Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Hi Anna, Yes. I don't think that projection is the right word because it implies a projecting agency and a screen it is pojecting on. But at the moment I also don't know a better word. Werner Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > exactly W, > > I Am is the meditation, a life-long > projection.... > > ;-) > ar > - > Werner Woehr > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:20 AM > Re: Direct Awareness > > > Anders, > > JK never said such nonsense. It is your personal trip that awareness > is the active entity, that you are awareness. And you don't want to > let go that crap. > > And so you only read what you want to see and the result is that you > thoroughly misunderstood JK. > > Same with meditation: > > For JK meditation is something one IS and not someting one DOES in > order to reach a desired result like a quiet mind. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > I see what you mean. J. Krishnamurti said that awareness could use > > thought, knowledge and memory. But first one must enter that state. > > Otherwise one would just keep on going round and round in thought, > as > > you say. K said that an " insight " is needed into the whole structure > > of thought. > > > > al. > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > exactly W, > > I Am is the meditation, a life-long > projection.... > > ;-) > ar meditation is the state of being awake .... " a life-long projection " .....?... if you think that " nothingness " or " emptyness " can be " projected " ...?....... maybe the (moving) world (mind) is reflected on what IS....on changless Self but... " who " cares.....lol Regards and love Marc > - > Werner Woehr > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:20 AM > Re: Direct Awareness > > > Anders, > > JK never said such nonsense. It is your personal trip that awareness > is the active entity, that you are awareness. And you don't want to > let go that crap. > > And so you only read what you want to see and the result is that you > thoroughly misunderstood JK. > > Same with meditation: > > For JK meditation is something one IS and not someting one DOES in > order to reach a desired result like a quiet mind. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > I see what you mean. J. Krishnamurti said that awareness could use > > thought, knowledge and memory. But first one must enter that state. > > Otherwise one would just keep on going round and round in thought, > as > > you say. K said that an " insight " is needed into the whole structure > > of thought. > > > > al. > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 True, Marc, who cares ? This struggle about the right word is only caring for a easier communication, to avoid further misunderstandings but it won't change the thing itself. Werner Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > exactly W, > > > > I Am is the meditation, a life-long > > projection.... > > > > ;-) > > ar > > meditation is the state of being awake > ... " a life-long projection " .....?... > if you think that " nothingness " or " emptyness " can > be " projected " ...?....... > maybe the (moving) world (mind) is reflected on what IS....on > changless Self > > but... " who " cares.....lol > > Regards and love > > Marc > - > > Werner Woehr > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:20 AM > > Re: Direct Awareness > > > > > > Anders, > > > > JK never said such nonsense. It is your personal trip that > awareness > > is the active entity, that you are awareness. And you don't want > to > > let go that crap. > > > > And so you only read what you want to see and the result is that > you > > thoroughly misunderstood JK. > > > > Same with meditation: > > > > For JK meditation is something one IS and not someting one DOES > in > > order to reach a desired result like a quiet mind. > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > I see what you mean. J. Krishnamurti said that awareness could > use > > > thought, knowledge and memory. But first one must enter that > state. > > > Otherwise one would just keep on going round and round in > thought, > > as > > > you say. K said that an " insight " is needed into the whole > structure > > > of thought. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era " <n0ndual@w...> wrote: > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Is it possible to be aware directly, without awareness > first > > > getting > > > > > > trapped in thought? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, > > > > > > > > > > I heard, that right after one wakes up and before the world > arises > > > > in the consciousness there is that moment.. of pure awareness > > > without > > > > object.. > > > > > > > > > > Or in the gap between two thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > There is Ramana's Self.. to be found in there.. > > > > > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti called it meditation, I think. Not meditation > as in > > > > some kind of practice or method, but a state of meditation. > This > > > state > > > > is not without objects. As I understand it, meditation in this > sense > > > > is to be aware of all that is going on in a conflictless way. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > ...meditation is loosing body sense.... > > > just like the state of deep sleep.... > > > but meditation let one " experience " it in being awake.... > > > > > > a quite mind is necessary to meditate....to enter in > meditation.... > > > > > > ...the " world " appear in it's " conflicts " only....when there is > no > > > meditation....no quite mind.... > > > > > > consciousness is transformed..... > > > attitudes change.... > > > " views " change... > > > love is growing... > > > knowledge is becoming more pure.... > > > > > > ...and all this happen...in awareness of a spiritual soul.... > > > which " see " Oneness in all... > > > > > > Oneness of all souls.... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > JK used the word meditation in his own way. I don't think he meant > > that in meditation one loses body sense or thinking. In meditation > > thought is used when needed, but not all the time as in people's > > usually state of being. > > > > al. > > ...seem that there are many different " views " about " meditation " ... > i believe that (nearly) all have in common...that there have to be a > quite mind....to meditate > a restless mind (thoughts) can't realy enter in meditation.... > > yes....meditation is not an " usual state of being " ....i agree > > your definition let me think about a kind of " meditative state of > mind " ..... > > i remember one definition of Osho about meditation: > " meditation is a (very) quick waking up " > > this " waking up " description concerning meditation is, i believe, an > interesting point of view > > indead...it's necessary to " pass " all the sense organs and related > (dream-world) perceptions....means detach from even body and (ego) > mind.....to just Be....what one Is > > after a deep meditation...sometimes....it's even difficult to talk > few words.....the mind is completely absorbed in > Consciousness.....and nothing anymore else...and even no thoughts at > all > > the effect of " meditation " go deep....maybe it could be compared with > a " cleaning of (individual) soul " > > if your soul is " clean " .....means no more " individual " .... > filled up with light and love......constantly....and > permanent.....means realized > then sure....meditation techniques are not necessary > > wish a good " cleaning up " .... > > > Regards and love > > Marc I have only seen J. Krishnamurti use the word meditation as something that is not what is usually meant by that word. All other descriptions of meditation I have seen are different from his meaning. In K's definition, meditation is not a practice, nor a method, nor a system. That's prety much at odds with what we usually mean by the word meditation. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Anders, > > JK never said such nonsense. It is your personal trip that awareness > is the active entity, that you are awareness. And you don't want to > let go that crap. > > And so you only read what you want to see and the result is that you > thoroughly misunderstood JK. > > Same with meditation: > > For JK meditation is something one IS and not someting one DOES in > order to reach a desired result like a quiet mind. > > Werner In this audio clip with David Bohm, K says that he thinks the word " attention " is better than " awareness " (although not attention as some kind of concentration or effort). K uses the word " mind " to describe what I called awareness. So you could be right, he maybe never used the word " awareness " in this way. http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x & type=audio & cid=830620 & nav=td & nid=8\ 30620 & menu= I have never said that K uses the word meditation for something that one does. Quite the opposite. al. > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > I see what you mean. J. Krishnamurti said that awareness could use > > thought, knowledge and memory. But first one must enter that state. > > Otherwise one would just keep on going round and round in thought, > as > > you say. K said that an " insight " is needed into the whole structure > > of thought. > > > > al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era " <n0ndual@w...> wrote: > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Is it possible to be aware directly, without awareness > > first > > > > getting > > > > > > > trapped in thought? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, > > > > > > > > > > > > I heard, that right after one wakes up and before the world > > arises > > > > > in the consciousness there is that moment.. of pure awareness > > > > without > > > > > object.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or in the gap between two thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is Ramana's Self.. to be found in there.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti called it meditation, I think. Not meditation > > as in > > > > > some kind of practice or method, but a state of meditation. > > This > > > > state > > > > > is not without objects. As I understand it, meditation in this > > sense > > > > > is to be aware of all that is going on in a conflictless way. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > ...meditation is loosing body sense.... > > > > just like the state of deep sleep.... > > > > but meditation let one " experience " it in being awake.... > > > > > > > > a quite mind is necessary to meditate....to enter in > > meditation.... > > > > > > > > ...the " world " appear in it's " conflicts " only....when there is > > no > > > > meditation....no quite mind.... > > > > > > > > consciousness is transformed..... > > > > attitudes change.... > > > > " views " change... > > > > love is growing... > > > > knowledge is becoming more pure.... > > > > > > > > ...and all this happen...in awareness of a spiritual soul.... > > > > which " see " Oneness in all... > > > > > > > > Oneness of all souls.... > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > JK used the word meditation in his own way. I don't think he meant > > > that in meditation one loses body sense or thinking. In meditation > > > thought is used when needed, but not all the time as in people's > > > usually state of being. > > > > > > al. > > > > ...seem that there are many different " views " about " meditation " ... > > i believe that (nearly) all have in common...that there have to be a > > quite mind....to meditate > > a restless mind (thoughts) can't realy enter in meditation.... > > > > yes....meditation is not an " usual state of being " ....i agree > > > > your definition let me think about a kind of " meditative state of > > mind " ..... > > > > i remember one definition of Osho about meditation: > > " meditation is a (very) quick waking up " > > > > this " waking up " description concerning meditation is, i believe, an > > interesting point of view > > > > indead...it's necessary to " pass " all the sense organs and related > > (dream-world) perceptions....means detach from even body and (ego) > > mind.....to just Be....what one Is > > > > after a deep meditation...sometimes....it's even difficult to talk > > few words.....the mind is completely absorbed in > > Consciousness.....and nothing anymore else...and even no thoughts at > > all > > > > the effect of " meditation " go deep....maybe it could be compared with > > a " cleaning of (individual) soul " > > > > if your soul is " clean " .....means no more " individual " .... > > filled up with light and love......constantly....and > > permanent.....means realized > > then sure....meditation techniques are not necessary > > > > wish a good " cleaning up " .... > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > Marc > > > I have only seen J. Krishnamurti use the word meditation as something > that is not what is usually meant by that word. All other descriptions > of meditation I have seen are different from his meaning. In K's > definition, meditation is not a practice, nor a method, nor a system. > That's prety much at odds with what we usually mean by the word > meditation. > > al. .....why trying to " understand " the meaning of " meditation " from somebody...who already has his (own) " idea " about.....? as far i know....J. Krishnamurti didn't follow any " teacher or Guru or Master... " ...?..... this seem to be the path for " others " to....i mean, without Guru... i'm surprised that you, this " convinced indiviDualist " , try to follow the words of a Guru (J. Krishnamurti)...... but ok.....i wish you find peace....with, or without Guru Regards and love Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era " <n0ndual@w...> > wrote: > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Is it possible to be aware directly, without awareness > > > first > > > > > getting > > > > > > > > trapped in thought? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I heard, that right after one wakes up and before the > world > > > arises > > > > > > in the consciousness there is that moment.. of pure > awareness > > > > > without > > > > > > object.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or in the gap between two thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is Ramana's Self.. to be found in there.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti called it meditation, I think. Not > meditation > > > as in > > > > > > some kind of practice or method, but a state of meditation. > > > This > > > > > state > > > > > > is not without objects. As I understand it, meditation in > this > > > sense > > > > > > is to be aware of all that is going on in a conflictless > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > ...meditation is loosing body sense.... > > > > > just like the state of deep sleep.... > > > > > but meditation let one " experience " it in being awake.... > > > > > > > > > > a quite mind is necessary to meditate....to enter in > > > meditation.... > > > > > > > > > > ...the " world " appear in it's " conflicts " only....when there > is > > > no > > > > > meditation....no quite mind.... > > > > > > > > > > consciousness is transformed..... > > > > > attitudes change.... > > > > > " views " change... > > > > > love is growing... > > > > > knowledge is becoming more pure.... > > > > > > > > > > ...and all this happen...in awareness of a spiritual soul.... > > > > > which " see " Oneness in all... > > > > > > > > > > Oneness of all souls.... > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > JK used the word meditation in his own way. I don't think he > meant > > > > that in meditation one loses body sense or thinking. In > meditation > > > > thought is used when needed, but not all the time as in people's > > > > usually state of being. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > ...seem that there are many different " views " > about " meditation " ... > > > i believe that (nearly) all have in common...that there have to > be a > > > quite mind....to meditate > > > a restless mind (thoughts) can't realy enter in meditation.... > > > > > > yes....meditation is not an " usual state of being " ....i agree > > > > > > your definition let me think about a kind of " meditative state of > > > mind " ..... > > > > > > i remember one definition of Osho about meditation: > > > " meditation is a (very) quick waking up " > > > > > > this " waking up " description concerning meditation is, i believe, > an > > > interesting point of view > > > > > > indead...it's necessary to " pass " all the sense organs and > related > > > (dream-world) perceptions....means detach from even body and > (ego) > > > mind.....to just Be....what one Is > > > > > > after a deep meditation...sometimes....it's even difficult to > talk > > > few words.....the mind is completely absorbed in > > > Consciousness.....and nothing anymore else...and even no thoughts > at > > > all > > > > > > the effect of " meditation " go deep....maybe it could be compared > with > > > a " cleaning of (individual) soul " > > > > > > if your soul is " clean " .....means no more " individual " .... > > > filled up with light and love......constantly....and > > > permanent.....means realized > > > then sure....meditation techniques are not necessary > > > > > > wish a good " cleaning up " .... > > > > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > I have only seen J. Krishnamurti use the word meditation as > something > > that is not what is usually meant by that word. All other > descriptions > > of meditation I have seen are different from his meaning. In K's > > definition, meditation is not a practice, nor a method, nor a > system. > > That's prety much at odds with what we usually mean by the word > > meditation. > > > > al. > > ....why trying to " understand " the meaning of " meditation " from > somebody...who already has his (own) " idea " about.....? > > as far i know....J. Krishnamurti didn't follow any " teacher or Guru > or Master... " ...?..... > > this seem to be the path for " others " to....i mean, without Guru... > > i'm surprised that you, this " convinced indiviDualist " , try to > follow the words of a Guru (J. Krishnamurti)...... > > but ok.....i wish you find peace....with, or without Guru > > Regards and love > > Marc Teachers and gurus can be of great help, I think. It is also interesting to have own ideas. My latest idea about evolution, for example, is that the universe is a state being able to observe itself. This means that it also observes itself observing itself... ALL THE TIME. The present moment is like Russian dolls; one inside the other, inside the other. The largest doll is the present moment, but it contains all the previous moments within itself as smaller and smaller dolls. The next moment will be an even bigger doll, because that doll observes all the other dolls into being, so it is therefore more complex; hence the arrow of time and evolution. The choice required to select a doll that can do all this as the next moment is an extremely, extremely, extremely difficult task of which human beings are only a part of. This is not only intelligence in action. It is infinite intelligence in action. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Oh heavens help, Anders, as soon you got some attention you feel compelled to tell your latest ideas, but they aren't better or more interesting than all those before. But don't bother just go on, you will become famous as being the living climax of boredom which evolution ever created in this universe. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Teachers and gurus can be of great help, I think. It is also > interesting to have own ideas. > > My latest idea about evolution, for example, is that the universe is a > state being able to observe itself. This means that it also observes > itself observing itself... ALL THE TIME. The present moment is like > Russian dolls; one inside the other, inside the other. The largest > doll is the present moment, but it contains all the previous moments > within itself as smaller and smaller dolls. The next moment will be an > even bigger doll, because that doll observes all the other dolls into > being, so it is therefore more complex; hence the arrow of time and > evolution. The choice required to select a doll that can do all this > as the next moment is an extremely, extremely, extremely difficult > task of which human beings are only a part of. This is not only > intelligence in action. It is infinite intelligence in action. > > al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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