Guest guest Report post Posted June 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " <sga_email> wrote: > > Hi again, > > > > > > > *Who* declares the above? > > > > > > > > A timeless point in absolute existence. > > > > > > > > > How can a timeless point in absolute existence make a claim? > > > > > > *Who* declares the above? > > > >>There is no one making a claim.>> > > > What about the timeless point in existences' claim? > Who now claims there is no one making a claim? " Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof. " -- Buddha's words according to Ramesh Balsekar Think about the thought " I make this claim " . Who is creating that thought? > > > > <<<<The claim happens as a part of > > Totality.>>>>> > > > Yes, ( the claim that is not being made ) is part of the totality. > > > > >>>>>Think of the timeless point leading to another timeless > > point automatically.>>>>> > > > > Ok...and after that? :-) One point leads to another point which leads to another point... This iteration is going on infinitely fast in the present moment giving the appearance of time passing. This chain of points is not something that is created or destroyed. All the points timelessly *are*. > > > > >>>>>There is no _doer_ of anything.>> > > > Of course there is.. > > Who mows the lawn? A single observation point in the Timeless Matrix represents the entire Universe as observed from that point. That wich is observed at any point including a lawn, a lawn mower, a neighbour smiling at your efforts mowing the lawn e t c is just a picture without any substance. The material world is all Maya, an illusion. This Maya _is_ what reality is. The substance of the world, the juicy green grass e t c _is_ reality. But it's like virual reality, or like the simulated dream world in the Matrix movie. A _single_ point in the Timeless Matrix gives the appearance of an entire material universe including your own body at a given moment in " time " . But there is no creation or destruction going on. The Timeless Matrix is changeless and already complete where nothing can be added or taken away. A mathematical model of the Timeless Matrix would be an infinite and infinitely complex configuration space. When awareness " touches " a single point in this configuration space the entire material universe at a certain point in " time " appears instantaneously. > > > > >>>>You seem to > > think of time as having a beginning in the past or as having been > > going on from an infinite past ago>>>>> > > > No, times arrows have direction, but there is no such (real) thing as > time and it does not *cause* anything. > > > > >>>>We exist now.>> > > Yes. > > > >>The past has never happened.>> > > > Yes, it has. No. The past has never been. You were not born years ago, you were born Now. The entire universe appear in this very instant only. > > > >>The past is a fixed static memory track appearing Now>> > > > The past 'will' occurr, 'has' occurred, 'does' occurr and 'can only' > occurr NOW. > > Let us both pull on each end of NOW 'forever' and see what we end up > with > > > > >You > > have lived for zero seconds>> > > > No, I haven't, I have lived for 31, nearly 32 years, and it is a ME > that says so! This is just a memory appearing Now. Think of the past as being compressed into this now only. Sure, the past is there, but are you sure that your past has been going on for 31 years? Do you realize that this memory track could be " created " in zero seconds in the now? > > > > >How can you say that a static memory > > track containing the image of you communicating is real > > communication?>>>> > > > I haven't said anything like this Then show me the past that is NOT just memories. ;-) > > > > >>>You have _never_ been in the past>>>> > > > Yes, I have. In your memories. Only in your mind happening Now, my padawan learner. > > > >So how can you have > > communicated something?>>> > > > *Communication* is happening between *you* and *me*. > And it takes a *you* and *me* TO communicate. You assume that there are more than one in existence. Are you sure about this? /AL > > > > > > I'm enjoying the trip Luke Skywalker > > > > Be mindful of the living Force, my padawan learner. ;-) > > > Be *mindful* always. > > > Kind Regards, > > Scott. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 16, 2004 Hi again, > > >>There is no one making a claim.>> > > > > > > What about the timeless point in existences' claim? > > Who now claims there is no one making a claim? > " Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer > thereof. " -- Buddha's words according to Ramesh Balsekar He also went on to speak of 4 noble truths, about suffering, meditation, the mind, and moral precepts. The individual doer who thinks of *himself* AS such is illusionary AS A ME. There is no contradiction here with the methods, truths and precepts the Buddha also taught. And again, beware the *half truth* and again you cannot use excluded middle logic for reality concerns. > Think about the thought " I make this claim " . Who is creating that > thought? A ME makes the claim and it 'takes a ME' to claim it. > > Ok...and after that? > > :-) One point leads to another point which leads to another point... > This iteration is going on infinitely fast in the present moment > giving the appearance of time passing. This chain of points is not > something that is created or destroyed. All the points timelessly > *are*. and after that... > > >>>>>There is no _doer_ of anything.>> > > > > > > Of course there is.. > > > > Who mows the lawn? > > A single observation point in the Timeless Matrix represents the > entire Universe as observed from that point>>> Yes, each thing looks from a different viewpoint. Represents? >>That wich is observed at > any point including a lawn, a lawn mower, a neighbour smiling at your > efforts mowing the lawn e t c is just a picture without any > substance>>> It *is* substance, matter. >>The material world is all Maya, an illusion. This Maya > _is_ what reality is.>>> It is a ME that thinks so! >The substance of the world, the juicy green > grass e t c _is_ reality. But it's like virual reality, or like the > simulated dream world in the Matrix movie>>> It is nothing like the Matrix movie! Thousands of years ago when people first started seeing strange objects in the sky, they thought of them as weird looking Gods, later with the development of man they saw them as fire and other phenomenon, still later with mans technological advance, they saw these objects as having wheels, later and again with mans advance in development these objects acquired new shapes and man was seeing steam powered objects in the sky, with the jet age, these objects acquired jet engines. The same applies to God, thousands of years ago God became associated with natural forces such as thunder etc, then he became something different during the middle ages and was worshipped differently, then he acquired a new flavour at the turn of last century, then with the coming of the 'new age' he became many others things, now with the development of the technological revolution we have the current mythology. 'HE' is above *all this*, and again, the way that can be .... >A _single_ point in the > Timeless Matrix gives the appearance of an entire material universe > including your own body at a given moment in " time " . But there is no > creation or destruction going on. The Timeless Matrix is changeless > and already complete where nothing can be added or taken away>> The 'Timeless Matrix' does nothing of the sort. > > A mathematical model of the Timeless Matrix would be an infinite and > infinitely complex configuration space. When awareness " touches " a > single point in this configuration space the entire material universe > at a certain point in " time " appears instantaneously>> I suggest that you start working on it *now*, because it will take you an infinite amount of time > No. The past has never been. You were not born years ago, you were > born Now. The entire universe appear in this very instant only. I was born in the past and it is a ME that says so! > > >You > > > have lived for zero seconds>> > > > > > > No, I haven't, I have lived for 31, nearly 32 years, and it is a ME > > that says so! > > This is just a memory appearing Now. Think of the past as being > compressed into this now only. Sure, the past is there, but are you > sure that your past has been going on for 31 years? Do you realize > that this memory track could be " created " in zero seconds in the now? A memory track created? > > >How can you say that a static memory > > > track containing the image of you communicating is real > > > communication?>>>> > > > > > > I haven't said anything like this > > Then show me the past that is NOT just memories. ;-) How can I 'show you the past' when it's impossible to show you the taste of an apple? > > >>>You have _never_ been in the past>>>> > > > > > > Yes, I have. > > In your memories. Only in your mind happening Now, my padawan learner>> What is outside of mind? The now is, was, will be the past, present and future. > > >So how can you have > > > communicated something?>>> > > > > > > *Communication* is happening between *you* and *me*. > > And it takes a *you* and *me* TO communicate. > > You assume that there are more than one in existence. Are you sure > about this? There is more than one in existence and that is part of what makes existence what it is. Lets start counting... Kind Regards, Scott. 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Guest guest Report post Posted June 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " <sga_email> wrote: > > Hi again, > > > > >>There is no one making a claim.>> > > > > > > > > > What about the timeless point in existences' claim? > > > Who now claims there is no one making a claim? > > > > " Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer > > thereof. " -- Buddha's words according to Ramesh Balsekar > > > He also went on to speak of 4 noble truths, about suffering, > meditation, the mind, and moral precepts. > > The individual doer who thinks of *himself* AS such is illusionary AS > A ME. > > There is no contradiction here with the methods, truths and precepts > the Buddha also taught. > > And again, beware the *half truth* and again you cannot use excluded > middle logic for reality concerns. > > > > Think about the thought " I make this claim " . Who is creating that > > thought? > > > A ME makes the claim and it 'takes a ME' to claim it. > > > > > Ok...and after that? > > > > :-) One point leads to another point which leads to another > point... > > This iteration is going on infinitely fast in the present moment > > giving the appearance of time passing. This chain of points is not > > something that is created or destroyed. All the points timelessly > > *are*. > > > and after that... > > > > > > >>>>>There is no _doer_ of anything.>> > > > > > > > > > Of course there is.. > > > > > > Who mows the lawn? > > > > A single observation point in the Timeless Matrix represents the > > entire Universe as observed from that point>>> > > > Yes, each thing looks from a different viewpoint. > Represents? > > > >>That wich is observed at > > any point including a lawn, a lawn mower, a neighbour smiling at > your > > efforts mowing the lawn e t c is just a picture without any > > substance>>> > > > It *is* substance, matter. > > > > >>The material world is all Maya, an illusion. This Maya > > _is_ what reality is.>>> > > > It is a ME that thinks so! > > > >The substance of the world, the juicy green > > grass e t c _is_ reality. But it's like virual reality, or like the > > simulated dream world in the Matrix movie>>> > > > It is nothing like the Matrix movie! > > Thousands of years ago when people first started seeing strange > objects in the sky, they thought of them as weird looking Gods, later > with the development of man they saw them as fire and other > phenomenon, still later with mans technological advance, they saw > these objects as having wheels, later and again with mans advance in > development these objects acquired new shapes and man was seeing > steam powered objects in the sky, with the jet age, these objects > acquired jet engines. > > The same applies to God, thousands of years ago God became associated > with natural forces such as thunder etc, then he became something > different during the middle ages and was worshipped differently, then > he acquired a new flavour at the turn of last century, then with the > coming of the 'new age' he became many others things, now with the > development of the technological revolution we have the current > mythology. > > 'HE' is above *all this*, and again, the way that can be .... And now we have some people beginning to discover the illusion of time. See: http://www.platonia.com/ This is what Lee Smolin says about this theory: " The most interesting and provocative new idea about time to be proposed in many years. If true, it will change the way we see reality. " http://www.qgravity.org/lee/ I suspect strongly that time is an illusion. IMO, there never has been any " Thousands of years ago when people... " as you claim. > > > > >A _single_ point in the > > Timeless Matrix gives the appearance of an entire material universe > > including your own body at a given moment in " time " . But there is > no > > creation or destruction going on. The Timeless Matrix is changeless > > and already complete where nothing can be added or taken away>> > > > The 'Timeless Matrix' does nothing of the sort. Nothing is doing anything. Reality is timeless. > > > > > > A mathematical model of the Timeless Matrix would be an infinite > and > > infinitely complex configuration space. When awareness " touches " a > > single point in this configuration space the entire material > universe > > at a certain point in " time " appears instantaneously>> > > > > I suggest that you start working on it *now*, because it will take > you an infinite amount of time > > > > No. The past has never been. You were not born years ago, you were > > born Now. The entire universe appear in this very instant only. > > > I was born in the past and it is a ME that says so! So solid this ME, eh? ;-) > > > > > > >You > > > > have lived for zero seconds>> > > > > > > > > > No, I haven't, I have lived for 31, nearly 32 years, and it is a > ME > > > that says so! > > > > This is just a memory appearing Now. Think of the past as being > > compressed into this now only. Sure, the past is there, but are you > > sure that your past has been going on for 31 years? Do you realize > > that this memory track could be " created " in zero seconds in the > now? > > > A memory track created? Created in the sense that the appearance of infinite complexity arises in an instant, and this instant contains the _entire_ history record from the " beginning " of the Big Bang to present existence here on earth. > > > > > > >How can you say that a static memory > > > > track containing the image of you communicating is real > > > > communication?>>>> > > > > > > > > > I haven't said anything like this > > > > Then show me the past that is NOT just memories. ;-) > > > How can I 'show you the past' when it's impossible to show you the > taste of an apple? Can you show yourself a past that is not only memories then? > > > > > > >>>You have _never_ been in the past>>>> > > > > > > > > > Yes, I have. > > > > In your memories. Only in your mind happening Now, my padawan > learner>> > > > What is outside of mind? > > The now is, was, will be the past, present and future. No, the now is only now, the now never was. But the now will be, that is correct, because the now *begins* now, but it does not end now. > > > > > > >So how can you have > > > > communicated something?>>> > > > > > > > > > *Communication* is happening between *you* and *me*. > > > And it takes a *you* and *me* TO communicate. > > > > You assume that there are more than one in existence. Are you sure > > about this? > > > There is more than one in existence and that is part of what makes > existence what it is. > > Lets start counting... I must admit I felt a bit awkward writing this. If there is only one, then there is only me talking to me. Of course, that may be the case, who knows? :-) /AL > > > Kind Regards, > > Scott. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 17, 2004 Hi again, > And now we have some people beginning to discover the illusion of > time. Sounds funny doesn't it, And NOW we have some people BEGINNING to discover the illusion of time > See: http://www.platonia.com/ > > This is what Lee Smolin says about this theory: > > " The most interesting and provocative new idea about time to be > proposed in many years. If true, it will change the way we see > reality. " Sounds like a commercial! Hope they don't try to start selling time! > http://www.qgravity.org/lee/ > > I suspect strongly that time is an illusion. IMO, there never has > been any " Thousands of years ago when people... " as you claim. Time is an illusion, and if it weren't for the happenings of thousands of years ago there would be no time. It is not the 'other way around'. > > >A _single_ point in the > > > Timeless Matrix gives the appearance of an entire material > universe > > > including your own body at a given moment in " time " . But there is > > no > > > creation or destruction going on. The Timeless Matrix is > changeless > > > and already complete where nothing can be added or taken away>> > > > > > > The 'Timeless Matrix' does nothing of the sort. > Nothing is doing anything. >>> Many things are doing many things. You and me and communicating, the birds are singing and the supermarket has spaghetti on special today. <<<Reality is timeless.>>> Reality *includes* time. > > > Then show me the past that is NOT just memories. ;-) > > > > > > How can I 'show you the past' when it's impossible to show you the > > taste of an apple? > > Can you show yourself a past that is not only memories then? No, ME, I can't. This is the same as asking 'is it possible to 'go back' in time and see what has happened there?' The past is *always* 'there'. > > The now is, was, will be the past, present and future. > > No, the now is only now, the now never was. But the now will be, that > is correct, because the now *begins* now, but it does not end now. There is *only* now, it does not begin or start. 'Past, present and future', are what 'pass through' the SAME *one* and only now. Like a tape with all time and being on it which passes over the magnetic head reader (now). > > There is more than one in existence and that is part of what makes > > existence what it is. > > > > Lets start counting... > I must admit I felt a bit awkward writing this>> It is a ME that feels awkward. >If there is only one, then there is only me talking to me.>> This is an ignorant statement, and it is a *ME* that thinks so. Of course, that may be the case, > who knows? :-)> Yes, Who knows? Kind Regards, Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " <sga_email> wrote: > > Hi again, > > > And now we have some people beginning to discover the illusion of > > time. > > > Sounds funny doesn't it, And NOW we have some people BEGINNING to > discover the illusion of time The NOW is always BEGINNING, and it is BEGINNING NOW. Try to catch on, will ya? ;-) > > > > > > See: http://www.platonia.com/ > > > > This is what Lee Smolin says about this theory: > > > > " The most interesting and provocative new idea about time to be > > proposed in many years. If true, it will change the way we see > > reality. " > > > Sounds like a commercial! > Hope they don't try to start selling time! I don't think so, Julian Barbour says that there is no time to sell! > > > > > http://www.qgravity.org/lee/ > > > > I suspect strongly that time is an illusion. IMO, there never has > > been any " Thousands of years ago when people... " as you claim. > > > Time is an illusion, and if it weren't for the happenings of > thousands of years ago there would be no time. > > It is not the 'other way around'. Yes, the appearance of time happens now. Without the past we would have no foundation. The past is our platform. The past is very valuable. And the past is " created " NOW. So the past is real, only that the past is being created right now in a snap! Existence has existed zero seconds! See? Are you blind to this obvious fact? Do you believe time began from a changeless state? You must, if you believe the past has happened a certain amount of time ago. Illusion. Sheer illusion. How can something which is changless change???????!!!!! How can you have a begining of time, unless that beginning is NOW?????? > > > > > > >A _single_ point in the > > > > Timeless Matrix gives the appearance of an entire material > > universe > > > > including your own body at a given moment in " time " . But there > is > > > no > > > > creation or destruction going on. The Timeless Matrix is > > changeless > > > > and already complete where nothing can be added or taken away>> > > > > > > > > > The 'Timeless Matrix' does nothing of the sort. > > > > > Nothing is doing anything. >>> > > > Many things are doing many things. > > You and me and communicating, the birds are singing and the > supermarket has spaghetti on special today. In your mind you see a past and a future. You see a supermarket, but that supermarket is created NOW. You see spaghetti, but this spaghetti is created NOW. How can the be communication in the now? It can't? All you can be aware of is a dead past. All you can be aware of has already happened, including your spaghetti, and it has happened NOW. Time in the form of the past and the future does only exist as thoughts in your mind. The thoughts themselves are real, but what the thoughts are about (memories, projection) is only appearances created NOW. > > > > <<<Reality is timeless.>>> > > > Reality *includes* time. Time is the changing NOW. There has never been any past, and there will never be any future except for the changing NOW. > > > > > > > Then show me the past that is NOT just memories. ;-) > > > > > > > > > How can I 'show you the past' when it's impossible to show you > the > > > taste of an apple? > > > > Can you show yourself a past that is not only memories then? > > > No, ME, I can't. > > This is the same as asking 'is it possible to 'go back' in time and > see what has happened there?' > > The past is *always* 'there'. Yes, the past is now. > > > > > > The now is, was, will be the past, present and future. > > > > No, the now is only now, the now never was. But the now will be, > that > > is correct, because the now *begins* now, but it does not end now. > > > There is *only* now, it does not begin or start. Oh, yes, it begins now. The _motion_ you experience begins now. Trying to deny motion, are you? ;-) > > 'Past, present and future', are what 'pass through' the SAME *one* > and only now. > > Like a tape with all time and being on it which passes over the > magnetic head reader (now). Yes. > > > > > > There is more than one in existence and that is part of what > makes > > > existence what it is. > > > > > > Lets start counting... > > > > I must admit I felt a bit awkward writing this>> > > > > It is a ME that feels awkward. > > > > >If there is only one, then there is only me talking to me.>> > > > This is an ignorant statement, and it is a *ME* that thinks so. Yes, it is an ego statement. I feel like an ego. And a wannabe Sage. :-) > > > Of course, that may be the case, > > who knows? :-)> > > > Yes, Who knows? > > > Kind Regards, > > Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
