Ramayana and Budha

[Guest guest]

Dear Kaul ji,

I have uploaded a small article about 'Ramayana calls Buddha a

Thief' in the files section of the group. The URL is given below:

Sreenadh/ Ramayana

and Budha.pdf

After reading it and possibly after going through your own research,

I hope you will agree on the fact that Ramayana is a text created or

'revised' during 3rd Century AD in Sunga period.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kaul ji,

> ==>

> > If they have an entirely different gamut for calculating planets and

> > festivals etc., why should they follow " almighty " Lahiri from

> > Kolkatta even today, instead of some authority from Tamilnadu or

> > Kerala?

> <==

> Dear Kaul ji, be realistic!! The traditional Tamilians follow " Pampu

> panganga " a kind of Vakya panganga (supposed to be originated by

> Vararuchi) and NOT Lahari panganga. But as you could guess, the by not

> modifying for many years the the 'Pampu Panganga' also gives erronious

> data if we look at them in the light of modern scientific knowledge.

> As far as Kerala is concerned they were using Aryabhata system, and

> then modified it as " Parahita system " to be in tune with observed

> results, and then again came the modification later known as

> " Drigganita system " of somayagi. I don't think they were in any way

> bothered about Lahari for that matter in those days! Even now the

> traditional astrologers use the Vakyas as per Drigganita system; but

> as you could guess the system is not as accurate as modern values due

> to lack of modifications after the period of Somayagi, and the lack of

> renovation in the field for many decades.

>

> Pongal: I am no athority on Pongal, and currently I am in Delhi, not

> in Tamilnadu, and not in my native state Kerala. If some relevant data

> comes to my hand I will share it. But the point is I am yet to see any

> document state explicitly state that " Pongal is Makara Sankranti " or

> that " Pongal should be celebrated on the shortest day of the year " . I

> think the same would be your situation as well.

>

> Ramayana calls Buddha 'Thief':

> ==>

> > Would you kindly quote the relevant shloka with reference to the

> > context which has made the above statements! I have gone through

> > the Valmiki Ramayana, the Ramacharitamanasa and also the Adyatma

> > Ramayana from cover to cover but there are no such sholkas as refer

> > to Budha as a thief and the people of Anga and Vanga as monkeys!

> <==

> You have gone through the 'Valmiki Ramayana' and didn't found that

> quote! Kaul ji, at times I am surprised about your search or reading

> methods, which always 'misses' the relevant data!! The same happened

> with Vedic references of Planets etc and now here as well.

> I will provide the relevant quote tomorrow.

>

> ==>

> > Let us make some earnest efforts to arrive at the Truth and nothing

> > but Truth instead of trying to be parochial and denigrating the

> > Vedas, including the Krishna Yajurveda, which, to the best of my

> > knowledge, is an authentic work for South India also.

> <==

> Dear Kaul ji, I liked this " Let us make some earnest efforts to

> arrive at the Truth and nothing but Truth " part of the sentance; But

> don't have any regard for the remaining part of the sentance. Vedas or

> no Vedas who is bothered?! If there is some appreciable content in

> something that should be appreciated - let it be Vedic or Non-Vedic.

> Actually If it is Non-Vedic and yet still Indian, I would be more

> happy always; because India has suffered enough with the castism and

> greed and manipulation caused by so called Brahmins who act as if the

> protectors of Vedas just to get their daily bread by chanting some

> slokas out of context, with out knowing their meaning or relevance.

> Ancient Tantric Saivism, Asura culture of Harappa, Dravidian

> culture, Jain and Buddha culture are all Indian and is more valuable

> than this frantic run after Vedas.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Shri Sreenadhji,

> > Namaskar!

> > Please let me know the basis of Pongal etc. Sankrantis in Tamilnadu

> > and Kerala etc. Please quote the relevant authorites --- I mean the

> > Tamil or Malayalam ones etc. --- with their translations in English

> > language since I know neither of these languages. (I do not know

> > even Kannada or Teluguu, for that matter)!. Please also let me know

> > which sidhanta, if any, they follow for calculating the planetary

> > positions and even their festivals. If they have an entirely

> > different gamut for calculating planets and festivals etc., why

> > should they follow " almighty " Lahiri from Kolkatta even today,

> > instead of some authority from Tamilnadu or Kerala? To the best of

> > my knowledge, nobody follows Ramana Ayanamsha, at least for deciding

> > the festivals etc., including Pongal, inspite of the fact that he

> > was from South India, even if Karnataka! Why? Was he unaware of

> > any distinctions between the South Indian culture and the rest of

> > India!

> >

> > When I aquoted Acharya Sayana's translation of the Samaveda as a

> > proof that even he talked of Madhu, Madhava etc. months instead of

> > the non-existent Mesha etc. Sankrantis for festivals, you pooh-

> > poohed that idea also! Was Sayana Acharya not a South Indian?

> >

> > Not in the distant past, Panchansidhantika has been translated by a

> > gentleman from South India---Tamilnadu--and it has been published by

> > a South Indian pubisher, that also from Tamilnadu. You must

> > certainly have read that translation! Even he has made it

> > abundantly clear that we are following a wrong gamut for festivals

> > since we must follow nothing but the so called Sayana

> > Rashis, if at all we have to follow any Rashis, for fetivals! Is

> > that translator and publisher alos unaware of the grandure of Tamil

> > culture, that he is advocating a Sayana Rashichakra for festivals

> > etc.

> >

> > You have made a fantastic statement

> > <Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and Dravidians

> > and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern

> > coast; Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that

> > such scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by

> > Dravidian people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?!>

> >

> > Would you kindly quote the relevant shloka with reference to the

> > context which has made the above statements! I have gone through

> > the Valmiki Ramayana, the Ramacharitamanasa and also the Adyatma

> > Ramayana from cover to cover but there are no such sholkas as refer

> > to Budha as a thief and the people of Anga and Vanga as monkeys!

> >

> > Let us make some earnest efforts to arrive at the Truth and nothing

> > but Truth instead of trying to be parochial and denigrating the

> > Vedas, including the Krishna Yajurveda, which, to the best of my

> > knowledge, is an authentic work for South India also.

> > Regards,

> > AKK

> >

> > , " Sreenadh "

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kaul ji,

> > > Reading the following statement, I felt that you have no idea

> > about

> > > the culture and tradition of Tamilnadu, the homeland of Davidians,

> > > which rappel Hindi, Sanskrit etc almost fanatically and strick to

> > > their own system even today.

> > > ==>

> > > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by

> > some

> > > > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana,

> > Central

> > > > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on.

> > > <==

> > > Even though Jain, Buddha and Vedic (Aryan/Deva) religion found its

> > > way to Tamilnadu. Pongal is their festival. Tamilnadu is unlike any

> > > other state in India and most of their festivals etc is based on

> > their

> > > own tradition and regional scriptures even though here and there

> > you

> > > may find exceptions (caused by the onslaught of other religions on

> > > Dravidion religion and tradition). It is a language that has got a

> > > history of existence almost equal to that of Sanskrit. The earliest

> > > Tamil writing (archeological evidence) dates back to BC 300.

> > > Tirukkural, Patittupatte, Purannanoore, Saivagama etc are their

> > oldest

> > > scriptures and NOT VEDAS! So have a minor research on the content

> > of

> > > such regional scriptures before making any such statements. Of

> > course

> > > I am not any authority on the same - but for sure I know that they

> > > hate VEDAS and ARYANS. Trying to project that they followed

> > Vedic

> > > rituals or festivals is nothing but another onslaught on their

> > > tradition.

> > > As far as history is concerned the biggest manipulation of

> > earlier

> > > texts happen possibly on the nasty 'Sunga Period' I think; why one

> > of

> > > the nasty brahmins who have done nothing but distorted scriptures

> > have

> > > came to power become the king and 'Revived' (read 'Manipulated',

> > > 'Interpolated' or 'Corrupted') ancient texts!! And the North LOST

> > > continuety of history and knowledge. A bit here and there the Jain

> > and

> > > the Dravidians preserved but in total it is all bits and pieces

> > and

> > > the interpolated stories now available. Most of the puranas must

> > have

> > > been created ('revived'!)in the Sunga period of 3rd century AD and

> > so

> > > is Ramayana. Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and

> > Dravidians

> > > and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern

> > cost;

> > > Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that such

> > > scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by

> > Dravidian

> > > people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?! Even if you said the same about

> > > Kerla my native land that was a possibility, but as I know

> > > Tamilians,Tamil nadu and their pride in the Dravidian culture -

> > They

> > > will better observe and value the methods of Ravana than rama (the

> > guy

> > > unheard in history, vedas or brahmanas or Upanishads).

> > > Pongal may or may not have some connection with seasons; but for

> > > sure they don't seems to came to practice out of reading or

> > following

> > > some Vedic year system of the so called Aryans (=Brahmins) for whom

> > > the Dravidian Tamil people usually have a disregard.

> > > This is why the regional scripts and tradition is more important

> > in

> > > such cases than your 'Vedic imagination'.

> > >

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > , " Avtar Krishen

> > Kaul "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Shri Sreenadh ji,

> > > > Namaskar!

> > > > I hope you have gone through the articles 1999b.doc etc. If

> > yes,

> > > > you must certainly have got the answer as to when the

> > > > Pauranic/sidhantic Makar Sankranti is to be observed/celebrated,

> > > > since as you have rightly said, there is no mention of any Makar

> > > > Rashi in the Vedas, though the start of (solar) Magha, Tapas and

> > > > Uttarayana have been referred to in the Vedic lore at several

> > > > places. The Vedanga Jyotisha also has done the same thing.

> > > >

> > > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by

> > some

> > > > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana,

> > Central

> > > > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on.

> > The

> > > > Valmiki Ramayana and the Mahabharata, to the best of my

> > knowledge,

> > > > are applicable to whole of India! The Manusmriti is also a

> > > > universally acknowledged authority for Hindus of all the

> > regions.

> > > > Further, according to Alberuni, Vishnudharmotarapurana was said

> > to

> > > > be the deciding factor in being treated as an authority for

> > arriving

> > > > at the actual dates of festivals and fairs!

> > > >

> > > > And of course, all these

> > scriputres/puranas/authorities/sidhantas

> > > > talk of nothing but the shortest day of the year as Uttarayana-

> > cum-

> > > > Makar Sankranti (Pongal can be a local synonym for the same!)

> > and

> > > > the longest day as Dakshinayana-cum-Karka Sankranti etc. etc.

> > All

> > > > these proofs are already available in 1999b.doc and BVB6.doc etc.

> > > >

> > > > As any panchanga-maker should know, lunar (synodic) months have

> > no

> > > > independent existence of their own in Hindu religion, whatever

> > the

> > > > region maybe. They are alwasy pegged to the solar months which

> > are

> > > > seasonal as per all the shastras. Thus lunar months are also to

> > be

> > > > calculated accordingly. However, unfortunately for India, which

> > is

> > > > ruled by so called nirayana Vedic Jyotishis, we are neither

> > > > follwoing the dictums of the Vedas nor the Puranas nor the

> > Smritis---

> > > > but just the dictates of Lahiriwallas and Ramanawallas etc.

> > etc.!

> > > > As such, we are just like Trishanku---celebrating our fasts and

> > > > festivals and muhurtas neither as per Hindu scriptures nor as

> > per

> > > > modern astronomy, thanks to " Vedic jastrologers " and

> > their " Vedic

> > > > astrology "

> > > > Regards,

> > > > AKK

> > > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kaul ji, Jyotish ji,

> > > > > Yes, Jyotish said it RIGHT. As far as regional celebrations

> > are

> > > > > concerned the rules given in the regional scriptures is valid,

> > and

> > > > > not the vedic style etc is not at all important, since they

> > don't

> > > > > deal with the same or even mentions such regional celebrations

> > or

> > > > > calendars. The point is:

> > > > > * For regional celebrations the regional customs and

> > scriptures

> > > > are

> > > > > valid (and forget the Vedas; what business they got in it?)

> > > > > * For regional calendars, the beginning date (of calendar or

> > > > year)

> > > > > MAY or MAYNOT have some astronomical importance. (But there

> > also

> > > > > Vedas does have any business; even though the Vedic style can

> > be

> > > > used

> > > > > as a minor reference)

> > > > > I think this is the better and impartial attitude.

> > > > >

> > > > > Note 1: Here I am speaking about 'Pongal' the regional

> > > > celebration.

> > > > > As far as Makar Sankranti is concerned Kaul is right if we are

> > > > > speaking about the Sayana zodiac if not he is wrong. The same

> > > > holds

> > > > > true if it is proved from REGIONAL SCRIPTURES that 'Pongal'

> > > > > and 'Makara Sankranti' are one and the same. As far as his

> > > > Tropical

> > > > > Zodiac is concerned, as per Kaul's line of argument, `Makar'

> > etc

> > > > does

> > > > > not exist – instead the vedic months Madhava, Madhu, etc are

> > > > > important. Therefore the question of Makar sankranti does not

> > even

> > > > > arise in the vedic system as he projects it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Note 2: Dear Jyotish ji, At the end of your post there is a

> > > > statement

> > > > > " Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer

> > > > > Over five decades of experience "

> > > > > At first look it would seem that " Jai Maharaj " is your

> > > > > name, " Jyotishi " your profession and " Vedic Astrologer " a

> > > > repetition.

> > > > > As a friend if " Jai Maharaj " is a praise of god, put it in a

> > > > separate

> > > > > line - in your usual postings anywhere; that would help to

> > avoid

> > > > > confusion.

> > > > > Second, since we are all friends just discussing a subject,

> > apart

> > > > > from the name, is all this decorations " Vedic Astrologer; Over

> > > > five

> > > > > decades of experience " etc necessary? It looks funny. If you

> > find

> > > > my

> > > > > statement personal or objectionable please pardon; I am just

> > > > making a

> > > > > friendly observation/statement.

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > > , Jyotishi

> > > > > <jyotish2000@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, there are no such " Vedic injunctions " that

> > > > > > " Pongal/Makar Shankranti should be celebrated on

> > > > > > the shortest day of the year " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer

> > > > > > Over five decades of experience

> > > > > > Om Shanti

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > " These siderealists, caring two hoots

> > > > > > > for the Vedic injunctions, that Pongal/Makar

> > > > > > > Sankranti should be celebrated on the shortest

> > > > > > > day of the year, (around December 21 these days)

> > > > > > . . . "

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Description : Astronomical as well as

> > > > > > > scriptural proofs that " Vedic astrology " is

> > > > > > > compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and

> > > > > > > muhurtas on wrong days!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > BVB6.doc

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > ___________________

> > > > _

> > > > > ______________

> > > > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from

> > someone

> > > > > who knows. Answers - Check it out.

> > > > > > http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>