Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Realization , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > > > > But is this really true for everybody? What about > somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door > that says " Abandon all hope ye who enter " as easily as > a child falls asleep? > > ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! > > ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. > > ******** And let me explain something else here, people all the time have what they consider to be " enlightenment " experiences, but the difference between a person who has such experiences and one who what I call as actually " self realized " is that a self realized person is one who has conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through the actual *dying* process. And once that happens there is no going back and forth, all bridges have been burned in that dismantling process. That's why as you have probably heard some people say that actual " Enlightenment " only happens once. > It's a one time event. By its very nature it can only be so. And people continue to confuse these enlightenment experiences no matter how so-called *profound* they are, with actual Understanding itself. They are not anywhere near close. It's a completely total different thing. And so people continue to chase these enlightenment experiences. But that is not it. > > Judi Sometimes the dismantling occurs over time. Consciously confronting mind emotion and body identity. This can break solidity until nothing is left but a fine strand which is broken then when pulled into Satori or Nirvikalpa beyond the seen cognitions. At that moment is Pristine Awareness which holds no personal form or relationship to the persona which was. Once the death is passed through it leaves in it's wake the illusions laid bare. Awakened Awareness or Pristine Consciousness is. There are no such things such as *enlightenment experiences*. Just as there is no such thing as *realizations*. Either the mindset of illusion is broken and imploded or exploded or it is not. It doesn't leave a wow what's next anywhere in sight. It is over and done. Nothing to search for and nowhere to be other than here and now. Satori , Nirvikalpa, Brahma-Nirvana, Nibbana, or Nirvikalpa all point to the same dismantling and death of the persona. There are two schools of thought one is that there is some type of gradual dismantling that may happen along the way. Then there is a sudden and total shift which kills or allows to die whatever was left. The other school holds that it happens all within one instance. It has been seen from here that both schools may be correct. In either case whether there are some preliminary structures which are shattered first and then the final residue is destroyed . Or that it occurs all in one sitting both yield the same finality. The end of the illusion of persona and it's previous identifications. Game over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 9:17 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Judi, Let me just check something. When you told me to "stand outside" I interpreted that to mean: Just make sure that whatever thing comes up next, it's seen. Including especially the imaginary audience-guy who seems to be watching and managing. See the whole thing. Is this the right idea? ********** No. "Standing outside" means "giving up". FIRST, the fish needs to say, Something's not quite right about this camel ride, And I'm feeling so damn thirsty. ********* Hafiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Bah, he's romanticizing animals. They are just people. > Not one is dissatisfied... Good God. He obviously never visited an animal shelter. > Not one kneels to another, Good grief. Did Walt ever meet a dog? - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 10:57 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd, I stand and look at them long and long.They do not sweat and whine about their condition,They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth. ********* Walt Whitman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > > > > But is this really true for everybody? What about> somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door> that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as> a child falls asleep?> > ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep!> > ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. > > ******** And let me explain something else here, people all the time have what they consider to be "enlightenment" experiences, but the difference between a person who has such experiences and one who what I call as actually "self realized" is that a self realized person is one who has conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through the actual *dying* process. And once that happens there is no going back and forth, all bridges have been burned in that dismantling process. That's why as you have probably heard some people say that actual "Enlightenment" only happens once. > It's a one time event. By its very nature it can only be so. And people continue to confuse these enlightenment experiences no matter how so-called *profound* they are, with actual Understanding itself. They are not anywhere near close. It's a completely total different thing. And so people continue to chase these enlightenment experiences. But that is not it.> > JudiSometimes the dismantling occurs over time. Consciously confronting mind emotion and body identity. This can break solidity until nothing is left but a fine strand which is broken then when pulled into Satori or Nirvikalpa beyond the seen cognitions. At that moment is Pristine Awareness which holds no personal form or relationship to the persona which was. Once the death is passed through it leaves in it's wake the illusions laid bare. Awakened Awareness or Pristine Consciousness is. There are no such things such as *enlightenment experiences*. Just as there is no such thing as *realizations*. Either the mindset of illusion is broken and imploded or exploded or it is not. It doesn't leave a wow what's next anywhere in sight. It is over and done. Nothing to search for and nowhere to be other than here and now. Satori , Nirvikalpa, Brahma-Nirvana, Nibbana, or Nirvikalpa all point to the same dismantling and death of the persona. There are two schools of thought one is that there is some type of gradual dismantling that may happen along the way. Then there is a sudden and total shift which kills or allows to die whatever was left. The other school holds that it happens all within one instance.It has been seen from here that both schools may be correct. In either case whether there are some preliminary structures which are shattered first and then the final residue is destroyed . Or that it occurs all in one sitting both yield the same finality. The end of the illusion of persona and it's previous identifications. Game over. ********** As the saying goes, it took me twenty years to become an overnight success. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Even more simply: Stay "outside" the imaginary "me." See it but don't get trapped in the illusion of it. Is that right? - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 11:17 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Judi, Let me just check something. When you told me to "stand outside" I interpreted that to mean: Just make sure that whatever thing comes up next, it's seen. Including especially the imaginary audience-guy who seems to be watching and managing. See the whole thing. Is this the right idea? Rob - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 10:57 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi *********** And let me say, I'm not here to play "Guru" - "co-dependent games" with anyone, I only ask that you understand yourselves. And in that *understanding* of yourselves, the world will be a nicer, a MUCH nicer place. ************* I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd, I stand and look at them long and long.They do not sweat and whine about their condition,They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth. ********* Walt Whitman ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > ********** And I did it for years, I know of what I speak, I had experiences of oneness up the kazoo, I was what you would call *advanced*. But let me tell you, after all those years of wonderful blisfful, extraoardinary experiences, I was totally surprised and knocked completely on my ass when the real thing came along. Totally blew me away to see the folly of it all of it all. So for you guys that meditate and are into blissful experience, fine, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with understanding, by ANY stretch of the imagination. Understanding undermines ALL experience, no matter how subtle or sublime. > > JudiOneness isn't even the start. Oneness may come through a psychological union or a feeling mode . Yes it can feel so wonderful and many take it to be the *real* thing. That oneness is not even close. It smacks of bliss and love but it has nothing to do with the death of persona or self.. ******* Yes, exactly, that's what I'm saying. "Feelings" are secondary and besides the point. And some expereinces do come with a certain amount of understanding, but alas, no "experience" is the understanding I'm talking about. It's such a non-event one could easily miss it. :-) Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 You pick it apart, you miss the point, silly! :-) Judi - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 9:29 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Bah, he's romanticizing animals. They are just people. > Not one is dissatisfied... Good God. He obviously never visited an animal shelter. > Not one kneels to another, Good grief. Did Walt ever meet a dog? - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 10:57 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd, I stand and look at them long and long.They do not sweat and whine about their condition,They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth. ********* Walt Whitman..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 D'oh. I totally misunderstood you. I gave up once involuntarily. Two years ago. That was when my glimpse happened. But effort and hoping came back. After that I couldn't meditate for six months because I knew that it was counter-productive. But gradually the memory wore off. Well, nothing to do then. > FIRST, the fish needs to say, > Something's not quite right about this camel ride, > And I'm feeling so damn thirsty. lol. -- Camel guy - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 11:27 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Even more simply: Stay "outside" the imaginary "me." See it but don't get trapped in the illusion of it. Is that right? ************ Let me put like this - once your're *out*, you won't be able to go *back*. Let it sink in...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Realization , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > > > > > > > > But is this really true for everybody? What about > > somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door > > that says " Abandon all hope ye who enter " as easily as > > a child falls asleep? > > > > ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through > his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery > without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's > about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! > > > > ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's > an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. > > > > ******** And let me explain something else here, people all > the time have what they consider to be " enlightenment " > experiences, but the difference between a person who has such > experiences and one who what I call as actually " self realized " is > that a self realized person is one who has conscioiusly > dismantled themselves, who have gone through the actual > *dying* process. And once that happens there is no going back > and forth, all bridges have been burned in that dismantling > process. That's why as you have probably heard some people > say that actual " Enlightenment " only happens once. > > It's a one time event. By its very nature it can only be so. > And people continue to confuse these enlightenment > experiences no matter how so-called *profound* they are, with > actual Understanding itself. They are not anywhere near close. > It's a completely total different thing. And so people continue to > chase these enlightenment experiences. But that is not it. > > > > Judi > > > > Sometimes the dismantling occurs over time. Consciously > confronting mind emotion and body identity. This can break > solidity until nothing is left but a fine strand which is broken > then when pulled into Satori or Nirvikalpa beyond the seen > cognitions. At that moment is Pristine Awareness which holds > no personal form or relationship to the persona which was. > > Once the death is passed through it leaves in it's wake the > illusions laid bare. Awakened Awareness or Pristine > Consciousness is. There are no such things such as > *enlightenment experiences*. Just as there is no such thing as > *realizations*. > > Either the mindset of illusion is broken and imploded or > exploded or it is not. It doesn't leave a wow what's next > anywhere in sight. It is over and done. Nothing to search for and > nowhere to be other than here and now. > > Satori , Nirvikalpa, Brahma-Nirvana, Nibbana, or Nirvikalpa all > point to the same dismantling and death of the persona. > > There are two schools of thought one is that there is some type > of gradual dismantling that may happen along the way. Then > there is a sudden and total shift which kills or allows to die > whatever was left. > > The other school holds that it happens all within one instance. > It has been seen from here that both schools may be correct. > In either case whether there are some preliminary structures > which are shattered first and then the final residue is destroyed .. > Or that it occurs all in one sitting both yield the same finality. > The end of the illusion of persona and it's previous > identifications. Game over. > > > ********** As the saying goes, it took me twenty years to become an overnight success. > > Judi Oh you rode the express train. Here it was 30 + years to ripen and fall. This is the problem when it is said there was nothing or is nothing to do. People believe that they can just sit and *get it* overnight. Doesn't happen that way, not even for Sri Ramana Maharishi. No overnight wonders or instantly enlightened moments which may be taken for Realization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > FIRST, the fish needs to say, > Something's not quite right about this camel ride, > And I'm feeling so damn thirsty. lol. -- Camel guy ********** Camel jockey are you? :-) I got to laugh, with my Michael over in Iraq now, he told his brother in law, Rocky, that he was gonna catch and spray paint his name on the side of a camel for him. So they're all watching the tv all the time, looking for camels running around with "Rocky" spray painted on its side. :-) Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > I got to laugh, with my Michael over in Iraq now, he > told his brother in law, Rocky, that he was gonna catch > and spray paint his name on the side of a camel for him. > So they're all watching the tv all the time, looking for camels > running around with "Rocky" spray painted on its side. :-) lol. How's Michael doing? - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 11:48 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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