Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Why do we babble on about no thing? > > Lewis > > P: Cause we have to! > And you'll have to, > until you don't. >L: I prefer, cause I am able to! >And I will do so > until I am unable. P: Can't argue with preferences, but I doubt you just do it because you can. Think of how many things you could do, that you don't. It's more like most people here have spent many years acquiring all this knowledge, practicing, thinking about these things. Billions of neurons have been invested on this pursue. Those billions of cells demand to be used. That's why is so difficult to quit smoking cold turkey. Even when the nicotine addiction clears, there are all those billions of neuron connections which revolve around the ritual of smoking. It takes at least a year or more to dismantle those connections. And then no one can tempt us into smoking again. So, yeah, it will take a hell of a lot of motivation to stop reading and posting. And why should we? It's fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > Why do we babble on about no thing? > > > > Lewis > > > > P: Cause we have to! > > And you'll have to, > > until you don't. > > >L: I prefer, cause I am able to! > >And I will do so > > until I am unable. > > P: Can't argue with preferences, but > I doubt you just do it because > you can. Think of how many things you > could do, that you don't. L: That is correct one cannot argue with preferences. But it is an interesting topic to me so, I will go on with it as I can do so. That sort of stuff above, I place two categories in my lifestyle. The first is the want category. You know, I want that or this. Like I want to fly through the air, walk through walls, have all the..... have JP leave me alone, you know childish stuff that has generally nothing to do with what I am about, just wishful thinking, at least that is what it is for me now. The other category is the could do and could of category. This is closer to what I am because it the stuff within my capabilities and incapabilites to perform. For example, running a mid size corporation, buildling web sites, organizing conferences, setting up electronic catlogs and networking for small libraries and doing educational consulting, lecturing anthropology so on. I could do any of these for a living. They are all possibilities. I could do them. I could of done these versus what I am doing now. They are dreams. Yet what I actually do is what I can do in the moment, in the set of conditions I am in with the capabilities and incapabilities present. I go with the flow of it responding as I go along. Now, when conditions change, I am confronted with differences that must be met in some way. And what ends up being done is responding to these changed conditions in the way that I can at the moment. So even though there is a sense of choice, that I choose to do this and not to do that, close examination shows in my experience that I do in accordance with the weight of all the conditions I am in and their relation to my capabilities and incapabilties that allows my response. Sometimes I can make sense of what I am doing, I am just doing it. I have lived forcibly before, willing my way to this end or that mentally or physically as it went. I always went back to what I am at base. So I stay with what I can do at the moment being ready and alert as it goes. Like a particular kind of animal in its environment. > > It's more like most people here have > spent many years acquiring all this > knowledge, practicing, thinking about these > things. Billions of neurons have been invested > on this pursue. Those billions of cells > demand to be used. > That's why is so difficult to quit smoking > cold turkey. Even when the nicotine addiction > clears, there are all those billions of neuron > connections which revolve around the ritual of > smoking. It takes at least a year or more to > dismantle those connections. And then no one > can tempt us into smoking again. > > So, yeah, it will take a hell of a lot of motivation > to stop reading and posting. And why should we? > It's fun! L: Posting can end easily for me as soon as conditions change in one way or another and it will end as abruptly as it started as such things are with me. It is always pouring into something until it is exhausted, so I do not try to stop it, this pouring into is what I do amd am. I have the time, logistical freedom and abililty to do it. I can do it, so I do and it is interesting to me for all those reasons I always give. When I am unable to do it anymore, it will end. Could do and could of done are dreams and there is no interest in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Hi Lewis, not to interrupt this dialogue, but I happened to lurk. In any case, I can see what I needed, such as it is. So we can close out the " permeable walls " thread. Thanks for a good run. You're a good sport to put up with me and you're a man of keen intellect. I'll be in and out, let me know if anything else comes up. best JP Lewis Burgess wrote: > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > Why do we babble on about no thing? > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > P: Cause we have to! > > > And you'll have to, > > > until you don't. > > > > >L: I prefer, cause I am able to! > > >And I will do so > > > until I am unable. > > > > P: Can't argue with preferences, but > > I doubt you just do it because > > you can. Think of how many things you > > could do, that you don't. > > L: That is correct one cannot argue with preferences. > But it is an interesting topic to me so, I will go on > with it as I can do so. That sort of stuff above, I > place two categories in my lifestyle. The first is the > want category. You know, I want that or this. Like I want > to fly through the air, walk through walls, have all the..... > have JP leave me alone, you know childish stuff that has > generally nothing to do with what I am about, just wishful > thinking, at least that is what it is for me now. > > The other category is the could do and could of category. This > is closer to what I am because it the stuff within my capabilities > and incapabilites to perform. For example, running a mid size > corporation, buildling web sites, organizing conferences, setting up > electronic catlogs and networking for small libraries and doing > educational consulting, lecturing anthropology so on. I could do any > of these for a living. They are all possibilities. I could do them. I > could of done these versus what I am doing now. They are dreams. Yet > what I actually do is what I can do in the moment, in the set of > conditions I am in with the capabilities and incapabilities present. I > go with the flow of it responding as I go along. > > Now, when conditions change, I am confronted with differences that > must be met in some way. And what ends up being done is responding to > these changed conditions in the way that I can at the moment. So even > though there is a sense of choice, that I choose to do this and not to > do that, close examination shows in my experience that I do in > accordance with the weight of all the conditions I am in and their > relation to my capabilities and incapabilties that allows my response. > Sometimes I can make sense of what I am doing, I am just doing it. I > have lived forcibly before, willing my way to this end or that > mentally or physically as it went. I always went back to what I am at > base. So I stay with what I can do at the moment being ready and alert > as it goes. Like a particular kind of animal in its environment. > > > > > > It's more like most people here have > > spent many years acquiring all this > > knowledge, practicing, thinking about these > > things. Billions of neurons have been invested > > on this pursue. Those billions of cells > > demand to be used. > > That's why is so difficult to quit smoking > > cold turkey. Even when the nicotine addiction > > clears, there are all those billions of neuron > > connections which revolve around the ritual of > > smoking. It takes at least a year or more to > > dismantle those connections. And then no one > > can tempt us into smoking again. > > > > So, yeah, it will take a hell of a lot of motivation > > to stop reading and posting. And why should we? > > It's fun! > > L: Posting can end easily for me as soon as conditions change in one > way or another and it will end as abruptly as it started as such > things are with me. It is always pouring into something until it is > exhausted, so I do not try to stop it, this pouring into is what I do > amd am. I have the time, logistical freedom and abililty to do it. I > can do it, so I do and it is interesting to me for all those reasons I > always give. When I am unable to do it anymore, it will end. Could do > and could of done are dreams and there is no interest in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " johnmp_nr " <johnmp_nr> wrote: > Hi Lewis, not to interrupt this dialogue, but I happened to lurk. In > any case, I can see what I needed, such as it is. So we can close > out the " permeable walls " thread. Lewis. Ok. It is closed. > > Thanks for a good run. You're a good sport to put up with me and > you're a man of keen intellect. > > I'll be in and out, let me know if anything else comes up. > > best > JP Lewis: Ok. Now what are you trying to do slight me as you go out? And let me wax on and recommend a few items. In analytics of the type done here, the conscious/aware part of living is a superficial aspect. Language, word, meaning, and all the many abstractions made in speaking, writing, communicating, etc are all products related to nonconsciousness or implicit awareness, memory, thought, perception, imagination, emotion, assumptions, beliefs, etc. all of which happen below awareness and beyond any such to no thing. These emergent products, when agreed upon, form conventional reality. This includes the perception of what most consider to be a physical reality. The sun appears to circle the earth without fail. This is an optical illusion that cannot be dissipatd by whim or conscious effort and it is illusion that is real for billions of human appearances that depend on it to guide their daily activities. So much else is the same as any neuroscientist, quantum physicist, etc. will inform or one's experience tells. So what we have in word and meanings and perceptions and the like are simply constructed without knowing how they are and these are then examined and abstracted and made into narrative form, into stories of one sort or another, which is for me mythopoetics. Now this has nothing to do with real and unreal in any absolute sense but with constructed formations that emerge from nonconsciousness or implicit consciousness. Real and unreal are constructions as well. All of it is. Aristolean logic has no weight or use in this and cannot account for the apparent paradox and contradiction that everywhere exists in functioning life as such logic seeks truth in a form that tries to eliminate contradiction and paradox that are inevitable parts of living and meaning construction, language and communication, religion and science. Such logic is " stupid " in that it cannot accept parardox and contradiction. It was made to eliminate it. More useful for living is using as a tool, as one would use Aristolean logic, the analytic philosophy of Nargajuna with its use of the dependent origination, sunyata and the tetralemma to deal with conventional reality of all and any type. In the use of the tetralemma, it is found that all the possible ways of conceiving, asserting (something is), denying (something is not), syncretising (something is and something is not), doubting (neither something is nor something is not), are partial. In this sense, one cannot arrive at ultimate meanings or truths in conventional reality since settling on any of these allows the other to arise as its contradiction, opposition or as paradox. What you end up with are mere preferences for this or that construction over that or this construction. There is no ultimate truth in any of these conceiving possibilities and mental constructions made from them. All express a partialty and all together were seen to account for the whole even though this is not the case in Nagarjuna's philosophy since he had a soteriological motive which focused his attention to construct an ultimate reality left over and pointed to him and the Buddha while immolating Buddhism in the sunyata (In my disposable metaphor, I have incorporated the tetralemmic positions and that which the tetralemma assumes, but does not say). Such grasping and clinging to one or another or two of the four and so one is a source of 'suffering'(however that can be said to be) and stupidity as in slow to learn or understand, in not being able to grasp all possibilities and to see them all as constructions. Not grasping any of these constructions as final but as the playthings and tools that they are, all these possibilities come and go as a flow each in time and use. So philosophies, metaphors, verbal thoughts, word meanings and words do not matter in the end. We can use them and let them go as it goes as we can or, if you wish, as we prefer. See Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika. http://www.sharpham-trust.org/verses_from_the_centre.htm#Investigation%20of%20Vi\ ews So those limiting their dwelling to that of living in words and perceptions that are constructed unknowingly from phenomena (which is also a construction) are apt to think that it is the way it is without knowing or exploring origins, not of words and their meanings, philosophies and such etc., which is simply a circle of words examining words, a search through all the knoweldge available in the lexicon of languages and knowledge disciplines, but of their inability to know at all, that is, to know that they cannot know how they manage to do any thing. This lies in the nonconscious realm and in that that is beyond nonconsciousness. So their are no arguments to be proven, that can be proven final or ultimate. For all is moot, open for discussion and negotiation, depending on experience, preference, belief, assumptions and other things like that. We can talk about stuff in conventional reality as explorations and creations and we cannot impose or assume that one view supercedes all others. That is simply mistaking preference for one view as the absolute truth and one can easily see where that leads. In being open, we are free to roam the many universes created, chained to none. You can say that this is apreference and it would be correct. It is one way of multitudes available and has no special place at all among those multitudes. I posed to you that you do not know and cannot know the origins of how we do what we do in any way without using post hoc inference and words and such. And since there are many ways to conceive it as in the tetralemma we get a multitude of views with not one cutting to the quick, including this one. This is forever out of your reach as it is mine or any one. This is not mumbo jumbo or some religious philosophical prattle. It simply cannot be done by me. The inability to recognize this inability and to live intimately with and accept this inability is......you make it up. If you can overcome it it will fantastic. Next the majority of living is nonconscious and to focus on the conscious is to live where life is not most prominent. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ See the following links to get some introductory ideas of how the nonconscious is cureently conceptualized, of how much is going on below awareness, how it contributes to verbal thought and speech and behavior, and the sense of choice and preference and that the focus on awareness/consciousness and being aware of being aware can be a misdirect for understanding. This demonstrates the nonconscious. After this is that " below " this. The Rediscovery of the Unconscious http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/rediscovery.htm Automaticity of Action, Psychology of http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/pdfs/Wheatley & Wegner.pdf The Unbearable Automaticity of Being http://www.law.berkeley.edu/institutes/law_econ/workingpapers/PDFpapers/jabargh.\ pdf ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the above inability to know origins is not so, demonstrate that it is so. Perhaps you will be the first. If you can do it, I will be your first student to learn your way. Till this day, I have not found a single one that can do so. All fall mute to silence or For some it is in frustrating because they are slow to learn and understand, and there is always someway they think to get at " it " and so there is endless effort getting " it. " For those who think they have arrived, they point and point and point to words and meanings and the listeners rarely get it because they are not clearly instructed in the how it can't be got, they are just told it can't be got and there is nothing to get or do and they do not even know what they got and so cannot say it or do not say it for the power it gives them to control others who are seeking. For those who fall into the inability by chance and remain in it, are in awe and wonder and hilarity of it all and enjoy life free from seeking ultimate answers.....not knowing how it happened..... For those who just go to it, face it squarely and see that they are helpless before it surrender and continue on in their helplessness and live life as it suits them and their understandings. For those who....... For those who....... You probably know all of this already and do not need it. I did not assume you did not and thought it would be a addendum to the whole thing. Of course, it is rejectable. It has been consistently rejected. But it does not matter. There are many more things to explore and to talk about in the vastness of the universes we inhabit. This is just one thing among many others things. And the latter sentence is not safeguard to protect a self or some other dainty, diaphanous construction. In a way it is a warning. Caveat emptor. This kind of stuff may make you disturbed or nuts. Lewis > > Lewis Burgess wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > Why do we babble on about no thing? > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > P: Cause we have to! > > > > And you'll have to, > > > > until you don't. > > > > > > >L: I prefer, cause I am able to! > > > >And I will do so > > > > until I am unable. > > > > > > P: Can't argue with preferences, but > > > I doubt you just do it because > > > you can. Think of how many things you > > > could do, that you don't. > > > > L: That is correct one cannot argue with preferences. > > But it is an interesting topic to me so, I will go on > > with it as I can do so. That sort of stuff above, I > > place two categories in my lifestyle. The first is the > > want category. You know, I want that or this. Like I want > > to fly through the air, walk through walls, have all the..... > > have JP leave me alone, you know childish stuff that has > > generally nothing to do with what I am about, just wishful > > thinking, at least that is what it is for me now. > > > > The other category is the could do and could of category. This > > is closer to what I am because it the stuff within my capabilities > > and incapabilites to perform. For example, running a mid size > > corporation, buildling web sites, organizing conferences, setting > > up > > electronic catlogs and networking for small libraries and doing > > educational consulting, lecturing anthropology so on. I could do > > any > > of these for a living. They are all possibilities. I could do > > them. I could of done these versus what I am doing now. They are > > dreams. Yet what I actually do is what I can do in the moment, in > > the set of conditions I am in with the capabilities and > > incapabilities present. I go with the flow of it responding as I > > go along. > > > > Now, when conditions change, I am confronted with differences that > > must be met in some way. And what ends up being done is responding > > to > > these changed conditions in the way that I can at the moment. So > > even > > though there is a sense of choice, that I choose to do this and > > not to > > do that, close examination shows in my experience that I do in > > accordance with the weight of all the conditions I am in and their > > relation to my capabilities and incapabilties that allows my > > response. > > Sometimes I can make sense of what I am doing, I am just doing it. > > I > > have lived forcibly before, willing my way to this end or that > > mentally or physically as it went. I always went back to what I am > > at > > base. So I stay with what I can do at the moment being ready and > > alert > > as it goes. Like a particular kind of animal in its environment. > > > > > > > > > > It's more like most people here have > > > spent many years acquiring all this > > > knowledge, practicing, thinking about these > > > things. Billions of neurons have been invested > > > on this pursue. Those billions of cells > > > demand to be used. > > > That's why is so difficult to quit smoking > > > cold turkey. Even when the nicotine addiction > > > clears, there are all those billions of neuron > > > connections which revolve around the ritual of > > > smoking. It takes at least a year or more to > > > dismantle those connections. And then no one > > > can tempt us into smoking again. > > > > > > So, yeah, it will take a hell of a lot of motivation > > > to stop reading and posting. And why should we? > > > It's fun! > > > > L: Posting can end easily for me as soon as conditions change in > > one > > way or another and it will end as abruptly as it started as such > > things are with me. It is always pouring into something until it > > is > > exhausted, so I do not try to stop it, this pouring into is what I > > do > > amd am. I have the time, logistical freedom and abililty to do it. > > I > > can do it, so I do and it is interesting to me for all those > > reasons I > > always give. When I am unable to do it anymore, it will end. Could > > do > > and could of done are dreams and there is no interest in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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