Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 sreenadh ji namashkar great work indeed keep it up i am watching u write for couple of years and got references that ur knowledgeble in scriptures but now your funneling wat u got in you and you are rocking with your prediction blitz i never saw u give so many predictions in short time you always stick to litarature, my eyes burning now it is long one to read and keep coming, eagarly waiting for the next episode takecare godbless. kumar. --- Sreenadh <sreesog wrote: > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > ======================= > > > Introduction > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious > subject. The literary > history presented by available slokas from Rishi > horas and our modern > understanding about the history of India does not > match. Even the > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, > Upanishads and Epics does > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana > astrology prevalent in > this country. The names of signs are neither > mentioned in vedas nor in > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect > more of Tropical > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on > stellar divisions. > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in > Yajnavalkya Smiriti, and > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which > we have no idea. The > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also > known as Jyotishmati > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other > Upanishad. Many slokas > from this text is still available and it is clear > that by the period of > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became > a full-fledged > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most > scientific approach > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving > maximum importance > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and > minute time divisions > indicates a the evolvement of this science from > Yogic or Tantic > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the > lost Sindhu-Saraswati > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in > India in the ancient > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one > different from that of the > vedic knowledge. > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas > deal with astrology for > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner > as depicted in Skanda > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya > sidhanta (Nirayana > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic > path (Tropical > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link > or mix-up is also > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel > that there existed > a system of predictive astrology completely based on > stellar divisions > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive > system. It is also > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based > astrology followed > different paths in development and application, > prior to the mix-up of > the two to form the perfect system. > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject > in detail to have a > detailed understanding so that our views would more > closer to truth, > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of > ancient astrology depicted > in- > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > * Tantric Literature > > * Epics and Puranas > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our > clarity in > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation > that prompted me to > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in > detail. Possibly this > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based > prediction system > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of > astrology. > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that > should be kept in mind > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that > had undergone > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though > the original text and > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later > additions and interpolations > happened to this text continuously, as evident from > the history of > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 > as per our > current archeological understanding. The original > Sanskrit texts like > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and > Ramayana might have > originally been written using a script similar to > Sindhu-Saraswati > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might > have been imparted to > generations by memorizing the slokas through > guru-sishya parampara. With > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must > have been modified > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its > grammar. The > modifications and interpolations must have continued > for generations > there after and the texts that are available to us > are survival remains > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. > There is no point > in denying this fact out of national pride or > religious fundamentalism. > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics > might have withstood > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner > thread of knowledge > possibly we could locate in them should point to the > original knowledge > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and > Buddha religions, it > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was > written around AD > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic > kings, and revived > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic > kings and their > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, > and injected the > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste > pride to most of the > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an > example of the same. > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' > depicted in > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we > shouldn't forget > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' > existed as > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many > other texts by this > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and > has covered good > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in > a state of > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that > this is a wrong > conclusion. We might have lost the true > understanding of `vedic > astrology' in the course, since people started > giving more > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended > more on fixed Signs > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic > system. > > Vedic Astrology > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' > or > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology > was a child > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the > vedic > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar > divisions of the lunar > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system > considering the > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal > divisions of the zodiac (27 > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum > importance especially > related to calendar calculation and determination of > auspicious days for > === message truncated === ______________________________\ ____ Building a website is a piece of cake. 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Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 dear friends best wishes for a happy and holy festive season to all members. there are tomes of knowledge flowing in this group since i last visited. firstly it is my own opinion too that the vedanga jyotisha refers to astronomy and not astrology. the vedanga jyotisha (astnonomy) was more in knowing the motions of planets and to fix muhurtams for doing ceremonies or sacrifices or any functions, rituals etc. secondly, vedic astrology of any type or division is based on hindu mythology and those who wish to teach, practice or study vedic astrology must believe in hindu mythology which treats nonexisting rahu and ketu on or above par with other existing planets. so in vedic astrology, astronomy and mythology are inexplicably intertwined. thirdly, all indians follow lunar calender and we have our own seven days, weeks, fortnights, months and years. shivpuran, vidveshwar samhita, 14th chapter narrates how the week days are allotted to each god and how natives take help of these and astronomy (motion of planets) to decide and know various auspicious timings etc. does this mean the week days were observed in all the previous yugas? i have no answer. hence we can safely assume that we are dealing in a subject which is based half on astronomy and half on mythology and hence this subject cannot be subjected to pass any test of historical proof. ramayana and mahabharata were hitherto treated as itihasa (history) but the present government is swearing on oath in the apex court that these are mythologies and not history. it is sad that the apex court and the government considers the last invaders as history and the rulers before as mythology. my last word is that in mythology, we have to believe in any and every theory and shall not strive to prove which theory is correct or incorrect. with best wishes and blessings pandit arjun www.rudraksharemedy.com , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > ======================= > > > Introduction > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The literary > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our modern > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics does > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology prevalent in > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas nor in > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar divisions. > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya Smiriti, and > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no idea. The > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as Jyotishmati > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many slokas > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the period of > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-fledged > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific approach > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum importance > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time divisions > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu- Saraswati > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the ancient > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that of the > vedic knowledge. > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with astrology for > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in Skanda > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is also > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there existed > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar divisions > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is also > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology followed > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix-up of > the two to form the perfect system. > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to have a > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to truth, > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology depicted > in- > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > * Tantric Literature > > * Epics and Puranas > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that prompted me to > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. Possibly this > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction system > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in mind > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original text and > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and interpolations > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts like > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might have > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-Saraswati > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been imparted to > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya parampara. With > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been modified > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The > modifications and interpolations must have continued for generations > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival remains > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no point > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious fundamentalism. > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have withstood > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of knowledge > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original knowledge > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha religions, it > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written around AD > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and revived > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected the > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most of the > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of the same. > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't forget > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by this > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered good > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a wrong > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed Signs > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. > > Vedic Astrology > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the lunar > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the zodiac (27 > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance especially > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious days for > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the period > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember that, It is > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal with > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within Valmiki > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system of > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to the > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic know how, > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies the > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce reference to > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it proposes is > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. The > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of the same. > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study. > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd century in > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain religions. > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern (Orissa etc - > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured forest > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) totally > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards other > cultures and religions and much more. > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly scriptural > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from within, > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or enlightenment. It is > NOT a text of much spiritual value. > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as literature > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century (with > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to understand > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture of vedic > past should be avoided while dealing with this text. > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may contain > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic astrology, > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor of the > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non- vedic > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this text that > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a mistake of > people who created this text only. > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist and Jain > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated tantra and > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana astrology > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to this). In > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally against that > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the rudiments of > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully corrupted by > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-vedic > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were fanatically in > favor of the vedic culture. > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try only to > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present > around 2nd century AD from this text. > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition prior to > 2nd century AD. > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, there is a > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the worse > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance of true > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive side and > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and things > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will not > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the positive, > creative and constructive. > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. Let us > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of Mahakala > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this study. > > The Sages - the Gurus > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka of > Valmiki Ramayana itself. > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in words, > who was indulged in meditation and self-study. > > - Valmiki Ramayana > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it is said > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma to > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological knowledge was > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge to > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage held the > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga, > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were the > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India the > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and so on. > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have held > that position. > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained this > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition out of > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well. > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts such as > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The texts by > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga Vasishta > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, reading > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master for > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in that > ancient past. > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters of > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them and story > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing with a > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text that has > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject dealt > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process as > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology dealt > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? Skanda > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana tells - > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as Sanaka > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without ego, > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell their > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. > > - Skanda Purana > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are the > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian culture is > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that prior > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text called > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage of the > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text produced by > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights of sage > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a thousand > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the text > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. These > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. Instead of > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you will not > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most. > > Ramayana and vedic astrology > > Ramayana describes Rama as " Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha " [One who > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such as - > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of Adharva > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha), > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that Valmiki > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the astrology dealt > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic knowledge. Since > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a better > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana predictive > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not freeze our > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject, > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. Due to > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into this > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which we may > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and thus > that much careful should be our approach as well. > > (To be continued ……..) > > Love, > > Sreenadh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 sadar pranam! a very nice and informative mail!Sreenadh <sreesog wrote: Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana======================= Introduction History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The literary history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our modern understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics does not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology prevalent in this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas nor in Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar divisions. Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya Smiriti, and the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no idea. The first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as Jyotishmati Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many slokas from this text is still available and it is clear that by the period of this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-fledged system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific approach of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum importance to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time divisions indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu-Saraswati civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the ancient past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that of the vedic knowledge. The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with astrology for sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in Skanda Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is also visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there existed a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar divisions alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is also possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology followed different paths in development and application, prior to the mix-up of the two to form the perfect system. This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to have a detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to truth, than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology depicted in- * Vedas and Upanishads * Tantric Literature * Epics and Puranas - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that prompted me to study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. Possibly this may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction system depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in mind prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original text and story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and interpolations happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts like Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might have originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-Saraswati script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been imparted to generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya parampara. With the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been modified and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The modifications and interpolations must have continued for generations there after and the texts that are available to us are survival remains of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no point in denying this fact out of national pride or religious fundamentalism. Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have withstood these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of knowledge possibly we could locate in them should point to the original knowledge as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. Period of Valmiki Ramayana As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha religions, it is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written around AD 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and revived and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected the religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most of the texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of the same. Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't forget the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by this time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered good grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a wrong conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic astrology' in the course, since people started giving more importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed Signs than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. Vedic Astrology Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the lunar path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the zodiac (27 Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance especially related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious days for festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the period of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember that, It is with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal with while we consider the system of astrology that deals within Valmiki Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system of astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to the extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic know how, exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies the ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce reference to Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it proposes is astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. The astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of the same. The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study. * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd century in the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain religions. It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern (Orissa etc - Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured forest dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) totally corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards other cultures and religions and much more. * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly scriptural ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from within, the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or enlightenment. It is NOT a text of much spiritual value. * It is a good literary text that should be considered as literature only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century (with minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to understand the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture of vedic past should be avoided while dealing with this text. * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may contain the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic astrology, since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor of the vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non-vedic Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this text that would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a mistake of people who created this text only. Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist and Jain - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated tantra and Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana astrology has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to this). In short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally against that is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the rudiments of the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic attributes present in the original text, in a text fully corrupted by some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-vedic spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were fanatically in favor of the vedic culture. * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try only to b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present around 2nd century AD from this text. a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition prior to 2nd century AD. * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, there is a thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the worse texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance of true knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive side and pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and things which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will not witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the positive, creative and constructive. The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. Let us try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of Mahakala (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this study. The Sages - the Gurus Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka of Valmiki Ramayana itself. The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in words, who was indulged in meditation and self-study. - Valmiki Ramayana The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it is said that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma to Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological knowledge was not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge to Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage held the name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga, Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were the chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India the same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and so on. No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have held that position. Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained this knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition out of which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well. Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts such as Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The texts by Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga Vasishta holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, reading Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master for his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in that ancient past. Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters of meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them and story of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing with a text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text that has a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject dealt within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process as shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology dealt within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? Skanda Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana tells - It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as Sanaka etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without ego, and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell their name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. - Skanda Purana These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are the gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian culture is known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that prior to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text called `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage of the same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text produced by hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights of sage Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a thousand ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the text Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. These are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. Instead of getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you will not miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most. Ramayana and vedic astrology Ramayana describes Rama as "Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha" [One who knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such as - Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of Adharva veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha), Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that Valmiki Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the astrology dealt within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic knowledge. Since Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a better chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana predictive astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not freeze our expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject, accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. Due to mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into this book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which we may not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and thus that much careful should be our approach as well. (To be continued ……..) Love, Sreenadh Save all your chat conversations. Find them online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Dear Sreenadh ji, Great introduction with an open mind! Let me thank you for the knowledege you share with us, who are unaware about most of the facts revealed by you. blessings Renu , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > ======================= > > > Introduction > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The literary > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our modern > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics does > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology prevalent in > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas nor in > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar divisions. > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya Smiriti, and > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no idea. The > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as Jyotishmati > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many slokas > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the period of > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-fledged > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific approach > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum importance > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time divisions > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu- Saraswati > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the ancient > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that of the > vedic knowledge. > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with astrology for > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in Skanda > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is also > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there existed > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar divisions > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is also > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology followed > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix- up of > the two to form the perfect system. > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to have a > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to truth, > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology depicted > in- > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > * Tantric Literature > > * Epics and Puranas > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that prompted me to > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. Possibly this > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction system > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in mind > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original text and > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and interpolations > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts like > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might have > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-Saraswati > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been imparted to > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya parampara. With > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been modified > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The > modifications and interpolations must have continued for generations > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival remains > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no point > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious fundamentalism. > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have withstood > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of knowledge > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original knowledge > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha religions, it > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written around AD > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and revived > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected the > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most of the > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of the same. > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't forget > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by this > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered good > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a wrong > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed Signs > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. > > Vedic Astrology > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the lunar > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the zodiac (27 > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance especially > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious days for > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the period > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember that, It is > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal with > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within Valmiki > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system of > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to the > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic know how, > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies the > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce reference to > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it proposes is > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. The > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of the same. > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study. > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd century in > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain religions. > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern (Orissa etc - > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured forest > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) totally > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards other > cultures and religions and much more. > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly scriptural > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from within, > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or enlightenment. It is > NOT a text of much spiritual value. > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as literature > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century (with > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to understand > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture of vedic > past should be avoided while dealing with this text. > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may contain > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic astrology, > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor of the > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non- vedic > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this text that > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a mistake of > people who created this text only. > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist and Jain > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated tantra and > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana astrology > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to this). In > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally against that > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the rudiments of > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully corrupted by > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-vedic > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were fanatically in > favor of the vedic culture. > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try only to > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present > around 2nd century AD from this text. > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition prior to > 2nd century AD. > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, there is a > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the worse > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance of true > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive side and > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and things > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will not > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the positive, > creative and constructive. > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. Let us > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of Mahakala > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this study. > > The Sages - the Gurus > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka of > Valmiki Ramayana itself. > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in words, > who was indulged in meditation and self-study. > > - Valmiki Ramayana > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it is said > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma to > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological knowledge was > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge to > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage held the > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga, > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were the > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India the > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and so on. > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have held > that position. > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained this > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition out of > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well. > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts such as > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The texts by > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga Vasishta > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, reading > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master for > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in that > ancient past. > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters of > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them and story > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing with a > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text that has > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject dealt > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process as > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology dealt > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? Skanda > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana tells - > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as Sanaka > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without ego, > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell their > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. > > - Skanda Purana > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are the > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian culture is > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that prior > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text called > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage of the > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text produced by > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights of sage > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a thousand > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the text > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. These > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. Instead of > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you will not > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most. > > Ramayana and vedic astrology > > Ramayana describes Rama as " Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha " [One who > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such as - > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of Adharva > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha), > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that Valmiki > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the astrology dealt > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic knowledge. Since > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a better > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana predictive > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not freeze our > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject, > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. Due to > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into this > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which we may > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and thus > that much careful should be our approach as well. > > (To be continued ……..) > > Love, > > Sreenadh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Dear Renu ji, Thanks. But I request you to proceed with your contributions - and request you to present your views on the subjects (astrology) we have discussed here (2 planet combination, philosophical foundation of planetary aspects etc) in detail.. Please consider this discussion of 'Astrology in Valmiki Ramayana' as a side thread only - it is NOT our major subject of discussion in this group. Love, Sreenadh , " renunw " <renunw wrote: > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > Great introduction with an open mind! Let me thank you for the > knowledege you share with us, who are unaware about most of the > facts revealed by you. > > blessings > > Renu > > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > > ======================= > > > > > > Introduction > > > > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The > literary > > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our > modern > > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the > > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics > does > > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology > prevalent in > > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas > nor in > > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical > > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar > divisions. > > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya Smiriti, > and > > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no > idea. The > > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as > Jyotishmati > > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many > slokas > > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the > period of > > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-fledged > > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific > approach > > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum > importance > > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time > divisions > > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic > > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu- > Saraswati > > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the > ancient > > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that > of the > > vedic knowledge. > > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with > astrology for > > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in > Skanda > > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana > > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical > > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is > also > > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there > existed > > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar > divisions > > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is > also > > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology > followed > > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix- > up of > > the two to form the perfect system. > > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to > have a > > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to > truth, > > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology > depicted > > in- > > > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > > > * Tantric Literature > > > > * Epics and Puranas > > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in > > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that prompted > me to > > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. > Possibly this > > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction > system > > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. > > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in > mind > > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone > > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original > text and > > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and > interpolations > > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of > > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our > > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts > like > > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might > have > > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-Saraswati > > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been > imparted to > > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya > parampara. With > > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been > modified > > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The > > modifications and interpolations must have continued for > generations > > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival > remains > > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no > point > > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious > fundamentalism. > > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have > withstood > > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of > knowledge > > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original > knowledge > > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha > religions, it > > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written around > AD > > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and > revived > > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their > > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected > the > > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most > of the > > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of the > same. > > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in > > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't > forget > > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as > > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by > this > > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered > good > > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of > > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a wrong > > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic > > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more > > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed > Signs > > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. > > > > Vedic Astrology > > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or > > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child > > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic > > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the > lunar > > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the > > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the > zodiac (27 > > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance > especially > > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious > days for > > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of > > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the > period > > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember that, > It is > > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal with > > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within Valmiki > > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system of > > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to > the > > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic know > how, > > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana > > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies > the > > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce > reference to > > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it > proposes is > > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. The > > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of the > same. > > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study. > > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd > century in > > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings > > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain > religions. > > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern (Orissa > etc - > > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured > forest > > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) > > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) totally > > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards > other > > cultures and religions and much more. > > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly > scriptural > > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from > within, > > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or enlightenment. > It is > > NOT a text of much spiritual value. > > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as > literature > > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century (with > > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage > > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. > > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to > understand > > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and > > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high > > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture of > vedic > > past should be avoided while dealing with this text. > > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may > contain > > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic > astrology, > > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor > of the > > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non- > vedic > > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this > text that > > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a > mistake of > > people who created this text only. > > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist > and Jain > > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated > tantra and > > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana > astrology > > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its > > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the > > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as > > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to > this). In > > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally against > that > > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic > > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out > > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old > > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the > rudiments of > > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic > > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully corrupted > by > > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-vedic > > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were > fanatically in > > favor of the vedic culture. > > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try > only to > > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present > > around 2nd century AD from this text. > > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition > prior to > > 2nd century AD. > > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the > > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, > there is a > > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the > worse > > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance of > true > > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive side > and > > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and > things > > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will > not > > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the > positive, > > creative and constructive. > > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. > Let us > > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of > Mahakala > > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this > study. > > > > The Sages - the Gurus > > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka > of > > Valmiki Ramayana itself. > > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in > words, > > who was indulged in meditation and self-study. > > > > - Valmiki Ramayana > > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some > > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it > is said > > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma > to > > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological > knowledge was > > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge to > > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The > > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage held > the > > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga, > > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi > > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were the > > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable > > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India > the > > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and > so on. > > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have > held > > that position. > > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not > > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained > this > > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada > > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition > out of > > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many > > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well. > > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts > such as > > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The > texts by > > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga Vasishta > > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual > > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, > reading > > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master > for > > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in > that > > ancient past. > > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters of > > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them and > story > > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning > > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing > with a > > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text > that has > > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject > dealt > > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process as > > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology dealt > > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. > > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? > Skanda > > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana > tells - > > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as > Sanaka > > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without > ego, > > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell > their > > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. > > > > - Skanda Purana > > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are > the > > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian > culture is > > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is > > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that > prior > > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text > called > > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important > > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage of > the > > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text > produced by > > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights > of sage > > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a > thousand > > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the > text > > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the > > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. > These > > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. > Instead of > > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with > > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you > will not > > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient > > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most. > > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology > > > > Ramayana describes Rama as " Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha " [One who > > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such > as - > > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of > Adharva > > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha), > > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that > Valmiki > > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the astrology > dealt > > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic knowledge. > Since > > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and > > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a > better > > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana > predictive > > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not > freeze our > > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject, > > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. > Due to > > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into > this > > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which > we may > > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and > thus > > that much careful should be our approach as well. > > > > (To be continued ……..) > > > > Love, > > > > Sreenadh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Dear Sreenadh ji, Sure...when appropriate I will do so. blessings Renu -- In , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Renu ji, > Thanks. But I request you to proceed with your contributions - and > request you to present your views on the subjects (astrology) we have > discussed here (2 planet combination, philosophical foundation of > planetary aspects etc) in detail.. Please consider this discussion > of 'Astrology in Valmiki Ramayana' as a side thread only - it is NOT > our major subject of discussion in this group. > Love, > Sreenadh > > , " renunw " <renunw@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > > > Great introduction with an open mind! Let me thank you for the > > knowledege you share with us, who are unaware about most of the > > facts revealed by you. > > > > blessings > > > > Renu > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > > > ======================= > > > > > > > > > Introduction > > > > > > > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The > > literary > > > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our > > modern > > > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the > > > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics > > does > > > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology > > prevalent in > > > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas > > nor in > > > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical > > > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar > > divisions. > > > > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya Smiriti, > > and > > > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no > > idea. The > > > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as > > Jyotishmati > > > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many > > slokas > > > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the > > period of > > > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full- fledged > > > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific > > approach > > > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum > > importance > > > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time > > divisions > > > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic > > > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu- > > Saraswati > > > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the > > ancient > > > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that > > of the > > > vedic knowledge. > > > > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with > > astrology for > > > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in > > Skanda > > > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana > > > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical > > > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is > > also > > > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there > > existed > > > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar > > divisions > > > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is > > also > > > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology > > followed > > > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix- > > up of > > > the two to form the perfect system. > > > > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to > > have a > > > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to > > truth, > > > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology > > depicted > > > in- > > > > > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > > > > > * Tantric Literature > > > > > > * Epics and Puranas > > > > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in > > > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that prompted > > me to > > > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. > > Possibly this > > > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction > > system > > > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. > > > > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in > > mind > > > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone > > > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original > > text and > > > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and > > interpolations > > > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of > > > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > > > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our > > > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts > > like > > > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might > > have > > > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu- Saraswati > > > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been > > imparted to > > > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya > > parampara. With > > > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been > > modified > > > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The > > > modifications and interpolations must have continued for > > generations > > > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival > > remains > > > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no > > point > > > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious > > fundamentalism. > > > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have > > withstood > > > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of > > knowledge > > > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original > > knowledge > > > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > > > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha > > religions, it > > > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written around > > AD > > > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and > > revived > > > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their > > > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected > > the > > > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most > > of the > > > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of the > > same. > > > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in > > > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't > > forget > > > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as > > > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by > > this > > > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered > > good > > > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of > > > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a wrong > > > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic > > > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more > > > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed > > Signs > > > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. > > > > > > Vedic Astrology > > > > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or > > > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child > > > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic > > > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the > > lunar > > > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the > > > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the > > zodiac (27 > > > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance > > especially > > > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious > > days for > > > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of > > > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the > > period > > > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember that, > > It is > > > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal with > > > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within Valmiki > > > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system of > > > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to > > the > > > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic know > > how, > > > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana > > > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies > > the > > > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce > > reference to > > > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it > > proposes is > > > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. The > > > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of the > > same. > > > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study. > > > > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd > > century in > > > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings > > > > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain > > religions. > > > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern (Orissa > > etc - > > > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured > > forest > > > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) > > > > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) totally > > > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards > > other > > > cultures and religions and much more. > > > > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly > > scriptural > > > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from > > within, > > > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or enlightenment. > > It is > > > NOT a text of much spiritual value. > > > > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as > > literature > > > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century (with > > > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage > > > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. > > > > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to > > understand > > > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and > > > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high > > > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture of > > vedic > > > past should be avoided while dealing with this text. > > > > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may > > contain > > > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic > > astrology, > > > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor > > of the > > > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non- > > vedic > > > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this > > text that > > > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a > > mistake of > > > people who created this text only. > > > > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist > > and Jain > > > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated > > tantra and > > > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana > > astrology > > > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its > > > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the > > > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as > > > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to > > this). In > > > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally against > > that > > > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic > > > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out > > > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old > > > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the > > rudiments of > > > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic > > > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully corrupted > > by > > > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non- vedic > > > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were > > fanatically in > > > favor of the vedic culture. > > > > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try > > only to > > > > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present > > > around 2nd century AD from this text. > > > > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition > > prior to > > > 2nd century AD. > > > > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the > > > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, > > there is a > > > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the > > worse > > > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance of > > true > > > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive side > > and > > > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and > > things > > > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will > > not > > > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the > > positive, > > > creative and constructive. > > > > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. > > Let us > > > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of > > Mahakala > > > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this > > study. > > > > > > The Sages - the Gurus > > > > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka > > of > > > Valmiki Ramayana itself. > > > > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in > > words, > > > who was indulged in meditation and self-study. > > > > > > - Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some > > > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it > > is said > > > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma > > to > > > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological > > knowledge was > > > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge to > > > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The > > > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage held > > the > > > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga, > > > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi > > > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were the > > > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable > > > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India > > the > > > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and > > so on. > > > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have > > held > > > that position. > > > > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not > > > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained > > this > > > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada > > > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition > > out of > > > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many > > > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well. > > > > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts > > such as > > > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The > > texts by > > > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga Vasishta > > > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual > > > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, > > reading > > > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master > > for > > > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in > > that > > > ancient past. > > > > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters of > > > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them and > > story > > > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning > > > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing > > with a > > > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text > > that has > > > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject > > dealt > > > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process as > > > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology dealt > > > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. > > > > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? > > Skanda > > > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana > > tells - > > > > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as > > Sanaka > > > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without > > ego, > > > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell > > their > > > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. > > > > > > - Skanda Purana > > > > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are > > the > > > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian > > culture is > > > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is > > > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that > > prior > > > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text > > called > > > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important > > > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage of > > the > > > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text > > produced by > > > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights > > of sage > > > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a > > thousand > > > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the > > text > > > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the > > > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. > > These > > > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. > > Instead of > > > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with > > > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you > > will not > > > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient > > > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most. > > > > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology > > > > > > Ramayana describes Rama as " Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha " [One who > > > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such > > as - > > > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of > > Adharva > > > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha), > > > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > > > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that > > Valmiki > > > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the astrology > > dealt > > > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic knowledge. > > Since > > > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and > > > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a > > better > > > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana > > predictive > > > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not > > freeze our > > > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject, > > > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. > > Due to > > > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into > > this > > > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which > > we may > > > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and > > thus > > > that much careful should be our approach as well. > > > > > > (To be continued ……..) > > > > > > Love, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Thank you for a glimpse of the history of Vedic astrology and India. One question I have. Is there any text that describes the correct morals and ethics that the practitioners of Vedic astrology should practice? Love and Peace. Nickie ScottOn Oct 15, 2007, at 11:12 PM, Sreenadh wrote:Dear Arjun ji,Good to see you active after so many days. Please contribute to the forum discussion with your valuable knowledge. Hope to hear from you more.Love,Sreenadh--- In , "panditarjun2004" <panditarjun2004 wrote:>> dear friends> > best wishes for a happy and holy festive season to all members. > there are tomes of knowledge flowing in this group since i last > visited.> > firstly it is my own opinion too that the vedanga jyotisha refers to > astronomy and not astrology. the vedanga jyotisha (astnonomy) was > more in knowing the motions of planets and to fix muhurtams for doing > ceremonies or sacrifices or any functions, rituals etc.> > secondly, vedic astrology of any type or division is based on hindu > mythology and those who wish to teach, practice or study vedic > astrology must believe in hindu mythology which treats nonexisting > rahu and ketu on or above par with other existing planets. so in > vedic astrology, astronomy and mythology are inexplicably intertwined.> > thirdly, all indians follow lunar calender and we have our own seven > days, weeks, fortnights, months and years. shivpuran, vidveshwar > samhita, 14th chapter narrates how the week days are allotted to each > god and how natives take help of these and astronomy (motion of > planets) to decide and know various auspicious timings etc. does > this mean the week days were observed in all the previous yugas? i > have no answer.> > hence we can safely assume that we are dealing in a subject which is > based half on astronomy and half on mythology and hence this subject > cannot be subjected to pass any test of historical proof. > > ramayana and mahabharata were hitherto treated as itihasa (history) > but the present government is swearing on oath in the apex court that > these are mythologies and not history. it is sad that the apex court > and the government considers the last invaders as history and the > rulers before as mythology.> > my last word is that in mythology, we have to believe in any and > every theory and shall not strive to prove which theory is correct or > incorrect.> > with best wishes and blessings> pandit arjun> www.rudraksharemedy.com> > --- In , "Sreenadh" > <sreesog@> wrote:> >> > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana> > =======================> > > > > > Introduction> > > > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The > literary> > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our > modern> > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the> > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics > does> > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology prevalent > in> > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas > nor in> > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical> > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar > divisions.> > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya Smiriti, > and> > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no > idea. The> > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as > Jyotishmati> > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many > slokas> > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the > period of> > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-fledged> > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific > approach> > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum > importance> > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time > divisions> > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic> > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu-> Saraswati> > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the > ancient> > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that of > the> > vedic knowledge.> > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with > astrology for> > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in > Skanda> > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana> > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical> > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is > also> > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there > existed> > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar > divisions> > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is > also> > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology > followed> > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix-up > of> > the two to form the perfect system.> > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to > have a> > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to truth,> > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology > depicted> > in-> > > > * Vedas and Upanishads> > > > * Tantric Literature> > > > * Epics and Puranas> > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in> > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that prompted > me to> > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. Possibly > this> > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction > system> > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology.> > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in > mind> > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone> > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original text > and> > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and > interpolations> > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of> > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana.> > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our> > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts > like> > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might have> > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-Saraswati> > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been imparted > to> > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya parampara. > With> > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been > modified> > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The> > modifications and interpolations must have continued for generations> > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival > remains> > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no > point> > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious > fundamentalism.> > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have withstood> > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of > knowledge> > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original > knowledge> > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past.> > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana> > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha > religions, it> > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written around > AD> > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and > revived> > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their> > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected the> > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most of > the> > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of the > same.> > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in> > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't forget> > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as> > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by > this> > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered > good> > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of> > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a wrong> > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic> > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more> > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed > Signs> > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system.> > > > Vedic Astrology> > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or> > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child> > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic> > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the lunar> > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the> > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the zodiac > (27> > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance > especially> > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious > days for> > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of> > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the > period> > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember that, > It is> > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal with> > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within Valmiki> > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system of> > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to the> > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic know > how,> > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana> > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies the> > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce > reference to> > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it > proposes is> > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. The> > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of the > same.> > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study.> > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd > century in> > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings> > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain > religions.> > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern (Orissa > etc -> > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured forest> > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!)> > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) totally> > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards > other> > cultures and religions and much more.> > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly scriptural> > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from > within,> > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or enlightenment. > It is> > NOT a text of much spiritual value.> > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as literature> > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century (with> > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage> > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to.> > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to > understand> > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and> > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high> > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture of > vedic> > past should be avoided while dealing with this text.> > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may > contain> > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic astrology,> > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor > of the> > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non-> vedic> > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this text > that> > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a > mistake of> > people who created this text only.> > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist and > Jain> > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated > tantra and> > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana > astrology> > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its> > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the> > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as> > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to this). > In> > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally against > that> > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic> > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out> > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old> > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the rudiments > of> > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic> > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully corrupted > by> > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-vedic> > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were fanatically > in> > favor of the vedic culture.> > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try > only to> > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present> > around 2nd century AD from this text.> > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition > prior to> > 2nd century AD.> > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the> > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, there > is a> > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the > worse> > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance of > true> > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive side > and> > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and > things> > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will not> > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the > positive,> > creative and constructive.> > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. Let > us> > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of > Mahakala> > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this > study.> > > > The Sages - the Gurus> > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka of> > Valmiki Ramayana itself.> > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in > words,> > who was indulged in meditation and self-study.> > > > - Valmiki Ramayana> > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some> > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it is > said> > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma to> > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological knowledge > was> > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge to> > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The> > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage held > the> > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga,> > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi> > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were the> > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable> > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India the> > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and > so on.> > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have > held> > that position.> > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not> > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained > this> > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada> > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition out > of> > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many> > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well.> > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts > such as> > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The > texts by> > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga Vasishta> > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual> > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, > reading> > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master > for> > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in > that> > ancient past.> > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters of> > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them and > story> > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning> > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing > with a> > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text > that has> > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject > dealt> > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process as> > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology dealt> > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well.> > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? > Skanda> > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana > tells -> > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as > Sanaka> > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without > ego,> > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell > their> > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana.> > > > - Skanda Purana> > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are > the> > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian > culture is> > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is> > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that > prior> > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text > called> > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important> > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage of > the> > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text produced > by> > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights of > sage> > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a > thousand> > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the text> > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the> > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. > These> > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. Instead > of> > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with> > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you will > not> > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient> > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most.> > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology> > > > Ramayana describes Rama as "Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha" [One who> > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such > as -> > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of > Adharva> > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha),> > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar> > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that > Valmiki> > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the astrology > dealt> > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic knowledge. > Since> > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and> > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a > better> > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana > predictive> > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not > freeze our> > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject,> > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. > Due to> > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into > this> > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which we > may> > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and > thus> > that much careful should be our approach as well.> > > > (To be continued ……..)> > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Dear Nickie ji, Yes - there is. Like many other good books on astrology - or rather better than them - Brihat Samhita presents the correct morals, ethics, practices, life style etc that an astrologer (sorry not vedic!) should follow. Actually only a knowledgeable individual with proper knowledge about astrology, allied subjects and society who is leading a life in the light of his own inner light can become a good astrologer - Brihat samhita provides the scale to judge the true astrologer. But if you start measuring astrologers as per the scale provided by Mihira in Brihat Samhita - then possibly you won't find even a single one who could pass that test. :=) Love, Sreenadh , Nickie Jan Scott <n.scott wrote: > > Thank you for a glimpse of the history of Vedic astrology and India. > One question I have. Is there any text that describes the correct > morals and ethics that the practitioners of Vedic astrology should > practice? > > Love and Peace. Nickie Scott > On Oct 15, 2007, at 11:12 PM, Sreenadh wrote: > > > Dear Arjun ji, > > Good to see you active after so many days. Please contribute to the > > forum discussion with your valuable knowledge. Hope to hear from you > > more. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , " panditarjun2004 " > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > best wishes for a happy and holy festive season to all members. > > > there are tomes of knowledge flowing in this group since i last > > > visited. > > > > > > firstly it is my own opinion too that the vedanga jyotisha refers > > to > > > astronomy and not astrology. the vedanga jyotisha (astnonomy) was > > > more in knowing the motions of planets and to fix muhurtams for > > doing > > > ceremonies or sacrifices or any functions, rituals etc. > > > > > > secondly, vedic astrology of any type or division is based on hindu > > > mythology and those who wish to teach, practice or study vedic > > > astrology must believe in hindu mythology which treats nonexisting > > > rahu and ketu on or above par with other existing planets. so in > > > vedic astrology, astronomy and mythology are inexplicably > > intertwined. > > > > > > thirdly, all indians follow lunar calender and we have our own > > seven > > > days, weeks, fortnights, months and years. shivpuran, vidveshwar > > > samhita, 14th chapter narrates how the week days are allotted to > > each > > > god and how natives take help of these and astronomy (motion of > > > planets) to decide and know various auspicious timings etc. does > > > this mean the week days were observed in all the previous yugas? i > > > have no answer. > > > > > > hence we can safely assume that we are dealing in a subject which > > is > > > based half on astronomy and half on mythology and hence this > > subject > > > cannot be subjected to pass any test of historical proof. > > > > > > ramayana and mahabharata were hitherto treated as itihasa (history) > > > but the present government is swearing on oath in the apex court > > that > > > these are mythologies and not history. it is sad that the apex > > court > > > and the government considers the last invaders as history and the > > > rulers before as mythology. > > > > > > my last word is that in mythology, we have to believe in any and > > > every theory and shall not strive to prove which theory is correct > > or > > > incorrect. > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > pandit arjun > > > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > > > > ======================= > > > > > > > > > > > > Introduction > > > > > > > > > > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The > > > literary > > > > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our > > > modern > > > > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the > > > > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics > > > does > > > > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology > > prevalent > > > in > > > > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas > > > nor in > > > > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical > > > > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar > > > divisions. > > > > > > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya > > Smiriti, > > > and > > > > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no > > > idea. The > > > > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as > > > Jyotishmati > > > > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many > > > slokas > > > > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the > > > period of > > > > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full- fledged > > > > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific > > > approach > > > > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum > > > importance > > > > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time > > > divisions > > > > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic > > > > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu- > > > Saraswati > > > > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the > > > ancient > > > > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that > > of > > > the > > > > vedic knowledge. > > > > > > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with > > > astrology for > > > > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in > > > Skanda > > > > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana > > > > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical > > > > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is > > > also > > > > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there > > > existed > > > > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar > > > divisions > > > > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is > > > also > > > > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology > > > followed > > > > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix- > > up > > > of > > > > the two to form the perfect system. > > > > > > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to > > > have a > > > > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to > > truth, > > > > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology > > > depicted > > > > in- > > > > > > > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > > > > > > > * Tantric Literature > > > > > > > > * Epics and Puranas > > > > > > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in > > > > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that > > prompted > > > me to > > > > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. > > Possibly > > > this > > > > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction > > > system > > > > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. > > > > > > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in > > > mind > > > > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone > > > > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original > > text > > > and > > > > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and > > > interpolations > > > > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of > > > > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > > > > > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our > > > > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts > > > like > > > > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might > > have > > > > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu- Saraswati > > > > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been > > imparted > > > to > > > > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya > > parampara. > > > With > > > > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been > > > modified > > > > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The > > > > modifications and interpolations must have continued for > > generations > > > > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival > > > remains > > > > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no > > > point > > > > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious > > > fundamentalism. > > > > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have > > withstood > > > > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of > > > knowledge > > > > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original > > > knowledge > > > > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > > > > > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha > > > religions, it > > > > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written > > around > > > AD > > > > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and > > > revived > > > > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their > > > > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected > > the > > > > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most > > of > > > the > > > > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of > > the > > > same. > > > > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in > > > > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't > > forget > > > > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as > > > > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by > > > this > > > > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered > > > good > > > > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of > > > > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a > > wrong > > > > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic > > > > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more > > > > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed > > > Signs > > > > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrology > > > > > > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or > > > > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child > > > > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic > > > > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the > > lunar > > > > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the > > > > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the > > zodiac > > > (27 > > > > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance > > > especially > > > > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious > > > days for > > > > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of > > > > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the > > > period > > > > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember > > that, > > > It is > > > > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal > > with > > > > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within > > Valmiki > > > > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system > > of > > > > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to > > the > > > > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic > > know > > > how, > > > > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana > > > > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies > > the > > > > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce > > > reference to > > > > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it > > > proposes is > > > > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac. > > The > > > > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of > > the > > > same. > > > > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study. > > > > > > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd > > > century in > > > > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings > > > > > > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain > > > religions. > > > > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern > > (Orissa > > > etc - > > > > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured > > forest > > > > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) > > > > > > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) > > totally > > > > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards > > > other > > > > cultures and religions and much more. > > > > > > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly > > scriptural > > > > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from > > > within, > > > > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or > > enlightenment. > > > It is > > > > NOT a text of much spiritual value. > > > > > > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as > > literature > > > > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century > > (with > > > > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage > > > > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. > > > > > > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to > > > understand > > > > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and > > > > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high > > > > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture > > of > > > vedic > > > > past should be avoided while dealing with this text. > > > > > > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may > > > contain > > > > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic > > astrology, > > > > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor > > > of the > > > > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non- > > > vedic > > > > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this > > text > > > that > > > > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a > > > mistake of > > > > people who created this text only. > > > > > > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist > > and > > > Jain > > > > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated > > > tantra and > > > > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana > > > astrology > > > > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its > > > > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the > > > > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as > > > > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to > > this). > > > In > > > > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally > > against > > > that > > > > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic > > > > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out > > > > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old > > > > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the > > rudiments > > > of > > > > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic > > > > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully > > corrupted > > > by > > > > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non- vedic > > > > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were > > fanatically > > > in > > > > favor of the vedic culture. > > > > > > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try > > > only to > > > > > > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present > > > > around 2nd century AD from this text. > > > > > > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition > > > prior to > > > > 2nd century AD. > > > > > > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the > > > > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, > > there > > > is a > > > > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the > > > worse > > > > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance > > of > > > true > > > > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive > > side > > > and > > > > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and > > > things > > > > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will > > not > > > > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the > > > positive, > > > > creative and constructive. > > > > > > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana. > > Let > > > us > > > > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of > > > Mahakala > > > > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this > > > study. > > > > > > > > The Sages - the Gurus > > > > > > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka > > of > > > > Valmiki Ramayana itself. > > > > > > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in > > > words, > > > > who was indulged in meditation and self-study. > > > > > > > > - Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some > > > > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it > > is > > > said > > > > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma > > to > > > > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological > > knowledge > > > was > > > > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge > > to > > > > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The > > > > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage > > held > > > the > > > > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga, > > > > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi > > > > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were > > the > > > > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable > > > > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India > > the > > > > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and > > > so on. > > > > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have > > > held > > > > that position. > > > > > > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not > > > > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained > > > this > > > > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada > > > > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition > > out > > > of > > > > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many > > > > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well. > > > > > > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts > > > such as > > > > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The > > > texts by > > > > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga > > Vasishta > > > > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual > > > > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, > > > reading > > > > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master > > > for > > > > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in > > > that > > > > ancient past. > > > > > > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters > > of > > > > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them > > and > > > story > > > > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning > > > > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing > > > with a > > > > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text > > > that has > > > > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject > > > dealt > > > > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process > > as > > > > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology > > dealt > > > > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. > > > > > > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they? > > > Skanda > > > > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana > > > tells - > > > > > > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as > > > Sanaka > > > > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without > > > ego, > > > > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell > > > their > > > > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. > > > > > > > > - Skanda Purana > > > > > > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are > > > the > > > > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian > > > culture is > > > > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is > > > > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that > > > prior > > > > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text > > > called > > > > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important > > > > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage > > of > > > the > > > > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text > > produced > > > by > > > > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights > > of > > > sage > > > > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a > > > thousand > > > > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the > > text > > > > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the > > > > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage. > > > These > > > > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. > > Instead > > > of > > > > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with > > > > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you > > will > > > not > > > > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient > > > > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most. > > > > > > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology > > > > > > > > Ramayana describes Rama as " Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha " [One who > > > > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such > > > as - > > > > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of > > > Adharva > > > > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha), > > > > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > > > > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that > > > Valmiki > > > > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the > > astrology > > > dealt > > > > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic > > knowledge. > > > Since > > > > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and > > > > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a > > > better > > > > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana > > > predictive > > > > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not > > > freeze our > > > > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject, > > > > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course. > > > Due to > > > > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into > > > this > > > > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which > > we > > > may > > > > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and > > > thus > > > > that much careful should be our approach as well. > > > > > > > > (To be continued ……..) > > > > > > > > Love, > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Dear Sreenadh, Thank you. I will slowly study this text. When I did a google search on this text I found a page that states that Varamihira was an Iranian astronomer. Is this correct? http://www.iranchamber.com/podium/history/030812_varahamihira_iranic_astronomer.php. Is the information here correct? Thank you once again. Peace. Nickie Scott.On Oct 16, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Sreenadh wrote:Dear Nickie ji,Yes - there is. Like many other good books on astrology - or rather better than them - Brihat Samhita presents the correct morals, ethics, practices, life style etc that an astrologer (sorry not vedic!) should follow. Actually only a knowledgeable individual with proper knowledge about astrology, allied subjects and society who is leading a life in the light of his own inner light can become a good astrologer - Brihat samhita provides the scale to judge the true astrologer. But if you start measuring astrologers as per the scale provided by Mihira in Brihat Samhita - then possibly you won't find even a single one who could pass that test. :=) Love,Sreenadh --- In , Nickie Jan Scott <n.scott wrote:>> Thank you for a glimpse of the history of Vedic astrology and India. > One question I have. Is there any text that describes the correct > morals and ethics that the practitioners of Vedic astrology should > practice?> > Love and Peace. Nickie Scott> On Oct 15, 2007, at 11:12 PM, Sreenadh wrote:> > > Dear Arjun ji,> > Good to see you active after so many days. Please contribute to the> > forum discussion with your valuable knowledge. Hope to hear from you> > more.> > Love,> > Sreenadh> >> > --- In , "panditarjun2004"> > <panditarjun2004@> wrote:> > >> > > dear friends> > >> > > best wishes for a happy and holy festive season to all members.> > > there are tomes of knowledge flowing in this group since i last> > > visited.> > >> > > firstly it is my own opinion too that the vedanga jyotisha refers> > to> > > astronomy and not astrology. the vedanga jyotisha (astnonomy) was> > > more in knowing the motions of planets and to fix muhurtams for> > doing> > > ceremonies or sacrifices or any functions, rituals etc.> > >> > > secondly, vedic astrology of any type or division is based on hindu> > > mythology and those who wish to teach, practice or study vedic> > > astrology must believe in hindu mythology which treats nonexisting> > > rahu and ketu on or above par with other existing planets. so in> > > vedic astrology, astronomy and mythology are inexplicably> > intertwined.> > >> > > thirdly, all indians follow lunar calender and we have our own> > seven> > > days, weeks, fortnights, months and years. shivpuran, vidveshwar> > > samhita, 14th chapter narrates how the week days are allotted to> > each> > > god and how natives take help of these and astronomy (motion of> > > planets) to decide and know various auspicious timings etc. does> > > this mean the week days were observed in all the previous yugas? i> > > have no answer.> > >> > > hence we can safely assume that we are dealing in a subject which> > is> > > based half on astronomy and half on mythology and hence this> > subject> > > cannot be subjected to pass any test of historical proof.> > >> > > ramayana and mahabharata were hitherto treated as itihasa (history)> > > but the present government is swearing on oath in the apex court> > that> > > these are mythologies and not history. it is sad that the apex> > court> > > and the government considers the last invaders as history and the> > > rulers before as mythology.> > >> > > my last word is that in mythology, we have to believe in any and> > > every theory and shall not strive to prove which theory is correct> > or> > > incorrect.> > >> > > with best wishes and blessings> > > pandit arjun> > > www.rudraksharemedy.com> > >> > > --- In , "Sreenadh"> > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana> > > > =======================> > > >> > > >> > > > Introduction> > > >> > > >> > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The> > > literary> > > > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our> > > modern> > > > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even the> > > > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and Epics> > > does> > > > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology> > prevalent> > > in> > > > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in vedas> > > nor in> > > > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of Tropical> > > > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar> > > divisions.> > > >> > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya> > Smiriti,> > > and> > > > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no> > > idea. The> > > > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as> > > Jyotishmati> > > > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many> > > slokas> > > > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the> > > period of> > > > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-fledged> > > > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific> > > approach> > > > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum> > > importance> > > > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time> > > divisions> > > > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or Tantic> > > > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost Sindhu-> > > Saraswati> > > > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the> > > ancient> > > > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from that> > of> > > the> > > > vedic knowledge.> > > >> > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with> > > astrology for> > > > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as depicted in> > > Skanda> > > > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta (Nirayana> > > > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path (Tropical> > > > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up is> > > also> > > > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that there> > > existed> > > > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar> > > divisions> > > > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. It is> > > also> > > > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology> > > followed> > > > different paths in development and application, prior to the mix-> > up> > > of> > > > the two to form the perfect system.> > > >> > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in detail to> > > have a> > > > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to> > truth,> > > > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient astrology> > > depicted> > > > in-> > > >> > > > * Vedas and Upanishads> > > >> > > > * Tantric Literature> > > >> > > > * Epics and Puranas> > > >> > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity in> > > > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that> > prompted> > > me to> > > > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail.> > Possibly> > > this> > > > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction> > > system> > > > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology.> > > >> > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept in> > > mind> > > > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had undergone> > > > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original> > text> > > and> > > > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and> > > interpolations> > > > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the history of> > > > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana.> > > >> > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per our> > > > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit texts> > > like> > > > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana might> > have> > > > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-Saraswati> > > > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been> > imparted> > > to> > > > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya> > parampara.> > > With> > > > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been> > > modified> > > > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. The> > > > modifications and interpolations must have continued for> > generations> > > > there after and the texts that are available to us are survival> > > remains> > > > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is no> > > point> > > > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious> > > fundamentalism.> > > > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have> > withstood> > > > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of> > > knowledge> > > > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original> > > knowledge> > > > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past.> > > >> > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana> > > >> > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha> > > religions, it> > > > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written> > around> > > AD> > > > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and> > > revived> > > > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and their> > > > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and injected> > the> > > > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to most> > of> > > the> > > > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of> > the> > > same.> > > > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in> > > > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't> > forget> > > > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as> > > > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other texts by> > > this> > > > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has covered> > > good> > > > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of> > > > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a> > wrong> > > > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of `vedic> > > > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more> > > > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on fixed> > > Signs> > > > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system.> > > >> > > > Vedic Astrology> > > >> > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or> > > > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child> > > > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic> > > > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the> > lunar> > > > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system considering the> > > > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the> > zodiac> > > (27> > > > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance> > > especially> > > > related to calendar calculation and determination of auspicious> > > days for> > > > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture of> > > > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by the> > > period> > > > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember> > that,> > > It is> > > > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal> > with> > > > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within> > Valmiki> > > > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this system> > of> > > > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due to> > the> > > > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic> > know> > > how,> > > > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that Nirayana> > > > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who studies> > the> > > > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce> > > reference to> > > > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it> > > proposes is> > > > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical zodiac.> > The> > > > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of> > the> > > same.> > > > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this study.> > > >> > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd> > > century in> > > > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings> > > >> > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain> > > religions.> > > > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern> > (Orissa> > > etc -> > > > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured> > forest> > > > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!)> > > >> > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know)> > totally> > > > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred towards> > > other> > > > cultures and religions and much more.> > > >> > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly> > scriptural> > > > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from> > > within,> > > > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or> > enlightenment.> > > It is> > > > NOT a text of much spiritual value.> > > >> > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as> > literature> > > > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century> > (with> > > > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great sage> > > > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to.> > > >> > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to> > > understand> > > > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century AD and> > > > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing high> > > > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the culture> > of> > > vedic> > > > past should be avoided while dealing with this text.> > > >> > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may> > > contain> > > > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic> > astrology,> > > > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in favor> > > of the> > > > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to non-> > > vedic> > > > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this> > text> > > that> > > > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a> > > mistake of> > > > people who created this text only.> > > >> > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like Buddhist> > and> > > Jain> > > > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated> > > tantra and> > > > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana> > > astrology> > > > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries its> > > > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the> > > > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as> > > > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to> > this).> > > In> > > > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally> > against> > > that> > > > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with vedic> > > > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out> > > > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the old> > > > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the> > rudiments> > > of> > > > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic> > > > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully> > corrupted> > > by> > > > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-vedic> > > > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were> > fanatically> > > in> > > > favor of the vedic culture.> > > >> > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to try> > > only to> > > >> > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' present> > > > around 2nd century AD from this text.> > > >> > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition> > > prior to> > > > 2nd century AD.> > > >> > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on the> > > > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text,> > there> > > is a> > > > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of the> > > worse> > > > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and ignorance> > of> > > true> > > > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive> > side> > > and> > > > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), and> > > things> > > > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you will> > not> > > > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the> > > positive,> > > > creative and constructive.> > > >> > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki Ramayana.> > Let> > > us> > > > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings of> > > Mahakala> > > > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through this> > > study.> > > >> > > > The Sages - the Gurus> > > >> > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first sloka> > of> > > > Valmiki Ramayana itself.> > > >> > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well versed in> > > words,> > > > who was indulged in meditation and self-study.> > > >> > > > - Valmiki Ramayana> > > >> > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs some> > > > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora it> > is> > > said> > > > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, Brahma> > to> > > > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological> > knowledge> > > was> > > > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this knowledge> > to> > > > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. The> > > > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage> > held> > > the> > > > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, Garga,> > > > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of Rishi> > > > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities were> > the> > > > chancellor position would be held by one of the most knowledgeable> > > > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In India> > the> > > > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya and> > > so on.> > > > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might have> > > held> > > > that position.> > > >> > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is not> > > > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition attained> > > this> > > > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, Narada> > > > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this tradition> > out> > > of> > > > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many> > > > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as well.> > > >> > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many texts> > > such as> > > > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The> > > texts by> > > > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga> > Vasishta> > > > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual> > > > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics,> > > reading> > > > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great master> > > for> > > > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he lived in> > > that> > > > ancient past.> > > >> > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; masters> > of> > > > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them> > and> > > story> > > > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart concerning> > > > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are dealing> > > with a> > > > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a text> > > that has> > > > a great history and importance - let it be related to any subject> > > dealt> > > > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study process> > as> > > > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology> > dealt> > > > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well.> > > >> > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are they?> > > Skanda> > > > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana> > > tells -> > > >> > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as> > > Sanaka> > > > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls without> > > ego,> > > > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will tell> > > their> > > > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana.> > > >> > > > - Skanda Purana> > > >> > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana are> > > the> > > > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian> > > culture is> > > > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is> > > > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said that> > > prior> > > > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text> > > called> > > > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How important> > > > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great sage> > of> > > the> > > > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text> > produced> > > by> > > > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual heights> > of> > > sage> > > > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a> > > thousand> > > > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere the> > text> > > > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to the> > > > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same lineage.> > > These> > > > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology.> > Instead> > > of> > > > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas with> > > > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you> > will> > > not> > > > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient> > > > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value most.> > > >> > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology> > > >> > > > Ramayana describes Rama as "Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha" [One who> > > > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four such> > > as -> > > > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of> > > Adharva> > > > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology (Jyotisha),> > > > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar> > > > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that> > > Valmiki> > > > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the> > astrology> > > dealt> > > > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic> > knowledge.> > > Since> > > > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and> > > > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we have a> > > better> > > > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana> > > predictive> > > > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not> > > freeze our> > > > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the subject,> > > > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the course.> > > Due to> > > > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD into> > > this> > > > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, which> > we> > > may> > > > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, and> > > thus> > > > that much careful should be our approach as well.> > > >> > > > (To be continued ……..)> > > >> > > > Love,> > > >> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Dear Nickie ji, What the document gives is half truth mixed with half lie. He was NOT an iranian astronomer but an indian astrologer, as the page itself describes, after misleading people by its title. Varaha Mihira was an astrologer cum astronomer (but his own experimental knowledge about astronomy must have been limited compared to scholers like Aryabhata lived in the same period)born and lived in Uttain in Rajastan state, India. The names of his books given rightly in that site. Mihira lived around AD 505 - 587 or so. Do a googel search again, or read that article again, or look at the following links, even though they too won't provide complete or enough error free info. 1) http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Varahamihira.html 2) http://www.astrojyoti.com/varahamihirainfo.htm 3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira If you know Sanskrit you can get and read the complete copy of Brihat Samhita of Mihira from : http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_z_misc_sociology_astrology/doc_z_misc_sociology_astro\ logy.html Love, Sreenadh , Nickie Jan Scott <n.scott wrote: > > Dear Sreenadh, > Thank you. I will slowly study this text. When I did a google search > on this text I found a page that states that Varamihira was an > Iranian astronomer. Is this correct? http://www.iranchamber.com/ > podium/history/030812_varahamihira_iranic_astronomer.php. Is the > information here correct? Thank you once again. Peace. Nickie Scott. > On Oct 16, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Sreenadh wrote: > > > Dear Nickie ji, > > Yes - there is. Like many other good books on astrology - or rather > > better than them - Brihat Samhita presents the correct morals, > > ethics, practices, life style etc that an astrologer (sorry not > > vedic!) should follow. Actually only a knowledgeable individual with > > proper knowledge about astrology, allied subjects and society who is > > leading a life in the light of his own inner light can become a good > > astrologer - Brihat samhita provides the scale to judge the true > > astrologer. But if you start measuring astrologers as per the scale > > provided by Mihira in Brihat Samhita - then possibly you won't find > > even a single one who could pass that test. :=) > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , Nickie Jan Scott > > <n.scott@> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for a glimpse of the history of Vedic astrology and > > India. > > > One question I have. Is there any text that describes the correct > > > morals and ethics that the practitioners of Vedic astrology should > > > practice? > > > > > > Love and Peace. Nickie Scott > > > On Oct 15, 2007, at 11:12 PM, Sreenadh wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Arjun ji, > > > > Good to see you active after so many days. Please contribute to > > the > > > > forum discussion with your valuable knowledge. Hope to hear from > > you > > > > more. > > > > Love, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > , " panditarjun2004 " > > > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > > > > > best wishes for a happy and holy festive season to all members. > > > > > there are tomes of knowledge flowing in this group since i last > > > > > visited. > > > > > > > > > > firstly it is my own opinion too that the vedanga jyotisha > > refers > > > > to > > > > > astronomy and not astrology. the vedanga jyotisha (astnonomy) > > was > > > > > more in knowing the motions of planets and to fix muhurtams for > > > > doing > > > > > ceremonies or sacrifices or any functions, rituals etc. > > > > > > > > > > secondly, vedic astrology of any type or division is based on > > hindu > > > > > mythology and those who wish to teach, practice or study vedic > > > > > astrology must believe in hindu mythology which treats > > nonexisting > > > > > rahu and ketu on or above par with other existing planets. so in > > > > > vedic astrology, astronomy and mythology are inexplicably > > > > intertwined. > > > > > > > > > > thirdly, all indians follow lunar calender and we have our own > > > > seven > > > > > days, weeks, fortnights, months and years. shivpuran, vidveshwar > > > > > samhita, 14th chapter narrates how the week days are allotted to > > > > each > > > > > god and how natives take help of these and astronomy (motion of > > > > > planets) to decide and know various auspicious timings etc. does > > > > > this mean the week days were observed in all the previous > > yugas? i > > > > > have no answer. > > > > > > > > > > hence we can safely assume that we are dealing in a subject > > which > > > > is > > > > > based half on astronomy and half on mythology and hence this > > > > subject > > > > > cannot be subjected to pass any test of historical proof. > > > > > > > > > > ramayana and mahabharata were hitherto treated as itihasa > > (history) > > > > > but the present government is swearing on oath in the apex court > > > > that > > > > > these are mythologies and not history. it is sad that the apex > > > > court > > > > > and the government considers the last invaders as history and > > the > > > > > rulers before as mythology. > > > > > > > > > > my last word is that in mythology, we have to believe in any and > > > > > every theory and shall not strive to prove which theory is > > correct > > > > or > > > > > incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > > > pandit arjun > > > > > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > ======================= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Introduction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The > > > > > literary > > > > > > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our > > > > > modern > > > > > > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even > > the > > > > > > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and > > Epics > > > > > does > > > > > > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology > > > > prevalent > > > > > in > > > > > > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in > > vedas > > > > > nor in > > > > > > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of > > Tropical > > > > > > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar > > > > > divisions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya > > > > Smiriti, > > > > > and > > > > > > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no > > > > > idea. The > > > > > > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as > > > > > Jyotishmati > > > > > > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many > > > > > slokas > > > > > > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the > > > > > period of > > > > > > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full- > > fledged > > > > > > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific > > > > > approach > > > > > > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum > > > > > importance > > > > > > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time > > > > > divisions > > > > > > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or > > Tantic > > > > > > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost > > Sindhu- > > > > > Saraswati > > > > > > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the > > > > > ancient > > > > > > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from > > that > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > vedic knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with > > > > > astrology for > > > > > > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as > > depicted in > > > > > Skanda > > > > > > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta > > (Nirayana > > > > > > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path > > (Tropical > > > > > > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up > > is > > > > > also > > > > > > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that > > there > > > > > existed > > > > > > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar > > > > > divisions > > > > > > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system. > > It is > > > > > also > > > > > > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology > > > > > followed > > > > > > different paths in development and application, prior to the > > mix- > > > > up > > > > > of > > > > > > the two to form the perfect system. > > > > > > > > > > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in > > detail to > > > > > have a > > > > > > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to > > > > truth, > > > > > > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient > > astrology > > > > > depicted > > > > > > in- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Vedas and Upanishads > > > > > > > > > > > > * Tantric Literature > > > > > > > > > > > > * Epics and Puranas > > > > > > > > > > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity > > in > > > > > > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that > > > > prompted > > > > > me to > > > > > > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail. > > > > Possibly > > > > > this > > > > > > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction > > > > > system > > > > > > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept > > in > > > > > mind > > > > > > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had > > undergone > > > > > > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original > > > > text > > > > > and > > > > > > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and > > > > > interpolations > > > > > > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the > > history of > > > > > > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per > > our > > > > > > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit > > texts > > > > > like > > > > > > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana > > might > > > > have > > > > > > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu- > > Saraswati > > > > > > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been > > > > imparted > > > > > to > > > > > > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya > > > > parampara. > > > > > With > > > > > > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been > > > > > modified > > > > > > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar. > > The > > > > > > modifications and interpolations must have continued for > > > > generations > > > > > > there after and the texts that are available to us are > > survival > > > > > remains > > > > > > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is > > no > > > > > point > > > > > > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious > > > > > fundamentalism. > > > > > > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have > > > > withstood > > > > > > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past. > > > > > > > > > > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > > > > > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha > > > > > religions, it > > > > > > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written > > > > around > > > > > AD > > > > > > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and > > > > > revived > > > > > > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and > > their > > > > > > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and > > injected > > > > the > > > > > > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to > > most > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of > > > > the > > > > > same. > > > > > > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in > > > > > > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't > > > > forget > > > > > > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as > > > > > > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other > > texts by > > > > > this > > > > > > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has > > covered > > > > > good > > > > > > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of > > > > > > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a > > > > wrong > > > > > > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of > > `vedic > > > > > > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more > > > > > > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on > > fixed > > > > > Signs > > > > > > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or > > > > > > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child > > > > > > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic > > > > > > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the > > > > lunar > > > > > > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system > > considering the > > > > > > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the > > > > zodiac > > > > > (27 > > > > > > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance > > > > > especially > > > > > > related to calendar calculation and determination of > > auspicious > > > > > days for > > > > > > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture > > of > > > > > > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by > > the > > > > > period > > > > > > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember > > > > that, > > > > > It is > > > > > > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal > > > > with > > > > > > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within > > > > Valmiki > > > > > > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this > > system > > > > of > > > > > > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due > > to > > > > the > > > > > > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic > > > > know > > > > > how, > > > > > > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that > > Nirayana > > > > > > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who > > studies > > > > the > > > > > > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce > > > > > reference to > > > > > > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it > > > > > proposes is > > > > > > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical > > zodiac. > > > > The > > > > > > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of > > > > the > > > > > same. > > > > > > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this > > study. > > > > > > > > > > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd > > > > > century in > > > > > > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings > > > > > > > > > > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain > > > > > religions. > > > > > > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern > > > > (Orissa > > > > > etc - > > > > > > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured > > > > forest > > > > > > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!) > > > > > > > > > > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know) > > > > totally > > > > > > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred > > towards > > > > > other > > > > > > cultures and religions and much more. > > > > > > > > > > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly > > > > scriptural > > > > > > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from > > > > > within, > > > > > > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or > > > > enlightenment. > > > > > It is > > > > > > NOT a text of much spiritual value. > > > > > > > > > > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as > > > > literature > > > > > > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century > > > > (with > > > > > > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great > > sage > > > > > > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to. > > > > > > > > > > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to > > > > > understand > > > > > > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century > > AD and > > > > > > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing > > high > > > > > > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the > > culture > > > > of > > > > > vedic > > > > > > past should be avoided while dealing with this text. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may > > > > > contain > > > > > > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic > > > > astrology, > > > > > > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in > > favor > > > > > of the > > > > > > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to > > non- > > > > > vedic > > > > > > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this > > > > text > > > > > that > > > > > > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a > > > > > mistake of > > > > > > people who created this text only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like > > Buddhist > > > > and > > > > > Jain > > > > > > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated > > > > > tantra and > > > > > > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana > > > > > astrology > > > > > > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries > > its > > > > > > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the > > > > > > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as > > > > > > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to > > > > this). > > > > > In > > > > > > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally > > > > against > > > > > that > > > > > > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with > > vedic > > > > > > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out > > > > > > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the > > old > > > > > > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the > > > > rudiments > > > > > of > > > > > > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic > > > > > > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully > > > > corrupted > > > > > by > > > > > > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non- > > vedic > > > > > > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were > > > > fanatically > > > > > in > > > > > > favor of the vedic culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to > > try > > > > > only to > > > > > > > > > > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology' > > present > > > > > > around 2nd century AD from this text. > > > > > > > > > > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition > > > > > prior to > > > > > > 2nd century AD. > > > > > > > > > > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on > > the > > > > > > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text, > > > > there > > > > > is a > > > > > > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of > > the > > > > > worse > > > > > > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and > > ignorance > > > > of > > > > > true > > > > > > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive > > > > side > > > > > and > > > > > > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology), > > and > > > > > things > > > > > > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you > > will > > > > not > > > > > > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the > > > > > positive, > > > > > > creative and constructive. > > > > > > > > > > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki > > Ramayana. > > > > Let > > > > > us > > > > > > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings > > of > > > > > Mahakala > > > > > > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through > > this > > > > > study. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sages - the Gurus > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first > > sloka > > > > of > > > > > > Valmiki Ramayana itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well > > versed in > > > > > words, > > > > > > who was indulged in meditation and self-study. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Valmiki Ramayana > > > > > > > > > > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs > > some > > > > > > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora > > it > > > > is > > > > > said > > > > > > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma, > > Brahma > > > > to > > > > > > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological > > > > knowledge > > > > > was > > > > > > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this > > knowledge > > > > to > > > > > > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others. > > The > > > > > > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage > > > > held > > > > > the > > > > > > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra, > > Garga, > > > > > > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of > > Rishi > > > > > > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities > > were > > > > the > > > > > > chancellor position would be held by one of the most > > knowledgeable > > > > > > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In > > India > > > > the > > > > > > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya > > and > > > > > so on. > > > > > > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might > > have > > > > > held > > > > > > that position. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is > > not > > > > > > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition > > attained > > > > > this > > > > > > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta, > > Narada > > > > > > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this > > tradition > > > > out > > > > > of > > > > > > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many > > > > > > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as > > well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many > > texts > > > > > such as > > > > > > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The > > > > > texts by > > > > > > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga > > > > Vasishta > > > > > > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual > > > > > > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics, > > > > > reading > > > > > > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great > > master > > > > > for > > > > > > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he > > lived in > > > > > that > > > > > > ancient past. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters; > > masters > > > > of > > > > > > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them > > > > and > > > > > story > > > > > > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart > > concerning > > > > > > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are > > dealing > > > > > with a > > > > > > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a > > text > > > > > that has > > > > > > a great history and importance - let it be related to any > > subject > > > > > dealt > > > > > > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study > > process > > > > as > > > > > > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology > > > > dealt > > > > > > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are > > they? > > > > > Skanda > > > > > > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana > > > > > tells - > > > > > > > > > > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as > > > > > Sanaka > > > > > > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls > > without > > > > > ego, > > > > > > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will > > tell > > > > > their > > > > > > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Skanda Purana > > > > > > > > > > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana > > are > > > > > the > > > > > > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian > > > > > culture is > > > > > > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is > > > > > > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said > > that > > > > > prior > > > > > > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text > > > > > called > > > > > > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How > > important > > > > > > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great > > sage > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text > > > > produced > > > > > by > > > > > > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual > > heights > > > > of > > > > > sage > > > > > > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a > > > > > thousand > > > > > > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere > > the > > > > text > > > > > > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to > > the > > > > > > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same > > lineage. > > > > > These > > > > > > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology. > > > > Instead > > > > > of > > > > > > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas > > with > > > > > > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you > > > > will > > > > > not > > > > > > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient > > > > > > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value > > most. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramayana describes Rama as " Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha " [One who > > > > > > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four > > such > > > > > as - > > > > > > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of > > > > > Adharva > > > > > > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology > > (Jyotisha), > > > > > > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), > > Grammar > > > > > > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that > > > > > Valmiki > > > > > > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the > > > > astrology > > > > > dealt > > > > > > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic > > > > knowledge. > > > > > Since > > > > > > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and > > > > > > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we > > have a > > > > > better > > > > > > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana > > > > > predictive > > > > > > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not > > > > > freeze our > > > > > > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the > > subject, > > > > > > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the > > course. > > > > > Due to > > > > > > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD > > into > > > > > this > > > > > > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text, > > which > > > > we > > > > > may > > > > > > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable, > > and > > > > > thus > > > > > > that much careful should be our approach as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > (To be continued ……..) > > > > > > > > > > > > Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Dear Sreenadh, Thank you for the clarification. I will follow the links you sent. Is there an online course in Sanskrit that I can slowly learn Sanskrit from that you would recommend? Peace and Joy. Nickie.On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Sreenadh wrote:Dear Nickie ji,What the document gives is half truth mixed with half lie. He wasNOT an iranian astronomer but an indian astrologer, as the page itselfdescribes, after misleading people by its title. Varaha Mihira was anastrologer cum astronomer (but his own experimental knowledge aboutastronomy must have been limited compared to scholers like Aryabhatalived in the same period)born and lived in Uttain in Rajastan state,India. The names of his books given rightly in that site. Mihira livedaround AD 505 - 587 or so. Do a googel search again, or read thatarticle again, or look at the following links, even though they toowon't provide complete or enough error free info.1) http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Varahamihira.html 2) http://www.astrojyoti.com/varahamihirainfo.htm3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VarahamihiraIf you know Sanskrit you can get and read the complete copy of BrihatSamhita of Mihira from :http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_z_misc_sociology_astrology/doc_z_misc_sociology_astrology.htmlLove,Sreenadh--- In , Nickie Jan Scott<n.scott wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh,> Thank you. I will slowly study this text. When I did a google search > on this text I found a page that states that Varamihira was an > Iranian astronomer. Is this correct? http://www.iranchamber.com/ > podium/history/030812_varahamihira_iranic_astronomer.php. Is the > information here correct? Thank you once again. Peace. Nickie Scott.> On Oct 16, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Sreenadh wrote:> > > Dear Nickie ji,> > Yes - there is. Like many other good books on astrology - or rather> > better than them - Brihat Samhita presents the correct morals,> > ethics, practices, life style etc that an astrologer (sorry not> > vedic!) should follow. Actually only a knowledgeable individual with> > proper knowledge about astrology, allied subjects and society who is> > leading a life in the light of his own inner light can become a good> > astrologer - Brihat samhita provides the scale to judge the true> > astrologer. But if you start measuring astrologers as per the scale> > provided by Mihira in Brihat Samhita - then possibly you won't find> > even a single one who could pass that test. :=)> > Love,> > Sreenadh> >> > --- In , Nickie Jan Scott> > <n.scott@> wrote:> > >> > > Thank you for a glimpse of the history of Vedic astrology and> > India.> > > One question I have. Is there any text that describes the correct> > > morals and ethics that the practitioners of Vedic astrology should> > > practice?> > >> > > Love and Peace. Nickie Scott> > > On Oct 15, 2007, at 11:12 PM, Sreenadh wrote:> > >> > > > Dear Arjun ji,> > > > Good to see you active after so many days. Please contribute to> > the> > > > forum discussion with your valuable knowledge. Hope to hear from> > you> > > > more.> > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > --- In , "panditarjun2004"> > > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > dear friends> > > > >> > > > > best wishes for a happy and holy festive season to all members.> > > > > there are tomes of knowledge flowing in this group since i last> > > > > visited.> > > > >> > > > > firstly it is my own opinion too that the vedanga jyotisha> > refers> > > > to> > > > > astronomy and not astrology. the vedanga jyotisha (astnonomy)> > was> > > > > more in knowing the motions of planets and to fix muhurtams for> > > > doing> > > > > ceremonies or sacrifices or any functions, rituals etc.> > > > >> > > > > secondly, vedic astrology of any type or division is based on> > hindu> > > > > mythology and those who wish to teach, practice or study vedic> > > > > astrology must believe in hindu mythology which treats> > nonexisting> > > > > rahu and ketu on or above par with other existing planets. so in> > > > > vedic astrology, astronomy and mythology are inexplicably> > > > intertwined.> > > > >> > > > > thirdly, all indians follow lunar calender and we have our own> > > > seven> > > > > days, weeks, fortnights, months and years. shivpuran, vidveshwar> > > > > samhita, 14th chapter narrates how the week days are allotted to> > > > each> > > > > god and how natives take help of these and astronomy (motion of> > > > > planets) to decide and know various auspicious timings etc. does> > > > > this mean the week days were observed in all the previous> > yugas? i> > > > > have no answer.> > > > >> > > > > hence we can safely assume that we are dealing in a subject> > which> > > > is> > > > > based half on astronomy and half on mythology and hence this> > > > subject> > > > > cannot be subjected to pass any test of historical proof.> > > > >> > > > > ramayana and mahabharata were hitherto treated as itihasa> > (history)> > > > > but the present government is swearing on oath in the apex court> > > > that> > > > > these are mythologies and not history. it is sad that the apex> > > > court> > > > > and the government considers the last invaders as history and> > the> > > > > rulers before as mythology.> > > > >> > > > > my last word is that in mythology, we have to believe in any and> > > > > every theory and shall not strive to prove which theory is> > correct> > > > or> > > > > incorrect.> > > > >> > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > www.rudraksharemedy.com> > > > >> > > > > --- In , "Sreenadh"> > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Astrology In Valmiki Ramayana> > > > > > =======================> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Introduction> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > History of astrology is a unique and mysterious subject. The> > > > > literary> > > > > > history presented by available slokas from Rishi horas and our> > > > > modern> > > > > > understanding about the history of India does not match. Even> > the> > > > > > literary history as interpreted from Vedas, Upanishads and> > Epics> > > > > does> > > > > > not tally with the literary history of Nirayana astrology> > > > prevalent> > > > > in> > > > > > this country. The names of signs are neither mentioned in> > vedas> > > > > nor in> > > > > > Upanishads. The Vedic literature seems to reflect more of> > Tropical> > > > > > zodiac, and a system of Nirayana astrology based on stellar> > > > > divisions.> > > > > >> > > > > > Possibly the weekdays gets first mentioned in Yajnavalkya> > > > Smiriti,> > > > > and> > > > > > the Signs in Sulba sutras about the period of which we have no> > > > > idea. The> > > > > > first text of Nirayana astrology Skanda Hora (also known as> > > > > Jyotishmati> > > > > > Upanishad) does not get mentioned in any other Upanishad. Many> > > > > slokas> > > > > > from this text is still available and it is clear that by the> > > > > period of> > > > > > this text, Nirayana astrology based on signs became a full-> > fledged> > > > > > system, covering a vast area of knowledge. The most scientific> > > > > approach> > > > > > of texts like Skanda hora and Surya sidhanta giving maximum> > > > > importance> > > > > > to rhythm of the solar system, breath pattern and minute time> > > > > divisions> > > > > > indicates a the evolvement of this science from Yogic or> > Tantic> > > > > > experience. Many associate this knowledge with the lost> > Sindhu-> > > > > Saraswati> > > > > > civilization and the Tantric culture prevalent in India in the> > > > > ancient> > > > > > past. This path of knowledge seems to be one different from> > that> > > > of> > > > > the> > > > > > vedic knowledge.> > > > > >> > > > > > The Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and Puranas deal with> > > > > astrology for> > > > > > sure but not in a comprehensive and perfect manner as> > depicted in> > > > > Skanda> > > > > > Hora (Nirayana Predictive astrology) or Surya sidhanta> > (Nirayana> > > > > > astronomy). They some how seems to follow the Vedic path> > (Tropical> > > > > > zodiac + fixed stellar divisions), but missing link or mix-up> > is> > > > > also> > > > > > visible here and there. These texts give us the feel that> > there> > > > > existed> > > > > > a system of predictive astrology completely based on stellar> > > > > divisions> > > > > > alone, prior to the origin of sign based predictive system.> > It is> > > > > also> > > > > > possible that Sign based and stellar divisions based astrology> > > > > followed> > > > > > different paths in development and application, prior to the> > mix-> > > > up> > > > > of> > > > > > the two to form the perfect system.> > > > > >> > > > > > This condition necessitates scrutinizing the subject in> > detail to> > > > > have a> > > > > > detailed understanding so that our views would more closer to> > > > truth,> > > > > > than that of a passer by. A detailed study of ancient> > astrology> > > > > depicted> > > > > > in-> > > > > >> > > > > > * Vedas and Upanishads> > > > > >> > > > > > * Tantric Literature> > > > > >> > > > > > * Epics and Puranas> > > > > >> > > > > > - is necessary to attain the same, without which our clarity> > in> > > > > > understanding will not emerge. This is the situation that> > > > prompted> > > > > me to> > > > > > study astrology as depicted in Valmiki Ramayana in detail.> > > > Possibly> > > > > this> > > > > > may lead to a better understanding of Stellar based prediction> > > > > system> > > > > > depicted Ramayana and also about the history of astrology.> > > > > >> > > > > > There is one more unique bit of knowledge that should be kept> > in> > > > > mind> > > > > > prior to this study. Valmiki Ramayana is text that had> > undergone> > > > > > numerous revisions through centuries. Even though the original> > > > text> > > > > and> > > > > > story thread might be of even BC 6000 later additions and> > > > > interpolations> > > > > > happened to this text continuously, as evident from the> > history of> > > > > > Ramayana mentioned in Skanda Purana.> > > > > >> > > > > > The Devanagari script didn't existed prior to BC 200 as per> > our> > > > > > current archeological understanding. The original Sanskrit> > texts> > > > > like> > > > > > Vedas, Upanishads, Epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana> > might> > > > have> > > > > > originally been written using a script similar to Sindhu-> > Saraswati> > > > > > script or Proto-Brahmi. Prior to that they might have been> > > > imparted> > > > > to> > > > > > generations by memorizing the slokas through guru-sishya> > > > parampara.> > > > > With> > > > > > the advent of Devanagari script all the texts must have been> > > > > modified> > > > > > and rewritten using the new rectified script and its grammar.> > The> > > > > > modifications and interpolations must have continued for> > > > generations> > > > > > there after and the texts that are available to us are> > survival> > > > > remains> > > > > > of all these tides turbulences and cultural changes. There is> > no> > > > > point> > > > > > in denying this fact out of national pride or religious> > > > > fundamentalism.> > > > > > Being sacred texts Vedas, Upanishads, and Epics might have> > > > withstood> > > > > > these modifications to a large extend, and the inner thread of> > > > > knowledge> > > > > > possibly we could locate in them should point to the original> > > > > knowledge> > > > > > as practiced and perceived in far ancient past.> > > > > >> > > > > > Period of Valmiki Ramayana> > > > > >> > > > > > As evident from the numerous references to Jain and Buddha> > > > > religions, it> > > > > > is evident that the current version of Ramayana was written> > > > around> > > > > AD> > > > > > 2nd century in the Sunga period who were Brahmanic kings, and> > > > > revived> > > > > > and rewritten many ancient texts. These Brahmanic kings and> > their> > > > > > supporters corrupted much of the ancient knowledge, and> > injected> > > > the> > > > > > religious fundamentalism and brahmanic false caste pride to> > most> > > > of> > > > > the> > > > > > texts. The available version of Ramayana is also an example of> > > > the> > > > > same.> > > > > > Thus while dealing with the `vedic astrology' depicted in> > > > > > Valmiki Ramayana, and the references there upon, we shouldn't> > > > forget> > > > > > the fact that we are dealing with `Vedic astrology' existed as> > > > > > on AD 2nd century. Ofcourse well evident from many other> > texts by> > > > > this> > > > > > time Non-vedic Nirayana astrology has flourished and has> > covered> > > > > good> > > > > > grounds, but it seems that `vedic astrology' was in a state of> > > > > > still to be systematized. It is also possible, that this is a> > > > wrong> > > > > > conclusion. We might have lost the true understanding of> > `vedic> > > > > > astrology' in the course, since people started giving more> > > > > > importance to the Nirayana astrology which depended more on> > fixed> > > > > Signs> > > > > > than on the stellar astrology proposed by the vedic system.> > > > > >> > > > > > Vedic Astrology> > > > > >> > > > > > Nirayana non-vedic astrology was a child of `Agama' or> > > > > > `Tantric' tradition while Sidereal vedic astrology was a child> > > > > > of `Nigama' or `Vedic' tradition. Initially the vedic> > > > > > system depended more on fixed unequal stellar divisions of the> > > > lunar> > > > > > path (28 Nakshatras) and later modified the system> > considering the> > > > > > ecliptic redefining the Nakshatras as equal divisions of the> > > > zodiac> > > > > (27> > > > > > Nakshatras). The tropical zodiac was given maximum importance> > > > > especially> > > > > > related to calendar calculation and determination of> > auspicious> > > > > days for> > > > > > festivals and agriculture. Thus vedic astrology was a mixture> > of> > > > > > Tropical astrology and fixed stellar divisions of ecliptic by> > the> > > > > period> > > > > > of Valmiki Ramayana of 2nd century AD. It should be remember> > > > that,> > > > > It is> > > > > > with this imperfect but vedic system of astrology that we deal> > > > with> > > > > > while we consider the system of astrology that deals within> > > > Valmiki> > > > > > Ramayana. Currently we have only very feeble idea of this> > system> > > > of> > > > > > astrology due to the lack of research in this field - and due> > to> > > > the> > > > > > extra interest in Nirayana astrology. The proponders of vedic> > > > know> > > > > how,> > > > > > exerted much effort in tricking people to believing that> > Nirayana> > > > > > astrology is vedic, but any true seeker of knowledge who> > studies> > > > the> > > > > > ancient literature can easily see that there is once scarce> > > > > reference to> > > > > > Nirayana astrology in the whole of vedic literature. What it> > > > > proposes is> > > > > > astrology based on fixed stellar divisions and Tropical> > zodiac.> > > > The> > > > > > astrology dealt with in Valmiki Ramayana is also an example of> > > > the> > > > > same.> > > > > > The following points should be kept in mind throughout this> > study.> > > > > >> > > > > > * The currently available Ramayana is a written around AD 2nd> > > > > century in> > > > > > the Sunga Period of Brahmanic kings> > > > > >> > > > > > * It is a text that tries to disgrace the Buddhist and Jain> > > > > religions.> > > > > > It also tries to show that the Dravidian and north eastern> > > > (Orissa> > > > > etc -> > > > > > Anga, Vanga, Kalinga) cultures are of inferior and uncultured> > > > forest> > > > > > dwelling people (N not even people, monkeys!)> > > > > >> > > > > > * It is an ancient story (the original story we don't know)> > > > totally> > > > > > corrupted by caste brahmins blinded by ego, pride, hatred> > towards> > > > > other> > > > > > cultures and religions and much more.> > > > > >> > > > > > * It is a text that gives maximum importance to outwardly> > > > scriptural> > > > > > ethics and ignorantly ignores the true ethics that comes from> > > > > within,> > > > > > the inner knowledge, that is part of realization or> > > > enlightenment.> > > > > It is> > > > > > NOT a text of much spiritual value.> > > > > >> > > > > > * It is a good literary text that should be considered as> > > > literature> > > > > > only, and is composed by mediocre brahmins of AD 2nd century> > > > (with> > > > > > minimum spiritual awareness only) and NOT a work of the great> > sage> > > > > > Valmiki to whom it is attributed to.> > > > > >> > > > > > * The above points, suggests that the text will help us to> > > > > understand> > > > > > the history and brahmanic caste fanatism around 2nd Century> > AD and> > > > > > expecting more than this lead us in wrong path. Attributing> > high> > > > > > spiritual value to the text or trying to understand the> > culture> > > > of> > > > > vedic> > > > > > past should be avoided while dealing with this text.> > > > > >> > > > > > * Even in this totally corrupted form the Valmiki Ramayana may> > > > > contain> > > > > > the glimpses and references to the ancient style of vedic> > > > astrology,> > > > > > since it discards anything non-vedic, and is fanatically in> > favor> > > > > of the> > > > > > vedic. Thus it is a wrong place to search for references to> > non-> > > > > vedic> > > > > > Nirayana astrology - if some such references are found in this> > > > text> > > > > that> > > > > > would a new interpolation after 2nd century AD or could be a> > > > > mistake of> > > > > > people who created this text only.> > > > > >> > > > > > Ramayana tries to discard and blame the religions like> > Buddhist> > > > and> > > > > Jain> > > > > > - which by the time of 2nd century AD, adopted and propagated> > > > > tantra and> > > > > > Nirayana astrology to a large extend. By this time Nirayana> > > > > astrology> > > > > > has even started spreading to south India, but Ramayana tries> > its> > > > > > maximum to stay away from this trend and tries to reflect the> > > > > > `vedic' tropical calendar system and stellar astrology only as> > > > > > far as possible. (There is only one sloka as an exception to> > > > this).> > > > > In> > > > > > short the newly created Ramayana of 2nd century is totally> > > > against> > > > > that> > > > > > is Non-vedic. But alas, even these brahmanic corrupters with> > vedic> > > > > > fanatism, and no inner spirituality, couldn't fully clear out> > > > > > several references that point to non-vedic practices from the> > old> > > > > > version of the text. Thus in essence we are searching the> > > > rudiments> > > > > of> > > > > > the past in a fully corrupted text, we are searching non-vedic> > > > > > attributes present in the original text, in a text fully> > > > corrupted> > > > > by> > > > > > some brahmins of 2nd century AD who neither understood non-> > vedic> > > > > > spiritual heights nor vedic spiritual heights, but were> > > > fanatically> > > > > in> > > > > > favor of the vedic culture.> > > > > >> > > > > > * Understanding the background of the text, we are going to> > try> > > > > only to> > > > > >> > > > > > b) pick out knowledge bits related to `vedic astrology'> > present> > > > > > around 2nd century AD from this text.> > > > > >> > > > > > a) pick out some valuable references to sages and tradition> > > > > prior to> > > > > > 2nd century AD.> > > > > >> > > > > > * While dealing with this text we will try to concentrate on> > the> > > > > > positive side only. If some one starts criticizing this text,> > > > there> > > > > is a> > > > > > thousand things to pick and stand against. Truly it is one of> > the> > > > > worse> > > > > > texts - totally contaminated by brahmanic castism and> > ignorance> > > > of> > > > > true> > > > > > knowledge within. But let us concentrate only on the positive> > > > side> > > > > and> > > > > > pick out things that we are interested in (i.e. astrology),> > and> > > > > things> > > > > > which are positive. Thus this negative tone I am using, you> > will> > > > not> > > > > > witness anymore in this book - because here we are after the> > > > > positive,> > > > > > creative and constructive.> > > > > >> > > > > > The aim of this book is to locate the same in Valmiki> > Ramayana.> > > > Let> > > > > us> > > > > > try our luck in achieving such a goal, and let the blessings> > of> > > > > Mahakala> > > > > > (Siva, the god of time) be with us. Let us baby step through> > this> > > > > study.> > > > > >> > > > > > The Sages - the Gurus> > > > > >> > > > > > Let us start our subject discussion by discussing the first> > sloka> > > > of> > > > > > Valmiki Ramayana itself.> > > > > >> > > > > > The revered Rishi Valmiki approached Rishi Narada, well> > versed in> > > > > words,> > > > > > who was indulged in meditation and self-study.> > > > > >> > > > > > - Valmiki Ramayana> > > > > >> > > > > > The names of two great sages mentioned in this sloka needs> > some> > > > > > introduction related to history of astrology. In Saunaka hora> > it> > > > is> > > > > said> > > > > > that Skanda imparted the knowledge of astrology to Brahma,> > Brahma> > > > to> > > > > > Daksha, Daksha to Mareechi. Being a wanderer astrological> > > > knowledge> > > > > was> > > > > > not initially imparted to Narada. Mareechi taught this> > knowledge> > > > to> > > > > > Saptarshis and from their own the knowledge flowed to others.> > The> > > > > > ancient Rishi Kulas were like universities, and the main sage> > > > held> > > > > the> > > > > > name of originator of that Kula. Thus Vasishta, Viswamitra,> > Garga,> > > > > > Parasara, Atri, Narada, Valmiki, Vyasa etc are the names of> > Rishi> > > > > > Paramparas (Ashram Traditions) which are like universities> > were> > > > the> > > > > > chancellor position would be held by one of the most> > knowledgeable> > > > > > individual of that tradition, and many would be taught. In> > India> > > > the> > > > > > same system we can see in the naming of Buddha, Sankaracharya> > and> > > > > so on.> > > > > > No Rishi is a single person, and in the tradition many might> > have> > > > > held> > > > > > that position.> > > > > >> > > > > > Even though Saunaka hora says that knowledge of astrology is> > not> > > > > > imparted to Narada, many later masters of this tradition> > attained> > > > > this> > > > > > knowledge. Many astrological texts such as Narada Sidhanta,> > Narada> > > > > > Samhita, Naradeeya Samhita etc are attributed to this> > tradition> > > > out> > > > > of> > > > > > which Narada Samhita and Naradeeya Samhita are available. Many> > > > > > astrological quotes of Narada is present with in Puranas as> > well.> > > > > >> > > > > > Valmiki holds supreme position in another tradition. Many> > texts> > > > > such as> > > > > > Valmiki Ramayana, Yoga Vasishta etc are attributed to him. The> > > > > texts by> > > > > > Valmiki are unique source of knowledge and texts like Yoga> > > > Vasishta> > > > > > holds supreme position in scientific presentation of spiritual> > > > > > knowledge. Even a scientist of relativity or quantum physics,> > > > > reading> > > > > > Yoga Vasishta will feel great reverence towards this great> > master> > > > > for> > > > > > his most scientific outlook and knowledge even though he> > lived in> > > > > that> > > > > > ancient past.> > > > > >> > > > > > Thus we are witnessing the meeting of two great masters;> > masters> > > > of> > > > > > meditation and self study. The whole conversation between them> > > > and> > > > > story> > > > > > of Ramayana told, will have much knowledge to impart> > concerning> > > > > > astrology prevailed in that period also for sure. We are> > dealing> > > > > with a> > > > > > text that has the mark of centuries imprinted in it, and a> > text> > > > > that has> > > > > > a great history and importance - let it be related to any> > subject> > > > > dealt> > > > > > within. Let us follow the meditative path and self study> > process> > > > as> > > > > > shown to us by this great masters in our search of `astrology> > > > dealt> > > > > > within Valmiki Ramayana' as well.> > > > > >> > > > > > Let us bow to the age old gurus of this tradition. Who are> > they?> > > > > Skanda> > > > > > Purana while describing the history and evolution of Ramayana> > > > > tells -> > > > > >> > > > > > It is remembered by age of texts that, the great souls such as> > > > > Sanaka> > > > > > etc are the sons of Brahma. All of them were great souls> > without> > > > > ego,> > > > > > and had transcended sex, and became enlightened ones. I will> > tell> > > > > their> > > > > > name - they are, Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana.> > > > > >> > > > > > - Skanda Purana> > > > > >> > > > > > These 4 great sages Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatana> > are> > > > > the> > > > > > gurus of this tradition. Remember that that is why the indian> > > > > culture is> > > > > > known as the `Sanatana culture' - the everlasting one. This is> > > > > > the culture envisaged by these four great sages. It is said> > that> > > > > prior> > > > > > to writing Bhashya for Brahmasutra Sankaracharya read the text> > > > > called> > > > > > `Sanaka Samhita' written by Sage Sanaka 18 times! How> > important> > > > > > that work would be. No wonder sage Valmiki who was a great> > sage> > > > of> > > > > the> > > > > > same lineage wrote - Yoga Vasishta. The most valuable text> > > > produced> > > > > by> > > > > > hindu tradition; a text that truly depicts the spiritual> > heights> > > > of> > > > > sage> > > > > > Valmiki; A text that can stand the test of time and supply a> > > > > thousand> > > > > > ideas - in past, present and future - i would say. I revere> > the> > > > text> > > > > > Yogavasishta much and it is the with that reverence I bow to> > the> > > > > > Sanakadi sages and to sage Valmiki who followed the same> > lineage.> > > > > These> > > > > > are the ancient gurus of this tradition of vedic astrology.> > > > Instead> > > > > of> > > > > > getting confused by the later interpolations and new acharyas> > with> > > > > > divergent ideas - fix your eyes on this root tradition and you> > > > will> > > > > not> > > > > > miss the true path of `vedic astrology'. As seekers of ancient> > > > > > indian astrology - it is the original stream we should value> > most.> > > > > >> > > > > > Ramayana and vedic astrology> > > > > >> > > > > > Ramayana describes Rama as "Veda Vedanga Tatwajcha" [One who> > > > > > knows Vedas, and Vedangas]. Vedas are classified in to four> > such> > > > > as -> > > > > > Rig, Yajur, Sama and Adharva. Astrology is said to be part of> > > > > Adharva> > > > > > veda. The Vedangas are 6 in number such as - Astrology> > (Jyotisha),> > > > > > Ethics (Kalpa), Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha),> > Grammar> > > > > > (Vyakarana) and Lyrics (Chanda). Thus the sloka indicates that> > > > > Valmiki> > > > > > Ramayana is a continuation of the Vedic culture, and the> > > > astrology> > > > > dealt> > > > > > within the same too would be in tune with that of Vedic> > > > knowledge.> > > > > Since> > > > > > Vedic culture gives more importance to Stellar astrology and> > > > > > determination of Muhurtas based on planetary positions, we> > have a> > > > > better> > > > > > chance to find the same in this book, rather than Nirayana> > > > > predictive> > > > > > astrology, which has more of a Tantric origin. But let us not> > > > > freeze our> > > > > > expectation, but rather with an open mind approach the> > subject,> > > > > > accepting every bit of knowledge we could acquire in the> > course.> > > > > Due to> > > > > > mix of knowledge from ancient past to almost 9th contrary AD> > into> > > > > this> > > > > > book, we are sure to find many things in this unique text,> > which> > > > we> > > > > may> > > > > > not be able to find anywhere else. The resource is valuable,> > and> > > > > thus> > > > > > that much careful should be our approach as well.> > > > > >> > > > > > (To be continued ……..)> > > > > >> > > > > > Love,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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