Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Dear vernalagnia ji, Chandrahari ji, Vijayadas ji, and All, Let us approach the question put forward by vernalagnia ji on the forum. 1) Texts say that Lagna is the longitude of the horizon that rises in the East. Than what is this East? If we are in Polar Regions does it (East) have any meaning? 2) If we cast horoscope for any place in Polar Regions for some special days, the lagna seems to retrograde! This is pretty visible with tools like JHora. It is not the problem caused by the calculation method followed in the software, but an astronomical problem. How to correlate astrological prediction system with it? These are the questions put forward as I understood them. The problem seemed to be too troublesome as I was not aware of the issues involved. Only one thing I was sure about – • Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth This indicates that it should cover the complete 360 deg, since each revolution covers the total 360 deg. Except this simple logic the intricacies involved where unknown to me. Vijayadas Pradeep ji has provided a good input by providing a link! It was – http://hem.bredband.net/ivawil/program/polar/polarchart8.htm Most of the things vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji says goes above my head – It seems that I am not intelligent enough to understand all that. But the following I could understand – • Lagna is the intersection between ecliptic and the horizon in the east. It is also usually known as ascendant since it `rises' in the east in the equatorial region. Out of the 2 intersection points of these circles, one is known as Asc and the other is known as Desc. So Asc/Desc axis is very important and the difference between these two intersection points is usually 180 deg. • MC is the intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian circle. It is the maximum declination point of Sun (Am I correct?). Out of the 2 intersection points of these circles, one is known as MC and the other IC. So MC/IC axis is very important and the difference between these two is intersection points is usually 180 deg. 1) What is East? Shall we define it as – • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon towards the south This would also mean that if the followers of various house division systems are considering the MC, then he intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian towards the south should be considered as MC for polar regions. (This concept of MC is of not much use to us since we consider sign and house as the same) 2) Lagna This essentially means that – • Lagna is the intersection point to the south between ecliptic and the horizon. I think this or a similar definition of Lagna based on the fact that " Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth " , will solve both the problem of `Lagna Retrograde' and `Lagna Jump'. But since I am not proficient in astronomy, I am still not sure - 1) Does such a definition of Lagna solve the problem? Or what are the new problems that may emerge? 2) Is there any mathematical method to calculate MC first and then calculate Lagna using it? 3) Does it not indicate that the system followed by JHora for Lagna calculation for polar regions are wrong? 4) When Asc/Desc axis and MC/IC axis coincide for polar regions, there is no distance between Asc and MC. So, for the followers of various house systems - houses 10, 11, and 12 should be regarded as non-existent because their cusps occupy the same point of the zodiac and thus the cover 0°00'00 " of the zodiac. The same applies for houses 4, 5, and 6. This also indicates that, how erroneous the various house systems that consider houses as different from signs are. This is what I could assimilate. I wait for more inputs and clarifications from vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji. And request them to clarify my sincere doubts. P.S. 1: Hope I didn't uttered some nonsense due to my ignorance of the subject. With some fear in heart I present it before all – Hope there won't be any thing of that sort. 2 : It seems that the only thing I am sure about is " Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth " . What ever you do with maths (of which I am afraid of), the calculated lagna should reflect the 360 deg revolution of earth. Love, Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Dear All, I had downloaded the Stellarium 0.7.1 free software from net and installed it today. It is available at http://www. Stellarium.org. It is a very good software that gives us a real time view of the movement of zodiac, planets and sun. You can also adjust the time speed as per your requirement. On adjusting the location properly I could see that for extreme polar regions the sun never sets (goes below horizon) for certain days and does not rise above horizon for certain days! So my definition for the east: • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon towards the south Miserably fails! But if a similar definition is given for MC it holds, that is – • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian towards the south is called MC. So either we should – • Calculate Lagna based on MC for polar regions Or • Calculate Lagna based on declination of the Sun. Because if we consider extreme polar regions then it seems that there is no intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon! As chandrahari stated – " There are no directions at the North Pole, as East cannot be fixed. Day is decided by the declination of Sun " If the sun just circles round the sky, above the horizon, then about what rising and setting of sun, and what east and west we are going to talk about?! Because common definition is that `East is the direction where sun rises' and `West is the direction were sun sets'. In polar regions both are same, and therefore, East = West. The question arises is – • Should we need to consider that since MC is 90 deg away from Lagna longitude (for equatorial regions) the same (or similar) concept should be applied while calculating Lagna for polar regions? • Or should we consider the point of Maximum declination and minimum declination for the sun and take the half of it as the Lagna longitude? I wonder what we are going to do when there is no intersection point between ecliptic and horizon at some extreme polar regions! But even at this state, one thing is clear – • Lagna should represent the relative angle of rotation of earth (what ever you do)! What the sidhantic texts say? What are the related concepts and mathematic solutions available? It is turning out to be even more interesting! Sorry, but the truth is that I fails to comprehend the words of Vermalingia ji and Chandrahari ji, and others could happen it with my words and doubts as well. It is their maths or approach I don't know what I am afraid of – These are all just undigested – yes, it is all due to my illiteracy in the subject discussed. P.S: Don't take seriously my words in such issues – I am not at all good in astronomy. It is the joy and doubts of a child who uncounted a new interesting subject. I am just trying to digest it all. General definitions: Lagna = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon in east direction. MC = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian circle above the horizon How ever any astronomer is changing the definition of Lagna for polar regions, " it should represent the relative angle of rotation of earth " , only that I know. Because Lagna is supposed to be a tool to study the movement, revolution of earth. So Lagna `should not jump' for sure. Love, Sreenadh , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear vernalagnia ji, Chandrahari ji, Vijayadas ji, and All, > Let us approach the question put forward by vernalagnia ji on the > forum. > 1) Texts say that Lagna is the longitude of the horizon that > rises in the East. Than what is this East? If we are in Polar Regions > does it (East) have any meaning? > 2) If we cast horoscope for any place in Polar Regions for some > special days, the lagna seems to retrograde! This is pretty visible > with tools like JHora. It is not the problem caused by the > calculation method followed in the software, but an astronomical > problem. How to correlate astrological prediction system with it? > These are the questions put forward as I understood them. The > problem seemed to be too troublesome as I was not aware of the issues > involved. Only one thing I was sure about – > • Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth > This indicates that it should cover the complete 360 deg, since each > revolution covers the total 360 deg. Except this simple logic the > intricacies involved where unknown to me. Vijayadas Pradeep ji has > provided a good input by providing a link! It was – > http://hem.bredband.net/ivawil/program/polar/polarchart8.htm > Most of the things vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji says goes above > my head – It seems that I am not intelligent enough to understand all > that. > But the following I could understand – > • Lagna is the intersection between ecliptic and the horizon in > the east. > It is also usually known as ascendant since it `rises' in the east in > the equatorial region. Out of the 2 intersection points of these > circles, one is known as Asc and the other is known as Desc. So > Asc/Desc axis is very important and the difference between these two > intersection points is usually 180 deg. > • MC is the intersection point between the ecliptic and the > meridian circle. > It is the maximum declination point of Sun (Am I correct?). Out of > the 2 intersection points of these circles, one is known as MC and > the other IC. So MC/IC axis is very important and the difference > between these two is intersection points is usually 180 deg. > 1) What is East? > Shall we define it as – > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > towards the south > This would also mean that if the followers of various house division > systems are considering the MC, then he intersection point between > the ecliptic and the meridian towards the south should be considered > as MC for polar regions. (This concept of MC is of not much use to us > since we consider sign and house as the same) > 2) Lagna > This essentially means that – > • Lagna is the intersection point to the south between ecliptic > and the horizon. > I think this or a similar definition of Lagna based on the fact > that " Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth " , > will solve both the problem of `Lagna Retrograde' and `Lagna Jump'. > But since I am not proficient in astronomy, I am still not sure - > 1) Does such a definition of Lagna solve the problem? Or what > are the new problems that may emerge? > 2) Is there any mathematical method to calculate MC first and > then calculate Lagna using it? > 3) Does it not indicate that the system followed by JHora for > Lagna calculation for polar regions are wrong? > 4) When Asc/Desc axis and MC/IC axis coincide for polar regions, > there is no distance between Asc and MC. So, for the followers of > various house systems - houses 10, 11, and 12 should be regarded as > non-existent because their cusps occupy the same point of the zodiac > and thus the cover 0°00'00 " of the zodiac. The same applies for > houses 4, 5, and 6. This also indicates that, how erroneous the > various house systems that consider houses as different from signs > are. > This is what I could assimilate. I wait for more inputs and > clarifications from vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji. And request > them to clarify my sincere doubts. > P.S. 1: Hope I didn't uttered some nonsense due to my ignorance of > the subject. With some fear in heart I present it before all – > Hope there won't be any thing of that sort. > 2 : It seems that the only thing I am sure about is " Lagna indicates > the relative angle of revolution to earth " . What ever you do with > maths (of which I am afraid of), the calculated lagna should reflect > the 360 deg revolution of earth. > Love, > Sreenadh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Dear All, I have the feeling that, if the Rishis introduced the concept of Lagna to study the revolution of earth, and its influence in birth chart, then, their definition of Lagna is valid only for equatorial regions. As we know the popular definition is – Lagna = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon in east direction. Even though this definition may be acceptable for Equatorial regions, for polar regions we need to change this definition in such a way that there too it reflects the angle of revolution of earth in a successful way. Otherwise instead of taking `the intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon' we should frame our prediction system based on `the ecliptic and the meridian' or calculate the Lagna from there of. I don't know to what extend this thought valid. It is just a passing thought. I also fear that I have already uttered some sheer nonsense may be by the words – " intersection point between ecliptic and horizon at some extreme polar regions " etc. or may be by the definition of Lagna itself. I don't know! Dear Hari please correct and guide me... It seems that I am almost lost in the wild in such subjects – It is not my area! Better I should keep quite and listen to others, and try to learn more. Love, Sreenadh , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear All, > I had downloaded the Stellarium 0.7.1 free software from net and > installed it today. It is available at http://www. Stellarium.org. It > is a very good software that gives us a real time view of the > movement of zodiac, planets and sun. You can also adjust the time > speed as per your requirement. On adjusting the location properly I > could see that for extreme polar regions the sun never sets (goes > below horizon) for certain days and does not rise above horizon for > certain days! So my definition for the east: > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > towards the south > Miserably fails! But if a similar definition is given for MC it > holds, that is – > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian > towards the south is called MC. > So either we should – > • Calculate Lagna based on MC for polar regions Or > • Calculate Lagna based on declination of the Sun. > Because if we consider extreme polar regions then it seems that there > is no intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon! As > chandrahari stated – " There are no directions at the North Pole, as > East cannot be fixed. Day is decided by the declination of Sun " If > the sun just circles round the sky, above the horizon, then about > what rising and setting of sun, and what east and west we are going > to talk about?! Because common definition is that `East is the > direction where sun rises' and `West is the direction were sun > sets'. In polar regions both are same, and therefore, East = West. > The question arises is – > • Should we need to consider that since MC is 90 deg away from > Lagna longitude (for equatorial regions) the same (or similar) > concept should be applied while calculating Lagna for polar regions? > • Or should we consider the point of Maximum declination and > minimum declination for the sun and take the half of it as the Lagna > longitude? > I wonder what we are going to do when there is no intersection > point between ecliptic and horizon at some extreme polar regions! But > even at this state, one thing is clear – > • Lagna should represent the relative angle of rotation of > earth (what ever you do)! > What the sidhantic texts say? What are the related concepts and > mathematic solutions available? It is turning out to be even more > interesting! > Sorry, but the truth is that I fails to comprehend the words > of Vermalingia ji and Chandrahari ji, and others could happen it with > my words and doubts as well. It is their maths or approach I don't > know what I am afraid of – These are all just undigested – yes, it is > all due to my illiteracy in the subject discussed. > > P.S: Don't take seriously my words in such issues – I am not at all > good in astronomy. It is the joy and doubts of a child who uncounted > a new interesting subject. I am just trying to digest it all. > > General definitions: > Lagna = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon in > east direction. > MC = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian > circle above the horizon > How ever any astronomer is changing the definition of Lagna > for polar regions, " it should represent the relative angle of > rotation of earth " , only that I know. Because Lagna is supposed to > be a tool to study the movement, revolution of earth. So > Lagna `should not jump' for sure. > Love, > Sreenadh > > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear vernalagnia ji, Chandrahari ji, Vijayadas ji, and All, > > Let us approach the question put forward by vernalagnia ji on > the > > forum. > > 1) Texts say that Lagna is the longitude of the horizon that > > rises in the East. Than what is this East? If we are in Polar > Regions > > does it (East) have any meaning? > > 2) If we cast horoscope for any place in Polar Regions for some > > special days, the lagna seems to retrograde! This is pretty visible > > with tools like JHora. It is not the problem caused by the > > calculation method followed in the software, but an astronomical > > problem. How to correlate astrological prediction system with it? > > These are the questions put forward as I understood them. The > > problem seemed to be too troublesome as I was not aware of the > issues > > involved. Only one thing I was sure about – > > • Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth > > This indicates that it should cover the complete 360 deg, since > each > > revolution covers the total 360 deg. Except this simple logic the > > intricacies involved where unknown to me. Vijayadas Pradeep ji has > > provided a good input by providing a link! It was – > > http://hem.bredband.net/ivawil/program/polar/polarchart8.htm > > Most of the things vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji says goes > above > > my head – It seems that I am not intelligent enough to understand > all > > that. > > But the following I could understand – > > • Lagna is the intersection between ecliptic and the horizon in > > the east. > > It is also usually known as ascendant since it `rises' in the east > in > > the equatorial region. Out of the 2 intersection points of these > > circles, one is known as Asc and the other is known as Desc. So > > Asc/Desc axis is very important and the difference between these > two > > intersection points is usually 180 deg. > > • MC is the intersection point between the ecliptic and the > > meridian circle. > > It is the maximum declination point of Sun (Am I correct?). Out of > > the 2 intersection points of these circles, one is known as MC and > > the other IC. So MC/IC axis is very important and the difference > > between these two is intersection points is usually 180 deg. > > 1) What is East? > > Shall we define it as – > > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > > towards the south > > This would also mean that if the followers of various house > division > > systems are considering the MC, then he intersection point between > > the ecliptic and the meridian towards the south should be > considered > > as MC for polar regions. (This concept of MC is of not much use to > us > > since we consider sign and house as the same) > > 2) Lagna > > This essentially means that – > > • Lagna is the intersection point to the south between ecliptic > > and the horizon. > > I think this or a similar definition of Lagna based on the fact > > that " Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth " , > > will solve both the problem of `Lagna Retrograde' and `Lagna Jump'. > > But since I am not proficient in astronomy, I am still not sure - > > 1) Does such a definition of Lagna solve the problem? Or what > > are the new problems that may emerge? > > 2) Is there any mathematical method to calculate MC first and > > then calculate Lagna using it? > > 3) Does it not indicate that the system followed by JHora for > > Lagna calculation for polar regions are wrong? > > 4) When Asc/Desc axis and MC/IC axis coincide for polar regions, > > there is no distance between Asc and MC. So, for the followers of > > various house systems - houses 10, 11, and 12 should be regarded as > > non-existent because their cusps occupy the same point of the > zodiac > > and thus the cover 0°00'00 " of the zodiac. The same applies for > > houses 4, 5, and 6. This also indicates that, how erroneous the > > various house systems that consider houses as different from signs > > are. > > This is what I could assimilate. I wait for more inputs and > > clarifications from vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji. And request > > them to clarify my sincere doubts. > > P.S. 1: Hope I didn't uttered some nonsense due to my ignorance of > > the subject. With some fear in heart I present it before all – > > Hope there won't be any thing of that sort. > > 2 : It seems that the only thing I am sure about is " Lagna > indicates > > the relative angle of revolution to earth " . What ever you do with > > maths (of which I am afraid of), the calculated lagna should > reflect > > the 360 deg revolution of earth. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Dear All, I could be 100% wrong....but thought i could give my 2 paise on this based on geography lessons in school (many long years ago). The meridian is a mathematical line which determines time. The declination of the earth determines the length of day and night. Even though the sun is above the horizon (as a result of declination), the eastern point could (perhaps) still be determined on the basis of the meridian. All the places from the equator to the poles will share the same time....the same eastern point....even though the sun / zodiac may have already risen / be above the horizon in places 66.6 degress North or South of 0 degrees. In other words, east becomes a mathmatical point related to time??? The only confusion would then arise at the exact degree of the pole where all meridians converge...where speed of rotation is 0??? (Just trying to give my best at a wild guess!) Love, Vinita , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear All, > I had downloaded the Stellarium 0.7.1 free software from net and > installed it today. It is available at http://www. Stellarium.org. It > is a very good software that gives us a real time view of the > movement of zodiac, planets and sun. You can also adjust the time > speed as per your requirement. On adjusting the location properly I > could see that for extreme polar regions the sun never sets (goes > below horizon) for certain days and does not rise above horizon for > certain days! So my definition for the east: > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > towards the south > Miserably fails! But if a similar definition is given for MC it > holds, that is – > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian > towards the south is called MC. > So either we should – > • Calculate Lagna based on MC for polar regions Or > • Calculate Lagna based on declination of the Sun. > Because if we consider extreme polar regions then it seems that there > is no intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon! As > chandrahari stated – " There are no directions at the North Pole, as > East cannot be fixed. Day is decided by the declination of Sun " If > the sun just circles round the sky, above the horizon, then about > what rising and setting of sun, and what east and west we are going > to talk about?! Because common definition is that `East is the > direction where sun rises' and `West is the direction were sun > sets'. In polar regions both are same, and therefore, East = West. > The question arises is – > • Should we need to consider that since MC is 90 deg away from > Lagna longitude (for equatorial regions) the same (or similar) > concept should be applied while calculating Lagna for polar regions? > • Or should we consider the point of Maximum declination and > minimum declination for the sun and take the half of it as the Lagna > longitude? > I wonder what we are going to do when there is no intersection > point between ecliptic and horizon at some extreme polar regions! But > even at this state, one thing is clear – > • Lagna should represent the relative angle of rotation of > earth (what ever you do)! > What the sidhantic texts say? What are the related concepts and > mathematic solutions available? It is turning out to be even more > interesting! > Sorry, but the truth is that I fails to comprehend the words > of Vermalingia ji and Chandrahari ji, and others could happen it with > my words and doubts as well. It is their maths or approach I don't > know what I am afraid of – These are all just undigested – yes, it is > all due to my illiteracy in the subject discussed. > > P.S: Don't take seriously my words in such issues – I am not at all > good in astronomy. It is the joy and doubts of a child who uncounted > a new interesting subject. I am just trying to digest it all. > > General definitions: > Lagna = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon in > east direction. > MC = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian > circle above the horizon > How ever any astronomer is changing the definition of Lagna > for polar regions, " it should represent the relative angle of > rotation of earth " , only that I know. Because Lagna is supposed to > be a tool to study the movement, revolution of earth. So > Lagna `should not jump' for sure. > Love, > Sreenadh > > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear vernalagnia ji, Chandrahari ji, Vijayadas ji, and All, > > Let us approach the question put forward by vernalagnia ji on > the > > forum. > > 1) Texts say that Lagna is the longitude of the horizon that > > rises in the East. Than what is this East? If we are in Polar > Regions > > does it (East) have any meaning? > > 2) If we cast horoscope for any place in Polar Regions for some > > special days, the lagna seems to retrograde! This is pretty visible > > with tools like JHora. It is not the problem caused by the > > calculation method followed in the software, but an astronomical > > problem. How to correlate astrological prediction system with it? > > These are the questions put forward as I understood them. The > > problem seemed to be too troublesome as I was not aware of the > issues > > involved. Only one thing I was sure about – > > • Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth > > This indicates that it should cover the complete 360 deg, since > each > > revolution covers the total 360 deg. Except this simple logic the > > intricacies involved where unknown to me. Vijayadas Pradeep ji has > > provided a good input by providing a link! It was – > > http://hem.bredband.net/ivawil/program/polar/polarchart8.htm > > Most of the things vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji says goes > above > > my head – It seems that I am not intelligent enough to understand > all > > that. > > But the following I could understand – > > • Lagna is the intersection between ecliptic and the horizon in > > the east. > > It is also usually known as ascendant since it `rises' in the east > in > > the equatorial region. Out of the 2 intersection points of these > > circles, one is known as Asc and the other is known as Desc. So > > Asc/Desc axis is very important and the difference between these > two > > intersection points is usually 180 deg. > > • MC is the intersection point between the ecliptic and the > > meridian circle. > > It is the maximum declination point of Sun (Am I correct?). Out of > > the 2 intersection points of these circles, one is known as MC and > > the other IC. So MC/IC axis is very important and the difference > > between these two is intersection points is usually 180 deg. > > 1) What is East? > > Shall we define it as – > > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > > towards the south > > This would also mean that if the followers of various house > division > > systems are considering the MC, then he intersection point between > > the ecliptic and the meridian towards the south should be > considered > > as MC for polar regions. (This concept of MC is of not much use to > us > > since we consider sign and house as the same) > > 2) Lagna > > This essentially means that – > > • Lagna is the intersection point to the south between ecliptic > > and the horizon. > > I think this or a similar definition of Lagna based on the fact > > that " Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth " , > > will solve both the problem of `Lagna Retrograde' and `Lagna Jump'. > > But since I am not proficient in astronomy, I am still not sure - > > 1) Does such a definition of Lagna solve the problem? Or what > > are the new problems that may emerge? > > 2) Is there any mathematical method to calculate MC first and > > then calculate Lagna using it? > > 3) Does it not indicate that the system followed by JHora for > > Lagna calculation for polar regions are wrong? > > 4) When Asc/Desc axis and MC/IC axis coincide for polar regions, > > there is no distance between Asc and MC. So, for the followers of > > various house systems - houses 10, 11, and 12 should be regarded as > > non-existent because their cusps occupy the same point of the > zodiac > > and thus the cover 0°00'00 " of the zodiac. The same applies for > > houses 4, 5, and 6. This also indicates that, how erroneous the > > various house systems that consider houses as different from signs > > are. > > This is what I could assimilate. I wait for more inputs and > > clarifications from vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji. And request > > them to clarify my sincere doubts. > > P.S. 1: Hope I didn't uttered some nonsense due to my ignorance of > > the subject. With some fear in heart I present it before all – > > Hope there won't be any thing of that sort. > > 2 : It seems that the only thing I am sure about is " Lagna > indicates > > the relative angle of revolution to earth " . What ever you do with > > maths (of which I am afraid of), the calculated lagna should > reflect > > the 360 deg revolution of earth. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 OOOps sorry! Am forgetting geography.... Length of day is determined by latitude. Declination of the axis determines the seasons....the apparent movement of the sun 23.3 degrees north and south of equator. , " vinita kumar " <shankar_mamta wrote: > > Dear All, > > I could be 100% wrong....but thought i could give my 2 paise on this > based on geography lessons in school (many long years ago). > > The meridian is a mathematical line which determines time. > The declination of the earth determines the length of day and night. > Even though the sun is above the horizon (as a result of > declination), the eastern point could (perhaps) still be determined > on the basis of the meridian. All the places from the equator to the > poles will share the same time....the same eastern point....even > though the sun / zodiac may have already risen / be above the > horizon in places 66.6 degress North or South of 0 degrees. > > In other words, east becomes a mathmatical point related to time??? > > The only confusion would then arise at the exact degree of the pole > where all meridians converge...where speed of rotation is 0??? > > (Just trying to give my best at a wild guess!) > > Love, > > Vinita > > > > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > I had downloaded the Stellarium 0.7.1 free software from net > and > > installed it today. It is available at http://www. Stellarium.org. > It > > is a very good software that gives us a real time view of the > > movement of zodiac, planets and sun. You can also adjust the time > > speed as per your requirement. On adjusting the location properly > I > > could see that for extreme polar regions the sun never sets (goes > > below horizon) for certain days and does not rise above horizon > for > > certain days! So my definition for the east: > > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > > towards the south > > Miserably fails! But if a similar definition is given for MC it > > holds, that is – > > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian > > towards the south is called MC. > > So either we should – > > • Calculate Lagna based on MC for polar regions Or > > • Calculate Lagna based on declination of the Sun. > > Because if we consider extreme polar regions then it seems that > there > > is no intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon! As > > chandrahari stated – " There are no directions at the North Pole, > as > > East cannot be fixed. Day is decided by the declination of Sun " If > > the sun just circles round the sky, above the horizon, then about > > what rising and setting of sun, and what east and west we are > going > > to talk about?! Because common definition is that `East is the > > direction where sun rises' and `West is the direction were sun > > sets'. In polar regions both are same, and therefore, East = > West. > > The question arises is – > > • Should we need to consider that since MC is 90 deg away from > > Lagna longitude (for equatorial regions) the same (or similar) > > concept should be applied while calculating Lagna for polar > regions? > > • Or should we consider the point of Maximum declination and > > minimum declination for the sun and take the half of it as the > Lagna > > longitude? > > I wonder what we are going to do when there is no intersection > > point between ecliptic and horizon at some extreme polar regions! > But > > even at this state, one thing is clear – > > • Lagna should represent the relative angle of rotation of > > earth (what ever you do)! > > What the sidhantic texts say? What are the related concepts > and > > mathematic solutions available? It is turning out to be even more > > interesting! > > Sorry, but the truth is that I fails to comprehend the words > > of Vermalingia ji and Chandrahari ji, and others could happen it > with > > my words and doubts as well. It is their maths or approach I don't > > know what I am afraid of – These are all just undigested – yes, it > is > > all due to my illiteracy in the subject discussed. > > > > P.S: Don't take seriously my words in such issues – I am not at > all > > good in astronomy. It is the joy and doubts of a child who > uncounted > > a new interesting subject. I am just trying to digest it all. > > > > General definitions: > > Lagna = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > in > > east direction. > > MC = Intersection point between the ecliptic and the meridian > > circle above the horizon > > How ever any astronomer is changing the definition of Lagna > > for polar regions, " it should represent the relative angle of > > rotation of earth " , only that I know. Because Lagna is supposed > to > > be a tool to study the movement, revolution of earth. So > > Lagna `should not jump' for sure. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear vernalagnia ji, Chandrahari ji, Vijayadas ji, and All, > > > Let us approach the question put forward by vernalagnia ji > on > > the > > > forum. > > > 1) Texts say that Lagna is the longitude of the horizon that > > > rises in the East. Than what is this East? If we are in Polar > > Regions > > > does it (East) have any meaning? > > > 2) If we cast horoscope for any place in Polar Regions for some > > > special days, the lagna seems to retrograde! This is pretty > visible > > > with tools like JHora. It is not the problem caused by the > > > calculation method followed in the software, but an astronomical > > > problem. How to correlate astrological prediction system with > it? > > > These are the questions put forward as I understood them. The > > > problem seemed to be too troublesome as I was not aware of the > > issues > > > involved. Only one thing I was sure about – > > > • Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to earth > > > This indicates that it should cover the complete 360 deg, since > > each > > > revolution covers the total 360 deg. Except this simple logic > the > > > intricacies involved where unknown to me. Vijayadas Pradeep ji > has > > > provided a good input by providing a link! It was – > > > http://hem.bredband.net/ivawil/program/polar/polarchart8.htm > > > Most of the things vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji says goes > > above > > > my head – It seems that I am not intelligent enough to > understand > > all > > > that. > > > But the following I could understand – > > > • Lagna is the intersection between ecliptic and the horizon > in > > > the east. > > > It is also usually known as ascendant since it `rises' in the > east > > in > > > the equatorial region. Out of the 2 intersection points of these > > > circles, one is known as Asc and the other is known as Desc. So > > > Asc/Desc axis is very important and the difference between these > > two > > > intersection points is usually 180 deg. > > > • MC is the intersection point between the ecliptic and the > > > meridian circle. > > > It is the maximum declination point of Sun (Am I correct?). Out > of > > > the 2 intersection points of these circles, one is known as MC > and > > > the other IC. So MC/IC axis is very important and the difference > > > between these two is intersection points is usually 180 deg. > > > 1) What is East? > > > Shall we define it as – > > > • The intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon > > > towards the south > > > This would also mean that if the followers of various house > > division > > > systems are considering the MC, then he intersection point > between > > > the ecliptic and the meridian towards the south should be > > considered > > > as MC for polar regions. (This concept of MC is of not much use > to > > us > > > since we consider sign and house as the same) > > > 2) Lagna > > > This essentially means that – > > > • Lagna is the intersection point to the south between > ecliptic > > > and the horizon. > > > I think this or a similar definition of Lagna based on the fact > > > that " Lagna indicates the relative angle of revolution to > earth " , > > > will solve both the problem of `Lagna Retrograde' and `Lagna > Jump'. > > > But since I am not proficient in astronomy, I am still not sure - > > > 1) Does such a definition of Lagna solve the problem? Or what > > > are the new problems that may emerge? > > > 2) Is there any mathematical method to calculate MC first and > > > then calculate Lagna using it? > > > 3) Does it not indicate that the system followed by JHora for > > > Lagna calculation for polar regions are wrong? > > > 4) When Asc/Desc axis and MC/IC axis coincide for polar > regions, > > > there is no distance between Asc and MC. So, for the followers > of > > > various house systems - houses 10, 11, and 12 should be regarded > as > > > non-existent because their cusps occupy the same point of the > > zodiac > > > and thus the cover 0°00'00 " of the zodiac. The same applies for > > > houses 4, 5, and 6. This also indicates that, how erroneous the > > > various house systems that consider houses as different from > signs > > > are. > > > This is what I could assimilate. I wait for more inputs and > > > clarifications from vernalagnia ji and Chandrahari ji. And > request > > > them to clarify my sincere doubts. > > > P.S. 1: Hope I didn't uttered some nonsense due to my ignorance > of > > > the subject. With some fear in heart I present it before all – > > > > Hope there won't be any thing of that sort. > > > 2 : It seems that the only thing I am sure about is " Lagna > > indicates > > > the relative angle of revolution to earth " . What ever you do > with > > > maths (of which I am afraid of), the calculated lagna should > > reflect > > > the 360 deg revolution of earth. > > > Love, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Dear All, Today I thought more about the Retro Lagna Issue, or rather about the Lagna Jump. If we go as per the premises provided by Rishi Horas – • Signs are 30 deg equal divisions starting from Meshadi (Starting point of Aries) • Signs and houses are the same • Therefore, All the 12 Signs and the 12 houses exist even if we are in poles What is Lagna? ------------------ As per Rishi horas- " Lagna is the longitude of sky that rises in the East " Two questions becomes important here – 1) Longitude of which point? 2) What is East? The answer to the first question could be – " The longitude of the intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon " . That is, " Lagna means the longitude of the intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon " There are 2 such points. One is called Asc and the other is called Desc. In equatorial region the difference between the two is 180 deg approx. In polar regions it may be the case. The Rishi horas only talk about Udaya lagna and Asta Lagna, the two states of Lagna, the meaning of which is slightly different from Asc and Desc. The Rishi horas are talking Lagna, and not about Asc or Desc. The meaning of these words Udaya Lagna and Asc and Asta Lagna and Desc are slightly different. I will explain. The same mathematical point Lagna is at times called Udaya Lagna and Asta Lagna – why? Why it is called Udaya Lagna? We used to say that it is because it `rises in the east'. But there is slight wrong notion associated with it. The correct view would be - With the rising of each new point of the ecliptic in the horizon (i.e. Lagna) we feel that the Sun goes high up in the sky. Actually the point Lagna is a fixed mathematical point in horizon, and it is due to the revolution of earth we feel that it (or rather the sky associated with it and the Sun) rises. Lagna does not rise nor set. Actually it is the sun (and sky) is the one that rises and sets. So it is wrong to associate the word Lagna with rising or setting – it is just the intersection point of ecliptic and horizon. Therefore the word, Udadya Lagna should mean, the intersection point of ecliptic and horizon when the sun Rises (Suryodaya). Similarly the word Asta Lagna should mean, the intersection point of the ecliptic and horizon when the Sun sets (Suryatamaya). Thus the words, Udaya (Rising) and Asta (Setting) is rather related to Sun than to Lagna. Let us liberate the word Lagna from the wrong notations – Udaya (Rising) and Asta (Setting). This is the first step. So – • Lagna is a mathematical point. It is the name given to the intersection of ecliptic and horizon. • This intersection points are visible even if we are in equator, north pole or south pole. No matter sun is visible for the whole day, or not at all visible (according to in which hemisphere sun is), these intersection points would be visible in the sky. The visibilities of these points are not at all related to the visibility or non-visibility of Sun. That is, we should stop associating Lagna with the visibility or non- visibility of Sun, but rather it is only related to the visibility or non visibility of ecliptic and horizon. No matter where sun is, the intersection point of ecliptic and horizon is visible to two persons standing at the north pole and south pole at the same time, and therefore Lagna exists for both of them, and thus the Rasichakra and horoscope. This much is clear. Now there are two such intersection points – between ecliptic and horizon. Which of them should be taken as Lagna? Rishi horas clearly states, the point in the East. That means out of the two points only, one point, that is the one in `East' should be considered, and the other should be discarded. Thus our problem melts down to the question – What is East? Usually we say that " East is the direction where the sun rises' and `West is the direction where sun sets " . If we are in northern pole in June 21st – • The sun is there in the ecliptic and it is above the horizon • Ecliptic goes down and cuts the horizon (and so Lagna is there) • Earth revolute, Sun goes round us in the sky above horizon and reaches the same point from where it started, and it is day all along. • That means there is no Rising or Setting of Sun, but still `both the intersection points' of Ecliptic with horizon was visible all along. In the same day if we are in southern pole – • The sun is there in the ecliptic but it is below the horizon • Ecliptic goes down and cuts the horizon. (and so Lagna is there) • Earth revolute Sun goes round us in the sky but below horizon and so we can not see sun, and it is night all along. • That means there is no Rising or Setting of Sun, but still `both the intersection points' of Ecliptic with horizon was visible all along. Since `both the intersection points' were visible, to people in equator, north pole and south pole, selecting one of these points is not at all a problem. The only question is which of these points should be selected? This question is also valid only for polar regions, because in equatorial region, we can take the intersection point in the east as Lagna, depending on the ancient definition " East is the direction where the sun rises " . But this definition of `East' fails in polar regions since sun does not rise or set there in some particular days. So we need to search for a new definition for " East " at least for polar regions. If we consider the fact that, it is the " relative angle of revolution of earth " is what Lagna is supposed to reflect, then – • For the northern hemisphere, the intersection point to the south is east, and • For the southern hemisphere, the intersection point to the north is east Would be the proper definitions, I feel, since we are considering the same axis/angle of rotation. The points to remember is that – • We are allowed to select only one intersection point, and are NOT allowed to interchange this reference point with the other at any point of time. • The sky (zodiac) completes a total 360 deg revolution through this point, and therefore there is " No Lagna Jump " . • All the signs and houses exist even for people born in polar regions since Sign/House division is based on Meshadi (Starting point of Aries) and not based on Lagna. • Lagna exists in all polar charts since it is the intersection point between the ecliptic and the horizon which is visible to people in equator, north pole and south pole alike. So the conclusion is that – • Lagna is the longitude of the intersection point between ecliptic and horizon to the south for Northern hemisphere. • Lagna is the longitude of the intersection point between ecliptic and horizon to the north for Southern hemisphere. I think, this solves the problem. I hope this might be the solution Chandra Hari ji pointed to when he said – " This can be a case of the routine method of fixing the Lagna failing. But still there must be some way out to fix the Lagna. May be quite easy too.. " • This also indicates that the Lagna calculation method followed in JHora for polar regions is not in line with the definition of Lagna given in Rishi horas. • Thus Lagna jump is a wrong output produced, since PVR was following the definition of Asc given by Western astrologers and the house systems which considers points such as MC, IC, Desc etc as well, which are not at all of any predictive importance as per ancient Indian astrology. Even though I am sure that such a definition would solve the issue of " Lagna Jump " , I am not sure where the " Retro Lagna " issue would be solved by the same. I request him and vernalagnia ji to come forward giving more suggestions and inputs and thus helping to get a clear idea in resolving the issue, or suggest a possible solution by themselves. I humbly request you to indicate the pitfalls and errors in my arguments as well. I am not at all good in astronomy, and that might have caused some errors, if so, I beg your pardon. Love, Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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