Guest guest Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Shri Sreenadh ji, Namaskar! I hope you have gone through the articles 1999b.doc etc. If yes, you must certainly have got the answer as to when the Pauranic/sidhantic Makar Sankranti is to be observed/celebrated, since as you have rightly said, there is no mention of any Makar Rashi in the Vedas, though the start of (solar) Magha, Tapas and Uttarayana have been referred to in the Vedic lore at several places. The Vedanga Jyotisha also has done the same thing. Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by some shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, Central and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. The Valmiki Ramayana and the Mahabharata, to the best of my knowledge, are applicable to whole of India! The Manusmriti is also a universally acknowledged authority for Hindus of all the regions. Further, according to Alberuni, Vishnudharmotarapurana was said to be the deciding factor in being treated as an authority for arriving at the actual dates of festivals and fairs! And of course, all these scriputres/puranas/authorities/sidhantas talk of nothing but the shortest day of the year as Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti (Pongal can be a local synonym for the same!) and the longest day as Dakshinayana-cum-Karka Sankranti etc. etc. All these proofs are already available in 1999b.doc and BVB6.doc etc. As any panchanga-maker should know, lunar (synodic) months have no independent existence of their own in Hindu religion, whatever the region maybe. They are alwasy pegged to the solar months which are seasonal as per all the shastras. Thus lunar months are also to be calculated accordingly. However, unfortunately for India, which is ruled by so called nirayana Vedic Jyotishis, we are neither follwoing the dictums of the Vedas nor the Puranas nor the Smritis--- but just the dictates of Lahiriwallas and Ramanawallas etc. etc.! As such, we are just like Trishanku---celebrating our fasts and festivals and muhurtas neither as per Hindu scriptures nor as per modern astronomy, thanks to " Vedic jastrologers " and their " Vedic astrology " Regards, AKK , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Kaul ji, Jyotish ji, > Yes, Jyotish said it RIGHT. As far as regional celebrations are > concerned the rules given in the regional scriptures is valid, and > not the vedic style etc is not at all important, since they don't > deal with the same or even mentions such regional celebrations or > calendars. The point is: > * For regional celebrations the regional customs and scriptures are > valid (and forget the Vedas; what business they got in it?) > * For regional calendars, the beginning date (of calendar or year) > MAY or MAYNOT have some astronomical importance. (But there also > Vedas does have any business; even though the Vedic style can be used > as a minor reference) > I think this is the better and impartial attitude. > > Note 1: Here I am speaking about 'Pongal' the regional celebration. > As far as Makar Sankranti is concerned Kaul is right if we are > speaking about the Sayana zodiac if not he is wrong. The same holds > true if it is proved from REGIONAL SCRIPTURES that 'Pongal' > and 'Makara Sankranti' are one and the same. As far as his Tropical > Zodiac is concerned, as per Kaul's line of argument, `Makar' etc does > not exist – instead the vedic months Madhava, Madhu, etc are > important. Therefore the question of Makar sankranti does not even > arise in the vedic system as he projects it. > > Note 2: Dear Jyotish ji, At the end of your post there is a statement > " Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > Over five decades of experience " > At first look it would seem that " Jai Maharaj " is your > name, " Jyotishi " your profession and " Vedic Astrologer " a repetition. > As a friend if " Jai Maharaj " is a praise of god, put it in a separate > line - in your usual postings anywhere; that would help to avoid > confusion. > Second, since we are all friends just discussing a subject, apart > from the name, is all this decorations " Vedic Astrologer; Over five > decades of experience " etc necessary? It looks funny. If you find my > statement personal or objectionable please pardon; I am just making a > friendly observation/statement. > Love, > Sreenadh > > , Jyotishi > <jyotish2000@> wrote: > > > > No, there are no such " Vedic injunctions " that > > " Pongal/Makar Shankranti should be celebrated on > > the shortest day of the year " . > > > > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > Over five decades of experience > > Om Shanti > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > " These siderealists, caring two hoots > > > for the Vedic injunctions, that Pongal/Makar > > > Sankranti should be celebrated on the shortest > > > day of the year, (around December 21 these days) > > . . . " > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Description : Astronomical as well as > > > scriptural proofs that " Vedic astrology " is > > > compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and > > > muhurtas on wrong days! > > > > > > BVB6.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________ _ > ______________ > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone > who knows. Answers - Check it out. > > http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Dear Kaul ji, Reading the following statement, I felt that you have no idea about the culture and tradition of Tamilnadu, the homeland of Davidians, which rappel Hindi, Sanskrit etc almost fanatically and strick to their own system even today. ==> > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by some > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, Central > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. <== Even though Jain, Buddha and Vedic (Aryan/Deva) religion found its way to Tamilnadu. Pongal is their festival. Tamilnadu is unlike any other state in India and most of their festivals etc is based on their own tradition and regional scriptures even though here and there you may find exceptions (caused by the onslaught of other religions on Dravidion religion and tradition). It is a language that has got a history of existence almost equal to that of Sanskrit. The earliest Tamil writing (archeological evidence) dates back to BC 300. Tirukkural, Patittupatte, Purannanoore, Saivagama etc are their oldest scriptures and NOT VEDAS! So have a minor research on the content of such regional scriptures before making any such statements. Of course I am not any authority on the same - but for sure I know that they hate VEDAS and ARYANS. Trying to project that they followed Vedic rituals or festivals is nothing but another onslaught on their tradition. As far as history is concerned the biggest manipulation of earlier texts happen possibly on the nasty 'Sunga Period' I think; why one of the nasty brahmins who have done nothing but distorted scriptures have came to power become the king and 'Revived' (read 'Manipulated', 'Interpolated' or 'Corrupted') ancient texts!! And the North LOST continuety of history and knowledge. A bit here and there the Jain and the Dravidians preserved but in total it is all bits and pieces and the interpolated stories now available. Most of the puranas must have been created ('revived'!)in the Sunga period of 3rd century AD and so is Ramayana. Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and Dravidians and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern cost; Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that such scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by Dravidian people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?! Even if you said the same about Kerla my native land that was a possibility, but as I know Tamilians,Tamil nadu and their pride in the Dravidian culture - They will better observe and value the methods of Ravana than rama (the guy unheard in history, vedas or brahmanas or Upanishads). Pongal may or may not have some connection with seasons; but for sure they don't seems to came to practice out of reading or following some Vedic year system of the so called Aryans (=Brahmins) for whom the Dravidian Tamil people usually have a disregard. This is why the regional scripts and tradition is more important in such cases than your 'Vedic imagination'. Love, Sreenadh , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Shri Sreenadh ji, > Namaskar! > I hope you have gone through the articles 1999b.doc etc. If yes, > you must certainly have got the answer as to when the > Pauranic/sidhantic Makar Sankranti is to be observed/celebrated, > since as you have rightly said, there is no mention of any Makar > Rashi in the Vedas, though the start of (solar) Magha, Tapas and > Uttarayana have been referred to in the Vedic lore at several > places. The Vedanga Jyotisha also has done the same thing. > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by some > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, Central > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. The > Valmiki Ramayana and the Mahabharata, to the best of my knowledge, > are applicable to whole of India! The Manusmriti is also a > universally acknowledged authority for Hindus of all the regions. > Further, according to Alberuni, Vishnudharmotarapurana was said to > be the deciding factor in being treated as an authority for arriving > at the actual dates of festivals and fairs! > > And of course, all these scriputres/puranas/authorities/sidhantas > talk of nothing but the shortest day of the year as Uttarayana-cum- > Makar Sankranti (Pongal can be a local synonym for the same!) and > the longest day as Dakshinayana-cum-Karka Sankranti etc. etc. All > these proofs are already available in 1999b.doc and BVB6.doc etc. > > As any panchanga-maker should know, lunar (synodic) months have no > independent existence of their own in Hindu religion, whatever the > region maybe. They are alwasy pegged to the solar months which are > seasonal as per all the shastras. Thus lunar months are also to be > calculated accordingly. However, unfortunately for India, which is > ruled by so called nirayana Vedic Jyotishis, we are neither > follwoing the dictums of the Vedas nor the Puranas nor the Smritis--- > but just the dictates of Lahiriwallas and Ramanawallas etc. etc.! > As such, we are just like Trishanku---celebrating our fasts and > festivals and muhurtas neither as per Hindu scriptures nor as per > modern astronomy, thanks to " Vedic jastrologers " and their " Vedic > astrology " > Regards, > AKK > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul ji, Jyotish ji, > > Yes, Jyotish said it RIGHT. As far as regional celebrations are > > concerned the rules given in the regional scriptures is valid, and > > not the vedic style etc is not at all important, since they don't > > deal with the same or even mentions such regional celebrations or > > calendars. The point is: > > * For regional celebrations the regional customs and scriptures > are > > valid (and forget the Vedas; what business they got in it?) > > * For regional calendars, the beginning date (of calendar or > year) > > MAY or MAYNOT have some astronomical importance. (But there also > > Vedas does have any business; even though the Vedic style can be > used > > as a minor reference) > > I think this is the better and impartial attitude. > > > > Note 1: Here I am speaking about 'Pongal' the regional > celebration. > > As far as Makar Sankranti is concerned Kaul is right if we are > > speaking about the Sayana zodiac if not he is wrong. The same > holds > > true if it is proved from REGIONAL SCRIPTURES that 'Pongal' > > and 'Makara Sankranti' are one and the same. As far as his > Tropical > > Zodiac is concerned, as per Kaul's line of argument, `Makar' etc > does > > not exist – instead the vedic months Madhava, Madhu, etc are > > important. Therefore the question of Makar sankranti does not even > > arise in the vedic system as he projects it. > > > > Note 2: Dear Jyotish ji, At the end of your post there is a > statement > > " Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > Over five decades of experience " > > At first look it would seem that " Jai Maharaj " is your > > name, " Jyotishi " your profession and " Vedic Astrologer " a > repetition. > > As a friend if " Jai Maharaj " is a praise of god, put it in a > separate > > line - in your usual postings anywhere; that would help to avoid > > confusion. > > Second, since we are all friends just discussing a subject, apart > > from the name, is all this decorations " Vedic Astrologer; Over > five > > decades of experience " etc necessary? It looks funny. If you find > my > > statement personal or objectionable please pardon; I am just > making a > > friendly observation/statement. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , Jyotishi > > <jyotish2000@> wrote: > > > > > > No, there are no such " Vedic injunctions " that > > > " Pongal/Makar Shankranti should be celebrated on > > > the shortest day of the year " . > > > > > > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > > Over five decades of experience > > > Om Shanti > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > " These siderealists, caring two hoots > > > > for the Vedic injunctions, that Pongal/Makar > > > > Sankranti should be celebrated on the shortest > > > > day of the year, (around December 21 these days) > > > . . . " > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Description : Astronomical as well as > > > > scriptural proofs that " Vedic astrology " is > > > > compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and > > > > muhurtas on wrong days! > > > > > > > > > > BVB6.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________ > _ > > ______________ > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone > > who knows. Answers - Check it out. > > > http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Shri Sreenadhji, Namaskar! Please let me know the basis of Pongal etc. Sankrantis in Tamilnadu and Kerala etc. Please quote the relevant authorites --- I mean the Tamil or Malayalam ones etc. --- with their translations in English language since I know neither of these languages. (I do not know even Kannada or Teluguu, for that matter)!. Please also let me know which sidhanta, if any, they follow for calculating the planetary positions and even their festivals. If they have an entirely different gamut for calculating planets and festivals etc., why should they follow " almighty " Lahiri from Kolkatta even today, instead of some authority from Tamilnadu or Kerala? To the best of my knowledge, nobody follows Ramana Ayanamsha, at least for deciding the festivals etc., including Pongal, inspite of the fact that he was from South India, even if Karnataka! Why? Was he unaware of any distinctions between the South Indian culture and the rest of India! When I aquoted Acharya Sayana's translation of the Samaveda as a proof that even he talked of Madhu, Madhava etc. months instead of the non-existent Mesha etc. Sankrantis for festivals, you pooh- poohed that idea also! Was Sayana Acharya not a South Indian? Not in the distant past, Panchansidhantika has been translated by a gentleman from South India---Tamilnadu--and it has been published by a South Indian pubisher, that also from Tamilnadu. You must certainly have read that translation! Even he has made it abundantly clear that we are following a wrong gamut for festivals since we must follow nothing but the so called Sayana Rashis, if at all we have to follow any Rashis, for fetivals! Is that translator and publisher alos unaware of the grandure of Tamil culture, that he is advocating a Sayana Rashichakra for festivals etc. You have made a fantastic statement <Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and Dravidians and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern coast; Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that such scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by Dravidian people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?!> Would you kindly quote the relevant shloka with reference to the context which has made the above statements! I have gone through the Valmiki Ramayana, the Ramacharitamanasa and also the Adyatma Ramayana from cover to cover but there are no such sholkas as refer to Budha as a thief and the people of Anga and Vanga as monkeys! Let us make some earnest efforts to arrive at the Truth and nothing but Truth instead of trying to be parochial and denigrating the Vedas, including the Krishna Yajurveda, which, to the best of my knowledge, is an authentic work for South India also. Regards, AKK , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Kaul ji, > Reading the following statement, I felt that you have no idea about > the culture and tradition of Tamilnadu, the homeland of Davidians, > which rappel Hindi, Sanskrit etc almost fanatically and strick to > their own system even today. > ==> > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by some > > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, Central > > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. > <== > Even though Jain, Buddha and Vedic (Aryan/Deva) religion found its > way to Tamilnadu. Pongal is their festival. Tamilnadu is unlike any > other state in India and most of their festivals etc is based on their > own tradition and regional scriptures even though here and there you > may find exceptions (caused by the onslaught of other religions on > Dravidion religion and tradition). It is a language that has got a > history of existence almost equal to that of Sanskrit. The earliest > Tamil writing (archeological evidence) dates back to BC 300. > Tirukkural, Patittupatte, Purannanoore, Saivagama etc are their oldest > scriptures and NOT VEDAS! So have a minor research on the content of > such regional scriptures before making any such statements. Of course > I am not any authority on the same - but for sure I know that they > hate VEDAS and ARYANS. Trying to project that they followed Vedic > rituals or festivals is nothing but another onslaught on their > tradition. > As far as history is concerned the biggest manipulation of earlier > texts happen possibly on the nasty 'Sunga Period' I think; why one of > the nasty brahmins who have done nothing but distorted scriptures have > came to power become the king and 'Revived' (read 'Manipulated', > 'Interpolated' or 'Corrupted') ancient texts!! And the North LOST > continuety of history and knowledge. A bit here and there the Jain and > the Dravidians preserved but in total it is all bits and pieces and > the interpolated stories now available. Most of the puranas must have > been created ('revived'!)in the Sunga period of 3rd century AD and so > is Ramayana. Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and Dravidians > and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern cost; > Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that such > scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by Dravidian > people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?! Even if you said the same about > Kerla my native land that was a possibility, but as I know > Tamilians,Tamil nadu and their pride in the Dravidian culture - They > will better observe and value the methods of Ravana than rama (the guy > unheard in history, vedas or brahmanas or Upanishads). > Pongal may or may not have some connection with seasons; but for > sure they don't seems to came to practice out of reading or following > some Vedic year system of the so called Aryans (=Brahmins) for whom > the Dravidian Tamil people usually have a disregard. > This is why the regional scripts and tradition is more important in > such cases than your 'Vedic imagination'. > > Love, > Sreenadh > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji, > > Namaskar! > > I hope you have gone through the articles 1999b.doc etc. If yes, > > you must certainly have got the answer as to when the > > Pauranic/sidhantic Makar Sankranti is to be observed/celebrated, > > since as you have rightly said, there is no mention of any Makar > > Rashi in the Vedas, though the start of (solar) Magha, Tapas and > > Uttarayana have been referred to in the Vedic lore at several > > places. The Vedanga Jyotisha also has done the same thing. > > > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by some > > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, Central > > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. The > > Valmiki Ramayana and the Mahabharata, to the best of my knowledge, > > are applicable to whole of India! The Manusmriti is also a > > universally acknowledged authority for Hindus of all the regions. > > Further, according to Alberuni, Vishnudharmotarapurana was said to > > be the deciding factor in being treated as an authority for arriving > > at the actual dates of festivals and fairs! > > > > And of course, all these scriputres/puranas/authorities/sidhantas > > talk of nothing but the shortest day of the year as Uttarayana- cum- > > Makar Sankranti (Pongal can be a local synonym for the same!) and > > the longest day as Dakshinayana-cum-Karka Sankranti etc. etc. All > > these proofs are already available in 1999b.doc and BVB6.doc etc. > > > > As any panchanga-maker should know, lunar (synodic) months have no > > independent existence of their own in Hindu religion, whatever the > > region maybe. They are alwasy pegged to the solar months which are > > seasonal as per all the shastras. Thus lunar months are also to be > > calculated accordingly. However, unfortunately for India, which is > > ruled by so called nirayana Vedic Jyotishis, we are neither > > follwoing the dictums of the Vedas nor the Puranas nor the Smritis--- > > but just the dictates of Lahiriwallas and Ramanawallas etc. etc.! > > As such, we are just like Trishanku---celebrating our fasts and > > festivals and muhurtas neither as per Hindu scriptures nor as per > > modern astronomy, thanks to " Vedic jastrologers " and their " Vedic > > astrology " > > Regards, > > AKK > > , " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, Jyotish ji, > > > Yes, Jyotish said it RIGHT. As far as regional celebrations are > > > concerned the rules given in the regional scriptures is valid, and > > > not the vedic style etc is not at all important, since they don't > > > deal with the same or even mentions such regional celebrations or > > > calendars. The point is: > > > * For regional celebrations the regional customs and scriptures > > are > > > valid (and forget the Vedas; what business they got in it?) > > > * For regional calendars, the beginning date (of calendar or > > year) > > > MAY or MAYNOT have some astronomical importance. (But there also > > > Vedas does have any business; even though the Vedic style can be > > used > > > as a minor reference) > > > I think this is the better and impartial attitude. > > > > > > Note 1: Here I am speaking about 'Pongal' the regional > > celebration. > > > As far as Makar Sankranti is concerned Kaul is right if we are > > > speaking about the Sayana zodiac if not he is wrong. The same > > holds > > > true if it is proved from REGIONAL SCRIPTURES that 'Pongal' > > > and 'Makara Sankranti' are one and the same. As far as his > > Tropical > > > Zodiac is concerned, as per Kaul's line of argument, `Makar' etc > > does > > > not exist – instead the vedic months Madhava, Madhu, etc are > > > important. Therefore the question of Makar sankranti does not even > > > arise in the vedic system as he projects it. > > > > > > Note 2: Dear Jyotish ji, At the end of your post there is a > > statement > > > " Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > > Over five decades of experience " > > > At first look it would seem that " Jai Maharaj " is your > > > name, " Jyotishi " your profession and " Vedic Astrologer " a > > repetition. > > > As a friend if " Jai Maharaj " is a praise of god, put it in a > > separate > > > line - in your usual postings anywhere; that would help to avoid > > > confusion. > > > Second, since we are all friends just discussing a subject, apart > > > from the name, is all this decorations " Vedic Astrologer; Over > > five > > > decades of experience " etc necessary? It looks funny. If you find > > my > > > statement personal or objectionable please pardon; I am just > > making a > > > friendly observation/statement. > > > Love, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > , Jyotishi > > > <jyotish2000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > No, there are no such " Vedic injunctions " that > > > > " Pongal/Makar Shankranti should be celebrated on > > > > the shortest day of the year " . > > > > > > > > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > > > Over five decades of experience > > > > Om Shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > " These siderealists, caring two hoots > > > > > for the Vedic injunctions, that Pongal/Makar > > > > > Sankranti should be celebrated on the shortest > > > > > day of the year, (around December 21 these days) > > > > . . . " > > > > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Description : Astronomical as well as > > > > > scriptural proofs that " Vedic astrology " is > > > > > compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and > > > > > muhurtas on wrong days! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BVB6.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________ > > _ > > > ______________ > > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone > > > who knows. Answers - Check it out. > > > > http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Dear Kaul ji, ==> > If they have an entirely different gamut for calculating planets and > festivals etc., why should they follow " almighty " Lahiri from > Kolkatta even today, instead of some authority from Tamilnadu or > Kerala? <== Dear Kaul ji, be realistic!! The traditional Tamilians follow " Pampu panganga " a kind of Vakya panganga (supposed to be originated by Vararuchi) and NOT Lahari panganga. But as you could guess, the by not modifying for many years the the 'Pampu Panganga' also gives erronious data if we look at them in the light of modern scientific knowledge. As far as Kerala is concerned they were using Aryabhata system, and then modified it as " Parahita system " to be in tune with observed results, and then again came the modification later known as " Drigganita system " of somayagi. I don't think they were in any way bothered about Lahari for that matter in those days! Even now the traditional astrologers use the Vakyas as per Drigganita system; but as you could guess the system is not as accurate as modern values due to lack of modifications after the period of Somayagi, and the lack of renovation in the field for many decades. Pongal: I am no athority on Pongal, and currently I am in Delhi, not in Tamilnadu, and not in my native state Kerala. If some relevant data comes to my hand I will share it. But the point is I am yet to see any document state explicitly state that " Pongal is Makara Sankranti " or that " Pongal should be celebrated on the shortest day of the year " . I think the same would be your situation as well. Ramayana calls Buddha 'Thief': ==> > Would you kindly quote the relevant shloka with reference to the > context which has made the above statements! I have gone through > the Valmiki Ramayana, the Ramacharitamanasa and also the Adyatma > Ramayana from cover to cover but there are no such sholkas as refer > to Budha as a thief and the people of Anga and Vanga as monkeys! <== You have gone through the 'Valmiki Ramayana' and didn't found that quote! Kaul ji, at times I am surprised about your search or reading methods, which always 'misses' the relevant data!! The same happened with Vedic references of Planets etc and now here as well. I will provide the relevant quote tomorrow. ==> > Let us make some earnest efforts to arrive at the Truth and nothing > but Truth instead of trying to be parochial and denigrating the > Vedas, including the Krishna Yajurveda, which, to the best of my > knowledge, is an authentic work for South India also. <== Dear Kaul ji, I liked this " Let us make some earnest efforts to arrive at the Truth and nothing but Truth " part of the sentance; But don't have any regard for the remaining part of the sentance. Vedas or no Vedas who is bothered?! If there is some appreciable content in something that should be appreciated - let it be Vedic or Non-Vedic. Actually If it is Non-Vedic and yet still Indian, I would be more happy always; because India has suffered enough with the castism and greed and manipulation caused by so called Brahmins who act as if the protectors of Vedas just to get their daily bread by chanting some slokas out of context, with out knowing their meaning or relevance. Ancient Tantric Saivism, Asura culture of Harappa, Dravidian culture, Jain and Buddha culture are all Indian and is more valuable than this frantic run after Vedas. Love, Sreenadh , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Shri Sreenadhji, > Namaskar! > Please let me know the basis of Pongal etc. Sankrantis in Tamilnadu > and Kerala etc. Please quote the relevant authorites --- I mean the > Tamil or Malayalam ones etc. --- with their translations in English > language since I know neither of these languages. (I do not know > even Kannada or Teluguu, for that matter)!. Please also let me know > which sidhanta, if any, they follow for calculating the planetary > positions and even their festivals. If they have an entirely > different gamut for calculating planets and festivals etc., why > should they follow " almighty " Lahiri from Kolkatta even today, > instead of some authority from Tamilnadu or Kerala? To the best of > my knowledge, nobody follows Ramana Ayanamsha, at least for deciding > the festivals etc., including Pongal, inspite of the fact that he > was from South India, even if Karnataka! Why? Was he unaware of > any distinctions between the South Indian culture and the rest of > India! > > When I aquoted Acharya Sayana's translation of the Samaveda as a > proof that even he talked of Madhu, Madhava etc. months instead of > the non-existent Mesha etc. Sankrantis for festivals, you pooh- > poohed that idea also! Was Sayana Acharya not a South Indian? > > Not in the distant past, Panchansidhantika has been translated by a > gentleman from South India---Tamilnadu--and it has been published by > a South Indian pubisher, that also from Tamilnadu. You must > certainly have read that translation! Even he has made it > abundantly clear that we are following a wrong gamut for festivals > since we must follow nothing but the so called Sayana > Rashis, if at all we have to follow any Rashis, for fetivals! Is > that translator and publisher alos unaware of the grandure of Tamil > culture, that he is advocating a Sayana Rashichakra for festivals > etc. > > You have made a fantastic statement > <Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and Dravidians > and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern > coast; Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that > such scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by > Dravidian people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?!> > > Would you kindly quote the relevant shloka with reference to the > context which has made the above statements! I have gone through > the Valmiki Ramayana, the Ramacharitamanasa and also the Adyatma > Ramayana from cover to cover but there are no such sholkas as refer > to Budha as a thief and the people of Anga and Vanga as monkeys! > > Let us make some earnest efforts to arrive at the Truth and nothing > but Truth instead of trying to be parochial and denigrating the > Vedas, including the Krishna Yajurveda, which, to the best of my > knowledge, is an authentic work for South India also. > Regards, > AKK > > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > Reading the following statement, I felt that you have no idea > about > > the culture and tradition of Tamilnadu, the homeland of Davidians, > > which rappel Hindi, Sanskrit etc almost fanatically and strick to > > their own system even today. > > ==> > > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by > some > > > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, > Central > > > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. > > <== > > Even though Jain, Buddha and Vedic (Aryan/Deva) religion found its > > way to Tamilnadu. Pongal is their festival. Tamilnadu is unlike any > > other state in India and most of their festivals etc is based on > their > > own tradition and regional scriptures even though here and there > you > > may find exceptions (caused by the onslaught of other religions on > > Dravidion religion and tradition). It is a language that has got a > > history of existence almost equal to that of Sanskrit. The earliest > > Tamil writing (archeological evidence) dates back to BC 300. > > Tirukkural, Patittupatte, Purannanoore, Saivagama etc are their > oldest > > scriptures and NOT VEDAS! So have a minor research on the content > of > > such regional scriptures before making any such statements. Of > course > > I am not any authority on the same - but for sure I know that they > > hate VEDAS and ARYANS. Trying to project that they followed > Vedic > > rituals or festivals is nothing but another onslaught on their > > tradition. > > As far as history is concerned the biggest manipulation of > earlier > > texts happen possibly on the nasty 'Sunga Period' I think; why one > of > > the nasty brahmins who have done nothing but distorted scriptures > have > > came to power become the king and 'Revived' (read 'Manipulated', > > 'Interpolated' or 'Corrupted') ancient texts!! And the North LOST > > continuety of history and knowledge. A bit here and there the Jain > and > > the Dravidians preserved but in total it is all bits and pieces > and > > the interpolated stories now available. Most of the puranas must > have > > been created ('revived'!)in the Sunga period of 3rd century AD and > so > > is Ramayana. Ramayana = A text that calls Budha 'Thief' and > Dravidians > > and people of Anga,Vanga etc (i.e People living in the Eastern > cost; > > Bangal, Orissa etc) as Monkeys!! And do you want to say that such > > scriptures and the rituals they preserved is 'observed' by > Dravidian > > people and especially 'Tamilnadu'?! Even if you said the same about > > Kerla my native land that was a possibility, but as I know > > Tamilians,Tamil nadu and their pride in the Dravidian culture - > They > > will better observe and value the methods of Ravana than rama (the > guy > > unheard in history, vedas or brahmanas or Upanishads). > > Pongal may or may not have some connection with seasons; but for > > sure they don't seems to came to practice out of reading or > following > > some Vedic year system of the so called Aryans (=Brahmins) for whom > > the Dravidian Tamil people usually have a disregard. > > This is why the regional scripts and tradition is more important > in > > such cases than your 'Vedic imagination'. > > > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Shri Sreenadh ji, > > > Namaskar! > > > I hope you have gone through the articles 1999b.doc etc. If > yes, > > > you must certainly have got the answer as to when the > > > Pauranic/sidhantic Makar Sankranti is to be observed/celebrated, > > > since as you have rightly said, there is no mention of any Makar > > > Rashi in the Vedas, though the start of (solar) Magha, Tapas and > > > Uttarayana have been referred to in the Vedic lore at several > > > places. The Vedanga Jyotisha also has done the same thing. > > > > > > Regarding regional basis of festivals, even the regions go by > some > > > shastra e.g. South mostly goes by Skanda and Shiva Purana, > Central > > > and Northern India by Bhagavata and Shiva Purana etc. and so on. > The > > > Valmiki Ramayana and the Mahabharata, to the best of my > knowledge, > > > are applicable to whole of India! The Manusmriti is also a > > > universally acknowledged authority for Hindus of all the > regions. > > > Further, according to Alberuni, Vishnudharmotarapurana was said > to > > > be the deciding factor in being treated as an authority for > arriving > > > at the actual dates of festivals and fairs! > > > > > > And of course, all these > scriputres/puranas/authorities/sidhantas > > > talk of nothing but the shortest day of the year as Uttarayana- > cum- > > > Makar Sankranti (Pongal can be a local synonym for the same!) > and > > > the longest day as Dakshinayana-cum-Karka Sankranti etc. etc. > All > > > these proofs are already available in 1999b.doc and BVB6.doc etc. > > > > > > As any panchanga-maker should know, lunar (synodic) months have > no > > > independent existence of their own in Hindu religion, whatever > the > > > region maybe. They are alwasy pegged to the solar months which > are > > > seasonal as per all the shastras. Thus lunar months are also to > be > > > calculated accordingly. However, unfortunately for India, which > is > > > ruled by so called nirayana Vedic Jyotishis, we are neither > > > follwoing the dictums of the Vedas nor the Puranas nor the > Smritis--- > > > but just the dictates of Lahiriwallas and Ramanawallas etc. > etc.! > > > As such, we are just like Trishanku---celebrating our fasts and > > > festivals and muhurtas neither as per Hindu scriptures nor as > per > > > modern astronomy, thanks to " Vedic jastrologers " and > their " Vedic > > > astrology " > > > Regards, > > > AKK > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul ji, Jyotish ji, > > > > Yes, Jyotish said it RIGHT. As far as regional celebrations > are > > > > concerned the rules given in the regional scriptures is valid, > and > > > > not the vedic style etc is not at all important, since they > don't > > > > deal with the same or even mentions such regional celebrations > or > > > > calendars. The point is: > > > > * For regional celebrations the regional customs and > scriptures > > > are > > > > valid (and forget the Vedas; what business they got in it?) > > > > * For regional calendars, the beginning date (of calendar or > > > year) > > > > MAY or MAYNOT have some astronomical importance. (But there > also > > > > Vedas does have any business; even though the Vedic style can > be > > > used > > > > as a minor reference) > > > > I think this is the better and impartial attitude. > > > > > > > > Note 1: Here I am speaking about 'Pongal' the regional > > > celebration. > > > > As far as Makar Sankranti is concerned Kaul is right if we are > > > > speaking about the Sayana zodiac if not he is wrong. The same > > > holds > > > > true if it is proved from REGIONAL SCRIPTURES that 'Pongal' > > > > and 'Makara Sankranti' are one and the same. As far as his > > > Tropical > > > > Zodiac is concerned, as per Kaul's line of argument, `Makar' > etc > > > does > > > > not exist – instead the vedic months Madhava, Madhu, etc are > > > > important. Therefore the question of Makar sankranti does not > even > > > > arise in the vedic system as he projects it. > > > > > > > > Note 2: Dear Jyotish ji, At the end of your post there is a > > > statement > > > > " Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > > > Over five decades of experience " > > > > At first look it would seem that " Jai Maharaj " is your > > > > name, " Jyotishi " your profession and " Vedic Astrologer " a > > > repetition. > > > > As a friend if " Jai Maharaj " is a praise of god, put it in a > > > separate > > > > line - in your usual postings anywhere; that would help to > avoid > > > > confusion. > > > > Second, since we are all friends just discussing a subject, > apart > > > > from the name, is all this decorations " Vedic Astrologer; Over > > > five > > > > decades of experience " etc necessary? It looks funny. If you > find > > > my > > > > statement personal or objectionable please pardon; I am just > > > making a > > > > friendly observation/statement. > > > > Love, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > , Jyotishi > > > > <jyotish2000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > No, there are no such " Vedic injunctions " that > > > > > " Pongal/Makar Shankranti should be celebrated on > > > > > the shortest day of the year " . > > > > > > > > > > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > > > > Over five decades of experience > > > > > Om Shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > " These siderealists, caring two hoots > > > > > > for the Vedic injunctions, that Pongal/Makar > > > > > > Sankranti should be celebrated on the shortest > > > > > > day of the year, (around December 21 these days) > > > > > . . . " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Description : Astronomical as well as > > > > > > scriptural proofs that " Vedic astrology " is > > > > > > compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and > > > > > > muhurtas on wrong days! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BVB6.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________ > > > _ > > > > ______________ > > > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from > someone > > > > who knows. Answers - Check it out. > > > > > http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Respected Dr.Anand M. Sharan ji, Namaskar! It appears you have missed almost all my posts and files on this topic on this forum. Zodiac has not been divided into twelve neat and equal compartments. In fact it cannot be divided that way at all! The reasons are clear! There has to be some basis for doing so! That means we must be able to group the prominent stars in different divisions with an equal space! But that is impossible! It cannot be divided into 27 or even 28 equal compartments either! Again the reasons are the same! We canot divide the zodiac into twelvle equal segments on the basis of " a year comprises twelve months " since the year does not have 360 days so that each month comprises exactly 30 days! Even on the basis of a seasonal distribution, we cannot do so since no seasons contains exactly 90 days! To sum up, nature itself abhors neat compartments! It was only Babylonian/Chaldean astrologers who divided the zodiac into twelve equal segments, each segment supposed to be of 30 degrees! But then that is sexagesimal system! In other systems, the measures are different! Astrology in Babylon was practised by " astronomers " unlike in India! Here astronomers keep silent whereas astrologers rule the roost! It was only for computational ease that they divided the zodiac into twelve parts, but there also they had a logic! They called those twelve divisions as constellations since the segment named " Aries " had a resemblance to " ram " in those days whereas the group named " Pisces " resembled " fish " etc. This was during the first few centuries around the Xtian era! Those Grecho-Chaldean (Western!) astrologers continued to name those segments by the same nomenclature though those (astrologers " ) portions neither resemble a " ram " nor a " fish " etc. these days! We in India were following a fool proof system till the advent of Maya the mlechha! We never called these segments as " Fish " or " Crab " etc. till then but named the months as Madhu, Madhava etc. on the basis of their " qualities " that were related to that particular season! E.g. the first month of Vasanta Ritu (Spring) was known as Madhu in the Vedic period since that month is really the starting period of " honey " as flowers are in full blossom! The first month of Varsha Ritu was known as Nabhah since during that season one usually keeps on glancing the skies as to when the rains are going to start or stop! That is why we do not find any mention of any Mesha or Vrisha etc. rashis in any of the Vedas in any systematic manner. On the other hand, we find nakshatras like Kritiika, Rohini etc. innumerable number of times! But then those nakshatras had been completely delinked from Madhu, Madhava etc. months. E.g. though the year is supposed to have started with Uttarayana-cum-Tapah-cum-Magha as per the Vedanga Jyotisha, but the nakshatra chakra started then from " Krittikas " since the Vernal Equinox was falling in that division of stars then! We have to bear in mind here that kriitka nakshatra included the prominent stars of that group unlike, again, the present setup of " Vedic astrologers " wherein the Mesharamabha bindu (Vernal Equinox)is supposed to be in Ashvini nakshatra when actually it is in exact comjunction of Uttara- Bhadra-II. We do not find any Mesha etc. Rashis in the Vedanga Jyotisha, yajur Jyotisha or even the Pitamaha and Vasishshta Sidhanta of the Pancha Sidhantika of Varahamihira the charlatan! It is only the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha that refers to Mesha etc. rashis for the first time, and it is nothing but a tnasposition from the Greco-Chaldean nomenclature that he has done! I have explained all these points umpteen number of times in my write-ups and am thus refraining from repeating them here! Now coming to modern asgtronomy: if you take up any ephemeris by any observatory the world over, inlcuding the Indian Astronomical Ephemeris by India Meteorological Department, New Delhi, you will not find any mention of any Mesha etc. rashis there in! They calculate planetary longitudes etc. in Right Ascension frm 0 to 23.999999 hours and Declinations from 0 to the actual number of degrees of that planet or star etc.! These are known as equatorial coordinates. When translated into longitude and latitutde, these become Ecliptic coordinates but no observatory calculates them in terms of Mesha etc. rashis etc. but just from 0 to 359.999999 degrees! Thus these Mesha etc. Rashis have no existence astronomically either, since constellations are of unequal dimensions and cannot be divided into neat compartments! As such, all the Mesha etc. Rashis that are floating around are really unreal, without any basis whatsoever, whether scientific or Vedic or even logical! Hindu astrologers, who call thesmelves " Vedic astrologers " these days are actually acting just like clowns! No astrologer knows wherefrom the zodiac starts! Lahiriwalas say it started from a point opposite to Chitra Star at some point of time in the past i.e. 28 AD! Ramanawalas say that it starts from 390 AD, since the Surya Sidhanta has said " Paushanantam to Bhaganam " . Grahalaghava says something else i.e. Shaka 444 and the Muladharawalas an entirely different thing! All these " ayanamshawallas " have " proofs " in support of their stands! Those proofs are: (i) As per Lahiriwalas, Lahiri Ayanamsha gives the maximum number of correct predictions, (ii) As per Ramana-Wallas, Ramana Ayanamsha gives the maximum number of correct predictions and so on! Muladharawalas have worked a great deal of mathematical hype around their calculations, but they just avoid the main quetion: If Mula is the start of makshatra chakra, then why shouuld that not be taken as the starting point! Why should we have to subtract 240 degrees from that Star to find the " Muladhara Ayanamsha " . You have said that you are an Aryasamji! I am afraid there also you are doing injustice to Swami Dayanada Saraswati since according to his Satyartha Prakasha, Surya Sidhanta must be followed for mathematical calculations! And it appears you have no knowledge of that sidhanta either since as per that sidhanta " Bhanor Makar Sankranteh shanmasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiv syat shanmasa dakshinayanam " i.e. the six months of Uttarayana start from the ingress of the sun in Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinyana from the ingress of the sun into Karkata Rashi! I hope I do not have to repeat here that starting day of " Uttarayana " means Winter Solstice, i.e. the shortest day of the year and that of " Dakshinayana " the Summer Solstice i.e. the longest day of the year! With regards, A K Kaul hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@> wrote: > > Respected Kauljee: > > Obviously, you and every knows that there two sets of Rashis - One > Set ( unreal or fake ) published in the newspapers these days, and > the other ( REAL ) where thetransition of equinox took place in 57 BC > on the Real Aries. > > Regarding the Vedas details - I do not know what is there in the > Vedas because I do not know Sanskrit. I have the Vedas written in > Hindi published by Aryasamajees. I keep that even though I am not an > Arya Samajee because having some thing which I can follow is better > than not having any thing. > > I have not known that the Arya Samajees have false Vedas. So, it must > be correct Vedas. > > If you correctly pin point then I can have look at it. It is a vast > collection. So, you have to pin point. I would say that Swami > Dayanand of Arya Samajees has done a great job of translation so that > ordinary persons like me can look into the Vedas for the authenticity > of information. I believe, this was the intent of Swami Dayanand to > bring the Vedas to ordinary persons. > > The question you have not answered is the relationship between Makar > Samkranti and the Shortest Day these days ? > > Thanks. > > Anand M. Sharan > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Respecdted Dr. Anand M. Sharan ji, > > Namaskar! > > > > <This samkranti is for the sun crossing > > the Makar Rashi ( the real one ).> > > Kindly enlighten me as to how many types of Makar Rashis, for that > > matter all the twelve Rashis, are there? Could they be (i) Real > (ii) > > unreal (iii) surreal (iv) half real and so on? > > Then again are there (i) Vedic (ii) non-vedc and (iii) anti- Vedic > > Rashis as well? > > Further, what does " sun crosing the Makar Rashi (the real one) > > mean? When shold it be celebrated according to you, if not on the > > shortet day of the year, and why? > > Regards, > > A K Kaul > > hinducivilization , " amsharanx " > > <amsharanx@> wrote: > > > > > > I am missing some thing here. This samkranti is for the sun > > crossing > > > the Makar Rashi ( the real one ). Why should it be celebrated on > > the > > > shortest day ? > > > > > > I know that in S. India they perhaps mean the shortest day but why > > > give it the name of Makar then ? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Anand M. Sharan > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , Jyotishi <jyotish2000@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > No, there are no such " Vedic injunctions " that > > > > " Pongal/Makar Shankranti should be celebrated on > > > > the shortest day of the year " . > > > > > > > > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer > > > > Over five decades of experience > > > > Om Shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > " These siderealists, caring two hoots > > > > > for the Vedic injunctions, that Pongal/Makar > > > > > Sankranti should be celebrated on the shortest > > > > > day of the year, (around December 21 these days) > > > > . . . " > > > > > > > > > > > > a_krishen <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Description : Astronomical as well as > > > > > scriptural proofs that " Vedic astrology " is > > > > > compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and > > > > > muhurtas on wrong days! > > > > > > > > > > > > BVB6.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________ > > _______________Ready > > > for the edge of your seat? > > > > Check out tonight's top picks on TV. > > > > http://tv./ > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Respected Dr. Sharan, Namaskar! First of all my apologies for the minsunderstanding of thinking you to be an Aryasmaji! Secondly, you might have observed that I am always late in replying to posts! Not that I am a lazy fellow but I have an open mind and never consider my views sacrosanct. As such, before answering any such " technical " post that is contrary to my views I have always to do a lot of homework which sometimes takes several days, especially if material from ancient sidhantas and a lot of scientific works is involved! Please, therefore, bear with me for the dealy in replying your post regarding " Vikrami Era vis-a-vis precession in the sidhantas " which should actually be the heading of that topic now. I shall try to clarify all the points once for all so that we get on to discussion on some toher topic! I must put on record that it is always a pleasure to discuss issues with scholars like you, irrespective of the fact whether we agree even to disagree or not! It has been pointed out that I post our " correspondence " on this forum to other forums. Please rest assured that your views are being communicated to those forums " as it is " i.e. without any additions/alterations from my side. In fact, I involve other forums in such discussions since I do not find many members of any one forum interested in a boring and arduous topic like " streamlining the Hindu festivals and muhurtas " . As such, I elicit their views and put them across to the concerned members of the concerned forums and those views may even reach you, if those posts muster pass the Moderator! With regards, A K Kaul hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@> wrote: > > > > Respected Kauljee: > First of all, I am NOT Aryasamajee. You must have misunderstood it. > Keeping the Vedas of Aryasamajees does not mean one is Aryasamajee. > > Secondly, let us clear one thing at a time. It is about the Knowledge > of Precession in the Gupta Period ( Start of Siddhantic Period ). > Then, I will debate this issue of Makar Samkranti. > > Let us do first things first. > > Thanks. > > Anand M. Sharan > > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Respected Dr.Anand M. Sharan ji, > > Namaskar! > > It appears you have missed almost all my posts and files on this > > topic on this forum. > > Zodiac has not been divided into twelve neat and equal > > compartments. In fact it cannot be divided that way at all! The --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.