Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 all three of these are from the same soil. zen did not survive in india. tantra did but in a grossly misunderstood form. advaita did flourish in india, but it became " dry knowledge " . its exponents would just go around saying " this is a dream " etc. the tantrics would laugh at them and call them escapists. these philosophies have affected the evelotion of eastern cultures. india's culture, in particular, devoid of the vigour of tantra and the insight and compassion of zen, became overly philosophical. in india you will find swamis expounding volumes on compassion and enlightenment, but will rarely express it in their lives. and so is india of today - with hi-tech, and lot of wealth, but starving people and squalor at the same time. because eventually the country hides its escapism behind " this is all a dream " . one swami was expounding " this is all dream " in banaras. suddenly a crazed bull ran into the bazaar and everyone ran for their lives. so did the swami. when someone asked him why he ran if it was all a dream, he said that he hadn't actually, it was just a dream. the mind is clever. the heart thirsts for the innocent truth, not clever words. the buddha has perfected not only awareness, but compassion as well. any two bit lawyer can spin words. the buddha was lured by clever brahmins into debate, but he did not enter into it. the buddha said " there is suffering. and there is a way to end this suffering " . he did not say " this is a dream, and your suffering is an illusion " . even if it is all a dream, and the rope has been confused to be the snake, the fear and suffering in the dream is real. advaita could not come up with an equivalent of the bodhisatva. even if it did (there are so many treatises on advaita, one never knows), it was not commonly taught. ramana practised 20 years in a cave after his awakening, to return and help people on the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > >the buddha said " there is suffering. and there is a way to end this suffering " . he did not say " this is a dream, and your suffering is an illusion " . G: Amen to that. This is why non-duality can be just another form of escapism. Albeit a very self righteous one. The focus on illusion is rather irrelevent and buddha new that. As Toombaru asked, " how's that working for ya? " The buddha noticed " that " wasn't working at all and found the noble middle way while others continued to debate the endless topic about whether or not the bull was real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Hi Guys, >the buddha said " there is suffering. and there is a way to end this suffering " . he did not say " this is a dream, and your suffering is an illusion " . G: Amen to that. This is why non-duality can be just another form of escapism. Albeit a very self righteous one. The focus on illusion is rather irrelevent and buddha new that. As Toombaru asked, " how's that working for ya? " The buddha noticed " that " wasn't working at all and found the noble middle way while others continued to debate the endless topic about whether or not the bull was real. ----------------------- J: Buddhadharma focuses on illusion, waking up TO the dream. This theme runs through 2500 years of Buddhism in all schools of Buddhism. " Suppose that a man who is not blind were to behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they were driving along; and he should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining them, however,they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. In exactly the same way does the monk behold all corporeal phenomena... feelings...perceptions...states of consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future...far or near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal, unsubstantial. " (S.XXII.95) The five Groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick. (S.XXII) ---------------- As for debate, thw Buddha was endlessly debating, the Pali Canon is full of debates. Debate and Buddhist logic to do with extreme views etc. is alive and well, for over 1000 years with the Tibetans. A student of Madhyamika is told what splendid debaters Indian sages are and that the Buddhist student better work hard and be awake. The Indian Sages are greatly honored by Buddhists. The Naths, Buddhist Trantrikas and Dzogchenpas practiced together as yogis will, without the labels. What the Buddha did NOT do is theorize. He OBSERVED. INVESTIGATED. ----------------- " The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has seen what corporeality is, and how it arises and passes away. He has seen what feeling...perception...mental formations... consciousness are, and how they arise and pass away, Therefore I say that the Perfect One has won complete deliverance though the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection and casting out of all imaginings and conjectures, of all inclination to the vain- glory of 'I' and 'Mine'. (M.2) ----------- All conditioned dharmas are like dreams, like illusions, like bubbles, like shadows, like dew, like lightening, and all of them should be contemplated in this way. --Diamond Sutra -------------- Ultimately, deluded thoughts cannot be found. As they arise and subside simultaneously, like drawings on water, they have no trule existent arising, enduring, or ceasing as actual events. However, when you are confused about their abiding nature, they seem to be truly real, But, when you recognize them for what they are, you see that they automatically subside and settle without your need to do anything. --Dudjom Rinpoche ------------------- With undistracted, utterly free awareness, nakedly place your mind in the illusory-like nature of appearances without inhibiting their arising. --Lochen Dharma Shri ----------------- If a thought arises, observe that which is arising; If no thoughts arise, observe that calm state. Both moments are equally void. ------- The nature of everything is open, empty and naked like the sky. Luminous emptiness, without center of circumferance: the pure, naked Rig.pa dawns, without center or circumferance. --Padmasambhava ------------------- Kusan Sunim:The Dharma of nonduality is the very Buddha dharma itself, What is meant by nonduality? It means that fundamentally there is no coming and going, no birth or death, no being a man or a woman, no being an ordinary person or an accomplished one, and no nearness or distance. Chinul expanding: Therefore one should illumine and examine one's mind long after the enlightenment: if deluded thoughts suddenly arise, one should not follow them but reduce them until one reaches non-action (wu-wei, Suchness). Only then will one have reached the final realm. It is precisely this that is called the act of " cow-tending " by all men of good learning in the world. -------------- The sage has no connection whatsoever with action, since he has no idea of accepting or giving up. Therefore, through constant engrossment on the Brahman (reality-before-it-is-named), do away with your superimposition of ideas and concepts upon experience. --Crest-Jewel of Discrimination, by Shankaracharya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 G: There is a delicate balance. Buddha called it the noble middle way. When the pendulum swings too far in the direction of focusing only on the illusion very little is gained. It becomes like a wheel spinning round and round. Conversely, when the pendulum swings too far in the other direction focusing only on the reality very little is gained. Again, it becomes like a wheel spinning endlessly -- which is why buddha recognized both aspects as being part of the whole and walked the middle way to find a very different view of the experience. ~*~ G. Nisargadatta , Insight <insight@s...> wrote: > Hi Guys, > > >the buddha said " there is suffering. and there is a way to end this > suffering " . he did not say " this is a dream, and your suffering is an > illusion " . > > > G: Amen to that. This is why non-duality can be just another form > of escapism. Albeit a very self righteous one. The focus on > illusion is rather irrelevent and buddha new that. As Toombaru > asked, " how's that working for ya? " The buddha noticed " that " > wasn't working at all and found the noble middle way while others > continued to debate the endless topic about whether or not the bull > was real. > > ----------------------- > > > > J: Buddhadharma focuses on illusion, waking up TO the dream. This theme > runs through 2500 years of Buddhism in all schools of Buddhism. > > > " Suppose that a man who is not blind were to behold the many > bubbles on the Ganges as they were driving along; and he should watch > them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining them, > however,they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. > In exactly the same way does the monk behold all corporeal phenomena... > feelings...perceptions...states of consciousness, whether they be > of the past, present or future...far or near. And he watches them > and examines them carefully; and after carefully examining them, they > appear to him empty, unreal, unsubstantial. " (S.XXII.95) > > > The five Groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, > a bubble, a mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring > trick. (S.XXII) > > ---------------- > > > As for debate, thw Buddha was endlessly debating, the Pali Canon > is full of debates. Debate and Buddhist logic to do with extreme > views etc. is alive and well, for over 1000 years with the Tibetans. > A student of Madhyamika is told what splendid debaters Indian sages > are and that the Buddhist student better work hard and be awake. > The Indian Sages are greatly honored by Buddhists. > > The Naths, Buddhist Trantrikas and Dzogchenpas practiced together > as yogis will, without the labels. > > What the Buddha did NOT do is theorize. He OBSERVED. INVESTIGATED. > > ----------------- > > > " The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One > has seen what corporeality is, and how it arises and passes away. > He has seen what feeling...perception...mental formations... > consciousness are, and how they arise and pass away, Therefore > I say that the Perfect One has won complete deliverance though the > extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection and casting out > of all imaginings and conjectures, of all inclination to the vain- > glory of 'I' and 'Mine'. (M.2) > > ----------- > > All conditioned dharmas > > are like dreams, like illusions, > > like bubbles, like shadows, > > like dew, like lightening, > > and all of them should be contemplated in this way. > > --Diamond Sutra > > -------------- > > Ultimately, deluded thoughts cannot be found. > As they arise and subside simultaneously, like > drawings on water, they have no trule existent > arising, enduring, or ceasing as actual events. However, > when you are confused about their abiding nature, > they seem to be truly real, But, when you recognize > them for what they are, you see that they automatically > subside and settle without your need to do anything. > --Dudjom Rinpoche > > ------------------- > > With undistracted, utterly free awareness, nakedly > place your mind in the illusory-like nature of > appearances without inhibiting their arising. > --Lochen Dharma Shri > > ----------------- > > If a thought arises, > observe that which is arising; > If no thoughts arise, > observe that calm state. > Both moments are equally void. > > ------- > > The nature of everything is > open, empty and naked like the sky. > Luminous emptiness, > without center of circumferance: > the pure, naked Rig.pa dawns, > without center or circumferance. > --Padmasambhava > > ------------------- > > Kusan Sunim:The Dharma of nonduality is the very Buddha > dharma itself, What is meant by nonduality? > It means that fundamentally there is no > coming and going, no birth or death, no being > a man or a woman, no being an ordinary person > or an accomplished one, and no nearness or distance. > > Chinul expanding: Therefore one should illumine > and examine one's mind long after the enlightenment: > if deluded thoughts suddenly arise, one should not follow > them but reduce them until one reaches non-action (wu-wei, > Suchness). Only then will one have reached the final > realm. It is precisely this that is called the act of > " cow-tending " by all men of good learning in the world. > > -------------- > > The sage has no connection whatsoever with action, > since he has no idea of accepting or giving up. > Therefore, through constant engrossment on the Brahman > (reality-before-it-is-named), do away with your superimposition > of ideas and concepts upon experience. > --Crest-Jewel of Discrimination, by Shankaracharya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: all three of these are from the same soil. zen did not survive in india. tantra did but in a grossly misunderstood form. advaita did flourish in india, but it became " dry knowledge " . its exponents would just go around saying " this is a dream " etc. the tantrics would laugh at them and call them escapists. these philosophies have affected the evelotion of eastern cultures. india's culture, in particular, devoid of the vigour of tantra and the insight and compassion of zen, became overly philosophical. in india you will find swamis expounding volumes on compassion and enlightenment, but will rarely express it in their lives. and so is india of today - with hi-tech, and lot of wealth, but starving people and squalor at the same time. because eventually the country hides its escapism behind " this is all a dream " . one swami was expounding " this is all dream " in banaras. suddenly a crazed bull ran into the bazaar and everyone ran for their lives. so did the swami. when someone asked him why he ran if it was all a dream, he said that he hadn't actually, it was just a dream. the mind is clever. the heart thirsts for the innocent truth, not clever words. the buddha has perfected not only awareness, but compassion as well. any two bit lawyer can spin words. the buddha was lured by clever brahmins into debate, but he did not enter into it. the buddha said " there is suffering. and there is a way to end this suffering " . he did not say " this is a dream, and your suffering is an illusion " . even if it is all a dream, and the rope has been confused to be the snake, the fear and suffering in the dream is real. advaita could not come up with an equivalent of the bodhisatva. even if it did (there are so many treatises on advaita, one never knows), it was not commonly taught. ramana practised 20 years in a cave after his awakening, to return and help people on the way. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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