Retro Lagna and Lagna Jump

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Here I give my corrected views on Retro Lagna Issue. (open for

modifications). Actually I am collecting and presenting data from my

previous mails itself, indicating the points where I have erred.

Let us approach the question put forward by vernalagnia ji on the

forum.

1) Texts say that Lagna is the longitude of the horizon that

rises in the East. Than what is this East? If we are in Polar Regions

does it (East) have any meaning?

2) If we cast horoscope for any place in Polar Regions for some

special days, the lagna seems to retrograde, and even Jump to another

point. This is pretty visible with tools like JHora. It is not the

problem caused by the calculation method followed in the software,

but an astronomical problem. How to correlate astrological prediction

system with it?

These are the questions put forward as I understood them. The problem

seemed to be too troublesome as I was not aware of the issues

involved. This message is the result of my understanding till now.

The first question is what are the things Lagna indicate? For sure -

• Lagna is related to the relative angle of revolution to earth.

But if only this was important the ancients would have selected the

celestial equator (equatorial circle) rather than ecliptic. Since

Ecliptic (which indicates the yearly rotation of earth) is

considered –

• Lagna is also related to the relative angle of yearly

rotation of earth.

Lagna covers the complete 360 deg in the equatorial region since each

revolution covers the total 360 deg, and also because the total

portion of the ecliptic is visible from the equatorial region with in

24 hours. But in polar regions the total portion of the ecliptic

is `not visible' and therefore the Lagna `can not' complete 360 deg

revolution with in 24 hours. Means many Signs will not be visible in

polar regions (and can not become Lagna), due to the simple fact that

Rasichakra or Zodiac is the equal (i.e. 30 deg each) division of the

ecliptic. As told earlier as per Rishi horas the clear definition of

lagna would be -

• Lagna is the intersection between ecliptic and the horizon in

the east.

There are two such intersection points – between ecliptic and

horizon. Which of them should be taken as Lagna? Rishi horas clearly

states, the point in the East. That means out of the two points only,

one point, that is the one in `East' should be considered, and the

other should be discarded. Thus our problem melts down to the

question – What is East?

Usually we say that " East is the direction where the sun rises'

and `West is the direction where sun sets " . If we are in northern

pole in June 21st –

• The sun is there in the ecliptic and it is above the horizon

• Ecliptic goes down and cuts the horizon (and so Lagna is

there)

• Earth revolute, Sun goes round us in the sky above horizon

and reaches the same point from where it started, and it is day all

along.

• That means there is no Rising or Setting of Sun, but

still `both the intersection points' of Ecliptic with horizon was

visible all along.

In the same day if we are in southern pole –

• The sun is there in the ecliptic but it is below the horizon

• Ecliptic goes down and cuts the horizon. (and so Lagna is

there)

• Earth revolute Sun goes round us in the sky but below horizon

and so we can not see sun, and it is night all along.

• That means there is no Rising or Setting of Sun, but

still `both the intersection points' of Ecliptic with horizon was

visible all along.

There could be another definition for East. `It is the point 90

degree to the right of North pole, if you are facing North pole'. But

this definition only gives the point of intersection of the

equatorial circle and horizon and is not relevant to us, since in

astrology we are talking about the ecliptic and its equal divisions.

So our east should be a point in the ecliptic for sure. Thus it

becomes clear that in astrology, word `East' should only be used to

distinguish between the two intersections of ecliptic and the

horizon. We just have to determine which of them indicates east.

In equatorial region `East is the point where sun rises' and

therefore there is no room for any doubt. But in polar regions, if

sun is completely above or below horizon this definition fails. Since

depending on our selection of day and hemisphere sun may never rise,

or may never set. So the question is - which of these points should

be selected as east? This question is valid only for polar regions.

If we consider the fact that, Lagna depends on " the relative angle of

revolution of earth, and the relative angle of rotation of earth " ,

then –

• For the northern hemisphere, the intersection point to the

south (nearer to south pole than the other point) is east, and

• For the southern hemisphere, the intersection point to the

north (nearer to north pole than the other point) is east

Would be the proper definitions, I feel, since we are considering the

same axis of earth which is tilted by an angel to the ecliptic. The

points to remember is that –

• We are allowed to select only one intersection point, and are

NOT allowed to interchange this reference point with the other at any

point of time.

• The earth completes a total 360 deg revolution, but even then

all the parts of the ecliptic (thus all the signs) CANNOT be seen

from the poles, since Rasichakra is an equal (360 deg each) division

of the ecliptic. Thus many signs can not become lagna in polar

regions. But since we are considering a single point as reference,

there is " No Lagna Jump " .

• All the signs and houses exist even for people born in polar

regions since Sign/House division is based on Meshadi (Starting point

of Aries) and not based on Lagna.

• " Single point as reference, and not interchanging of points " ,

also means that " Lagna WILL RETROGRADE at times, but WILL NOT JUMP.

• Lagna exists in all polar charts since it is the intersection

point between the ecliptic and the horizon which is visible to people

in equator, north pole and south pole alike.

• In JHora LANGA JUMP is happening, since it defines Lagna as

the rising point (where the declination of the sky increases) among

the two intersection points of ecliptic and horizon, discarding the

fact that whether it is in the east or in the west. Or in other

words, since the definition for east is not clarified.

So the conclusion is that –

• Lagna is the longitude of the intersection point between

ecliptic and horizon to the south for Northern hemisphere.

• Lagna is the longitude of the intersection point between

ecliptic and horizon to the north for Southern hemisphere.

• All the signs and houses exists even for polar charts but all

the signs can not become Lagna. Or in other words only some of the

signs can become lagna in polar charts.

This also indicates the following points-

• Lagna retrograde is a normal phenomenon for polar charts, but

Lagna jump is impossible, if we are considering a single intersection

point as reference.

• The Lagna calculation method followed in JHora for polar

regions becomes acceptable only if we define Asc as the point where

the sky rises above the horizon, and Desc is the point were the sky

sets below the horizon. The Lagna Jump is the wrong result of such a

definition followed.

• Asc, Desc, MC, IC etc are of importance only as per western

astrology. Ancient Indian astrology considered only one point (i.e.

Lagna). All the other points are not at all of any predictive

importance as per ancient Indian astrology. This also points to the

need of liberating Udaya (Rising) or Asta (setting) from the

definition of Lagna.

The Rishi horas are talking Lagna, and not about Asc or Desc. The

meaning of these words Udaya Lagna and Asc and Asta Lagna and Desc

are slightly different. I will explain. The same mathematical point

Lagna is at times called Udaya Lagna and Asta Lagna – why? Why it is

called Udaya Lagna? We used to say that it is because it `rises in

the east'. But there is slight wrong notion associated with it. The

correct view would be - With the rising of each new point of the

ecliptic in the horizon (i.e. Lagna) we feel that the Sun goes high

up in the sky. Actually it is not the point Lagna that is rising,

but the sky. Due to the revolution of earth we feel that it the sky

associated with it (and thus the Sun) rises. Lagna does not rise nor

set. Actually it is the sky (and thus the sun) is the one that rises

and sets. So it is wrong to associate the word Lagna with rising or

setting – it is just the intersection point of ecliptic and horizon

in the east and not connected with rising or setting.

The word `Udaya Lagna' should be considered to have a different

meaning than the word `Lagna' for polar regions. For equatorial

regions `Udaya Lagna' and `Lagna' are the same because both of them

full fill the 3 conditions –

1. It is the intersection point of the ecliptic and horizon in

the east.

2. It is the point where sky rises.

3. It is the point where the sun rises.

But for polar regions the first point " the intersection point of the

ecliptic and horizon in the east " indicates Lagna. Udaya Lagna could

be a different point than this! The word Udaya Lagna could have the

following meaning for polar regions -

 

1) It is the point where the sun rises in the horizon. (But this

definition fails if the sun does not rise, but stays above or below

the horizon)

Actually it is the definition of Udadya Lagna among common flocks is

related to sun only. That is, it is the intersection point of

ecliptic and horizon when the sun Rises (Suryodaya = Rising of Sun).

Similarly the word Asta Lagna noramly means, the intersection point

of the ecliptic and horizon when the Sun sets. (Suryatamaya = Setting

of Sun). Thus the words, Udaya (Rising) and Asta (Setting) is related

to Sun than to Lagna for general population. But as we know, this

definition fails if the sun does not rise, but stays above or below

the horizon. There fore liberating the word Lagna, Udaya Lagna and

Astra Lagna from the wrong notation, of associating it with Sun is

necessary.

2) It is the point where the sky rises. (The word `east' is not

considered here and Lagna would be shifted to the other intersection

point of ecliptic and horizon, if the sky start rising above the

horizon there) This is the definition followed in JHora. This causes

the Lagna Jump.

Here the rising and setting is related to sky. Here Udadya Lagna

means the intersection point of ecliptic and horizon which where sky

rises. Similarly the word Asta Lagna means, the intersection point of

the ecliptic and horizon where sky sets. Thus the words, Udaya

(Rising) and Asta (Setting) is related to sky than to Lagna, which is

defined as a point in the east. See to the fact that the concept

of `East' is totally discarded in this definition. But as we know,

this definition fails causing the Lagna jump. This definition is also

not acceptable since it discards the word `East' from the ancient

definition. There fore liberating the word Lagna, from wrongly

associating it with Udaya (Rising) Astra (Setting) of sky is

necessary.

 

Thus it means that, JHora gives Asc (`Udaya Lagna' as per the

second definition) and not Lagna.

[by the way,

Asc = intersection of ecliptic and horizon where the sky rises

Desc = intersection of ecliptic and horizon where the sky sets. ]

If we follow the definition " Lagna is the intersection point of the

ecliptic and horizon in the east " , dissociating it from rising or

setting of sky, after clearly defining east for polar regions, then –

• Lagna can not jump from Asc to Desc. But should stay in a

single point whether it is Asc or Desc.

• It is the intersection point of the ecliptic and horizon in

the east.

• The word Lagna should be dissociated from the words `Udaya'

(Rising) or Asta (Setting). [Following the above definition of Lagna,

is not connected to Rising or Setting of sky]

Let us stick to the ancient definition " Lagna is the intersection

between ecliptic and the horizon in the east " , properly define east

and thus solve the situation. That seems to be the right approach. So

the conclusion is that –

If we consider the fact that, Lagna depends on " the relative angle of

revolution of earth, and the relative angle of rotation of earth " ,

and thus considering the definition given to east, Lagna means –

• For the northern hemisphere, Lagna is the intersection point

between the ecliptic and the horizon to the south (nearer to south

pole than the other point), and

• For the southern hemisphere, Lagna is the intersection point

between the ecliptic and the horizon to the north (nearer to north

pole than the other point).

I think, this solves the problem of Lagna Jump, and corrects the

erroneous statement of `all lagna (all signs) rising in polar

regions' I have made in my previous mail.

If somebody feels that, still errors reside in this message,

please correct me, so that I could learn and understand more. I will

try to look in to these issues by quoting the Rishi hora slokas in

another mail.

Love,

Sreenadh