Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you that feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, forever safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal awareness? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you that > feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, forever > safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you > supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal awareness? > > /AL Suppose there is. What are we going to do with it? Search for it and use it as a shelter to escape misery, when misery comes? Do we have this choice? Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you that feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, forever safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal awareness? /AL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes and no One, it is not a " part " any " part " can never be at complete peace Two, in true peace there is no concern whatsoever about safety. Safety is a concern of body. In true peace the false perspective of " the body " has dissolved. Three, what is the point of calling it " eternal awareness " ? You seem to believe that " awareness " is a *real something*, something real and pervasive beyond the transitory phenomena coming and going. What do you lose by letting go of that? In this vein I quote from a recent post of Pete's: But then again, no interpretation is needed, all interpretations are false. It could be called Buddha Nature, and it won't change a thing, or called, Christ, or This, and not a thing would be added, or taken away. All names and thoughts about it seem useless. Bill PS: You many be wondering how I say, " Yes and no " , and then give a litany of exceptions to what you said. Well, subtract One through Three and you get the " Yes " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@a...> wrote: > > > We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you that > feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, forever > safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you > supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal awareness? > > /AL > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Yes and no > > One, it is not a " part " > any " part " can never be at complete peace > > Two, in true peace there is no concern whatsoever about safety. > Safety is a concern of body. In true peace the false perspective > of " the body " has dissolved. > > Three, what is the point of calling it " eternal awareness " ? > You seem to believe that " awareness " is a *real something*, > something real and pervasive beyond the transitory phenomena > coming and going. What do you lose by letting go of that? > In this vein I quote from a recent post of Pete's: > > But then again, no interpretation is needed, all interpretations > are false. It could be called Buddha Nature, and it won't change a > thing, or called, Christ, or This, and not a thing would be added, or > taken away. All names and thoughts about it seem useless. > > Bill > > PS: You many be wondering how I say, " Yes and no " , and then give > a litany of exceptions to what you said. Well, subtract One through > Three and you get the " Yes " . > Awareness is what is aware, and what awareness is aware of is itself in relation to itself. That's all there is. This is the 'not two' in Advaita Vedanta. All-there-is is eternal, because there is nowhere it can come from, and nowhere it can go. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you that > > feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, forever > > safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you > > supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal awareness? > > > > /AL > > > Suppose there is. > What are we going to do with it? > Search for it and use it as a shelter to escape misery, when misery > comes? > Do we have this choice? > > Len Hi Len, Awareness is that clear field of clarity already shining. Even behind/around/within misery there is this awareness. So the trick is to recognize that clarity even through heavy layers of suffering thought-forms and emotions. It's not possible to search for the clarity for it's already here. It is, however, possible to recognize it. And one way to recognize this clareness it to first notice what misery is. What _is_ that heavy field of thoughts and emotions that we call misery? And what is clarity? Isn't there clarity even when misery in one's life is heavy like a suit of armor made of lead? Isn't the recognition of that clarity the beginning of the end for the heavy suffering? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you that > > > feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, > forever > > > safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you > > > supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal awareness? > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Suppose there is. > > What are we going to do with it? > > Search for it and use it as a shelter to escape misery, when misery > > comes? > > Do we have this choice? > > > > Len > > Hi Len, > > Awareness is that clear field of clarity already shining. Even > behind/around/within misery there is this awareness. So the trick is > to recognize that clarity even through heavy layers of suffering > thought-forms and emotions. It's not possible to search for the > clarity for it's already here. It is, however, possible to recognize > it. And one way to recognize this clareness it to first notice what > misery is. What _is_ that heavy field of thoughts and emotions that > we call misery? And what is clarity? Isn't there clarity even when > misery in one's life is heavy like a suit of armor made of lead? > Isn't the recognition of that clarity the beginning of the end for > the heavy suffering? > > /AL Hi AL, It seems that we are using the word awareness in two different meanings. To me awareness means just perception, the quality of what's being perceived doesn't really matter, whether I call it a misery or clarity, it's only there for me, because I'm aware of it. In this sense awareness doesn't have a quality of its own, separate from what is being perceived. It's not clear to me what you mean by a clear field of awareness already shining. Do you mean – clarity, the absence of confusion, fear etc…? From what I see, this clarity cannot be seen when misery is there, for the very nature of the misery is the lack of clarity. And the very nature of clarity is the absence of fear – misery. The one is there when the other is not. It seems to me that when that heavy field of thoughts and emotions is there, clarity only exists as a thought (wish?) – as a memory of clarity which was there once and of which we may hope that it will come back again to save us from misery. But this memory of clarity being just a wishful thinking makes part of misery. When misery is there, there is just misery. But when the movement of mental running away from this misery ceases, and instead of trying to escape the misery, we stop labelling it as misery, we can observe it and see what it's made of. And factually, outside of thoughts running through ones head, misery is made out of sensations. As long as these sensations are negatively labelled, the awareness of their nature is lacking, or is, in each case - very superficial. Observing – being the sensations/emotions without defining them, without a mental movement away from them, seems to transform their nature, or shall I say – to dissolve them. Something like that. So, I would say, that clarity is there when the misery is fully recognized and lived through, instead of avoided and suppressed. The misery is gone the very moment the wish to escape it isn't there. It's the very mental movement of trying to escape misery which creates misery. I wonder whether you recognize it? Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > We often feel very unsafe. But isn't there some part of you > that > > > > feels forever safe? Isn't there a part of you that is free, > > forever > > > > safe, and utterly relaxed and clear? And isn't that part of you > > > > supreme joy in the midst of misery? Isn't that eternal > awareness? > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > Suppose there is. > > > What are we going to do with it? > > > Search for it and use it as a shelter to escape misery, when > misery > > > comes? > > > Do we have this choice? > > > > > > Len > > > > Hi Len, > > > > Awareness is that clear field of clarity already shining. Even > > behind/around/within misery there is this awareness. So the trick > is > > to recognize that clarity even through heavy layers of suffering > > thought-forms and emotions. It's not possible to search for the > > clarity for it's already here. It is, however, possible to > recognize > > it. And one way to recognize this clareness it to first notice what > > misery is. What _is_ that heavy field of thoughts and emotions that > > we call misery? And what is clarity? Isn't there clarity even when > > misery in one's life is heavy like a suit of armor made of lead? > > Isn't the recognition of that clarity the beginning of the end for > > the heavy suffering? > > > > /AL > > > Hi AL, > > It seems that we are using the word awareness in two different > meanings. > To me awareness means just perception, the quality of what's being > perceived doesn't really matter, whether I call it a misery or > clarity, it's only there for me, because I'm aware of it. In this > sense awareness doesn't have a quality of its own, separate from what > is being perceived. > It's not clear to me what you mean by a clear field of awareness > already shining. > Do you mean – clarity, the absence of confusion, fear etc…? > From what I see, this clarity cannot be seen when misery is there, > for the very nature of the misery is the lack of clarity. And the > very nature of clarity is the absence of fear – misery. The one is > there when the other is not. > It seems to me that when that heavy field of thoughts and emotions is > there, clarity only exists as a thought (wish?) – as a memory of > clarity which was there once and of which we may hope that it will > come back again to save us from misery. > But this memory of clarity being just a wishful thinking makes part > of misery. > When misery is there, there is just misery. > But when the movement of mental running away from this misery ceases, > and instead of trying to escape the misery, we stop labelling it as > misery, we can observe it and see what it's made of. And factually, > outside of thoughts running through ones head, misery is made out of > sensations. As long as these sensations are negatively labelled, the > awareness of their nature is lacking, or is, in each case - very > superficial. Observing – being the sensations/emotions without > defining them, without a mental movement away from them, seems to > transform their nature, or shall I say – to dissolve them. Something > like that. > So, I would say, that clarity is there when the misery is fully > recognized and lived through, instead of avoided and suppressed. The > misery is gone the very moment the wish to escape it isn't there. > It's the very mental movement of trying to escape misery which > creates misery. > I wonder whether you recognize it? > > Len I feel like the 'me' is a cloud that makes clarity dim. When the sense of a personal me is strong - and it usually is in an ordinary person - then the energy in awareness is being absorbed by this cloud which is a state of conflict. An obvious example of this is when we are totally 'lost in thought', then we are hardly aware of what is going on in the world around us, and all energy is being absorbed by thought processes - we can be looking at something, but the mind doesn't register what we are looking at, there is no awareness of what we are looking at even though our senses are active. All we then see is an internal thought-world. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > I feel like the 'me' is a cloud that makes clarity dim. When the > sense of a personal me is strong - and it usually is in an ordinary > person - then the energy in awareness is being absorbed by this cloud > which is a state of conflict. An obvious example of this is when we > are totally 'lost in thought', then we are hardly aware of what is > going on in the world around us, and all energy is being absorbed by > thought processes - we can be looking at something, but the mind > doesn't register what we are looking at, there is no awareness of > what we are looking at even though our senses are active. All we then > see is an internal thought-world. > > /AL True. Yet, the thought is not the only element. Think for instance of somebody making a remark about you, which you don't like, because it doesn't fit your self-image. First, there is an idea, then, there is an emotional reaction of being hurt. This reaction is real, you can feel it in the body, although it doesn't have any real ground, it's simply triggered by a thought conflicting with your self-image. Well, even if you know that what the other person said is just a thought, you might feel hurt. The perception of the fact that this is just a thought triggering some emotions is clearly not (always) enough to make an end to the whole event. The emotion is there and conflict starts. Now, what is this conflict, actually? Is the emotion in itself problematic? Is the emotion in itself suffering? Or is it the presence of an emotion plus the negative label of this emotion, which causes misery? And what happens when the negative label is recognized as a thought, and the emotion can be allowed to just be there, without any effort to avoid it? When the effort to escape the sensation isn't there, is there misery? Or is there just a sensation, a fact? It seems to me, that the memory is not exclusively limited to thoughts, but there is also an emotional memory, a memory of the body. This body-memory cannot empty itself unless it's allowed to show itself, without any form of mental suppression, judgment, avoidance. When some specific emotion is fully lived through, the thoughts which would usually trigger this emotion, loose all their power and don't occur anymore. The root of a self-thought is emotion/sensation stored in the body memory. When this sensation isn't suppressed, can flow and come to its end, the self-thought also comes to an end. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > I feel like the 'me' is a cloud that makes clarity dim. When the > > sense of a personal me is strong - and it usually is in an ordinary > > person - then the energy in awareness is being absorbed by this > cloud > > which is a state of conflict. An obvious example of this is when we > > are totally 'lost in thought', then we are hardly aware of what is > > going on in the world around us, and all energy is being absorbed > by > > thought processes - we can be looking at something, but the mind > > doesn't register what we are looking at, there is no awareness of > > what we are looking at even though our senses are active. All we > then > > see is an internal thought-world. > > > > /AL > > > True. > Yet, the thought is not the only element. > Think for instance of somebody making a remark about you, which you > don't like, because it doesn't fit your self-image. First, there is > an idea, then, there is an emotional reaction of being hurt. This > reaction is real, you can feel it in the body, although it doesn't > have any real ground, it's simply triggered by a thought conflicting > with your self-image. Well, even if you know that what the other > person said is just a thought, you might feel hurt. The perception of > the fact that this is just a thought triggering some emotions is > clearly not (always) enough to make an end to the whole event. The > emotion is there and conflict starts. > Now, what is this conflict, actually? Is the emotion in itself > problematic? Is the emotion in itself suffering? Or is it the > presence of an emotion plus the negative label of this emotion, which > causes misery? And what happens when the negative label is recognized > as a thought, and the emotion can be allowed to just be there, > without any effort to avoid it? When the effort to escape the > sensation isn't there, is there misery? > Or is there just a sensation, a fact? > It seems to me, that the memory is not exclusively limited to > thoughts, but there is also an emotional memory, a memory of the > body. This body-memory cannot empty itself unless it's allowed to > show itself, without any form of mental suppression, judgment, > avoidance. When some specific emotion is fully lived through, the > thoughts which would usually trigger this emotion, loose all their > power and don't occur anymore. > The root of a self-thought is emotion/sensation stored in the body > memory. > When this sensation isn't suppressed, can flow and come to its end, > the self-thought also comes to an end. > > Len Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and thought memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of these memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I feel that memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but throughout the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer consciously', that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other bodily sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. Eventually the pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, another will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much pain can be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction dissolved I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and thought > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of these > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I feel that > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but throughout > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer consciously', > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other bodily > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. Eventually the > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, another > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much pain can > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction dissolved > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > /AL Yes. There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its very end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain becomes. The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without this judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very pleasant, but nothing to run away from. Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a kind of fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and > thought > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of these > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I feel that > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but throughout > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > consciously', > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other bodily > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. Eventually > the > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, another > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much pain can > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > dissolved > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > /AL > > > Yes. > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its very > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain becomes. > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without this > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very pleasant, > but nothing to run away from. > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a kind of > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > Len I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way fear itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is less fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then dive deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in that space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and > > thought > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of these > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I feel > that > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > throughout > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > consciously', > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other bodily > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. Eventually > > the > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, > another > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much pain > can > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > > dissolved > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Yes. > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its very > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain becomes. > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without this > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > pleasant, > > but nothing to run away from. > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a kind of > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > Len > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way fear > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is less > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then dive > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in that > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > /AL So what's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and > > > thought > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of > these > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I feel > > that > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > > throughout > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > consciously', > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other > bodily > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > Eventually > > > the > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, > > another > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much pain > > can > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > > > dissolved > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its very > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain > becomes. > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without this > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > > pleasant, > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a kind of > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > Len > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way fear > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is less > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then dive > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in that > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > /AL > > So what's the problem? The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > <lissbon2002> > > > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and > > > > thought > > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of > > these > > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I > feel > > > that > > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > > > throughout > > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > > consciously', > > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other > > bodily > > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > > Eventually > > > > the > > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, > > > another > > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much > pain > > > can > > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > > > > dissolved > > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its > very > > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain > > becomes. > > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without > this > > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > > > pleasant, > > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a kind > of > > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way > fear > > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is > less > > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then > dive > > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in > that > > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > > > /AL > > > > So what's the problem? > > The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, the more > will pop up. > > /AL And the fear that suffering may be endless is itself something to look into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory > and > > > > > thought > > > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of > > > these > > > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I > > feel > > > > that > > > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > > > > throughout > > > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > > > consciously', > > > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other > > > bodily > > > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > > > Eventually > > > > > the > > > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, > > > > another > > > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much > > pain > > > > can > > > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > > > > > dissolved > > > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its > > very > > > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain > > > becomes. > > > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without > > this > > > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > > > > pleasant, > > > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a > kind > > of > > > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way > > fear > > > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is > > less > > > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then > > dive > > > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in > > that > > > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > So what's the problem? > > > > The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, the > more > > will pop up. > > > > /AL > > And the fear that suffering may be endless is itself something to > look into. Separation is suffering sustained by fear. Fear is the driving force that motivates the phantom.......... If it looks deeply into fear.......it will see only its own face...staring back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory > and > > > > > thought > > > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of > > > these > > > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I > > feel > > > > that > > > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > > > > throughout > > > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > > > consciously', > > > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other > > > bodily > > > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > > > Eventually > > > > > the > > > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, > > > > another > > > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much > > pain > > > > can > > > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > > > > > dissolved > > > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its > > very > > > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain > > > becomes. > > > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without > > this > > > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > > > > pleasant, > > > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a > kind > > of > > > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way > > fear > > > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is > > less > > > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then > > dive > > > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in > > that > > > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > So what's the problem? > > > > The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, the > more > > will pop up. > > > > /AL > > And the fear that suffering may be endless is itself something to > look into. As you wrote so many times, only now is. So why don't you live by your statement. How could 'endless' fit in a now? To entertain the possibility of endless suffering, 3 things need to be projected: a future, suffering in such future, and an entity who will suffer. Stop being the 'projector' of your doom and glomm fantasy film. Pete needs to projections t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory > > and > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some > of > > > > these > > > > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I > > > feel > > > > > that > > > > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > > > > > throughout > > > > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > > > > consciously', > > > > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and > other > > > > bodily > > > > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > > > > Eventually > > > > > > the > > > > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain > dissolves, > > > > > another > > > > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how > much > > > pain > > > > > can > > > > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each > pain/contraction > > > > > > dissolved > > > > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to > its > > > very > > > > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain > > > > becomes. > > > > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and > without > > > this > > > > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > > > > > pleasant, > > > > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a > > kind > > > of > > > > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way > > > fear > > > > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is > > > less > > > > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then > > > dive > > > > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in > > > that > > > > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > So what's the problem? > > > > > > The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, the > > more > > > will pop up. > > > > > > /AL > > > > And the fear that suffering may be endless is itself something to > > look into. > > As you wrote so many times, only now is. So why don't you live by > your statement. How could 'endless' fit in a now? To entertain the > possibility of endless suffering, 3 things need to be projected: > a future, suffering in such future, and an entity who will suffer. > Stop being the 'projector' of your doom and glomm fantasy film. > > Pete > needs to projections t That's true, but I can't help projecting a fearful future. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > > > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation > memory > > > and > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger > some > > of > > > > > these > > > > > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and > I > > > > feel > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain > but > > > > > > throughout > > > > > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > > > > > consciously', > > > > > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and > > other > > > > > bodily > > > > > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > > > > > Eventually > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain > > dissolves, > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how > > much > > > > pain > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each > > pain/contraction > > > > > > > dissolved > > > > > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > > > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > > > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to > > its > > > > very > > > > > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of > pain > > > > > becomes. > > > > > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and > > without > > > > this > > > > > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary > very > > > > > > pleasant, > > > > > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > > > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a > > > kind > > > > of > > > > > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some > way > > > > fear > > > > > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there > is > > > > less > > > > > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can > then > > > > dive > > > > > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and > in > > > > that > > > > > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > So what's the problem? > > > > > > > > The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, > the > > > more > > > > will pop up. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > And the fear that suffering may be endless is itself something to > > > look into. > > > > As you wrote so many times, only now is. So why don't you live by > > your statement. How could 'endless' fit in a now? To entertain the > > possibility of endless suffering, 3 things need to be projected: > > a future, suffering in such future, and an entity who will suffer. > > Stop being the 'projector' of your doom and glomm fantasy film. > > > > Pete > > needs to projections t > > That's true, but I can't help projecting a fearful future. :-( " Mind " as experienced within the organism evolved with the capacity to remember things that can threaten its survival......Mind in the human arena also evolved as a survival enhancement devise....but man takes this skill to a new level.......He becomes frightened of things that exist only within his mind as possibilities. Gazells do not go around discussing lions........But men......for some odd reason place small lions in their brain......and run from them.... Maybe.....after the possibility of death by lion disappeares.....the brain still needs something to do with all those hard earned skills........... toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation > > memory > > > > and > > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger > > some > > > of > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and > > I > > > > > feel > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain > > but > > > > > > > throughout > > > > > > > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > > > > > > > consciously', > > > > > > > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and > > > other > > > > > > bodily > > > > > > > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. > > > > > > Eventually > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain > > > dissolves, > > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how > > > much > > > > > pain > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each > > > pain/contraction > > > > > > > > dissolved > > > > > > > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > > > > > > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > > > > > > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to > > > its > > > > > very > > > > > > > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of > > pain > > > > > > becomes. > > > > > > > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and > > > without > > > > > this > > > > > > > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary > > very > > > > > > > pleasant, > > > > > > > > but nothing to run away from. > > > > > > > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a > > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some > > way > > > > > fear > > > > > > > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there > > is > > > > > less > > > > > > > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can > > then > > > > > dive > > > > > > > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and > > in > > > > > that > > > > > > > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > So what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > The problem, as Len said, is: The more is allowed to pop up, > > the > > > > more > > > > > will pop up. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > And the fear that suffering may be endless is itself something to > > > > look into. > > > > > > As you wrote so many times, only now is. So why don't you live by > > > your statement. How could 'endless' fit in a now? To entertain the > > > possibility of endless suffering, 3 things need to be projected: > > > a future, suffering in such future, and an entity who will suffer. > > > Stop being the 'projector' of your doom and glomm fantasy film. > > > > > > Pete > > > needs to projections t > > > > That's true, but I can't help projecting a fearful future. :-( > > > > " Mind " as experienced within the organism evolved with the capacity to remember things that can threaten its survival......Mind in the human arena also evolved as a survival enhancement devise....but man takes this skill to a new level.......He becomes frightened of things that exist only within his mind as possibilities. > > Gazells do not go around discussing lions........But men......for some odd reason place small lions in their brain......and run from them.... > > > Maybe.....after the possibility of death by lion disappeares.....the brain still needs something to do with all those hard earned skills........... > Yes, and the biggest fear is of course for the thinking mind to have nothing to do. /AL > > > > toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 > > > > needs to projections t > > > > > > That's true, but I can't help projecting a fearful future. :-( > > > > > > > > " Mind " as experienced within the organism evolved with the capacity > to remember things that can threaten its survival......Mind in the > human arena also evolved as a survival enhancement devise....but man > takes this skill to a new level.......He becomes frightened of things > that exist only within his mind as possibilities. > > > > Gazells do not go around discussing lions........But men......for > some odd reason place small lions in their brain......and run from > them.... > > > > > > Maybe.....after the possibility of death by lion > disappeares.....the brain still needs something to do with all those > hard earned skills........... > > > > Yes, and the biggest fear is of course for the thinking mind to have > nothing to do. > > /AL My biggest fear, if that you don't use the delete key! ) How about trimming your messages of old material? That would give your mind something to do. Its easy, it's fun. You just hightlight what you want to erase and press delete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, there is emotion memory as well as sensation memory and > > thought > > > memory. Something in the present moment can trigger some of these > > > memories. Thought and emotion is a very complex web and I feel > that > > > memory for example is not only 'stored' in the brain but > throughout > > > the whole body. A good technique I think is to 'suffer > > consciously', > > > that is to observe suffering as thought, emotion and other bodily > > > sensations at the same time and just stay in the pain. Eventually > > the > > > pain dissolves. But don't worry - once some pain dissolves, > another > > > will soon pop up. So there is seemingly no end to how much pain > can > > > be produced. But I have felt that for each pain/contraction > > dissolved > > > I feel more energy and the anxiety diminishes a bit. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Yes. > > There is a lot of old, suppressed pain stored in humans. > > The more is allowed to pop up, the more will pop up. > > But it's also true, that the more pain has been faced to its very > > end, until it dissolved, the less intense the fear of pain becomes. > > The judgement about suffering loses its meaning, and without this > > judgement suffering is just a sensation, not necessary very > pleasant, > > but nothing to run away from. > > Eventually suffering can be observed with curiosity, as a kind of > > fascinating event, with its own texture and beauty. > > > > Len > > I agree. Along with pain there is often fear, and in some way fear > itself is also pain, a very nasty form of pain. When there is less > fear then there is a relaxing into suffering and one can then dive > deeper into suffering, and then there is an opening up and in that > space there is peace and also a hightened form of clarity. > > /AL Very true. The worse part of the pain is the pain of resistance/fear. This kind of pain cannot flow, cannot move, cannot be really felt, due to the fearful image. Fear blocks the awareness. That's why it cannot dissolve. One is stuck in it, and it often feels as something unbearable. A pain which is allowed to be there, moves, is alive and changes. Unresisted pain tends to change in pleasure, even extasy, it seems in fact to be the same energy, but the resistance to this energy, the fearful attempt to stop its flow, causes pain. len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: .... > > > > Yes, and the biggest fear is of course for the thinking mind to > have > > nothing to do. > > > > /AL > > My biggest fear, if that you don't use the delete key! ) > How about trimming your messages of old material? That would > give your mind something to do. Its easy, it's fun. You just > hightlight what you want to erase and press delete. Ok. Done! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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