Guest guest Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Shri Sreenadhji, Namaskar! Thanks for referring me to your views about Kularnava Tantra. Your comments in the end, " Kaulji (Avtar Krishen Kaul) at times blindly argues that Tantra contains no astrology without ever studying them with an inquisitive perspective...I think as he discards the fixed nakshatra chakra proposed by the Vedas, his beliefs do not tally even with the Vedic tradition " . A couple of points have to be mulled over: 1. Acharya Abhinavgupta was one of the greatest yogis of India. He was the greatest yogi Kashmir has ever produced till date. In his Tantraloka, a work recognized and respected the world over, he has talked of Mesha etc. rashis in terms of the six seasons. He has made it very clear that Mina and Mesha rashis are the months of Vasanta and so on. He has also said that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year and Mesha Sankranti when day and night are equal. This will be evident from my BVB6.doc. As such, you can say that real yogis have recommended nay even practiced and followed a so called Tropical zodiac for yogic practices as well as fairs and festivals and muhurtas, as against the so called nirayana rashis/zodiac that the so called " Vedic astrologers " including you are propagating! 2. I do not know what you mean by " discarding the fixed nakshatra chakra " . The nakshatra-chakra has been existing from the dawn of the creation and cannot be discarded by anybody howsoever great a yogi or tantric he/she maybe -- leave alone puny chaps like me! The confusion about " fixed " and " moving " Nakshatras has been created by " Vedic astrologers " and not by astronomy or Vedic Rishis or yogis and the real tantriks! Nakshatras are " made of " stars. Milky Ways (clusters of Galaxies) are nothing but clusters of stars. Some of these are billions of light years away from us. Astronomers tell us that the farthest galaxies are moving away from as at the maximum speed! I do not, therefore, understand as to what you mean by " fixed stars " . The fact of the matter is that Stars have two types of motion. Proper and Mean. Thus they are not fixed at all! They are fixed only " comparatively " since their Proper Motion is only with respect to other stars, in our case the sun. The problem arises only when you start measuring the longitudes of these stars! We must not forget that " sun is also a star " and technically, that also must be " fixed " then. But then no astrologer treats it as " fixed " . In any case, you must have a zero to start from! For these good for nothing " Vedic astrologers " that zero is a blind man's buff! In your case (actually in the case of Shri Chandra Hari, who talks of " Muladhara ayanamsha " ) the zero is Mula nakshatra, but then he takes as ayanamsha the Sayana longitude of Mula nakshatra minus 240 degrees! Similarly, in the case of Lahiri, it should have been Chitra Star, but then he has advised us to subtract 180 degrees from the sayana longitude of that star in 285 AD to arrive at his Ayanamsha! That way, therefore, only Revati paksha could be given some credit since they take the Revati star as the starting point, but then they also take the sayana longitude of that star and then subtract that longitude from that (Revati) star to make it as zero! In other words, whichever way you go, you start the rashichakra by manipulating the so called sayana longitudes of some or the other star! To crown it with further " beauty " (actually ugliness!) of the so called nirayana system, Ashvini star is away by ten degrees from the start of Ashvini nakshatra, whatever ayanamsha you follow, when actually everybody talks of " Mesharamba-bindu and Ashvini nakhatra " as the starting points of the zodiac! It is therefore clear that no nirayanawala knows himself as to wherefrom his " fixed " zodiac should be " fixed " , but then they are taking recourse to mathematical jargon and technical abracadabra to hide their own misconceptions about the so called Rashichakra, the nirayana one! The Vedic Rishis had no such problems! For them the nakshatra-chakra started from that nakshatra where the Vernal Equinox was falling e.g., Krittikas during the time of Yajur Veda and the Vedanga Jyotisha! It should thus start from Purvabhadra these days! Modern astronomers are also following a similar system! The zero of the individual stars (which make nakshatra divisions) is the Vernal Equinox itself! Since the Vernal Equinox keeps on " precessing " i.e. moving, the measurement undergoes a change. That is why these useless jyotishis call such measurements as moving zodiacs, when actually there is nothing like moving and fixed zodiac/rashichakra, since the zodiac is just one and it cannot keep on moving and be static simultaneously! 3. Mesha etc. Rashis have nothing to do with nakshatras -- this has been amply demonstrated by me through several posts! When you talk of clubbing the two, you do not know yourself as to what you are talking about since this trend started only from Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta and not from any dialogue between Shiva and Parvati of any Tantra work! 4. Regarding " jyotisha " (by which you mean predictive gimmicks!) being a part of the Tantra/Yoga shastra all I can say is that if a yogi needs crutches like horoscope to know his future, he is a fatalist and not a yogi at all! He/she is just a charlatan who poses to be a yogi! 5. Similarly, if a tanktrik needs navamsha, dwadashamsha and what not aids to perform tantra kriya he/she is a big fraud and needs to be hauled for misleading the gullible public In fact, day in and day out, we are seeing the pranks of such tantriks on almost every channel these days! God only can save India from such tantriks and yogis! 6. You say Tantra shastra is a precursor to the Vedas. The Kularnava Tantra that you are talking about is not very old in itself, though it is supposed to be a dialogue between Shiva and Parvati. In fact, all the Tantra shastras are dialogues between Shiva and His consort, Parvati, but it appears that those dialogues have not taken place in a very distant past, at least not before the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha, which is a work compiled in Kashmir in the thirteenth century BCE! 7. Regarding Tantra/yoga shastras being superior to the Vedas, I wonder whether you have gone through the " Shiva Mahimna Stotra " of Pushpadanta yakshya! There is a beautiful sholka " Trayee sankhyam yogah pashupati matam vaishanavam iti, Prabhinne prasthane param idam adah pathya iti chai Rucheenam vaichitryad riju kutil nana patha jusham Nrinam eko gmyas tvam asi payasam arnava iva " I am sure you will be able to decipher its meaning yourself! 8. In my childhood, we used to recite Acharya Bhinavagupta's " Vyapta-Charachara " stotra every day in Kashmir. One of its sholkas is " ...tvan-mayam etad ashesham idaneem Bhati mama tvad anugraha shaktya, tvam cha mahesha sadaiv mamatma Svatama mayam mama tena samastam Svatmani veshi gate tvayi nathe Tena na samsriti bheeti kathasti, satsvapi durdhar dukh vimoh Tras viayuishu karma ganeshu. " Do you think with such a yogic experience of being one with Shiva and being thus bereft of any worldly miseries, Acharya Abhinavgupta would have taken recourse to deciphering his horoscope that also on the basis of the most useless and fundamentally incorrect Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha which has been praised to the skies by Varahamihira the charlatan? I am afraid you are just misquoting Yoga and tantra shastras only to prove your point! My dear Sreenadhji, you are a very erudite scholar of Tantra and Yogashastras! I have a great deal of respect for you. I have also just one humble request. Instead of wasting your scholarship and time in trying to prove the existence of a so called nirayana rashichakra as per the tantra and yoga shaastras, just try to understand the real problem! There are no Rashis either in the Vedas or in the Patanjala Yoga Sutra! So there is no question of there being so called nirayana rashis or sayana rashis in either tantra shastra or Yoga shastra, much less the Vedas! Please therefore, discard all these myriad rashichakras once for all and instead of advocating baseless predictive gimmicks, which have not been advocated by any yogi or tantrik or Rishi, please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and muhurtas which have been derailed by these " Vedic astrologers " ! With regards, Avtar Krishen Kaul On Behalf Of Sreenadh Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:36 PM HinduCalendar Subject:Astrology in Kularnava Tantra Dear Kaul ji, Hope you will have look at the document. I have some comments for you in the document. The file is not anything serious, just the result of yesterday's reading - 2 hrs work. Love, Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Dear Kaul ji, Acharya Abhinavgupta: I am yet to read or study his works. ==> > what you mean by " fixed stars " . <== Lol. You are very clever at twisting the points - I was speaking about " fixed Nakshatra Chakra " ; in the original sense. As you know well, the word " Nakshatra " is used in Vedas ONLY to refer to the 27 r 28 divisions in vedas and not to refer to stars (Taras). You may need to do a re-reading. [We are always on the learners or researchers perspective and a times it seems that you are on a masters or imposers perspective - from where this touch of high ego comes to your mails Kaul ji; I wonder! Can't we make our words a bit softer and humbler? Know that our knowledge and capabilities are always limited] ==> > " Vedic astrologers " including you are propagating <== Me Vedic-astrologer?! May be you could call me an " Astrologer " or even a " Non-Vedic astrologer " ! But No, Not " Vedic " ?! Please don't insult me! As you know I love Non-Vedas than the Vedas, if they are what you are trying to propagate! lollzzzz....... Of course I have a regard for Veda; but of course No, not in your perspective! As far as " Vedic Astrology " is concerned, which mainly refers to " Tropical astrology + Nakshtra Chakra " as I know it, I am not much interested currently; Because as of now I am more interested in " Nirayaya Astrology " and organizing the material available in it. Yes of course I will turn my interest to and will try to " organize the material available on Nakshtra Chakra and Tropical astrology " as depicted in Vedas and puranas - once this work is over at least to an extend. It is a long term task - and what ever you may say; I know what I need to do. Please don't ignorantly advice stupidities such as - ==> > please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and > muhurtas which have been derailed by these " Vedic astrologers " <== Hindu Fasts : Do you thinks there exists a hell or heaven to reward the bank deposit of Punya you make?! [Of course they have a connection with health; but I don't think you grasp that idea till now] (Hindu)Festivals: Festivals are good whether it is Hindu, Christian, Muslim or Jain or what ever on earth. That is the period to celebrate and rejoice. Actually celebrating festivals like a bulb, which turns on when switch on, it is better to celeberate the joy within! The Festival day come and you start celebrating, even if the joy is not with in - how on earth can we do it?! So I am better in support of the Festivals that come from within. I could see that actually you are not even pointing to this - but to " celebrating Festivals on day proposed by (Hindu!) Vedas " (ascribing the word 'Hindu' to Vedas even degenerate the Vedas; Vedas do not and should not have any religious connotaion; the religion of vedas is the religion of the enlightened individual, NOT of the society. But I don't think you could grasp this statement). If there is no predictive astrology what the hell you think is the importance of 'Proper day' and 'Proper Muhurta'? Your argument of " celebrating festivals on proper Day/Muhurta " loss all its significance in the absence of astrology. Instead of foolishly arguing much - understand this fact. If you discard astrology - be an intelligenet individual and discard all this stupid arguments in support of fasts, festivals etc in " Proper day/muhurta " . Or accept astrology whether it be " Tropical/Sayana/Nirayana " or what ever it is. Muhurtas: Hay man! What do you think a Muhurta is? What is it's relevance in the absence of astrology? Why should we Fast or act out the Festivals at all? Why it should be important? I don't think a simple man need Fast, or Festival or Muhurta to lead his simple life. What is your relevant lost ideas about the " (Hindu! - stupid!) Vedas, Fasts and Festivals " ? Rasi charka: As you mentioned, I am in favor of considering starting point of Mesha, and Aswini Nakshatra 120 degree away from Moola star; yes, the " Mooladhara Chakra " of C.hari you refers to. Instead of brushing aside the works of C.hari as " mathematical jargon " (which is another way of saying - " I don't understand a bit of it " ! or that " I don't have the intellectual acumen to understand it! " ), please try to understand it. If you don't agree to it, try to answer the same using the same mathematical language to C.Hari; instead of resorting to pedestrian language and approach as Petrecia ji once rightly judged. The mail is becoming too long - I will respond to some of the other points mentioned in your post in the next mail. But before that one very important point: Note it. " Instead of wasting your time to recast people your absurd way of thinking, by fighting and arguing with them, do some creating work of putting your understanding systematically in paper; a single book " Hope you get the point, Love, Sreenadh , " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote: > > Shri Sreenadhji, > Namaskar! > > Thanks for referring me to your views about Kularnava Tantra. > > Your comments in the end, " Kaulji (Avtar Krishen Kaul) at times blindly > argues that Tantra contains no astrology without ever studying them with an > inquisitive perspective...I think as he discards the fixed nakshatra chakra > proposed by the Vedas, his beliefs do not tally even with the Vedic > tradition " . > > A couple of points have to be mulled over: > 1. Acharya Abhinavgupta was one of the greatest yogis of India. He was the > greatest yogi Kashmir has ever produced till date. In his Tantraloka, a > work recognized and respected the world over, he has talked of Mesha etc. > rashis in terms of the six seasons. He has made it very clear that Mina and > Mesha rashis are the months of Vasanta and so on. He has also said that > Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year and Mesha Sankranti when day > and night are equal. This will be evident from my BVB6.doc. As such, you > can say that real yogis have recommended nay even practiced and followed a > so called Tropical zodiac for yogic practices as well as fairs and festivals > and muhurtas, as against the so called nirayana rashis/zodiac that the so > called " Vedic astrologers " including you are propagating! > > 2. I do not know what you mean by " discarding the fixed nakshatra chakra " . > The nakshatra-chakra has been existing from the dawn of the creation and > cannot be discarded by anybody howsoever great a yogi or tantric he/she > maybe -- leave alone puny chaps like me! The confusion about " fixed " and > " moving " Nakshatras has been created by " Vedic astrologers " and not by > astronomy or Vedic Rishis or yogis and the real tantriks! > > Nakshatras are " made of " stars. Milky Ways (clusters of Galaxies) are > nothing but clusters of stars. Some of these are billions of light years > away from us. Astronomers tell us that the farthest galaxies are moving > away from as at the maximum speed! I do not, therefore, understand as to > what you mean by " fixed stars " . > > The fact of the matter is that Stars have two types of motion. Proper and > Mean. Thus they are not fixed at all! They are fixed only " comparatively " > since their Proper Motion is only with respect to other stars, in our case > the sun. The problem arises only when you start measuring the longitudes of > these stars! We must not forget that " sun is also a star " and technically, > that also must be " fixed " then. But then no astrologer treats it as > " fixed " . > > In any case, you must have a zero to start from! For these good for > nothing " Vedic astrologers " that zero is a blind man's buff! In your case > (actually in the case of Shri Chandra Hari, who talks of " Muladhara > ayanamsha " ) the zero is Mula nakshatra, but then he takes as ayanamsha the > Sayana longitude of Mula nakshatra minus 240 degrees! Similarly, in the > case of Lahiri, it should have been Chitra Star, but then he has advised us > to subtract 180 degrees from the sayana longitude of that star in 285 AD to > arrive at his Ayanamsha! That way, therefore, only Revati paksha could be > given some credit since they take the Revati star as the starting point, but > then they also take the sayana longitude of that star and then subtract that > longitude from that (Revati) star to make it as zero! > In other words, whichever way you go, you start the rashichakra by > manipulating the so called sayana longitudes of some or the other star! To > crown it with further " beauty " (actually ugliness!) of the so called > nirayana system, Ashvini star is away by ten degrees from the start of > Ashvini nakshatra, whatever ayanamsha you follow, when actually everybody > talks of " Mesharamba-bindu and Ashvini nakhatra " as the starting points of > the zodiac! > It is therefore clear that no nirayanawala knows himself as to wherefrom his > " fixed " zodiac should be " fixed " , but then they are taking recourse to > mathematical jargon and technical abracadabra to hide their own > misconceptions about the so called Rashichakra, the nirayana one! > > The Vedic Rishis had no such problems! For them the nakshatra- chakra > started from that nakshatra where the Vernal Equinox was falling e.g., > Krittikas during the time of Yajur Veda and the Vedanga Jyotisha! It should > thus start from Purvabhadra these days! > > Modern astronomers are also following a similar system! The zero of the > individual stars (which make nakshatra divisions) is the Vernal Equinox > itself! Since the Vernal Equinox keeps on " precessing " i.e. moving, the > measurement undergoes a change. That is why these useless jyotishis call > such measurements as moving zodiacs, when actually there is nothing like > moving and fixed zodiac/rashichakra, since the zodiac is just one and it > cannot keep on moving and be static simultaneously! > > 3. Mesha etc. Rashis have nothing to do with nakshatras -- this has been > amply demonstrated by me through several posts! When you talk of clubbing > the two, you do not know yourself as to what you are talking about since > this trend started only from Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta and not from > any dialogue between Shiva and Parvati of any Tantra work! > > 4. Regarding " jyotisha " (by which you mean predictive gimmicks!) being a > part of the Tantra/Yoga shastra all I can say is that if a yogi needs > crutches like horoscope to know his future, he is a fatalist and not a yogi > at all! He/she is just a charlatan who poses to be a yogi! > > 5. Similarly, if a tanktrik needs navamsha, dwadashamsha and what not aids > to perform tantra kriya he/she is a big fraud and needs to be hauled for > misleading the gullible public In fact, day in and day out, we are seeing > the pranks of such tantriks on almost every channel these days! God only > can save India from such tantriks and yogis! > > 6. You say Tantra shastra is a precursor to the Vedas. The Kularnava > Tantra that you are talking about is not very old in itself, though it is > supposed to be a dialogue between Shiva and Parvati. In fact, all the Tantra > shastras are dialogues between Shiva and His consort, Parvati, but it > appears that those dialogues have not taken place in a very distant past, > at least not before the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha, which is a work > compiled in Kashmir in the thirteenth century BCE! > > 7. Regarding Tantra/yoga shastras being superior to the Vedas, I wonder > whether you have gone through the " Shiva Mahimna Stotra " of Pushpadanta > yakshya! There is a beautiful sholka > " Trayee sankhyam yogah pashupati matam vaishanavam iti, > Prabhinne prasthane param idam adah pathya iti chai > Rucheenam vaichitryad riju kutil nana patha jusham > Nrinam eko gmyas tvam asi payasam arnava iva " > > I am sure you will be able to decipher its meaning yourself! > > 8. In my childhood, we used to recite Acharya Bhinavagupta's > " Vyapta-Charachara " stotra every day in Kashmir. One of its sholkas is > " ...tvan-mayam etad ashesham idaneem > Bhati mama tvad anugraha shaktya, > tvam cha mahesha sadaiv mamatma > Svatama mayam mama tena samastam > Svatmani veshi gate tvayi nathe > Tena na samsriti bheeti kathasti, > satsvapi durdhar dukh vimoh > Tras viayuishu karma ganeshu. " > Do you think with such a yogic experience of being one with Shiva and being > thus bereft of any worldly miseries, Acharya Abhinavgupta would have taken > recourse to deciphering his horoscope that also on the basis of the most > useless and fundamentally incorrect Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha which > has been praised to the skies by Varahamihira the charlatan? I am afraid > you are just misquoting Yoga and tantra shastras only to prove your point! > My dear Sreenadhji, you are a very erudite scholar of Tantra and > Yogashastras! I have a great deal of respect for you. I have also just one > humble request. Instead of wasting your scholarship and time in trying to > prove the existence of a so called nirayana rashichakra as per the tantra > and yoga shaastras, just try to understand the real problem! There are no > Rashis either in the Vedas or in the Patanjala Yoga Sutra! So there is no > question of there being so called nirayana rashis or sayana rashis in either > tantra shastra or Yoga shastra, much less the Vedas! Please therefore, > discard all these myriad rashichakras once for all and instead of advocating > baseless predictive gimmicks, which have not been advocated by any yogi or > tantrik or Rishi, please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and > muhurtas which have been derailed by these " Vedic astrologers " ! > With regards, > > Avtar Krishen Kaul > > > On Behalf Of Sreenadh > Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:36 PM > HinduCalendar > Subject:Astrology in Kularnava Tantra > > Dear Kaul ji, > Hope you will have look at the document. I have some comments for > you in the document. The file is not anything serious, just the result > of yesterday's reading - 2 hrs work. > Love, > Sreenadh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 dear sreenadhji, namaskar Entirely new subject not connected with the arguments that is on now. How to identify the family deity (Kula theivam (in Tamil)) by analysing the 5th house from lagna (or rasi ?) tvramagopalSreenadh <sreesog wrote: Dear Kaul ji,Acharya Abhinavgupta: I am yet to read or study his works.==>> what you mean by "fixed stars".<==Lol. You are very clever at twisting the points - I was speaking about "fixed Nakshatra Chakra"; in the original sense. As you know well, the word "Nakshatra" is used in Vedas ONLY to refer to the 27 r 28 divisions in vedas and not to refer to stars (Taras). You may need to do a re-reading. [We are always on the learners or researchers perspective and a times it seems that you are on a masters or imposers perspective - from where this touch of high ego comes to your mails Kaul ji; I wonder! Can't we make our words a bit softer and humbler? Know that our knowledge and capabilities are always limited] ==>> "Vedic astrologers" including you are propagating<==Me Vedic-astrologer?! May be you could call me an "Astrologer" or even a "Non-Vedic astrologer"! But No, Not "Vedic"?! Please don't insult me! As you know I love Non-Vedas than the Vedas, if they are what you are trying to propagate! lollzzzz....... Of course I have a regard for Veda; but of course No, not in your perspective! As far as "Vedic Astrology" is concerned, which mainly refers to "Tropical astrology + Nakshtra Chakra" as I know it, I am not much interested currently; Because as of now I am more interested in "Nirayaya Astrology" and organizing the material available in it. Yes of course I will turn my interest to and will try to "organize the material available on Nakshtra Chakra and Tropical astrology" as depicted in Vedas and puranas - once this work is over at least to an extend. It is a long term task - and what ever you may say; I know what I need to do. Please don't ignorantly advice stupidities such as -==>> please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and> muhurtas which have been derailed by these "Vedic astrologers"<== Hindu Fasts : Do you thinks there exists a hell or heaven to reward the bank deposit of Punya you make?! [Of course they have a connection with health; but I don't think you grasp that idea till now](Hindu)Festivals: Festivals are good whether it is Hindu, Christian, Muslim or Jain or what ever on earth. That is the period to celebrate and rejoice. Actually celebrating festivals like a bulb, which turns on when switch on, it is better to celeberate the joy within! The Festival day come and you start celebrating, even if the joy is not with in - how on earth can we do it?! So I am better in support of the Festivals that come from within. I could see that actually you are not even pointing to this - but to "celebrating Festivals on day proposed by (Hindu!) Vedas" (ascribing the word 'Hindu' to Vedas even degenerate the Vedas; Vedas do not and should not have any religious connotaion; the religion of vedas is the religion of the enlightened individual, NOT of the society. But I don't think you could grasp this statement). If there is no predictive astrology what the hell you think is the importance of 'Proper day' and 'Proper Muhurta'? Your argument of "celebrating festivals on proper Day/Muhurta" loss all its significance in the absence of astrology. Instead of foolishly arguing much - understand this fact. If you discard astrology - be an intelligenet individual and discard all this stupid arguments in support of fasts, festivals etc in "Proper day/muhurta". Or accept astrology whether it be "Tropical/Sayana/Nirayana" or what ever it is. Muhurtas: Hay man! What do you think a Muhurta is? What is it's relevance in the absence of astrology? Why should we Fast or act out the Festivals at all? Why it should be important? I don't think a simple man need Fast, or Festival or Muhurta to lead his simple life. What is your relevant lost ideas about the "(Hindu! - stupid!) Vedas, Fasts and Festivals"?Rasi charka: As you mentioned, I am in favor of considering starting point of Mesha, and Aswini Nakshatra 120 degree away from Moola star; yes, the "Mooladhara Chakra" of C.hari you refers to. Instead of brushing aside the works of C.hari as "mathematical jargon" (which is another way of saying - "I don't understand a bit of it"! or that "I don't have the intellectual acumen to understand it!"), please try to understand it. If you don't agree to it, try to answer the same using the same mathematical language to C.Hari; instead of resorting to pedestrian language and approach as Petrecia ji once rightly judged. The mail is becoming too long - I will respond to some of the other points mentioned in your post in the next mail. But before that one very important point: Note it."Instead of wasting your time to recast people your absurd way of thinking, by fighting and arguing with them, do some creating work of putting your understanding systematically in paper; a single book"Hope you get the point, ;)Love,Sreenadh , "jyotirved" <jyotirved wrote:>> Shri Sreenadhji,> Namaskar!> > Thanks for referring me to your views about Kularnava Tantra.> > Your comments in the end, "Kaulji (Avtar Krishen Kaul) at times blindly> argues that Tantra contains no astrology without ever studying them with an> inquisitive perspective...I think as he discards the fixed nakshatra chakra> proposed by the Vedas, his beliefs do not tally even with the Vedic> tradition".> > A couple of points have to be mulled over:> 1. Acharya Abhinavgupta was one of the greatest yogis of India. He was the> greatest yogi Kashmir has ever produced till date. In his Tantraloka, a> work recognized and respected the world over, he has talked of Mesha etc.> rashis in terms of the six seasons. He has made it very clear that Mina and> Mesha rashis are the months of Vasanta and so on. He has also said that> Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year and Mesha Sankranti when day> and night are equal. This will be evident from my BVB6.doc. As such, you> can say that real yogis have recommended nay even practiced and followed a> so called Tropical zodiac for yogic practices as well as fairs and festivals> and muhurtas, as against the so called nirayana rashis/zodiac that the so> called "Vedic astrologers" including you are propagating!> > 2. I do not know what you mean by "discarding the fixed nakshatra chakra".> The nakshatra-chakra has been existing from the dawn of the creation and> cannot be discarded by anybody howsoever great a yogi or tantric he/she> maybe -- leave alone puny chaps like me! The confusion about "fixed" and> "moving" Nakshatras has been created by "Vedic astrologers" and not by> astronomy or Vedic Rishis or yogis and the real tantriks!> > Nakshatras are "made of" stars. Milky Ways (clusters of Galaxies) are> nothing but clusters of stars. Some of these are billions of light years> away from us. Astronomers tell us that the farthest galaxies are moving> away from as at the maximum speed! I do not, therefore, understand as to> what you mean by "fixed stars".> > The fact of the matter is that Stars have two types of motion. Proper and> Mean. Thus they are not fixed at all! They are fixed only "comparatively"> since their Proper Motion is only with respect to other stars, in our case> the sun. The problem arises only when you start measuring the longitudes of> these stars! We must not forget that "sun is also a star" and technically,> that also must be "fixed" then. But then no astrologer treats it as> "fixed". > > In any case, you must have a zero to start from! For these good for> nothing "Vedic astrologers" that zero is a blind man's buff! In your case> (actually in the case of Shri Chandra Hari, who talks of "Muladhara> ayanamsha") the zero is Mula nakshatra, but then he takes as ayanamsha the> Sayana longitude of Mula nakshatra minus 240 degrees! Similarly, in the> case of Lahiri, it should have been Chitra Star, but then he has advised us> to subtract 180 degrees from the sayana longitude of that star in 285 AD to> arrive at his Ayanamsha! That way, therefore, only Revati paksha could be> given some credit since they take the Revati star as the starting point, but> then they also take the sayana longitude of that star and then subtract that> longitude from that (Revati) star to make it as zero!> In other words, whichever way you go, you start the rashichakra by> manipulating the so called sayana longitudes of some or the other star! To> crown it with further "beauty" (actually ugliness!) of the so called> nirayana system, Ashvini star is away by ten degrees from the start of> Ashvini nakshatra, whatever ayanamsha you follow, when actually everybody> talks of "Mesharamba-bindu and Ashvini nakhatra" as the starting points of> the zodiac!> It is therefore clear that no nirayanawala knows himself as to wherefrom his> "fixed" zodiac should be "fixed", but then they are taking recourse to> mathematical jargon and technical abracadabra to hide their own> misconceptions about the so called Rashichakra, the nirayana one!> > The Vedic Rishis had no such problems! For them the nakshatra-chakra> started from that nakshatra where the Vernal Equinox was falling e.g.,> Krittikas during the time of Yajur Veda and the Vedanga Jyotisha! It should> thus start from Purvabhadra these days!> > Modern astronomers are also following a similar system! The zero of the> individual stars (which make nakshatra divisions) is the Vernal Equinox> itself! Since the Vernal Equinox keeps on "precessing" i.e. moving, the> measurement undergoes a change. That is why these useless jyotishis call> such measurements as moving zodiacs, when actually there is nothing like> moving and fixed zodiac/rashichakra, since the zodiac is just one and it> cannot keep on moving and be static simultaneously!> > 3. Mesha etc. Rashis have nothing to do with nakshatras -- this has been> amply demonstrated by me through several posts! When you talk of clubbing> the two, you do not know yourself as to what you are talking about since> this trend started only from Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta and not from> any dialogue between Shiva and Parvati of any Tantra work!> > 4. Regarding "jyotisha" (by which you mean predictive gimmicks!) being a> part of the Tantra/Yoga shastra all I can say is that if a yogi needs> crutches like horoscope to know his future, he is a fatalist and not a yogi> at all! He/she is just a charlatan who poses to be a yogi! > > 5. Similarly, if a tanktrik needs navamsha, dwadashamsha and what not aids> to perform tantra kriya he/she is a big fraud and needs to be hauled for> misleading the gullible public In fact, day in and day out, we are seeing> the pranks of such tantriks on almost every channel these days! God only> can save India from such tantriks and yogis!> > 6. You say Tantra shastra is a precursor to the Vedas. The Kularnava> Tantra that you are talking about is not very old in itself, though it is> supposed to be a dialogue between Shiva and Parvati. In fact, all the Tantra> shastras are dialogues between Shiva and His consort, Parvati, but it> appears that those dialogues have not taken place in a very distant past,> at least not before the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha, which is a work> compiled in Kashmir in the thirteenth century BCE!> > 7. Regarding Tantra/yoga shastras being superior to the Vedas, I wonder> whether you have gone through the "Shiva Mahimna Stotra" of Pushpadanta> yakshya! There is a beautiful sholka> "Trayee sankhyam yogah pashupati matam vaishanavam iti, > Prabhinne prasthane param idam adah pathya iti chai> Rucheenam vaichitryad riju kutil nana patha jusham> Nrinam eko gmyas tvam asi payasam arnava iva"> > I am sure you will be able to decipher its meaning yourself!> > 8. In my childhood, we used to recite Acharya Bhinavagupta's> "Vyapta-Charachara" stotra every day in Kashmir. One of its sholkas is> "...tvan-mayam etad ashesham idaneem> Bhati mama tvad anugraha shaktya, > tvam cha mahesha sadaiv mamatma> Svatama mayam mama tena samastam> Svatmani veshi gate tvayi nathe > Tena na samsriti bheeti kathasti, > satsvapi durdhar dukh vimoh > Tras viayuishu karma ganeshu."> Do you think with such a yogic experience of being one with Shiva and being> thus bereft of any worldly miseries, Acharya Abhinavgupta would have taken> recourse to deciphering his horoscope that also on the basis of the most> useless and fundamentally incorrect Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha which> has been praised to the skies by Varahamihira the charlatan? I am afraid> you are just misquoting Yoga and tantra shastras only to prove your point!> My dear Sreenadhji, you are a very erudite scholar of Tantra and> Yogashastras! I have a great deal of respect for you. I have also just one> humble request. Instead of wasting your scholarship and time in trying to> prove the existence of a so called nirayana rashichakra as per the tantra> and yoga shaastras, just try to understand the real problem! There are no> Rashis either in the Vedas or in the Patanjala Yoga Sutra! So there is no> question of there being so called nirayana rashis or sayana rashis in either> tantra shastra or Yoga shastra, much less the Vedas! Please therefore,> discard all these myriad rashichakras once for all and instead of advocating> baseless predictive gimmicks, which have not been advocated by any yogi or> tantrik or Rishi, please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and> muhurtas which have been derailed by these "Vedic astrologers"!> With regards,> > Avtar Krishen Kaul> > > On Behalf Of Sreenadh> Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:36 PM> HinduCalendar > Subject:Astrology in Kularnava Tantra> > Dear Kaul ji,> Hope you will have look at the document. I have some comments for> you in the document. The file is not anything serious, just the result> of yesterday's reading - 2 hrs work. > Love,> Sreenadh> T.V.Ramagopal Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Dear Kaul ji, Let us address some of your other arguments - ==> > The Vedic Rishis had no such problems! For them the nakshatra- > chakra started from that nakshatra where the Vernal Equinox was > falling e.g., Krittikas during the time of Yajur Veda and the > Vedanga Jyotisha! <== Ok. So you agree that at that time Vernal equinox was in Krittika nakshatra division and that is why they started the Nakshatra list from there. Thus it clearly means that - * The Nakshtra list starting from Aswini NEVER started from Vernal equinox as you argue and propose now a days!! (Your current argument in favor of Tropical Zodiac was that both Mesha and Aswini Nakshatra start from Vernal equinox; the same you proposed/used (?) in your Panchangas!). The above VEDIC reference clearly indicate that the Vedic sages never did the same! They know what they were talking about; and considered the Seasonal months as a separate entity from Fixed Nakshatra Chakra! It is true that, possibly (we can't be sure) since the vernal equinox was in Krittika Nakshatra they started counting the Nakshatra list from Krittika onwards. If we follow the same trend (assuming that the above statement was based on vernal equinox - but we can't be sure about the same), today counting of Nakshatra list should start from Uttara Bhadrapada; if we are following the Vedic style. But who is bothered about the Vedic style at all! Here we are discussing mostly about Non-Vedic astrology as practiced from ages and is least bothered about the astrology in Vedas! So what is the use of your erronious arguments in this context, I wonder! ==> > Ashvini star is away by ten degrees from the start of > Ashvini nakshatra, <== So what?! Thus you agree that both Aswini star (it should be a group of stars, if not you are speaking about the Yoga Tara of old 28 part aswini division of lunar path) and Aswini Nakshatra (referenced in the 27 part equal division) are different. Of course the aswini star could be at 10 degree or any other degree of Aswini Nakshatra division. There is no problem involved, since the word Aswini Nakshatra refers to a 13 degree 20 min division of the sky. Who told you that Aswini Star is at the starting point of Aswini division? I am yet to see any such reference - if you have one please share it with us; we would be much interested to see that! ==> > but then they are taking recourse to mathematical jargon and > technical abracadabra <== I can only compassionately comment - Poor fellow, he don't understand a thing about it! ==> > 5. Similarly, if a tanktrik needs navamsha, dwadashamsha and what > not aids to perform tantra kriya he/she is a big fraud and needs to > be hauled for misleading the gullible public in fact. <== Poor Kaul ji, if you were right, the same should be told about your Vedic Rishi's who spoke about festivals, Muhurtas, Fasts and so on. And the same goes true for any worldly knowledge that is argued as worldly! But luckily both the Agama and Nigama sages were not this much idiotic to consider worldly and spiritual things separately and make a split personality of themselves. They lived in the moment and that too to the fullest; and revered the beauty and rhythm of the universe; and in that joy spoke out many truths. If you like or dislike astrology was one of them. ==> 3. Mesha etc. Rashis have nothing to do with nakshatras <== That is just your view without much base. ==> > 6. You say Tantra shastra is a precursor to the Vedas. The > Kularnava Tantra that you are talking about is not very old in > itself, though it is supposed to be a dialogue between Shiva and > Parvati. In fact, all the Tantra shastras are dialogues between > Shiva and His consort, Parvati, but it appears that those > dialogues have not taken place in a very distant past, > > at least not before the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha, > which is a work compiled in Kashmir in the thirteenth century BCE! <== Tantra can be a precursor of Vedas because, it is a history supported by archeological evidence from Harappa civilization onwards, which was not at all Vedic. Ofcourse I know that Kularnava Tantra could be (and is) a work after the period of Vedas; no arguments about it. But ofcourse it reflects a tradition that is far ancient. Poor Kaul ji, as of your argument on the book of Lagadha called " Vedanga Jyotisha " is concerned; except the sloka " Asleshardham dakshinamuttaramayanam etc " in it what proof do you have?! The book is not even referenced by any even after 4th or 5th century AD!! What will you say about that - if I say that it could be a made up text? No external evidence support your argument Except your belief based on a simple sloka, that could be a result of back reference - not even calculation is necessary! So just learn to approach even small evidences with regard and reverence; your foot don't worth even the dust from those evidences; and you enjoy kicking them; poor damned soul! ==> 7. Regarding Tantra/yoga shastras being superior to the Vedas, I > wonder > > whether you have gone through the " Shiva Mahimna Stotra " of > Pushpadanta > > yakshya! There is a beautiful sholka > > " Trayee sankhyam yogah pashupati matam vaishanavam iti, > > Prabhinne prasthane param idam adah pathya iti chai > > Rucheenam vaichitryad riju kutil nana patha jusham > > Nrinam eko gmyas tvam asi payasam arnava iva " > > " ...tvan-mayam etad ashesham idaneem > > Bhati mama tvad anugraha shaktya, > > tvam cha mahesha sadaiv mamatma > > Svatama mayam mama tena samastam > > Svatmani veshi gate tvayi nathe > > Tena na samsriti bheeti kathasti, > > satsvapi durdhar dukh vimoh > > Tras viayuishu karma ganeshu. " > > Do you think with such a yogic experience of being one with Shiva > and being thus bereft of any worldly miseries, <== Excuse me! I am not a scholar in Sanskrit. Can you please quote the meaning of the same in plane English? [Please quote the meaning when you quote the slokas; the mails in group are for everybody to read, not for you and me; and even if it is for me alone - you should quote the meaning] ==> > most useless and fundamentally incorrect Surya Sidhanta by Maya the > mlechha which has been praised to the skies by Varahamihira the > charlatan? <== Excuse me!! How many Surya sidhantas, Brihat Jatakas and other Astronomical and Astrological mile stones you have created? To state so you must be a great scholar in par with the sages or scientists and might be better than them! So please give the details so that I could read your ground breaking master pieces! ==> > I am afraid you are just misquoting Yoga and tantra shastras only > to prove your point! <== You can afraid as much as you want - but fundamentally your path and my path are different; what we want to do in life is different. Every individual has an aim; Yours is to refine Vedic calendar; mine is to make many subjects organized. So instead of quarrelling with all just try to do your work and put it in a well organized book format; and try to minimize all these curses and bad words in them. That could be more beneficial to all those who want to study the subject. ==> > I have a great deal of respect for you. <== Sorry That respect won't be accepted; because I know who I am and what I don't know better. ==> > please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and muhurtas which have been derailed by these " Vedic astrologers " ! <== God, save him! He don't know what he says! Poor Kaul ji, point explained in precious mail. Love, Sreenadh , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Kaul ji, > Acharya Abhinavgupta: I am yet to read or study his works. > ==> > > what you mean by " fixed stars " . > <== > Lol. You are very clever at twisting the points - I was speaking > about " fixed Nakshatra Chakra " ; in the original sense. As you know > well, the word " Nakshatra " is used in Vedas ONLY to refer to the 27 r > 28 divisions in vedas and not to refer to stars (Taras). You may need > to do a re-reading. > [We are always on the learners or researchers perspective and a > times it seems that you are on a masters or imposers perspective - > from where this touch of high ego comes to your mails Kaul ji; I > wonder! Can't we make our words a bit softer and humbler? Know that > our knowledge and capabilities are always limited] > ==> > > " Vedic astrologers " including you are propagating > <== > Me Vedic-astrologer?! May be you could call me an " Astrologer " or > even a " Non-Vedic astrologer " ! But No, Not " Vedic " ?! Please don't > insult me! As you know I love Non-Vedas than the Vedas, if they > are what you are trying to propagate! lollzzzz....... > > Of course I have a regard for Veda; but of course No, not in your > perspective! As far as " Vedic Astrology " is concerned, which mainly > refers to " Tropical astrology + Nakshtra Chakra " as I know it, I am > not much interested currently; Because as of now I am more interested > in " Nirayaya Astrology " and organizing the material available in it. > Yes of course I will turn my interest to and will try to " organize > the material available on Nakshtra Chakra and Tropical astrology " as > depicted in Vedas and puranas - once this work is over at least to an > extend. It is a long term task - and what ever you may say; I know > what I need to do. Please don't ignorantly advice stupidities such > as - > ==> > > please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, festivals and > > muhurtas which have been derailed by these " Vedic astrologers " > <== > Hindu Fasts : Do you thinks there exists a hell or heaven to reward > the bank deposit of Punya you make?! [Of course they have a > connection with health; but I don't think you grasp that idea till > now] > (Hindu)Festivals: Festivals are good whether it is Hindu, Christian, > Muslim or Jain or what ever on earth. That is the period to celebrate > and rejoice. Actually celebrating festivals like a bulb, which turns > on when switch on, it is better to celeberate the joy within! The > Festival day come and you start celebrating, even if the joy is not > with in - how on earth can we do it?! So I am better in support of > the Festivals that come from within. I could see that actually you > are not even pointing to this - but to " celebrating Festivals on day > proposed by (Hindu!) Vedas " (ascribing the word 'Hindu' to Vedas even > degenerate the Vedas; Vedas do not and should not have any religious > connotaion; the religion of vedas is the religion of the enlightened > individual, NOT of the society. But I don't think you could grasp > this statement). If there is no predictive astrology what the hell > you think is the importance of 'Proper day' and 'Proper Muhurta'? > Your argument of " celebrating festivals on proper Day/Muhurta " loss > all its significance in the absence of astrology. Instead of > foolishly arguing much - understand this fact. If you discard > astrology - be an intelligenet individual and discard all this stupid > arguments in support of fasts, festivals etc in " Proper day/muhurta " . > Or accept astrology whether it be " Tropical/Sayana/Nirayana " or what > ever it is. > > Muhurtas: Hay man! What do you think a Muhurta is? What is it's > relevance in the absence of astrology? Why should we Fast or act out > the Festivals at all? Why it should be important? I don't think a > simple man need Fast, or Festival or Muhurta to lead his simple life. > What is your relevant lost ideas about the " (Hindu! - stupid!) Vedas, > Fasts and Festivals " ? > > Rasi charka: As you mentioned, I am in favor of considering starting > point of Mesha, and Aswini Nakshatra 120 degree away from Moola star; > yes, the " Mooladhara Chakra " of C.hari you refers to. Instead of > brushing aside the works of C.hari as " mathematical jargon " (which is > another way of saying - " I don't understand a bit of it " ! or that " I > don't have the intellectual acumen to understand it! " ), please try to > understand it. If you don't agree to it, try to answer the same using > the same mathematical language to C.Hari; instead of resorting to > pedestrian language and approach as Petrecia ji once rightly judged. > > The mail is becoming too long - I will respond to some of the other > points mentioned in your post in the next mail. But before that one > very important point: Note it. > " Instead of wasting your time to recast people your absurd way of > thinking, by fighting and arguing with them, do some creating work of > putting your understanding systematically in paper; a single book " > > Hope you get the point, > Love, > Sreenadh > > , " jyotirved " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Shri Sreenadhji, > > Namaskar! > > > > Thanks for referring me to your views about Kularnava Tantra. > > > > Your comments in the end, " Kaulji (Avtar Krishen Kaul) at times > blindly > > argues that Tantra contains no astrology without ever studying them > with an > > inquisitive perspective...I think as he discards the fixed > nakshatra chakra > > proposed by the Vedas, his beliefs do not tally even with the Vedic > > tradition " . > > > > A couple of points have to be mulled over: > > 1. Acharya Abhinavgupta was one of the greatest yogis of India. He > was the > > greatest yogi Kashmir has ever produced till date. In his > Tantraloka, a > > work recognized and respected the world over, he has talked of > Mesha etc. > > rashis in terms of the six seasons. He has made it very clear that > Mina and > > Mesha rashis are the months of Vasanta and so on. He has also said > that > > Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year and Mesha Sankranti > when day > > and night are equal. This will be evident from my BVB6.doc. As > such, you > > can say that real yogis have recommended nay even practiced and > followed a > > so called Tropical zodiac for yogic practices as well as fairs and > festivals > > and muhurtas, as against the so called nirayana rashis/zodiac that > the so > > called " Vedic astrologers " including you are propagating! > > > > 2. I do not know what you mean by " discarding the fixed nakshatra > chakra " . > > The nakshatra-chakra has been existing from the dawn of the > creation and > > cannot be discarded by anybody howsoever great a yogi or tantric > he/she > > maybe -- leave alone puny chaps like me! The confusion > about " fixed " and > > " moving " Nakshatras has been created by " Vedic astrologers " and not > by > > astronomy or Vedic Rishis or yogis and the real tantriks! > > > > Nakshatras are " made of " stars. Milky Ways (clusters of Galaxies) > are > > nothing but clusters of stars. Some of these are billions of light > years > > away from us. Astronomers tell us that the farthest galaxies are > moving > > away from as at the maximum speed! I do not, therefore, understand > as to > > what you mean by " fixed stars " . > > > > The fact of the matter is that Stars have two types of motion. > Proper and > > Mean. Thus they are not fixed at all! They are fixed > only " comparatively " > > since their Proper Motion is only with respect to other stars, in > our case > > the sun. The problem arises only when you start measuring the > longitudes of > > these stars! We must not forget that " sun is also a star " and > technically, > > that also must be " fixed " then. But then no astrologer treats it as > > " fixed " . > > > > In any case, you must have a zero to start from! For these good > for > > nothing " Vedic astrologers " that zero is a blind man's buff! In > your case > > (actually in the case of Shri Chandra Hari, who talks of " Muladhara > > ayanamsha " ) the zero is Mula nakshatra, but then he takes as > ayanamsha the > > Sayana longitude of Mula nakshatra minus 240 degrees! Similarly, > in the > > case of Lahiri, it should have been Chitra Star, but then he has > advised us > > to subtract 180 degrees from the sayana longitude of that star in > 285 AD to > > arrive at his Ayanamsha! That way, therefore, only Revati paksha > could be > > given some credit since they take the Revati star as the starting > point, but > > then they also take the sayana longitude of that star and then > subtract that > > longitude from that (Revati) star to make it as zero! > > In other words, whichever way you go, you start the rashichakra by > > manipulating the so called sayana longitudes of some or the other > star! To > > crown it with further " beauty " (actually ugliness!) of the so called > > nirayana system, Ashvini star is away by ten degrees from the start > of > > Ashvini nakshatra, whatever ayanamsha you follow, when actually > everybody > > talks of " Mesharamba-bindu and Ashvini nakhatra " as the starting > points of > > the zodiac! > > It is therefore clear that no nirayanawala knows himself as to > wherefrom his > > " fixed " zodiac should be " fixed " , but then they are taking recourse > to > > mathematical jargon and technical abracadabra to hide their own > > misconceptions about the so called Rashichakra, the nirayana one! > > > > The Vedic Rishis had no such problems! For them the nakshatra- > chakra > > started from that nakshatra where the Vernal Equinox was falling > e.g., > > Krittikas during the time of Yajur Veda and the Vedanga Jyotisha! > It should > > thus start from Purvabhadra these days! > > > > Modern astronomers are also following a similar system! The zero > of the > > individual stars (which make nakshatra divisions) is the Vernal > Equinox > > itself! Since the Vernal Equinox keeps on " precessing " i.e. > moving, the > > measurement undergoes a change. That is why these useless > jyotishis call > > such measurements as moving zodiacs, when actually there is nothing > like > > moving and fixed zodiac/rashichakra, since the zodiac is just one > and it > > cannot keep on moving and be static simultaneously! > > > > 3. Mesha etc. Rashis have nothing to do with nakshatras -- this > has been > > amply demonstrated by me through several posts! When you talk of > clubbing > > the two, you do not know yourself as to what you are talking about > since > > this trend started only from Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta and > not from > > any dialogue between Shiva and Parvati of any Tantra work! > > > > 4. Regarding " jyotisha " (by which you mean predictive gimmicks!) > being a > > part of the Tantra/Yoga shastra all I can say is that if a yogi > needs > > crutches like horoscope to know his future, he is a fatalist and > not a yogi > > at all! He/she is just a charlatan who poses to be a yogi! > > > > 5. Similarly, if a tanktrik needs navamsha, dwadashamsha and what > not aids > > to perform tantra kriya he/she is a big fraud and needs to be > hauled for > > misleading the gullible public In fact, day in and day out, we are > seeing > > the pranks of such tantriks on almost every channel these days! > God only > > can save India from such tantriks and yogis! > > > > 6. You say Tantra shastra is a precursor to the Vedas. The > Kularnava > > Tantra that you are talking about is not very old in itself, though > it is > > supposed to be a dialogue between Shiva and Parvati. In fact, all > the Tantra > > shastras are dialogues between Shiva and His consort, Parvati, but > it > > appears that those dialogues have not taken place in a very > distant past, > > at least not before the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha, which > is a work > > compiled in Kashmir in the thirteenth century BCE! > > > > 7. Regarding Tantra/yoga shastras being superior to the Vedas, I > wonder > > whether you have gone through the " Shiva Mahimna Stotra " of > Pushpadanta > > yakshya! There is a beautiful sholka > > " Trayee sankhyam yogah pashupati matam vaishanavam iti, > > Prabhinne prasthane param idam adah pathya iti chai > > Rucheenam vaichitryad riju kutil nana patha jusham > > Nrinam eko gmyas tvam asi payasam arnava iva " > > > > I am sure you will be able to decipher its meaning yourself! > > > > 8. In my childhood, we used to recite Acharya Bhinavagupta's > > " Vyapta-Charachara " stotra every day in Kashmir. One of its > sholkas is > > " ...tvan-mayam etad ashesham idaneem > > Bhati mama tvad anugraha shaktya, > > tvam cha mahesha sadaiv mamatma > > Svatama mayam mama tena samastam > > Svatmani veshi gate tvayi nathe > > Tena na samsriti bheeti kathasti, > > satsvapi durdhar dukh vimoh > > Tras viayuishu karma ganeshu. " > > Do you think with such a yogic experience of being one with Shiva > and being > > thus bereft of any worldly miseries, Acharya Abhinavgupta would > have taken > > recourse to deciphering his horoscope that also on the basis of the > most > > useless and fundamentally incorrect Surya Sidhanta by Maya the > mlechha which > > has been praised to the skies by Varahamihira the charlatan? I am > afraid > > you are just misquoting Yoga and tantra shastras only to prove your > point! > > My dear Sreenadhji, you are a very erudite scholar of Tantra and > > Yogashastras! I have a great deal of respect for you. I have also > just one > > humble request. Instead of wasting your scholarship and time in > trying to > > prove the existence of a so called nirayana rashichakra as per the > tantra > > and yoga shaastras, just try to understand the real problem! There > are no > > Rashis either in the Vedas or in the Patanjala Yoga Sutra! So > there is no > > question of there being so called nirayana rashis or sayana rashis > in either > > tantra shastra or Yoga shastra, much less the Vedas! Please > therefore, > > discard all these myriad rashichakras once for all and instead of > advocating > > baseless predictive gimmicks, which have not been advocated by any > yogi or > > tantrik or Rishi, please try to streamline the Hindu fasts, > festivals and > > muhurtas which have been derailed by these " Vedic astrologers " ! > > With regards, > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul > > > > > > On Behalf Of Sreenadh > > Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:36 PM > > HinduCalendar > > Subject:Astrology in Kularnava Tantra > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > Hope you will have look at the document. I have some comments for > > you in the document. The file is not anything serious, just the > result > > of yesterday's reading - 2 hrs work. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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