Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to Hindus in 5,661 BCE (Was: To Robert Koch)

July 6, 2007

About 14 years ago I posted the following about

the work of Dr. Padmakar Vishnu Vartak:

Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to Hindus in 5,661

BCE

http://tinyurl.com/yrjy9h

(in the Google archives of USENET newsgroups)

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi

Om Shanti

jjnet2000_in <jjnet2000_in wrote:

>

> Om Datta Guru

>

> Dear Robert,

> Though I had walked off this list long back due

> to the racist remark but

> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

> are a genuine seeker of

> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for

> u :-

> I feel we have a different problem its not about

> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

but do we have the

> Open Mind to understand

> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

> behave differently in

> different yugas (clues to this have been given

> in many old books), so

> should we alter our thinking.

>

> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient

> books so debating if outer

> planets were written in the old books is

> fruitless especially since

> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at

> homes which are yet to

> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are

> gathering dust though i

> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to

> translate it and they are

> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work

> is meant for everyone

> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

> almost finished Bhrigu

> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has

> faced unsurmountable

> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had

> said all works aside and

> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.

>

> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

> this must be taken in

> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

> strength & weakness first

> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

> own mentor in mundane

> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to

> use Outer Planets

> fantastically in his predictions and is till

> date one of the greatest

> predictors of mundane astrology.

>

> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget

> the shloka business see

> what works that is True astrology, so running

> behind shlokas for it is

> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

> whats the use, can anyone

> today interpret it, I have not found a true

> knowledgeable guy in

> sanskrit.

>

> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

> scholars who have zero

> level of scientific mind and do not test any

> principle. thousands of

> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

> that. So should we

> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote

> it. Rishis do not agree to

> the effects of even something as a planet in a

> house, different opinions

> among rishis

>

> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

> was one of the most

> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY

> every event, he used to

> use the Outer Planets.

>

> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who

> was brought up in a

> tradition where books from Lopi Script were

> handed down to him, for 25

> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that

> he was asked to see his

> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he

> takes is in form of

> donation, he does not see the amount given &

> donates it full). I have

> not met an astrologer like him, of all the

> astrologers i have met and

> interacted he is the only guy I know who can

> UNLOCK a chart. He was

> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and

> I have vowed not to take

> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not

> deserve him. I always

> say if people on the lists from india knew

> astrology they would not have

> spare time to write here as flock of people

> would be outside their

> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100

> people and he drives the

> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his

> parampara is of more than 14

> generations, at that time the world did not even

> know of Outer Planets.

> I asked him to share the shlokas from his

> family, he said can u or

> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability

> to decode it, whats the

> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only

> when u see the shloka u

> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique

> only then u would learn

> astrology' - he told me.

>

> I have begged him to come out with a book but he

> refuses, this vidya is

> only misused by egoists so he does not want a

> curse of sharing that

> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

> Brahmin btw, my efforts

> still continue in him bringing at least a basic

> book.

>

> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

> deeper sense, we

> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi

> (Devekerelam) & to a certain

> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g

>

> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to

> walk into america as per

> most senior astrologers in america had seen the

> text of Vasistha Nadi

> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all

> know how fantastic a

> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never

> be born again. People on

> lists will sit here whole life arguing that

> Outer Planets are not

> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to

> test it on 100 charts

> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise

> what we are missing and

> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if

> we know everything that

> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas

> well. If we read first 2

> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

> trying to say (which is

> understandable as it is in clear english) we

> would know that he is not

> going to reveal everything that is astrology at

> all so its useless to

> hide behind his back.

> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen

> to what people say, this

> Uranus works and it works too well'.

>

> 9) People say that the issue is not if

> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah

> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

> takes only 1 yr, can we

> say with all honesty that we understand how

> Jupiter is going to give

> results in a chart or say any other planet in

> jyotish - ofcourse not we

> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

> this is the truth and

> can be found out when we meet masters who had

> some knowledge of this

> science.

>

> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which

> requires Bhakti of the highest

> order and people who are argumentative, have

> anger, have jealousy, want

> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame

> or getting themselves

> shown as scholars will never understand it in

> this or any lifetime. Even

> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the

> above criteria, I guess they

> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and

> not common man, anyone

> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n

> met masters will realise

> this statement as he will often find this answer

> staring right at his

> face.

>

> I appreciate people like u who have tested the

> outer planets in over

> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who

> only talk talk talk or

> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the

> shlokas that we know on

> 100 charts.

>

> To end this,' We do not understand what the

> sages have said so getting

> into arguments or discussions and says Sages

> said this or that is

> Absurdity'

>

> best wishes

> Sunil John

> Mumbai

> P.S: To others pls do not waste ur energy in

> replying to this mail, I do

> not have the time or inclination to read it.

>

,

> Robert Koch <rk

> wrote:

> >

> > Namah Shivaya

> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~

> >

> > Dear Mr. Nair,

> >

> > Thank you for your post as well, which,

> although much less cynical

> > than the responses of Sreenadh-ji, poses some

> good points. I too

> > have argued for years since embarking on an

> ambitious study of

> > Jyotish in 1984 that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto

> have no place within

> > the practice of classical Jyotish. What

> naksatras do they rule? Who

> > is their Devata, etc.? But my original

> stoicism toward these planets

> > has changed due to undeniable experience of

> their

> > affects. Astrologers must bring different

> approaches to the table as

> > to the usefulness of these planets in actual

> astrological practice,

> > rather than endless parrot-like quoting of

> shastras in an effort to

> > dismiss them. There are those whose habit is

> to disable or ignore

> > new approaches based on scriptural and

> classical reference, and then

> > there are those who seek to find out in

> practice if they work or not

> > or are useful. I prefer to take the latter

> route frankly.

> >

> > Let me make my point more clear: I believe in

> the active and

> > enthusiastic efforts to try, research, and

> investigate the various

> > methods of astrology being put forth. If

> there is even an inkling of

> > reference to Vasishta Nadi, or Kapila Nadi as

> to Uranus, Neptune and

> > Pluto, or if stalwarts in the field for whom I

> have great respect (as

> > an example, Sri Chandulal S. Patel who did

> extensive research on the

> > use of outer planets) then I personally will

> not sit on my hands

> > until I have seen their effect in at least 100

> charts. The fact is,

> > that if transit Pluto moves over the lagna or

> Moon of the chart, you

> > will not be able to deny the life-changing

> events and affects that

> > such transits bring forward. This has been my

> observation testing it

> > in hundreds of charts in a period of 23 years.

> There are various

> > progression methods too practiced by both Nadi

> astrologers as well as

> > western astrologers, and these will bring very

> specific events to our

> > awareness referencing these outer planets as

> well.

> >

> > However, you are right, if Sri K.N. Rao

> challenged some Marathi

> > astrologers to demonstrate their researches on

> outer planets, then

> > the latter should have come forward to prove

> their point.

> >

> > Anyway, so how will we use our classical

> knowledge then? To dismiss

> > or negate, or to rejuvenate the energy of

> discovery by trial and

> > error, research and investigation? It is all

> up to the disposition

> > of the individual astrologer and how he/she

> sees the learning and

> > practice of this great science. If I think

> for a moment that my

> > technique or knowledge is sufficient, and all

> the while I have not

> > practically tested even what I do know on a

> multiplicity of charts,

> > then Jyotish becomes a dry, intellectual hobby

> at best. Then it only

> > serves to reinforce the ego of the astrologer,

> rather than becoming a

> > vehicle to uplift and enlighten others. If,

> however, the astrologer

> > continually tries, tests, and researches, then

> he keeps the science

> > alive and you may be surprised how many

> secrets are revealed to a

> > person with that attitude toward his practice.

> >

> > With best regards, and no disrespect intended

> toward anyone -

> >

> > Robert

> >

> > At 01:48 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:

> >

> > >Hare rama krishna,

> > >

> > >dear robertji,

> > >

> > > Thanks for your post.

> > >

> > >But as seekers of truth and holders of light

> called jyothisha

> > >should we go by some stray references which

> quoted by some one in

> > >some group or we shud look for its textual

> reference.in tamil or

> > >sanskrit ,as most of naadis in this laungage

> and quote the page

> > >--line of concerned books.

> > >

> > >my observations.

> > >

> > >1)this planets stays more years and transit

> in ones life is

> > >negligible as almost 100 or more years it

> stays in one rasi

> > >

> > > 2) There is no graha --khetra allotted to

> this planets by vedic

> > > seers,like ucha ,swa or neecha .

> > >

> > >3)There is no dasa periods as its important

> in delination of results.

> > >

> > >4) their nature ,karaka and frndly and enmy

> planets r not identified

> > >again important in vedic style of delination

> of results.

> > >

> > >And i read --i dont hav text--in varaha hora

> --varahmihira describes

> > >--there are 100s crores of planets are there

> but we take only 7

> > >planets and 2 chaya grahs ( its some thing

> like grhanam shatha kodi

> > >---- like this --may be sree nath can help me

> ),as only this planets

> > >can influence in ecliptical path of earth .

> > >

> > >Also one naadi astrology people under the

> team of sri Taneja of

> > >delhi uses this planets as i was told he was

> taught this method by

> > >one J C LUTRA ,again i dont know whats their

> sourse,and i could not

> > >test it as they use differrent ayanamsha and

> charges 15000/- or some

> > >for software ,so i leav it

> > >

> > >Once in one astro conference held and chaired

> by BV raman ,sri KN

> > >rao challenged all marathi astrologers to

> prove those who uses extra

> > >sataurnian planets ,all shied away ,most of

> them were famous

> astrologers

> > >

> > >i heard in mahabharath vedvyas mentiones

> indra varuna,rudra dring

> > >the time of war --yes i dont hav that part

> with me now

> > >

> > >But its more mundane as a bloody distructive

> war.

> > >

> > >pls produce textual support.

> > >

> > >regrds sunil nair

> > >

> > >om shreem mahalaxmai namah.

> > >

> > >--- In

> , Robert

> Koch rk@

> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste Prafulla,

> > > >

> > > > At 08:56 AM 7/4/2007, you wrote:

> > > > >Dear Sir

> > > > >

> > > > >Harshal, Neptune etc are referred in one

> of the nadi..I do not

> > > > >remember..one of the jyotish forum member

> shared that on another

> > > > >thread in another forum.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, according to my sources also, Uranus,

> Neptune, and Pluto are

> > > > taught in Vasishta and Kapila Nadis.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > Robert Koch

> > > >

> > > > >regards / Prafulla Gang

> > > > >http://www.prafulla.net

> > > > >

> > > > > " The right to be heard does not

> automatically include the right

> to

> > > > >be taken seriously. "

> > > >

>

>************************************************

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > navagraha@

> > > > > > ! Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:02:47 -0400

> > > > > > To:

>

> > > > > > Re:

> Re: Importance of

> Bhava Chart

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste Sreenadh,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There are astrologers in Maharashatra

> that give absolutely

> brilliant

> > > > > > predictions. They use Hershel, Neptune

> etc. Rarely use dashas.

> I agree

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > you that Hershel and neptune have no

> classical standing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I personally do not think hershel and

> neptune don't need to be

> used to

> > > > > > give

> > > > > > predictions. Quest for Pramana in

> classics is the way to go.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On 7/4/07, Sreenadh sreesog@ wrote:

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >> Dear Prafulla ji,

> > > > > >> I don't know. That is not my domai! n

> as well. I am after

> ancient

> > > > > >> Indian astrology - in a continuing

> search for the originals.

> That is

> > > > > >> the only thing I can say.

> > > > > >> Love,

> > > > > >> Sreenadh

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >> --- In

> > > > > >>

> > > > >

> > >

>

<%40yaho\

> ogroups.com>,

> > > > > >> Prafulla Gang

> > > > > >> jyotish@ wrote:

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Dear Sreenadh ji

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> I am not familiar with history of

> jyotish and sanskrit as

> well. But

> > > > > >> In my observation - most

> traditionalist in northern India use

> bhava

> > > > > >> chalit chart for quite accurate

> predictions. If it does not

> make

> > > > > >> sense, then how come predictions are

> so accurate?

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> regards / Prafulla Gang

> > > > > >>> http://www.prafulla.net

> > > > > & !

> > >gt;>>

> > > > > >>> " The right to be heard does not

> automatically include the

> right to

> > > > > >> be taken seriously. "

> > > > > >>>

> ************************************************

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> sreesog@

> > > > > >>>> Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:59:46

> -0000

> > > > > >>>> To:

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > >

> > >

>

<%40yaho\

> ogroups.com>

> > > > > >>>>

> Re: Importance of Bhava

> Chart

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> Dear Kannan ji,

> > > > > >>>> There is " no seperate bhava chart " ;

> the Rasi chart itself

> is the

> > > > > >>>> bhava chart. Considering bhava

> chart as a seperate entity

> originated

> > > > ! > >>>> after the period of Sripati of

> 10th centuary AD. It is

> misleading

> > > > > >>>> concept similar to considering

> Navamsa as a seperate chart

> not

> > > > > >>>> supported by ancient sages.

> > > > > >>>> You can find more info regarding

> the same from the

> following file

> > > > > >>>> present in the file section of the

> group.

> > > > > >>>> URL:

> > > > > >>>>

> > >

>

Sreenadh/

> > > > > >>>> Signs and Houses.pdf

> > > > > >>>> As you could see there is no point

> in discussing

> non-existent things

> > > > > >>>> which are not supported by the

> sages; as of me I trying to

> > > understand

> > > > > >>>> what they taught, as per their own

> words. [And therefore

> any

> > > > > >>>> discussion on Bhava, considering it

> not the same as sign,

> is not my

> > > > > >>>> domain]

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > & !

> > >gt; >>>> ==>

> > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important

> planet for Scorpio Lagna

> placed in

> > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and

> in Dhanu in Bhava (own

> sign).

> > > > > >>>> <==

> > > > > >>>> As you could see, this is absurd.

> For Scorpio Lagna, Ju

> in

> > > > > >>>> Capricorn (Makara) rasi, is in 3rd

> house (bhava), and is

> > > in Capricorn

> > > > > >>>> sign. (Sign and house being the

> same). This is the ancient

> concept;

> > > > > >>>> and the result derivation would be

> as per that.

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> ==>

> > > > > >>>>> In continuation to our earlier

> discussions on

> > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example

> Jupiter is Retrograde and

> placed in

> > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the

> effect of

> debilitation/own sign

> > > > ! > >>>>> in this case.

> > > > > >>>> <==

> > > > > >>>> That is an entirely different

> subject (i.e. how to

> interpret Sign

> > > > > >>>> and Navamsa results) and would

> discussed later.

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> ==>

> > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am

> eagerly waiting for your next

> file on

> > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.

> > > > > >>>> <==

> > > > > >>>> Yes, this is one thing in the

> urgent task list. I will

> try to

> > > > > >>>> complete it by next Saturday or

> prior to that.

> > > > > >>>> Love,

> > > > > >>>> Sreenadh

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> --- In

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > >

> > >

>

<%40yaho\

> ogroups.com>,

> > > > > >> " kankan_73 "

> > > > > >>> & g!

> > >t; <kankan_73@> wrote:

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>> Dear Sreenadh ji,

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>> Please tell me something on the

> importance of Bhava Chart.

> Do this

> > > > > >>>>> chart has importance like Navamsa.

> I have seen mentioning

> of bhava

> > > > > >>>>> position (if different from Rasi

> Chart) while mentioning

> Planetary

> > > > > >>>>> results in old Jathakams written

> by Kerala astrologers.

> What is

> > > > > >>>> the

> > > > > >>>>> result if an important planet is

> posited in different

> signs in Rasi

> > > > > >>>>> and Bhava.

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important

> planet for Scorpio Lagna

> placed in

> > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and

> in Dhanu in Bhava (own

> sign).

> > > > > >>> & g!

> > >t; How

> > > > > >>>>> do we analyze this. In contin

> uation to our earlier

> discussions on

> > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example

> Jupiter is Retrograde and

> placed in

> > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the

> effect of

> debilitation/own sign

> > > > > >>>> in

> > > > > >>>>> this case.

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>> I request you to give your views

> on Bhava vs Rasi

> > > > > >>>>> differences/effects in general and

> also your view on the

> above

> > > > > >>>>> example.

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am

> eagerly waiting for your next

> file on

> > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>> Thanks & regards,

> > > > > >>>>> Kannan

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>> & !

> > >gt;

> > > > > >>>>

July 6, 2007

OM Datta Guru

I find over the years there are some constant topics which go in an

endless cycle of repetitive non conclusive discussion resulting only in

hatred as Jyotishis are a fixed bunch I guess.

Nothing much comes out of this unfortunately as those who are Instant

Critics would say

a) The dating is wrong

b) Sanskrit is wrongly interpreted.

c) Work of someones imagination

d) It works on mundane matters but not on humans, but these people would

not use it for mundane predictions

e) If our sages knew it then why did they not write about it (I think

Sages were not on our payroll that they had to write everything they

knew)

Still Thanks for posting .

Sunil John

Mumbai

, Jyotishi

<jyotish2000 wrote:

>

> About 14 years ago I posted the following about

> the work of Dr. Padmakar Vishnu Vartak:

>

> Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to Hindus in 5,661

> BCE

>

> http://tinyurl.com/yrjy9h

>

> (in the Google archives of USENET newsgroups)

>

> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi

> Om Shanti

>

> jjnet2000_in jjnet2000_in wrote:

> >

> > Om Datta Guru

> >

> > Dear Robert,

> > Though I had walked off this list long back due

> > to the racist remark but

> > was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

> > are a genuine seeker of

> > this shastra. This mail is not intended just for

> > u :-

> > I feel we have a different problem its not about

> > whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

> but do we have the

> > Open Mind to understand

> > jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

> > behave differently in

> > different yugas (clues to this have been given

> > in many old books), so

> > should we alter our thinking.

> >

> > 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient

> > books so debating if outer

> > planets were written in the old books is

> > fruitless especially since

> > there are hundreds of books in libraries and at

> > homes which are yet to

> > be translated. Even the few nadis with me are

> > gathering dust though i

> > have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to

> > translate it and they are

> > unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work

> > is meant for everyone

> > e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

> > almost finished Bhrigu

> > Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has

> > faced unsurmountable

> > problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had

> > said all works aside and

> > Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.

> >

> > 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

> > this must be taken in

> > another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

> > strength & weakness first

> > (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

> > own mentor in mundane

> > astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to

> > use Outer Planets

> > fantastically in his predictions and is till

> > date one of the greatest

> > predictors of mundane astrology.

> >

> > 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget

> > the shloka business see

> > what works that is True astrology, so running

> > behind shlokas for it is

> > useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

> > whats the use, can anyone

> > today interpret it, I have not found a true

> > knowledgeable guy in

> > sanskrit.

> >

> > 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

> > scholars who have zero

> > level of scientific mind and do not test any

> > principle. thousands of

> > shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

> > that. So should we

> > discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote

> > it. Rishis do not agree to

> > the effects of even something as a planet in a

> > house, different opinions

> > among rishis

> >

> > 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

> > was one of the most

> > fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY

> > every event, he used to

> > use the Outer Planets.

> >

> > 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who

> > was brought up in a

> > tradition where books from Lopi Script were

> > handed down to him, for 25

> > yrs he was taught astrology and only after that

> > he was asked to see his

> > first chart & practice jyotish (the money he

> > takes is in form of

> > donation, he does not see the amount given &

> > donates it full). I have

> > not met an astrologer like him, of all the

> > astrologers i have met and

> > interacted he is the only guy I know who can

> > UNLOCK a chart. He was

> > introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and

> > I have vowed not to take

> > current breed of astrologers to him, they do not

> > deserve him. I always

> > say if people on the lists from india knew

> > astrology they would not have

> > spare time to write here as flock of people

> > would be outside their

> > house. This man has a daily visitation of 100

> > people and he drives the

> > rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his

> > parampara is of more than 14

> > generations, at that time the world did not even

> > know of Outer Planets.

> > I asked him to share the shlokas from his

> > family, he said can u or

> > anyone read them, then do u all have the ability

> > to decode it, whats the

> > use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only

> > when u see the shloka u

> > would believe, forget shlokas test the technique

> > only then u would learn

> > astrology' - he told me.

> >

> > I have begged him to come out with a book but he

> > refuses, this vidya is

> > only misused by egoists so he does not want a

> > curse of sharing that

> > knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

> > Brahmin btw, my efforts

> > still continue in him bringing at least a basic

> > book.

> >

> > 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

> > deeper sense, we

> > realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi

> > (Devekerelam) & to a certain

> > extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g

> >

> > 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to

> > walk into america as per

> > most senior astrologers in america had seen the

> > text of Vasistha Nadi

> > wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all

> > know how fantastic a

> > predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never

> > be born again. People on

> > lists will sit here whole life arguing that

> > Outer Planets are not

> > mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to

> > test it on 100 charts

> > with an open mind. Only when we test we realise

> > what we are missing and

> > alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if

> > we know everything that

> > he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas

> > well. If we read first 2

> > chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

> > trying to say (which is

> > understandable as it is in clear english) we

> > would know that he is not

> > going to reveal everything that is astrology at

> > all so its useless to

> > hide behind his back.

> > Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen

> > to what people say, this

> > Uranus works and it works too well'.

> >

> > 9) People say that the issue is not if

> > outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah

> > blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

> > takes only 1 yr, can we

> > say with all honesty that we understand how

> > Jupiter is going to give

> > results in a chart or say any other planet in

> > jyotish - ofcourse not we

> > do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

> > this is the truth and

> > can be found out when we meet masters who had

> > some knowledge of this

> > science.

> >

> > 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which

> > requires Bhakti of the highest

> > order and people who are argumentative, have

> > anger, have jealousy, want

> > to put others down, have ego, have need for fame

> > or getting themselves

> > shown as scholars will never understand it in

> > this or any lifetime. Even

> > Parasara and other sages have mentioned the

> > above criteria, I guess they

> > were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and

> > not common man, anyone

> > who has travelled in search of true jyotish n

> > met masters will realise

> > this statement as he will often find this answer

> > staring right at his

> > face.

> >

> > I appreciate people like u who have tested the

> > outer planets in over

> > hundred charts, u are far better off than us who

> > only talk talk talk or

> > hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the

> > shlokas that we know on

> > 100 charts.

> >

> > To end this,' We do not understand what the

> > sages have said so getting

> > into arguments or discussions and says Sages

> > said this or that is

> > Absurdity'

> >

> > best wishes

> > Sunil John

> > Mumbai

> > P.S: To others pls do not waste ur energy in

> > replying to this mail, I do

> > not have the time or inclination to read it.

> >

> > ,

> > Robert Koch rk@

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Namah Shivaya

> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~

> > >

> > > Dear Mr. Nair,

> > >

> > > Thank you for your post as well, which,

> > although much less cynical

> > > than the responses of Sreenadh-ji, poses some

> > good points. I too

> > > have argued for years since embarking on an

> > ambitious study of

> > > Jyotish in 1984 that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto

> > have no place within

> > > the practice of classical Jyotish. What

> > naksatras do they rule? Who

> > > is their Devata, etc.? But my original

> > stoicism toward these planets

> > > has changed due to undeniable experience of

> > their

> > > affects. Astrologers must bring different

> > approaches to the table as

> > > to the usefulness of these planets in actual

> > astrological practice,

> > > rather than endless parrot-like quoting of

> > shastras in an effort to

> > > dismiss them. There are those whose habit is

> > to disable or ignore

> > > new approaches based on scriptural and

> > classical reference, and then

> > > there are those who seek to find out in

> > practice if they work or not

> > > or are useful. I prefer to take the latter

> > route frankly.

> > >

> > > Let me make my point more clear: I believe in

> > the active and

> > > enthusiastic efforts to try, research, and

> > investigate the various

> > > methods of astrology being put forth. If

> > there is even an inkling of

> > > reference to Vasishta Nadi, or Kapila Nadi as

> > to Uranus, Neptune and

> > > Pluto, or if stalwarts in the field for whom I

> > have great respect (as

> > > an example, Sri Chandulal S. Patel who did

> > extensive research on the

> > > use of outer planets) then I personally will

> > not sit on my hands

> > > until I have seen their effect in at least 100

> > charts. The fact is,

> > > that if transit Pluto moves over the lagna or

> > Moon of the chart, you

> > > will not be able to deny the life-changing

> > events and affects that

> > > such transits bring forward. This has been my

> > observation testing it

> > > in hundreds of charts in a period of 23 years.

> > There are various

> > > progression methods too practiced by both Nadi

> > astrologers as well as

> > > western astrologers, and these will bring very

> > specific events to our

> > > awareness referencing these outer planets as

> > well.

> > >

> > > However, you are right, if Sri K.N. Rao

> > challenged some Marathi

> > > astrologers to demonstrate their researches on

> > outer planets, then

> > > the latter should have come forward to prove

> > their point.

> > >

> > > Anyway, so how will we use our classical

> > knowledge then? To dismiss

> > > or negate, or to rejuvenate the energy of

> > discovery by trial and

> > > error, research and investigation? It is all

> > up to the disposition

> > > of the individual astrologer and how he/she

> > sees the learning and

> > > practice of this great science. If I think

> > for a moment that my

> > > technique or knowledge is sufficient, and all

> > the while I have not

> > > practically tested even what I do know on a

> > multiplicity of charts,

> > > then Jyotish becomes a dry, intellectual hobby

> > at best. Then it only

> > > serves to reinforce the ego of the astrologer,

> > rather than becoming a

> > > vehicle to uplift and enlighten others. If,

> > however, the astrologer

> > > continually tries, tests, and researches, then

> > he keeps the science

> > > alive and you may be surprised how many

> > secrets are revealed to a

> > > person with that attitude toward his practice.

> > >

> > > With best regards, and no disrespect intended

> > toward anyone -

> > >

> > > Robert

> > >

> > > At 01:48 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:

> > >

> > > >Hare rama krishna,

> > > >

> > > >dear robertji,

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your post.

> > > >

> > > >But as seekers of truth and holders of light

> > called jyothisha

> > > >should we go by some stray references which

> > quoted by some one in

> > > >some group or we shud look for its textual

> > reference.in tamil or

> > > >sanskrit ,as most of naadis in this laungage

> > and quote the page

> > > >--line of concerned books.

> > > >

> > > >my observations.

> > > >

> > > >1)this planets stays more years and transit

> > in ones life is

> > > >negligible as almost 100 or more years it

> > stays in one rasi

> > > >

> > > > 2) There is no graha --khetra allotted to

> > this planets by vedic

> > > > seers,like ucha ,swa or neecha .

> > > >

> > > >3)There is no dasa periods as its important

> > in delination of results.

> > > >

> > > >4) their nature ,karaka and frndly and enmy

> > planets r not identified

> > > >again important in vedic style of delination

> > of results.

> > > >

> > > >And i read --i dont hav text--in varaha hora

> > --varahmihira describes

> > > >--there are 100s crores of planets are there

> > but we take only 7

> > > >planets and 2 chaya grahs ( its some thing

> > like grhanam shatha kodi

> > > >---- like this --may be sree nath can help me

> > ),as only this planets

> > > >can influence in ecliptical path of earth .

> > > >

> > > >Also one naadi astrology people under the

> > team of sri Taneja of

> > > >delhi uses this planets as i was told he was

> > taught this method by

> > > >one J C LUTRA ,again i dont know whats their

> > sourse,and i could not

> > > >test it as they use differrent ayanamsha and

> > charges 15000/- or some

> > > >for software ,so i leav it

> > > >

> > > >Once in one astro conference held and chaired

> > by BV raman ,sri KN

> > > >rao challenged all marathi astrologers to

> > prove those who uses extra

> > > >sataurnian planets ,all shied away ,most of

> > them were famous

> > astrologers

> > > >

> > > >i heard in mahabharath vedvyas mentiones

> > indra varuna,rudra dring

> > > >the time of war --yes i dont hav that part

> > with me now

> > > >

> > > >But its more mundane as a bloody distructive

> > war.

> > > >

> > > >pls produce textual support.

> > > >

> > > >regrds sunil nair

> > > >

> > > >om shreem mahalaxmai namah.

> > > >

> > > >--- In

> > , Robert

> > Koch rk@

> > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste Prafulla,

> > > > >

> > > > > At 08:56 AM 7/4/2007, you wrote:

> > > > > >Dear Sir

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Harshal, Neptune etc are referred in one

> > of the nadi..I do not

> > > > > >remember..one of the jyotish forum member

> > shared that on another

> > > > > >thread in another forum.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, according to my sources also, Uranus,

> > Neptune, and Pluto are

> > > > > taught in Vasishta and Kapila Nadis.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Robert Koch

> > > > >

> > > > > >regards / Prafulla Gang

> > > > > >http://www.prafulla.net

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " The right to be heard does not

> > automatically include the right

> > to

> > > > > >be taken seriously. "

> > > > >

> >

> >************************************************

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > navagraha@

> > > > > > > ! Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:02:47 -0400

> > > > > > > To:

> >

> > > > > > > Re:

> > Re: Importance of

> > Bhava Chart

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste Sreenadh,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There are astrologers in Maharashatra

> > that give absolutely

> > brilliant

> > > > > > > predictions. They use Hershel, Neptune

> > etc. Rarely use dashas.

> > I agree

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > you that Hershel and neptune have no

> > classical standing.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I personally do not think hershel and

> > neptune don't need to be

> > used to

> > > > > > > give

> > > > > > > predictions. Quest for Pramana in

> > classics is the way to go.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 7/4/07, Sreenadh sreesog@ wrote:

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> Dear Prafulla ji,

> > > > > > >> I don't know. That is not my domai! n

> > as well. I am after

> > ancient

> > > > > > >> Indian astrology - in a continuing

> > search for the originals.

> > That is

> > > > > > >> the only thing I can say.

> > > > > > >> Love,

> > > > > > >> Sreenadh

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> --- In

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

>

<%40yaho\

\

> > ogroups.com>,

> > > > > > >> Prafulla Gang

> > > > > > >> jyotish@ wrote:

> > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > >>> Dear Sreenadh ji

> > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > >>> I am not familiar with history of

> > jyotish and sanskrit as

> > well. But

> > > > > > >> In my observation - most

> > traditionalist in northern India use

> > bhava

> > > > > > >> chalit chart for quite accurate

> > predictions. If it does not

> > make

> > > > > > >> sense, then how come predictions are

> > so accurate?

> > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > >>> regards / Prafulla Gang

> > > > > > >>> http://www.prafulla.net

> > > > > > & !

> > > >gt;>>

> > > > > > >>> " The right to be heard does not

> > automatically include the

> > right to

> > > > > > >> be taken seriously. "

> > > > > > >>>

> > ************************************************

> > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > > >>>> sreesog@

> > > > > > >>>> Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:59:46

> > -0000

> > > > > > >>>> To:

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

>

<%40yaho\

\

> > ogroups.com>

> > > > > > >>>>

> > Re: Importance of Bhava

> > Chart

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > > >>>> Dear Kannan ji,

> > > > > > >>>> There is " no seperate bhava chart " ;

> > the Rasi chart itself

> > is the

> > > > > > >>>> bhava chart. Considering bhava

> > chart as a seperate entity

> > originated

> > > > > ! > >>>> after the period of Sripati of

> > 10th centuary AD. It is

> > misleading

> > > > > > >>>> concept similar to considering

> > Navamsa as a seperate chart

> > not

> > > > > > >>>> supported by ancient sages.

> > > > > > >>>> You can find more info regarding

> > the same from the

> > following file

> > > > > > >>>> present in the file section of the

> > group.

> > > > > > >>>> URL:

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > >

> >

> Sreenadh/

> > > > > > >>>> Signs and Houses.pdf

> > > > > > >>>> As you could see there is no point

> > in discussing

> > non-existent things

> > > > > > >>>> which are not supported by the

> > sages; as of me I trying to

> > > > understand

> > > > > > >>>> what they taught, as per their own

> > words. [And therefore

> > any

> > > > > > >>>> discussion on Bhava, considering it

> > not the same as sign,

> > is not my

> > > > > > >>>> domain]

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > & !

> > > >gt; >>>> ==>

> > > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important

> > planet for Scorpio Lagna

> > placed in

> > > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and

> > in Dhanu in Bhava (own

> > sign).

> > > > > > >>>> <==

> > > > > > >>>> As you could see, this is absurd.

> > For Scorpio Lagna, Ju

> > in

> > > > > > >>>> Capricorn (Makara) rasi, is in 3rd

> > house (bhava), and is

> > > > in Capricorn

> > > > > > >>>> sign. (Sign and house being the

> > same). This is the ancient

> > concept;

> > > > > > >>>> and the result derivation would be

> > as per that.

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > > >>>> ==>

> > > > > > >>>>> In continuation to our earlier

> > discussions on

> > > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example

> > Jupiter is Retrograde and

> > placed in

> > > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the

> > effect of

> > debilitation/own sign

> > > > > ! > >>>>> in this case.

> > > > > > >>>> <==

> > > > > > >>>> That is an entirely different

> > subject (i.e. how to

> > interpret Sign

> > > > > > >>>> and Navamsa results) and would

> > discussed later.

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > > >>>> ==>

> > > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am

> > eagerly waiting for your next

> > file on

> > > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.

> > > > > > >>>> <==

> > > > > > >>>> Yes, this is one thing in the

> > urgent task list. I will

> > try to

> > > > > > >>>> complete it by next Saturday or

> > prior to that.

> > > > > > >>>> Love,

> > > > > > >>>> Sreenadh

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > > >>>> --- In

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

>

<%40yaho\

\

> > ogroups.com>,

> > > > > > >> " kankan_73 "

> > > > > > >>> & g!

> > > >t; <kankan_73@> wrote:

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>> Dear Sreenadh ji,

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>> Please tell me something on the

> > importance of Bhava Chart.

> > Do this

> > > > > > >>>>> chart has importance like Navamsa.

> > I have seen mentioning

> > of bhava

> > > > > > >>>>> position (if different from Rasi

> > Chart) while mentioning

> > Planetary

> > > > > > >>>>> results in old Jathakams written

> > by Kerala astrologers.

> > What is

> > > > > > >>>> the

> > > > > > >>>>> result if an important planet is

> > posited in different

> > signs in Rasi

> > > > > > >>>>> and Bhava.

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important

> > planet for Scorpio Lagna

> > placed in

> > > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and

> > in Dhanu in Bhava (own

> > sign).

> > > > > > >>> & g!

> > > >t; How

> > > > > > >>>>> do we analyze this. In contin

> > uation to our earlier

> > discussions on

> > > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example

> > Jupiter is Retrograde and

> > placed in

> > > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the

> > effect of

> > debilitation/own sign

> > > > > > >>>> in

> > > > > > >>>>> this case.

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>> I request you to give your views

> > on Bhava vs Rasi

> > > > > > >>>>> differences/effects in general and

> > also your view on the

> > above

> > > > > > >>>>> example.

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am

> > eagerly waiting for your next

> > file on

> > > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>> Thanks & regards,

> > > > > > >>>>> Kannan

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >>>>

> > > > > > >>> & !

> > > >gt;

> > > > > > >>>>

July 6, 2007

Dear Sunil John ji

I must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please read my answer:

>>

>> Dear Robert,

>> Though I had walked off this list long back due

>> to the racist remark but

>> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

>> are a genuine seeker of

>> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for

>> u :-

>> I feel we have a different problem its not about

>> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

> but do we have the

>> Open Mind to understand

>> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

>> behave differently in

>> different yugas (clues to this have been given

>> in many old books), so

>> should we alter our thinking.

>>

>> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient

>> books so debating if outer

>> planets were written in the old books is

>> fruitless especially since

>> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at

>> homes which are yet to

>> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are

>> gathering dust though i

>> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to

>> translate it and they are

>> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work

>> is meant for everyone

>> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

>> almost finished Bhrigu

>> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has

>> faced unsurmountable

>> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had

>> said all works aside and

>> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.

>>

>> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

>> this must be taken in

>> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

>> strength & weakness first

>> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

>> own mentor in mundane

>> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to

>> use Outer Planets

>> fantastically in his predictions and is till

>> date one of the greatest

>> predictors of mundane astrology.

>>

[Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from the

panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang well.

>> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget

>> the shloka business see

>> what works that is True astrology, so running

>> behind shlokas for it is

>> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

>> whats the use, can anyone

>> today interpret it, I have not found a true

>> knowledgeable guy in

>> sanskrit.

[Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As you have

rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be taken differently in

current age. Not all sages even agreed for any interpretation - so by referring

shloka - we may reach to the same point - where we start from (of course at some

stage of journey). The best proof will always be its application. If it works -

we must induct in our reading model, else we must ignore it.

>>

>> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

>> scholars who have zero

>> level of scientific mind and do not test any

>> principle. thousands of

>> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

>> that. So should we

>> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote

>> it. Rishis do not agree to

>> the effects of even something as a planet in a

>> house, different opinions

>> among rishis

>>

[Prafulla] very well expressed

>> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

>> was one of the most

>> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY

>> every event, he used to

>> use the Outer Planets.

>>

[Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many years back that

even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was also using them

brilliantly.

>> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who

>> was brought up in a

>> tradition where books from Lopi Script were

>> handed down to him, for 25

>> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that

>> he was asked to see his

>> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he

>> takes is in form of

>> donation, he does not see the amount given &

>> donates it full). I have

>> not met an astrologer like him, of all the

>> astrologers i have met and

>> interacted he is the only guy I know who can

>> UNLOCK a chart. He was

>> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and

>> I have vowed not to take

>> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not

>> deserve him. I always

>> say if people on the lists from india knew

>> astrology they would not have

>> spare time to write here as flock of people

>> would be outside their

>> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100

>> people and he drives the

>> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his

>> parampara is of more than 14

>> generations, at that time the world did not even

>> know of Outer Planets.

>> I asked him to share the shlokas from his

>> family, he said can u or

>> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability

>> to decode it, whats the

>> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only

>> when u see the shloka u

>> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique

>> only then u would learn

>> astrology' - he told me.

>>

[Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern students including

me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must not mess with it.

Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues. many of these

traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for variety of reasons,

including the polluted generation.

>> I have begged him to come out with a book but he

>> refuses, this vidya is

>> only misused by egoists so he does not want a

>> curse of sharing that

>> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

>> Brahmin btw, my efforts

>> still continue in him bringing at least a basic

>> book.

[Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will be blessing for

the jyotish students.

>>

>> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

>> deeper sense, we

>> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi

>> (Devekerelam) & to a certain

>> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g

>>

[Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict consistently from

BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such literature, which does not

deliver in current form.

>> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to

>> walk into america as per

>> most senior astrologers in america had seen the

>> text of Vasistha Nadi

>> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all

>> know how fantastic a

>> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never

>> be born again. People on

>> lists will sit here whole life arguing that

>> Outer Planets are not

>> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to

>> test it on 100 charts

>> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise

>> what we are missing and

>> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if

>> we know everything that

>> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas

>> well. If we read first 2

>> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

>> trying to say (which is

>> understandable as it is in clear english) we

>> would know that he is not

>> going to reveal everything that is astrology at

>> all so its useless to

>> hide behind his back.

>> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen

>> to what people say, this

>> Uranus works and it works too well'.

>>

[Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an experienced astrologer

!!

>> 9) People say that the issue is not if

>> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah

>> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

>> takes only 1 yr, can we

>> say with all honesty that we understand how

>> Jupiter is going to give

>> results in a chart or say any other planet in

>> jyotish - ofcourse not we

>> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

>> this is the truth and

>> can be found out when we meet masters who had

>> some knowledge of this

>> science.

>>

[Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets can clarify the

application through case studies.

>> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which

>> requires Bhakti of the highest

>> order and people who are argumentative, have

>> anger, have jealousy, want

>> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame

>> or getting themselves

>> shown as scholars will never understand it in

>> this or any lifetime. Even

>> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the

>> above criteria, I guess they

>> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and

>> not common man, anyone

>> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n

>> met masters will realise

>> this statement as he will often find this answer

>> staring right at his

>> face.

>>

[Prafulla] very well said.

>> I appreciate people like u who have tested the

>> outer planets in over

>> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who

>> only talk talk talk or

>> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the

>> shlokas that we know on

>> 100 charts.

>>

>> To end this,' We do not understand what the

>> sages have said so getting

>> into arguments or discussions and says Sages

>> said this or that is

>> Absurdity'

>>

[Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit) barriers. This

shloka business is ruining jyotish.

regards / Prafulla

July 6, 2007

Dear Jai Maharaj ji

Very interesting post.

But how many astrologers would be able to come out of shloka business and read with open mind !!

Though, I may not know the exact techniques of their interpretation, but I have also observed few good astrologers using outer planets very well. and if they are able to use - may imply the signficance. Just because I / others do not know its application - can not be ground for outright rejection.

regards / Prafulla Ganghttp://www.prafulla.net"Men who never get carried away should be."************************************************

jyotish2000Sent: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 01:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to Hindus in 5,661 BCE (Was: To Robert Koch)

About 14 years ago I posted the following aboutthe work of Dr. Padmakar Vishnu Vartak: Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to Hindus in 5,661BCE http://tinyurl.com/yrjy9h (in the Google archives of USENET newsgroups)Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi Om Shanti jjnet2000_in <jjnet2000_in wrote:> > Om Datta Guru> > Dear Robert,> Though I had walked off this list long back due> to the racist remark but> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u> are a genuine seeker of> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for> u :-> I feel we have a different problem its not about> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages but do we have the> Open Mind to understand> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets> behave differently in> different yugas (clues to this have been given> in many old books), so> should we alter our thinking.> > 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient> books so debating if outer> planets were written in the old books is> fruitless especially since> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at> homes which are yet to> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are> gathering dust though i> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to> translate it and they are> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work> is meant for everyone> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had> almost finished Bhrigu> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has> faced unsurmountable> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had> said all works aside and> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.> > 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers> this must be taken in> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs> strength & weakness first> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his> own mentor in mundane> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to> use Outer Planets> fantastically in his predictions and is till> date one of the greatest> predictors of mundane astrology.> > 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget> the shloka business see> what works that is True astrology, so running> behind shlokas for it is> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented> whats the use, can anyone> today interpret it, I have not found a true> knowledgeable guy in> sanskrit.> > 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed> scholars who have zero> level of scientific mind and do not test any> principle. thousands of> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to> that. So should we> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote> it. Rishis do not agree to> the effects of even something as a planet in a> house, different opinions> among rishis> > 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says> was one of the most> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY> every event, he used to> use the Outer Planets.> > 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who> was brought up in a> tradition where books from Lopi Script were> handed down to him, for 25> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that> he was asked to see his> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he> takes is in form of> donation, he does not see the amount given & > donates it full). I have> not met an astrologer like him, of all the> astrologers i have met and> interacted he is the only guy I know who can> UNLOCK a chart. He was> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and> I have vowed not to take> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not> deserve him. I always> say if people on the lists from india knew> astrology they would not have> spare time to write here as flock of people> would be outside their> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100> people and he drives the> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his> parampara is of more than 14> generations, at that time the world did not even> know of Outer Planets.> I asked him to share the shlokas from his> family, he said can u or> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability> to decode it, whats the> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only> when u see the shloka u> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique> only then u would learn> astrology' - he told me.> > I have begged him to come out with a book but he> refuses, this vidya is> only misused by egoists so he does not want a> curse of sharing that> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi> Brahmin btw, my efforts> still continue in him bringing at least a basic> book.> > 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a> deeper sense, we> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi> (Devekerelam) & to a certain> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g> > 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to> walk into america as per> most senior astrologers in america had seen the> text of Vasistha Nadi> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all> know how fantastic a> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never> be born again. People on> lists will sit here whole life arguing that> Outer Planets are not> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to> test it on 100 charts> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise> what we are missing and> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if> we know everything that> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas> well. If we read first 2> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is> trying to say (which is> understandable as it is in clear english) we> would know that he is not> going to reveal everything that is astrology at> all so its useless to> hide behind his back.> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen> to what people say, this> Uranus works and it works too well'.> > 9) People say that the issue is not if > outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it> takes only 1 yr, can we> say with all honesty that we understand how> Jupiter is going to give> results in a chart or say any other planet in> jyotish - ofcourse not we> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -> this is the truth and> can be found out when we meet masters who had> some knowledge of this> science.> > 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which> requires Bhakti of the highest> order and people who are argumentative, have> anger, have jealousy, want> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame> or getting themselves> shown as scholars will never understand it in> this or any lifetime. Even> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the> above criteria, I guess they> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and> not common man, anyone> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n> met masters will realise> this statement as he will often find this answer> staring right at his> face.> > I appreciate people like u who have tested the> outer planets in over> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who> only talk talk talk or> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the> shlokas that we know on> 100 charts.> > To end this,' We do not understand what the> sages have said so getting> into arguments or discussions and says Sages> said this or that is> Absurdity'> > best wishes> Sunil John> Mumbai> P.S: To others pls do not waste ur energy in> replying to this mail, I do> not have the time or inclination to read it.> > > > > > > > > ,> Robert Koch <rk> wrote:> >> > Namah Shivaya> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~> >> > Dear Mr. Nair,> >> > Thank you for your post as well, which,> although much less cynical> > than the responses of Sreenadh-ji, poses some> good points. I too> > have argued for years since embarking on an> ambitious study of> > Jyotish in 1984 that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto> have no place within> > the practice of classical Jyotish. What> naksatras do they rule? Who> > is their Devata, etc.? But my original> stoicism toward these planets> > has changed due to undeniable experience of> their> > affects. Astrologers must bring different> approaches to the table as> > to the usefulness of these planets in actual> astrological practice,> > rather than endless parrot-like quoting of> shastras in an effort to> > dismiss them. There are those whose habit is> to disable or ignore> > new approaches based on scriptural and> classical reference, and then> > there are those who seek to find out in> practice if they work or not> > or are useful. I prefer to take the latter> route frankly.> >> > Let me make my point more clear: I believe in> the active and> > enthusiastic efforts to try, research, and> investigate the various> > methods of astrology being put forth. If> there is even an inkling of> > reference to Vasishta Nadi, or Kapila Nadi as> to Uranus, Neptune and> > Pluto, or if stalwarts in the field for whom I> have great respect (as> > an example, Sri Chandulal S. Patel who did> extensive research on the> > use of outer planets) then I personally will> not sit on my hands> > until I have seen their effect in at least 100> charts. The fact is,> > that if transit Pluto moves over the lagna or> Moon of the chart, you> > will not be able to deny the life-changing> events and affects that> > such transits bring forward. This has been my> observation testing it> > in hundreds of charts in a period of 23 years.> There are various> > progression methods too practiced by both Nadi> astrologers as well as> > western astrologers, and these will bring very> specific events to our> > awareness referencing these outer planets as> well.> >> > However, you are right, if Sri K.N. Rao> challenged some Marathi> > astrologers to demonstrate their researches on> outer planets, then> > the latter should have come forward to prove> their point.> >> > Anyway, so how will we use our classical> knowledge then? To dismiss> > or negate, or to rejuvenate the energy of> discovery by trial and> > error, research and investigation? It is all> up to the disposition> > of the individual astrologer and how he/she> sees the learning and> > practice of this great science. If I think> for a moment that my> > technique or knowledge is sufficient, and all> the while I have not> > practically tested even what I do know on a> multiplicity of charts,> > then Jyotish becomes a dry, intellectual hobby> at best. Then it only> > serves to reinforce the ego of the astrologer,> rather than becoming a> > vehicle to uplift and enlighten others. If,> however, the astrologer> > continually tries, tests, and researches, then> he keeps the science> > alive and you may be surprised how many> secrets are revealed to a> > person with that attitude toward his practice.> >> > With best regards, and no disrespect intended> toward anyone -> >> > Robert> >> > At 01:48 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:> >> > >Hare rama krishna,> > >> > >dear robertji,> > >> > > Thanks for your post.> > >> > >But as seekers of truth and holders of light> called jyothisha> > >should we go by some stray references which> quoted by some one in> > >some group or we shud look for its textual> reference.in tamil or> > >sanskrit ,as most of naadis in this laungage> and quote the page> > >--line of concerned books.> > >> > >my observations.> > >> > >1)this planets stays more years and transit> in ones life is> > >negligible as almost 100 or more years it> stays in one rasi> > >> > > 2) There is no graha --khetra allotted to> this planets by vedic> > > seers,like ucha ,swa or neecha .> > >> > >3)There is no dasa periods as its important> in delination of results.> > >> > >4) their nature ,karaka and frndly and enmy> planets r not identified> > >again important in vedic style of delination> of results.> > >> > >And i read --i dont hav text--in varaha hora> --varahmihira describes> > >--there are 100s crores of planets are there> but we take only 7> > >planets and 2 chaya grahs ( its some thing> like grhanam shatha kodi> > >---- like this --may be sree nath can help me> ),as only this planets> > >can influence in ecliptical path of earth .> > >> > >Also one naadi astrology people under the> team of sri Taneja of> > >delhi uses this planets as i was told he was> taught this method by> > >one J C LUTRA ,again i dont know whats their> sourse,and i could not> > >test it as they use differrent ayanamsha and> charges 15000/- or some> > >for software ,so i leav it> > >> > >Once in one astro conference held and chaired> by BV raman ,sri KN> > >rao challenged all marathi astrologers to> prove those who uses extra> > >sataurnian planets ,all shied away ,most of> them were famous> astrologers> > >> > >i heard in mahabharath vedvyas mentiones> indra varuna,rudra dring> > >the time of war --yes i dont hav that part> with me now> > >> > >But its more mundane as a bloody distructive> war.> > >> > >pls produce textual support.> > >> > >regrds sunil nair> > >> > >om shreem mahalaxmai namah.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >--- In> , Robert> Koch rk@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Prafulla,> > > >> > > > At 08:56 AM 7/4/2007, you wrote:> > > > >Dear Sir> > > > >> > > > >Harshal, Neptune etc are referred in one> of the nadi..I do not> > > > >remember..one of the jyotish forum member> shared that on another> > > > >thread in another forum.> > > >> > > > Yes, according to my sources also, Uranus,> Neptune, and Pluto are> > > > taught in Vasishta and Kapila Nadis.> > > >> > > > Best regards,> > > > Robert Koch> > > >> > > >> > > > >regards / Prafulla Gang> > > > >http://www.prafulla.net> > > > >> > > > >"The right to be heard does not> automatically include the right> to> > > > >be taken seriously."> > > >>>************************************************> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > navagraha@> > > > > > ! Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:02:47 -0400> > > > > > To:> > > > > > > Re:> Re: Importance of> Bhava Chart> > > > > >> > > > > > Namaste Sreenadh,> > > > > >> > > > > > There are astrologers in Maharashatra> that give absolutely> brilliant> > > > > > predictions. They use Hershel, Neptune> etc. Rarely use dashas.> I agree> > > > > > with> > > > > > you that Hershel and neptune have no> classical standing.> > > > > >> > > > > > I personally do not think hershel and> neptune don't need to be> used to> > > > > > give> > > > > > predictions. Quest for Pramana in> classics is the way to go.> > > > > >> > > > > > ...> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > On 7/4/07, Sreenadh sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > >>> > > > > >> Dear Prafulla ji,> > > > > >> I don't know. That is not my domai! n> as well. I am after> ancient> > > > > >> Indian astrology - in a continuing> search for the originals.> That is> > > > > >> the only thing I can say.> > > > > >> Love,> > > > > >> Sreenadh> > > > > >>> > > > > >> --- In> > > > > >>> > > > >> > >> <%40yaho\> ogroups.com>,> > > > > >> Prafulla Gang> > > > > >> jyotish@ wrote:> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> Dear Sreenadh ji> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> I am not familiar with history of> jyotish and sanskrit as> well. But> > > > > >> In my observation - most> traditionalist in northern India use> bhava> > > > > >> chalit chart for quite accurate> predictions. If it does not> make> > > > > >> sense, then how come predictions are> so accurate?> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> regards / Prafulla Gang> > > > > >>> http://www.prafulla.net> > > > > & !> > >gt;>>> > > > > >>> "The right to be heard does not> automatically include the> right to> > > > > >> be taken seriously."> > > > > >>>> ************************************************> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> sreesog@> > > > > >>>> Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:59:46> -0000> > > > > >>>> To:> > > > > >>>>> > > > >> > >> <%40yaho\> ogroups.com>> > > > > >>>> > Re: Importance of Bhava> Chart> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> Dear Kannan ji,> > > > > >>>> There is "no seperate bhava chart";> the Rasi chart itself> is the> > > > > >>>> bhava chart. Considering bhava> chart as a seperate entity> originated> > > > ! > >>>> after the period of Sripati of> 10th centuary AD. It is> misleading> > > > > >>>> concept similar to considering> Navamsa as a seperate chart> not> > > > > >>>> supported by ancient sages.> > > > > >>>> You can find more info regarding> the same from the> following file> > > > > >>>> present in the file section of the> group.> > > > > >>>> URL:> > > > > >>>>> > >>Sreenadh/> > > > > >>>> Signs and Houses.pdf> > > > > >>>> As you could see there is no point> in discussing> non-existent things> > > > > >>>> which are not supported by the> sages; as of me I trying to> > > understand> > > > > >>>> what they taught, as per their own> words. [And therefore> any> > > > > >>>> discussion on Bhava, considering it> not the same as sign,> is not my> > > > > >>>> domain]> > > > > >>>>> > > > & !> > >gt; >>>> ==>> > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important> planet for Scorpio Lagna> placed in> > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and> in Dhanu in Bhava (own> sign).> > > > > >>>> <==> > > > > >>>> As you could see, this is absurd.> For Scorpio Lagna, Ju> in> > > > > >>>> Capricorn (Makara) rasi, is in 3rd> house (bhava), and is> > > in Capricorn> > > > > >>>> sign. (Sign and house being the> same). This is the ancient> concept;> > > > > >>>> and the result derivation would be> as per that. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> ==>> > > > > >>>>> In continuation to our earlier> discussions on> > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example> Jupiter is Retrograde and> placed in> > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the> effect of> debilitation/own sign> > > > ! > >>>>> in this case.> > > > > >>>> <==> > > > > >>>> That is an entirely different> subject (i.e. how to> interpret Sign> > > > > >>>> and Navamsa results) and would> discussed later.> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> ==>> > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am> eagerly waiting for your next> file on> > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.> > > > > >>>> <==> > > > > >>>> Yes, this is one thing in the> urgent task list. I will> try to> > > > > >>>> complete it by next Saturday or> prior to that. > > > > > >>>> Love,> > > > > >>>> Sreenadh> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> --- In> > > > > >>>>> > > > >> > >> <%40yaho\> ogroups.com>,> > > > > >> "kankan_73"> > > > > >>> & g!> > >t; <kankan_73@> wrote:> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> Please tell me something on the> importance of Bhava Chart.> Do this> > > > > >>>>> chart has importance like Navamsa.> I have seen mentioning> of bhava> > > > > >>>>> position (if different from Rasi> Chart) while mentioning> Planetary> > > > > >>>>> results in old Jathakams written> by Kerala astrologers.> What is> > > > > >>>> the> > > > > >>>>> result if an important planet is> posited in different> signs in Rasi> > > > > >>>>> and Bhava.> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important> planet for Scorpio Lagna> placed in> > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and> in Dhanu in Bhava (own> sign).> > > > > >>> & g!> > >t; How> > > > > >>>>> do we analyze this. In contin> uation to our earlier> discussions on> > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example> Jupiter is Retrograde and> placed in> > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the> effect of> debilitation/own sign> > > > > >>>> in> > > > > >>>>> this case.> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> I request you to give your views> on Bhava vs Rasi> > > > > >>>>> differences/effects in general and> also your view on the> above> > > > > >>>>> example.> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am> eagerly waiting for your next> file on> > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> Thanks & regards,> > > > > >>>>> Kannan> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>> & !> > >gt;> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>

July 6, 2007

Namaste,

How does one use outer planets ? there is certainly no pramana for it. Also those who use it can not be relying on dashas or even lordships. No lordships are given to outer planets. So how can we use them ? Since their discovery they have not even completed a few of rounds of the zodiac so how can we assign properties to them in various signs. Pluto has been removed from the planet list by scientists and is not even among the dwarf planets. Are you suggesting we use them with out lordships, without dashas. It makes no sense.

....

On 7/6/07, Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:

Dear Sunil John jiI must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please read my answer: >> >> Dear Robert,>> Though I had walked off this list long back due>> to the racist remark but>> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

>> are a genuine seeker of>> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for>> u :->> I feel we have a different problem its not about>> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

> but do we have the>> Open Mind to understand>> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets>> behave differently in>> different yugas (clues to this have been given

>> in many old books), so>> should we alter our thinking.>> >> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient>> books so debating if outer>> planets were written in the old books is

>> fruitless especially since>> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at>> homes which are yet to>> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are>> gathering dust though i

>> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to>> translate it and they are>> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work>> is meant for everyone>> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

>> almost finished Bhrigu>> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has>> faced unsurmountable>> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had>> said all works aside and

>> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.>> >> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers>> this must be taken in>> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

>> strength & weakness first>> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his>> own mentor in mundane>> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to>> use Outer Planets

>> fantastically in his predictions and is till>> date one of the greatest>> predictors of mundane astrology.>> [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from the panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang well.

>> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget>> the shloka business see>> what works that is True astrology, so running>> behind shlokas for it is>> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

>> whats the use, can anyone>> today interpret it, I have not found a true>> knowledgeable guy in>> sanskrit.[Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As you have rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be taken differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for any interpretation - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same point - where we start from (of course at some stage of journey). The best proof will always be its application. If it works - we must induct in our reading model, else we must ignore it.

>> >> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed>> scholars who have zero>> level of scientific mind and do not test any>> principle. thousands of

>> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to>> that. So should we>> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote>> it. Rishis do not agree to>> the effects of even something as a planet in a

>> house, different opinions>> among rishis>> [Prafulla] very well expressed>> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says>> was one of the most

>> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY>> every event, he used to>> use the Outer Planets.>> [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many years back that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was also using them brilliantly. >> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who>> was brought up in a>> tradition where books from Lopi Script were>> handed down to him, for 25

>> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that>> he was asked to see his>> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he>> takes is in form of>> donation, he does not see the amount given &

>> donates it full). I have>> not met an astrologer like him, of all the>> astrologers i have met and>> interacted he is the only guy I know who can>> UNLOCK a chart. He was

>> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and>> I have vowed not to take>> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not>> deserve him. I always>> say if people on the lists from india knew

>> astrology they would not have>> spare time to write here as flock of people>> would be outside their>> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100>> people and he drives the

>> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his>> parampara is of more than 14>> generations, at that time the world did not even>> know of Outer Planets.>> I asked him to share the shlokas from his

>> family, he said can u or>> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability>> to decode it, whats the>> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only>> when u see the shloka u

>> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique>> only then u would learn>> astrology' - he told me.>> [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern students including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must not mess with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues. many of these traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for variety of reasons, including the polluted generation.

>> I have begged him to come out with a book but he>> refuses, this vidya is>> only misused by egoists so he does not want a>> curse of sharing that>> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

>> Brahmin btw, my efforts>> still continue in him bringing at least a basic>> book.[Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will be blessing for the jyotish students.

>> >> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a>> deeper sense, we>> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi>> (Devekerelam) & to a certain

>> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g>> [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such literature, which does not deliver in current form. >> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to>> walk into america as per>> most senior astrologers in america had seen the>> text of Vasistha Nadi

>> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all>> know how fantastic a>> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never>> be born again. People on>> lists will sit here whole life arguing that

>> Outer Planets are not>> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to>> test it on 100 charts>> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise>> what we are missing and

>> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if>> we know everything that>> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas>> well. If we read first 2>> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

>> trying to say (which is>> understandable as it is in clear english) we>> would know that he is not>> going to reveal everything that is astrology at>> all so its useless to

>> hide behind his back.>> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen>> to what people say, this>> Uranus works and it works too well'.>>

[Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an experienced astrologer !!>> 9) People say that the issue is not if>> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah>> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

>> takes only 1 yr, can we>> say with all honesty that we understand how>> Jupiter is going to give>> results in a chart or say any other planet in>> jyotish - ofcourse not we

>> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is ->> this is the truth and>> can be found out when we meet masters who had>> some knowledge of this>> science.>> [Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets can clarify the application through case studies.>> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which>> requires Bhakti of the highest

>> order and people who are argumentative, have>> anger, have jealousy, want>> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame>> or getting themselves>> shown as scholars will never understand it in

>> this or any lifetime. Even>> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the>> above criteria, I guess they>> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and>> not common man, anyone

>> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n>> met masters will realise>> this statement as he will often find this answer>> staring right at his>> face.>>

[Prafulla] very well said.>> I appreciate people like u who have tested the>> outer planets in over>> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who>> only talk talk talk or

>> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the>> shlokas that we know on>> 100 charts.>> >> To end this,' We do not understand what the>> sages have said so getting

>> into arguments or discussions and says Sages>> said this or that is>> Absurdity'>> [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit) barriers. This shloka business is ruining jyotish.

regards / Prafulla

July 6, 2007

Dear Prafulla ji,

You are forgetting the prime fact that it is a group for learning

and discussing " Ancient Indian Astrology " - and not a group to discuss

neither modern western astrology nor the self made techniques.

==>

> This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As you have

> rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be taken

> differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for any

> interpretation - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same

> point - where we start from (of course at some stage of journey).

> The best proof will always be its application. If it works -

> we must induct in our reading model, else we must ignore it.

<==

==>

> Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict consistently

> from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such

> literature, which does not deliver in current form.

<==

Please keep the purpose of the group in mind while posting. Here the

views of the sages are valued. I hope you could understand it.

Love,

Sreenadh

, Prafulla Gang

<jyotish wrote:

>

> Dear Sunil John ji

>

> I must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please

read my answer:

>

> >>

> >> Dear Robert,

> >> Though I had walked off this list long back due

> >> to the racist remark but

> >> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

> >> are a genuine seeker of

> >> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for

> >> u :-

> >> I feel we have a different problem its not about

> >> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

> > but do we have the

> >> Open Mind to understand

> >> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

> >> behave differently in

> >> different yugas (clues to this have been given

> >> in many old books), so

> >> should we alter our thinking.

> >>

> >> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient

> >> books so debating if outer

> >> planets were written in the old books is

> >> fruitless especially since

> >> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at

> >> homes which are yet to

> >> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are

> >> gathering dust though i

> >> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to

> >> translate it and they are

> >> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work

> >> is meant for everyone

> >> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

> >> almost finished Bhrigu

> >> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has

> >> faced unsurmountable

> >> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had

> >> said all works aside and

> >> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.

> >>

> >> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

> >> this must be taken in

> >> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

> >> strength & weakness first

> >> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

> >> own mentor in mundane

> >> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to

> >> use Outer Planets

> >> fantastically in his predictions and is till

> >> date one of the greatest

> >> predictors of mundane astrology.

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from

the panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang

well.

>

> >> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget

> >> the shloka business see

> >> what works that is True astrology, so running

> >> behind shlokas for it is

> >> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

> >> whats the use, can anyone

> >> today interpret it, I have not found a true

> >> knowledgeable guy in

> >> sanskrit.

>

> [Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As

you have rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be

taken differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for any

interpretation - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same

point - where we start from (of course at some stage of journey). The

best proof will always be its application. If it works - we must

induct in our reading model, else we must ignore it.

>

> >>

> >> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

> >> scholars who have zero

> >> level of scientific mind and do not test any

> >> principle. thousands of

> >> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

> >> that. So should we

> >> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote

> >> it. Rishis do not agree to

> >> the effects of even something as a planet in a

> >> house, different opinions

> >> among rishis

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] very well expressed

>

> >> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

> >> was one of the most

> >> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY

> >> every event, he used to

> >> use the Outer Planets.

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many years

back that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was also

using them brilliantly.

>

> >> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who

> >> was brought up in a

> >> tradition where books from Lopi Script were

> >> handed down to him, for 25

> >> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that

> >> he was asked to see his

> >> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he

> >> takes is in form of

> >> donation, he does not see the amount given &

> >> donates it full). I have

> >> not met an astrologer like him, of all the

> >> astrologers i have met and

> >> interacted he is the only guy I know who can

> >> UNLOCK a chart. He was

> >> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and

> >> I have vowed not to take

> >> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not

> >> deserve him. I always

> >> say if people on the lists from india knew

> >> astrology they would not have

> >> spare time to write here as flock of people

> >> would be outside their

> >> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100

> >> people and he drives the

> >> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his

> >> parampara is of more than 14

> >> generations, at that time the world did not even

> >> know of Outer Planets.

> >> I asked him to share the shlokas from his

> >> family, he said can u or

> >> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability

> >> to decode it, whats the

> >> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only

> >> when u see the shloka u

> >> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique

> >> only then u would learn

> >> astrology' - he told me.

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern students

including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must not

mess with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues.

many of these traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for

variety of reasons, including the polluted generation.

>

> >> I have begged him to come out with a book but he

> >> refuses, this vidya is

> >> only misused by egoists so he does not want a

> >> curse of sharing that

> >> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

> >> Brahmin btw, my efforts

> >> still continue in him bringing at least a basic

> >> book.

>

> [Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will be

blessing for the jyotish students.

> >>

> >> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

> >> deeper sense, we

> >> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi

> >> (Devekerelam) & to a certain

> >> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict

consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such

literature, which does not deliver in current form.

>

> >> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to

> >> walk into america as per

> >> most senior astrologers in america had seen the

> >> text of Vasistha Nadi

> >> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all

> >> know how fantastic a

> >> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never

> >> be born again. People on

> >> lists will sit here whole life arguing that

> >> Outer Planets are not

> >> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to

> >> test it on 100 charts

> >> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise

> >> what we are missing and

> >> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if

> >> we know everything that

> >> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas

> >> well. If we read first 2

> >> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

> >> trying to say (which is

> >> understandable as it is in clear english) we

> >> would know that he is not

> >> going to reveal everything that is astrology at

> >> all so its useless to

> >> hide behind his back.

> >> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen

> >> to what people say, this

> >> Uranus works and it works too well'.

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an experienced

astrologer !!

>

> >> 9) People say that the issue is not if

> >> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah

> >> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

> >> takes only 1 yr, can we

> >> say with all honesty that we understand how

> >> Jupiter is going to give

> >> results in a chart or say any other planet in

> >> jyotish - ofcourse not we

> >> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

> >> this is the truth and

> >> can be found out when we meet masters who had

> >> some knowledge of this

> >> science.

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets can

clarify the application through case studies.

>

> >> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which

> >> requires Bhakti of the highest

> >> order and people who are argumentative, have

> >> anger, have jealousy, want

> >> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame

> >> or getting themselves

> >> shown as scholars will never understand it in

> >> this or any lifetime. Even

> >> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the

> >> above criteria, I guess they

> >> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and

> >> not common man, anyone

> >> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n

> >> met masters will realise

> >> this statement as he will often find this answer

> >> staring right at his

> >> face.

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] very well said.

>

> >> I appreciate people like u who have tested the

> >> outer planets in over

> >> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who

> >> only talk talk talk or

> >> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the

> >> shlokas that we know on

> >> 100 charts.

> >>

> >> To end this,' We do not understand what the

> >> sages have said so getting

> >> into arguments or discussions and says Sages

> >> said this or that is

> >> Absurdity'

> >>

>

> [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit)

barriers. This shloka business is ruining jyotish.

>

> regards / Prafulla

>

July 6, 2007

Dear Pundit ji,

Further as per the theoretical foundation of astrology-

* Only 2 luminaries are necessary to represent Siva-Sakti dwitwa.

* Only 5 planets are necessary to represent the 5 tatwas.

* The planets become concepts rather than the physical influence of

the physical planets itself.

Where is the scope for other planets in such a theoretical foundation?!!

The other planets are scientific realities, but astrology exist on

the psychological and conceptual plane. Take the year length of 360

Savana days the sages ask us to use to calculate Vimsottari Dasa. What

is the importance of it in the scientific plane? Nothing! It is

neither the year length indicated by sun (365.2425 days) nor the year

length indicated by Moon (354 days). Then what is its importance?!

The Surya sidhanta states -

shalbhiH pranair vinadi syal tal shashtya nadika smrita

[6 Breaths is equal to 1 Vinadi and 60 Vinadi is equal to 1 Nadi] It

continues to state that such 60 days create an year. Thus -

6 x 60 x 60 = 21600 breath = 1 day

360 such days of create a Savana year!

Thus the indication is towards the rhythm of the human body itself,

where Breath plays a major role in determining it. Thus it becomes

clear that the importance 360 day savana year sprung from observing

the breath pattern, which is a phenomena happening in the human body

itself!

Without slokas how we are supposed to know such things?! How can the

outward science help us in understanding it?

Further those who are speaking rejecting the sages is not at all

interested in the methods told by them; and is after the modern

made-up methods are violating the very purpose and aim of this group

itself; i.e. to learn and discuss " ancient indian astrology " . If we

are interested in Hershel, Neptune, Pluto and the new methods and

techniques that sprung up every day - I think there are many groups

out there with discuss the same. Yes, of course the discussion of Nadi

astrology would be appreciated - but only by people who have proper

understanding of the same and is willing to share the methods followed

in that branch with proper reference and clarifications.

From the beginning onwards this group was started with the aim of

learning and discussing 'ancient indian astrology' of any sort - but

of course NOT 'modern indian or western astrology' - which many other

groups deals with. Thus group is intended to be different, and has a

purpose; and request everyone to keep it in mind.

Love,

Sreenadh

, Panditji

<navagraha wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> How does one use outer planets ? there is certainly no pramana for

it. Also

> those who use it can not be relying on dashas or even lordships. No

> lordships are given to outer planets. So how can we use them ? Since

their

> discovery they have not even completed a few of rounds of the zodiac

so how

> can we assign properties to them in various signs. Pluto has been

removed

> from the planet list by scientists and is not even among the dwarf

planets.

> Are you suggesting we use them with out lordships, without dashas.

It makes

> no sense.

>

> ...

>

> On 7/6/07, Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sunil John ji

> >

> > I must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please

read my

> > answer:

> >

> > >>

> > >> Dear Robert,

> > >> Though I had walked off this list long back due

> > >> to the racist remark but

> > >> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

> > >> are a genuine seeker of

> > >> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for

> > >> u :-

> > >> I feel we have a different problem its not about

> > >> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

> > > but do we have the

> > >> Open Mind to understand

> > >> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

> > >> behave differently in

> > >> different yugas (clues to this have been given

> > >> in many old books), so

> > >> should we alter our thinking.

> > >>

> > >> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient

> > >> books so debating if outer

> > >> planets were written in the old books is

> > >> fruitless especially since

> > >> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at

> > >> homes which are yet to

> > >> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are

> > >> gathering dust though i

> > >> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to

> > >> translate it and they are

> > >> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work

> > >> is meant for everyone

> > >> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

> > >> almost finished Bhrigu

> > >> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has

> > >> faced unsurmountable

> > >> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had

> > >> said all works aside and

> > >> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.

> > >>

> > >> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

> > >> this must be taken in

> > >> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

> > >> strength & weakness first

> > >> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

> > >> own mentor in mundane

> > >> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to

> > >> use Outer Planets

> > >> fantastically in his predictions and is till

> > >> date one of the greatest

> > >> predictors of mundane astrology.

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from the

> > panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang

well.

> >

> > >> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget

> > >> the shloka business see

> > >> what works that is True astrology, so running

> > >> behind shlokas for it is

> > >> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

> > >> whats the use, can anyone

> > >> today interpret it, I have not found a true

> > >> knowledgeable guy in

> > >> sanskrit.

> >

> > [Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As you

> > have rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be taken

> > differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for any

interpretation

> > - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same point - where

we start

> > from (of course at some stage of journey). The best proof will

always be its

> > application. If it works - we must induct in our reading model,

else we must

> > ignore it.

> >

> > >>

> > >> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

> > >> scholars who have zero

> > >> level of scientific mind and do not test any

> > >> principle. thousands of

> > >> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

> > >> that. So should we

> > >> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote

> > >> it. Rishis do not agree to

> > >> the effects of even something as a planet in a

> > >> house, different opinions

> > >> among rishis

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] very well expressed

> >

> > >> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

> > >> was one of the most

> > >> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY

> > >> every event, he used to

> > >> use the Outer Planets.

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many

years back

> > that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was also

using them

> > brilliantly.

> >

> > >> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who

> > >> was brought up in a

> > >> tradition where books from Lopi Script were

> > >> handed down to him, for 25

> > >> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that

> > >> he was asked to see his

> > >> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he

> > >> takes is in form of

> > >> donation, he does not see the amount given &

> > >> donates it full). I have

> > >> not met an astrologer like him, of all the

> > >> astrologers i have met and

> > >> interacted he is the only guy I know who can

> > >> UNLOCK a chart. He was

> > >> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and

> > >> I have vowed not to take

> > >> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not

> > >> deserve him. I always

> > >> say if people on the lists from india knew

> > >> astrology they would not have

> > >> spare time to write here as flock of people

> > >> would be outside their

> > >> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100

> > >> people and he drives the

> > >> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his

> > >> parampara is of more than 14

> > >> generations, at that time the world did not even

> > >> know of Outer Planets.

> > >> I asked him to share the shlokas from his

> > >> family, he said can u or

> > >> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability

> > >> to decode it, whats the

> > >> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only

> > >> when u see the shloka u

> > >> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique

> > >> only then u would learn

> > >> astrology' - he told me.

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern students

> > including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must

not mess

> > with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues. many

of these

> > traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for variety of

reasons,

> > including the polluted generation.

> >

> > >> I have begged him to come out with a book but he

> > >> refuses, this vidya is

> > >> only misused by egoists so he does not want a

> > >> curse of sharing that

> > >> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

> > >> Brahmin btw, my efforts

> > >> still continue in him bringing at least a basic

> > >> book.

> >

> > [Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will be

blessing

> > for the jyotish students.

> > >>

> > >> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

> > >> deeper sense, we

> > >> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi

> > >> (Devekerelam) & to a certain

> > >> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict

> > consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such

> > literature, which does not deliver in current form.

> >

> > >> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to

> > >> walk into america as per

> > >> most senior astrologers in america had seen the

> > >> text of Vasistha Nadi

> > >> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all

> > >> know how fantastic a

> > >> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never

> > >> be born again. People on

> > >> lists will sit here whole life arguing that

> > >> Outer Planets are not

> > >> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to

> > >> test it on 100 charts

> > >> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise

> > >> what we are missing and

> > >> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if

> > >> we know everything that

> > >> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas

> > >> well. If we read first 2

> > >> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

> > >> trying to say (which is

> > >> understandable as it is in clear english) we

> > >> would know that he is not

> > >> going to reveal everything that is astrology at

> > >> all so its useless to

> > >> hide behind his back.

> > >> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen

> > >> to what people say, this

> > >> Uranus works and it works too well'.

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an experienced

> > astrologer !!

> >

> > >> 9) People say that the issue is not if

> > >> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah

> > >> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

> > >> takes only 1 yr, can we

> > >> say with all honesty that we understand how

> > >> Jupiter is going to give

> > >> results in a chart or say any other planet in

> > >> jyotish - ofcourse not we

> > >> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

> > >> this is the truth and

> > >> can be found out when we meet masters who had

> > >> some knowledge of this

> > >> science.

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets can

clarify

> > the application through case studies.

> >

> > >> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which

> > >> requires Bhakti of the highest

> > >> order and people who are argumentative, have

> > >> anger, have jealousy, want

> > >> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame

> > >> or getting themselves

> > >> shown as scholars will never understand it in

> > >> this or any lifetime. Even

> > >> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the

> > >> above criteria, I guess they

> > >> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and

> > >> not common man, anyone

> > >> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n

> > >> met masters will realise

> > >> this statement as he will often find this answer

> > >> staring right at his

> > >> face.

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] very well said.

> >

> > >> I appreciate people like u who have tested the

> > >> outer planets in over

> > >> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who

> > >> only talk talk talk or

> > >> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the

> > >> shlokas that we know on

> > >> 100 charts.

> > >>

> > >> To end this,' We do not understand what the

> > >> sages have said so getting

> > >> into arguments or discussions and says Sages

> > >> said this or that is

> > >> Absurdity'

> > >>

> >

> > [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit)

barriers.

> > This shloka business is ruining jyotish.

> >

> > regards / Prafulla

> >

>

July 6, 2007

Namaste Sreenadhji,

Well said. If one wants to indulge in the flavor of the day theories nothing wrong and there are other forums that cater to this.

Thanks

One question on what you said,

---

6 Breaths is equal to 1 Vinadi and 60 Vinadi is equal to 1 Nadi] Itcontinues to state that such 60 days create an year. Thus -6 x 60 x 60 = 21600 breath = 1 day360 such days of create a Savana year!----

Does not add up. Do you mean 60 nadis equal one day and 360 days make a year ?

....

On 7/6/07, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:

Dear Pundit ji,Further as per the theoretical foundation of astrology-* Only 2 luminaries are necessary to represent Siva-Sakti dwitwa.* Only 5 planets are necessary to represent the 5 tatwas.* The planets become concepts rather than the physical influence of

the physical planets itself.Where is the scope for other planets in such a theoretical foundation?!! The other planets are scientific realities, but astrology exist onthe psychological and conceptual plane. Take the year length of 360

Savana days the sages ask us to use to calculate Vimsottari Dasa. Whatis the importance of it in the scientific plane? Nothing! It isneither the year length indicated by sun (365.2425 days) nor the yearlength indicated by Moon (354 days). Then what is its importance?!

The Surya sidhanta states -shalbhiH pranair vinadi syal tal shashtya nadika smrita[6 Breaths is equal to 1 Vinadi and 60 Vinadi is equal to 1 Nadi] Itcontinues to state that such 60 days create an year. Thus -

6 x 60 x 60 = 21600 breath = 1 day360 such days of create a Savana year!Thus the indication is towards the rhythm of the human body itself,where Breath plays a major role in determining it. Thus it becomes

clear that the importance 360 day savana year sprung from observingthe breath pattern, which is a phenomena happening in the human bodyitself!Without slokas how we are supposed to know such things?! How can the

outward science help us in understanding it? Further those who are speaking rejecting the sages is not at allinterested in the methods told by them; and is after the modernmade-up methods are violating the very purpose and aim of this group

itself; i.e. to learn and discuss " ancient indian astrology " . If weare interested in Hershel, Neptune, Pluto and the new methods andtechniques that sprung up every day - I think there are many groups

out there with discuss the same. Yes, of course the discussion of Nadiastrology would be appreciated - but only by people who have properunderstanding of the same and is willing to share the methods followed

in that branch with proper reference and clarifications.From the beginning onwards this group was started with the aim oflearning and discussing 'ancient indian astrology' of any sort - butof course NOT 'modern indian or western astrology' - which many other

groups deals with. Thus group is intended to be different, and has apurpose; and request everyone to keep it in mind. Love,Sreenadh

, Panditji<navagraha wrote:>> Namaste,> > How does one use outer planets ? there is certainly no pramana forit. Also

> those who use it can not be relying on dashas or even lordships. No> lordships are given to outer planets. So how can we use them ? Sincetheir> discovery they have not even completed a few of rounds of the zodiac

so how> can we assign properties to them in various signs. Pluto has beenremoved> from the planet list by scientists and is not even among the dwarfplanets.> Are you suggesting we use them with out lordships, without dashas.

It makes> no sense.> > ...> >

> On 7/6/07, Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:> >> > Dear Sunil John ji> >> > I must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please

read my> > answer:> >> > >>> > >> Dear Robert,> > >> Though I had walked off this list long back due> > >> to the racist remark but

> > >> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u> > >> are a genuine seeker of> > >> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for> > >> u :-> > >> I feel we have a different problem its not about

> > >> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages> > > but do we have the> > >> Open Mind to understand> > >> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

> > >> behave differently in> > >> different yugas (clues to this have been given> > >> in many old books), so> > >> should we alter our thinking.> > >>

> > >> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient> > >> books so debating if outer> > >> planets were written in the old books is> > >> fruitless especially since

> > >> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at> > >> homes which are yet to> > >> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are> > >> gathering dust though i

> > >> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to> > >> translate it and they are> > >> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work> > >> is meant for everyone

> > >> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had> > >> almost finished Bhrigu> > >> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has> > >> faced unsurmountable

> > >> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had> > >> said all works aside and> > >> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.> > >>> > >> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

> > >> this must be taken in> > >> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs> > >> strength & weakness first> > >> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

> > >> own mentor in mundane> > >> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to> > >> use Outer Planets> > >> fantastically in his predictions and is till

> > >> date one of the greatest> > >> predictors of mundane astrology.> > >>> >> > [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from the

> > panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchangwell.> >> > >> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget> > >> the shloka business see> > >> what works that is True astrology, so running

> > >> behind shlokas for it is> > >> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented> > >> whats the use, can anyone> > >> today interpret it, I have not found a true

> > >> knowledgeable guy in> > >> sanskrit.> >> > [Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As you> > have rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be taken

> > differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for anyinterpretation> > - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same point - wherewe start> > from (of course at some stage of journey). The best proof will

always be its> > application. If it works - we must induct in our reading model,else we must> > ignore it.> >> > >>> > >> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

> > >> scholars who have zero> > >> level of scientific mind and do not test any> > >> principle. thousands of> > >> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

> > >> that. So should we> > >> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote> > >> it. Rishis do not agree to> > >> the effects of even something as a planet in a

> > >> house, different opinions> > >> among rishis> > >>> >> > [Prafulla] very well expressed> >> > >> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

> > >> was one of the most> > >> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY> > >> every event, he used to> > >> use the Outer Planets.> > >>

> >> > [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower manyyears back> > that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was alsousing them> > brilliantly.

> >> > >> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who> > >> was brought up in a> > >> tradition where books from Lopi Script were> > >> handed down to him, for 25

> > >> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that> > >> he was asked to see his> > >> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he> > >> takes is in form of

> > >> donation, he does not see the amount given & > > >> donates it full). I have> > >> not met an astrologer like him, of all the> > >> astrologers i have met and

> > >> interacted he is the only guy I know who can> > >> UNLOCK a chart. He was> > >> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and> > >> I have vowed not to take

> > >> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not> > >> deserve him. I always> > >> say if people on the lists from india knew> > >> astrology they would not have

> > >> spare time to write here as flock of people> > >> would be outside their> > >> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100> > >> people and he drives the

> > >> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his> > >> parampara is of more than 14> > >> generations, at that time the world did not even> > >> know of Outer Planets.

> > >> I asked him to share the shlokas from his> > >> family, he said can u or> > >> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability> > >> to decode it, whats the

> > >> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only> > >> when u see the shloka u> > >> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique> > >> only then u would learn

> > >> astrology' - he told me.> > >>> >> > [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern students> > including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must

not mess> > with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues. manyof these> > traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for variety ofreasons,> > including the polluted generation.

> >> > >> I have begged him to come out with a book but he> > >> refuses, this vidya is> > >> only misused by egoists so he does not want a> > >> curse of sharing that

> > >> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi> > >> Brahmin btw, my efforts> > >> still continue in him bringing at least a basic> > >> book.> >

> > [Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will beblessing> > for the jyotish students.> > >>> > >> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

> > >> deeper sense, we> > >> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi> > >> (Devekerelam) & to a certain> > >> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g> > >>

> >> > [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict> > consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such> > literature, which does not deliver in current form.

> >> > >> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to> > >> walk into america as per> > >> most senior astrologers in america had seen the> > >> text of Vasistha Nadi

> > >> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all> > >> know how fantastic a> > >> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never> > >> be born again. People on

> > >> lists will sit here whole life arguing that> > >> Outer Planets are not> > >> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to> > >> test it on 100 charts

> > >> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise> > >> what we are missing and> > >> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if> > >> we know everything that

> > >> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas> > >> well. If we read first 2> > >> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is> > >> trying to say (which is

> > >> understandable as it is in clear english) we> > >> would know that he is not> > >> going to reveal everything that is astrology at> > >> all so its useless to

> > >> hide behind his back.> > >> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen> > >> to what people say, this> > >> Uranus works and it works too well'.

> > >>> >> > [Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an experienced> > astrologer !!> >> > >> 9) People say that the issue is not if

> > >> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah> > >> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it> > >> takes only 1 yr, can we> > >> say with all honesty that we understand how

> > >> Jupiter is going to give> > >> results in a chart or say any other planet in> > >> jyotish - ofcourse not we> > >> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

> > >> this is the truth and> > >> can be found out when we meet masters who had> > >> some knowledge of this> > >> science.> > >>> >

> > [Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets canclarify> > the application through case studies.> >> > >> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which> > >> requires Bhakti of the highest

> > >> order and people who are argumentative, have> > >> anger, have jealousy, want> > >> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame> > >> or getting themselves

> > >> shown as scholars will never understand it in> > >> this or any lifetime. Even> > >> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the> > >> above criteria, I guess they

> > >> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and> > >> not common man, anyone> > >> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n> > >> met masters will realise

> > >> this statement as he will often find this answer> > >> staring right at his> > >> face.> > >>> >> > [Prafulla] very well said.

> >> > >> I appreciate people like u who have tested the> > >> outer planets in over> > >> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who> > >> only talk talk talk or

> > >> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the> > >> shlokas that we know on> > >> 100 charts.> > >>> > >> To end this,' We do not understand what the

> > >> sages have said so getting> > >> into arguments or discussions and says Sages> > >> said this or that is> > >> Absurdity'> > >>

> >> > [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit)barriers.> > This shloka business is ruining jyotish.> >> > regards / Prafulla> >> > > >>

July 7, 2007

Dear Pandit ji,

Yes, there was a typo - it should be read: " 6 Breaths is equal to 1

Vinadi and 60 Vinadi is equal to 1 Nadi. It continues to state that

such 360 days create an year. Thus - 6 x 60 x 60 = 21600 breath = 1

day ; 360 such days of create a Savana year! "

That is -

6 Breath = 1 Vinadi

60 Vinadi = 1 Nadi

60 Nadi = 1 Day

360 Days = 1 Savana Year

i.e. The human breath pattern forms the foundation of the year length.

Love,

Sreenadh

, Panditji

<navagraha wrote:

>

> Namaste Sreenadhji,

>

> Well said. If one wants to indulge in the flavor of the day theories

nothing

> wrong and there are other forums that cater to this.

>

> Thanks

>

> One question on what you said,

>

> ---

> 6 Breaths is equal to 1 Vinadi and 60 Vinadi is equal to 1 Nadi] It

> continues to state that such 60 days create an year. Thus -

> 6 x 60 x 60 = 21600 breath = 1 day

> 360 such days of create a Savana year!

> ----

>

> Does not add up. Do you mean 60 nadis equal one day and 360 days

make a year

> ?

>

> ...

>

> On 7/6/07, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:

> >

> > Dear Pundit ji,

> > Further as per the theoretical foundation of astrology-

> > * Only 2 luminaries are necessary to represent Siva-Sakti dwitwa.

> > * Only 5 planets are necessary to represent the 5 tatwas.

> > * The planets become concepts rather than the physical influence of

> > the physical planets itself.

> > Where is the scope for other planets in such a theoretical

foundation?!!

> >

> > The other planets are scientific realities, but astrology exist on

> > the psychological and conceptual plane. Take the year length of 360

> > Savana days the sages ask us to use to calculate Vimsottari Dasa. What

> > is the importance of it in the scientific plane? Nothing! It is

> > neither the year length indicated by sun (365.2425 days) nor the year

> > length indicated by Moon (354 days). Then what is its importance?!

> >

> > The Surya sidhanta states -

> > shalbhiH pranair vinadi syal tal shashtya nadika smrita

> >

> > [6 Breaths is equal to 1 Vinadi and 60 Vinadi is equal to 1 Nadi] It

> > continues to state that such 60 days create an year. Thus -

> > 6 x 60 x 60 = 21600 breath = 1 day

> > 360 such days of create a Savana year!

> > Thus the indication is towards the rhythm of the human body itself,

> > where Breath plays a major role in determining it. Thus it becomes

> > clear that the importance 360 day savana year sprung from observing

> > the breath pattern, which is a phenomena happening in the human body

> > itself!

> > Without slokas how we are supposed to know such things?! How can the

> > outward science help us in understanding it?

> > Further those who are speaking rejecting the sages is not at all

> > interested in the methods told by them; and is after the modern

> > made-up methods are violating the very purpose and aim of this group

> > itself; i.e. to learn and discuss " ancient indian astrology " . If we

> > are interested in Hershel, Neptune, Pluto and the new methods and

> > techniques that sprung up every day - I think there are many groups

> > out there with discuss the same. Yes, of course the discussion of Nadi

> > astrology would be appreciated - but only by people who have proper

> > understanding of the same and is willing to share the methods followed

> > in that branch with proper reference and clarifications.

> >

> > From the beginning onwards this group was started with the aim of

> > learning and discussing 'ancient indian astrology' of any sort - but

> > of course NOT 'modern indian or western astrology' - which many other

> > groups deals with. Thus group is intended to be different, and has a

> > purpose; and request everyone to keep it in mind.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > --- In

<%40.\

com>,

> > Panditji

> > <navagraha@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > How does one use outer planets ? there is certainly no pramana for

> > it. Also

> > > those who use it can not be relying on dashas or even lordships. No

> > > lordships are given to outer planets. So how can we use them ? Since

> > their

> > > discovery they have not even completed a few of rounds of the zodiac

> > so how

> > > can we assign properties to them in various signs. Pluto has been

> > removed

> > > from the planet list by scientists and is not even among the dwarf

> > planets.

> > > Are you suggesting we use them with out lordships, without dashas.

> > It makes

> > > no sense.

> > >

> > > ...

> > >

> > > On 7/6/07, Prafulla Gang <jyotish@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sunil John ji

> > > >

> > > > I must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please

> > read my

> > > > answer:

> > > >

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Dear Robert,

> > > > >> Though I had walked off this list long back due

> > > > >> to the racist remark but

> > > > >> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u

> > > > >> are a genuine seeker of

> > > > >> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for

> > > > >> u :-

> > > > >> I feel we have a different problem its not about

> > > > >> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages

> > > > > but do we have the

> > > > >> Open Mind to understand

> > > > >> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets

> > > > >> behave differently in

> > > > >> different yugas (clues to this have been given

> > > > >> in many old books), so

> > > > >> should we alter our thinking.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient

> > > > >> books so debating if outer

> > > > >> planets were written in the old books is

> > > > >> fruitless especially since

> > > > >> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at

> > > > >> homes which are yet to

> > > > >> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are

> > > > >> gathering dust though i

> > > > >> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to

> > > > >> translate it and they are

> > > > >> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work

> > > > >> is meant for everyone

> > > > >> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had

> > > > >> almost finished Bhrigu

> > > > >> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has

> > > > >> faced unsurmountable

> > > > >> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had

> > > > >> said all works aside and

> > > > >> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers

> > > > >> this must be taken in

> > > > >> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs

> > > > >> strength & weakness first

> > > > >> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his

> > > > >> own mentor in mundane

> > > > >> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to

> > > > >> use Outer Planets

> > > > >> fantastically in his predictions and is till

> > > > >> date one of the greatest

> > > > >> predictors of mundane astrology.

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang

from the

> > > > panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang

> > well.

> > > >

> > > > >> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget

> > > > >> the shloka business see

> > > > >> what works that is True astrology, so running

> > > > >> behind shlokas for it is

> > > > >> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented

> > > > >> whats the use, can anyone

> > > > >> today interpret it, I have not found a true

> > > > >> knowledgeable guy in

> > > > >> sanskrit.

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge

base. As you

> > > > have rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to

be taken

> > > > differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for any

> > interpretation

> > > > - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same point - where

> > we start

> > > > from (of course at some stage of journey). The best proof will

> > always be its

> > > > application. If it works - we must induct in our reading model,

> > else we must

> > > > ignore it.

> > > >

> > > > >>

> > > > >> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed

> > > > >> scholars who have zero

> > > > >> level of scientific mind and do not test any

> > > > >> principle. thousands of

> > > > >> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to

> > > > >> that. So should we

> > > > >> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote

> > > > >> it. Rishis do not agree to

> > > > >> the effects of even something as a planet in a

> > > > >> house, different opinions

> > > > >> among rishis

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] very well expressed

> > > >

> > > > >> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says

> > > > >> was one of the most

> > > > >> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY

> > > > >> every event, he used to

> > > > >> use the Outer Planets.

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many

> > years back

> > > > that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was also

> > using them

> > > > brilliantly.

> > > >

> > > > >> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who

> > > > >> was brought up in a

> > > > >> tradition where books from Lopi Script were

> > > > >> handed down to him, for 25

> > > > >> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that

> > > > >> he was asked to see his

> > > > >> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he

> > > > >> takes is in form of

> > > > >> donation, he does not see the amount given &

> > > > >> donates it full). I have

> > > > >> not met an astrologer like him, of all the

> > > > >> astrologers i have met and

> > > > >> interacted he is the only guy I know who can

> > > > >> UNLOCK a chart. He was

> > > > >> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and

> > > > >> I have vowed not to take

> > > > >> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not

> > > > >> deserve him. I always

> > > > >> say if people on the lists from india knew

> > > > >> astrology they would not have

> > > > >> spare time to write here as flock of people

> > > > >> would be outside their

> > > > >> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100

> > > > >> people and he drives the

> > > > >> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his

> > > > >> parampara is of more than 14

> > > > >> generations, at that time the world did not even

> > > > >> know of Outer Planets.

> > > > >> I asked him to share the shlokas from his

> > > > >> family, he said can u or

> > > > >> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability

> > > > >> to decode it, whats the

> > > > >> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only

> > > > >> when u see the shloka u

> > > > >> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique

> > > > >> only then u would learn

> > > > >> astrology' - he told me.

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern

students

> > > > including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must

> > not mess

> > > > with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues. many

> > of these

> > > > traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for variety of

> > reasons,

> > > > including the polluted generation.

> > > >

> > > > >> I have begged him to come out with a book but he

> > > > >> refuses, this vidya is

> > > > >> only misused by egoists so he does not want a

> > > > >> curse of sharing that

> > > > >> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi

> > > > >> Brahmin btw, my efforts

> > > > >> still continue in him bringing at least a basic

> > > > >> book.

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will be

> > blessing

> > > > for the jyotish students.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a

> > > > >> deeper sense, we

> > > > >> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi

> > > > >> (Devekerelam) & to a certain

> > > > >> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict

> > > > consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying

on such

> > > > literature, which does not deliver in current form.

> > > >

> > > > >> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to

> > > > >> walk into america as per

> > > > >> most senior astrologers in america had seen the

> > > > >> text of Vasistha Nadi

> > > > >> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all

> > > > >> know how fantastic a

> > > > >> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never

> > > > >> be born again. People on

> > > > >> lists will sit here whole life arguing that

> > > > >> Outer Planets are not

> > > > >> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to

> > > > >> test it on 100 charts

> > > > >> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise

> > > > >> what we are missing and

> > > > >> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if

> > > > >> we know everything that

> > > > >> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas

> > > > >> well. If we read first 2

> > > > >> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is

> > > > >> trying to say (which is

> > > > >> understandable as it is in clear english) we

> > > > >> would know that he is not

> > > > >> going to reveal everything that is astrology at

> > > > >> all so its useless to

> > > > >> hide behind his back.

> > > > >> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen

> > > > >> to what people say, this

> > > > >> Uranus works and it works too well'.

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an

experienced

> > > > astrologer !!

> > > >

> > > > >> 9) People say that the issue is not if

> > > > >> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah

> > > > >> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it

> > > > >> takes only 1 yr, can we

> > > > >> say with all honesty that we understand how

> > > > >> Jupiter is going to give

> > > > >> results in a chart or say any other planet in

> > > > >> jyotish - ofcourse not we

> > > > >> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -

> > > > >> this is the truth and

> > > > >> can be found out when we meet masters who had

> > > > >> some knowledge of this

> > > > >> science.

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets can

> > clarify

> > > > the application through case studies.

> > > >

> > > > >> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which

> > > > >> requires Bhakti of the highest

> > > > >> order and people who are argumentative, have

> > > > >> anger, have jealousy, want

> > > > >> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame

> > > > >> or getting themselves

> > > > >> shown as scholars will never understand it in

> > > > >> this or any lifetime. Even

> > > > >> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the

> > > > >> above criteria, I guess they

> > > > >> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and

> > > > >> not common man, anyone

> > > > >> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n

> > > > >> met masters will realise

> > > > >> this statement as he will often find this answer

> > > > >> staring right at his

> > > > >> face.

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] very well said.

> > > >

> > > > >> I appreciate people like u who have tested the

> > > > >> outer planets in over

> > > > >> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who

> > > > >> only talk talk talk or

> > > > >> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the

> > > > >> shlokas that we know on

> > > > >> 100 charts.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> To end this,' We do not understand what the

> > > > >> sages have said so getting

> > > > >> into arguments or discussions and says Sages

> > > > >> said this or that is

> > > > >> Absurdity'

> > > > >>

> > > >

> > > > [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit)

> > barriers.

> > > > This shloka business is ruining jyotish.

> > > >

> > > > regards / Prafulla

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

July 7, 2007

OM Datta GuruDear Prafulla Bhai,I rarely read mails but when i see this kind of statement I must bow down to ur maturity. I wish we all had this, maybe we do not have spiritual gurus this is the case I guess.===Just because I / others do not know its application - can

not be ground for outright rejection.===Kind regards,Sunil JohnMumbaiDear Jai Maharaj ji

Very interesting post.

But how many astrologers would be able to come out of shloka business and read with open mind !!

Though, I may not know the exact techniques of their

interpretation, but I have also observed few good astrologers using

outer planets very well. and if they are able to use - may imply the

signficance. Just because I / others do not know its application - can

not be ground for outright rejection.

regards / Prafulla Ganghttp://www.prafulla.net"Men who never get carried away should be."

July 7, 2007

OM Datta GuruDear Prafulla Bhai,Thanks for ur kind n most mature remarks. It seems u do a lot of thinking rather than parrot reading in jyotish.My reply below> [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from

the panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang

well.SJ: Well that is fantastic, I did not know that, though two years back we had some discussion on Jyotish Group on Panchangkarta. > [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many

years back that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was

also using them brilliantly.SJ: I did not know that KP used outer planets thats fantastic, I am sure the rays of these planets have become more pronounced on earth by now.> [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict

consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such

literature, which does not deliver in current form.SJ: so true, I always have an open challenge to anyone who wants to predict, i always keep my goli charts that mentor has given, even the Top Most writers have failed on those charts. Now mentor calls them Toap (in hindi) ))> [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern

students including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we

must not mess with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good

clues. many of these traditionalists will not reveal their techniques,

for variety of reasons, including the polluted generation.SJ: Sir the main drawback is the polluted generation who has a Big Mouth, now in the above case the particular jyotish does not teach to his son, says lakshan is not there. This is the strictness the astrologer follows so u can imagine will he teach the current breed of internet astrologers.> [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit) barriers. This shloka business is ruining jyotish.SJ: Real true Sir, real jyotish died long back it is very evident.best wishesNow I must sign offkind regardsSunil John Mumbai , Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:>> Dear Sunil John ji> > I must whole heartedly thank you for your excellent post. Please read my answer:> > >> > >> Dear Robert,> >> Though I had walked off this list long back due> >> to the racist remark but> >> was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u> >> are a genuine seeker of> >> this shastra. This mail is not intended just for> >> u :-> >> I feel we have a different problem its not about> >> whether Outer Planets were written by our sages> > but do we have the> >> Open Mind to understand> >> jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets> >> behave differently in> >> different yugas (clues to this have been given> >> in many old books), so> >> should we alter our thinking.> >> > >> 1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient> >> books so debating if outer> >> planets were written in the old books is> >> fruitless especially since> >> there are hundreds of books in libraries and at> >> homes which are yet to> >> be translated. Even the few nadis with me are> >> gathering dust though i> >> have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to> >> translate it and they are> >> unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work> >> is meant for everyone> >> e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had> >> almost finished Bhrigu> >> Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has> >> faced unsurmountable> >> problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had> >> said all works aside and> >> Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.> >> > >> 2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers> >> this must be taken in> >> another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs> >> strength & weakness first> >> (this is not meant to demean him) - one of his> >> own mentor in mundane> >> astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to> >> use Outer Planets> >> fantastically in his predictions and is till> >> date one of the greatest> >> predictors of mundane astrology.> >> > > [Prafulla] well - late Hardeo Sharma learnt to make panchang from the panchangkarta family - i know. He perhaps - marketed his panchang well.> > >> 3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget> >> the shloka business see> >> what works that is True astrology, so running> >> behind shlokas for it is> >> useless. Then even if shlokas are presented> >> whats the use, can anyone> >> today interpret it, I have not found a true> >> knowledgeable guy in> >> sanskrit.> > [Prafulla] This shloka business is spoiling the knowledge base. As you have rightly pointed out - the planet's effects also need to be taken differently in current age. Not all sages even agreed for any interpretation - so by referring shloka - we may reach to the same point - where we start from (of course at some stage of journey). The best proof will always be its application. If it works - we must induct in our reading model, else we must ignore it.> > >> > >> 4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed> >> scholars who have zero> >> level of scientific mind and do not test any> >> principle. thousands of> >> shlokas do not work what do they have to say to> >> that. So should we> >> discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote> >> it. Rishis do not agree to> >> the effects of even something as a planet in a> >> house, different opinions> >> among rishis> >> > > [Prafulla] very well expressed> > >> 5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says> >> was one of the most> >> fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY> >> every event, he used to> >> use the Outer Planets.> >> > > [Prafulla] Very interesting. I was told by a KP follower many years back that even KP was using the outer planets. Late MC Jain was also using them brilliantly.> > >> 6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who> >> was brought up in a> >> tradition where books from Lopi Script were> >> handed down to him, for 25> >> yrs he was taught astrology and only after that> >> he was asked to see his> >> first chart & practice jyotish (the money he> >> takes is in form of> >> donation, he does not see the amount given & > >> donates it full). I have> >> not met an astrologer like him, of all the> >> astrologers i have met and> >> interacted he is the only guy I know who can> >> UNLOCK a chart. He was> >> introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and> >> I have vowed not to take> >> current breed of astrologers to him, they do not> >> deserve him. I always> >> say if people on the lists from india knew> >> astrology they would not have> >> spare time to write here as flock of people> >> would be outside their> >> house. This man has a daily visitation of 100> >> people and he drives the> >> rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his> >> parampara is of more than 14> >> generations, at that time the world did not even> >> know of Outer Planets.> >> I asked him to share the shlokas from his> >> family, he said can u or> >> anyone read them, then do u all have the ability> >> to decode it, whats the> >> use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only> >> when u see the shloka u> >> would believe, forget shlokas test the technique> >> only then u would learn> >> astrology' - he told me.> >> > > [Prafulla] well, this is the biggest drawback of all modern students including me. Since we lack the proper sanskrit knowledge, we must not mess with it. Rather - must rely on experts to give us good clues. many of these traditionalists will not reveal their techniques, for variety of reasons, including the polluted generation.> > >> I have begged him to come out with a book but he> >> refuses, this vidya is> >> only misused by egoists so he does not want a> >> curse of sharing that> >> knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi> >> Brahmin btw, my efforts> >> still continue in him bringing at least a basic> >> book.> > [Prafulla] if he may decide to publish his techniques, it will be blessing for the jyotish students.> >> > >> 7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a> >> deeper sense, we> >> realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi> >> (Devekerelam) & to a certain> >> extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g> >> > > [Prafulla] Most astrologers swearing by BPHS - can not predict consistently from BPHS itself. So what is the point in relying on such literature, which does not deliver in current form.> > >> 8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to> >> walk into america as per> >> most senior astrologers in america had seen the> >> text of Vasistha Nadi> >> wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all> >> know how fantastic a> >> predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never> >> be born again. People on> >> lists will sit here whole life arguing that> >> Outer Planets are not> >> mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to> >> test it on 100 charts> >> with an open mind. Only when we test we realise> >> what we are missing and> >> alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if> >> we know everything that> >> he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas> >> well. If we read first 2> >> chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is> >> trying to say (which is> >> understandable as it is in clear english) we> >> would know that he is not> >> going to reveal everything that is astrology at> >> all so its useless to> >> hide behind his back.> >> Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen> >> to what people say, this> >> Uranus works and it works too well'.> >> > > [Prafulla] a very valuable and priceless advise from an experienced astrologer !!> > > >> 9) People say that the issue is not if> >> outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah> >> blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it> >> takes only 1 yr, can we> >> say with all honesty that we understand how> >> Jupiter is going to give> >> results in a chart or say any other planet in> >> jyotish - ofcourse not we> >> do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is -> >> this is the truth and> >> can be found out when we meet masters who had> >> some knowledge of this> >> science.> >> > > [Prafulla] well, experienced astrologers with outer planets can clarify the application through case studies.> > >> 10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which> >> requires Bhakti of the highest> >> order and people who are argumentative, have> >> anger, have jealousy, want> >> to put others down, have ego, have need for fame> >> or getting themselves> >> shown as scholars will never understand it in> >> this or any lifetime. Even> >> Parasara and other sages have mentioned the> >> above criteria, I guess they> >> were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and> >> not common man, anyone> >> who has travelled in search of true jyotish n> >> met masters will realise> >> this statement as he will often find this answer> >> staring right at his> >> face.> >> > > > [Prafulla] very well said.> > >> I appreciate people like u who have tested the> >> outer planets in over> >> hundred charts, u are far better off than us who> >> only talk talk talk or> >> hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the> >> shlokas that we know on> >> 100 charts.> >> > >> To end this,' We do not understand what the> >> sages have said so getting> >> into arguments or discussions and says Sages> >> said this or that is> >> Absurdity'> >> > > [Prafulla] it is all the more complex for language (sanskrit) barriers. This shloka business is ruining jyotish.> > > regards / Prafulla>

Sign In

Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to Hindus in 5,661 BCE (Was: To Robert Koch)

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Support the Ashram

Join Groups

Top Downloads