Hope & ripening

[Guest guest]

Murali and b's recent exchanges are instructive:

 

Murali: Let me ask the same question I asked Judi. Did you have this kind of

understanding or intuition ever since the birth of this body/mind entity?

Was there at any stage, a " somebody " who had the sense of doership before

losing that sense accidentally or otherwise? Please treat this as an earnest

seeker's question however stupid it may seem from your point of view.

 

B: ......you imagine yourself to be an earnest seeker, and thus prolong the

seeking, which is actually the activity of separation itself.

 

Gary: b offers one possible interpretation. Another is that M sees himself

as an earnest seeker because he is one, that his seeking is the effect

rather than cause of his separation, and that his seeking is a ripening that

will eventually bear fruit.

 

Murali: My misery is that I see a separation. Hence the question.

 

B: ....your misery is that you enjoy " your misery " , otherwise why bother to

claim it?

 

Gary: b offers one possible cause of M's misery. Other possible causes are

1) M is lost in a maze and doesn't know how to get out

2) M fears that not claiming his misery would cause even greater suffering

3) M doesn't understand what claiming his misery means and so he doesn't

know how to stop claiming it

4) M is an adolescent, his parents are fully Realized, and he is rebelling

5) etc.

Moral: even full Realization is not a substitute for careful psychological

analysis, any more than it is a substitute for physics or any other human

activity; Realization is " merely " the non-clinging relationship each

individual has to her/his experience, which must be dealt with according to

natural laws.

Question: I repeat the question I asked M but to which he has not responded:

When you say you seek nonduality, what exactly do you imagine yourself

seeking? For some people, taking that question seriously can be a jnana

yogic approach to Realization. For taking that question seriously will lead

to interminable blind alleys that will eventually turn the questioner from

the question to her/himself.

 

Murali: If you don't see this separation why bother to answer?

 

B: .......most people just can't shut up, me included!

 

Gary: This answer is either a cop out or an indication that b is not to be

taken seriously.

Cop out -- if b means his reply to be taken seriously, then he's

contradicting himself; he's avoiding the logic of M's question and refusing

to be held accountable for what he says.

Non-serious -- if he means that there is no reason behind his replies, and

therefore he cannot be held accountable for what he says, then his replies

are pointless and can be dismissed out of hand.

 

B then shares his experience of spontaneous Realization: He had recently

turned 8, and was returning from his first week away from home, at a

Catholic Youth Organization Summer Camp near the ...... just going along,

pretending.

 

Murali: This is good stuff.

 

Gary: Yes it is, but it also anecdotal. To quote its author " " A billion

people could read his anecdote and come up with a billion different

interpretations. " b provides no method for agreeing on the nature of his

experience nor for generalizing from it. Assuming his experience was

spontaneous, in the sense of lacking previous ripening, b provides no basis

to conclude that everyone else's Realization must be spontaneous as well.

 

Murali: I can see an answer in it. And it might give me a ray of hope as

well. But, somehow I feel, the answer is not as important as the question.

And somewhere I feel hoping no more better than being hopeless.

 

Gary: Truly, the answer is not as important as the *experience* of

questioning itself, since the answer is merely (static) content, whereas the

experience of questioning contains within it the experience of the

questioner (emptiness). For the same reason, hoping may or may not be better

than being hopeless. If the focus is on what (content) is being hoped for,

then it truly is no better than hopelessness, since it is " looking for love

in all the wrong places " . If, however, the focus is on the *experience* of

hoping itself, then it can lead to experiencing the hoper (emptiness).

 

Murali: Still... What is your comment on the following statement by

Nisargadatta Maharaj?

 

" ...realization is explosive. It takes place spontaneously, or at the

slightest hint. The quick is not better than the slow. Slow ripening and

rapid flowering alternate. Both are natural and right. "

 

Gary: Being awake to his own psychological processes, and not dominated by a

prior theory of Realization, Nisargadatta is aware of both spontaneity and

ripening in his own spiritual development.

 

To Murali and b: I would like to copy this exchange to another online group,

if you would permit me.

 

Gary Schouborg

Performance Consulting

Walnut Creek, CA

garyscho

 

Publications and professional services:

http://home.att.net/~garyscho

[Guest guest]

Realization, Gary Schouborg <garyscho@a...> wrote:

 

> Murali and b's recent exchanges are instructive:

 

<snip>

 

> To Murali and b: I would like to copy this exchange to another

online group,

> if you would permit me.

>

 

 

 

....slow day, hmmm?

 

actually, would rather you not, since what was said here was intended

for here alone, at that moment, and not for general broadcast. given

the same questions, etc., there may be completely different (and

perhaps even contradictory) responses today, and then again tomorrow.

it feels as if you would like to wrap some ribbon around the air, Mon

Cher! LOL!!!!

[Guest guest]

Realization, Gary Schouborg <garyscho@a...> wrote:

>

> To Murali and b: I would like to copy this exchange to another

online group,

> if you would permit me.

 

I have no problems whatsoever.

 

'B' has a point in his reply. Every question gets a response based

on the background and maturity of the questioner and may not be

applicable in another context.

 

Still, why not if it can help " someone " else in " ripening " ? :-)

 

Murali

[Guest guest]

Realization, Gary Schouborg <garyscho@a...> wrote:

> Question: I repeat the question I asked M but to which he has not

responded:

> When you say you seek nonduality, what exactly do you imagine

yourself

> seeking?

 

In fact you yourself had expressed my views(!) about non-duality in

the same paragraph where you had raised this question. About the

ocean, waves and shift of attention or focus in consciousness etc.

And absence of the sense of " I " and there by absence of sense

of " you " and " he " ...

 

Thought no need to repeat it.

 

I didn't say that I am 'seeking' (the state of) non-duality. What is

there to seek when it is said to be the natural state and is never

lost. My attempt is to know that which is obscuring this natural

state from being felt at the core. And that, they say, is none other

than myself!

 

At least conceptually I came to know that this false shadowy self is

causing all the miseries (or happiness) just by identifying itself

with thoughts, actions and things. Once this off shoot is cut off,

then there is just " happenings " with nobody claiming ownership and

nobody to be miserable.

 

My seeking is into 'myself' and the 'I-lessness' of those who claim

to be in this state. And my efforts are to deplete the sense of 'I'

to set stage for the 'accident' to happen.

 

Murali

[Guest guest]

Realization, " Murali " <murali@g...> wrote:

 

> Still, why not if it can help " someone " else in " ripening " ? :-)

 

 

 

.......Ho!

 

Glad you used quotation marks above! :-)

 

Helping --

 

This is the game that can never be won.

This is the game in which the `ego' splits itself in two

and then pretends to be a helping-somebody

helping a pretend somebody-who-needs-help.

 

Yikes!

[Guest guest]

Realization, " Murali " <murali@g...> wrote:

 

> My seeking is into 'myself' and the 'I-lessness' of those who claim

> to be in this state. And my efforts are to deplete the sense

of 'I'

> to set stage for the 'accident' to happen.

 

 

 

.......this doesn't sound like much fun at all!

 

btw, do you actually think that mind can set the stage for its own

dethronement?

that it will merrily go about " depleting " itself?

 

LOL!!!!

 

 

we are so funny sometimes!!!!!!!

 

 

LOL!!!!