Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > Bingo! But you see that's the LAST thing a person wants > to do is to see that in themselves, *as* themselves. Their > business is all about escape, avoiding and covering it up. > "Waking up" is about turning back *against* yourself, > *realizing* yourself, NOT trying to *make something* of > yourself. It takes GREAT maturity. Not for the timid or > faint of heart. Judi I know this is true for some people because in my own case, I've been driven to this as a last resort by pain. But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? - Judi Rhodes Realization Saturday, April 12, 2003 9:38 AM Re: Re: deb's ghost - Tanya Davis Realization Saturday, April 12, 2003 6:16 AM Re: deb's ghost Realization , "deb" <willett@h...> wrote:> given a choice of living, loving and learning, and> *walking around as the living dead, devoid of emotion and spewing out fear> and hatred*, I'll choose the first option every time )Isn't that exactly what you're doing here? Get honest for one second and feel it, taste it, the fear and hatred is oozing out of your every pore. Just look in the mirror. ********** Bingo! But you see that's the LAST thing a person wants to do is to see that in themselves, *as* themselves. Their business is all about escape, avoiding and covering it up. "Waking up" is about turning back *against* yourself, *realizing* yourself, NOT trying to *make something* of yourself. It takes GREAT maturity. Not for the timid or faint of heart. Judi ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 7:09 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi > Bingo! But you see that's the LAST thing a person wants > to do is to see that in themselves, *as* themselves. Their > business is all about escape, avoiding and covering it up. > "Waking up" is about turning back *against* yourself, > *realizing* yourself, NOT trying to *make something* of > yourself. It takes GREAT maturity. Not for the timid or > faint of heart. Judi I know this is true for some people because in my own case, I've been driven to this as a last resort by pain. But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. ******** And let me explain something else here, people all the time have what they consider to be "enlightenment" experiences, but the difference between a person who has such experiences and one who what I call as actually "self realized" is that a self realized person is one who has conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through the actual *dying* process. And once that happens there is no going back and forth, all bridges have been burned in that dismantling process. That's why as you have probably heard some people say that actual "Enlightenment" only happens once. It's a one time event. By its very nature it can only be so. And people continue to confuse these enlightenment experiences no matter how so-called *profound* they are, with actual Understanding itself. They are not anywhere near close. It's a completely total different thing. And so people continue to chase these enlightenment experiences. But that is not it. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > Nope, if you read his account of his going through his > death, he remained quite awake. I didn't say he fell asleep. I think you missed my point. I was reacting to this: > It takes GREAT maturity. Not for the timid or > faint of heart My question was, how does this apply to Ramana? Howwas he not-timid? This thing just happened to himeffortlessly. - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 9:32 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 7:09 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi > Bingo! But you see that's the LAST thing a person wants > to do is to see that in themselves, *as* themselves. Their > business is all about escape, avoiding and covering it up. > "Waking up" is about turning back *against* yourself, > *realizing* yourself, NOT trying to *make something* of > yourself. It takes GREAT maturity. Not for the timid or > faint of heart. Judi I know this is true for some people because in my own case, I've been driven to this as a last resort by pain. But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! Judi ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's > an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. Yeah, that much I understand. Sure, that applies to Sri Ramana. - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 9:36 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. ******** And let me explain something else here, people all the time have what they consider to be "enlightenment" experiences, but the difference between a person who has such experiences and one who what I call as actually "self realized" is that a self realized person is one who has conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through the actual *dying* process. And once that happens there is no going back and forth, all bridges have been burned in that dismantling process. That's why as you have probably heard some people say that actual "Enlightenment" only happens once. It's a one time event. By its very nature it can only be so. And people continue to confuse these enlightenment experiences no matter how so-called *profound* they are, with actual Understanding itself. They are not anywhere near close. It's a completely total different thing. And so people continue to chase these enlightenment experiences. But that is not it. ********** And I did it for years, I know of what I speak, I had experiences of oneness up the kazoo, I was what you would call *advanced*. But let me tell you, after all those years of wonderful blisfful, extraoardinary experiences, I was totally surprised and knocked completely on my ass when the real thing came along. Totally blew me away to see the folly of it all of it all. So for you guys that meditate and are into blissful experience, fine, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with understanding, by ANY stretch of the imagination. Understanding undermines ALL experience, no matter how subtle or sublime. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 7:55 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi > Nope, if you read his account of his going through his > death, he remained quite awake. I didn't say he fell asleep. I think you missed my point. I was reacting to this: > It takes GREAT maturity. Not for the timid or > faint of heart My question was, how does this apply to Ramana? Howwas he not-timid? This thing just happened to himeffortlessly. ********* Yes, there was no *effort* on my part either. I had no choice in the situation. When you're at the end of your life, you're at the end of your life. Where lies the effort in that? There isn't any. Understanding becomes your only option, you're thrown into it. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Dear Sri Judi, > ******** And let me explain something else here, people all > the time have what they consider to be "enlightenment" > experiences, but the difference between a person who has > such experiences and one who what I call as actually "self > realized" is that a self realized person is one who has > conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through > the actual *dying* process.... > ...********** And I did it for years, I know of what I speak, I > had experiences of oneness up the kazoo, I was what you > would call *advanced*. But let me tell you, after all those years > of wonderful blisfful, extraoardinary experiences, I was totally > surprised and knocked completely on my ass when the real > thing came along. Totally blew me away to see the folly of it > all of it all. So for you guys that meditate and are into blissful > experience, fine, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with > understanding, by ANY stretch of the imagination. Understanding > undermines ALL experience, no matter how subtle or sublime. Holy moly. These are the words of the Guru. I feel sorry for the people on this list who don't see what is present here. This is like the old stories about enlightened sages who nobody recognizes because they look like crazy people or whatever. You read these old stories and you pat yourself on the back because you know that if YOU had been there back in 1300 in Tibet, YOU would have been wise enough to know that the weird guy down the street who throws shit at everybody is really an enlightened sage. But you see, when it happens to you in 2003, you don't recognize it. > consciously dismantled CONSCIOUSLY DISMANTLED. I heard you, Judi-ji. At your feet (no irony here, not the least bit) Rob - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 10:03 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi But is this really true for everybody? What about somebody like Ramana, who slipped through the door that says "Abandon all hope ye who enter" as easily as a child falls asleep? ******** Nope, if you read his account of his going through his death, he remained quite awake. Like going through surgery without benefit of anaesthesia, is the way Trungpa put it. It's about waking up, understanding, NOT going to sleep! ******** In other words, your *participation* is required. It's an *intelligent* process, one of undermining/understanding. ******** And let me explain something else here, people all the time have what they consider to be "enlightenment" experiences, but the difference between a person who has such experiences and one who what I call as actually "self realized" is that a self realized person is one who has conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through the actual *dying* process. And once that happens there is no going back and forth, all bridges have been burned in that dismantling process. That's why as you have probably heard some people say that actual "Enlightenment" only happens once. It's a one time event. By its very nature it can only be so. And people continue to confuse these enlightenment experiences no matter how so-called *profound* they are, with actual Understanding itself. They are not anywhere near close. It's a completely total different thing. And so people continue to chase these enlightenment experiences. But that is not it. ********** And I did it for years, I know of what I speak, I had experiences of oneness up the kazoo, I was what you would call *advanced*. But let me tell you, after all those years of wonderful blisfful, extraoardinary experiences, I was totally surprised and knocked completely on my ass when the real thing came along. Totally blew me away to see the folly of it all of it all. So for you guys that meditate and are into blissful experience, fine, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with understanding, by ANY stretch of the imagination. Understanding undermines ALL experience, no matter how subtle or sublime. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 - Rob Sacks Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 8:28 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Dear Sri Judi, > ******** And let me explain something else here, people all > the time have what they consider to be "enlightenment" > experiences, but the difference between a person who has > such experiences and one who what I call as actually "self > realized" is that a self realized person is one who has > conscioiusly dismantled themselves, who have gone through > the actual *dying* process.... > ...********** And I did it for years, I know of what I speak, I > had experiences of oneness up the kazoo, I was what you > would call *advanced*. But let me tell you, after all those years > of wonderful blisfful, extraoardinary experiences, I was totally > surprised and knocked completely on my ass when the real > thing came along. Totally blew me away to see the folly of it > all of it all. So for you guys that meditate and are into blissful > experience, fine, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with > understanding, by ANY stretch of the imagination. Understanding > undermines ALL experience, no matter how subtle or sublime. Holy moly. These are the words of the Guru. I feel sorry for the people on this list who don't see what is present here. This is like the old stories about enlightened sages who nobody recognizes because they look like crazy people or whatever. You read these old stories and you pat yourself on the back because you know that if YOU had been there back in 1300 in Tibet, YOU would have been wise enough to know that the weird guy down the street who throws shit at everybody is really an enlightened sage. But you see, when it happens to you in 2003, you don't recognize it. > consciously dismantled CONSCIOUSLY DISMANTLED. I heard you, Judi-ji. At your feet (no irony here, not the least bit) Rob *********** And let me say, I'm not here to play "Guru" - "co-dependent games" with anyone, I only ask that you understand yourselves. And in that *understanding* of yourselves, the world will be a nicer, a MUCH nicer place. Amen! Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Dear Judi, > *********** And let me say, I'm not here to play "Guru" - > "co-dependent games" with anyone, I only ask that you > understand yourselves. And in that *understanding* of > yourselves, the world will be a nicer, a MUCH nicer place. I know you're not interested in that type of stuff. I wouldn't say it if I thought it interested you. It was meant for the other people on the list. Besides, it's fun to talk that way occasionally. How often do you get a chance to do it? Rob - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 10:51 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 *********** And let me say, I'm not here to play "Guru" - "co-dependent games" with anyone, I only ask that you understand yourselves. And in that *understanding* of yourselves, the world will be a nicer, a MUCH nicer place. ************* I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd, I stand and look at them long and long.They do not sweat and whine about their condition,They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth. ********* Walt Whitman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Judi, Let me just check something. When you told me to "stand outside" I interpreted that to mean: Just make sure that whatever thing comes up next, it's seen. Including especially the imaginary audience-guy who seems to be watching and managing. See the whole thing. Is this the right idea? Rob - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, April 14, 2003 10:57 PM Re: Re: deb's ghost / Judi *********** And let me say, I'm not here to play "Guru" - "co-dependent games" with anyone, I only ask that you understand yourselves. And in that *understanding* of yourselves, the world will be a nicer, a MUCH nicer place. ************* I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd, I stand and look at them long and long.They do not sweat and whine about their condition,They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth. ********* Walt Whitman ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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