Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Realization , " manjusrilotus " <manjusrilotus> wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > Dear Manjusrilotus, > > > > What is it like when the " the real confrontation and > > dismantling [begins] in earnest " ? Is it like you suddenly > > take seriously the fact that you're sitting there all day > > doing this endless stuff, and suddenly you say, good > > grief, what am I doing? > > > > I'm guessing that it's pointless to try to imagine it but > > I'd like to get my fingernails into the beginning of it. > > > > Rob > > > Well there are a couple of things that begin. First there can be a > direct seeing that everything in life that was creating a > perceivable bondage, was accepted dwelled on and ruminated > about endlessly. Oh the pain of it all. A natural deep looking > shows that it was the persona alone that clung to these > sufferings. Why me? That perceivable event which created the > sufferings passed long ago . So why were they so firmly > entrenched? Praying didn't end it . Affirmations didn't help it. > Psychological analysis didn't stop it . No outside endeavor > helped to relieve or end the suffering mind. When mind suffers > All suffers. > > I took stock of the fact it was myself and my self alone that held > the endless bondages in place. So I confronted it - to the > deepest levels and tore them apart until they could no longer > stand . > That started the direction of the deeper questioning that was to > arise of breaking apart the persona itself. > > Here a spontaneous questioning of what is this persona > consisting of began. Am I this name ? What is the mind ? Is it > who I am . What are emotions ? etc. It wasn't any simple one > line phrase such as who am I over and over again like a > relentless mantra? It was more like a tearing apart of every > avenue one limb at a time. Finally only shreds remained then > one final death thrall took what remained. > > It isn't as much of a contrived practice as rather a movement at > the core level that induces one to start the backwards trek of > letting go - rather than gathering and collecting. Being so sick of > the problems that you are willing to face and jump into what > amounts to and feels exactly like extinction. > > Everyone thinks they want it until the first feelings of annihilation > begin to appear, and it will. Along the way you might lose > patches of time. Moments of no thought arise. They begin to > extend into vaster and vaster time . ( at first you might think I > have a brain tumor or alzheimers) The connection with name will > go. The dis-connection with body may happen wherein > consiousness might feel unattached and the body like working a > puppet from the exterior. Subtle and not so subtle shifts of > consciousness take place. > > Of course this is different depending on the individual journey to > where you began, where there was no you. You're describing a process involving experiences, in which there's an observer watching things that formerly were taken as solid, becoming less solid and disappearing. Which may be helpful, exciting, whatever -- it's still an adventure. Still a process and an observation, although apparently of some use to you. Someone is there saying, " oh, someone is being annhilated little by little through this process, " so there's not really a full death to it, and there may be a strengthening of the observer/witness. Here I am on the adventure of watching myself gradually disappear, get less and less substantial. But is the observer of that process really becoming less substantial, or is there a sense of a special experience of dissolution being had? In Madhyamika Buddhism it's said that truth involves neither annhilation nor continuity of an entity. That is my understanding. When metaphors of annhilation are used, they must be taken with a grain of salt, because there is always a paradox to them. When nothing like that can be said: one's death is one's life. It is the end of the observer and observed situation, the dissolution of an experiencer in a process of experience. When God takes you, he takes you whole, all at once. There is no process to it, no one there observing what is going on. Not that processes that can be observed are wrong or out of place - they're not, and they can be worthwhile to a point. God, by which I mean truth, does not account our experiences, nor our ability to describe a process of dissolution of beliefs that once were solid. God, being not an entity, not a process, not a belief, simply takes you when you are ready -- or even before you are ready if he wants. Of course, I'm speaking metaphorically -- there is no God that exists as a knowable being, as a he, or anything else. Peace all, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > > wrote: > > > Dear Manjusrilotus, > > > > > > What is it like when the " the real confrontation and > > > dismantling [begins] in earnest " ? Is it like you suddenly > > > take seriously the fact that you're sitting there all day > > > doing this endless stuff, and suddenly you say, good > > > grief, what am I doing? > > > > > > I'm guessing that it's pointless to try to imagine it but > > > I'd like to get my fingernails into the beginning of it. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > Well there are a couple of things that begin. First there can be a > > direct seeing that everything in life that was creating a > > perceivable bondage, was accepted dwelled on and ruminated > > about endlessly. Oh the pain of it all. A natural deep looking > > shows that it was the persona alone that clung to these > > sufferings. Why me? That perceivable event which created the > > sufferings passed long ago . So why were they so firmly > > entrenched? Praying didn't end it . Affirmations didn't help it. > > Psychological analysis didn't stop it . No outside endeavor > > helped to relieve or end the suffering mind. When mind suffers > > All suffers. > > > > I took stock of the fact it was myself and my self alone that held > > the endless bondages in place. So I confronted it - to the > > deepest levels and tore them apart until they could no longer > > stand . > > That started the direction of the deeper questioning that was to > > arise of breaking apart the persona itself. > > > > Here a spontaneous questioning of what is this persona > > consisting of began. Am I this name ? What is the mind ? Is it > > who I am . What are emotions ? etc. It wasn't any simple one > > line phrase such as who am I over and over again like a > > relentless mantra? It was more like a tearing apart of every > > avenue one limb at a time. Finally only shreds remained then > > one final death thrall took what remained. > > > > It isn't as much of a contrived practice as rather a movement at > > the core level that induces one to start the backwards trek of > > letting go - rather than gathering and collecting. Being so sick > of > > the problems that you are willing to face and jump into what > > amounts to and feels exactly like extinction. > > > > Everyone thinks they want it until the first feelings of > annihilation > > begin to appear, and it will. Along the way you might lose > > patches of time. Moments of no thought arise. They begin to > > extend into vaster and vaster time . ( at first you might think I > > have a brain tumor or alzheimers) The connection with name will > > go. The dis-connection with body may happen wherein > > consiousness might feel unattached and the body like working a > > puppet from the exterior. Subtle and not so subtle shifts of > > consciousness take place. > > > > Of course this is different depending on the individual journey to > > where you began, where there was no you. > > You're describing a process involving > experiences, in which there's an observer > watching things that formerly were taken as solid, becoming > less solid and disappearing. > > Which may be helpful, exciting, whatever -- it's still > an adventure. > Still a process and an observation, although apparently > of some use to you. > > Someone is there saying, " oh, someone is being annhilated > little by little through this process, " > so there's not really a full death to it, > and there may be a strengthening of the observer/witness. > > Here I am on the adventure of watching myself gradually > disappear, get less and less substantial. > > But is the observer of that process really becoming less > substantial, or is there a sense of > a special experience of dissolution being had? > > In Madhyamika Buddhism it's said that truth involves > neither annhilation nor continuity of an entity. dear Dan, this is a great understanding whatever my praise or judgement is worth. <grin> peace-love, Karta congratulations > > That is my understanding. > > When metaphors of annhilation are used, they must be > taken with a grain of salt, because there is > always a paradox to them. > > When nothing like that can be said: one's death is > one's life. > > It is the end of the observer and observed situation, > the dissolution of an experiencer in a process > of experience. > > When God takes you, he takes you whole, all at once. > > There is no process to it, no one there observing what > is going on. > > Not that processes that can be observed are wrong or out > of place - they're not, and they can be worthwhile to > a point. > > God, by which I mean truth, > does not account our experiences, nor our ability > to describe a process of dissolution > of beliefs that once were solid. > > God, being not an entity, not a process, not a belief, simply > takes you when you are ready -- or even before you are > ready if he wants. > > Of course, I'm speaking metaphorically -- there is no God that > exists as a knowable being, as a he, or anything else. > > Peace all, > Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Realization , " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Manjusrilotus, > > > > > > > > What is it like when the " the real confrontation and > > > > dismantling [begins] in earnest " ? Is it like you suddenly > > > > take seriously the fact that you're sitting there all day > > > > doing this endless stuff, and suddenly you say, good > > > > grief, what am I doing? > > > > > > > > I'm guessing that it's pointless to try to imagine it but > > > > I'd like to get my fingernails into the beginning of it. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > Well there are a couple of things that begin. First there can be a > > > direct seeing that everything in life that was creating a > > > perceivable bondage, was accepted dwelled on and ruminated > > > about endlessly. Oh the pain of it all. A natural deep looking > > > shows that it was the persona alone that clung to these > > > sufferings. Why me? That perceivable event which created the > > > sufferings passed long ago . So why were they so firmly > > > entrenched? Praying didn't end it . Affirmations didn't help it. > > > Psychological analysis didn't stop it . No outside endeavor > > > helped to relieve or end the suffering mind. When mind suffers > > > All suffers. > > > > > > I took stock of the fact it was myself and my self alone that held > > > the endless bondages in place. So I confronted it - to the > > > deepest levels and tore them apart until they could no longer > > > stand . > > > That started the direction of the deeper questioning that was to > > > arise of breaking apart the persona itself. > > > > > > Here a spontaneous questioning of what is this persona > > > consisting of began. Am I this name ? What is the mind ? Is it > > > who I am . What are emotions ? etc. It wasn't any simple one > > > line phrase such as who am I over and over again like a > > > relentless mantra? It was more like a tearing apart of every > > > avenue one limb at a time. Finally only shreds remained then > > > one final death thrall took what remained. > > > > > > It isn't as much of a contrived practice as rather a movement at > > > the core level that induces one to start the backwards trek of > > > letting go - rather than gathering and collecting. Being so sick > > of > > > the problems that you are willing to face and jump into what > > > amounts to and feels exactly like extinction. > > > > > > Everyone thinks they want it until the first feelings of > > annihilation > > > begin to appear, and it will. Along the way you might lose > > > patches of time. Moments of no thought arise. They begin to > > > extend into vaster and vaster time . ( at first you might think I > > > have a brain tumor or alzheimers) The connection with name will > > > go. The dis-connection with body may happen wherein > > > consiousness might feel unattached and the body like working a > > > puppet from the exterior. Subtle and not so subtle shifts of > > > consciousness take place. > > > > > > Of course this is different depending on the individual journey to > > > where you began, where there was no you. > > > > You're describing a process involving > > experiences, in which there's an observer > > watching things that formerly were taken as solid, becoming > > less solid and disappearing. > > > > Which may be helpful, exciting, whatever -- it's still > > an adventure. > > Still a process and an observation, although apparently > > of some use to you. > > > > Someone is there saying, " oh, someone is being annhilated > > little by little through this process, " > > so there's not really a full death to it, > > and there may be a strengthening of the observer/witness. > > > > Here I am on the adventure of watching myself gradually > > disappear, get less and less substantial. > > > > But is the observer of that process really becoming less > > substantial, or is there a sense of > > a special experience of dissolution being had? > > > > In Madhyamika Buddhism it's said that truth involves > > neither annhilation nor continuity of an entity. > > > dear Dan, > > this is a great understanding > > whatever my praise or judgement is > worth. <grin> > > peace-love, Karta > > congratulations Hi Karta -- If your intelligence resonates with these words -- then excellent! This is not a matter of praise or judgment, but opening. Being opened, one receives no congratulations, the all one is -- already always is ... Nothing unusual or out of the ordinary ... Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Realization , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Realization , " manjusrilotus " > <manjusrilotus> wrote: > > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > > wrote: > > > Dear Manjusrilotus, > > > > > > What is it like when the " the real confrontation and > > > dismantling [begins] in earnest " ? Is it like you suddenly > > > take seriously the fact that you're sitting there all day > > > doing this endless stuff, and suddenly you say, good > > > grief, what am I doing? > > > > > > I'm guessing that it's pointless to try to imagine it but > > > I'd like to get my fingernails into the beginning of it. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > Well there are a couple of things that begin. First there can be a > > direct seeing that everything in life that was creating a > > perceivable bondage, was accepted dwelled on and ruminated > > about endlessly. Oh the pain of it all. A natural deep looking > > shows that it was the persona alone that clung to these > > sufferings. Why me? That perceivable event which created the > > sufferings passed long ago . So why were they so firmly > > entrenched? Praying didn't end it . Affirmations didn't help it. > > Psychological analysis didn't stop it . No outside endeavor > > helped to relieve or end the suffering mind. When mind suffers > > All suffers. > > > > I took stock of the fact it was myself and my self alone that held > > the endless bondages in place. So I confronted it - to the > > deepest levels and tore them apart until they could no longer > > stand . > > That started the direction of the deeper questioning that was to > > arise of breaking apart the persona itself. > > > > Here a spontaneous questioning of what is this persona > > consisting of began. Am I this name ? What is the mind ? Is it > > who I am . What are emotions ? etc. It wasn't any simple one > > line phrase such as who am I over and over again like a > > relentless mantra? It was more like a tearing apart of every > > avenue one limb at a time. Finally only shreds remained then > > one final death thrall took what remained. > > > > It isn't as much of a contrived practice as rather a movement at > > the core level that induces one to start the backwards trek of > > letting go - rather than gathering and collecting. Being so sick > of > > the problems that you are willing to face and jump into what > > amounts to and feels exactly like extinction. > > > > Everyone thinks they want it until the first feelings of > annihilation > > begin to appear, and it will. Along the way you might lose > > patches of time. Moments of no thought arise. They begin to > > extend into vaster and vaster time . ( at first you might think I > > have a brain tumor or alzheimers) The connection with name will > > go. The dis-connection with body may happen wherein > > consiousness might feel unattached and the body like working a > > puppet from the exterior. Subtle and not so subtle shifts of > > consciousness take place. > > > > Of course this is different depending on the individual journey to > > where you began, where there was no you. > > You're describing a process involving > experiences, in which there's an observer > watching things that formerly were taken as solid, becoming > less solid and disappearing. > > Which may be helpful, exciting, whatever -- it's still > an adventure. > Still a process and an observation, although apparently > of some use to you. > > Someone is there saying, " oh, someone is being annhilated > little by little through this process, " > so there's not really a full death to it, > and there may be a strengthening of the observer/witness. > > Here I am on the adventure of watching myself gradually > disappear, get less and less substantial. > > But is the observer of that process really becoming less > substantial, or is there a sense of > a special experience of dissolution being had? > > In Madhyamika Buddhism it's said that truth involves > neither annhilation nor continuity of an entity. > > That is my understanding. > > When metaphors of annhilation are used, they must be > taken with a grain of salt, because there is > always a paradox to them. > > When nothing like that can be said: one's death is > one's life. > > It is the end of the observer and observed situation, > the dissolution of an experiencer in a process > of experience. > > When God takes you, he takes you whole, all at once. > > There is no process to it, no one there observing what > is going on. > > Not that processes that can be observed are wrong or out > of place - they're not, and they can be worthwhile to > a point. > > God, by which I mean truth, > does not account our experiences, nor our ability > to describe a process of dissolution > of beliefs that once were solid. > > God, being not an entity, not a process, not a belief, simply > takes you when you are ready -- or even before you are > ready if he wants. > > Of course, I'm speaking metaphorically -- there is no God that > exists as a knowable being, as a he, or anything else. > > Peace all, > Dan Do not discount there are many ways and means. Death is Death no matter which way it comes. Whether there is a pulling away at first until a final death appears, or whether it happens in a shift. What does it matter? Death is Death . End of story . The story does not again make an appearance . God is All and god is simply a concept of creation and other. Both are correct and true. I am not so arrogant as to say what occurred to bring about the death in this case is the Only ways and means. But no matter which ways and means it travels or arrives the end point is the same. Just the scenery along the road is different. Herein lies the only difference. One entered by means of a pail bottom falling out. Another when ready to commit suicide and a question arose from their depths . The answer so overwhelming as to render them unconscious and upon awakening a whole new paradigm was entered minus the self persona. Another simply was one moment in regular consciousness and then in the next it all fell away. Another was pulled beyond meditation into the Death which left in its wake Realization. There are many ways but to each it meant an end of the illusion of persona and separate self . Each entered into Realization which carries no center per say and yet they are ever within Balance . The emptiness of phenomena is Full and Whole. The Grand Paradox Is the reality. Not a concept . Not a rising and falling or entering nor leaving one experience after another. It IS a Permanent falling away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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