Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Sreenadh, What I have written to Kankan is what we really see or experience in Keralite astrological parlance.Almost all astrologers of repute in kerala are one way or the other found to be following this.You see, the modern techniques like KP etc have very few followers in kerala, and most of the astrologers still rely on the Cawries..Recently in a public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika, calculated as per BPHS, in Parasharas light ulitimate software, the elderly astrologers raised a big hue and cry. They won't accept or agree with BPHS calculations.What you say might be the Truth but in Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from Traditional astrologers who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept that they are erroneously considering Mandi as Gulika Madhu N Nair Sreenadh <sreesog wrote: Dear Madhu ji,You said:<SNIP>Always remember the entire Kerala prasna branch revolves around two things 1, Gulika (Notes---should be calculated as per UttaraKalamrita directive and not BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between these two. 2, Bhadhastanas ---- Two meanings are accorded to Bhadastanas viz (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed </SNIP>I would differ with both the points with pleasure – since they can direct the research in new directions. Gulika------------ Gulika and Mandi are widely confused concepts. Though later they become synonyms, as per ancient astrology they are different. BPHS, Uttarakalamrita, Phaladeepika, Madhaveeyam Prasnasaram etc supports this argument. Uttara kalamrita "separately gives" the methods to calculate them, and calls them as "two sons of " Saturn. We should understand this point clearly. So as per ancient terminology - Gulika – The beginning point of Yama assigned to Saturn (BPHS, Gulikolpatti) Mandi – The end point of complete Muhurta within the Yama assigned to Saturn. (Uttara kalamrita, Phaladeepika etc) As you said, there is about 20* difference between the two, and the one with the ancient name `Mandi' is popular in Kerala, especially in Prasna. In horoscope Gulika is more important and should be considered since it helps birth time rectification!! Use of Gulika for BT rectification is supported by many acharyas, but Mandi cannot be and should not be used for this purpose. Prasna Ratna, Prasna Sangraha, Jataka Parijata and Prasna sara unanimously states that – "The Lagna would be in the trines of Gulika or Gulaka Navamsa" !!!!!!! But the same or similar opinion is not available concerning Mandi. I was totally confused the unanimity the books are showing in this regard, and is of the opinion that "it should be tested/validated". If it proved to be true we can accept it, or discard it. But yes this necessitates that we should treat Gulika and Mandi separately. Yes, I agree that after the period of phaladeepika, especially in and after the period of Prasnamarga, considering these 2 words as synonyms is present. Again, I stated all these because –1) To initiate some research in use of Gulika in BT rectification.2) "Calculation of Gulika as per Uttara Kalamrita" – But in Uttara kalamrita both Gulika and Mandi are mentioned, but yes it gives only the calculation method for Mandi. [it might be that the use of the word `Mandaja' (Son of Sa) to mention both of them, that started causing the confusion to all]. Yes, I know that you know this difference, and was just following the Prasnamarga style of using these names as synonyms, but I just took it as a chance to present the 1st point. [iI] Badhakastana----------------------Prasnamarga mentions it as the last step only, while considering the divine obstacles only. Problems could be caused by two reasons – Worldly or Devine. (Yes, `divine' could mean `caused by bad spirits' or caused by `gods' in this context) In the first part Prasnamarga does not use the concept of Badhakastana while considering the first but only on the second!! Also except in Prasna, the ancient classics on astrology, Varaha Hora or Rishi Horas before that DOES NOT mention Badhakastana. We does not have much evidence to support the use of badhakastana in Jataka (horoscope). There are many statements that says that the rules for Jataka () can be used in prasna as well, but there is "no statement" which says that the rules of prasna can be used in Jataka! So, Even though I would agree with your views on to an extend as far as Prasna is concerned, would like to differ while talking about Jataka.Love,Sreenadh , VYASAJI <vyasatvm wrote:>> Kankan,> No matter where Jupiter is, blocking is considered with repect to Aruuda and Risng Sign relation (2/12, 6/8) only.Earlier, the astrologers use to abandon the prasna altogether. The querist is asked to meet the Astrologer on another day.If prasna is blocked,the remedial measures fails to work. It is also an indication of adverse time ahead for the querist.Personally, based on real life experience , I feel such a directive is quite unwarranted. I will explain. Often the Arudha reflects the current situation of the person posing the question. The rising sign or UdayaLagna apparently indicates the future. A shashtashtama (6/ 8) indicates, Disease, Debts,Litigation , Mental Anguish, Insult / loss of reputation, scandals etc and Dwirdwadasa (2/12) between these two is a pointer towards Change of residence/station , foreign travel , expenses, trouble from secret enemies, problems to ones children , in relevant cases imprisonment, raid in ones business establishment/> residence etc.As I mentioned in my previous message, these are general statements , and should not be taken literally without considering the prasna chart as a whole.> Always remember the entire Kerala prasna branch revolves around two things> 1, Gulika (Notes---should be calculated as per UttaraKalamrita directive and not BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between these two.> 2, Bhadhastanas ---- Two meanings are accorded to Bhadastanas viz > (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed> The second meaning is widely applied (And often abused or misused) by professional keralite astrologers.> Madhu N Nair> > > > > kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote:> Dear Madhuji and Sreenadhji,> > Many thanks for your explanations. > One more query, Is Jupiters position from Arudha (or Aaroodha) also > consider for Blocking/hindrance to Arudha. Also what if the arudha > is blocked? what how to proceed next?> > Thanks & regards,> Kannan> > > , "Sreenadh" > <sreesog@> wrote:> >> > Dear Madhu ji,> > That was beautiful! But we should reach an agreement on -> > Whether to call it Kavadi, Cowries, or shells or whatever. > > Also Aaroodha, Aruuda or Aruda whatever. > > Otherwise we will make others confused with 'Arudha' out > there. )> > Actually I feel that Arudha would be the correct spelling, but > alas > > that spelling was used by somebody else!!! )> > Yes, instead of saying "Dividing the number of shells with 12 and > > taking the remainder", the words "Expunging the multiples of 12", > > sounds better. > > Instead of the words, 'the rising sign' or 'Udaya Lagna', I think > we > > can stay with the word 'Lagna' or 'Asc'. As we know in Prasna all > > those words mean the same. If we use all different words and > > different spelling many may get confused. > > By the way what is this :Arudha (AL) others are talking about? > And > > how they are calculating it? [Deal All, please forgive my > ignorance]> > Love,> > Sreenadh> > > > , VYASAJI > > <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > >> > > Kankan,> > > Sreenadh will brief you regarding the queries putforth , in > the > > mean time, I will narrate , whatever little I know about it.> > > The cawries also known "Kavadies" are 108 in number. Firstly, > > the cawries are are cleansed in pure water. Then it is immersed > > in "Cow's urine" for a day. Then it is kept in "panchagavya"(An > > Ayurvedic preparation available in all Ayurvededic medical > outlets > > of Kerala, made out from five products, obtained from cow) for > > couple of days.Subsequently, it is kept in tender cocanut water > for > > a day. Again in rose water for another day. Then touching these > > Cawries, Ganesha Gayatri is chanted minimum of 1008 (In earlier > > times, 24,000) in the early hours of the day. After that , > touching > > the cawries, Dakshinamurthy Mantra (some go for Divine > Panchakshari) > > is chanted 1008 times. On an auspicious Muhurth, when Jupiter is > > powerful and well placed from the Ascendant, this is handed over > to > > the disciple by the preceptor.> > > The method of analysis > > > When a querist approach the astrologer, after praying to Lord > > Ganesh and Ishata Devata, and prayer to Almighty citing the > name > > Nakshatra and age of the querist , is made with a request to > grant > > the correct Ascendant that will reflect the querist past, present > and > > future. A handful of cawries are taken. Expunging the multiples of > > 12, the remaining is taken as the "Aruuda" . The rising sign is > > technically called "Udaya Lagna" A comparison is made between the > > Aruda & the rising sign. While conducting the prasna, the > Astrologer > > will carefully notice the Omens technically called " Nimithas" If > the > > Aruuda is in 6-8-12 from rising sign, it is generally believed, > the > > prasna is hindered (Blocked). Exceptions are there. Say, if rising > is > > Taurus & Aruuda is Libra , there is no hindrance to prasna ; > reason > > is both these signs are owned by one and the same planet, that > is, > > Venus .> > > Hope this helps> > > Madhu N Nair > > > BTW--All these cawery purifying , and allied affairs are > things > > of the past. It is now Westerners , who are showing real interest > in > > such things.> > > > > > > > > kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote:> > > Dear Sreenadh,> > > > > > Kindly tell me about the procedure of Prasna, how it is done in > > > Kerala. Kindly also tell me about the use of Kavadi (shells) in > > > Prashna and also about the concept of Blocking of Aarooda.> > > > > > Thanks & regards,> > > Kannan> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Dear Madhu ji, You said: ==> Recently in a public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika, calculated as per BPHS, in Parasharas light ulitimate software, the elderly astrologers raised a big hue and cry. They won't accept or agree with BPHS calculations.What you say might be the Truth but in Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from Traditional astrologers who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept that they are erroneously considering Mandi as Gulika <== I am not talking of any change in practices, it is not necessory. The point I am trying to make is - 1) Use of Gulika (as per BPHS) is the one supported by classics for BT rectification issues. 2) Use of Mandi (as per Phaladeepika etc) is the one supported for Prasna predictions in Kerla astrology. 3) Let others confuce the 2 terms if they want. But let us be, systematic and sincere in following the words of ancient Rishis. 4) Traditional kerla astrologers won't accept many ideas we talk about. Remmber the recent Panchanga contraversi. Modern efforts to corelate it with science or holistic approch, modern techneques used by individuals like you, the circardian rhythem etc chandrahari is interested in, the Ayanamsa issue, what ever you take, they are not going to accept many things. Let us forget the astrologers (Let it be of south or north, eastern or wester) but rather depend on the oldest available books at one end - and systematic logical holistic appraoach in the middle - scientific and mathematical tools and systems (experiments) at the other end; that is the better path I feel. I was pointing to the ancient view of the same in astrological classics. Shouldn't we more concerned about the truth rather than currently followed practices? I hope you would agree. 5) It would be worth remembering that we are all considered almost as 'Rebels' by almost all the steams of astrology - let it be south or north. ) We are not supposed to support or uphold anybodies (here normal kerala astrologers)views - if not we are finding them as currect and supported by ancient astro classics - that is my openion. Love, Sreenadh , VYASAJI <vyasatvm wrote: > > Sreenadh, > What I have written to Kankan is what we really see or experience in Keralite astrological parlance.Almost all astrologers of repute in kerala are one way or the other found to be following this.You see, the modern techniques like KP etc have very few followers in kerala, and most of the astrologers still rely on the Cawries..Recently in a public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika, calculated as per BPHS, in Parasharas light ulitimate software, the elderly astrologers raised a big hue and cry. They won't accept or agree with BPHS calculations.What you say might be the Truth but in Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from Traditional astrologers who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept that they are erroneously considering Mandi as Gulika > Madhu N Nair > Sreenadh <sreesog wrote: > Dear Madhu ji, > You said: > <SNIP> > Always remember the entire Kerala prasna branch revolves around two > things > 1, Gulika (Notes---should be calculated as per UttaraKalamrita > directive and not BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between > these two. > 2, Bhadhastanas ---- Two meanings are accorded to Bhadastanas viz > (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed > </SNIP> > > I would differ with both the points with pleasure – since they can > direct the research in new directions. > Gulika > ------------ > Gulika and Mandi are widely confused concepts. Though later they > become synonyms, as per ancient astrology they are different. BPHS, > Uttarakalamrita, Phaladeepika, Madhaveeyam Prasnasaram etc supports > this argument. Uttara kalamrita " separately gives " the methods to > calculate them, and calls them as " two sons of " Saturn. We should > understand this point clearly. So as per ancient terminology - > Gulika – The beginning point of Yama assigned to Saturn (BPHS, > Gulikolpatti) > Mandi – The end point of complete Muhurta within the Yama > assigned to Saturn. (Uttara kalamrita, Phaladeepika etc) > As you said, there is about 20* difference between the two, and > the one with the ancient name `Mandi' is popular in Kerala, > especially in Prasna. In horoscope Gulika is more important and > should be considered since it helps birth time rectification!! Use > of Gulika for BT rectification is supported by many acharyas, but > Mandi cannot be and should not be used for this purpose. Prasna > Ratna, Prasna Sangraha, Jataka Parijata and Prasna sara unanimously > states that – > " The Lagna would be in the trines of Gulika or Gulaka > Navamsa " !!!!!!! But the same or similar opinion is not available > concerning Mandi. > I was totally confused the unanimity the books are showing in this > regard, and is of the opinion that " it should be tested/validated " . > If it proved to be true we can accept it, or discard it. But yes this > necessitates that we should treat Gulika and Mandi separately. Yes, I > agree that after the period of phaladeepika, especially in and after > the period of Prasnamarga, considering these 2 words as synonyms is > present. Again, I stated all these because – > 1) To initiate some research in use of Gulika in BT rectification. > 2) " Calculation of Gulika as per Uttara Kalamrita " – But in Uttara > kalamrita both Gulika and Mandi are mentioned, but yes it gives only > the calculation method for Mandi. [it might be that the use of the > word `Mandaja' (Son of Sa) to mention both of them, that started > causing the confusion to all]. Yes, I know that you know this > difference, and was just following the Prasnamarga style of using > these names as synonyms, but I just took it as a chance to present > the 1st point. > [iI] Badhakastana > ---------------------- > Prasnamarga mentions it as the last step only, while considering the > divine obstacles only. > Problems could be caused by two reasons – Worldly or Devine. > (Yes, `divine' could mean `caused by bad spirits' or caused by `gods' > in this context) > In the first part Prasnamarga does not use the concept of > Badhakastana while considering the first but only on the second!! > Also except in Prasna, the ancient classics on astrology, Varaha Hora > or Rishi Horas before that DOES NOT mention Badhakastana. We does not > have much evidence to support the use of badhakastana in Jataka > (horoscope). There are many statements that says that the rules for > Jataka () can be used in prasna as well, but there is " no statement " > which says that the rules of prasna can be used in Jataka! > So, Even though I would agree with your views on to an extend as > far as Prasna is concerned, would like to differ while talking about > Jataka. > Love, > Sreenadh > > , VYASAJI > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > Kankan, > > No matter where Jupiter is, blocking is considered with repect > to Aruuda and Risng Sign relation (2/12, 6/8) only.Earlier, the > astrologers use to abandon the prasna altogether. The querist is > asked to meet the Astrologer on another day.If prasna is blocked,the > remedial measures fails to work. It is also an indication of adverse > time ahead for the querist.Personally, based on real life > experience , I feel such a directive is quite unwarranted. I will > explain. Often the Arudha reflects the current situation of the > person posing the question. The rising sign or UdayaLagna apparently > indicates the future. A shashtashtama (6/ 8) indicates, Disease, > Debts,Litigation , Mental Anguish, Insult / loss of reputation, > scandals etc and Dwirdwadasa (2/12) between these two is a pointer > towards Change of residence/station , foreign travel , expenses, > trouble from secret enemies, problems to ones children , in relevant > cases imprisonment, raid in ones business establishment/ > > residence etc.As I mentioned in my previous message, these are > general statements , and should not be taken literally without > considering the prasna chart as a whole. > > Always remember the entire Kerala prasna branch revolves around > two things > > 1, Gulika (Notes---should be calculated as per UttaraKalamrita > directive and not BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between > these two. > > 2, Bhadhastanas ---- Two meanings are accorded to Bhadastanas viz > > (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed > > The second meaning is widely applied (And often abused or > misused) by professional keralite astrologers. > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > > > kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote: > > Dear Madhuji and Sreenadhji, > > > > Many thanks for your explanations. > > One more query, Is Jupiters position from Arudha (or Aaroodha) also > > consider for Blocking/hindrance to Arudha. Also what if the arudha > > is blocked? what how to proceed next? > > > > Thanks & regards, > > Kannan > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Madhu ji, > > > That was beautiful! But we should reach an agreement on - > > > Whether to call it Kavadi, Cowries, or shells or whatever. > > > Also Aaroodha, Aruuda or Aruda whatever. > > > Otherwise we will make others confused with 'Arudha' out > > there. ) > > > Actually I feel that Arudha would be the correct spelling, but > > alas > > > that spelling was used by somebody else!!! ) > > > Yes, instead of saying " Dividing the number of shells with 12 > and > > > taking the remainder " , the words " Expunging the multiples of 12 " , > > > sounds better. > > > Instead of the words, 'the rising sign' or 'Udaya Lagna', I > think > > we > > > can stay with the word 'Lagna' or 'Asc'. As we know in Prasna all > > > those words mean the same. If we use all different words and > > > different spelling many may get confused. > > > By the way what is this :Arudha (AL) others are talking about? > > And > > > how they are calculating it? [Deal All, please forgive my > > ignorance] > > > Love, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > , VYASAJI > > > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kankan, > > > > Sreenadh will brief you regarding the queries putforth , in > > the > > > mean time, I will narrate , whatever little I know about it. > > > > The cawries also known " Kavadies " are 108 in number. > Firstly, > > > the cawries are are cleansed in pure water. Then it is immersed > > > in " Cow's urine " for a day. Then it is kept in " panchagavya " (An > > > Ayurvedic preparation available in all Ayurvededic medical > > outlets > > > of Kerala, made out from five products, obtained from cow) for > > > couple of days.Subsequently, it is kept in tender cocanut water > > for > > > a day. Again in rose water for another day. Then touching these > > > Cawries, Ganesha Gayatri is chanted minimum of 1008 (In earlier > > > times, 24,000) in the early hours of the day. After that , > > touching > > > the cawries, Dakshinamurthy Mantra (some go for Divine > > Panchakshari) > > > is chanted 1008 times. On an auspicious Muhurth, when Jupiter is > > > powerful and well placed from the Ascendant, this is handed over > > to > > > the disciple by the preceptor. > > > > The method of analysis > > > > When a querist approach the astrologer, after praying to Lord > > > Ganesh and Ishata Devata, and prayer to Almighty citing the > > name > > > Nakshatra and age of the querist , is made with a request to > > grant > > > the correct Ascendant that will reflect the querist past, present > > and > > > future. A handful of cawries are taken. Expunging the multiples > of > > > 12, the remaining is taken as the " Aruuda " . The rising sign is > > > technically called " Udaya Lagna " A comparison is made between the > > > Aruda & the rising sign. While conducting the prasna, the > > Astrologer > > > will carefully notice the Omens technically called " Nimithas " If > > the > > > Aruuda is in 6-8-12 from rising sign, it is generally believed, > > the > > > prasna is hindered (Blocked). Exceptions are there. Say, if > rising > > is > > > Taurus & Aruuda is Libra , there is no hindrance to prasna ; > > reason > > > is both these signs are owned by one and the same planet, that > > is, > > > Venus . > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > BTW--All these cawery purifying , and allied affairs are > > things > > > of the past. It is now Westerners , who are showing real interest > > in > > > such things. > > > > > > > > > > > > kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sreenadh, > > > > > > > > Kindly tell me about the procedure of Prasna, how it is done in > > > > Kerala. Kindly also tell me about the use of Kavadi (shells) in > > > > Prashna and also about the concept of Blocking of Aarooda. > > > > > > > > Thanks & regards, > > > > Kannan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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