Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > That's a nice belief, BTW. > > > > " Hold onto it... as well as you can " . > > > > Probably won't be for more than a minute or two. > Thoughts are slippery little things aren't they? > > :-) > > I wasn't picking on you two. > > It's just that any theories about that true nature of something > that exists only conceptually is laughable. > > It's like studying shadows. .... and that's what Toom is busy doing, eh? Studying shadows. It's laughable. So much time spent on these groups, picking apart what isn't there. > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within > the assumption of time and then deny it. > > The same thing applies when the self denies the reality of the self. As Toom is constantly doing. I'm picking on you. No apologies for it, either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > > > That's a nice belief, BTW. > > > > > > " Hold onto it... as well as you can " . > > > > > > Probably won't be for more than a minute or two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are slippery little things aren't they? > > > > :-) > > > > I wasn't picking on you two. > > > > It's just that any theories about that true nature of something > > that exists only conceptually is laughable. > > > > It's like studying shadows. > > ... and that's what Toom is busy doing, eh? > > Studying shadows. > > It's laughable. > > So much time spent on these groups, picking apart what isn't there. > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within > > the assumption of time and then deny it. > > > > The same thing applies when the self denies the reality of the self. > > As Toom is constantly doing. > > I'm picking on you. > > No apologies for it, either. > Well.......since neither of us has a choice.........apologies would be downright silly. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it.-toomba- There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > -toomba- > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > -geo- > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:14 PM Re: for some funny worldly reason Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the > assumption of time and then deny it. > -toomba- > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > -geo- > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. toombaru You are saying that time is a concept. -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:14 PM > Re: for some funny worldly reason > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the > > assumption of time and then deny it. > > -toomba- > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > -geo- > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then > denying its existence. > > toombaru > > You are saying that time is a concept. > -geo- > Anything that has a name is a concept. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:49 PM Re: for some funny worldly reason Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:14 PM > Re: for some funny worldly reason > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the > > assumption of time and then deny it. > > -toomba- > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > -geo- > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then > denying its existence. > > toombaru > > You are saying that time is a concept. > -geo- > Anything that has a name is a concept. toombaru What are you contesteing? I said time is a concept, you say time is a concept. :>)))) -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > > -toomba- > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > -geo- > > > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. > > > > toombaru P: Concepts R Us. There is a war going on. Meme against meme. Hand to hand combat. Punch, kick, bite, stab. Take no prisoners. Be that last meme standing, or there will be no " you " . > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > > > -toomba- > > > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > P: Concepts R Us. There is a war going on. > Meme against meme. Hand to hand combat. Punch, > kick, bite, stab. Take no prisoners. Be that > last meme standing, or there will be no " you " . > > > > Yes. It is a war. And ain't It grand? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > - D - > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > toombaru And time is constructed by the thumb and car door. And all conceptualities and phenomena mutually define and co-arise. And therefore, nothing arises. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > Imaginarily related. > > One is thinking of the car door, and thinking of the thumb, and in thought, there is an assumed relation between the two. Yes. And there is no such thing as a thought about what is. What is, is. Thought, as is, is movement without content. Everything that is, is not a thing, is moving stillness. Therefore, nothing is. Thought can never grasp this, because the grasping that is thought, has never grasped anything. And thought certainly has not grasped " thought. " Yet, we speak of thought, as if there has been a thought. -- D -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 - geo Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:56 PM Re: Re: for some funny worldly reason - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:49 PM Re: for some funny worldly reason Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:14 PM > Re: for some funny worldly reason > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the > > assumption of time and then deny it. > > -toomba- > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > -geo- > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then > denying its existence. > > toombaru > > You are saying that time is a concept. > -geo- > Anything that has a name is a concept. toombaru What are you contesteing? I said time is a concept, you say time is a concept. :>)))) Besides...there is nothing else needed to do in order to " correct " the fact that some concept is being taken as non-conceptual ...jsut see it. Done. That false seen as such is not false anymore -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Imaginarily related. > > > > One is thinking of the car door, and thinking of the thumb, and in thought, there is an assumed relation between the two. > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > Hey........wanna have a cup of coffee? > > > > > > toombaru How do you fail to see that " thumb slammed in door " is your " concept " as you put it? So, it is a concept that includes a lot of hurting sensation... it is still " concept " (that word you like to use). You fail to see this because you think you have a concept of conceptuality. But you don't really. You think that something that hurts a lot must be more real than anything else. Yet you throw around terms like " identification " and " self " as if you have everything resolved and know what is so. Look, for the sake of friendship I'll give it another useless try (don't worry, I enjoy failing): The hurt is only as real as your sense of hurting is to you. It is real enough to you as it happens. It makes you scream. Your thumb turns black. You relate the thumb turning black to the car door slamming to the hurting. None of this is any more real than you, the one who is hurting, who is relating the hurt to the slamming. That you seem unable to grasp this is making me scream. Soon my throat will turn black from the pain. You see what you are doing to me????? Cut it out!!!! Get this fact right now. You will never be more you than you are able to be you. And everything that depends on you sensing it, will never be more real than you are, as one who is sensing things. There isn't any time to think this over, to reason about it. - Dan - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Imaginarily related. > > > > > > > > One is thinking of the car door, and thinking of the thumb, and in thought, there is an assumed relation between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > When did it get slammed in the car door, and turn black? > > > > Specify which memory is being referred to. > > > > > > I'm looking at the thumb as it refuses to tap the space button..........an yup......its black. > > There is a memory of screaming like a little girl for about three minutes. > > I think I remember hopping around on one leg. > > And......something about the neighbors.......running toward my house. > > I remember an attempt to stop hopping and screaming. > > I remember a funny look on my wife's face. > > I remember wishing that I had stiffed some of my hospice client's morphine. > > Let's see... > > Oh yeah........I remember my wife wanting to heat up a paper clip to red and burn a hole in my person. > > I remember thinking about the burnt smell of finger nail and shooting blood.... > > I remember a lot more. > > Wanna hear it all? Number one: all of that is the past. thus, it is memory, or, to use the term you love, it is " conceptual. " Number two: everything you experience is you. everything you just recounted is of, from, and is you. Number three: you divide yourself up then put yourself together (make relationships between the parts you imagined). so, you manufacture a sense of time, and time manufactures a sense of you. you relate thumb, car door, hurt, pain, turning black, wife, morphine ... etc., etc. Number four: all of this dividing and putting together (relating) is imagined, is formulated, is constructed. Perhaps if you would look at " formulation " and " construction " rather than " conceptual overlay " this would be clear. " Concepts " are formulations. You can't have a formulation of all formulations, any more than you can have a concept that covers all concepts, or you can conceptualize a conceptual overlay and therefore be beyond it. It doesn't work like that. You are who you are. You are This. This is That. Since you don't like the word " you " or " me " or " self " ... There is only this wordless nothing, and all the words are this nothing, and all the formulations are nothing formulating itself. Formulating as a thumb, as pain, as screaming ... And no formulation ever attained an existence of its own, no matter how painful it may have gotten ... It is understandable that the most painful experience will seem to have generated the strongest sense of actuality. That is how experiences seem to be real, and that is why self is formulated around painful experiences retained in memory. -- D -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > That's a nice belief, BTW. > > > > " Hold onto it... as well as you can " . > > > > Probably won't be for more than a minute or two. > Thoughts are slippery little things aren't they? > > :-) > > I wasn't picking on you two. > > It's just that any theories about that true nature of something that exists only conceptually is laughable. > > It's like studying shadows. > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > > The same thing applies when the self denies the reality of the self. Apparently, you've missed how often you do this? > > > > > > > Might even have fallen away as a memory already, if I hadn't replied again. > > > > May the belief that is Toom, successfully exert its nonexistent volition over other beliefs. > > > > To Success! > > > > I raise my glass to ya! ;-) > Is that a real glass or a conceptual glass? > > > > :-0 The concept of conceptuality is sooooo important, isn't it? Has it ever occurred to you, that there is no such thing? Has it never occurred that the differentiation between reality and conceptuality, is conceptual? So the concept of " conceptuality " is bankrupt, is it not? Over and over saying that the conceptual isn't real, is just to idolize a particular concept about conceptuality, is it not? - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > > > That's a nice belief, BTW. > > > > > > " Hold onto it... as well as you can " . > > > > > > Probably won't be for more than a minute or two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are slippery little things aren't they? > > > > :-) > > > > I wasn't picking on you two. > > > > It's just that any theories about that true nature of something > > that exists only conceptually is laughable. > > > > It's like studying shadows. > > ... and that's what Toom is busy doing, eh? > > Studying shadows. > > It's laughable. > > So much time spent on these groups, picking apart what isn't there. > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within > > the assumption of time and then deny it. > > > > The same thing applies when the self denies the reality of the self. > > As Toom is constantly doing. > > I'm picking on you. > > No apologies for it, either. Tim didn't mean to say that, Toom. I apologize for Tim. Tim knows that he is speaking to himself, from his own experience, by projecting his notion of a " Toom. " I know this, because I've projected a " Tim " made up from my own experience, and I can therefore apologize for Tim. I have no concept of Dan, though. So, unfortunately, I can't apologize for him. Maybe someone else can make up a good apology for me, and the things that I do? And please don't tell me that there is no do-er. If you do that, I will have to apologize for you. - Dan - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > -toomba- > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > -geo- Yes one is aware of memory. Memory co-arises, co-constructs and co-defines with thought, experience, feeling, perception. A sense of reality to the co-construction, a sense of time, of duration to experience. Dissolves upon clear observation, clear awareness. Awareness is not of time, is not constructed, is nameless, cannot be remembered or recalled. I never named this. I never have thought about this. I can't recognize or remember this. Is. - Dan - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > > -toomba- > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > -geo- > > > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. > > > > toombaru You are making up the idea of a conceptual mind, manufacturing the idea that it is a " do-er " , so you then can shoot it down. There isn't any do-er, except conceptually, as an imaginary inference. You are involved in that very activity you critiqued ... .... and for one very good reason ... - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > > > > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > > > > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > > > > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Imaginarily related. > > > > > > One is thinking of the car door, and thinking of the thumb, and in thought, there is an assumed relation between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > > > > > Hey........wanna have a cup of coffee? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > How do you fail to see that " thumb slammed in door " is your " concept " as you put it? > > So, it is a concept that includes a lot of hurting sensation... it is still " concept " (that word you like to use). > > You fail to see this because you think you have a concept of conceptuality. > > But you don't really. > > > You think that something that hurts a lot must be more real than anything else. > > Yet you throw around terms like " identification " and " self " as if you have everything resolved and know what is so. > > > Look, for the sake of friendship I'll give it another useless try (don't worry, I enjoy failing): > > > The hurt is only as real as your sense of hurting is to you. > > > It is real enough to you as it happens. > > > It makes you scream. > > > Your thumb turns black. > > > You relate the thumb turning black to the car door slamming to the hurting. > > > None of this is any more real than you, the one who is hurting, who is relating the hurt to the slamming. > > > That you seem unable to grasp this is making me scream. > > > Soon my throat will turn black from the pain. > > > You see what you are doing to me????? > > > Cut it out!!!! > > > Get this fact right now. > > > You will never be more you than you are able to be you. > > And everything that depends on you sensing it, will never be more real than you are, as one who is sensing things. > > > > There isn't any time to think this over, to reason about it. > > > - Dan - > OK....so my dog Muggens shouldn't feel any pain if I slam his tail in the car door. Wheeeeet........wheeeet............come here ole fella. I'll let you know what happens. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > > > -toomba- > > > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > You are making up the idea of a conceptual mind, manufacturing the idea that it is a " do-er " , so you then can shoot it down. > > There isn't any do-er, except conceptually, as an imaginary inference. > > You are involved in that very activity you critiqued ... > > I am not involved in that. I AM that. Big difference....(in perspective). toombaru > ... and for one very good reason ... > > > - D - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Imaginarily related. > > > > > > > > One is thinking of the car door, and thinking of the thumb, and in thought, there is an assumed relation between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey........wanna have a cup of coffee? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > How do you fail to see that " thumb slammed in door " is your " concept " as you put it? > > > > So, it is a concept that includes a lot of hurting sensation... it is still " concept " (that word you like to use). > > > > You fail to see this because you think you have a concept of conceptuality. > > > > But you don't really. > > > > > > You think that something that hurts a lot must be more real than anything else. > > > > Yet you throw around terms like " identification " and " self " as if you have everything resolved and know what is so. > > > > > > Look, for the sake of friendship I'll give it another useless try (don't worry, I enjoy failing): > > > > > > The hurt is only as real as your sense of hurting is to you. > > > > > > It is real enough to you as it happens. > > > > > > It makes you scream. > > > > > > Your thumb turns black. > > > > > > You relate the thumb turning black to the car door slamming to the hurting. > > > > > > None of this is any more real than you, the one who is hurting, who is relating the hurt to the slamming. > > > > > > That you seem unable to grasp this is making me scream. > > > > > > Soon my throat will turn black from the pain. > > > > > > You see what you are doing to me????? > > > > > > Cut it out!!!! > > > > > > Get this fact right now. > > > > > > You will never be more you than you are able to be you. > > > > And everything that depends on you sensing it, will never be more real than you are, as one who is sensing things. > > > > > > > > There isn't any time to think this over, to reason about it. > > > > > > - Dan - > OK....so my dog Muggens shouldn't feel any pain if I slam his tail in the car door. > > > Wheeeeet........wheeeet............come here ole fella. > > > I'll let you know what happens. > > > toombaru You have completely missed my point. I'd reiterate, but I understand there is no use. You will continue to misunderstand, because you don't want to understand. You want to miss what this is. It's clear from what you're saying that you, your dog, the experience of pain your dog would feel, the interpretation that you have choice about what to do (slam or not slam the door on your dog), is real to you. No wonder you keep on slamming selves, because you are trying to escape your feeling of self existing in a perceptual reality in which you make choices and experience pain. You keep reiterating over and over how it's all a conceptual overlay, because you want some means to have a sense of a special insight, but you don't want to really lose the reality. You use pain as a means to " enforce " what is real to you. And what is being enforced is self - it doesn't matter what you call it -- it doesn't matter if you call it " the feeling of pain when a door slams on your finger. " It is real to you, and that is your you at that moment, which is a moment in memory. Yes, pain hurts. And that is why and how the self constructs around memories of pain, and why and how the feeling of volition gets interpreted (through attempts to avoid or inflict pain). Repeating " there is no self, there is no volition " over and over won't accomplish anything. The feeling of pain in memory and the feeling of pleasure in memory *is* what the sense of self is. One instant of understanding that *all of that* is memory, is freedom. The pain memories don't hold any point of attachment. The whole scenario of a being experiencing pain is understood as the vanishing memory that it is. There truly is no volition, because the past is over, and its sense of reality as memory cannot be held onto anywhere, there is no one holding it. No matter how seemingly real it is at the seeming moment. That seeming moment is always in the past. The actual present cannot fade, because it is not a memory, and therefore there aren't any contents of it. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my black thumb nail (car door) could talk......it would say: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whaaaaaaaaaaaat thaaaaaaaa? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's " supposed " to be as convincing as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If only it ever could be completely convincing, then something would really have an existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or so it would seem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb and the car door are related through time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Imaginarily related. > > > > > > > > > > One is thinking of the car door, and thinking of the thumb, and in thought, there is an assumed relation between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus H Horse Christ......that is bullshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thumb got slammed in the car door......and in time turned black. > > > > > > > > > > > > You and Dan are lost in some conceptual no-time loop. > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey........wanna have a cup of coffee? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > How do you fail to see that " thumb slammed in door " is your " concept " as you put it? > > > > > > So, it is a concept that includes a lot of hurting sensation... it is still " concept " (that word you like to use). > > > > > > You fail to see this because you think you have a concept of conceptuality. > > > > > > But you don't really. > > > > > > > > > You think that something that hurts a lot must be more real than anything else. > > > > > > Yet you throw around terms like " identification " and " self " as if you have everything resolved and know what is so. > > > > > > > > > Look, for the sake of friendship I'll give it another useless try (don't worry, I enjoy failing): > > > > > > > > > The hurt is only as real as your sense of hurting is to you. > > > > > > > > > It is real enough to you as it happens. > > > > > > > > > It makes you scream. > > > > > > > > > Your thumb turns black. > > > > > > > > > You relate the thumb turning black to the car door slamming to the hurting. > > > > > > > > > None of this is any more real than you, the one who is hurting, who is relating the hurt to the slamming. > > > > > > > > > That you seem unable to grasp this is making me scream. > > > > > > > > > Soon my throat will turn black from the pain. > > > > > > > > > You see what you are doing to me????? > > > > > > > > > Cut it out!!!! > > > > > > > > > Get this fact right now. > > > > > > > > > You will never be more you than you are able to be you. > > > > > > And everything that depends on you sensing it, will never be more real than you are, as one who is sensing things. > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't any time to think this over, to reason about it. > > > > > > > > > - Dan - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK....so my dog Muggens shouldn't feel any pain if I slam his tail in the car door. > > > > > > Wheeeeet........wheeeet............come here ole fella. > > > > > > I'll let you know what happens. > > > > > > toombaru > > > You have completely missed my point. > > I'd reiterate, but I understand there is no use. > > > You will continue to misunderstand, because you don't want to understand. > > You want to miss what this is. > > > It's clear from what you're saying that you, your dog, the experience of pain your dog would feel, the interpretation that you have choice about what to do (slam or not slam the door on your dog), is real to you. > > No wonder you keep on slamming selves, because you are trying to escape your feeling of self existing in a perceptual reality in which you make choices and experience pain. > > You keep reiterating over and over how it's all a conceptual overlay, because you want some means to have a sense of a special insight, but you don't want to really lose the reality. > > You use pain as a means to " enforce " what is real to you. > > And what is being enforced is self - it doesn't matter what you call it -- it doesn't matter if you call it " the feeling of pain when a door slams on your finger. " > > It is real to you, and that is your you at that moment, which is a moment in memory. > > Yes, pain hurts. > > And that is why and how the self constructs around memories of pain, and why and how the feeling of volition gets interpreted (through attempts to avoid or inflict pain). > > Repeating " there is no self, there is no volition " over and over won't accomplish anything. > > The feeling of pain in memory and the feeling of pleasure in memory *is* what the sense of self is. > > One instant of understanding that *all of that* is memory, is freedom. > > The pain memories don't hold any point of attachment. > > The whole scenario of a being experiencing pain is understood as the vanishing memory that it is. > > There truly is no volition, because the past is over, and its sense of reality as memory cannot be held onto anywhere, there is no one holding it. > > No matter how seemingly real it is at the seeming moment. > > That seeming moment is always in the past. > > The actual present cannot fade, because it is not a memory, and therefore there aren't any contents of it. > > - D - > And your nihilistic stance emerges within and pertains to the conceptual overlay......which never existed. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > To say that there is no such thing as time is to come from within the assumption of time and then deny it. > > > > -toomba- > > > > > > > > There is no time. What might seem as time is memory. Obvious. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only a conceptual mind is capable of manufacturing a concept and then denying its existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > You are making up the idea of a conceptual mind, manufacturing the idea that it is a " do-er " , so you then can shoot it down. > > > > There isn't any do-er, except conceptually, as an imaginary inference. > > > > You are involved in that very activity you critiqued ... > > > > I am not involved in that. > > I AM that. > > Big difference....(in perspective). > > > > > > toombaru > You are NOT that. The past is not. The conceptuality is not. The memory focus is not. Big difference ... So, yes, one is what one beholds. One is the perception perceived. Precisely because one is NOT that. Logic can't grasp this. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > And your nihilistic stance emerges within and pertains to the conceptual overlay......which never existed. > > > > toombaru That's fine with me. You can put it like that. It boils down to this: Everything I've said is unnecessary and meaningless. And I'm okay with that. Here goes my smiley face: ;-) - Doombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
