Guest guest Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Obstacles in Self-Realization: 7 Krishna provides the guide lines for Nidhidhyaasana. He says - aatmasamstham manaH kRitvaa na kinchitadapi chintayet, with the mind centered on aatma and without thinking anything else, one should contemplate. Again it is not thoughtless state but recognizing one’s own nature or as sat chit ananda swaruupa. Shree GouDapaada in advaita prakaraNa of ManDukya kaarika discusses the obstacles that arise during the nidhidhyaasana. GouDapaada lists four obstacles that can arise for seekers as they contemplate on the nature of the self. They are discussed in the following. 1. Laya or Sleep. Sitting quietly induces sleep for many, and this arises from tamasic state of the mind, since mind normally sleeps when it is quiet. 2. Vekshepa or restlessness of the mind arises from rajasic condition of the mind. Both these obstacles are obstacles against saatvic condition. Satva guNa involves alert or vigilant or focused mind. 3. kaShaaya or stagnation of the mind is the third obstacle. It is a state in which the mind is neither sleeping nor wondering, but yet not available for meditation also. Mind becomes stagnant or immobilized, and it happens when there are deep internal disturbances at subconscious level. It is some kind of a shocked condition when the mind goes blank as it faces a situation suddenly. This state is reached when the mind has deeper suppressed emotions such as anger, hatred, depression, etc. Lastly, 4) rasa aswaada or enjoyment of meditation itself. rasa means happiness – raso vai saH says Tai. Up. When the mind is relaxed as in meditation and withdrawn from all the pressing problems or worries, it starts enjoying certain happiness arising from that state. This is a conditional happiness. Meditation brings joy and experiential pleasure available at the time of relaxation. That joy is a temporary, since it depends on the mental state. Any experience-dependent pleasure of the mental state is temporary. It is also samsaara only – like sense pleasure – but meditation pleasure. Since it is an experiential pleasure and therefore temporary, aachaarya says do not get attached to that temporary pleasure also as the mind longs for it. It is not an intrinsic nature but depends on the state of the mind. Many people experience some happy moments in meditation once in a way. They say we have beautiful meditation on that day, etc. We hear stories of people, particularly the beginners who get into that state occasionally and say they are enjoying the bliss of meditation. From then on they long for it or want to repeat that experience. We hear the statements - I experienced pure bliss once, and I am trying to experience it again during meditation, and it is not coming – Such assertions or complaints are common when they can not access that state, at will. GouDapaada says do not get attached to this temporary pleasure – you will get also addicted to meditation. As a result, one starts disliking the worldly transactions. Always looking for meditation pleasure is also an obstacle for growth. He calls this as rasa aaswaadaH. GouDapaada and some sub commentators suggest some remedies to overcome these obstacles. 1. Remedy for sleep involves removing the contributing factors for sleep. Any or all of the factors may cause sleep. a.) The first is incomplete sleep or nidraa sheShaH. If I do not give enough rest for the system, (BMI) the recommended seven or eight hours, the body looks for an opportunity to get that missing sleep. Meditation is an ideal condition to get that missing sleep. Hence to avoid sleeping during meditation, one should give the BMI sufficient sleep. It means meditation should not be done when the mind is sleepy, unless sleep is the main goal of meditation. Another cause can be b) Indigestion or ajiirnam. That is a dysfunction or sedation in the body which can make the mind lethargic. c.) Over eating or bahu ashanam or meditation with full stomach induces sleep. Finally d) Physical exertion or shrama – One should not meditate when one is physically too tired. Body would like to relax and sleep comes naturally during meditation. Hence the remedy for sleep is to remove the causes for sleep. Auto suggestion to the mind not to sleep during meditation can also work. Essentially one should use any appropriate method that works for him to keep the mind vigilant or saatvik during meditation. 2. Vishepa parihaaraH – Krishna also says main cause for this restlessness of the mind is attachments. Mind wants to dwell on the object or person towards whom we have strong attachments or aversions. To overcome these raaga and dvesha, mind needs to get attached to something higher or surrender to higher. For this abhyaasa (practice) and vairaagya (detachment) are two traditional methods. By repeatedly reminding that raaga or attachments are cause of sorrow one can get detached from them. Second method is viaraagya by withdrawing or detaching the mind from attachments and redirecting it to object of meditation. Krishna says – yato yato nischarati manashcamcalam asthiram| tatastato niyamyaitad aatmanyeva vasham nayet|| By bringing into my understanding that all objects of the world are mithyaa and that they have no validity in the long run and there is nothing real other than the self, I redirect my mind back into self-inquiry or aatma vichaara. Thus by remembering the lessons learned during shravana and manana, my attachments to the objects of the world get reduced. Thus, I turn the attention away from the world of objects using the lessons learned. 3. KashaayaH means stagnation of the mind. We do not have any solution for this. We need to be aware that the mind is a hostage for deeper suppressions. This happens when the mind is forcibly withdrawn from its attachments (withdrawal symptoms). The best method suggested is to be a saakshii to the mind. In due course the mind will get out of this stagnation. Like child is forced to study when important play is going on TV – That is kashaayam – Mind is not watching the play but it is not ready to study. 4. rasaaswaadaH where meditation itself becomes an object of pleasure. The best way to overcome this is educating the intellect that any temporary pleasure is samsaara and that this happiness is not due to intrinsic self. Since it is available only during meditation, this temporary ananda or happiness is also a reflection of the original ananda of myself. It is like getting attached to the image in the mirror. With this wisdom or discrimination one can get out this obstacle and in the process shift the attention to the original than the image. Krishna also calls this as rasam, the remnant taste for sense pleasures. How to overcome this rasa aaswaadanam – lingering taste for sensuous objects? Krishna says: rasa varjam raso pyasya param dRishTaa nivartate| One can give up the taste by turning attention or investing the mind on the supreme reality. This is the real sanyaasa where one withdraws the mind from doer-ship and enjoyer-ship and reinvests it in the enquiry of the absolute truth. Another way of looking at the problem is to shift the attention to the saakshii chaitanya. By shifting our attention to the witnessing consciousness that I am, I get slowly detached from all the raaga and dveshaas, attachments and aversions. Thus the moment one discovers that the mind is getting high jacked by any of these diversions, I need to shift the attention of my mind to the witnessing consciousness that I am. That involves the recognition that all abrasions or projections are just reflections of the consciousness since I am conscious of the rest are mere abrasions or projections. They are objects of my knowledge and I am the subject. The subject being conscious entity and object being an inert entity, objects can never affect the subject, which is of higher order of reality. Janma mRityu jaraa vyaadhi duHkha doShaanudarshanam, says Krishna. The greatest attachments come from the body identification. Change is the essential nature of the world of objects including the body. By recognizing their intrinsic changing nature and understanding that any attachments to naturally changing things will only give rise to mental suffering, withdraw the mind from their clutches and recognize the divine unchanging nature of oneself. This constant shift in the attention is done by detaching the mind from lower and attaching it to the higher. This is called sanyaasa yoga- sanyaasa to lower and yoga to higher or attachment-detachment technique. Shaastra says that there is no anaatma separate from aatma – they are only naama and ruupa. Therefore GouDapaada totally rejects anaatma – just as there is no dream world separate from me, for desiring a dream-diamond after I get up. He says recognize that there is nothing other than Brahman. Thus by repeatedly reminding myself that anaatma is not different from Brahman, the wondering mind is withdrawn from the superficial names and forms to the substantive of everything, that is Brahman, the self that I am. Therefore this mithyaa world, GouDapaada says, is as good as non-existent like the mirage waters. In stead of quenching the thirst, mirage waters makes me thirstier, if I go in search of that water, as it is nothing but dry sand where water does not exist. By waking towards the mirage water to quench the thirst will make us only thirstier. Similarly we are going after the world of objects in search of happiness where there is no happiness; instead it binds us causing more unhappiness. The constant awareness of this fact, keeps the mind alert and vigilant so that it does not wander in the field of anaatma. Whenever the mind goes out, that is where we have invested our minds. The objects of our minds attention are sources for our attachments and aversions or raaga and dveshas. Half the problem is solved when one recognizes that the mind has gone out. Most of the time, we are not even aware that our minds have gone out. Before we know it, the half-hour meditation time is over. Hence the very recognition that the mind has gone out is a positive sign that we are watching where our minds are. The obvious remedy is to immediately withdraw the mind from where it has gone and reinvest in self-inquiry. When this is done repeatedly, the mind slowly settles down as the attachments become weaker and weaker. The attachments become stronger only when we let the mind indulge in those attachments, says Krishna – dhyaayato vishayaan pumsaH, sangastheshuupajaayate…. The more one thinks about any object the more one gets attached to it and more the mind wants to run towards the object, says the Lord. Hence being vigilant makes the mind alert, and makes easy for the one to recognize that the mind has run away and for deliberately bringing it back to the subject of inquiry. Vairagya, dispassion to the sense objects helps the mental withdrawal easier without suppressing the mind. Meditation with the absence of thoughts can become a source of happiness and therefore becomes a trap for the mind to indulge in. Since this is a temporary happiness, it is a reflected aananda like any other objective happiness, priya, moda or pramoda ananda, stated in Ti. Up. Therefore it belongs to only ananda kosha. The proof is after coming from meditation, one says I was blissful, with the past tense, implying that I am now tensed. Even the extraordinary pleasure during nirvikalpaka samaadhi that one gets is not brahmaananda but it is pratibimba ananda or reflected happiness only; and it will be like any sensory addiction. Therefore, it will be also a samsaara. This is called yoga ananda. GouDapaada says never get addicted to it. Let it come during my meditation or go away – I am the original which is available all the time; therefore no need to long for experiencing the temporary happiness. The longing for it makes us bound. How to see or experience the original ananda? One can never see or experience the original since is not an object for experience. It is matter for claiming the original since reflected ananda alone can be experienced, but recognition of the original in the reflection is self-realization. I have to recognize the original looking at the reflection. This is called discrimination or nitya anitya vastu viveka – seeing the original in and through the reflection. It is like when I stand in front of the mirror to see my face. I cannot see my face without a mirror. What I see in the mirror is only the reflected image of my face where the image is located in the mirror away from me. Yet, when I want to shave my face, I do for the original while looking at the image. That shift in understanding that I am the original and not the reflected chidaabhaasa in the mind is viveka or discrimination needed for self-realization. Reflected happiness comes and goes (anitya) while the original happiness that I am is ever present as I am (nitya). This constant awareness of the original consciousness while seeing the reflected consciousness or chidaabhaasa is what is termed akhanDaakaara vRitti or what Bhagavan Ramana says – aham aham tayaa spurati hRit swayam – I am, I am .. raises spontaneously in the mind and this I am is paramam purNam and sat swaruupam – supreme, full and of the nature of pure existence-consciousness that I am. This constant shift of the mind to this understanding is Nidhidhyaasana. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Dear Sadaji, Kindly elaborate in detail the topic " rasa aswadana " that is mentioned in relation to the statement " raso vai saH " . regs, sriram advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Sriram - PraNAms rasa is the juice and it is used in the Tai. Up as the juice of life - which is ananda. and He is of the nature of pure ananda swaruupam is raso vai saH| - says the Upanishad Now any other happiness that we get via object is experiential happiness. Tai Up gives a gradation of happiness scale - taking ideal man's happiness as unit. Ideal man is one who is prime youth (so that he can digest anything) and He owns the entire earth - In comparison to his happiness the gandharva ananda is 100 fold etc until we have Hiranya garbha whose ananda is ten to the power of 24 times that of unit ananda. But the same ananda one can get by detachments says the Upanishad at each step. Shortriyasya akaamaya tasya - the who is shotriya and does not have any desire to all the objects the lower loka he also enjoys the same happiness as the one who has everything in that loka. Meditation pleasure is also like the one who is detached to all lower things and enjoying the calm quiet mind. Since the mind is free from agitation, it finds a solace or happiness in that state. People experience occasionally during meditation and say we have beautiful meditation since they enjoyed that happiness - it is actually absence of sorrow more than presence of happiness. It happens when the mind is calm and quiet and vigilant. Once one comes out of that, people say we enjoyed and next time they want to experience again. Now the mind is anxious unlike before and that very anxiety makes the mind difficult to reach that quiet state again. It may happen some other time when there is no anxiety. But all these happy states are experiential type since one enjoys as mental state. It is not based on understanding ones own nature. One desires that state and hence it becomes another vaasanas. On the other hand when one uses viveka and discriminate the real from the image, then one shifts the attention to the self that is there beyond the image. Image or reflected ananda comes and goes but when I shift my attention to the original which is always there in spite of coming and going of the reflections then I am in my own natural state - that is self-realization that was addressed in the end .. Hope this helps Hari Om! Sada--- On Fri, 3/26/10, Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi Re: A Perspective - 28advaitin Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 8:38 AM Dear Sadaji,Kindly elaborate in detail the topic "rasa aswadana" that is mentioned in relation to the statement "raso vai saH". regs,sriram advaitin@ s.com, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada@ ...> wrote:>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Sadaji, I read it fully and it was very good read. I liked the example of the mirror. Like we never lose sight that the image in the mirror is only a reflection of the 'real-me', so also a jnani never loses sight that the manifest world is a reflection of the real Self. Can a person attaining to Nidhidhyasana (or that shift to right understanding) get deluded by maya again - i.e by desire, fear, name & fame - or has the person become jivan-mukta? I ask because it seems that shift is something perennial with 100% conviction - so what else can there be to attain? In the section where you were describing how to overcome restlessness of the mind, I was expecting mention of focussing the mind on Ishvara or on Ishta-devata. It may be included in the abhyasa part or maybe the stage of atma-vichara that you have referred to, comes later. Is there a 'bhaktha's viewpoint vs jnani's viewpoint' (i.e. one who proceeds through or settles in the mode of bhakthi and one who proceeds through atma-vichara alone) on the same topics that will differ in how we emphasize the methods - and yet both be correct/non-contradictory? I see your elaboration specific to the jnani's viewpoint as it minimizes mention of Ishvara. (This is also relevant to my earlier post regarding Swami Atmapriyananda's essay on Neo-Vedanta. He makes much ado about Sri Ramakrishna using a paradigm of " Nitya-Lila " as opposed to Shankara using " Satya-Mithya " .) Finally, along the same lines, if a dvaitin is continually thinking of Krishna (i.e. meditating on Krishna in the dvaita sense), he experiences the bliss of meditation continually. When he deals with the world, he is always linking back to Krishna. So my question is: what is wrong with this rasaaswaadaH? How does this constitute a lower state than the jnani whose conviction is that all is Brahman, etc? In both cases, there is presumably 100% conviction of respective ideas of Truth. thollmelukaalkizhu advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > > Obstacles in Self-Realization: 7 > > Krishna provides the guide lines for Nidhidhyaasana. He says - aatmasamstham manaH kRitvaa na kinchitadapi chintayet, with the mind centered on aatma and without thinking anything else, one should contemplate. Again it is not thoughtless state but recognizing one’s own nature or as sat chit ananda swaruupa. Shree GouDapaada in advaita prakaraNa of ManDukya kaarika discusses the obstacles that arise during the nidhidhyaasana. > > GouDapaada lists four obstacles that can arise for seekers as they contemplate on the nature of the self. They are discussed in the following. 1. Laya or Sleep. Sitting quietly induces sleep for many, and this arises from tamasic state of the mind, since mind normally sleeps when it is quiet. 2. Vekshepa or restlessness of the mind arises from rajasic condition of the mind. Both these obstacles are obstacles against saatvic condition. Satva guNa involves alert or vigilant or focused mind. 3. kaShaaya or stagnation of the mind is the third obstacle. It is a state in which the mind is neither sleeping nor wondering, but yet not available for meditation also. Mind becomes stagnant or immobilized, and it happens when there are deep internal disturbances at subconscious level. It is some kind of a shocked condition when the mind goes blank as it faces a situation suddenly. This state is reached when the mind has deeper suppressed emotions such as anger, > hatred, depression, etc. Lastly, 4) rasa aswaada or enjoyment of meditation itself. rasa means happiness †" raso vai saH says Tai. Up. When the mind is relaxed as in meditation and withdrawn from all the pressing problems or worries, it starts enjoying certain happiness arising from that state. This is a conditional happiness. Meditation brings joy and experiential pleasure available at the time of relaxation. That joy is a temporary, since it depends on the mental state. Any experience-dependent pleasure of the mental state is temporary. It is also samsaara only †" like sense pleasure †" but meditation pleasure. Since it is an experiential pleasure and therefore temporary, aachaarya says do not get attached to that temporary pleasure also as the mind longs for it. It is not an intrinsic nature but depends on the state of the mind. Many people experience some happy moments in meditation once in a way. They say we have beautiful meditation on that > day, etc. We hear stories of people, particularly the beginners who get into that state occasionally and say they are enjoying the bliss of meditation. From then on they long for it or want to repeat that experience. We hear the statements - I experienced pure bliss once, and I am trying to experience it again during meditation, and it is not coming †" Such assertions or complaints are common when they can not access that state, at will. GouDapaada says do not get attached to this temporary pleasure †" you will get also addicted to meditation. As a result, one starts disliking the worldly transactions. Always looking for meditation pleasure is also an obstacle for growth. He calls this as rasa aaswaadaH. > > GouDapaada and some sub commentators suggest some remedies to overcome these obstacles. 1. Remedy for sleep involves removing the contributing factors for sleep. Any or all of the factors may cause sleep. a.) The first is incomplete sleep or nidraa sheShaH. If I do not give enough rest for the system, (BMI) the recommended seven or eight hours, the body looks for an opportunity to get that missing sleep. Meditation is an ideal condition to get that missing sleep. Hence to avoid sleeping during meditation, one should give the BMI sufficient sleep. It means meditation should not be done when the mind is sleepy, unless sleep is the main goal of meditation. Another cause can be b) Indigestion or ajiirnam. That is a dysfunction or sedation in the body which can make the mind lethargic. c.) Over eating or bahu ashanam or meditation with full stomach induces sleep. Finally d) Physical exertion or shrama †" One should not meditate when one is physically too > tired. Body would like to relax and sleep comes naturally during meditation. Hence the remedy for sleep is to remove the causes for sleep. Auto suggestion to the mind not to sleep during meditation can also work. Essentially one should use any appropriate method that works for him to keep the mind vigilant or saatvik during meditation. > > 2. Vishepa parihaaraH †" Krishna also says main cause for this restlessness of the mind is attachments. Mind wants to dwell on the object or person towards whom we have strong attachments or aversions. To overcome these raaga and dvesha, mind needs to get attached to something higher or surrender to higher. For this abhyaasa (practice) and vairaagya (detachment) are two traditional methods. By repeatedly reminding that raaga or attachments are cause of sorrow one can get detached from them. Second method is viaraagya by withdrawing or detaching the mind from attachments and redirecting it to object of meditation. Krishna says †" yato yato nischarati manashcamcalam asthiram| tatastato niyamyaitad aatmanyeva vasham nayet|| By bringing into my understanding that all objects of the world are mithyaa and that they have no validity in the long run and there is nothing real other than the self, I redirect my mind back into self-inquiry or aatma vichaara. > Thus by remembering the lessons learned during shravana and manana, my attachments to the objects of the world get reduced. Thus, I turn the attention away from the world of objects using the lessons learned. 3. KashaayaH means stagnation of the mind. We do not have any solution for this. We need to be aware that the mind is a hostage for deeper suppressions. This happens when the mind is forcibly withdrawn from its attachments (withdrawal symptoms). The best method suggested is to be a saakshii to the mind. In due course the mind will get out of this stagnation. Like child is forced to study when important play is going on TV †" That is kashaayam †" Mind is not watching the play but it is not ready to study. > > 4. rasaaswaadaH where meditation itself becomes an object of pleasure. The best way to overcome this is educating the intellect that any temporary pleasure is samsaara and that this happiness is not due to intrinsic self. Since it is available only during meditation, this temporary ananda or happiness is also a reflection of the original ananda of myself. It is like getting attached to the image in the mirror. With this wisdom or discrimination one can get out this obstacle and in the process shift the attention to the original than the image. Krishna also calls this as rasam, the remnant taste for sense pleasures. How to overcome this rasa aaswaadanam †" lingering taste for sensuous objects? Krishna says: rasa varjam raso pyasya param dRishTaa nivartate| One can give up the taste by turning attention or investing the mind on the supreme reality. This is the real sanyaasa where one withdraws the mind from doer-ship and enjoyer-ship and reinvests it > in the enquiry of the absolute truth. Another way of looking at the problem is to shift the attention to the saakshii chaitanya. > > By shifting our attention to the witnessing consciousness that I am, I get slowly detached from all the raaga and dveshaas, attachments and aversions. Thus the moment one discovers that the mind is getting high jacked by any of these diversions, I need to shift the attention of my mind to the witnessing consciousness that I am. That involves the recognition that all abrasions or projections are just reflections of the consciousness since I am conscious of the rest are mere abrasions or projections. They are objects of my knowledge and I am the subject. The subject being conscious entity and object being an inert entity, objects can never affect the subject, which is of higher order of reality. Janma mRityu jaraa vyaadhi duHkha doShaanudarshanam, says Krishna. The greatest attachments come from the body identification. Change is the essential nature of the world of objects including the body. By recognizing their intrinsic changing nature and > understanding that any attachments to naturally changing things will only give rise to mental suffering, withdraw the mind from their clutches and recognize the divine unchanging nature of oneself. This constant shift in the attention is done by detaching the mind from lower and attaching it to the higher. This is called sanyaasa yoga- sanyaasa to lower and yoga to higher or attachment-detachment technique. > > Shaastra says that there is no anaatma separate from aatma †" they are only naama and ruupa. Therefore GouDapaada totally rejects anaatma †" just as there is no dream world separate from me, for desiring a dream-diamond after I get up. He says recognize that there is nothing other than Brahman. Thus by repeatedly reminding myself that anaatma is not different from Brahman, the wondering mind is withdrawn from the superficial names and forms to the substantive of everything, that is Brahman, the self that I am. Therefore this mithyaa world, GouDapaada says, is as good as non-existent like the mirage waters. In stead of quenching the thirst, mirage waters makes me thirstier, if I go in search of that water, as it is nothing but dry sand where water does not exist. By waking towards the mirage water to quench the thirst will make us only thirstier. Similarly we are going after the world of objects in search of happiness where there is no happiness; > instead it binds us causing more unhappiness. The constant awareness of this fact, keeps the mind alert and vigilant so that it does not wander in the field of anaatma. > > Whenever the mind goes out, that is where we have invested our minds. The objects of our minds attention are sources for our attachments and aversions or raaga and dveshas. Half the problem is solved when one recognizes that the mind has gone out. Most of the time, we are not even aware that our minds have gone out. Before we know it, the half-hour meditation time is over. Hence the very recognition that the mind has gone out is a positive sign that we are watching where our minds are. The obvious remedy is to immediately withdraw the mind from where it has gone and reinvest in self-inquiry. When this is done repeatedly, the mind slowly settles down as the attachments become weaker and weaker. The attachments become stronger only when we let the mind indulge in those attachments, says Krishna †" dhyaayato vishayaan pumsaH, sangastheshuupajaayate…. The more one thinks about any object the more one gets attached to it and more the mind wants to run > towards the object, says the Lord. Hence being vigilant makes the mind alert, and makes easy for the one to recognize that the mind has run away and for deliberately bringing it back to the subject of inquiry. Vairagya, dispassion to the sense objects helps the mental withdrawal easier without suppressing the mind. Meditation with the absence of thoughts can become a source of happiness and therefore becomes a trap for the mind to indulge in. Since this is a temporary happiness, it is a reflected aananda like any other objective happiness, priya, moda or pramoda ananda, stated in Ti. Up. Therefore it belongs to only ananda kosha. The proof is after coming from meditation, one says I was blissful, with the past tense, implying that I am now tensed. Even the extraordinary pleasure during nirvikalpaka samaadhi that one gets is not brahmaananda but it is pratibimba ananda or reflected happiness only; and it will be like any sensory addiction. Therefore, it > will be also a samsaara. This is called yoga ananda. GouDapaada says never get addicted to it. Let it come during my meditation or go away †" I am the original which is available all the time; therefore no need to long for experiencing the temporary happiness. The longing for it makes us bound. > > How to see or experience the original ananda? One can never see or experience the original since is not an object for experience. It is matter for claiming the original since reflected ananda alone can be experienced, but recognition of the original in the reflection is self-realization. I have to recognize the original looking at the reflection. This is called discrimination or nitya anitya vastu viveka †" seeing the original in and through the reflection. It is like when I stand in front of the mirror to see my face. I cannot see my face without a mirror. What I see in the mirror is only the reflected image of my face where the image is located in the mirror away from me. Yet, when I want to shave my face, I do for the original while looking at the image. That shift in understanding that I am the original and not the reflected chidaabhaasa in the mind is viveka or discrimination needed for self-realization. Reflected happiness comes and goes > (anitya) while the original happiness that I am is ever present as I am (nitya). This constant awareness of the original consciousness while seeing the reflected consciousness or chidaabhaasa is what is termed akhanDaakaara vRitti or what Bhagavan Ramana says †" aham aham tayaa spurati hRit swayam †" I am, I am .. raises spontaneously in the mind and this I am is paramam purNam and sat swaruupam †" supreme, full and of the nature of pure existence-consciousness that I am. > > This constant shift of the mind to this understanding is Nidhidhyaasana. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Thank you sadaji, regs, sriram--- On Fri, 26/3/10, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisadaRe: Re: A Perspective - 28advaitin Date: Friday, 26 March, 2010, 8:17 PM Sriram - PraNAms rasa is the juice and it is used in the Tai. Up as the juice of life - which is ananda. and He is of the nature of pure ananda swaruupam is raso vai saH| - says the Upanishad Now any other happiness that we get via object is experiential happiness. Tai Up gives a gradation of happiness scale - taking ideal man's happiness as unit. Ideal man is one who is prime youth (so that he can digest anything) and He owns the entire earth - In comparison to his happiness the gandharva ananda is 100 fold etc until we have Hiranya garbha whose ananda is ten to the power of 24 times that of unit ananda. But the same ananda one can get by detachments says the Upanishad at each step. Shortriyasya akaamaya tasya - the who is shotriya and does not have any desire to all the objects the lower loka he also enjoys the same happiness as the one who has everything in that loka. Meditation pleasure is also like the one who is detached to all lower things and enjoying the calm quiet mind. Since the mind is free from agitation, it finds a solace or happiness in that state. People experience occasionally during meditation and say we have beautiful meditation since they enjoyed that happiness - it is actually absence of sorrow more than presence of happiness. It happens when the mind is calm and quiet and vigilant. Once one comes out of that, people say we enjoyed and next time they want to experience again. Now the mind is anxious unlike before and that very anxiety makes the mind difficult to reach that quiet state again. It may happen some other time when there is no anxiety. But all these happy states are experiential type since one enjoys as mental state. It is not based on understanding ones own nature. One desires that state and hence it becomes another vaasanas. On the other hand when one uses viveka and discriminate the real from the image, then one shifts the attention to the self that is there beyond the image. Image or reflected ananda comes and goes but when I shift my attention to the original which is always there in spite of coming and going of the reflections then I am in my own natural state - that is self-realization that was addressed in the end .. Hope this helps Hari Om! Sada--- On Fri, 3/26/10, Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi@ .co. in> wrote: Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi@ .co. in> Re: A Perspective - 28advaitin@ s.comFriday, March 26, 2010, 8:38 AM Dear Sadaji,Kindly elaborate in detail the topic "rasa aswadana" that is mentioned in relation to the statement "raso vai saH". regs,sriram advaitin@ s.com, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada@ ...> wrote:>> Your Mail works best with the New Optimized IE8. Get it NOW!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Putrranm ji - PraNAms After a long time. On the lighter side, you are violating two rules, one written and one unwritten. The written one is you are supposed to retain only the relevant portions and not the whole post when responding. The second unwritten rule is you are not supposed to ask intelligent questions. The answers are interjected in between the text - The title of the series should give me a good leverage, don't you think so? --- On Fri, 3/26/10, putranm <putranm wrote: I liked the example of the mirror. Like we never lose sight that the image in the mirror is only a reflection of the 'real-me', so also a jnani never loses sight that the manifest world is a reflection of the real Self. Can a person attaining to Nidhidhyasana (or that shift to right understanding) get deluded by maya again - i.e by desire, fear, name & fame - or has the person become jivan-mukta? I ask because it seems that shift is something perennial with 100% conviction - so what else can there be to attain? ---------- Putranmji - the example is actually comes from bimba-pratibimba vaada. The all pervading consciousness can not be known just as all pervading light cannot be seen. Only if there is an object which reflects the light then the light makes the object known and object makes the light's presence revealed. Hence without mind existence of the all pervading consciousness cannot be revealed. I have discussed this exhaustively in the previous posts in the series. The reflected consciousness in the mind is called chidaabhaasa. The consciousness does not get affected by the reflection in the mind. This reflected from the mind illumines the thoughts rising in the mind where the thoughts are images of the objects in the form of vRitti. The quality of the reflection now depends on the purity of the mind. It is like sun light gets reflected by the moon and in the moon light we can see things on a full-moon night. As you are familiar it is only the reflected light from the object forms an image in the retina which forms - optical image signal in the mind. Hence what you are seeing is not really the object but the reflected light from the moon which in turn is nothing but reflected light from the sun in the form of image in the mind. In the same way the light of consciousness which is all pervading gets reflected first by the moon and that reflected light is further reflected by the vRitti or thought in the mind for me to know the thought (of an object out there). Nidhidhyaasana is therefore shifting my attention from the object (name and form) thought to the light of reflection which is traced back to the original light of consciousness. Nidhidhyaasana, is then, one being constantly vigilant and be aware of the presence of the light of consciousness that is getting filtered through the mind and then through the object thoughts. That light of consciousness is I am. That is what is involved in the bimba-pratibimba vaada - as a means to see or recognize that Saakshii which otherwise cannot be recognized. If the mind is pure, the reflection comes out in all its glory. Discrimination is like seeing the sunlight in and through when moon is illuming the objects on a full-moon night, since moon does not have light of its own. ---------- In the section where you were describing how to overcome restlessness of the mind, I was expecting mention of focusing the mind on Ishvara or on Ishta-devata. It may be included in the abhyasa part or maybe the stage of atma-vichara that you have referred to, comes later. Putranmji -we are now taking about nidhidhyaasana after shravana and manana - which means I have understood and recognize that the substantive of jiiva-Iswara and jagat is one and the same Brahman that I am. That is jnaanam. Nidhidhyaasana is after the shravana and manana - then we are now at this stage in the binary format - aatma and anaatma. That shift in tripuTi or triangular format of jiiva-jagat-iswara to binary format aatma-anaatma is what is being discussed. Before jnaanam we have the triangular format where jiiva is different from Iswara and for every problem I am running to the temple with list. aarthaH and arthaarthii - in the triangular format. Once I have jignaasu and jnaanam I am recognizing the world is nothing but mithyaa and Iswara is nothing but the consciousness that I am. Due to praarabda and lingering habitual notions, this aatma-anaatma viveka slips out of my mind. Hence people say I have understood but I have not realized. That the emotional mind (due to raaga and dveshas) is not aligned with the intellect that has the knowledge. Nidhidhyaasana is bridge the gap as this gap is created by the lingering vaasanas which vary from a saadhak to saadhak. -------------- Is there a 'bhaktha's viewpoint vs jnani's viewpoint' (i.e. one who proceeds through or settles in the mode of bhakthi and one who proceeds through atma-vichara alone) on the same topics that will differ in how we emphasize the methods - and yet both be correct/non- contradictory? I see your elaboration specific to the jnani's viewpoint as it minimizes mention of Ishvara. Putranmji - at this level the bhakti transforms into jnaana. Remember the four bhaktaas - we are now taking about the fourth one. Lard outside is same as Lord inside as aatmaswaruupam. antarbahischa tat sarvam vyaapya naaraayaNa sthitaH - Naaraayana (you know I am vaishnavate) is inside and outside. I can say Lord pervades everything or I am -pervades everything. Both statements are the same. The two slokas in 6th of Gita follow each other: sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutanicha aatmani and yo maam pasyati sarvatra sarvanca mayi pasyati. The non-duality of aatma and iswara is obvious. That is jnaanam and that is bhakti too as per advaita. ---------- (This is also relevant to my earlier post regarding Swami Atmapriyananda' s essay on Neo-Vedanta. He makes much ado about Sri Ramakrishna using a paradigm of " Nitya-Lila " as opposed to Shankara using " Satya-Mithya " .) Putranmji - I prefer not to comment on Swami's essay since I did not study it. --------------- Finally, along the same lines, if a dvaitin is continually thinking of Krishna (i.e. meditating on Krishna in the dvaita sense), he experiences the bliss of meditation continually. When he deals with the world, he is always linking back to Krishna. So my question is: what is wrong with this rasaaswaadaH? How does this constitute a lower state than the jnani whose conviction is that all is Brahman, etc? In both cases, there is presumably 100% conviction of respective ideas of Truth. Putranmji For Dvaitin as along as there is a difference between jiiva and Iswara and jagat we are in triad or tripuTi format. There is no salvation or moksha there since each limits the other if one consders all of them are real as Dvaitins do. In the aatma and anaatma binary format there is actually advaita since anaatma is negated as mithyaa and therefore cannot be counted - just like one cannot count gold and number of ornaments as separate count. Gold is the ornaments too and Nidhidhyaasana is recognition all the time that there is only gold in and through the ornaments, while transacting with the ornaments and still differntiating rings, bangles, etc. No moksha in dvaita since each limits the other. Moksha is freedom from all limitations - that is limitless state and limited cannot become limitless unless it is already limitless and does not know that it is limitless. Ignorance of one own nature is the problem and ignorance can only be eliminated by jnaanam and nothing else. Others are helpful in preparing the mind for jnaanam. Knowledge occurs only by a pramaaNa and mahaavaakyaas provide the unity of jiiva-jagat and Iswara - Brahman satyam and jagat mithyaa. Hope this helps. Hari Om! Sadananda --------- thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Sadaji, thanks for the reply. I will have to look it more carefully, am having uneasy access to internet (in India now) at present; should also be technically sleeping now but found some bare time now and then to see your reply. Thanks again. I went to the " aruvatthimoovar " in Mylapore, Chennai, today and " Ther " yesterday, jostling with the thousands, after perhaps 18-19 years. Now that is Hindu-religion! thollmelukaalkizhu advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > Putrranm ji - PraNAms > > After a long time. > > > ---------- > Putranmji - the example is actually comes from bimba-pratibimba vaada. The all pervading consciousness can not be known just as all pervading light cannot be seen. Only if there is an object which reflects the light then the light makes the object known and object makes the light's presence revealed. Hence without mind existence of the all pervading consciousness cannot be revealed. I have discussed this exhaustively in the previous posts in the series. The reflected consciousness in the mind is called chidaabhaasa. The consciousness does not get affected by the reflection in the mind. This reflected from the mind illumines the thoughts rising in the mind where the thoughts are images of the objects in the form of vRitti. The quality of the reflection now depends on the purity of the mind. It is like sun light gets reflected by the moon and in the moon light we can see things on a full-moon night. As you are familiar it is only the reflected light from > the object forms an image in the retina which forms - optical image signal in the mind. Hence what you are seeing is not really the object but the reflected light from the moon which in turn is nothing but reflected light from the sun in the form of image in the mind. In the same way the light of consciousness which is all pervading gets reflected first by the moon and that reflected light is further reflected by the vRitti or thought in the mind for me to know the thought (of an object out there). Nidhidhyaasana is therefore shifting my attention from the object (name and form) thought to the light of reflection which is traced back to the original light of consciousness. Nidhidhyaasana, is then, one being constantly vigilant and be aware of the presence of the light of consciousness that is getting filtered through the mind and then through the object thoughts. That light of consciousness is I am. That is what is involved in the bimba-pratibimba vaada > - as a means to see or recognize that Saakshii which otherwise cannot be recognized. If the mind is pure, the reflection comes out in all its glory. Discrimination is like seeing the sunlight in and through when moon is illuming the objects on a full-moon night, since moon does not have light of its own. > > ---------- > > > > In the section where you were describing how to overcome restlessness of the mind, I was expecting mention of focusing the mind on Ishvara or on Ishta-devata. It may be included in the abhyasa part or maybe the stage of atma-vichara that you have referred to, comes later. > > > Putranmji -we are now taking about nidhidhyaasana after shravana and manana - which means I have understood and recognize that the substantive of jiiva-Iswara and jagat is one and the same Brahman that I am. That is jnaanam. Nidhidhyaasana is after the shravana and manana - then we are now at this stage in the binary format - aatma and anaatma. That shift in tripuTi or triangular format of jiiva-jagat-iswara to binary format aatma-anaatma is what is being discussed. Before jnaanam we have the triangular format where jiiva is different from Iswara and for every problem I am running to the temple with list. aarthaH and arthaarthii - in the triangular format. Once I have jignaasu and jnaanam I am recognizing the world is nothing but mithyaa and Iswara is nothing but the consciousness that I am. Due to praarabda and lingering habitual notions, this aatma-anaatma viveka slips out of my mind. Hence people say I have understood but I have not realized. That the > emotional mind (due to raaga and dveshas) is not aligned with the intellect that has the knowledge. Nidhidhyaasana is bridge the gap as this gap is created by the lingering vaasanas which vary from a saadhak to saadhak. > -------------- > > > > Is there a 'bhaktha's viewpoint vs jnani's viewpoint' (i.e. one who proceeds through or settles in the mode of bhakthi and one who proceeds through atma-vichara alone) on the same topics that will differ in how we emphasize the methods - and yet both be correct/non- contradictory? I see your elaboration specific to the jnani's viewpoint as it minimizes mention of Ishvara. > > Putranmji - at this level the bhakti transforms into jnaana. Remember the four bhaktaas - we are now taking about the fourth one. Lard outside is same as Lord inside as aatmaswaruupam. antarbahischa tat sarvam vyaapya naaraayaNa sthitaH - Naaraayana (you know I am vaishnavate) is inside and outside. I can say Lord pervades everything or I am -pervades everything. Both statements are the same. The two slokas in 6th of Gita follow each other: sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutanicha aatmani and yo maam pasyati sarvatra sarvanca mayi pasyati. The non-duality of aatma and iswara is obvious. That is jnaanam and that is bhakti too as per advaita. > ---------- > > (This is also relevant to my earlier post regarding Swami Atmapriyananda' s essay on Neo-Vedanta. He makes much ado about Sri Ramakrishna using a paradigm of " Nitya-Lila " as opposed to Shankara using " Satya-Mithya " .) > > Putranmji - I prefer not to comment on Swami's essay since I did not study it. > > --------------- > Finally, along the same lines, if a dvaitin is continually thinking of Krishna (i.e. meditating on Krishna in the dvaita sense), he experiences the bliss of meditation continually. When he deals with the world, he is always linking back to Krishna. So my question is: what is wrong with this rasaaswaadaH? How does this constitute a lower state than the jnani whose conviction is that all is Brahman, etc? In both cases, there is presumably 100% conviction of respective ideas of Truth. > > > Putranmji > > For Dvaitin as along as there is a difference between jiiva and Iswara and jagat we are in triad or tripuTi format. There is no salvation or moksha there since each limits the other if one consders all of them are real as Dvaitins do. > > In the aatma and anaatma binary format there is actually advaita since anaatma is negated as mithyaa and therefore cannot be counted - just like one cannot count gold and number of ornaments as separate count. Gold is the ornaments too and Nidhidhyaasana is recognition all the time that there is only gold in and through the ornaments, while transacting with the ornaments and still differntiating rings, bangles, etc. > > No moksha in dvaita since each limits the other. Moksha is freedom from all limitations - that is limitless state and limited cannot become limitless unless it is already limitless and does not know that it is limitless. Ignorance of one own nature is the problem and ignorance can only be eliminated by jnaanam and nothing else. Others are helpful in preparing the mind for jnaanam. Knowledge occurs only by a pramaaNa and mahaavaakyaas provide the unity of jiiva-jagat and Iswara - Brahman satyam and jagat mithyaa. > > Hope this helps. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > > --------- > > thollmelukaalkizhu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Sadaji, on this point of going beyond the triangle to the binary format. I presume the sadhaka still recognizes the distinction of one person with another and similarly of jiva and Ishvara. However he does not give importance to any category of such distinctions but lumps them as " anaatma " superimposed on " atma " . That is, the manner of association with the experienced duality is different, something like what I was mentioning as jnani's viewpoint as opposed to bhaktha's viewpoint. The bhaktha maintains the distinction between jiva and Ishvara, i.e. stays with the triangular format. However if I understand your statements correctly, at some point there must be a transition to the binary format once sufficient purity of mind is attained. etc. This transition is necessary for the sadhaka to become established in nidhidhyasana of the truth of advaita. Even after this transition, there may be vasanas that make the path difficult but the sadhaka is safe enough to remain with the binary format and proceed. I see some variation between this version and the paramacharya's wherein the triangular format always remains as a fall-back to cushion the sadhaka - and till nidhidhyasana becomes established, Ishvara is recognized in a triangular-format sense as well. It is also an interesting point that great jnanis like Sri Ramakrishna, Paramacharya, etc seem to revel in bhakthi that seems to accept (in a practical sense) the triangular format; in one perspective, when the mind becomes externalized, some jnanis accepts the role as jiva and maintains the mood of a devotee, as child of God, etc. thollmelukaalkizhu > > > > In the section where you were describing how to overcome restlessness of the mind, I was expecting mention of focusing the mind on Ishvara or on Ishta-devata. It may be included in the abhyasa part or maybe the stage of atma-vichara that you have referred to, comes later. > > > Putranmji -we are now taking about nidhidhyaasana after shravana and manana - which means I have understood and recognize that the substantive of jiiva-Iswara and jagat is one and the same Brahman that I am. That is jnaanam. Nidhidhyaasana is after the shravana and manana - then we are now at this stage in the binary format - aatma and anaatma. That shift in tripuTi or triangular format of jiiva-jagat-iswara to binary format aatma-anaatma is what is being discussed. Before jnaanam we have the triangular format where jiiva is different from Iswara and for every problem I am running to the temple with list. aarthaH and arthaarthii - in the triangular format. Once I have jignaasu and jnaanam I am recognizing the world is nothing but mithyaa and Iswara is nothing but the consciousness that I am. Due to praarabda and lingering habitual notions, this aatma-anaatma viveka slips out of my mind. Hence people say I have understood but I have not realized. That the > emotional mind (due to raaga and dveshas) is not aligned with the intellect that has the knowledge. Nidhidhyaasana is bridge the gap as this gap is created by the lingering vaasanas which vary from a saadhak to saadhak. > -------------- > > > > Is there a 'bhaktha's viewpoint vs jnani's viewpoint' (i.e. one who proceeds through or settles in the mode of bhakthi and one who proceeds through atma-vichara alone) on the same topics that will differ in how we emphasize the methods - and yet both be correct/non- contradictory? I see your elaboration specific to the jnani's viewpoint as it minimizes mention of Ishvara. > > Putranmji - at this level the bhakti transforms into jnaana. Remember the four bhaktaas - we are now taking about the fourth one. Lard outside is same as Lord inside as aatmaswaruupam. antarbahischa tat sarvam vyaapya naaraayaNa sthitaH - Naaraayana (you know I am vaishnavate) is inside and outside. I can say Lord pervades everything or I am -pervades everything. Both statements are the same. The two slokas in 6th of Gita follow each other: sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutanicha aatmani and yo maam pasyati sarvatra sarvanca mayi pasyati. The non-duality of aatma and iswara is obvious. That is jnaanam and that is bhakti too as per advaita. > ---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > Sitaraji - PraNAms > > My paying constant attention to that unbroken light is akhanDaakaara vRitti. It is like great musician paying attention to the background tambura shruti so that all his avarohana and aarohana are around that shruti. The constant awareness to that back ground light of consciousness is akhanDa aakaara vRitti. > Hari Om! > Sadananda Dear Sada-ji, The above statements give the impression that akhaNDAkAra vRRitti is a continuous process. Perhaps you did not mean that. Actually, this vRRitti, like any other vRRitti, or modification of the mind, arises and then disappears when its purpose, namely, the production of the relevant knowledge, is over. The akhaNDAkAra vRRitti arises in the mind as a result of contemplation on the mahAvAkya. After the vRRitti has arisen, there is nothing more to be done. That is the culmination. The person who has attained this akhaNDAkAra vRRitti is immediately enlightened. The vRRitti disappears after it has served its purpose. This is just by way of clarification. Regards, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 --- On Sun, 3/28/10, putranm <putranm wrote: Sadaji, on this point of going beyond the triangle to the binary format. I presume the sadhaka still recognizes the distinction of one person with another and similarly of jiva and Ishvara. However he does not give importance to any category of such distinctions but lumps them as " anaatma " superimposed on " atma " . -- KS Yes. That is correct. He gives importance as needed at a relative level. Food he eats - garbage he discards. Those transactions can go on but he does not have psychological investment on the things that come and go. Emotional and intellectual gap is now getting eliminated. ----------- That is, the manner of association with the experienced duality is different, something like what I was mentioning as jnani's viewpoint as opposed to bhaktha's viewpoint. The bhaktha maintains the distinction between jiva and Ishvara, i.e. stays with the triangular format. However if I understand your statements correctly, at some point there must be a transition to the binary format once sufficient purity of mind is attained. etc. This transition is necessary for the sadhaka to become established in nidhidhyasana of the truth of advaita. Even after this transition, there may be vasanas that make the path difficult but the sadhaka is safe enough to remain with the binary format and proceed. KS Again you are correct in the understanding. Brahman as all pervading one advaita and it cannot have triad - other than at apparent level - for that I need to switch to binary format - aatma anaatma switch. Once I am fully established in that understanding I can deliberately go to triad as play. That becomes liila vibhuuti. Deliberate play is different from desperate living. The life becomes enchanting rather than a drag. Shankara writing on Bhakti slokas on Iswara is typical example, while recognizing the iswara swaruupam and aatmaswaruupam are the same. ------------ I see some variation between this version and the paramacharya' s wherein the triangular format always remains as a fall-back to cushion the sadhaka - and till nidhidhyasana becomes established, Ishvara is recognized in a triangular-format sense as well. It is also an interesting point that great jnanis like Sri Ramakrishna, Paramacharya, etc seem to revel in bhakthi that seems to accept (in a practical sense) the triangular format; in one perspective, when the mind becomes externalized, some jnanis accepts the role as jiva and maintains the mood of a devotee, as child of God, etc. -------- KS I am not qualified to comment to paramaacharya's version. What I understand is should not be different from what advaitic masters have said including paramacharya. The emphasis may be different depending on to whom it is addressed. Going back to triad is like paying attention to the contents of the thoughts besides the reflecting light of consciousness. The nidhidhyaasana in a way is trying to get emotional attachments which want to cling to the contents of the thoughts to the witnessing consciousness that I am. Once we understand the picture, one can adopt it to ones need. That is saadhana. Ultimately in the very realization even the saadhana has to get dissolved as one sees from the top, all means are part of vyavahaara only to arrive at the paaramaarthika understanding. Hope this helps Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Sastriji - PraNAms Yes you are absolutely correct. I was referring to during Nidhidhyaasana time where shifting attention constantly to that until one firmly get established in that state. kRitvaajnaanam swayam nasyet jalam kaTaka renuvat - where the knowledge of binary format too get dissolved - where aatma anaaamta vichaara itself gets sublimated when one fully get established in I am as sat chit ananda swaruupam. Thanks for pointing out. Hari Om! Sadananda The above statements give the impression that akhaNDAkAra vRRitti is a continuous process. Perhaps you did not mean that. Actually, this vRRitti, like any other vRRitti, or modification of the mind, arises and then disappears when its purpose, namely, the production of the relevant knowledge, is over. The akhaNDAkAra vRRitti arises in the mind as a result of contemplation on the mahAvAkya. After the vRRitti has arisen, there is nothing more to be done. That is the culmination. The person who has attained this akhaNDAkAra vRRitti is immediately enlightened. The vRRitti disappears after it has served its purpose. This is just by way of clarification. Regards, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Sadaji, some comments below, as I understand. > > KS > Again you are correct in the understanding. Brahman as all pervading one advaita and it cannot have triad - other than at apparent level - for that I need to switch to binary format - aatma anaatma switch. Once I am fully established in that understanding I can deliberately go to triad as play. That becomes liila vibhuuti. Deliberate play is different from desperate living. The life becomes enchanting rather than a drag. Shankara writing on Bhakti slokas on Iswara is typical example, while recognizing the iswara swaruupam and aatmaswaruupam are the same. > > ------------ ME: Yes, this also answers/corresponds with my mention of some jnanis revelling in Bhakthi. > KS > Going back to triad is like paying attention to the contents of the thoughts besides the reflecting light of consciousness. The nidhidhyaasana in a way is trying to get emotional attachments which want to cling to the contents of the thoughts to the witnessing consciousness that I am. Once we understand the picture, one can adopt it to ones need. That is saadhana. Ultimately in the very realization even the saadhana has to get dissolved as one sees from the top, all means are part of vyavahaara only to arrive at the paaramaarthika understanding. ME: Likely I am loosely misrepresenting the paramacharya. But you answered this " going back " in the previous part's response, although that is with regard to a full jnani and not a sadhaka. With what the acharya was saying, it seems there is also some level of recognition of the triad involved in the sadhaka - for the very notion of " sadhaka " would imply the triad as well, whether the sadhana explicitly involves the recognition of it or otherwise. Since the sadhaka wants to realize truth beyond the triad-level, it is possible that he should not be insisting forever on contemplating on the " truth " of the triad level. However so long as he is in the process of sadhana, the level of operation is the triad and if the question on the process is raised, the answer " Ishvara's anugraha " remains valid as the final resolution for his realizing Advaita. thollmelukaalkizhu > > Hope this helps > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Putranmji - PraNAms In the understanding of maahavaakyas where I am and this is are equated to arrive at one advaita Brahman as the substantive of jiiva-jagat and Iswara, the saadhana is fulfilled. Iswara that I have been invoking as separate from me is understood in this equation - as not this that I worship - tat eva brahma tvam viddhi nedam yadidam upaasate -Kena. In that understanding the pramaaNa prameya pramatRi - triad has to sublimate to aatma anaatma dyad where aatma is satyam and anaatma is mithyaa. As in any knowledge, understanding is not purusha tantram or one cannot will the knowledge - it is vastu tantram - depends on the object of the knowledge. In this case the object the prameya and subject pramaataa are merging into one, conventional process of knowledge or jnaana prakRiya itself ceases - which Sastriji just pointed out. One can call it at that time Iswara kRipa or aatma kRipa - words themselves loose their meaning. However for loka kalyaanam, it is simpler to say it is Iswara Kripa with clear understanding that kshetrajna is only one whatever name one calls it. Hence the Gita slokas of ch 6 that quoted - either one can say yo maam pasyti sarvatra sarvanca mayi pasyati - as a bhakta or sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutaani ca aatmani - the end result is the same- Brahma satyam-jagat mithyaa. A mahaatma can say, identifying with local BMI, as paramaatma kRipa for purpose of communication or can scream out - aham annam aham annam aham annam - aham annaadou aham annaadou aham annaadou. or aham vRikshasya reriva, like trishanku in Tai. Up. How he communicates this end result and to whom he communicates depends on the circumstances and the quality of audience. From our point we should have clear understanding the role of saadhana for anjaani for jnaanam and jnaani during nidhidhyaasana. Hope the post is clear now. That is why I presented as jnaanam and jnaanaphalam- recognizing that these distinctions become transparent in the end. Thanks for raising the issues and Thanks for Sastriji also for helping in the clarification. Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Sun, 3/28/10, putranm <putranm wrote: Since the sadhaka wants to realize truth beyond the triad-level, it is possible that he should not be insisting forever on contemplating on the " truth " of the triad level. However so long as he is in the process of sadhana, the level of operation is the triad and if the question on the process is raised, the answer " Ishvara's anugraha " remains valid as the final resolution for his realizing Advaita. thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda > However for loka kalyaanam, it is simpler to say it is Iswara Kripa with clear understanding that kshetrajna is only one whatever name one calls it. > Hence the Gita slokas of ch 6 that quoted - either one can say > yo maam pasyti sarvatra sarvanca mayi pasyati - as a bhakta > or sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutaani ca aatmani - the end result is the same- Brahma satyam-jagat mithyaa. > > A mahaatma can say, identifying with local BMI, as paramaatma kRipa for purpose of communication or can scream out - aham annam aham annam aham annam - aham annaadou aham annaadou aham annaadou. or aham vRikshasya reriva, like trishanku in Tai. Up. How he communicates this end result and to whom he communicates depends on the circumstances and the quality of audience. > Sadaji, I think the leeway here is in the understanding of Ishvara. Suppose Ishvara in vyavahara is a Being identifiable through the limiting adjuncts of body-mind-intellect (hence possessing an Ego, albeit pure, etc), then we would find it more difficult to sublate His personal-impersonal role (albeit detached in the general karma context). However Ishvara itself is (typically) a personalizing word for the Total/Supreme Being that/who brings forth our personalities (BMI) - we cannot quite commit Him to an Ego or (B)MI and yet we may not be in error if we identify with Him personally. This allows for valid variations in our communication. thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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