clay

[Guest guest]

Subbu-ji wrote:

Namaste Michael ji,

 

[ I am saying exactly this: 'clay' cannot appear without any form.]

 

 

Are you saying that the concept of 'clay' is the material cause of the

lump

of clay? That does not make sense.

 

[No. I am not saying that. I am not meaning that too.]

 

A concept in someone's mind does not cause anything.

 

[This statement is contentious!! All of Advaita Vedanta is about this. A

concept

that one is the body-mind produces all the samsara. And that concept also

is

caused by the concept 'I do not know'.]

 

My conclusion is that Shankara certainly was not saying

> anything of the kind. All he was saying, and it is blindingly simple,

> is that

different clay objects have in common the material cause of clay.

 

[There is no doubt about this.]

 

But even as a lump it has a presence as a something.

 

[This is the sat-kaarya vAda. The cause is also existent; the effect too

is

existent.]

 

Take for instance Au (Gold) on the periodic table. We can check against

this

abstract collection of properties to find if the lump in our hand is in

fact

gold. Those properties do not cause the lump to be gold, they are what

gold

is.If we take that gold and fashion it into something then we can say that

the

material cause of that ring or whatever is gold.

 

[All this is acceptable to Shankara]

 

We must not confuse the material cause with the efficient cause which

Shankara

is careful to distinguish.

 

[in Advaita, the material and efficient cause is one and the same entity

Brahman, in the ultimate analysis.]

 

Clay as a substance always presents itself in some form or other

 

[This is exactly what I have said.]

 

Best regards,

subbu

 

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Namaste Subbu-ji,

Thanks for that clarification.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

PraNAms

 

What is the form of clay before it became into pots? What is the form of gold

before it became into ornaments. What is the form of iron before it became into

tools.

 

The scriptures are using an example to illustrate the kaarya kaaraNa

samaanaadhikaraNa - the relation between the material cause and the effects.

 

If lump of clay is a form - the go back more fundamental the basic unit of clay

- of there is a molecule where no particular form can be defined as the material

cause.

 

If lump of gold is the starting from for ornaments then go back to basic Au atom

as the cause and irregular assemblage of it is lump and ordered arrangement of

Au atoms is an ornaments.

 

The point is from unmanifest - manifested forms are formed - that is the essence

of the scriptural teaching - as the teacher uddhaalaka goes to the fundamental

cause - as sat eve idam agra asiit. - What is the form of sat before it became

many - it is ekam eva advitiiyam - by definition it is infinite and formless.

 

The rest of discussion on the lump form of clay or gold, it seems to me, is

deviating from the essence of the teaching and will not give much insight.

avyaktaadiini bhuutani vyaktamadhyaani bhaatata .. before creation is the cause

is unmanifest and after creation it is in manifested forms.It will again go back

to unmanifest - why cry for this - says Krishna.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda