I have killed, you are the instrument which I manifest and use for this purpose

September 13, 2001

Hi Rob,

You had asked about the reference in the Gita for my earlier prattlings.

Here goes...

Chapter 11.......

TEXT 33 tasmat tvam uttistha yaso labhasvajitva satrun bhunksva rajyam samrddhammayaivaite nihatah purvam evanimitta-matram bhava savya-sacin WORD FOR WORD

tasmat -- therefore; tvam -- you; uttistha -- get up; yasah -- fame; labhasva -- gain; jitva -- conquering; satrun -- enemies; bhunksva -- enjoy; rajyam -- kingdom; samrddham -- flourishing; maya -- by Me; eva -- certainly; ete -- all these; nihatah -- killed; purvam eva -- by previous arrangement; nimitta-matram- just the cause; bhava -- become; savya-sacin -- O Savyasaci.

TRANSLATION Therefore get up. Prepare to fight and win glory. Conquer your enemies and enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasaci, can be but an instrument in the fight.

PURPORT Savya-sacin refers to one who can shoot arrows very expertly in the field; thus Arjuna is addressed as an expert warrior capable of delivering arrows to kill his enemies. "Just become an instrument": nimitta-matram. This word is also very significant. The whole world is moving according to the plan of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and being actualized through the billions and billions of "instruments".

---------

dronam ca bhismam cajayadratham cakarnam tathanyan api yodha-viranmaya hatams tvam jahi ma vyathisthayudhyasva jetasi rane sapatnan

WORD FOR WORD dronam ca -- also Drona; bhismam ca -- also Bhisma; jayadratham ca -- also Jayadratha; karnam -- Karna; tatha -- also; anyan -- others; api -- certainly; yodha-viran -- great warriors; maya -- by Me; hatan -- already killed; tvam -- you; jahi -- destroy; ma -- do not; vyathisthah -- be disturbed; yudhyasva -- just fight; jeta asi -- you will conquer; rane -- in the fight; sapatnan -- enemies.

TRANSLATION

Drona, Bhisma, Jayadratha, Karna and the other great warriors have already been destroyed by Me. Therefore, kill them and do not be disturbed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies in battle.

--------------

Rob, it's not surprising that commentators, even one as erudite as Radhakrishna, comment from within their conditioning.

Hinduism is a supposed to be a religion of Ahimsa, global peace, how can the commentator let the focus be on such verses which talk about going ahead and killing etc etc.

Secondly the narrowing down onto this clear affirmation of "nimitta-matram", is the clearest indication of the illusoriness of the individual self, the individual entity and it's supposedly possession of volition to do something or not to do something.

Thank you for "inputting" this body-mind complex to re-visit the Gita.

I found, probably the earliest reference of a conditioned biological computer as the human entity, which I am posting in a separate post.

Cheers

Sandeep

September 14, 2001

Dear Sandeep,

Thanks a bunch for both Gita messages. I don't

think I would have noticed this "have killed" no matter

how many times I read the Gita. Blinded to it by

expectation due to the numerous reiterated statements

that "they do not die" in Book 2.

> Rob, it's not surprising that commentators, even

> one as erudite as Radhakrishna, comment from

> within their conditioning. Hinduism is a supposed to be

> a religion of Ahimsa, global peace, how can the

> commentator let the focus be on such verses which

> talk about going ahead and killing etc etc.

Do any modern commentators accept the obvious

meaning of the Gita, or do they all push it aside in

favor of symbolic ones?

I suppose Mahatma Gandhi might be the most

extreme example of trying to avoid the literal meaning

of the Gita. (As you know but others may not, this

supreme apostle of non-violence took the Gita as his

Guru -- a book whose basic plot consists of God

convincing a reluctant warrior that it's okay to kill.)

He writes:

"Even in 1888-89, when I first became acquainted

with the Gita, I felt that it was not a historical work,

but that, under the guise of physical warfare, it

described the duel that perpetually went on in the

hearts of mankind, and that physical warfare was

brought in merely to make the description of the

internal duel more alluring." (The Bhagavad Gita,

Introduction, para. 8.)

> Secondly the narrowing down onto this clear

> affirmation of "nimitta-matram", is the clearest

> indication of the illusoriness of the individual self,

> the individual entity and it's supposedly possession

> of volition to do something or not to do something.

Radhakrishnan translates it "merely the occasion,"

perhaps trying to avoid implying anything about

cause and effect. (I think the normal word for

cause is something beginning with "kar", isn't it?)

> Thank you for "inputting" this body-mind complex to

> re-visit the Gita. I found, probably the earliest reference

> of a conditioned biological computer as the human

> entity, which I am posting in a separate post.

You're welcome! And thank you for providing input to

this computer. And for accepting this computer's output.

Cheers,

Rob.

-

Sandeep Chatterjee

Realization

Friday, September 14, 2001 12:23 AM

I have killed, you are the instrument which I manifest and use for this purpose

Hi Rob,

You had asked about the reference in the Gita for my earlier prattlings.

Here goes...

Chapter 11.......

TEXT 33 tasmat tvam uttistha yaso labhasvajitva satrun bhunksva rajyam samrddhammayaivaite nihatah purvam evanimitta-matram bhava savya-sacin WORD FOR WORD

tasmat -- therefore; tvam -- you; uttistha -- get up; yasah -- fame; labhasva -- gain; jitva -- conquering; satrun -- enemies; bhunksva -- enjoy; rajyam -- kingdom; samrddham -- flourishing; maya -- by Me; eva -- certainly; ete -- all these; nihatah -- killed; purvam eva -- by previous arrangement; nimitta-matram- just the cause; bhava -- become; savya-sacin -- O Savyasaci.

TRANSLATION Therefore get up. Prepare to fight and win glory. Conquer your enemies and enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasaci, can be but an instrument in the fight.

PURPORT Savya-sacin refers to one who can shoot arrows very expertly in the field; thus Arjuna is addressed as an expert warrior capable of delivering arrows to kill his enemies. "Just become an instrument": nimitta-matram. This word is also very significant. The whole world is moving according to the plan of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and being actualized through the billions and billions of "instruments".

---------

dronam ca bhismam cajayadratham cakarnam tathanyan api yodha-viranmaya hatams tvam jahi ma vyathisthayudhyasva jetasi rane sapatnan

WORD FOR WORD dronam ca -- also Drona; bhismam ca -- also Bhisma; jayadratham ca -- also Jayadratha; karnam -- Karna; tatha -- also; anyan -- others; api -- certainly; yodha-viran -- great warriors; maya -- by Me; hatan -- already killed; tvam -- you; jahi -- destroy; ma -- do not; vyathisthah -- be disturbed; yudhyasva -- just fight; jeta asi -- you will conquer; rane -- in the fight; sapatnan -- enemies.

TRANSLATION

Drona, Bhisma, Jayadratha, Karna and the other great warriors have already been destroyed by Me. Therefore, kill them and do not be disturbed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies in battle.

--------------

Rob, it's not surprising that commentators, even one as erudite as Radhakrishna, comment from within their conditioning.

Hinduism is a supposed to be a religion of Ahimsa, global peace, how can the commentator let the focus be on such verses which talk about going ahead and killing etc etc.

Secondly the narrowing down onto this clear affirmation of "nimitta-matram", is the clearest indication of the illusoriness of the individual self, the individual entity and it's supposedly possession of volition to do something or not to do something.

Thank you for "inputting" this body-mind complex to re-visit the Gita.

I found, probably the earliest reference of a conditioned biological computer as the human entity, which I am posting in a separate post.

Cheers

Sandeep

September 14, 2001

Hi Rob,

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Friday, September 14, 2001 07:48 PM

Re: I have killed, you are the instrument which I manifest and use for this purpose

Dear Sandeep,

Thanks a bunch for both Gita messages. I don't

think I would have noticed this "have killed" no matter

how many times I read the Gita. Blinded to it by

expectation due to the numerous reiterated statements

that "they do not die" in Book 2.

> Rob, it's not surprising that commentators, even

> one as erudite as Radhakrishna, comment from

> within their conditioning. Hinduism is a supposed to be

> a religion of Ahimsa, global peace, how can the

> commentator let the focus be on such verses which

> talk about going ahead and killing etc etc.

Do any modern commentators accept the obvious

meaning of the Gita, or do they all push it aside in

favor of symbolic ones?

San:

Osho had laid it bare, in his commentary, as far as I recall.

--------

I suppose Mahatma Gandhi might be the most

extreme example of trying to avoid the literal meaning

of the Gita. (As you know but others may not, this

supreme apostle of non-violence took the Gita as his

Guru -- a book whose basic plot consists of God

convincing a reluctant warrior that it's okay to kill.)

San:

Yes MG read in the Gita, what his conditioning allowed him to read.

Incidentally your statement "God convincing a reluctant warrior that it's okay to kill" is not quite right.

The Gita is a dialogue, where what is being conveyed, that the entity is a mere nimitta-matram, an instrument through which divinity functions, whatever be the form of that functioning.

---------

<SNIP>

> Secondly the narrowing down onto this clear

> affirmation of "nimitta-matram", is the clearest

> indication of the illusoriness of the individual self,

> the individual entity and it's supposedly possession

> of volition to do something or not to do something.

Radhakrishnan translates it "merely the occasion,"

perhaps trying to avoid implying anything about

cause and effect. (I think the normal word for

cause is something beginning with "kar", isn't it?)

San:

As is evident here on this List, the fact that the entity whom we all thought to be our essential identity, is illusory, does not exist, this is probably the most difficult premise to face.

And it is not just Eastern spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

The growing findings in the area of behaviourial science , genetics, Quantum Mechanics, in the West, is exposing the myth of an entity with a free will to act or not to act.

Some of these findings, I have been posting here.

Dancing energy patterns.

Take a plain piece of paper and draw two criss-crossing lines.

At the point of the crossing, there appears a point.

There is none, but the illusion of one is apparent.

Simlilay, though more complex in nature, vibrating and criss crossing energy patterns is what throws up the illusion of "solidity" of matter, whether that be a cow or a human being or a supernova.

Cheers

Sandeep