were written, collected orre-written by the same people, probably someone some Brahminsbelonging to Parasara Gotra.It is a fact that Vishnu Purana has been changed many times, this isprobably why it is so perfect in its Puranic style like no otherPurana. I believe it is possible that BPHS was once a part of VishnuPurana, just like Narada Samhita is part of the Narada Purana. Thenperhaps later on someone removed it. Also you can find small hints in BPHS about Brahma Vidya (Nature ofBrahma) reflecting exactly the same Brahma

Vidya as in Vishnu Purana,which can again be found in Maitriya Upanishad and in Atharva-Veda aswell.Gopal Goel wrote:>>The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL hadacknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.Thisshows that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.<<Please, your deduction is not correct. The fact that Bhatophala neversaw BPHS is more likely because it was not yet written. He could alsobe talking about the earlier version of Parasara Hora (also know asSaktiputra Hora) which has been lost for a very long time. Even thatearlier version was not written by the Vedic sage Parasara and it wasnot written in the Vedic period.By the way, Al Biruni also never saw BPHS when he came to India inyear 1000 AD, but he mentioned all the other old textbook likeSaravali, Varaha Mihira etc. in his book "India". I think this simplyindicate that

the old version of Parasara Hora was lost at that time,and the new one that we know today was not yet written.Very friendly,Finn WandahlG.K.GOELPh: 09350311433Add: L-409, SARITA VIHARNEW DELHI-110 076INDIA

Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know how.

[Guest guest]

dear gopal goel.

I am also a professional astrologer and belong to a traditional family of astrologers .

what is your sourse for this statement ,that parasaras father was sage sakti .Or is it proving again that the son of sakkti lord subramanya or skanda or kartikeya is the father of astrology according to dravidian belief .Mainly all sidhas and Tamil astrolgers blv so .

 

Pls illuminate us .

 

regrds vijaya raghavan guruvayoor

 

, Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937 wrote:>> Dear Wandahl,> Name of Parasara's Father is Sage Shakti. This is the reason that Parasara is called Saktiputra. Parasara and Shaktiputra is one and same person.> Main text of Srimada-BAGVAT-Mahapurana is contributed by sage Vaysa himself and Muni Sukdev narreted it to King Prikshat for the first time.> It looks their is confusion about the purpose and subject matter of Puranas.> On this account their is confusion about the original era when Purana's were written.> Some time ,I shall come back on this issue.> Regards> > > Finn Wandahl finn.wandahl wrote:> Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,> > Gopal Goel wrote: > > >>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage Parasara> to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000B.C. Kindly refer chapter 8 of> second Ansh of Vishnu purana. this chapter will give information on> Sidreal and tropical Zodiac.Kindly particularly refer Sloka's 74 to> 81. these sloka clearly indicate that V.E.POINT was in 1st Charn of> star Kritika.<<> > Not having my books with me I am not able to verify, but I seem to> remember when researching Vishnu Puranas and reading this, I realized> that I had seen it somewhere before. If I remember correctly I found> out that Vishnu Purana was simply quoting Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha> in ch. 8 sl. 74-81. > > Lagadha gives the Nakshatra positions of the vernal equinox and the> solstice point in his Vedanga Jyotisha and from this I was able to> interpolate the aproximate time-period of Lagadha as being somewhare> around 1300 BC. > > Gopal Goel wrote:> > >>The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu> Puran.<<> > This is very correct and they are also both framed with the same style> of conversation between Sage Parasara and his disciple Maitriya. This> could in my opinion indicate they were written, collected or> re-written by the same people, probably someone some Brahmins> belonging to Parasara Gotra.> > It is a fact that Vishnu Purana has been changed many times, this is> probably why it is so perfect in its Puranic style like no other> Purana. I believe it is possible that BPHS was once a part of Vishnu> Purana, just like Narada Samhita is part of the Narada Purana. Then> perhaps later on someone removed it. > > Also you can find small hints in BPHS about Brahma Vidya (Nature of> Brahma) reflecting exactly the same Brahma Vidya as in Vishnu Purana,> which can again be found in Maitriya Upanishad and in Atharva-Veda as> well.> > Gopal Goel wrote:> > >>The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had> acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This> shows that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in India.<<> > Please, your deduction is not correct. The fact that Bhatophala never> saw BPHS is more likely because it was not yet written. He could also> be talking about the earlier version of Parasara Hora (also know as> Saktiputra Hora) which has been lost for a very long time. Even that> earlier version was not written by the Vedic sage Parasara and it was> not written in the Vedic period.> > By the way, Al Biruni also never saw BPHS when he came to India in> year 1000 AD, but he mentioned all the other old textbook like> Saravali, Varaha Mihira etc. in his book "India". I think this simply> indicate that the old version of Parasara Hora was lost at that time,> and the new one that we know today was not yet written.> > Very friendly,> Finn Wandahl> > > > > > > G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-110 076> INDIA> > > Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know how.>

[Guest guest]

Shri Finn Wandahl ji,

Namaskar!

 

<Kindly refer chapter 8 of second Ansh of Vishnu purana. this

chapter will give information on Sidreal and tropical Zodiac>

 

Rishis like Parashara were more like scientists! Neither of them

i.e. real Vedic Rishis and scientists-- believe the zodiac to be of

several kinds -- sidereal and tropical! It is astronomically

imposssible for a zodiac to be of different kinds! Please read the

Vishnu Purana again thoroughly! If it clubs Vishuva i.e. Spring

Equinox with Mesha Sankranti, it does not club it with Ashvini

nakshatra at the sme time! Thus you can say that if at all the

Puranas refer to any zodiac it is tropical! If it had clubbed

Ashvini nakshatra with Mesha Rashis you could have said that it was

talking of a sidereal zodiac! It cannot be both the things

simultaneously!

That feat of clubbing both the zodiacs (sic!) was " accopmplished "

only by Maya the mlechha in his Surya Sidhanta --- he had clubbed

Mesha Sankranti with Spring Equinox and also with Ashvini nakshatra

simultaneously! And to claim authenticity for his lies, he had

taken recourse to yet another patent lie that that knowledge was

revealed to him by Surya Bhagwan himself!

The case with today's " Vedic astrologers " is hardly any different!

They have been groping in darkness over the last several centuries

for the Ayanamsha lark! Obviously, since the skies are not going to

fall, they are not going to cath that lark!

With regards,

AvtarKrishen Kaul

 

PS I must put on record that I find your discussions very

knowledgable and in the real spirit of a seeker of truth!

AKK

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

>

> Gopal Goel wrote:

>

> >>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage

Parasara

> to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000B.C. Kindly refer chapter 8

of

> second Ansh of Vishnu purana. this chapter will give information on

> Sidreal and tropical Zodiac.Kindly particularly refer Sloka's 74 to

> 81. these sloka clearly indicate that V.E.POINT was in 1st Charn of

> star Kritika.<<

>

> Not having my books with me I am not able to verify, but I seem to

> remember when researching Vishnu Puranas and reading this, I

realized

> that I had seen it somewhere before. If I remember correctly I

found

> out that Vishnu Purana was simply quoting Vedanga Jyotisha of

Lagadha

> in ch. 8 sl. 74-81.

>

> Lagadha gives the Nakshatra positions of the vernal equinox and the

> solstice point in his Vedanga Jyotisha and from this I was able to

> interpolate the aproximate time-period of Lagadha as being

somewhare

> around 1300 BC.

>

> Gopal Goel wrote:

>

> >>The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

> Puran.<<

>

> This is very correct and they are also both framed with the same

style

> of conversation between Sage Parasara and his disciple Maitriya.

This

> could in my opinion indicate they were written, collected or

> re-written by the same people, probably someone some Brahmins

> belonging to Parasara Gotra.

>

> It is a fact that Vishnu Purana has been changed many times, this

is

> probably why it is so perfect in its Puranic style like no other

> Purana. I believe it is possible that BPHS was once a part of

Vishnu

> Purana, just like Narada Samhita is part of the Narada Purana. Then

> perhaps later on someone removed it.

>

> Also you can find small hints in BPHS about Brahma Vidya (Nature of

> Brahma) reflecting exactly the same Brahma Vidya as in Vishnu

Purana,

> which can again be found in Maitriya Upanishad and in Atharva-Veda

as

> well.

>

> Gopal Goel wrote:

>

> >>The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This

> shows that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in

India.<<

>

> Please, your deduction is not correct. The fact that Bhatophala

never

> saw BPHS is more likely because it was not yet written. He could

also

> be talking about the earlier version of Parasara Hora (also know as

> Saktiputra Hora) which has been lost for a very long time. Even

that

> earlier version was not written by the Vedic sage Parasara and it

was

> not written in the Vedic period.

>

> By the way, Al Biruni also never saw BPHS when he came to India in

> year 1000 AD, but he mentioned all the other old textbook like

> Saravali, Varaha Mihira etc. in his book " India " . I think this

simply

> indicate that the old version of Parasara Hora was lost at that

time,

> and the new one that we know today was not yet written.

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

==>

> whatever you have stated in the message below should only be taken

> as your own personal opinions, nothing else.

<==

As you have rightly mentioned that was my personal opinion or view.

We are independent individuals with unique views and ideas and as

such every view has its on merits and demerits. It is only when

individuals are confident to present their views and to receive or

reject info from others - evolving of knowledge and understanding

will happen. Different perspectives are always necessary, the world

is not homogeneous but heterogeneous - and that is the beauty of the

universe. Every individual has a unique perspective - and when he

sincerely exposes it, and when he is open (ready to receive or reject

knowledge from others - based on his own uniqueness) - he should be

appreciated. This applies to me and you - and both of us, I trust,

know this as a fact - without saying. Thus my appreciation towards

you is for your uniqueness, the view or perspective you are able to

provide; and your appreciation towards me should be based on the

same. It is not that we agree or disagree - but it is that both of

us are sincere in our approach is what getting appreciated. There is

a small anecdote -

When King Alexander attacked India. The king of Gujarat Porus

bravely fought against him. After a long war Porus was defeated,

captured and brought in front of Alexander. He asked to Porus - " How

should I treat you? " . Porus replied - " As a king to another " .

Alexander became astonished by this answer, and the self confidence

of Porus reflected in it about own actions. He released Porus,

returned his kingdom, became a friend of him - the story says.

Yes every sincere individual, every brave man, is a king in

himself - Unique, the lone ruler of his own kingdom within. The above

small anecdote is applicable in many situations - in study and

research as well. Every true seeker is a king unto himself -

unique - whether it be you, me, Pradeep, Kaul or anyone else. And

to rejoice - there is no war as well, but only 'Amrita Madhana' of

the milky ocean of knowledge - of course many things could emerge,

both good and bad.

==>

> I also like to state that you make it seem as if I was giving wrong

> information, which is in fact not the case here. And criticizing me

> for to much historic attitude is pointless when we are trying to get

> the chronology of Hindu astrology right.

<==

Dear Fin ji, there was no such thing involved - you were

expressing your own opinion and me mine - and that is all to it. Both

personal views and the if a third one will always pick up some thing

from both and add his own, and then it becomes his personal view.

That is how all the knowledge emerge and evolve.

==>

> You make a serious error by indicating that a Smriti-text should be

> considered as Sruti merely because it is quoting from a Sruti-text.

<==

I never said so. But things are not always simple - Vedas,

Upanishads, Aranyakas, Sutra texts- the classifications are usually

not border proof - and 'Samhita' (Collection) is the name by which

many of them are known. Some items in the collection may be old and

some new. The Smriti text might had their earlier incarnations even

in the period of Vedic hymns. Even in the starting period of Smriti

writing (the unavailable earlier versions of which i may date at the

same period as vedas) - may overlap with the ending period of vedic

period. But ofcourse these are personal views which may vary - from

person to person.

==>

> I find it very difficult to believe that Skanda Hora should belong

> to a period much earlier than the Puranic period, say earlier than

> between 100 BC to 100 AD.

<==

First of all you are yet to see the quotes from it - and so it is

too early for you to comment on the same - i believe. But that is

your view - I don't have anything to say.

==>

> I hope you will not become offended by this message, but in case you

> should be offended

<==

Comeon!! We are not kids! We can see and understand each other - and

as seekers of knowledge and truth - agree to agree, agree to disagree

or disagree to disagree - in any situation i think. We shouldn't take

things personal - it is just academic discussion - and I should feel

happy (and not offended) that I met another individual who is doing

sincere studies. Whether it be you or Kaul or the other many great

individuals in this group - I should be happy that I am getting a

chance to interact with you all and share the knowledge.

==>

> I only came here because I was invited in the first place.

<==

Finn ji, it is not only that - i am a member in many forums in

which i am not even invited, and or have opinions diametrically

opposite to mine (Eg: Hindu Calendar group of Kaul ji). We are here

because we love the company of people who 'share the same passion' -

as puts it. True - we are here because of astrology - the

common thread of interest that runs through us all. So fell free,

this is your forum and we are all here to share - respecting each

other - to seek and give knowledge - to do academic discussions

without barriers - and to feel thankful to all the members present in

the group that they are blessing us either by participation, or by

occasional comments, or by criticisms, or by being readers who too

are in the path of seeking knowledge, and so on.

Even though the spams caused the moderation for a few days - don't

feel that this group will remain so for long. If we can go back to

the unmoderated status as soon as possible - that much good. It is

your forum and we are all thankful to you for the knowledge you

share.

Note: Actually the moderation of the group is a weight pressed

against me, rather than a helpful or comfortable thing. I want to

free myself from it as fast as possible – that not for me.

Love and Hugs,

Sreenadh

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh,

>

> In the interest of truth I like to say that whatever you have stated

> in the message below should only be taken as your own personal

> opinions, nothing else.

>

> I also like to state that you make it seem as if I was giving wrong

> information, which is in fact not the case here. And criticizing me

> for to much historic attitude is pointless when we are trying to get

> the chronology of Hindu astrology right. Please don't try to

> manipulate or outsmart me like that again.

>

> You make a serious error by indicating that a Smriti-text should be

> considered as Sruti merely because it is quoting from a Sruti-text.

> This is not sound. A Purana, written in the Puranic period, does not

> belong to the Vedic period simply because it is quoting from one of

> the Vedas or from an Upanishad. Such an argumentation is simply not

> valid.

>

> I find it very difficult to believe that Skanda Hora should belong

to

> a period much earlier than the Puranic period, say earlier than

> between 100 BC to 100 AD. I only have your word for it, and -

sorry -

> but thats not good enough for me.

>

> I hope you will not become offended by this message, but in case you

> should be offended, then I have no problem with that either. If this

> group is mainly a place for you to promote your own personal ideas

and

> thoughts, then it is perfectly fine with me, but I may not follow. I

> can easily manage without a group such as this. I only came here

> because I was invited in the first place.

>

> Think it over... :-)

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

>

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Finn ji,

> > ==>

> > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas,

Upanishads

> > and Vedangas.

> > <==

> > We may have to add many works on other subjects such as -

> > Sulbasutras etc - which depict the knowledge of the same period.

> > ==>

> > > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from

aprox.

> > > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in

the

> > < Vedic period (BC)

> > > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging

to the

> > > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic

period.

> > <==

> > I think the classification such as Vedic period, Epic period

or

> > Puranic or Smiriti period is erroneous. Some puranic or smriti

> > reference may predate or point to knowledge prior to several

vedic

> > quotes. Similarly several vedic quotes might have been written as

> > late as BC 1400 or so. Even judging the texts based on language

may

> > lead to erroneous conclusions because - texts of later origin can

be

> > at times in use the ancient style, and texts of earlier origin

might

> > have been re-stated without much difference in the modern

language,

> > but still reflecting the ancient knowledge. Accepting the simple

> > solutions suggested by your above statement is tricky and lead to

> > nowhere but to erroneous conclusions.

> > My suggestion is being individuals in search of knowledge and

not of

> > history - we should try to order of information (i.e. which info

must

> > have come after which and so on - and not date) flow, looking

from

> > inside knowledge of texts rather than - following the superfluous

> > path followed by the literary and other historians. So I totally

> > disagree with your classification and approach. But this does not

> > mean that - I am arguing puranas are older than vedas or so. I am

> > just pointing to a better approach and pit fall the simplified

> > approach.

> > ==>

> > > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> > > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> > > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

> > > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some

Vedas and

> > > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters

> > > like the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> > <==

> > This is incomplete information. We have at least quotes

available

> > from one text that reflect the vedic style of language usage -

and

> > with a name 'Jyotishmati Upanishad or Skanda Hora'. This is known

as

> > the first text of Nirayana astrology. I know that you are not yet

> > familier with the quotes from this text. But you will find many

> > quotes in my writings from this text and some other lost Rishi

horas.

> > I don't believe that Lagadha's text is as old as it is belived

to

> > be - note that we don't have any reference (as of my knowledge)

about

> > Lagadha's texts at least till 6th century AD. But I agree that

the

> > text 'reflect' or 'presents' the astronomical knowledge in vedic

> > period. Note that Lagadha's text is not at all mentioned by any

well

> > known astrological works and also that he is NOT included in the

18

> > great acharyas of astrology or not even among the acharyas of

> > sidhantic astronomy. So essentially the text does not belong to

the

> > nirayana astrological stream and due to some reason the work of

> > Lagadha's students was not appreciated by the rishi kulas.

> > The Vedas contain more astronomical and astrological knowledge

that

> > we belived to be by the comon scholers - a rethinking of frozon

> > attitude is necessory in this issue. If you read the documents -

> > 1) Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems.pdf and

> > 2) Vedic Proof of Planets.pdf

> > found inside the folder " Sreeenadh " in the files section of the

> > group, you will know what I mean.

> > A re-look with a non-conditioned fresh consciousness can reveal

a

> > thousand new realizations. And the books (Vedas, Puranas, Tantric

> > texts etc; texts in Brahmi, Pali etc; Scattered quotes available

from

> > lost texts;) all demand such a fresh view, which can implement a

> > reconstruction from the fragments.

> > If we can do it - that much good; but if not somebody with

better

> > caliber will come like and shining light to implement the same.

> > Better we should switch on our torches...at least to pave the

> > way...

> > Love and Hugs,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " Finn Wandahl "

> > <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

> > >

> > > I think you are mixing me up with Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, whom

I was

> > > quoting in my mail. It was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, who was

demanding

> > > proofs from me. I would never display such an arrogance towards

> > anyone.

> > >

> > > Also it was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul who asked me some irrelevant

> > > questions about Ayanamsa. I don't know why. I would never have

asked

> > > such questions myself.

> > >

> > > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from

aprox.

> > > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in

the

> > Vedic

> > > period (BC) which was perhaps thousands of years earlier.

> > >

> > > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas,

Upanishads

> > > and Vedangas. Meaning there was no Puranas, Samhitas or Epics

> > written

> > > in that period.

> > >

> > > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging

to the

> > > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic

period.

> > > Mixing Sruti and Smriti together will get us nowhere. There is

an

> > old

> > > rule that whenever there is a disagreement between Sruti

(Vedic) and

> > > Smriti (Puranic), then Sruti always prevails.

> > >

> > > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> > > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> > > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda and

> > > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some

Vedas and

> > > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to matters

> > like

> > > the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> > >

> > > I hope I have been able to clarify things.

> > >

> > > Very friendly,

> > > Finn Wandahl

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , Gopal Goel

> > > <gkgoel1937@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> > > > In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh

language.

> > > Isincerly apologige for the same.

> > > > As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no

beief.

> > Ionly

> > > drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available

i the

> > > market now a days.

> > > > The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with

Vishnu

> > > Puran.

> > > > The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> > > acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on

BPHS.This

> > shows,

> > > > that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in

India.

> > > > As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to

famous

> > > Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Shri Finn Wandahl ji,

Namaskar!

<In the interest of truth I like to say that whatever you have stated

in the message below should only be taken as your own personal

opinions, nothing else.>

 

I agree with you cent-per-cent.

Regards,

AKK

 

, " Finn Wandahl "

<finn.wandahl wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh,

>

> In the interest of truth I like to say that whatever you have

stated

> in the message below should only be taken as your own personal

> opinions, nothing else.

>

> I also like to state that you make it seem as if I was giving wrong

> information, which is in fact not the case here. And criticizing me

> for to much historic attitude is pointless when we are trying to

get

> the chronology of Hindu astrology right. Please don't try to

> manipulate or outsmart me like that again.

>

> You make a serious error by indicating that a Smriti-text should be

> considered as Sruti merely because it is quoting from a Sruti-

text.

> This is not sound. A Purana, written in the Puranic period, does

not

> belong to the Vedic period simply because it is quoting from one of

> the Vedas or from an Upanishad. Such an argumentation is simply

not

> valid.

>

> I find it very difficult to believe that Skanda Hora should belong

to

> a period much earlier than the Puranic period, say earlier than

> between 100 BC to 100 AD. I only have your word for it, and -

sorry -

> but thats not good enough for me.

>

> I hope you will not become offended by this message, but in case

you

> should be offended, then I have no problem with that either. If

this

> group is mainly a place for you to promote your own personal ideas

and

> thoughts, then it is perfectly fine with me, but I may not follow.

I

> can easily manage without a group such as this. I only came here

> because I was invited in the first place.

>

> Think it over... :-)

>

> Very friendly,

> Finn Wandahl

>

>

>

> , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Finn ji,

> > ==>

> > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas,

Upanishads

> > and Vedangas.

> > <==

> > We may have to add many works on other subjects such as -

> > Sulbasutras etc - which depict the knowledge of the same period.

> > ==>

> > > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from

aprox.

> > > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in

the

> > < Vedic period (BC)

> > > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging

to the

> > > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic

period.

> > <==

> > I think the classification such as Vedic period, Epic period

or

> > Puranic or Smiriti period is erroneous. Some puranic or smriti

> > reference may predate or point to knowledge prior to several

vedic

> > quotes. Similarly several vedic quotes might have been written

as

> > late as BC 1400 or so. Even judging the texts based on language

may

> > lead to erroneous conclusions because - texts of later origin

can be

> > at times in use the ancient style, and texts of earlier origin

might

> > have been re-stated without much difference in the modern

language,

> > but still reflecting the ancient knowledge. Accepting the simple

> > solutions suggested by your above statement is tricky and lead

to

> > nowhere but to erroneous conclusions.

> > My suggestion is being individuals in search of knowledge and

not of

> > history - we should try to order of information (i.e. which info

must

> > have come after which and so on - and not date) flow, looking

from

> > inside knowledge of texts rather than - following the

superfluous

> > path followed by the literary and other historians. So I totally

> > disagree with your classification and approach. But this does

not

> > mean that - I am arguing puranas are older than vedas or so. I

am

> > just pointing to a better approach and pit fall the simplified

> > approach.

> > ==>

> > > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> > > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> > > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda

and

> > > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some

Vedas and

> > > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to

matters

> > > like the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> > <==

> > This is incomplete information. We have at least quotes

available

> > from one text that reflect the vedic style of language usage -

and

> > with a name 'Jyotishmati Upanishad or Skanda Hora'. This is

known as

> > the first text of Nirayana astrology. I know that you are not

yet

> > familier with the quotes from this text. But you will find many

> > quotes in my writings from this text and some other lost Rishi

horas.

> > I don't believe that Lagadha's text is as old as it is belived

to

> > be - note that we don't have any reference (as of my knowledge)

about

> > Lagadha's texts at least till 6th century AD. But I agree that

the

> > text 'reflect' or 'presents' the astronomical knowledge in vedic

> > period. Note that Lagadha's text is not at all mentioned by any

well

> > known astrological works and also that he is NOT included in the

18

> > great acharyas of astrology or not even among the acharyas of

> > sidhantic astronomy. So essentially the text does not belong to

the

> > nirayana astrological stream and due to some reason the work of

> > Lagadha's students was not appreciated by the rishi kulas.

> > The Vedas contain more astronomical and astrological knowledge

that

> > we belived to be by the comon scholers - a rethinking of frozon

> > attitude is necessory in this issue. If you read the documents -

> > 1) Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems.pdf and

> > 2) Vedic Proof of Planets.pdf

> > found inside the folder " Sreeenadh " in the files section of the

> > group, you will know what I mean.

> > A re-look with a non-conditioned fresh consciousness can reveal

a

> > thousand new realizations. And the books (Vedas, Puranas,

Tantric

> > texts etc; texts in Brahmi, Pali etc; Scattered quotes available

from

> > lost texts;) all demand such a fresh view, which can implement a

> > reconstruction from the fragments.

> > If we can do it - that much good; but if not somebody with

better

> > caliber will come like and shining light to implement the same.

> > Better we should switch on our torches...at least to pave the

> > way...

> > Love and Hugs,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " Finn Wandahl "

> > <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

> > >

> > > I think you are mixing me up with Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, whom

I was

> > > quoting in my mail. It was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, who was

demanding

> > > proofs from me. I would never display such an arrogance

towards

> > anyone.

> > >

> > > Also it was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul who asked me some irrelevant

> > > questions about Ayanamsa. I don't know why. I would never have

asked

> > > such questions myself.

> > >

> > > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from

aprox.

> > > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in

the

> > Vedic

> > > period (BC) which was perhaps thousands of years earlier.

> > >

> > > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas,

Upanishads

> > > and Vedangas. Meaning there was no Puranas, Samhitas or Epics

> > written

> > > in that period.

> > >

> > > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging

to the

> > > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic

period.

> > > Mixing Sruti and Smriti together will get us nowhere. There is

an

> > old

> > > rule that whenever there is a disagreement between Sruti

(Vedic) and

> > > Smriti (Puranic), then Sruti always prevails.

> > >

> > > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the Puranic

> > > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and Garga's

> > > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda

and

> > > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some

Vedas and

> > > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to

matters

> > like

> > > the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> > >

> > > I hope I have been able to clarify things.

> > >

> > > Very friendly,

> > > Finn Wandahl

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , Gopal Goel

> > > <gkgoel1937@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> > > > In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh

language.

> > > Isincerly apologige for the same.

> > > > As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no

beief.

> > Ionly

> > > drawn your attention whatwas written in the version available

i the

> > > market now a days.

> > > > The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with

Vishnu

> > > Puran.

> > > > The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> > > acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on

BPHS.This

> > shows,

> > > > that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in

India.

> > > > As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to

famous

> > > Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishen ji,

Ha Ha.. We found at least one point in which we all agree to each

other!

Yes, we are all liberally presenting our own opinions here while

respecting each other - for the benefit of the group and ourselves -

to accept or reject the information and interpretations - as per the

perspective of individuals. Thus -

> I agree with you cent-per-cent.

Love and Hugs,

Sreenadh

 

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

>

> Shri Finn Wandahl ji,

> Namaskar!

> <In the interest of truth I like to say that whatever you have

stated

> in the message below should only be taken as your own personal

> opinions, nothing else.>

>

> I agree with you cent-per-cent.

> Regards,

> AKK

>

> , " Finn Wandahl "

> <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh,

> >

> > In the interest of truth I like to say that whatever you have

> stated

> > in the message below should only be taken as your own personal

> > opinions, nothing else.

> >

> > I also like to state that you make it seem as if I was giving

wrong

> > information, which is in fact not the case here. And criticizing

me

> > for to much historic attitude is pointless when we are trying to

> get

> > the chronology of Hindu astrology right. Please don't try to

> > manipulate or outsmart me like that again.

> >

> > You make a serious error by indicating that a Smriti-text should

be

> > considered as Sruti merely because it is quoting from a Sruti-

> text.

> > This is not sound. A Purana, written in the Puranic period, does

> not

> > belong to the Vedic period simply because it is quoting from one

of

> > the Vedas or from an Upanishad. Such an argumentation is simply

> not

> > valid.

> >

> > I find it very difficult to believe that Skanda Hora should

belong

> to

> > a period much earlier than the Puranic period, say earlier than

> > between 100 BC to 100 AD. I only have your word for it, and -

> sorry -

> > but thats not good enough for me.

> >

> > I hope you will not become offended by this message, but in case

> you

> > should be offended, then I have no problem with that either. If

> this

> > group is mainly a place for you to promote your own personal

ideas

> and

> > thoughts, then it is perfectly fine with me, but I may not

follow.

> I

> > can easily manage without a group such as this. I only came here

> > because I was invited in the first place.

> >

> > Think it over... :-)

> >

> > Very friendly,

> > Finn Wandahl

> >

> >

> >

> > , " Sreenadh "

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Finn ji,

> > > ==>

> > > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas,

> Upanishads

> > > and Vedangas.

> > > <==

> > > We may have to add many works on other subjects such as -

> > > Sulbasutras etc - which depict the knowledge of the same period.

> > > ==>

> > > > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from

> aprox.

> > > > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in

> the

> > > < Vedic period (BC)

> > > > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging

> to the

> > > > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic

> period.

> > > <==

> > > I think the classification such as Vedic period, Epic period

> or

> > > Puranic or Smiriti period is erroneous. Some puranic or smriti

> > > reference may predate or point to knowledge prior to several

> vedic

> > > quotes. Similarly several vedic quotes might have been written

> as

> > > late as BC 1400 or so. Even judging the texts based on language

> may

> > > lead to erroneous conclusions because - texts of later origin

> can be

> > > at times in use the ancient style, and texts of earlier origin

> might

> > > have been re-stated without much difference in the modern

> language,

> > > but still reflecting the ancient knowledge. Accepting the

simple

> > > solutions suggested by your above statement is tricky and lead

> to

> > > nowhere but to erroneous conclusions.

> > > My suggestion is being individuals in search of knowledge and

> not of

> > > history - we should try to order of information (i.e. which

info

> must

> > > have come after which and so on - and not date) flow, looking

> from

> > > inside knowledge of texts rather than - following the

> superfluous

> > > path followed by the literary and other historians. So I

totally

> > > disagree with your classification and approach. But this does

> not

> > > mean that - I am arguing puranas are older than vedas or so. I

> am

> > > just pointing to a better approach and pit fall the simplified

> > > approach.

> > > ==>

> > > > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the

Puranic

> > > > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and

Garga's

> > > > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda

> and

> > > > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some

> Vedas and

> > > > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to

> matters

> > > > like the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> > > <==

> > > This is incomplete information. We have at least quotes

> available

> > > from one text that reflect the vedic style of language usage -

> and

> > > with a name 'Jyotishmati Upanishad or Skanda Hora'. This is

> known as

> > > the first text of Nirayana astrology. I know that you are not

> yet

> > > familier with the quotes from this text. But you will find many

> > > quotes in my writings from this text and some other lost Rishi

> horas.

> > > I don't believe that Lagadha's text is as old as it is belived

> to

> > > be - note that we don't have any reference (as of my knowledge)

> about

> > > Lagadha's texts at least till 6th century AD. But I agree that

> the

> > > text 'reflect' or 'presents' the astronomical knowledge in

vedic

> > > period. Note that Lagadha's text is not at all mentioned by any

> well

> > > known astrological works and also that he is NOT included in

the

> 18

> > > great acharyas of astrology or not even among the acharyas of

> > > sidhantic astronomy. So essentially the text does not belong to

> the

> > > nirayana astrological stream and due to some reason the work of

> > > Lagadha's students was not appreciated by the rishi kulas.

> > > The Vedas contain more astronomical and astrological

knowledge

> that

> > > we belived to be by the comon scholers - a rethinking of frozon

> > > attitude is necessory in this issue. If you read the documents -

> > > 1) Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems.pdf and

> > > 2) Vedic Proof of Planets.pdf

> > > found inside the folder " Sreeenadh " in the files section of

the

> > > group, you will know what I mean.

> > > A re-look with a non-conditioned fresh consciousness can

reveal

> a

> > > thousand new realizations. And the books (Vedas, Puranas,

> Tantric

> > > texts etc; texts in Brahmi, Pali etc; Scattered quotes

available

> from

> > > lost texts;) all demand such a fresh view, which can implement

a

> > > reconstruction from the fragments.

> > > If we can do it - that much good; but if not somebody with

> better

> > > caliber will come like and shining light to implement the same.

> > > Better we should switch on our torches...at least to pave the

> > > way...

> > > Love and Hugs,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > , " Finn Wandahl "

> > > <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

> > > >

> > > > I think you are mixing me up with Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul,

whom

> I was

> > > > quoting in my mail. It was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul, who was

> demanding

> > > > proofs from me. I would never display such an arrogance

> towards

> > > anyone.

> > > >

> > > > Also it was Mr. Avtar Krishen Kaul who asked me some

irrelevant

> > > > questions about Ayanamsa. I don't know why. I would never

have

> asked

> > > > such questions myself.

> > > >

> > > > The Puranas were written in the Puranic period which is from

> aprox.

> > > > the year 100 AD up to say 1600 AD. No Puranas was written in

> the

> > > Vedic

> > > > period (BC) which was perhaps thousands of years earlier.

> > > >

> > > > From the Vedic period we only have the texts like Vedas,

> Upanishads

> > > > and Vedangas. Meaning there was no Puranas, Samhitas or Epics

> > > written

> > > > in that period.

> > > >

> > > > We have got to discriminate between the Sruti-texts belonging

> to the

> > > > Vedic period and the Smriti-texts belonging to the Puranic

> period.

> > > > Mixing Sruti and Smriti together will get us nowhere. There

is

> an

> > > old

> > > > rule that whenever there is a disagreement between Sruti

> (Vedic) and

> > > > Smriti (Puranic), then Sruti always prevails.

> > > >

> > > > The astrological texts that we know today belong to the

Puranic

> > > > period. From the Vedic period we only have Lagada's and

Garga's

> > > > Vedanga Jyotishas which are connected to Rig-veda/Yajur-Veda

> and

> > > > Atharva-Veda respectively. And then at certain places some

> Vedas and

> > > > some Uphanishads give some basic information related to

> matters

> > > like

> > > > the 27 Nakshatras etc.

> > > >

> > > > I hope I have been able to clarify things.

> > > >

> > > > Very friendly,

> > > > Finn Wandahl

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , Gopal Goel

> > > > <gkgoel1937@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > My dear Mr. Finn Wandahl,

> > > > > In my first mail to you , I relise that I used harsh

> language.

> > > > Isincerly apologige for the same.

> > > > > As regards the era of Vishnu Puran , i really have no

> beief.

> > > Ionly

> > > > drawn your attention whatwas written in the version

available

> i the

> > > > market now a days.

> > > > > The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with

> Vishnu

> > > > Puran.

> > > > > The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> > > > acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on

> BPHS.This

> > > shows,

> > > > > that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in

> India.

> > > > > As regards your querry on Ayanamsa, I had sent a mail to

> famous

> > > > Astrologer in Nepal , which is reproduced below:

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Finn ji,

==>

I must put on record that I find your discussions very

knowledgable and in the real spirit of a seeker of truth!

<==

I second Kaul ji in this, and agree to it completly; even though I

don't agree to any other point he mentions in this mail - which

reflect his unique view.

Note: Kaul ji, please don't jump into the above statement, we will

go slowly, step by step - and you see at every step a flame is

present; Like in case of the first step towards Ramayana. Flame and

Blame - it is a rough and tough path - but hopefully i think it is

worth it.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

>

> Shri Finn Wandahl ji,

> Namaskar!

>

> <Kindly refer chapter 8 of second Ansh of Vishnu purana. this

> chapter will give information on Sidreal and tropical Zodiac>

>

> Rishis like Parashara were more like scientists! Neither of them

> i.e. real Vedic Rishis and scientists-- believe the zodiac to be of

> several kinds -- sidereal and tropical! It is astronomically

> imposssible for a zodiac to be of different kinds! Please read the

> Vishnu Purana again thoroughly! If it clubs Vishuva i.e. Spring

> Equinox with Mesha Sankranti, it does not club it with Ashvini

> nakshatra at the sme time! Thus you can say that if at all the

> Puranas refer to any zodiac it is tropical! If it had clubbed

> Ashvini nakshatra with Mesha Rashis you could have said that it was

> talking of a sidereal zodiac! It cannot be both the things

> simultaneously!

> That feat of clubbing both the zodiacs (sic!) was " accopmplished "

> only by Maya the mlechha in his Surya Sidhanta --- he had clubbed

> Mesha Sankranti with Spring Equinox and also with Ashvini nakshatra

> simultaneously! And to claim authenticity for his lies, he had

> taken recourse to yet another patent lie that that knowledge was

> revealed to him by Surya Bhagwan himself!

> The case with today's " Vedic astrologers " is hardly any different!

> They have been groping in darkness over the last several centuries

> for the Ayanamsha lark! Obviously, since the skies are not going

to

> fall, they are not going to cath that lark!

> With regards,

> AvtarKrishen Kaul

>

> PS I must put on record that I find your discussions very

> knowledgable and in the real spirit of a seeker of truth!

> AKK

> , " Finn Wandahl "

> <finn.wandahl@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mr. Gopal Goel,

> >

> > Gopal Goel wrote:

> >

> > >>Vishnu Purana and Brihat Hora Shastra was narrated by sage

> Parasara

> > to his disciple Matrayee about in 2000B.C. Kindly refer chapter 8

> of

> > second Ansh of Vishnu purana. this chapter will give information

on

> > Sidreal and tropical Zodiac.Kindly particularly refer Sloka's 74

to

> > 81. these sloka clearly indicate that V.E.POINT was in 1st Charn

of

> > star Kritika.<<

> >

> > Not having my books with me I am not able to verify, but I seem to

> > remember when researching Vishnu Puranas and reading this, I

> realized

> > that I had seen it somewhere before. If I remember correctly I

> found

> > out that Vishnu Purana was simply quoting Vedanga Jyotisha of

> Lagadha

> > in ch. 8 sl. 74-81.

> >

> > Lagadha gives the Nakshatra positions of the vernal equinox and

the

> > solstice point in his Vedanga Jyotisha and from this I was able to

> > interpolate the aproximate time-period of Lagadha as being

> somewhare

> > around 1300 BC.

> >

> > Gopal Goel wrote:

> >

> > >>The language of Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra matches with Vishnu

> > Puran.<<

> >

> > This is very correct and they are also both framed with the same

> style

> > of conversation between Sage Parasara and his disciple Maitriya.

> This

> > could in my opinion indicate they were written, collected or

> > re-written by the same people, probably someone some Brahmins

> > belonging to Parasara Gotra.

> >

> > It is a fact that Vishnu Purana has been changed many times, this

> is

> > probably why it is so perfect in its Puranic style like no other

> > Purana. I believe it is possible that BPHS was once a part of

> Vishnu

> > Purana, just like Narada Samhita is part of the Narada Purana.

Then

> > perhaps later on someone removed it.

> >

> > Also you can find small hints in BPHS about Brahma Vidya (Nature

of

> > Brahma) reflecting exactly the same Brahma Vidya as in Vishnu

> Purana,

> > which can again be found in Maitriya Upanishad and in Atharva-

Veda

> as

> > well.

> >

> > Gopal Goel wrote:

> >

> > >>The famous commentator of Varha Mihri works -BHATOTPAL had

> > acknowledged in his works that he could not lay hand on BPHS.This

> > shows that Bphs was known and eamous even 1500 years back in

> India.<<

> >

> > Please, your deduction is not correct. The fact that Bhatophala

> never

> > saw BPHS is more likely because it was not yet written. He could

> also

> > be talking about the earlier version of Parasara Hora (also know

as

> > Saktiputra Hora) which has been lost for a very long time. Even

> that

> > earlier version was not written by the Vedic sage Parasara and it

> was

> > not written in the Vedic period.

> >

> > By the way, Al Biruni also never saw BPHS when he came to India in

> > year 1000 AD, but he mentioned all the other old textbook like

> > Saravali, Varaha Mihira etc. in his book " India " . I think this

> simply

> > indicate that the old version of Parasara Hora was lost at that

> time,

> > and the new one that we know today was not yet written.

> >

> > Very friendly,

> > Finn Wandahl

> >

>