Lord Rama's navami tithi - a weird idea

[Guest guest]

Hi Sree and the others,

 

Rama was born shortly after the vernal equinox, which is springtime,

thus the reference to vasanta ritu. This equinox presently occurs

somewhere in Pisces and could well have when Rama was born.

 

And if the Chaitra month is reckoned from an amavasya that occurs

circa 24 Pi, in 9 tithis thereon, Su will have stepped into Ar and Mo

into Punarvasu.

 

Like I said yesterday, this is one wacko way of looking at it (:

 

+++

[Guest guest]

The amavasya could have occured in Revati.

 

Kishore patnaik

 

, " vernalagnia "

<vernalagnia wrote:

>

> Hi Sree and the others,

>

> Rama was born shortly after the vernal equinox, which is springtime,

> thus the reference to vasanta ritu. This equinox presently occurs

> somewhere in Pisces and could well have when Rama was born.

>

> And if the Chaitra month is reckoned from an amavasya that occurs

> circa 24 Pi, in 9 tithis thereon, Su will have stepped into Ar and Mo

> into Punarvasu.

>

> Like I said yesterday, this is one wacko way of looking at it (:

>

> +++

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The point Sreenadh is making is that Sun exaltation and moon in punarvasu can not be navami. All other criteria could be made to work but the tithi is a mystery.

 

What is the actual word used for exaltation in the shloka. Uccha (Exalted) , Swauchha ( Own sign or exaltation sign) In case of sun though only exalted would apply as own sign will put in in simha...So again we have a problem of tithi.

 

 

A puzzle indeed. May be sign definitions were not the same as we use today ???

 

....

On 6/10/06, vernalagnia <vernalagnia wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Sree and the others,Rama was born shortly after the vernal equinox, which is springtime,thus the reference to vasanta ritu. This equinox presently occurssomewhere in Pisces and could well have when Rama was born.

And if the Chaitra month is reckoned from an amavasya that occurscirca 24 Pi, in 9 tithis thereon, Su will have stepped into Ar and Mointo Punarvasu.Like I said yesterday, this is one wacko way of looking at it (:

+++

[Guest guest]

, Panditji

<navagraha wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> The point Sreenadh is making is that Sun exaltation and moon in

punarvasu

> can not be navami. All other criteria could be made to work but the

tithi is a mystery.

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

My point was simple. If an amavasya occurs somewhere around 24 Pisces

(similar to April 2005), on navami tithi, you *can* have Sun in

exaltation in Aries + Moon in punarvasu. At this moment, I truly can't

see why not.

 

+++

 

 

 

> What is the actual word used for exaltation in the shloka. Uccha

(Exalted) ,

> Swauchha ( Own sign or exaltation sign) In case of sun though only

exalted

> would apply as own sign will put in in simha...So again we have a

problem of

> tithi.

>

> A puzzle indeed. May be sign definitions were not the same as we use

today

> ???

>

> ...

>

>

> On 6/10/06, vernalagnia <vernalagnia wrote:

> >

> > Hi Sree and the others,

> >

> > Rama was born shortly after the vernal equinox, which is springtime,

> > thus the reference to vasanta ritu. This equinox presently occurs

> > somewhere in Pisces and could well have when Rama was born.

> >

> > And if the Chaitra month is reckoned from an amavasya that occurs

> > circa 24 Pi, in 9 tithis thereon, Su will have stepped into Ar and Mo

> > into Punarvasu.

> >

> > Like I said yesterday, this is one wacko way of looking at it (:

> >

> > +++

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, sree nadh

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Pandit ji,

> Shall we put it like this.

> * Think that once Chaitra covered Asvini, Revati, and

> 1/4 th of UBha. (There is some base, and supporting

> evidence, for this argument)

> * Think that Exaltation/Debilitation was considered

> related to months like months like Chaita as well.

> * The above two points will make Sun in Chaitra,

> exalted, though not in its extream degree of

> exaltation.

> * Think that Sun was in Chaitra month, but Ravati

> Nakshatra. This makes sun exalted (Since

> exaltation/debilitation was also correlated with

> months like Chaitra), and Navami Tithi is possible!

> * In essence it would mean, that there is nothing

> wrong with the sloka. Yes, of course we need to think

> that `Vakpati' means Ju and not Me. This would also

> mean that the position of Me, Ra and Ke are not

> mentioned in the sloka.

> What would be your observations on the above

> possibility.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

 

 

Dear Sree,

 

Sorry to repeat myself but even the suggestion that the onset of

Chaitra must be reckoned from 0 Aries, or vice-versa, shakes the basis

of vedic astro itself. We use nirayana rasichakra, not sayana!

 

Why are we revisiting this central premise itself?

 

+++

[Guest guest]

Dear Verna ji,

There is something wrong with your maths. You need

to recheck, and study how Tithi is calculated.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

--- vernalagnia <vernalagnia wrote:

 

> ,

> Panditji

> <navagraha wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > The point Sreenadh is making is that Sun

> exaltation and moon in

> punarvasu

> > can not be navami. All other criteria could be

> made to work but the

> tithi is a mystery.

>

>

> Dear Sir,

>

> My point was simple. If an amavasya occurs somewhere

> around 24 Pisces

> (similar to April 2005), on navami tithi, you *can*

> have Sun in

> exaltation in Aries + Moon in punarvasu. At this

> moment, I truly can't

> see why not.

>

> +++

>

>

>

> > What is the actual word used for exaltation in the

> shloka. Uccha

> (Exalted) ,

> > Swauchha ( Own sign or exaltation sign) In case of

> sun though only

> exalted

> > would apply as own sign will put in in simha...So

> again we have a

> problem of

> > tithi.

> >

> > A puzzle indeed. May be sign definitions were not

> the same as we use

> today

> > ???

> >

> > ...

> >

> >

> > On 6/10/06, vernalagnia <vernalagnia wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Sree and the others,

> > >

> > > Rama was born shortly after the vernal equinox,

> which is springtime,

> > > thus the reference to vasanta ritu. This equinox

> presently occurs

> > > somewhere in Pisces and could well have when

> Rama was born.

> > >

> > > And if the Chaitra month is reckoned from an

> amavasya that occurs

> > > circa 24 Pi, in 9 tithis thereon, Su will have

> stepped into Ar and Mo

> > > into Punarvasu.

> > >

> > > Like I said yesterday, this is one wacko way of

> looking at it (:

> > >

> > > +++

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

 

[Guest guest]

, sree nadh

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Verna ji,

> There is something wrong with your maths. You need

> to recheck, and study how Tithi is calculated.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

 

Dear Sree,

 

This can only mean that you're suggesting that tithi is the time taken

by Moon to move 12 degrees from the Sun Is that it?

 

+++

[Guest guest]

, sree nadh

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Verna ji,

 

> The 0 deg Mesha (Aries) was always a fixed point and

> there is no controversies on that between us, since we

> both follow and use Nirayana Rasichakra. But what

> about the months like Chaitra? That was the question,

> I had put forward. Was there a time when Exaltation /

> Debilitation concept was not only used along with

> signs like Mesha, Vrishabha etc but also with Months

> like Chaitra, Visakha etc as well?

 

 

That is way unlikely, Sree. Our antecedents were smarter than us

 

 

> Was there a time when months like Chitra covered a slightly

> different area in sky than the area indicated by Signs like Mesha?

 

 

With a superimposition of the great year against a fixed zodiac,

that's the bleeding obvious, I'd have imagined

 

+++

[Guest guest]

Dear Verna ji,

Tithi has got 2 meaings.

1) It indicates 12 deg in the Zodiac. 360/12 = 30. That is a total of

30 Tithis considering both Suklapaksha and Krihsnapaksha. The Tithi

number is calculated by dividing the longitudinal DIFFERENCE between Su

and Mo with 30.

(Mo - Su)/30 = Tithi.

(Mo + Su)/30 = Nitya Yoga.

 

Both of them are used to understand the rhythmic movement of Su and

Mo, and that is why they are important.

2) The time taken to cover an this area. Thus the statement " tithi is

the time taken by Moon to move 12 degrees from the Sun " also holds

good, and indicates the same as the first statement. This definition of

Tithi is based on the first statement only.

 

It is due to this only your earlier statement of the horoscope of Rama

was wrong. And that was what Panditji (Dr. Ketkar) was pointing

to.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

 

, " vernalagnia "

<vernalagnia wrote:

>

> , sree nadh

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Verna ji,

> > There is something wrong with your maths. You need

> > to recheck, and study how Tithi is calculated.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

>

> Dear Sree,

>

> This can only mean that you're suggesting that tithi is the time taken

> by Moon to move 12 degrees from the Sun Is that it?

>

> +++

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Verna ji,

Please Look at picture in Page number 14 of the new file uploaded in

the file setion of the forum. The document that compares " Babilonian

and Indian Astronomy " . Now what would you say?

The ideas put forward by Subhash Kak ji are very important, since he

points out that the the Rasi names like Mesha, Vrishabha etc were

redived from luni-solar months like Chaitra, Visakha etc. Just look

at that picture, and which Nakshatras the month Chaitra cover in that

picture?

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " vernalagnia "

<vernalagnia wrote:

>

> , sree nadh

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Verna ji,

>

> > The 0 deg Mesha (Aries) was always a fixed point and

> > there is no controversies on that between us, since we

> > both follow and use Nirayana Rasichakra. But what

> > about the months like Chaitra? That was the question,

> > I had put forward. Was there a time when Exaltation /

> > Debilitation concept was not only used along with

> > signs like Mesha, Vrishabha etc but also with Months

> > like Chaitra, Visakha etc as well?

>

>

> That is way unlikely, Sree. Our antecedents were smarter than us

>

>

> > Was there a time when months like Chitra covered a slightly

> > different area in sky than the area indicated by Signs like Mesha?

>

>

> With a superimposition of the great year against a fixed zodiac,

> that's the bleeding obvious, I'd have imagined

>

> +++

>

[Guest guest]

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> It is due to this only your earlier statement of the horoscope of

Rama was wrong. And that was what Panditji (Dr. Ketkar) was pointing

> to.

 

 

I knew it was a weird idea anyway ) Thanks for the clarification.

The only probabilities that remain then are our ancestors having used

(a) sidereal instead of synodic month, which is unlikely, and (b)

unequal nakshatra widths.

 

Or - and here again the suggestion is very obscure - what is stated as

the nakshatra is that of the lagna and not necessarily Moon, although

I confess to never having seen the lagna nakshatra referenced in any

birthchart.

 

+++

[Guest guest]

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Verna ji,

> Please Look at picture in Page number 14 of the new file uploaded in

> the file setion of the forum. The document that compares " Babilonian

> and Indian Astronomy " . Now what would you say?

> The ideas put forward by Subhash Kak ji are very important, since he

> points out that the the Rasi names like Mesha, Vrishabha etc were

> redived from luni-solar months like Chaitra, Visakha etc. Just look

> at that picture, and which Nakshatras the month Chaitra cover in that

> picture?

> Love,

> Sreenadh

 

Hey Sree,

 

Thanks a lot for that. Very educative.

 

I quizzed Subash yesterday (I know him from earlier) about this and he

says, " Traditionally, two different systems have been used in India:

from new-moon to the next (called amanta), or from one full-moon to

the next (purnimanta). Since, one cannot be sure which of these two

was meant, I have considered just one of these to make broader points

related to the system. "

 

His answer doesn't really clear the windscreen but I'll let you know

how it goes, because I won't be letting him off just yet. If you asked

him about the topocentric and sunrise issues, he'll tell you how much

of a pest I can be (;

 

+++

[Guest guest]

Dear Verna ji, I won't appreciate disturbing that very very very knowledgeable soul with our small doubts. He has more work on his plate than he can handle right now. Look at number of subjects into which his knowledge and contributions span! Cryptography, Artificial Intelligence, Ancient Indian History, Mathematics, Linguistics, Quantum physics to site a few! He is a real scientist, and still finds time for such in-depth studies on History! We shouldn't disturb him much, rather try to learn from the vast amount of articles and study material related to his own research and studies he uploaded on the net I feel. It is very very useful to us, and that is why I have provided the link to his site, in the Links section of our forum.

I don't know about the closeness of relation between you and Subhash ji. But I won't appreciate others (including me) sending him mails containing small small doubts, and thus this group causing a distractions in his works and contributions. We should take care not to waste his precious time. If only some doubt is really valid, basic, and in a situation where we feel that only a person like he can shed some light on the historical/astronomical issue, only in such cases we should query him, but even in that situation shouldn’t expect an answer, due to his busy schedule, I feel. If he replies, let us be thankful to his mercy. He is high above us all (contributing through real research in many fields, revolutionizing our understanding of ancient history and knowledgebase of India) and I humbly bow before that great soul. ==> "Traditionally, two different systems have been used in India:from new-moon to the next (called amanta), or from one full-moon tothe next (purnimanta). Since, one cannot be sure which of these twowas meant, I have considered just one of these to make broader pointsrelated to the system." <== But that info is very important. And I thankful to Subhash ji for providing it, and Verna ji for convaying it.

==> > If you asked him about the topocentric and sunrise issues, he'll tell you how much > of a pest I can be (; <== dear verna ji, may be you are really accurate on that. ) I feel really compationate for Subhash ji. Now there is no escape! ) Hugs to Verna ji Love, Sreenadh vernalagnia <vernalagnia wrote: , "Sreenadh"wrote:>> Dear Verna ji,> Please Look at picture in Page number 14 of the new file uploaded in > the file setion of the forum. The document that compares "Babilonian > and Indian Astronomy". Now what would you say? > The ideas put forward by Subhash Kak ji are very important, since he > points out that the the Rasi names like Mesha, Vrishabha etc were > redived from luni-solar months like Chaitra, Visakha etc. Just look > at that picture, and which Nakshatras the month Chaitra cover

in that > picture? > Love,> SreenadhHey Sree,Thanks a lot for that. Very educative.I quizzed Subash yesterday (I know him from earlier) about this and hesays, "Traditionally, two different systems have been used in India:from new-moon to the next (called amanta), or from one full-moon tothe next (purnimanta). Since, one cannot be sure which of these twowas meant, I have considered just one of these to make broader pointsrelated to the system."His answer doesn't really clear the windscreen but I'll let you knowhow it goes, because I won't be letting him off just yet. If you askedhim about the topocentric and sunrise issues, he'll tell you how muchof a pest I can be (;+++