Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 , " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical astronomy and mathematical astrology) Written by Sunil Nair Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and mathematical astrology. Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by many. So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting reasons such as – 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time interacted 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc – to name a few. Mathematical part of astrological astronomy Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the main branches or heads. 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and Ganita (calculation) 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some part of Nimitta 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group or particular geographical location etc ) – in this context it is also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes in weather, Growth-diseases-treatment-cure of animals and plants, Nature and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities and in short spherical astronomy. 3) Nimitta –deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) – mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to body language, events and so on. 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by a qurrent 5) Muhurta – selection of auspicious time for success in religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any undertaking. 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era date calculations), mean position of planets, true position of planets, solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita skanta) – there are numerous ideas present in astrologia mathematics that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita texts. Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer is expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate calculations. So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a different angle – the deal with what we see, observe, experience as seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. Some words on Charlatans Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded and was given `as observed from earth' – erroneously terming it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and useless. So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. They act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for truth – while in truth they are into their missionary mission of destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention – but only distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand the real meanings and context of those words or its application in Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra). This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. Sidhantas: how realistic are they? The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta), but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma; Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice to us is that – we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. Second, to dharma Pravarthaka's (Hindu religious propagators), who in the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive generation of scholars? They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and twisting everything. Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia mathematics). I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position (physical position) of planets – i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc – all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary positions – the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) are totally wrong. The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - Viknjaya cha laghu thantram drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa ganakanam santhosha pradam maya grahana mandanam kriyathe (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools. The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles laid down by ancient sages. [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article – if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and caliber. But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and contribute for this discussions] --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Reply to Mr Sunil Nair's inroads into Siddhantic Jyotisha : It is amusing to read Mr Sunil Nair. Here, I am pointing at some glaring mistakes in his statements ensuing from his lack of knowledge of those very texts on which he comment. He says : <<< " Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) are archaic in nature. " >>> Mr Nair never read even one page of Varaha Mihira's Panch-siddhaantika, that is why he says so. The above statement is a verbatim copy of what Varaha Mihira wrote in the initial page of Panch-siddhaantika, and Mr Nair imagines Varaha Mihira said something different !! If Prasna Marga used some ideas of Varaha Mihira , how those very ideas became alienated from Varaha Mihira !!! Without reading the siddhanta grantha of Varaha Mihira, Mr Nair says : " " Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary phenomenon " . Varaha Mihira never said so. He said Suryasiddhanta is most clear among all siddhantas, and made no attempt to change it. Mr Nair makes another wrong statement : " Why Varahamihira ... tried to improve it ? " He should show the verse in which Varaha Mihira made such alleged attempts. While warring with some wrong headed calendar reformers, Mr Nair makes another wrong statement : " Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other. " Ptolemy's Almagest and Suryasiddhanta have same basic framework, on account of which many Western scholars say Suryasiddhanta was based upon Almagest. But even Burgess accepts that Suryasiddhanta lacks some improvements which Ptolemy brought about due to physical observation, eg second inequality in Moon's equation, which all Indian siddhantas lacked till modern age. Hence, if Suryasiddhanta is more primitive, it must be older than Almagest and not vice versa. Mr Nair should read Almagest, Suryasiddhanta , Panchsiddhantika, etc, before making careless statements on public forums. Mr Nair does not know that Burgess was the first commentator of Suryasiddhanta who considered beeja-samskaara not to be a part of Suryasiddhanta. All previous experts of Suryasiddhanta accepted beeja-samskaara in Suryasiddhanta, which is indicated in verse-9 of chapter-1 ( This verse cannot be interpreted as updating basic theory, but as updating beeja corrections. There were 22 shlokas of beeja samskaara which were updated from time to time and were appended in the last portion of the text. Burgess removed those verses) , and whose proof is the long tradition of Suryasiddhantic panchangas made from Suryasiddhantic Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD ; Diwakara Bhatta even expalined the values of beeja samskaaras used in earlier Suryasiddhantic tables. Mr Nair believes in Burgess in saying that " so called beeja corrections are not required " . Suryasiddhantic tradition required beeja-samskaara from earliest times, be it Panchsiddhantika of Varaha Mihira or Siamese Tables (preserved in France) based on 7th century AD Suryasiddhantic tables or Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD. Mr Nair has no interest in testing the validity of Saurapaksha. He told me that he will test Kundalee only after everyone else accepts it. This biased attitude is based upon a psychological mindset which declares : " Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) are totally wrong. Mind the words " only as spiritual unrelated to reality " ! He means " spiritual " is " unrelated to reality " , and reality is merely " physical reality " . Although these materialists are younger to me, I never address them, including Mr Nair, with first names, as Mr Nair is doing. I left AIA due to abusive behaviour of Mr Nair's team, and he has started the same again here. Decency in personal behaviour is a part of spiritualism which is " unreal " to Mr Nair. Adherence to Truth and honesty is also related to spiritualism , which is not needed in making false statements like : " Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. " Where did Varahamihira say so ? Cite the verse from his siddhantika. Mr Nair has no right to impose his own ideas on Varahamihira. There is no cure for prejudice , but there are many cures for false propaganda, which I will continue to apply. I myself believed in the reality of physical things, till I tested Suryasiddhanta without a bias. I know Mr Nair is basically a good person, but what he needs is some impartiality, which cannot be purchased in market and should be acquired through some tapasyaa. -VJ ========= ============= ========= ________________________________ sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:27:56 PM Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical astronomy and mathematical astrology) Written by Sunil Nair Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and mathematical astrology. Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by many. So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting reasons such as – 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time interacted 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc – to name a few. Mathematical part of astrological astronomy Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the main branches or heads. 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and Ganita (calculation) 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some part of Nimitta 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group or particular geographical location etc ) – in this context it is also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, Nature and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this way itself.. The six Angas can be described as follows - 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities and in short spherical astronomy. 3) Nimitta –deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) – mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to body language, events and so on. 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by a qurrent 5) Muhurta – selection of auspicious time for success in religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any undertaking. 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of planets, solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita skanta) – there are numerous ideas present in astrologia mathematics that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita texts. Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. Coming back to our subject of discussion, i..e. Ganita, an astrologer is expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate calculations. So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a different angle – the deal with what we see, observe, experience as seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. Some words on Charlatans Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded and was given `as observed from earth' – erroneously terming it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and useless. So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments.. They act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for truth – while in truth they are into their missionary mission of destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention – but only distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand the real meanings and context of those words or its application in Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it.. They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. Sidhantas: how realistic are they? The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta), but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma; Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice to us is that – we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who in the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive generation of scholars? They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and twisting everything. Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position (physical position) of planets – i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc – all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary positions – the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) are totally wrong. The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - Viknjaya cha laghu thantram drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa ganakanam santhosha pradam maya grahana mandanam kriyathe (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools. The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles laid down by ancient sages. [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article – if any.. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and caliber. But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and contribute for this discussions] --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009  Dear Sunil ji very explicit and meaningful eloberation.thanx a lot.God bless vrkrishnan --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala wrote: sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha Saturday, April 25, 2009, 4:57 AM ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical astronomy and mathematical astrology) Written by Sunil Nair Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and mathematical astrology. Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by many. So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting reasons such as – 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time interacted 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc – to name a few. Mathematical part of astrological astronomy Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the main branches or heads. 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and Ganita (calculation) 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some part of Nimitta 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group or particular geographical location etc ) – in this context it is also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, Nature and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities and in short spherical astronomy. 3) Nimitta –deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) – mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to body language, events and so on. 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by a qurrent 5) Muhurta – selection of auspicious time for success in religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any undertaking. 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of planets, solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita skanta) – there are numerous ideas present in astrologia mathematics that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita texts. Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer is expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate calculations. So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a different angle – the deal with what we see, observe, experience as seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. Some words on Charlatans Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded and was given `as observed from earth' – erroneously terming it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and useless. So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. They act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for truth – while in truth they are into their missionary mission of destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention – but only distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand the real meanings and context of those words or its application in Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. Sidhantas: how realistic are they? The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta), but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma; Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice to us is that – we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who in the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive generation of scholars? They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and twisting everything. Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position (physical position) of planets – i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc – all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary positions – the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) are totally wrong. The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - Viknjaya cha laghu thantram drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa ganakanam santhosha pradam maya grahana mandanam kriyathe (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools. The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles laid down by ancient sages. [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article – if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and caliber. But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and contribute for this discussions] --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 dear vinay ji I am not a scholar or a sidhanthi ,my forte was only phala jyothisha ,the reasons i searched for sidhantic tradition in astrologia is due to the so called attacks of some ppl who after wearing hindu mask attacking who ever contributed to astrology even if famous rishies and called them frauds or charlattan or fakes .U know in south sidha tradition ( they were acharyas in almost all sastras like agastya ,pulastya and kashyapa etc same names u can find in Hindu mythology/puranas and other treatises too but in south we blv they lived in our soil ) also similarly contributed to astrology and i strt doubting how can it b possible and all my writing ( after searching the truth ) frm there onwards was based contribution of south or kerala in various fields ( it is not due to i am against north indians but i can tell only what i know or i am sure abt it --where as u can see i use hindu's in geographical sense of all indians means i am not against any religions or races ) ,similarly take this article as first step of a nursery kid and yes i realy criticised u in this article but in scholary way ,same way i did with many other scholar giving full due respect and i never think i know every thing ( sure i do fight with half baked guru's or 3 months into astrology gurus who dont know even how to giv respect to a pundit or a scholar ) so still i re-iterate that i am no match for ur scholarship sure i said i will test ur chart when it become consumer frndly it is because of 2 reasons (i informed u In our prvt mails which we still carry on alternativ days basis ) 1) i am basicaly an astrologer ,so i cannot test any thing on my customers ,so passive testing with a longer period only possible ( otherwise it will b like a doctor testing new medicine directly on his patient ) 2) i am not a computer savvy person ( that is the main reason i cannot type all that sanskrit shlokas with aid of other tools and some one is helping me where ever is required ) 3 ) if downloading a SW i hav to take help frm some one ,means i need to pay for him every time in case it fails i already told in this article it is not my opinion but i gathered what i feel this may b true due to specific words used by acharyas ,r u saying aryabhatta or parameshwara acharya is wrong ?? similarly i asked ur opinion almost 5 days b4 when this was ready for post and even invited ur incisive opinions ( what ever it is -even if abuse ) and i promised u also it will b post in other grp also asked u to participate directly incase u r ready as rgrds to my grp i am not one there and there is so many ppl there and i cannot personaly stop any one unless they used some foul launguage that also i can giv them first warning and banning etc i can do only in democratic way as it will b a joint decision as decided earlier other wise even when i meet u personaly or even when u wrote in this same forum ( or even our prvt mails ) i never used any thing bad against u so wat i need is truth who ever is right or wrong is immaterial we r here for hindu jyothisha ( not for making some name or quick profit ) and irrespectiv age or any barrier it shud passed on to other sincere and serious takers even if he is frm alaska and it is duty of us i blv entrusted by rishies and our ancesters sorry for any words in this reply if it hurt u and go ahed with ur search and reserch on sidhanthas take wat ever i am asking as a query of a serious student of sidhantha only with personal regrds sunil nair , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Reply to Mr Sunil Nair's inroads into Siddhantic Jyotisha : > > It is amusing to read Mr Sunil Nair. Here, I am pointing at some glaring mistakes in his statements ensuing from his lack of knowledge of those very texts on which he comment. > > He says : <<< " Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) are archaic in nature. " >>> > > Mr Nair never read even one page of Varaha Mihira's Panch-siddhaantika, that is why he says so. The above statement is a verbatim copy of what Varaha Mihira wrote in the initial page of Panch-siddhaantika, and Mr Nair imagines Varaha Mihira said something different !! If Prasna Marga used some ideas of Varaha Mihira , how those very ideas became alienated from Varaha Mihira !!! > > Without reading the siddhanta grantha of Varaha Mihira, Mr Nair says : " " Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary phenomenon " . Varaha Mihira never said so. He said Suryasiddhanta is most clear among all siddhantas, and made no attempt to change it. Mr Nair makes another wrong statement : " Why Varahamihira .... tried to improve it ? " He should show the verse in which Varaha Mihira made such alleged attempts. > > While warring with some wrong headed calendar reformers, Mr Nair makes another wrong statement : " Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other. " Ptolemy's Almagest and Suryasiddhanta have same basic framework, on account of which many Western scholars say Suryasiddhanta was based upon Almagest. But even Burgess accepts that Suryasiddhanta lacks some improvements which Ptolemy brought about due to physical observation, eg second inequality in Moon's equation, which all Indian siddhantas lacked till modern age. Hence, if Suryasiddhanta is more primitive, it must be older than Almagest and not vice versa. Mr Nair should read Almagest, Suryasiddhanta , Panchsiddhantika, etc, before making careless statements on public forums. > > Mr Nair does not know that Burgess was the first commentator of Suryasiddhanta who considered beeja-samskaara not to be a part of Suryasiddhanta. All previous experts of Suryasiddhanta accepted beeja-samskaara in Suryasiddhanta, which is indicated in verse-9 of chapter-1 ( This verse cannot be interpreted as updating basic theory, but as updating beeja corrections. There were 22 shlokas of beeja samskaara which were updated from time to time and were appended in the last portion of the text. Burgess removed those verses) , and whose proof is the long tradition of Suryasiddhantic panchangas made from Suryasiddhantic Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD ; Diwakara Bhatta even expalined the values of beeja samskaaras used in earlier Suryasiddhantic tables. Mr Nair believes in Burgess in saying that " so called beeja corrections are not required " . Suryasiddhantic tradition required beeja-samskaara from earliest times, be it Panchsiddhantika of Varaha Mihira or > Siamese Tables (preserved in France) based on 7th century AD Suryasiddhantic tables or Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD. > > Mr Nair has no interest in testing the validity of Saurapaksha. He told me that he will test Kundalee only after everyone else accepts it. This biased attitude is based upon a psychological mindset which declares : " Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) are totally wrong. > > Mind the words " only as spiritual unrelated to reality " ! He means " spiritual " is " unrelated to reality " , and reality is merely " physical reality " . Although these materialists are younger to me, I never address them, including Mr Nair, with first names, as Mr Nair is doing. I left AIA due to abusive behaviour of Mr Nair's team, and he has started the same again here. Decency in personal behaviour is a part of spiritualism which is " unreal " to Mr Nair. Adherence to Truth and honesty is also related to spiritualism , which is not needed in making false statements like : " Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. " Where did Varahamihira say so ? Cite the verse from his siddhantika. Mr Nair has no right to impose his own ideas on Varahamihira. > > There is no cure for prejudice , but there are many cures for false propaganda, which I will continue to apply. I myself believed in the reality of physical things, till I tested Suryasiddhanta without a bias. I know Mr Nair is basically a good person, but what he needs is some impartiality, which cannot be purchased in market and should be acquired through some tapasyaa. > > -VJ > ========= ============= ========= > > > ________________________________ > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:27:56 PM > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > Written by Sunil Nair > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > mathematical astrology. > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by > many. > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > reasons such as †" > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > interacted > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to name a > few. > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > main branches or heads. > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > Ganita (calculation) > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > part of Nimitta > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context it is > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, Nature > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this > way itself.. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > and in short spherical astronomy. > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to body > language, events and so on. > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > a qurrent > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > undertaking. > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of planets, > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia mathematics > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita > texts. > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i..e. Ganita, an astrologer is > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > calculations. > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, experience as > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > Some words on Charlatans > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously terming > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and > useless. > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments.. They > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary mission of > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but only > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it.. > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta), > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma; > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who in > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > generation of scholars? > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and > twisting everything. > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) > are totally wrong. > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again > found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools. > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles > laid down by ancient sages. > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article > †" if any.. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and caliber. > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and > contribute for this discussions] > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 dear Krishnan ji namaskar thanks for ur good words and blessing with regrds sunil nair , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > >  > Dear Sunil ji > very explicit and meaningful eloberation.thanx a lot.God bless > vrkrishnan > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 4:57 AM > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > Written by Sunil Nair > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > mathematical astrology. > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by > many. > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > reasons such as †" > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > interacted > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to name a > few. > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > main branches or heads. > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > Ganita (calculation) > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > part of Nimitta > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context it is > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, Nature > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this > way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > and in short spherical astronomy. > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to body > language, events and so on. > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > a qurrent > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > undertaking. > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of planets, > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia mathematics > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita > texts. > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer is > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > calculations. > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, experience as > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > Some words on Charlatans > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously terming > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and > useless. > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. They > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary mission of > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but only > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta), > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma; > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who in > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > generation of scholars? > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and > twisting everything. > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) > are totally wrong. > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again > found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools. > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles > laid down by ancient sages. > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article > †" if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and caliber. > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and > contribute for this discussions] > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 dear vinay ji I am not a scholar or a sidhanthi ,my forte was only phala jyothisha ,the reasons i searched for sidhantic tradition in astrologia is due to the so called attacks of some ppl who after wearing hindu mask attacking who ever contributed to astrology even if famous rishies and called them frauds or charlattan or fakes .U know in south sidha tradition ( they were acharyas in almost all sastras like agastya ,pulastya and kashyapa etc same names u can find in Hindu mythology/puranas and other treatises too but in south we blv they lived in our soil ) also similarly contributed to astrology and i strt doubting how can it b possible and all my writing ( after searching the truth ) frm there onwards was based contribution of south or kerala in various fields ( it is not due to i am against north indians but i can tell only what i know or i am sure abt it --where as u can see i use hindu's in geographical sense of all indians means i am not against any religions or races ) ,similarly take this article as first step of a nursery kid and yes i realy criticised u in this article but in scholary way ,same way i did with many other scholar giving full due respect and i never think i know every thing ( sure i do fight with half baked guru's or 3 months into astrology gurus who dont know even how to giv respect to a pundit or a scholar ) so still i re-iterate that i am no match for ur scholarship sure i said i will test ur chart when it become consumer frndly it is because of 2 reasons (i informed u In our prvt mails which we still carry on alternativ days basis ) 1) i am basicaly an astrologer ,so i cannot test any thing on my customers ,so passive testing with a longer period only possible ( otherwise it will b like a doctor testing new medicine directly on his patient ) 2) i am not a computer savvy person ( that is the main reason i cannot type all that sanskrit shlokas with aid of other tools and some one is helping me where ever is required ) 3 ) if downloading a SW i hav to take help frm some one ,means i need to pay for him every time in case it fails i already told in this article it is not my opinion but i gathered what i feel this may b true due to specific words used by acharyas ,r u saying aryabhatta or parameshwara acharya is wrong ?? similarly i asked ur opinion almost 5 days b4 when this was ready for post and even invited ur incisive opinions ( what ever it is -even if abuse ) and i promised u also it will b post in other grp also asked u to participate directly incase u r ready as rgrds to my grp i am not one there and there is so many ppl there and i cannot personaly stop any one unless they used some foul launguage that also i can giv them first warning and banning etc i can do only in democratic way as it will b a joint decision as decided earlier other wise even when i meet u personaly or even when u wrote in this same forum ( or even our prvt mails ) i never used any thing bad against u so wat i need is truth who ever is right or wrong is immaterial we r here for hindu jyothisha ( not for making some name or quick profit ) and irrespectiv age or any barrier it shud passed on to other sincere and serious takers even if he is frm alaska and it is duty of us i blv entrusted by rishies and our ancesters sorry for any words in this reply if it hurt u and go ahed with ur search and reserch on sidhanthas take wat ever i am asking as a query of a serious student of sidhantha only with personal regrds sunil nair , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:>> > , Vinay Jha vinayjhaa16@> wrote:> > Reply to Mr Sunil Nair's inroads into Siddhantic Jyotisha :> > It is amusing to read Mr Sunil Nair. Here, I am pointing at some glaring> mistakes in his statements ensuing from his lack of knowledge of those> very texts on which he comment.> > He says : <<<"Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira> (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it> was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its> author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more> accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and> Paulisa) are archaic in nature.">>>> > Mr Nair never read even one page of Varaha Mihira's Panch-siddhaantika,> that is why he says so. The above statement is a verbatim copy of what> Varaha Mihira wrote in the initial page of Panch-siddhaantika, and Mr> Nair imagines Varaha Mihira said something different !! If Prasna Marga> used some ideas of Varaha Mihira , how those very ideas became alienated> from Varaha Mihira !!!> > Without reading the siddhanta grantha of Varaha Mihira, Mr Nair says :> ""Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with> present day planetary phenomenon". Varaha Mihira never said so. He said> Suryasiddhanta is most clear among all siddhantas, and made no attempt> to change it. Mr Nair makes another wrong statement : "Why Varahamihira> ... tried to improve it ?" He should show the verse in which Varaha> Mihira made such alleged attempts.> > While warring with some wrong headed calendar reformers, Mr Nair makes> another wrong statement : "Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly> indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other." > Ptolemy's Almagest and Suryasiddhanta have same basic framework, on> account of which many Western scholars say Suryasiddhanta was based upon> Almagest. But even Burgess accepts that Suryasiddhanta lacks some> improvements which Ptolemy brought about due to physical observation, eg> second inequality in Moon's equation, which all Indian siddhantas lacked> till modern age. Hence, if Suryasiddhanta is more primitive, it must be> older than Almagest and not vice versa. Mr Nair should read Almagest,> Suryasiddhanta , Panchsiddhantika, etc, before making careless> statements on public forums.> > Mr Nair does not know that Burgess was the first commentator of> Suryasiddhanta who considered beeja-samskaara not to be a part of> Suryasiddhanta. All previous experts of Suryasiddhanta accepted> beeja-samskaara in Suryasiddhanta, which is indicated in verse-9 of> chapter-1 ( This verse cannot be interpreted as updating basic theory,> but as updating beeja corrections. There were 22 shlokas of beeja> samskaara which were updated from time to time and were appended in the> last portion of the text. Burgess removed those verses) , and whose> proof is the long tradition of Suryasiddhantic panchangas made from> Suryasiddhantic Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD ; Diwakara Bhatta even> expalined the values of beeja samskaaras used in earlier Suryasiddhantic> tables. Mr Nair believes in Burgess in saying that "so called beeja> corrections are not required". Suryasiddhantic tradition required> beeja-samskaara from earliest times, be it Panchsiddhantika of Varaha> Mihira or> Siamese Tables (preserved in France) based on 7th century AD> Suryasiddhantic tables or Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD.> > Mr Nair has no interest in testing the validity of Saurapaksha. He told> me that he will test Kundalee only after everyone else accepts it. This> biased attitude is based upon a psychological mindset which declares :> "Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based> planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical> reality) are totally wrong.> > Mind the words "only as spiritual unrelated to reality" ! He> means"spiritual" is "unrelated to reality", and reality is merely> "physical reality". Although these materialists are younger to me, I> never address them, including Mr Nair, with first names, as Mr Nair is> doing. I left AIA due to abusive behaviour of Mr Nair's team, and he has> started the same again here. Decency in personal behaviour is a part of> spiritualism which is "unreal" to Mr Nair. Adherence to Truth and> honesty is also related to spiritualism , which is not needed in making> false statements like : "Varahamihira himself tells us that in the> absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became> obsolete." Where did Varahamihira say so ? Cite the verse from his> siddhantika. Mr Nair has no right to impose his own ideas on> Varahamihira.> > There is no cure for prejudice , but there are many cures for false> propaganda, which I will continue to apply. I myself believed in the> reality of physical things, till I tested Suryasiddhanta without a bias.> I know Mr Nair is basically a good person, but what he needs is some> impartiality, which cannot be purchased in market and should be acquired> through some tapasyaa.> > -VJ> ========= ============= =========> > > ________________________________> sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@> > Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:27:56 PM> Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of> Jyothisha> > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "sunil nair"> <astro_tellerkerala wrote:> > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical> astronomy and mathematical astrology)> > Written by Sunil Nair> > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and> astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part> of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and> mathematical astrology.> > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going> in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed> analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by> many.> > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what> Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and> even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be> true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the> astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala> was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting> reasons such as â€"> > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time> interacted> > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained> the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world.> > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it> preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara> hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a> commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc â€" to name> a> few.> > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy> > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major> branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas> are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is> considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia).> > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas> (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is> `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'.> Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches> of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta> (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and> Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia).> > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the> main branches or heads.> > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and> Ganita (calculation)> > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some> part of Nimitta> > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta.> It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group> or particular geographical location etc ) â€" in this context it is> also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes> in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants,> Nature> and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful> natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything> related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta.> > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this> way itself.. The six Angas can be described as follows -> > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of> rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position> > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities> and in short spherical astronomy.> > 3) Nimitta â€"deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana)> â€" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to> body> language, events and so on.> > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by> a qurrent> > 5) Muhurta â€" selection of auspicious time for success in> religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any> undertaking.> > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or> mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that> deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia.> > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics> > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in> 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era> date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of planets,> solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar> conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and> setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach> between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita> skanta) â€" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia> mathematics> that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern> astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions> etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the> same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the> astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the> other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta> ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam,> Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita> texts.> > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra> here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated.> Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra> like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike.> Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this> that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It> is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just> something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness.> It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique)> valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of> Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well.> > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i..e. Ganita, an astrologer is> expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating> eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets> and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is> the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the> epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it> would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to> be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not> considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the> orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are> elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called> beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the> true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when> they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one> degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter> into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The> heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and> rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra> samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate> calculations.> > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference> between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia> mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and> approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion,> retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts.> Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a> different angle â€" the deal with what we see, observe, experience> as> seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly.> > Some words on Charlatans> > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak> about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon,> ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things> that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we> observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun> was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded> and was given `as observed from earth' â€" erroneously terming> it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the> modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon> etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only> those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since> - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and> set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not> fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to> all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and> useless.> > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific> temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even> without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I> was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted> minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu> pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting> Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or> religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments.. They> act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for> truth â€" while in truth they are into their missionary mission of> destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In> their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the> extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it> is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have> any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are> not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because> saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention â€" but only> distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this> purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they> feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may> equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra> with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually> `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand> the real meanings and context of those words or its application in> Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition> based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) .> > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions,> regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used> for "loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya" (For the well> being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of> everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge> branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with> advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even> though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it..> They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to> destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective> mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma.> > Sidhantas: how realistic are they?> > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz> -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa,> Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa,> Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many> acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages> including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18> acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions> provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the> admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other> Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira.> > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5> Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is> accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta),> but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma;> Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate> (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself).> > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like> Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and> we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is> always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did.> Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in> the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice> to us is that â€" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the> Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use.> > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who in> the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They> usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading> lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even> European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards> the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama> Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not> show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas> become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and> Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of> that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying> that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary> phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive> generation of scholars?> > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective> cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately> mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they> does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people> enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from> other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and> also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and> twisting everything.> > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims> such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is> clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than> treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology> was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If> astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and> divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from> different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas> ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators> designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later> scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few> Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only> some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to> other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all> Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by> individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits?> > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed> compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts> because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not> available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha> Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga> gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the> mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing> various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's> opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate> but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa)> are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara,> Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their> Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia> mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact> that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position> (physical position) of planets â€" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9> planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some> non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it> is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha> (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and> its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc> â€" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas> like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all> these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary> positions â€" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is> true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not> the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's> arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary> positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality)> are totally wrong.> > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as> Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it> is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in> computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and> all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again> found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions> and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century> (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after> 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined> further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be> known as "Drik Ganita" (actual Planetary positions `as> observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which> explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position> of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise> also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as> Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general).> > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in> previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and> necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only> to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says -> > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram> > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa> > ganakanam santhosha pradam> > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe> > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam)> > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using> modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I> don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of> calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools.> The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles> laid down by ancient sages.> > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article> â€" if any.. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and> caliber.> But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly> opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers> who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and> contribute for this discussions]> > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Sunil Nair ji, I know you are a sincere person, but I think addressing an elder or even a non-relative youngster by first name is anainst Hindu culture. I had told you that I can join your group if words like " silly, fool, etc " are not used by any member against me, esp by Chandrahari ji and Sreenadh ji. I got no answer. Instead, I found you addressing me by firsy name. Abuse or praise is nothing to me, I did not raise a family and I do not care whether people remember me or not or whether they abuse me or praise me after I leave this planet. But I do care for the wrong remarks against foundations of Indian astrology. You are opening a war on two fronts. Either fight with the calendar-destroyers first, or fight with me. You have no moral right either to decide siddhantic matters which you have not studied properly, or to pass comments against my method without testing it. To tell you the harsh truth, I do not care whether someone uses Kundalee or not. I really do not wish everyone should use it. Suryasiddhanta forbids giving its knowledge to undeserving persons. I have two choices, either I have to distribute Kundalee as a freeware open to all, or not to distribute it at all on internet and give it only to chosen persons. I was following the second option for four years. First version of Kundalee appeared in 2005 AD, but I launched it on internet in mid 2008 only, and started propagating it through internet fora since Dec 2008, and in AIA since 1-1-2009. If you really want to test it, there is a way of downloading the whole package at single click, and installking at a single click. Only 1-2% users are now having complaints, because they have TEMP folder at different locations, but I have indicated how this problem can be solved. I know Sreenadh ji or Chandrahari ji have no interest in testing my work astrologically. What is the use of discussions, then ?? I cannot stop distributing this software just because some persons do not want to test it. The main problem with Kundalee software lies not in this software which your team does not want to test, but in your superstition in the reality of the material world, which is Maayaa to those who have renounced personal desires. Materialists like you have a vast majority in the world today. But ultimately, Truth shall prevail, and dead matter is not Truth. Unfortunately, neither you nor me will be here to see that day. Do not take my word as an offence. I am writing what I know is true. Unless you change your food habits , contacts, lifestyle, etc, you will not be able to see the wonders inherent in Kundalee. It is not a mere software. It is not my creation. I merely worked like a labourer. It is a divine gift which some prejudiced persons are rejecting. With a bias, they will never be able to judge its true worth, because real testing requires impartiality. I support Mr Chandrahari's statement that Chitrapakshiya ayanamsha is wrong because Chitra was never a reference nakshatra. But I cannot accept Mr Chandrahari's ayanamsha because it will reduce the ASTROLOGICAL accuracy of my software from 100% to ~70%. -VJ ============== ============ , " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > > > > dear vinay ji > > I am not a scholar or a sidhanthi ,my forte was only phala jyothisha > ,the reasons i searched for sidhantic tradition in astrologia is due to > the so called attacks of some ppl who after wearing hindu mask attacking > who ever contributed to astrology even if famous rishies and called them > frauds or charlattan or fakes .U know in south sidha tradition ( they > were acharyas in almost all sastras like agastya ,pulastya and kashyapa > etc same names u can find in Hindu mythology/puranas and other treatises > too but in south we blv they lived in our soil ) also similarly > contributed to astrology and i strt doubting how can it b possible and > all my writing ( after searching the truth ) frm there onwards was > based contribution of south or kerala in various fields ( it is not due > to i am against north indians but i can tell only what i know or i am > sure abt it --where as u can see i use hindu's in geographical sense of > all indians means i am not against any religions or races ) ,similarly > take this article as first step of a nursery kid and yes i realy > criticised u in this article but in scholary way ,same way i did with > many other scholar giving full due respect and i never think i know > every thing ( sure i do fight with half baked guru's or 3 months into > astrology gurus who dont know even how to giv respect to a pundit or a > scholar ) > > > > so still i re-iterate that i am no match for ur scholarship > > > > sure i said i will test ur chart when it become consumer frndly it is > because of 2 reasons > > (i informed u In our prvt mails which we still carry on alternativ days > basis ) > > > > 1) i am basicaly an astrologer ,so i cannot test any thing on my > customers ,so passive testing with a longer period only possible ( > otherwise it will b like a doctor testing new medicine directly on his > patient ) > > > > 2) i am not a computer savvy person ( that is the main reason i cannot > type all that sanskrit shlokas with aid of other tools and some one is > helping me where ever is required ) > > > > 3 ) if downloading a SW i hav to take help frm some one ,means i need to > pay for him every time in case it fails > > > > i already told in this article it is not my opinion but i gathered what > i feel this may b true due to specific words used by acharyas ,r u > saying aryabhatta or parameshwara acharya is wrong ?? > > > > similarly i asked ur opinion almost 5 days b4 when this was ready for > post and even invited ur incisive opinions ( what ever it is -even if > abuse ) and i promised u also it will b post in other grp also asked u > to participate directly incase u r ready > > as rgrds to my grp i am not one there and there is so many ppl there and > i cannot personaly stop any one unless they used some foul launguage > that also i can giv them first warning and banning etc i can do only in > democratic way as it will b a joint decision as decided earlier > > > > other wise even when i meet u personaly or even when u wrote in this > same forum ( or even our prvt mails ) i never used any thing bad > against u > > so wat i need is truth who ever is right or wrong is immaterial > > > > we r here for hindu jyothisha ( not for making some name or quick profit > ) and irrespectiv age or any barrier it shud passed on to other sincere > and serious takers even if he is frm alaska and it is duty of us i blv > entrusted by rishies and our ancesters > > sorry for any words in this reply if it hurt u and go ahed with ur > search and reserch on sidhanthas > > take wat ever i am asking as a query of a serious student of sidhantha > only > > > > with personal regrds sunil nair > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@> > wrote: > > > > Reply to Mr Sunil Nair's inroads into Siddhantic Jyotisha : > > > > It is amusing to read Mr Sunil Nair. Here, I am pointing at some > glaring mistakes in his statements ensuing from his lack of knowledge of > those very texts on which he comment. > > > > He says : <<< " Prasna Marga gives a different opinion than Varahamihira > (may be due to the mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it > was discussing various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its > author's opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more > accurate but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and > Paulisa) are archaic in nature. " >>> > > > > Mr Nair never read even one page of Varaha Mihira's > Panch-siddhaantika, that is why he says so. The above statement is a > verbatim copy of what Varaha Mihira wrote in the initial page of > Panch-siddhaantika, and Mr Nair imagines Varaha Mihira said something > different !! If Prasna Marga used some ideas of Varaha Mihira , how > those very ideas became alienated from Varaha Mihira !!! > > > > Without reading the siddhanta grantha of Varaha Mihira, Mr Nair says : > " " Varahamihira saying that those calculations are not at par with > present day planetary phenomenon " . Varaha Mihira never said so. He said > Suryasiddhanta is most clear among all siddhantas, and made no attempt > to change it. Mr Nair makes another wrong statement : " Why Varahamihira > ... tried to improve it ? " He should show the verse in which Varaha > Mihira made such alleged attempts. > > > > While warring with some wrong headed calendar reformers, Mr Nair makes > another wrong statement : " Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly > indicate that they does not borrow anything from each other. " Ptolemy's > Almagest and Suryasiddhanta have same basic framework, on account of > which many Western scholars say Suryasiddhanta was based upon Almagest. > But even Burgess accepts that Suryasiddhanta lacks some improvements > which Ptolemy brought about due to physical observation, eg second > inequality in Moon's equation, which all Indian siddhantas lacked till > modern age. Hence, if Suryasiddhanta is more primitive, it must be older > than Almagest and not vice versa. Mr Nair should read Almagest, > Suryasiddhanta , Panchsiddhantika, etc, before making careless > statements on public forums. > > > > Mr Nair does not know that Burgess was the first commentator of > Suryasiddhanta who considered beeja-samskaara not to be a part of > Suryasiddhanta. All previous experts of Suryasiddhanta accepted > beeja-samskaara in Suryasiddhanta, which is indicated in verse-9 of > chapter-1 ( This verse cannot be interpreted as updating basic theory, > but as updating beeja corrections. There were 22 shlokas of beeja > samskaara which were updated from time to time and were appended in the > last portion of the text. Burgess removed those verses) , and whose > proof is the long tradition of Suryasiddhantic panchangas made from > Suryasiddhantic Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD ; Diwakara Bhatta even > expalined the values of beeja samskaaras used in earlier Suryasiddhantic > tables. Mr Nair believes in Burgess in saying that " so called beeja > corrections are not required " . Suryasiddhantic tradition required > beeja-samskaara from earliest times, be it Panchsiddhantika of Varaha > Mihira or > > Siamese Tables (preserved in France) based on 7th century AD > Suryasiddhantic tables or Makaranda Tables of 1478 AD. > > > > Mr Nair has no interest in testing the validity of Saurapaksha. He > told me that he will test Kundalee only after everyone else accepts it. > This biased attitude is based upon a psychological mindset which > declares : " Vinay's arguments and approach (of considering Surya > Siddhanta based planetary positions only as spiritual unrelated to > reality than physical reality) are totally wrong. > > > > Mind the words " only as spiritual unrelated to reality " ! He > means " spiritual " is " unrelated to reality " , and reality is merely > " physical reality " . Although these materialists are younger to me, I > never address them, including Mr Nair, with first names, as Mr Nair is > doing. I left AIA due to abusive behaviour of Mr Nair's team, and he has > started the same again here. Decency in personal behaviour is a part of > spiritualism which is " unreal " to Mr Nair. Adherence to Truth and > honesty is also related to spiritualism , which is not needed in making > false statements like : " Varahamihira himself tells us that in the > absence of proper updating, in the changing times many Sidhantas became > obsolete. " Where did Varahamihira say so ? Cite the verse from his > siddhantika. Mr Nair has no right to impose his own ideas on > Varahamihira. > > > > There is no cure for prejudice , but there are many cures for false > propaganda, which I will continue to apply. I myself believed in the > reality of physical things, till I tested Suryasiddhanta without a bias. > I know Mr Nair is basically a good person, but what he needs is some > impartiality, which cannot be purchased in market and should be acquired > through some tapasyaa. > > > > -VJ > > ========= ============= ========= > > > > > > ________________________________ > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:27:56 PM > > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of > Jyothisha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > > > Written by Sunil Nair > > > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical > part > > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > > mathematical astrology. > > > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without > going > > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by > > many. > > > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what > > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions > and > > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be > > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala > > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > > reasons such as †" > > > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > > interacted > > > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara > > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to name > a > > few. > > > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major > > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 > Skanthas > > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas > > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), > Nimitta > > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and > > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > > main branches or heads. > > > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > > Ganita (calculation) > > > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > > part of Nimitta > > > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, > group > > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context it > is > > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes > > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, > Nature > > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. > > > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this > > way itself.. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > > and in short spherical astronomy. > > > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to > body > > language, events and so on. > > > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > > a qurrent > > > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > > undertaking. > > > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in > > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era > > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of > planets, > > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar > > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of > approach > > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita > > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia > mathematics > > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions > > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the > > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or > the > > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita > > texts. > > > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word > tantra > > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. > > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra > > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It > > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > > something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. > > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of > > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i..e. Ganita, an astrologer > is > > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets > > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is > > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which > it > > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to > > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the > > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the > > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha > when > > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one > > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter > > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > > calculations. > > > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. > > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, > experience as > > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > > > Some words on Charlatans > > > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak > > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things > > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that > Sun > > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded > > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously terming > > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, > horizon > > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only > > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that > since > > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus > and > > useless. > > > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming > scientific > > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I > > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted > > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu > > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting > > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or > > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments.. They > > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for > > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary mission > of > > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. > In > > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to > the > > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are > > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because > > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but > only > > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever > they > > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they > may > > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra > > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words > usually > > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be > used > > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of > > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and > knowledge > > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it.. > > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective > > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, > > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 > > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions > > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) > is > > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka > Siddhanta), > > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha > (Brahma; > > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not > accurate > > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those > like > > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and > > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, > in > > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice > > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of > the > > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who > in > > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. > They > > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is > spreading > > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards > > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not > > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas > of > > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > > generation of scholars? > > > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they > > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and > > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts > and > > twisting everything. > > > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims > > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. > Astrology > > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas > > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula > originators > > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available > only > > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior > to > > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga > > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more > accurate > > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and > Paulisa) > > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia > > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very > fact > > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position > > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some > > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it > > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening > etc > > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas > > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So > all > > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real > planetary > > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha > is > > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is > not > > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary > > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical > reality) > > are totally wrong. > > > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that > it > > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used > in > > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and > > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again > > found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions > > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th > century > > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections > after > > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary > position > > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise > > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as > > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only > > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence > using > > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern > tools. > > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles > > laid down by ancient sages. > > > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article > > †" if any.. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and > caliber. > > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly > > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all > astrologers > > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join > and > > contribute for this discussions] > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Dear Shri Sunil Ji, You have made very detailed wrire and self explanatory. Infact what ever kundalee soft ware Mr Vinay Jha proposed can be tried and tested.In any case predictions and analysis are individual's efforts based on understanding of GRahachara. regards vrkrishnan --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala wrote: sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Re: Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha Saturday, April 25, 2009, 1:06 PM dear Krishnan ji namaskar thanks for ur good words and blessing with regrds sunil nair , vattem krishnan <bursar_99@. ..> wrote: > >  > Dear Sunil ji > very explicit and meaningful eloberation. thanx a lot.God bless > vrkrishnan > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... wrote: > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 4:57 AM > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > Written by Sunil Nair > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical part > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > mathematical astrology. > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without going > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by > many. > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions and > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > reasons such as †" > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > interacted > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to name a > few. > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 Skanthas > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), Nimitta > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > main branches or heads. > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > Ganita (calculation) > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > part of Nimitta > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, group > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context it is > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, Nature > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this > way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > and in short spherical astronomy. > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to body > language, events and so on. > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > a qurrent > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > undertaking. > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of planets, > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of approach > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia mathematics > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or the > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita > texts. > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word tantra > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer is > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which it > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha when > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > calculations. > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, experience as > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > Some words on Charlatans > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that Sun > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously terming > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, horizon > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that since > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus and > useless. > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming scientific > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. They > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary mission of > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. In > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to the > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but only > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever they > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they may > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words usually > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be used > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and knowledge > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) is > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka Siddhanta), > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha (Brahma; > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not accurate > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those like > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, in > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of the > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who in > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. They > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is spreading > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas of > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > generation of scholars? > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts and > twisting everything. > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. Astrology > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula originators > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available only > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior to > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more accurate > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and Paulisa) > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very fact > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening etc > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So all > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real planetary > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha is > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is not > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical reality) > are totally wrong. > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that it > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used in > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again > found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th century > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections after > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary position > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence using > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern tools. > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles > laid down by ancient sages. > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article > †" if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and caliber. > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all astrologers > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join and > contribute for this discussions] > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 dear shri krishnan ji sure ,i wrote what i know and we hindu s follow our traditions and paramparas and also what we find true frm our exprnces . I know shri vinay shah ji personalay and i hav seen his brahma tejas in him and i hav no reason to doubt his authenticity or sincerity ,tho he got upset with me with the way i deal the mails in a famous grp ,it is my limitations and there is so many other moderaters also there and it need not b i am passing all mails and being a democratic forum i hav limitations too . shri prashanth ji knows it and here atleast he is blessed with he is the only person who decides everything but i hav to cater to needs of various persons and even at times we dont know who is who when they appear first time in grp and their real intentions . so as regrds to sidhanthas either suara paksha has to b correct or its modified (or like vinay shah ji says corrupted /misunderstood )version called drik paksha is correct ,not both. here even we cannot escape by saying famous upanishath mantra ekam sath vipra bahuda vadanthi ( scholars says diffrnt things but the truth is one ) we shud find what is true and shud accept it also i suggest shri vinay shaji to charge some money for this SW and make it more consumr frndly and distribute like gr8 jhora software ( or find a sponsor ) he need only to include money which he spends for this SW ( just cover the expenses ) so ppl like us can dowload it and test it and i also suggest him to take up few cases and explain us one by one or by his written articles uploading in this grps ( it has to show the positions of planets /lagna and other specification independ ly with dgrees than link to his SW as those who un able to download his SW cannot understand it ) we r not against or has no personal prejudices against a purticular person and i blv the spark of jupiter in a person ( that is wat we call gurutwa In our language ) should b respected . We indians never executed or burned any one even if they r saying some thing diffrnt than popular or major views ,so we hav charvakas ,samkhyas ,budhists and jains and hindus and they liv here in this karma bhoomi peacefully too . we r only against those who came to disturb the sanctity of astrology by learning it few months and attack or critisise gurus or elder persons or acting as big maha gurus . sure we hav diffrnt views and some times we resort to a tough language also when arguing depnding on mood of persons but all this has to b forgiv and forget in the name of astro -fraternity with most personal regrds rgrds sunil nair , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Dear Shri Sunil Ji, > You have made very detailed wrire and self explanatory. > Infact what ever kundalee soft ware Mr Vinay Jha proposed can be tried and tested.In any case predictions and analysis are individual's efforts based on understanding of GRahachara. > regards > vrkrishnan > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala > Re: Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 1:06 PM > > > > dear Krishnan ji > > namaskar > > thanks for ur good words and blessing > > with regrds sunil nair > > , vattem krishnan bursar_99@ ...> > wrote: > > > >  > > Dear Sunil ji > > very explicit and meaningful eloberation. thanx a lot.God bless > > vrkrishnan > > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... wrote: > > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... > > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of > Jyothisha > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 4:57 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > > > Written by Sunil Nair > > > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical > part > > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > > mathematical astrology. > > > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without > going > > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by > > many. > > > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what > > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions > and > > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be > > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala > > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > > reasons such as †" > > > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > > interacted > > > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara > > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to name > a > > few. > > > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major > > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 > Skanthas > > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas > > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), > Nimitta > > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and > > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > > main branches or heads. > > > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > > Ganita (calculation) > > > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > > part of Nimitta > > > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, > group > > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context it > is > > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes > > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, > Nature > > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. > > > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this > > way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > > and in short spherical astronomy. > > > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to > body > > language, events and so on. > > > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > > a qurrent > > > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > > undertaking. > > > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in > > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era > > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of > planets, > > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar > > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of > approach > > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita > > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia > mathematics > > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions > > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the > > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or > the > > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita > > texts. > > > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word > tantra > > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. > > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra > > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It > > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > > something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. > > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of > > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer > is > > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets > > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is > > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which > it > > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to > > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the > > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the > > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha > when > > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one > > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter > > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > > calculations. > > > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. > > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, > experience as > > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > > > Some words on Charlatans > > > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak > > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things > > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that > Sun > > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded > > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously terming > > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, > horizon > > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only > > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that > since > > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus > and > > useless. > > > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming > scientific > > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I > > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted > > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu > > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting > > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or > > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. They > > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for > > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary mission > of > > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. > In > > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to > the > > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are > > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because > > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but > only > > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever > they > > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they > may > > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra > > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words > usually > > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be > used > > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of > > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and > knowledge > > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. > > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective > > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, > > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 > > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions > > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) > is > > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka > Siddhanta), > > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha > (Brahma; > > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not > accurate > > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those > like > > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and > > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, > in > > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice > > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of > the > > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who > in > > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. > They > > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is > spreading > > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards > > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not > > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas > of > > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > > generation of scholars? > > > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they > > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and > > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts > and > > twisting everything. > > > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims > > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. > Astrology > > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas > > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula > originators > > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available > only > > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior > to > > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga > > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more > accurate > > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and > Paulisa) > > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia > > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very > fact > > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position > > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some > > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it > > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening > etc > > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas > > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So > all > > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real > planetary > > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha > is > > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is > not > > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary > > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical > reality) > > are totally wrong. > > > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that > it > > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used > in > > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and > > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again > > found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions > > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th > century > > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections > after > > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary > position > > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise > > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as > > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only > > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence > using > > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern > tools. > > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles > > laid down by ancient sages. > > > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article > > †" if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and > caliber. > > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly > > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all > astrologers > > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join > and > > contribute for this discussions] > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Mr Sunil Nair says : " either suara paksha has to b correct or its modified (or like vinay shah ji says corrupted /misunderstood )version called drik paksha is correct ,not both. " He has misunderstood me. Drik-paksha is not a modified or corrupt version of Saura-paksha. Both are equally true and valid aspects of same basic theory. Drikpaksha is for physical world (bhooloka) open to sense perception of mortals. Saurapaksha is about Bhuvaloka which cannot be directly perceived sensorily without tapasyaa as Mayaasura performed. It is useless to prove or disprove the existence of deities like Suryadeva or Chandradeva in Bhuvaloka by means of rhetoric. The only proof is astrological testing. For developing a software for all platforms will need all platforms on all sorts of computers in my room, with all experts of all those platforms. And even after such a all-platform is perfected, some new version of Gates or Windows or Ventilators will arrive which will call this whole exercize once again. I renounced my ancestral paternal properties long ago, why should I become a grihastha again for a purpose which will not help in my own salvation ? I cannot charge money for my astrological works, it is forbidden for a monk. Anyone else will not invest unless he / she is assured about returns. I got such a sponsor long ago, but he wanted a heavy price (Rs 2000 - 4000) for each CD, which I rejected. He later tried to sell Kundalee on a limited scale clandestinely, for fear of action from me. I tested my software on Win98 and all service packs of WinXP. An overwhelming majority of users have these OS. Out of 355 downloads in past 3 days, onlt 7 have complained about installation problem, and all these problems are related to version difference or difference in settings like location of TEMP folder, which is to be corrected by the user. I am trying to find out why these problems occur. I made many case studies, but Mr Sunil Nair and his friends wasted my time over historical debates and refused to read the case studies at my website, eg Prediction of Death, Brain Damage, etc. I will put more case studies there. Sunil Nair is unable to check his offensive language. He mixes praises with abuses. He finds the spark of Jupiter in me (not knowing that my Jupiter is in moolatrikona) but adds : " we r only against those who came to disturb the sanctity of astrology by learning it few months and attack or critisise gurus or elder persons or acting as big maha gurus ...sure we hav diffrnt views and some times we resort to a tough language also when arguing depnding on mood of persons but all this has to b forgiv and forget in the name of astro -fraternity " . It is a false charge on me. Mr Sreenadh is unrepentent for his abuses. I forgave and forsook his group. What else I am expected to do ? -VJ =============== ============= ________________________________ sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:28:25 AM Re: Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha dear shri krishnan ji sure ,i wrote what i know and we hindu s follow our traditions and paramparas and also what we find true frm our exprnces . I know shri vinay shah ji personalay and i hav seen his brahma tejas in him and i hav no reason to doubt his authenticity or sincerity ,tho he got upset with me with the way i deal the mails in a famous grp ,it is my limitations and there is so many other moderaters also there and it need not b i am passing all mails and being a democratic forum i hav limitations too . shri prashanth ji knows it and here atleast he is blessed with he is the only person who decides everything but i hav to cater to needs of various persons and even at times we dont know who is who when they appear first time in grp and their real intentions . so as regrds to sidhanthas either suara paksha has to b correct or its modified (or like vinay shah ji says corrupted /misunderstood )version called drik paksha is correct ,not both. here even we cannot escape by saying famous upanishath mantra ekam sath vipra bahuda vadanthi ( scholars says diffrnt things but the truth is one ) we shud find what is true and shud accept it also i suggest shri vinay shaji to charge some money for this SW and make it more consumr frndly and distribute like gr8 jhora software ( or find a sponsor ) he need only to include money which he spends for this SW ( just cover the expenses ) so ppl like us can dowload it and test it and i also suggest him to take up few cases and explain us one by one or by his written articles uploading in this grps ( it has to show the positions of planets /lagna and other specification independ ly with dgrees than link to his SW as those who un able to download his SW cannot understand it ) we r not against or has no personal prejudices against a purticular person and i blv the spark of jupiter in a person ( that is wat we call gurutwa In our language ) should b respected . We indians never executed or burned any one even if they r saying some thing diffrnt than popular or major views ,so we hav charvakas ,samkhyas ,budhists and jains and hindus and they liv here in this karma bhoomi peacefully too . we r only against those who came to disturb the sanctity of astrology by learning it few months and attack or critisise gurus or elder persons or acting as big maha gurus . sure we hav diffrnt views and some times we resort to a tough language also when arguing depnding on mood of persons but all this has to b forgiv and forget in the name of astro -fraternity with most personal regrds rgrds sunil nair , vattem krishnan <bursar_99@. ..> wrote: > > Dear Shri Sunil Ji, > You have made very detailed wrire and self explanatory. > Infact what ever kundalee soft ware Mr Vinay Jha proposed can be tried and tested.In any case predictions and analysis are individual's efforts based on understanding of GRahachara. > regards > vrkrishnan > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... wrote: > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... > Re: Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 1:06 PM > > > > dear Krishnan ji > > namaskar > > thanks for ur good words and blessing > > with regrds sunil nair > > , vattem krishnan bursar_99@ ...> > wrote: > > > >  > > Dear Sunil ji > > very explicit and meaningful eloberation. thanx a lot.God bless > > vrkrishnan > > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... wrote: > > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... > > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of > Jyothisha > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 4:57 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > > > Written by Sunil Nair > > > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical > part > > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > > mathematical astrology. > > > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without > going > > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised by > > many. > > > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against what > > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions > and > > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to be > > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. Kerala > > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > > reasons such as †" > > > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > > interacted > > > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , Kaikulanagara > > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to name > a > > few. > > > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; major > > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 > Skanthas > > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 Angas > > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), > Nimitta > > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) and > > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > > main branches or heads. > > > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > > Ganita (calculation) > > > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > > part of Nimitta > > > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, > group > > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context it > is > > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, Changes > > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, > Nature > > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora skanta. > > > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in this > > way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > > and in short spherical astronomy. > > > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens related to > body > > language, events and so on. > > > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > > a qurrent > > > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > > undertaking. > > > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed in > > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali era > > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of > planets, > > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), Lunar > > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of > approach > > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. Ganita > > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia > mathematics > > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, combustions > > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of the > > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or > the > > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of Ganita > > texts. > > > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word > tantra > > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been originated. > > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama sastra > > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. It > > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > > something for theoretical discussion without any practical usefulness. > > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch of > > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer > is > > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of planets > > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina is > > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position which > it > > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections to > > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that the > > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get the > > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha > when > > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than one > > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can enter > > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > > calculations. > > > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia texts. > > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, > experience as > > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > > > Some words on Charlatans > > > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may speak > > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other things > > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that > Sun > > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well grounded > > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously terming > > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, > horizon > > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is only > > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that > since > > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus > and > > useless. > > > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming > scientific > > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that I > > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These corrupted > > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down Hindu > > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and converting > > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science or > > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. They > > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand for > > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary mission > of > > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. > In > > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to > the > > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas are > > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, because > > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but > only > > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever > they > > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they > may > > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, Nakshatra > > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words > usually > > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be > used > > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit of > > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and > knowledge > > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. > > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a protective > > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, > > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these 18 > > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia traditions > > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa Siddhanta) > is > > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka > Siddhanta), > > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha > (Brahma; > > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not > accurate > > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those > like > > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate and > > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper updating, > in > > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent advice > > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy of > the > > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who > in > > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. > They > > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is > spreading > > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed towards > > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it not > > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available siddhantas > of > > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > > generation of scholars? > > > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that they > > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, and > > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts > and > > twisting everything. > > > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy claims > > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. > Astrology > > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi Kulas > > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula > originators > > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available > only > > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is superior > to > > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna Marga > > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more > accurate > > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and > Paulisa) > > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta (astrologia > > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very > fact > > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual position > > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with some > > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as it > > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening > etc > > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological Sidhantas > > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So > all > > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real > planetary > > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay Jha > is > > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is > not > > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based planetary > > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical > reality) > > are totally wrong. > > > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means that > it > > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used > in > > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses and > > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is again > > found that even those calculations are differing from actual positions > > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th > century > > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections > after > > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary > position > > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is otherwise > > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known as > > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary only > > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence > using > > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern > tools. > > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive principles > > laid down by ancient sages. > > > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this article > > †" if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and > caliber. > > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites scholarly > > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all > astrologers > > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join > and > > contribute for this discussions] > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 dear vinaysha ji in last post i never said any words against u ,all other words were i was talking in general sense and was refering to so many past incidents which i was one party in many hot discussions . the saura paksha and drik paksha i mean in astronomical sense and which shud b used in delinating results in chart reading and i never said one is true or other is wrong . i am not interested in khandana prathi gandhana or vada or prati vada and quotes on the subjuct and then refuting or establishing , which is beyond my capacity as this days sidhanthas are not learned by almost all astrologers and they hav faith or blf in panchanga makers and Their own SW and the luggage of astronomical aspect of making chart they hav put on their shoulder . so i request u to re read the post i never said u dont hav blessing of jupiter or i am any way gr8er than rest of crowd or i hav gr8 powers . pls do understand my forte and usual business is astrology in predictiv sense so i am not interested in arguemnts and i am interested only in astrological testing of any thing ,also i am not answerable why others dont do it rgrds sunilnair pls i am not interested to continue this tread and where as i hav promised for many write ups / article s (even when when i came to seminar in varanasi i was sick and on medicatiion ) and i need my own time and i am still weak too i was just answering to resp krishnan ji in the last post , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Mr Sunil Nair says : " either suara paksha has to b correct or its modified (or like vinay shah ji says corrupted /misunderstood )version > called drik paksha is correct ,not both. " > > He has misunderstood me. Drik-paksha is not a modified or corrupt version of Saura-paksha. Both are equally true and valid aspects of same basic theory. Drikpaksha is for physical world (bhooloka) open to sense perception of mortals. Saurapaksha is about Bhuvaloka which cannot be directly perceived sensorily without tapasyaa as Mayaasura performed. It is useless to prove or disprove the existence of deities like Suryadeva or Chandradeva in Bhuvaloka by means of rhetoric. The only proof is astrological testing. > > For developing a software for all platforms will need all platforms on all sorts of computers in my room, with all experts of all those platforms. And even after such a all-platform is perfected, some new version of Gates or Windows or Ventilators will arrive which will call this whole exercize once again. I renounced my ancestral paternal properties long ago, why should I become a grihastha again for a purpose which will not help in my own salvation ? I cannot charge money for my astrological works, it is forbidden for a monk. Anyone else will not invest unless he / she is assured about returns. I got such a sponsor long ago, but he wanted a heavy price (Rs 2000 - 4000) for each CD, which I rejected. He later tried to sell Kundalee on a limited scale clandestinely, for fear of action from me. > > I tested my software on Win98 and all service packs of WinXP. An overwhelming majority of users have these OS. Out of 355 downloads in past 3 days, onlt 7 have complained about installation problem, and all these problems are related to version difference or difference in settings like location of TEMP folder, which is to be corrected by the user. I am trying to find out why these problems occur. > > I made many case studies, but Mr Sunil Nair and his friends wasted my time over historical debates and refused to read the case studies at my website, eg Prediction of Death, Brain Damage, etc. I will put more case studies there. > > Sunil Nair is unable to check his offensive language. He mixes praises with abuses. He finds the spark of Jupiter in me (not knowing that my Jupiter is in moolatrikona) but adds : " we r only against those who came to disturb the sanctity of astrology by learning it few months and attack or critisise gurus or elder persons or acting as big maha gurus ....sure we hav diffrnt views and some times we resort to a tough language also when arguing depnding on mood of persons but all this has to b forgiv and forget in the name of astro -fraternity " . > > It is a false charge on me. Mr Sreenadh is unrepentent for his abuses. I forgave and forsook his group. What else I am expected to do ? > > -VJ > > =============== ============= > > > ________________________________ > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:28:25 AM > Re: Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of Jyothisha > dear shri krishnan ji > > sure ,i wrote what i know and we hindu s follow our traditions and > paramparas and also what we find true frm our exprnces . > > I know shri vinay shah ji personalay and i hav seen his brahma tejas in > him and i hav no reason to doubt his authenticity or sincerity ,tho he > got upset with me with the way i deal the mails in a famous grp > ,it is my limitations and there is so many other moderaters also there > and it need not b i am passing all mails and being a democratic forum i > hav limitations too . > > shri prashanth ji knows it and here atleast he is blessed with he is the > only person who decides everything but i hav to cater to needs of > various persons and even at times we dont know who is who when they > appear first time in grp and their real intentions . > > so as regrds to sidhanthas either suara paksha has to b correct or its > modified (or like vinay shah ji says corrupted /misunderstood )version > called drik paksha is correct ,not both. > > here even we cannot escape by saying famous upanishath mantra > > ekam sath vipra bahuda vadanthi ( scholars says diffrnt things but the > truth is one ) > > we shud find what is true and shud accept it also > > i suggest shri vinay shaji to charge some money for this SW and make it > more consumr frndly and distribute like gr8 jhora software ( or find a > sponsor ) > > he need only to include money which he spends for this SW ( just cover > the expenses ) so ppl like us can dowload it and test it > > and i also suggest him to take up few cases and explain us one by one or > by his written articles uploading in this grps ( it has to show the > positions of planets /lagna and other specification independ ly with > dgrees than link to his SW as those who un able to download his SW > cannot understand it ) > > we r not against or has no personal prejudices against a purticular > person and i blv the spark of jupiter in a person ( that is wat we call > gurutwa In our language ) should b respected . > > We indians never executed or burned any one even if they r saying some > thing diffrnt than popular or major views ,so we hav charvakas ,samkhyas > ,budhists and jains and hindus and they liv here in this karma bhoomi > peacefully too . > > we r only against those who came to disturb the sanctity of astrology by > learning it few months and attack or critisise gurus or elder persons or > acting as big maha gurus . > > sure we hav diffrnt views and some times we resort to a tough language > also when arguing depnding on mood of persons but all this has to b > forgiv and forget in the name of astro -fraternity > > with most personal regrds > > rgrds sunil nair > > , vattem krishnan bursar_99@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Dear Shri Sunil Ji, > > You have made very detailed wrire and self explanatory. > > Infact what ever kundalee soft ware Mr Vinay Jha proposed can be tried > and tested.In any case predictions and analysis are individual's efforts > based on understanding of GRahachara. > > regards > > vrkrishnan > > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... wrote: > > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... > > Re: Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history > of Jyothisha > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 1:06 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dear Krishnan ji > > > > namaskar > > > > thanks for ur good words and blessing > > > > with regrds sunil nair > > > > , vattem krishnan bursar_99@ > ..> > > wrote: > > > > > >  > > > Dear Sunil ji > > > very explicit and meaningful eloberation. thanx a lot.God bless > > > vrkrishnan > > > --- On Sat, 4/25/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... wrote: > > > > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ... > > > Fwd: Sidhantas in astrology-An enquiry tru history of > > Jyothisha > > > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009, 4:57 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " > > > <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > > > > > Sidhantas in astrology --(Astrologia Mathematics: Mathematical > > > astronomy and mathematical astrology) > > > > > > Written by Sunil Nair > > > > > > Astrologia means Jyotisastra which includes both astronomy and > > > astrology. Similarly the word Siddhanta refers to the mathematical > > part > > > of astrologia which includes both mathematical astronomy and > > > mathematical astrology. > > > > > > Here I would discuss about various Sidhantas in astrologia without > > going > > > in much technical details (due to my inability for such a detailed > > > analysis, but still) trying to find answer to the questions raised > by > > > many. > > > > > > So bear with me if anything is wrong in concept and it is against > what > > > Rishis taught us, but I invite learned members opinions, suggestions > > and > > > even explanation what it may be true than what I know or thought to > be > > > true. I am basing myself only Kerala texts. This is because the > > > astrology I learned and use mainly belong to Kerala tradition. > Kerala > > > was able to preserve many astrologia texts due to two contrasting > > > reasons such as †" > > > > > > 1) due to its geographical specialty of isolation and same time > > > interacted > > > > > > 2) Since it interacted with all races in world and even retained > > > the purity irrespective of being host to all religions in world. > > > > > > The uniqueness of Kerala astrological wisdom and the knowledge it > > > preserved is evident from texts like, Like Dasadhyayi , > Kaikulanagara > > > hora, Prashna Anushtana Padhati, Prashna Marga, Uparatna sikha a > > > commentary by Punnasseri Nambi for Prashna Maarga etc †" to > name > > a > > > few. > > > > > > Mathematical part of astrological astronomy > > > > > > Ancient astrological science is divided into 3 Skanthas (heads; > major > > > branches) and further into 6 Angas (limbs; sub branches). The 3 > > Skanthas > > > are Ganita, Samhita and hora. Rishis who wrote about all this is > > > considered as Jyotisha acharyas (teachers of astrologia). > > > > > > Ancient sages classified this great Sastra of astrologia into 6 > Angas > > > (sub-branches or parts). The definition of the word `sastra' is > > > `sasyate ithi sastra' meaning `the one which advices'. > > > Thus sastra means `authentic ancient advice'. The 6 sub-branches > > > of astrology are Jataka (horoscopy), Gola (spherical astronomy), > > Nimitta > > > (omens), Prasna (horary astrology), Muhurta (electional astrology) > and > > > Ganita (mathematical part of astrologia). > > > > > > Let us see how these sub-branches or parts get integrated into the > > > main branches or heads. > > > > > > 1) Ganita skanta is composed of Gola (spherical astronomy) and > > > Ganita (calculation) > > > > > > 2) Hora skanta is composed of Horoscopy, Prasna, Muhurta, and some > > > part of Nimitta > > > > > > 3) Samhita skanta is composed of elaborate discussion of Nimitta. > > > It a also deals with the varying fortunes of people (of a nation, > > group > > > or particular geographical location etc ) †" in this context > it > > is > > > also known by the name Medini astrologia or Mundane astrology, > Changes > > > in weather, Growth-diseases- treatment- cure of animals and plants, > > Nature > > > and shapes of meteors-shooting stars etc, and in short all wonderful > > > natural phenomena. Samhita is a `collection' of everything > > > related to astrologia that is not dealt within Ganita and Hora > skanta. > > > > > > Majority of acharyas accept and deals with this classification in > this > > > way itself. The six Angas can be described as follows - > > > > > > 1) Jataka - deals with predictions to be made on the basis of > > > rising sign at the time of birth and the related planetary position > > > > > > 2) Gola - deals with planetary system, their nature, peculiarities > > > and in short spherical astronomy. > > > > > > 3) Nimitta †" deals with temporary omens (Tatkala Lakshana) > > > †" mainly omens obtaining at a particular time, omens > related to > > body > > > language, events and so on. > > > > > > 4) Prasna - forecasting methods based upon the questions raised by > > > a qurrent > > > > > > 5) Muhurta †" selection of auspicious time for success in > > > religious /spiritual, social, secular, material or in short any > > > undertaking. > > > > > > 6) Ganita (astrologia mathematics) - mathematical astronomy or > > > mathematical astrology. `Sidhantas' are astrologia texts that > > > deal with Ganita Skanta of astrologia. > > > > > > Ganita: Astrologia Mathematics > > > > > > As per Prasna Marga, the efficient astrologer should be well versed > in > > > 10 kinds of calculations such as calculation of - Kali Dina (Kali > era > > > date calculations) , mean position of planets, true position of > > planets, > > > solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary fights (Graha Yudha), > Lunar > > > conjunctions (samagama), combustion (Maudhya), Heliacal risings and > > > setting of various planets. Thus we can infer the difference of > > approach > > > between the modern mathematics and astrologia mathematics (i.e. > Ganita > > > skanta) †" there are numerous ideas present in astrologia > > mathematics > > > that are not present or used, or considered unscientific by modern > > > astronomy. In modern astronomy there is no retrogression, > combustions > > > etc but in the astrologia mathematical context the calculation of > the > > > same is unavoidable since it is much useful and required for the > > > astrology. There are numerous texts available which deal with one or > > the > > > other section of Ganita branch. To name a few - Surya Siddhanta > > > ,Siddhanta Siromany, Siddhanta Tatva Vivekam, Graha Laghavam, > > > Leelavathi, Pancha Sidhantika, Aryabhatiya are all examples of > Ganita > > > texts. > > > > > > Ganita is other wise known as Tantra skanta (note the use of word > > tantra > > > here). It also shows where all this concepts may have been > originated. > > > Other wise too astrology is generally known as Agamic or Agama > sastra > > > like Temple tantra (worship), Vastu Tantra (architecture) and alike. > > > Tantra means `technique' with a practical usefulness. It is this > > > that makes Ganita, Astrology, Vastu, Temple worship etc all Tantra. > It > > > is a system to be learned and applied (used, practiced), not just > > > something for theoretical discussion without any practical > usefulness. > > > It is the practical usefulness that makes every tantra (technique) > > > valuable and respectable. The same is true with this ancient branch > of > > > Tantric knowledge called astrologia as well. > > > > > > Coming back to our subject of discussion, i.e. Ganita, an astrologer > > is > > > expected to be thoroughly conversant with the methods of calculating > > > eclipses, planetary longitudes, heliacal rising and setting of > planets > > > and all other phenomena specified by astrological texts. Kali Dina > is > > > the number of days passed from the beginning of the Kali Yuga to the > > > epoch in question. The mean position of planets is the position > which > > it > > > would have attained at a uniform rate of motion and the corrections > to > > > be applied in respect of the eccentricity of the orbit are not > > > considered. The mean longitude is reckoned on the assumption that > the > > > orbits of planets are concentric circles. Because of the orbits are > > > elliptical and not circular further equations or corrections called > > > beeja corrections are later on applied to the mean position to get > the > > > true longitude. Two planets are said to be in fight or Graha Yuddha > > when > > > they are in conjunction and the distance between them is less than > one > > > degree. All planets except sun and moon (also Rahu and Ketu) can > enter > > > into war. The conjuring planet is the one with less longitude. The > > > heliacal rising and setting (astodaya; asta and udaya; setting and > > > rising) occur when they are at certain distance from Sun. Chandra > > > samagama (conjunction with Moon) and eclipses involve more elaborate > > > calculations. > > > > > > So from what we discussed we can already infer that the difference > > > between astronomical phenomenon in modern context and astrologia > > > mathematics discussed in Sidhantas are different in calculations and > > > approach. In reality there do not exists any eclipses, combustion, > > > retrogression, or many other phenomena discussed in astrologia > texts. > > > Actually astrologia mathematical texts approach this subject from a > > > different angle †" the deal with what we see, observe, > > experience as > > > seen from earth. Know and understand this point clearly. > > > > > > Some words on Charlatans > > > > > > Astrologia mathematics (Ganita skanta and Siddhantic texts) may > speak > > > about the 8 directions, rising and setting of sun, the horizon, > > > ecliptic, combustion of planets, retrograde and numerous other > things > > > that actually does not `exist' but we only `feel' as we > > > observe it from earth. Even though the ancient sages knew well that > > Sun > > > was the center of solar system, there calculations were well > grounded > > > and was given `as observed from earth' †" erroneously > terming > > > it as `geo centric' is nothing but ignorance. Of course even the > > > modern astronomers refer to and use the terms such as ecliptic, > > horizon > > > etc since they know and value the benefit of this approach. It is > only > > > those who lack the basic understanding and context only argue that > > since > > > - `directions does not exist', `sun does not rise and > > > set', `combustion is not possible', `planets does not > > > fight', `planets do not go backwards' etc and that due to > > > all this the whole astrologia mathematics and understanding is bogus > > and > > > useless. > > > > > > So what to say about some people (like AKK or Sanat) assuming > > scientific > > > temper and attacking astrology saying that it is unscientific even > > > without knowing even the basic concepts properly still claiming that > I > > > was into astrology for 35 yrs or 50 yrs etc and so on. These > corrupted > > > minds use what little they know as an opportunity to bring down > Hindu > > > pride and knowledge and prepare a ground for proselyte and > converting > > > Hindus by injecting inferiority complex by giving color of science > or > > > religion to their baseless and erroneous approach and arguments. > They > > > act as if they are protector of religion or gods as if they stand > for > > > truth †" while in truth they are into their missionary > mission > > of > > > destruction of ancient Indian knowledge branches such as astrologia. > > In > > > their mind they accept western thoughts or ideology. Or even goes to > > the > > > extent of mimicking that they stand for the Vedas and argue that `it > > > is not in Vedas and so cannot be accepted' etc. Neither they have > > > any regard for Veda nor for astrologia. They know well that Vedas > are > > > not meant for astrological purpose, but they are not bothered, > because > > > saving neither Veda nor astrologia is their intention †" but > > only > > > distorting even the little ancient wisdom available to us. With this > > > purpose they start useless endless discussions and put in whatever > > they > > > feels fit in for their secret agendas into one single mould. So they > > may > > > equate Purusha with kalapurusha, Aswa with Aswati Nakshatra, > Nakshatra > > > with star, Rasi with constellation and may use any similar words > > usually > > > `out of context'. The reality is that they are yet to understand > > > the real meanings and context of those words or its application in > > > Sanskrit or in Astrologia, since they lack even the proper tradition > > > based education of this great subject astrologia (Jyotisastra) . > > > > > > This author or no astrologer is against any particular religions, > > > regions, people, technology, science etc. Every knowledge should be > > used > > > for " loka kalyana, sarva jana sukhaya , hitaya " (For the well > > > being of the people, for the happiness of everyone, for the benefit > of > > > everyone). So an astrologer can use all modern facilities and > > knowledge > > > branches and even astronomical calculations which are available with > > > advancement in technology and use it for astrological purpose - even > > > though attackers engage us into fight to answer why we are using it. > > > They are using the same modern knowledge read from here and there to > > > destruct Hindu dharmic knowledge branches, while wearing a > protective > > > mask of acting as if they are trying to protect Hindu dharma. > > > > > > Sidhantas: how realistic are they? > > > > > > The history of Hindu astronomy makes reference to 18 Sidhantas viz > > > -Surya, Pitamaha (Brahma ), Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, > Kasyapa, > > > Narada, Garga, Marichi, Manu, Angiras, Lomasa (Romaka?), Paulisa, > > > Yavana, Chyavana, Brigu and Saunaka. This is the opinion of many > > > acharyas including Mihira. The list may slightly with some sages > > > including the some names and omitting some other name. Out of these > 18 > > > acharyas, and the Siddhantic texts their unique astrologia > traditions > > > provide, it seems that there were only 5 names to have merited the > > > admiration of Varahamihira or it is also possible that all other > > > Sidhantas got lost by the time of Varaha Mihira. > > > > > > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika (which is a summary of 5 > > > Sidhantas) clearly says Siddhanta made by Paulisa (Paulisa > Siddhanta) > > is > > > accurate, near to it stands the Siddhanta of Romaka (Romaka > > Siddhanta), > > > but more accurate is the Surya (Surya Siddhanta), and Paitamaha > > (Brahma; > > > Paitamaha Siddhanta) and Vasishta (Vasishta Siddhanta) are not > > accurate > > > (means become obsolete by the time of Varahamihira itself). > > > > > > Here I take opportunity to answer 2 sections of people. One, those > > like > > > Vinay Jha, who is spreading word that the Saura Paksha is accurate > and > > > we should use it `without any change'. The truth is - it is > > > always good to test its efficiency like what Varahamihira did. > > > Varahamihira himself tells us that in the absence of proper > updating, > > in > > > the changing times many Sidhantas became obsolete. The inherent > advice > > > to us is that †" we should test the efficiency and accuracy > of > > the > > > Siddhanta or astrologia mathematical system we use. > > > > > > Second, to dharma Pravarthaka' s (Hindu religious propagators) , who > > in > > > the name of protecting Hindu dharma, is actually abusing acharyas. > > They > > > usually take only what they want from these quotations, and is > > spreading > > > lies that everything we got is from Greek,Chaldean, Babylon or even > > > European places! Where as they either forget or is close eyed > towards > > > the fact that Varahamihira also mentioned about Vasishta and Brhama > > > Sidhantas and said that they are not working properly now. Does it > not > > > show its antiquity? Is it not clear that `since with time Sidhantas > > > become obsolete and demands revision' that `Brahma Siddhanta and > > > Vasishta Siddhanta are much older than the other available > siddhantas > > of > > > that time'? Other wise what is the meaning of Varahamihira saying > > > that those calculations are not at par with present day planetary > > > phenomenon since no further improvements has been made by successive > > > generation of scholars? > > > > > > They don't have any proof to support their claims from respective > > > cultures. Here in this list of 5 Sidhantas it clearly and separately > > > mentions Yavana and Surya Sidhantas, which clearly indicate that > they > > > does not borrow anything from each other. But still these people > > > enthusiastically claim that Indian astrological knowledge came from > > > other cultures such as Greek or Rome! This reveals their real aim, > and > > > also that that these people are only interested in distorting facts > > and > > > twisting everything. > > > > > > Thus the above statements also prove the Saura paksha orthodoxy > claims > > > such as that of Vinay Jha also don't hold water since here as it is > > > clear that Varahamihira is speaking about physical phenomenon than > > > treating the astrologia calculation as some divine phenomenon. > > Astrology > > > was not a religion for him but a subject of practical usefulness. If > > > astrology is something that has got existence only on spiritual and > > > divine plane alone, then what is the need for so many Sidhantas from > > > different school of thoughts (Rishi Kulas)? (Rishi kulas: Rishi > Kulas > > > ashrams or centre of learning where each Rishi with the Kula > > originators > > > designation was the head of it). Why Varahamihira and many later > > > scholars tried to improve it? Why they even said that only a few > > > Sidhantas are available now and that even out of the few available > > only > > > some is working and that out of the whole Surya Siddhanta is > superior > > to > > > other Sidhantas? Is it not true that - all these point out that all > > > Sidhantas need updating (Sidhantas should be updated on time) by > > > individuals with dedicated time and scholarly pursuits? > > > > > > Let us come back to Prasna Marga. Prasna Marga is a condensed > > > compilation of 100s of texts. It made obsolete many ancient texts > > > because of its own popularity. Many books mentioned in it is not > > > available now. Prashnamarga belongs to 14th century AD while Pancha > > > Siddhantika of Varaha Mihira belongs to 6th century AD). Prasna > Marga > > > gives a different opinion than Varahamihira (may be due to the > > > mathematical contribution of Kerala and in text it was discussing > > > various popular opinions prevalent in Kerala than its author's > > > opinions). It says Brahma Siddhanta is accurate, Romaka is more > > accurate > > > but Surya Siddhanta is most accurate the last two (Vasishta and > > Paulisa) > > > are archaic in nature. Also not to mention the Arya bhata, Bhaskara, > > > Brahma Gupta and the like; the mathematical astronomers and their > > > Siddhantic texts, which too contributed for Ganita skanta > (astrologia > > > mathematics) . I think and assume that, this all point to the very > > fact > > > that, all these Sidhantas are discussing about seeing actual > position > > > (physical position) of planets †" i.e. Suryadi Navagrahas (9 > > > planets). It is more clear when they discuss about eclipses (with > some > > > non mathematical imaginary position I think it is not calculable as > it > > > is a visible reality). The Eclipse behavior, visibility, sparsha > > > (touching, approaching) and moksha (leaving, separating) periods and > > > its duration, techniques to calculate it, time of eclipse happening > > etc > > > †" all these doesn't make sense if the astrological > Sidhantas > > > like Surya Siddhanta is not speaking about real physical planets. So > > all > > > these point to the fact that, they are all talking about real > > planetary > > > positions †" the Drik Siddhanta Sputa. If not (would Vinay > Jha > > is > > > true) even the so called beeja corrections are not required. This is > > not > > > the case, all the above points together clearly shows that Vinay's > > > arguments and approach (of considering Surya Siddhanta based > planetary > > > positions only as spiritual unrelated to reality than physical > > reality) > > > are totally wrong. > > > > > > The later day contribution of Aryabhata's followers is known as > > > Parahita (means acceptable or liked by others - or it also means > that > > it > > > is acceptable to all people from far places too). It was widely used > > in > > > computing ephemeris and birth charts and even calculating eclipses > and > > > all other astrological purposes. Again during later days, it is > again > > > found that even those calculations are differing from actual > positions > > > and Shri Parameshwara acharya (parameswaran nampoothiri) in 14th > > century > > > (much before modern reminiscence in Europe) made some corrections > > after > > > 55yrs research and hard work of astronomical observations, refined > > > further all those calculations. The system he introduced came to be > > > known as " Drik Ganita " (actual Planetary positions `as > > > observed'). He also published one text called Grahana mandanam which > > > explains the calculation method to arrive at correct planetary > > position > > > of sun and moon at eclipses and its timing etc. His work is > otherwise > > > also knows Drik Siddhanta and its mathematical calculation is known > as > > > Drik Ganita (termed `thiru ganita' in south in general). > > > > > > He explicitly tells us that he discussed only deviations happened in > > > previous Sidhantas and knowledge of previous Sidhantas is a must and > > > necessary. He requested all scholars to use this as an auxiliary > only > > > to those Sidhantas (such as Parahita system). H says - > > > > > > Viknjaya cha laghu thantram > > > > > > drishtwa Golasya samstitheem Bahusa > > > > > > ganakanam santhosha pradam > > > > > > maya grahana mandanam kriyathe > > > > > > (4th sloka in first chapter --grahana mandanam) > > > > > > So I think we should use the actual positions of planets and hence > > using > > > modern nautical almanacs is also recommended for astrologers as I > > > don't think in future anyone will devote their time for this kind of > > > calculations, if it is already available with the help of modern > > tools. > > > The only thing we should use and stick to is the predictive > principles > > > laid down by ancient sages. > > > > > > [i am asking forgiveness for mistakes committed by me in this > article > > > †" if any. This is a wide subject is beyond my capacity and > > caliber. > > > But still I tried an investigation from my side and invites > scholarly > > > opinion of other learned scholars and students. I invite all > > astrologers > > > who has different opinions than me in group and I hope they may join > > and > > > contribute for this discussions] > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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