Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Sushma ji, Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about how one can improve his life for his next life... " to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. This will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of ones volition is what I am talking about. There is really not too much to tell. People just try to complicate things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself with action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to better our LONG-TERM future. The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, tantra mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working towards the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful meditation does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about the goal and result... RR , , " bhagvatjee " <bhagvatjee wrote: > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect some > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks for > clearing my thoughts > With bets wishes > Sushma > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > <rohini_ranjan@> wrote: > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you have > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in general in > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or towards > the > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will not > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other floating > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement creates > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the next > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform or > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) and > > the climb continues. > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If not, > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > RR > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Sir, The choice of free will that comes out of free choice if considered as objectives and the endeavours to fulfil the objective are initiated in the direction ,a path way is being laid for improvement of life in next life. what matters is still this realisation and and the feel the need to imrove continue to be issue.if we need to take the aid of Astrology and navigate through the 1.5 and 9 and a meaningful link with4,8th and 12th bhavas could be made possible indication could be chiesled.But then how many would be interested to think of these abstract issues and ready to grope of the present and future in this direction. A reconciliation approach very common to all human beings desists people to find a meaningful path.Willingness to overcome the odds and over come the subjective issues of sorrow and happiness are normally not thought over.In the middle of several uncertainities and in the ocean several events and happenings the lack of direction and to adopt a course that is easy is only contended.we can not ignore the concept of evolution of soul and the efforts that are need to be made.If this intention /willingness is there,always there is a way to attain.That needs a free choice that is openness and free will that is to weigh good and bad,ultimate ones become the ideals.I have no hesitation to think that from life to life this reformation and transformation occurs gradually knowingly and even some times abruptly. vrkrishnan --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan Re: importance of birthplace in chart Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:24 PM Sushma ji, Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about how one can improve his life for his next life... " to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. This will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of ones volition is what I am talking about. There is really not too much to tell. People just try to complicate things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself with action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to better our LONG-TERM future. The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, tantra mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working towards the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful meditation does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about the goal and result... RR ,, " bhagvatjee " <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect some > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks for > clearing my thoughts > With bets wishes > Sushma > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > <rohini_ranjan@ > wrote: > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you have > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in general in > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or towards > the > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will not > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other floating > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement creates > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the next > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform or > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) and > > the climb continues. > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If not, > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > RR > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Krishnan ji, If I may stick in my duanni (2 annas, probably not used as currency in India anymore so some of the younger folks may wonder what I am talking about ;-) -- I have no problem with accepting that both destiny and freedom of choice are part of the human matrix, components of our being. As our self progresses and learns gradually our destiny grows weaker after many lifetimes due to discharge of karma. As the karmic mortgage gets cleared in advanced states freedom of choice becomes fully operative. That is available only to Saints like Yogananda who clearly indicated that he could overcome astrological forces. For the rest of us, we are hanging on the line that rises from the ground and goes all the way to where mahatmas and saints dwell. Hence this debate goes on and on. There are some who get only one choice -- take it or leave it. For them astrology does not offer much value but for many others the scenario generally is that there are several or at least few choices and the decision point comes down to: Should I follow option A, B, or C or D, E ... etc. Those are the moments of dwividha where astrology really comes in handy as it takes into accout the following and many other factors and allows us to come to a decision without going to pieces and freezing with indecision: a) Is there a promise in the chart (kind of moot at that point since we already have a few options that are worthy of note and equal but with different benefit and loss packages, different strengths and weaknesses. b) Sometimes direction of a move helps if the horoscope can be studied to see where betterment lies c) The upcoming dashas, bhuktis etc may indicate a better match with one of the options. d) Some of the options may show a potential for sudden loss of job and if such is indicated in the chart also as a possibility, I would avoid some of those potentially vulnerable options and go with a safer or more stable one. etc etc. Obviously this will require a lot of study and preparation on the part of the astrologer, but that is a given, isn't it in such considerations where we battle with destiny vs free-will. It is not a territory for novices and beginners in astrology to worry about ... RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Sir, > The choice of free will that comes out of free choice if considered as objectives and the endeavours to fulfil the objective are initiated in the direction ,a path way is being laid for improvement of life in next life. > what matters is still this realisation and and the feel the need to imrove continue to be issue.if we need to take the aid of Astrology and navigate through the 1.5 and 9 and a meaningful link with4,8th and 12th bhavas could be made possible indication could be chiesled.But then how many would be interested to think of these abstract issues and ready to grope of the present and future in this direction. > A reconciliation approach very common to all human beings desists people to find a meaningful path.Willingness to overcome the odds and over come the subjective issues of sorrow and happiness are normally not thought over.In the middle of several uncertainities and in the ocean several events and happenings the lack of direction and to adopt a course that is easy is only contended.we can not ignore the concept of evolution of soul and the efforts that are need to be made.If this intention /willingness is there,always there is a way to attain.That needs a free choice that is openness and free will that is to weigh good and bad,ultimate ones become the ideals.I have no hesitation to think that from life to life this reformation and transformation occurs gradually knowingly and even some times abruptly. > vrkrishnan > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:24 PM Sushma ji, > > Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about how > one can improve his life for his next life... " > > to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. This > will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of ones > volition is what I am talking about. > > There is really not too much to tell. People just try to complicate > things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself with > action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, > however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to better > our LONG-TERM future. > > The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, tantra > mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and > continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working towards > the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful meditation > does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about the > goal and result... > > RR > > ,, " bhagvatjee " > <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect > some > > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks for > > clearing my thoughts > > With bets wishes > > Sushma > > > > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > > <rohini_ranjan@ > wrote: > > > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you > have > > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in general > in > > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or towards > > the > > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will not > > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other > floating > > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement > creates > > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the next > > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform or > > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) > and > > > the climb continues. > > > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If > not, > > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Sir, Application of Astrology unfortunately is contemplated and only used in the material context concerning with promotion of indiviadual agenda. Incase if we have to overcome the may be we need to give credence to the destiny and less bother with gains and losses.In the absence proper contentment of what one is likely to get,he can not aim the freewill provided by in Astrological Charts.For a moment I may be permitted to say that Iam the architect of my own fortune.But then use and abuse destiny theory only to indicate our inabilities and weaknesses is neither proper nor desirable.We are only enticing ourselves with self in the context of material gains May by if AStrology is of some boost to human endeavours it is in the context to over come the imposed feelings of destiny and know our inabilities and take aid of the planets and work. --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan Re: importance of birthplace in chart Friday, July 18, 2008, 6:19 PM Krishnan ji, If I may stick in my duanni (2 annas, probably not used as currency in India anymore so some of the younger folks may wonder what I am talking about ;-) -- I have no problem with accepting that both destiny and freedom of choice are part of the human matrix, components of our being. As our self progresses and learns gradually our destiny grows weaker after many lifetimes due to discharge of karma. As the karmic mortgage gets cleared in advanced states freedom of choice becomes fully operative. That is available only to Saints like Yogananda who clearly indicated that he could overcome astrological forces. For the rest of us, we are hanging on the line that rises from the ground and goes all the way to where mahatmas and saints dwell. Hence this debate goes on and on. There are some who get only one choice -- take it or leave it. For them astrology does not offer much value but for many others the scenario generally is that there are several or at least few choices and the decision point comes down to: Should I follow option A, B, or C or D, E ... etc. Those are the moments of dwividha where astrology really comes in handy as it takes into accout the following and many other factors and allows us to come to a decision without going to pieces and freezing with indecision: a) Is there a promise in the chart (kind of moot at that point since we already have a few options that are worthy of note and equal but with different benefit and loss packages, different strengths and weaknesses. b) Sometimes direction of a move helps if the horoscope can be studied to see where betterment lies c) The upcoming dashas, bhuktis etc may indicate a better match with one of the options. d) Some of the options may show a potential for sudden loss of job and if such is indicated in the chart also as a possibility, I would avoid some of those potentially vulnerable options and go with a safer or more stable one. etc etc. Obviously this will require a lot of study and preparation on the part of the astrologer, but that is a given, isn't it in such considerations where we battle with destiny vs free-will. It is not a territory for novices and beginners in astrology to worry about ... RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99@. ..> wrote: > > Sir, > The choice of free will that comes out of free choice if considered as objectives and the endeavours to fulfil the objective are initiated in the direction ,a path way is being laid for improvement of life in next life. > what matters is still this realisation and and the feel the need to imrove continue to be issue.if we need to take the aid of Astrology and navigate through the 1.5 and 9 and a meaningful link with4,8th and 12th bhavas could be made possible indication could be chiesled.But then how many would be interested to think of these abstract issues and ready to grope of the present and future in this direction. > A reconciliation approach very common to all human beings desists people to find a meaningful path.Willingness to overcome the odds and over come the subjective issues of sorrow and happiness are normally not thought over.In the middle of several uncertainities and in the ocean several events and happenings the lack of direction and to adopt a course that is easy is only contended.we can not ignore the concept of evolution of soul and the efforts that are need to be made.If this intention /willingness is there,always there is a way to attain.That needs a free choice that is openness and free will that is to weigh good and bad,ultimate ones become the ideals.I have no hesitation to think that from life to life this reformation and transformation occurs gradually knowingly and even some times abruptly. > vrkrishnan > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:24 PM Sushma ji, > > Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about how > one can improve his life for his next life... " > > to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. This > will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of ones > volition is what I am talking about. > > There is really not too much to tell. People just try to complicate > things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself with > action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, > however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to better > our LONG-TERM future. > > The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, tantra > mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and > continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working towards > the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful meditation > does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about the > goal and result... > > RR > > ,, " bhagvatjee " > <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect > some > > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks for > > clearing my thoughts > > With bets wishes > > Sushma > > > > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > > <rohini_ranjan@ > wrote: > > > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you > have > > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in general > in > > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or towards > > the > > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will not > > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other > floating > > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement > creates > > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the next > > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform or > > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) > and > > > the climb continues. > > > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If > not, > > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 If I understand what you are trying to say, Krishnanji, you believe in there being free will and not everything that happens in the human experience is a mere unfolding of destiny. Correct? RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Sir, > Application of Astrology unfortunately is contemplated and only used in the material context concerning with promotion of indiviadual agenda. > Incase if we have to overcome the may be we need to give credence to the destiny and less bother with gains and losses.In the absence proper contentment of what one is likely to get,he can not aim the freewill provided by in Astrological Charts.For a moment I may be permitted to say that Iam the architect of my own fortune.But then use and abuse destiny theory only to indicate our inabilities and weaknesses is neither proper nor desirable.We are only enticing ourselves with self in the context of material gains > > May by if AStrology is of some boost to human endeavours it is in the context to over come the imposed feelings of destiny and know our inabilities and take aid of the planets and work. > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 6:19 PM Krishnan ji, > > If I may stick in my duanni (2 annas, probably not used as currency > in India anymore so some of the younger folks may wonder what I am > talking about ;-) -- > > I have no problem with accepting that both destiny and freedom of > choice are part of the human matrix, components of our being. As our > self progresses and learns gradually our destiny grows weaker after > many lifetimes due to discharge of karma. As the karmic mortgage gets > cleared in advanced states freedom of choice becomes fully operative. > That is available only to Saints like Yogananda who clearly indicated > that he could overcome astrological forces. For the rest of us, we > are hanging on the line that rises from the ground and goes all the > way to where mahatmas and saints dwell. Hence this debate goes on and > on. > > There are some who get only one choice -- take it or leave it. For > them astrology does not offer much value but for many others the > scenario generally is that there are several or at least few choices > and the decision point comes down to: Should I follow option A, B, or > C or D, E ... etc. > > Those are the moments of dwividha where astrology really comes in > handy as it takes into accout the following and many other factors > and allows us to come to a decision without going to pieces and > freezing with indecision: > > a) Is there a promise in the chart (kind of moot at that point since > we already have a few options that are worthy of note and equal but > with different benefit and loss packages, different strengths and > weaknesses. > > b) Sometimes direction of a move helps if the horoscope can be > studied to see where betterment lies > > c) The upcoming dashas, bhuktis etc may indicate a better match with > one of the options. > > d) Some of the options may show a potential for sudden loss of job > and if such is indicated in the chart also as a possibility, I would > avoid some of those potentially vulnerable options and go with a > safer or more stable one. > > etc etc. Obviously this will require a lot of study and preparation > on the part of the astrologer, but that is a given, isn't it in such > considerations where we battle with destiny vs free-will. It is not a > territory for novices and beginners in astrology to worry about ... > > RR > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@ ..> wrote: > > > > Sir, > > The choice of free will that comes out of free choice if considered > as objectives and the endeavours to fulfil the objective are > initiated in the direction ,a path way is being laid for improvement > of life in next life. > > what matters is still this realisation and and the feel the need to > imrove continue to be issue.if we need to take the aid of Astrology > and navigate through the 1.5 and 9 and a meaningful link with4,8th > and 12th bhavas could be made possible indication could be > chiesled.But then how many would be interested to think of these > abstract issues and ready to grope of the present and future in this > direction. > > A reconciliation approach very common to all human beings desists > people to find a meaningful path.Willingness to overcome the odds and > over come the subjective issues of sorrow and happiness are normally > not thought over.In the middle of several uncertainities and in the > ocean several events and happenings the lack of direction and to > adopt a course that is easy is only contended.we can not ignore the > concept of evolution of soul and the efforts that are need to be > made.If this intention /willingness is there,always there is a way to > attain.That needs a free choice that is openness and free will that > is to weigh good and bad,ultimate ones become the ideals.I have no > hesitation to think that from life to life this reformation and > transformation occurs gradually knowingly and even some times > abruptly. > > vrkrishnan > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:24 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sushma ji, > > > > Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about how > > one can improve his life for his next life... " > > > > to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. This > > will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of ones > > volition is what I am talking about. > > > > There is really not too much to tell. People just try to complicate > > things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself > with > > action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, > > however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to > better > > our LONG-TERM future. > > > > The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, tantra > > mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and > > continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working towards > > the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful > meditation > > does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about the > > goal and result... > > > > RR > > > > ,, " bhagvatjee " > > <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect > > some > > > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > > > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks > for > > > clearing my thoughts > > > With bets wishes > > > Sushma > > > > > > > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > > > <rohini_ranjan@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you > > have > > > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in > general > > in > > > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or > towards > > > the > > > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will > not > > > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other > > floating > > > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement > > creates > > > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the > next > > > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform > or > > > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) > > and > > > > the climb continues. > > > > > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If > > not, > > > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dear Shri Rohini da, Let me more lucid by putting forth one of my personal experience when I was young naive to Astrology but keen in those days with chiero's palmistry. Days at that pont of time were not really struggling but then at cross roads as I intend to settle down as my family background was not really bright. Then an elderly professional Astroger whom I met by appointement in a Hotel,was ruthelessly staright and told this not time as I was less than say25 years to rue, as you will have career and bright prospects from 35 years. :also said I move from place to place and from table to table :also some astrologers(?) also put doubt that Iam cursed by Kala Sarpa yoga Any way with some success and recognition in life always chasing me from my teens ny average talents really gave me the required boost in life. Then I always fought through out my life in conditions where there is none to sympathise and favour and bent spirtually to improve my destiny and take freewill to with me.I expermented with this idea(free will).might b i failed but the finally succeeded only and Almighty truely helped in all my advents. I took many chances and waited for recognition and success to come.Always freewill helped in my life but accepted the Destiny but not as a riders for all endeavours and trials.Even now in matters relating to iam not placed that happily but Iam contended as my efforts gave success and boosted my confidence.I grew day by day with confidence getting improved. After all An All India Service Officer has not much to boast off regards vrkrishnan P.S:The contradictions between two opposing poles(?) are not so really.Destiny and free will are inter related through human struggle to enjoy and with to oppose planetary instincts. --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan Re: importance of birthplace in chart Saturday, July 19, 2008, 1:30 PM If I understand what you are trying to say, Krishnanji, you believe in there being free will and not everything that happens in the human experience is a mere unfolding of destiny. Correct? RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99@. ..> wrote: > > Sir, > Application of Astrology unfortunately is contemplated and only used in the material context concerning with promotion of indiviadual agenda. > Incase if we have to overcome the may be we need to give credence to the destiny and less bother with gains and losses.In the absence proper contentment of what one is likely to get,he can not aim the freewill provided by in Astrological Charts.For a moment I may be permitted to say that Iam the architect of my own fortune.But then use and abuse destiny theory only to indicate our inabilities and weaknesses is neither proper nor desirable.We are only enticing ourselves with self in the context of material gains > > May by if AStrology is of some boost to human endeavours it is in the context to over come the imposed feelings of destiny and know our inabilities and take aid of the planets and work. > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 6:19 PM Krishnan ji, > > If I may stick in my duanni (2 annas, probably not used as currency > in India anymore so some of the younger folks may wonder what I am > talking about ;-) -- > > I have no problem with accepting that both destiny and freedom of > choice are part of the human matrix, components of our being. As our > self progresses and learns gradually our destiny grows weaker after > many lifetimes due to discharge of karma. As the karmic mortgage gets > cleared in advanced states freedom of choice becomes fully operative. > That is available only to Saints like Yogananda who clearly indicated > that he could overcome astrological forces. For the rest of us, we > are hanging on the line that rises from the ground and goes all the > way to where mahatmas and saints dwell. Hence this debate goes on and > on. > > There are some who get only one choice -- take it or leave it. For > them astrology does not offer much value but for many others the > scenario generally is that there are several or at least few choices > and the decision point comes down to: Should I follow option A, B, or > C or D, E ... etc. > > Those are the moments of dwividha where astrology really comes in > handy as it takes into accout the following and many other factors > and allows us to come to a decision without going to pieces and > freezing with indecision: > > a) Is there a promise in the chart (kind of moot at that point since > we already have a few options that are worthy of note and equal but > with different benefit and loss packages, different strengths and > weaknesses. > > b) Sometimes direction of a move helps if the horoscope can be > studied to see where betterment lies > > c) The upcoming dashas, bhuktis etc may indicate a better match with > one of the options. > > d) Some of the options may show a potential for sudden loss of job > and if such is indicated in the chart also as a possibility, I would > avoid some of those potentially vulnerable options and go with a > safer or more stable one. > > etc etc. Obviously this will require a lot of study and preparation > on the part of the astrologer, but that is a given, isn't it in such > considerations where we battle with destiny vs free-will. It is not a > territory for novices and beginners in astrology to worry about ... > > RR > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@ ..> wrote: > > > > Sir, > > The choice of free will that comes out of free choice if considered > as objectives and the endeavours to fulfil the objective are > initiated in the direction ,a path way is being laid for improvement > of life in next life. > > what matters is still this realisation and and the feel the need to > imrove continue to be issue.if we need to take the aid of Astrology > and navigate through the 1.5 and 9 and a meaningful link with4,8th > and 12th bhavas could be made possible indication could be > chiesled.But then how many would be interested to think of these > abstract issues and ready to grope of the present and future in this > direction. > > A reconciliation approach very common to all human beings desists > people to find a meaningful path.Willingness to overcome the odds and > over come the subjective issues of sorrow and happiness are normally > not thought over.In the middle of several uncertainities and in the > ocean several events and happenings the lack of direction and to > adopt a course that is easy is only contended.we can not ignore the > concept of evolution of soul and the efforts that are need to be > made.If this intention /willingness is there,always there is a way to > attain.That needs a free choice that is openness and free will that > is to weigh good and bad,ultimate ones become the ideals.I have no > hesitation to think that from life to life this reformation and > transformation occurs gradually knowingly and even some times > abruptly. > > vrkrishnan > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:24 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sushma ji, > > > > Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about how > > one can improve his life for his next life... " > > > > to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. This > > will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of ones > > volition is what I am talking about. > > > > There is really not too much to tell. People just try to complicate > > things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself > with > > action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, > > however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to > better > > our LONG-TERM future. > > > > The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, tantra > > mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and > > continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working towards > > the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful > meditation > > does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about the > > goal and result... > > > > RR > > > > ,, " bhagvatjee " > > <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect > > some > > > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > > > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks > for > > > clearing my thoughts > > > With bets wishes > > > Sushma > > > > > > > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > > > <rohini_ranjan@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you > > have > > > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in > general > > in > > > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or > towards > > > the > > > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will > not > > > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other > > floating > > > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement > > creates > > > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the > next > > > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform > or > > > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) > > and > > > > the climb continues. > > > > > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If > > not, > > > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Krishnanji, Thanks for sharing. I realize that some individuals may be wondering what the utility is of these side-bar conversations that we are having but I think that without these (for those who are interested in expanding their minds) meta and para-discussions a full understanding of astrology (or any divinatory technique) remains too technical and does not add the necessary additional dimension to our saadhanaas which is a key component in our practice of astrology. By that I do not mean sitting crosslegged and crosseyed and chanting like a parrot, etc. The saadhna adds soul to astrology and elevates it from a technical tool box to a craft and higher. I agree with you that the human experience is a mixture of destiny and free-will. These are the implements with which the human self that has carnated, taken birth is shaped and sculpted, and it goes on and on through lifetimes. Without the two growth is not possible. However, one of the purposes of human lifetime is in realizing how much and when destiny is on our side so that with additional free will the vehicle of life can move ahead not just for materialistic growth but comprehensive growth! Also one would learn when to pull back and let things happen (like using the cruise control autopilot in a car as opposed to fighting with the accelerator and brake, which are also available for other times to take manual control of the car! One mistake that many make and then get frustrated is in overestimating either destiny or free-will. They are both available to most but in varying degree over a lifetime. Neither should be overplayed (as by those who claim that destiny is supreme or free- will is. Neither is!) I think I have written what I wanted to on this topic and shall stop now from paying attention to this thread. Arsa longa vita brevis ;-) RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Dear Shri Rohini da, > Let me more lucid by putting forth one of my personal experience when I was young naive to Astrology but keen in those days with chiero's palmistry. > Days at that pont of time were not really struggling but then at cross roads as I intend to settle down as my family background was not really bright. > Then an elderly professional Astroger whom I met by appointement in a Hotel,was ruthelessly staright and told this not time as I was less than say25 years to rue, as you will have career and bright prospects from 35 years. > :also said I move from place to place and from table to table > :also some astrologers(?) also put doubt that Iam cursed by Kala Sarpa yoga > > Any way with some success and recognition in life always chasing me from my teens ny average talents really gave me the required boost in life. > Then I always fought through out my life in conditions where there is none to sympathise and favour and bent spirtually to improve my destiny and take freewill to with me.I expermented with this idea (free will).might b i failed but the finally succeeded only and Almighty truely helped in all my advents. > I took many chances and waited for recognition and success to come.Always freewill helped in my life but accepted the Destiny but not as a riders for all endeavours and trials.Even now in matters relating to iam not placed that happily but Iam contended as my efforts gave success and boosted my confidence.I grew day by day with confidence getting improved. > After all An All India Service Officer has not much to boast off > regards > vrkrishnan > P.S:The contradictions between two opposing poles(?) are not so really.Destiny and free will are inter related through human struggle to enjoy and with to oppose planetary instincts. > > --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Saturday, July 19, 2008, 1:30 PM If I understand what you are trying to say, Krishnanji, you believe > in there being free will and not everything that happens in the human > experience is a mere unfolding of destiny. Correct? > > RR > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@ ..> wrote: > > > > Sir, > > Application of Astrology unfortunately is contemplated and only > used in the material context concerning with promotion of > indiviadual agenda. > > Incase if we have to overcome the may be we need to give credence > to the destiny and less bother with gains and losses.In the absence > proper contentment of what one is likely to get,he can not aim the > freewill provided by in Astrological Charts.For a moment I may be > permitted to say that Iam the architect of my own fortune.But then > use and abuse destiny theory only to indicate our inabilities and > weaknesses is neither proper nor desirable.We are only enticing > ourselves with self in the context of material gains > > > > May by if AStrology is of some boost to human endeavours it is in > the context to over come the imposed feelings of destiny and know our > inabilities and take aid of the planets and work. > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 6:19 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Krishnan ji, > > > > If I may stick in my duanni (2 annas, probably not used as currency > > in India anymore so some of the younger folks may wonder what I am > > talking about ;-) -- > > > > I have no problem with accepting that both destiny and freedom of > > choice are part of the human matrix, components of our being. As > our > > self progresses and learns gradually our destiny grows weaker after > > many lifetimes due to discharge of karma. As the karmic mortgage > gets > > cleared in advanced states freedom of choice becomes fully > operative. > > That is available only to Saints like Yogananda who clearly > indicated > > that he could overcome astrological forces. For the rest of us, we > > are hanging on the line that rises from the ground and goes all the > > way to where mahatmas and saints dwell. Hence this debate goes on > and > > on. > > > > There are some who get only one choice -- take it or leave it. For > > them astrology does not offer much value but for many others the > > scenario generally is that there are several or at least few > choices > > and the decision point comes down to: Should I follow option A, B, > or > > C or D, E ... etc. > > > > Those are the moments of dwividha where astrology really comes in > > handy as it takes into accout the following and many other factors > > and allows us to come to a decision without going to pieces and > > freezing with indecision: > > > > a) Is there a promise in the chart (kind of moot at that point > since > > we already have a few options that are worthy of note and equal but > > with different benefit and loss packages, different strengths and > > weaknesses. > > > > b) Sometimes direction of a move helps if the horoscope can be > > studied to see where betterment lies > > > > c) The upcoming dashas, bhuktis etc may indicate a better match > with > > one of the options. > > > > d) Some of the options may show a potential for sudden loss of job > > and if such is indicated in the chart also as a possibility, I > would > > avoid some of those potentially vulnerable options and go with a > > safer or more stable one. > > > > etc etc. Obviously this will require a lot of study and preparation > > on the part of the astrologer, but that is a given, isn't it in > such > > considerations where we battle with destiny vs free-will. It is not > a > > territory for novices and beginners in astrology to worry about ... > > > > RR > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Sir, > > > The choice of free will that comes out of free choice if > considered > > as objectives and the endeavours to fulfil the objective are > > initiated in the direction ,a path way is being laid for > improvement > > of life in next life. > > > what matters is still this realisation and and the feel the need > to > > imrove continue to be issue.if we need to take the aid of Astrology > > and navigate through the 1.5 and 9 and a meaningful link with4,8th > > and 12th bhavas could be made possible indication could be > > chiesled.But then how many would be interested to think of these > > abstract issues and ready to grope of the present and future in > this > > direction. > > > A reconciliation approach very common to all human beings desists > > people to find a meaningful path.Willingness to overcome the odds > and > > over come the subjective issues of sorrow and happiness are > normally > > not thought over.In the middle of several uncertainities and in the > > ocean several events and happenings the lack of direction and to > > adopt a course that is easy is only contended.we can not ignore the > > concept of evolution of soul and the efforts that are need to be > > made.If this intention /willingness is there,always there is a way > to > > attain.That needs a free choice that is openness and free will that > > is to weigh good and bad,ultimate ones become the ideals.I have no > > hesitation to think that from life to life this reformation and > > transformation occurs gradually knowingly and even some times > > abruptly. > > > vrkrishnan > > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > > > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > > > > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:24 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sushma ji, > > > > > > Your statement, " ...I have collect some more information about > how > > > one can improve his life for his next life... " > > > > > > to me implies an action made by free-choice showing free-will. > This > > > will to improve and to DO something to make that happen out of > ones > > > volition is what I am talking about. > > > > > > There is really not too much to tell. People just try to > complicate > > > things unnecessarily. All that is needed is to associate oneself > > with > > > action and dissociate from the fruit and its desire. Whatever, > > > however, that becomes possible is the simple recipe of how to > > better > > > our LONG-TERM future. > > > > > > The dissociation will come with pooja, penance, meditation, > tantra > > > mantra but only if appropriate ACTIONS are not stopped and > > > continually engaged in -- without thinking about or working > towards > > > the fruit. It will obviously take time just as successful > > meditation > > > does. BUT we keep returning to the action without caring about > the > > > goal and result... > > > > > > RR > > > > > > ,, " bhagvatjee " > > > <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect > > > some > > > > more information about how one can improve his life for his > next > > > > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks > > for > > > > clearing my thoughts > > > > With bets wishes > > > > Sushma > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > > > > <rohini_ranjan@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you > > > have > > > > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages > etc :-) > > > > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in > > general > > > in > > > > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or > > towards > > > > the > > > > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will > > not > > > > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which > is > > > > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other > > > floating > > > > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement > > > creates > > > > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the > > next > > > > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined > platform > > or > > > > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free > will) > > > and > > > > > the climb continues. > > > > > > > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! > If > > > not, > > > > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear Krishnan Ji In fact I had closed this topic, by saying that I will have to collect more information on this topic, otherwise there is no end of this discussion " . But the last line of your letter again compelled me to continue this topic " This guidance or the intent is of none else than the force of God. " That is what I have been telling that without God's will nothing happens and nothing can happen. Then where is the Free Will? (it is not necessary that that Free Will is only for development, it may be any kind of wish). I wish to become a teacher, but my circumstances push me to become a singer, or a scientist, or something else. I want to serve my parents, but Destiny sends me abroad and I am not there to serve them when they need me most. A girl goes to her in-law's house with the intense desire to serve them, but unfortunately those people behave with her so badly that she forgets everything whatever she thought before marriage. The girl had no bad intention. WHAT IS THIS? While, one goes to abroad even one has not even dreamt about it; one is saved in a plane crash when all others are killed, parents are ready to marry their daughter and she dies in an accident. How these unimaginable events occur? That is why I believe that nothing is our hand. At the same time I believe that all this is written in our charts (Of course only a good reader is required to read it). I am sorry to prolong this thread, but I am supporting your views only. With regards Sushma , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Shri Bhagavat jee, > Progression of life and improving the course through the cycle of births definetely what all intend to achieve and what we have done and how karma reflects for good and bad of the life of the person.Also how actions benifit others.The objective will be clear only when is in thoughts and actions. > Secondly these karmas or intents to do by way of action need no doubt blessings of the Supernatural force.The one who carry out with the pharse of 'Hari Om Tatsat " and ascribes his actions and result to the Almighty creates space for himself some free will. > Destiny that is the chart to progress will also ceratinly elevate him step by step.Sequentially one finds his steps r on firm hold.This guidance or the intent is of none else than the force of God. > vrkrishnan > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee wrote: > > bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:05 AM I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect some > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks for > clearing my thoughts > With bets wishes > Sushma > > , " Rohiniranjan " > <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you have > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in general in > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or towards > the > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will not > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other floating > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement creates > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the next > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform or > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) and > > the climb continues. > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If not, > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear Shri Sushma Jee, Sahridaya Pranams.Very fascinating topic and feel that such a meaningful can never have any conclusion or ending.Many things come to the mind when things in reality become in comprehensible and beyond logic.The Mystery that unfolds and the Gates that get opened electronically without human interference need no scientific inquiry.As some Astronaut after reaching Moon's surface and making space walk " bows done to " THE UNFORESEEN " and Salutes.This kind of NIMITTAMATRA feeling is again thought that strengthens our insecurity and inturn making our freewill as limted will,otherwise referred to as Destiny regards vrkrishnan --- On Mon, 7/21/08, bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee wrote: bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee Re: importance of birthplace in chart Monday, July 21, 2008, 6:59 PM Dear Krishnan Ji In fact I had closed this topic, by saying that I will have to collect more information on this topic, otherwise there is no end of this discussion " . But the last line of your letter again compelled me to continue this topic " This guidance or the intent is of none else than the force of God. " That is what I have been telling that without God's will nothing happens and nothing can happen. Then where is the Free Will? (it is not necessary that that Free Will is only for development, it may be any kind of wish). I wish to become a teacher, but my circumstances push me to become a singer, or a scientist, or something else. I want to serve my parents, but Destiny sends me abroad and I am not there to serve them when they need me most. A girl goes to her in-law's house with the intense desire to serve them, but unfortunately those people behave with her so badly that she forgets everything whatever she thought before marriage. The girl had no bad intention. WHAT IS THIS? While, one goes to abroad even one has not even dreamt about it; one is saved in a plane crash when all others are killed, parents are ready to marry their daughter and she dies in an accident. How these unimaginable events occur? That is why I believe that nothing is our hand. At the same time I believe that all this is written in our charts (Of course only a good reader is required to read it). I am sorry to prolong this thread, but I am supporting your views only. With regards Sushma , vattem krishnan <bursar_99@. ..> wrote: > > Shri Bhagavat jee, > Progression of life and improving the course through the cycle of births definetely what all intend to achieve and what we have done and how karma reflects for good and bad of the life of the person.Also how actions benifit others.The objective will be clear only when is in thoughts and actions. > Secondly these karmas or intents to do by way of action need no doubt blessings of the Supernatural force.The one who carry out with the pharse of 'Hari Om Tatsat " and ascribes his actions and result to the Almighty creates space for himself some free will. > Destiny that is the chart to progress will also ceratinly elevate him step by step.Sequentially one finds his steps r on firm hold.This guidance or the intent is of none else than the force of God. > vrkrishnan > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee@ ...> wrote: > > bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee@ ...> > Re: importance of birthplace in chart > > Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:05 AM I think you are right, as I have said, but maybe I have collect some > more information about how one can improve his life for his next > life, otherwise this discussion is going to end. Anyways thanks for > clearing my thoughts > With bets wishes > Sushma > > , " Rohiniranjan " > <rohini_ranjan@ ...> wrote: > > > > I have not done the survey or seen one, so presuming that you have > > actually done that, I will not question your percentages etc :-) > > I felt that your judgment was a bit harsh on humanity in general in > > the first para or so. What you write in the last para or towards > the > > end does make sense but destiny is the firm step (atal, will not > > move, will not slip under our foot). Without the foot which is > > destined to rest on the stable platform, how can the other floating > > foot move so that it can reach the next step (the movement creates > > karma and more destiny for future) and then that foot in the next > > janma takes on the role of resting stably on destined platform or > > step while the other foot makes a decision to move (free will) and > > the climb continues. > > > > I hope the thought sequence and analogy makes sense to you! If not, > > then you are wasting your time reading my rant! :-) > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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