Guest guest Posted September 13, 2001 Report Share Posted September 13, 2001 Hi, The good old Gita.......... TEXT 5 na hi kascit ksanam apijatu tisthaty akarma-krtkaryate hy avasah karmasarvah prakrti-jair gunaih WORD FOR WORD na -- nor; hi -- certainly; kascit -- anyone; ksanam -- a moment; api -- also; jatu -- at any time; tisthati -- remains; akarma-krt -- without doing something; karyate -- is forced to do; hi -- certainly; avasah -- helplessly; karma -- work; sarvah -- all; prakrti-jaih -- born of the modes of material nature; gunaih -- by the qualities. TRANSLATION Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment ---------- TEXTS 4-5 buddhir jnanam asammohahksama satyam damah samahsukham duhkham bhavo 'bhavobhayam cabhayam eva ca ahimsa samata tustistapo danam yaso 'yasahbhavanti bhava bhutanammatta eva prthag-vidhah WORD FOR WORD buddhih -- intelligence; jnanam -- knowledge; asammohah -- freedom from doubt; ksama -- forgiveness; satyam -- truthfulness; damah -- control of the senses; samah -- control of the mind; sukham -- happiness; duhkham -- distress; bhavah -- birth; abhavah -- death; bhayam -- fear; ca -- also; abhayam -- fearlessness; eva -- also; ca -- and; ahimsa -- nonviolence; samata -- equilibrium; tustih -- satisfaction; tapah -- penance; danam -- charity; yasah -- fame; ayasah -- infamy; bhavanti -- come about; bhavah -- natures; bhutanam -- of living entities; mattah -- from Me; eva -- certainly; prthak-vidhah -- variously arranged. TRANSLATION Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, control of the senses, control of the mind, happiness and distress, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy -- all these various qualities of living beings are created by Me alone. PURPORT The different qualities of living entities, be they good or bad, are all created by Krishna. ------------------ San: Probably the earliest pointing to the fact the the human entity is nothing but a conditioned, a programmed biological computer, helpless but to follow the conditioning-in-the moment. A "Osama Ben Laden" and a "George Bush" are helpless but to enact out as per their innate conditioning in the moment, towards the unfolding of the Cosmic Dance. --------- TEXT 8 prakrtim svam avastabhyavisrjami punah punahbhuta-gramam imam krtsnamavasam prakrter vasat WORD FOR WORD prakrtim -- the material nature; svam -- of My personal Self; avastabhya -- entering into; visrjami -- I create; punah punah -- again and again; bhuta-gramam -- all the cosmic manifestations; imam -- these; krtsnam -- in total; avasam -- automatically; prakrteh -- of the force of nature; vasat -- under obligation. TRANSLATION The whole cosmic order is under Me. Under My will it is automatically manifested again and again, and under My will it is annihilated at the end. ---------- San: There is no individual will in question whatsoever. Cheers Sandeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Dear Sandeep, Thanks very much for passing this along. I too am fascinated by the history of the idea that human beings are machines that make decisions like computers do, by processing input from our environment. It seems remarkable to me that people were able to devise this idea more than two thousand years ago, when machines were far simpler and computers were beyond imagination. Even today, people try to find some alternative. The Penrose stuff, for example, about quantum effects in the brain. he wants to find something non-determined. But quantum effects are random. Those are the two choices: either our decisions are determined or random. What else can they be? As Marvin Minsky famously said, "Brains are computers made from meat." But I'm not sure that it follows from this, that the feeling of agonizing over a decision, the feeling of volition, does not causally affect the actions eventually taken. Trivially, it can be seen that the feeling of volition *does* affect actions taken, because it makes people toss and turn sleeplessly at night, etc. > Probably the earliest pointing to the fact the > the human entity is nothing but a conditioned, > a programmed biological computer, helpless > but to follow the conditioning-in-the moment. Is it really? I would have thought the idea was mentioned somewhere in the early Upanishads. > A "Osama Ben Laden" and a "George Bush" are > helpless but to enact out as per their innate > conditioning in the moment, towards the unfolding > of the Cosmic Dance. Helpless but responsive to the turnings of the other gears. Saying they are responsible is a way of nudging them with other gears, isn't it? Best regards, Rob - Sandeep Chatterjee Realization Friday, September 14, 2001 12:45 AM Gita Hi, The good old Gita.......... TEXT 5 na hi kascit ksanam apijatu tisthaty akarma-krtkaryate hy avasah karmasarvah prakrti-jair gunaih WORD FOR WORD na -- nor; hi -- certainly; kascit -- anyone; ksanam -- a moment; api -- also; jatu -- at any time; tisthati -- remains; akarma-krt -- without doing something; karyate -- is forced to do; hi -- certainly; avasah -- helplessly; karma -- work; sarvah -- all; prakrti-jaih -- born of the modes of material nature; gunaih -- by the qualities. TRANSLATION Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment ---------- TEXTS 4-5 buddhir jnanam asammohahksama satyam damah samahsukham duhkham bhavo 'bhavobhayam cabhayam eva ca ahimsa samata tustistapo danam yaso 'yasahbhavanti bhava bhutanammatta eva prthag-vidhah WORD FOR WORD buddhih -- intelligence; jnanam -- knowledge; asammohah -- freedom from doubt; ksama -- forgiveness; satyam -- truthfulness; damah -- control of the senses; samah -- control of the mind; sukham -- happiness; duhkham -- distress; bhavah -- birth; abhavah -- death; bhayam -- fear; ca -- also; abhayam -- fearlessness; eva -- also; ca -- and; ahimsa -- nonviolence; samata -- equilibrium; tustih -- satisfaction; tapah -- penance; danam -- charity; yasah -- fame; ayasah -- infamy; bhavanti -- come about; bhavah -- natures; bhutanam -- of living entities; mattah -- from Me; eva -- certainly; prthak-vidhah -- variously arranged. TRANSLATION Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, control of the senses, control of the mind, happiness and distress, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy -- all these various qualities of living beings are created by Me alone. PURPORT The different qualities of living entities, be they good or bad, are all created by Krishna. ------------------ San: Probably the earliest pointing to the fact the the human entity is nothing but a conditioned, a programmed biological computer, helpless but to follow the conditioning-in-the moment. A "Osama Ben Laden" and a "George Bush" are helpless but to enact out as per their innate conditioning in the moment, towards the unfolding of the Cosmic Dance. --------- TEXT 8 prakrtim svam avastabhyavisrjami punah punahbhuta-gramam imam krtsnamavasam prakrter vasat WORD FOR WORD prakrtim -- the material nature; svam -- of My personal Self; avastabhya -- entering into; visrjami -- I create; punah punah -- again and again; bhuta-gramam -- all the cosmic manifestations; imam -- these; krtsnam -- in total; avasam -- automatically; prakrteh -- of the force of nature; vasat -- under obligation. TRANSLATION The whole cosmic order is under Me. Under My will it is automatically manifested again and again, and under My will it is annihilated at the end. ---------- San: There is no individual will in question whatsoever. Cheers Sandeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Hi Rob, - Rob Sacks Realization Friday, September 14, 2001 10:15 PM Re: Gita Dear Sandeep, Thanks very much for passing this along. I too am fascinated by the history of the idea that human beings are machines that make decisions like computers do, by processing input from our environment. It seems remarkable to me that people were able to devise this idea more than two thousand years ago, when machines were far simpler and computers were beyond imagination. San: The sages of yore, looked for the individual self and found that nothing like this existed in phenomenality. And the beauty is that, the essence of all warring religions of today, is this discovery. The absence of the individual self. Let thy will be done. Inshallah- (God willing) Twamay Karta, Twamay Bhokta (You the Supreme Self is the doer, You the Supreme Self is the experiencer) Suffering alone exists, none who suffer;The deed there is, but not doer thereof;Nirvana is, but no one seeking it;The Path there is, but none who travel it. ------- Even today, people try to find some alternative. The Penrose stuff, for example, about quantum effects in the brain. he wants to find something non-determined. But quantum effects are random. Those are the two choices: either our decisions are determined or random. What else can they be? As Marvin Minsky famously said, "Brains are computers made from meat." But I'm not sure that it follows from this, that the feeling of agonizing over a decision, the feeling of volition, does not causally affect the actions eventually taken. Trivially, it can be seen that the feeling of volition *does* affect actions taken, because it makes people toss and turn sleeplessly at night, etc. San: Indeed that happens. What I am suggesting is that the very process of "agonizing" is once again thoughts, thoughts of a particular kind. And these thoughts in the moment (termed as agonizing) is once again the output of the conditioning-in the moment. The same "input" form the external environ, which made you agonize, as to what to do, at different times, would produce different levels of agony or even no agony at all, isn't it? The same "input" from the external environ to different psycho-somatic organisms, produce different types and levels of agony. The crux is that, "outputs" are produced, outputs like compassion, hatred, anger, agony, love, indifference, indecisiveness, whatever and their corresponding actions (which is nothing but the actualization of these thoughts) as per the existing conditioning -in-the moment. There is no "entity" involved whatsoever in the production of these "outputs". And this is not an intellectual premise. It is verifiable, through a simple exercise of unraveling actions about which one is convinced were one's very own action, something which I have shared here on the List. > Probably the earliest pointing to the fact the > the human entity is nothing but a conditioned, > a programmed biological computer, helpless > but to follow the conditioning-in-the moment. Is it really? I would have thought the idea was mentioned somewhere in the early Upanishads. San: Indeed, the Upanishads elude to the same Truth. > A "Osama Ben Laden" and a "George Bush" are > helpless but to enact out as per their innate > conditioning in the moment, towards the unfolding > of the Cosmic Dance. Helpless but responsive to the turnings of the other gears. Saying they are responsible is a way of nudging them with other gears, isn't it? San: Indeed the human biological computer is responsive. When it is not responsive, it is dead. Cheers Sandeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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