Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 Leaf queried: > Hello everone, > I am going to be a little brave here, hehe, and say something that some might > not like. We have been talking about the united states, how terrible this > is, and what those people did to us, right? Well, now, open up your mind for > one second, and think, think of the pain and suffering these people who did > this were going through. Have you ever been very mad, and you felt as though > you could just do some kind of violent thing, but, you sa, you would never, > well, these people were like that, but they were pushed over the edge, and > they couldn't help it. They were helpless I say. They were so full of anger > and hatred and all of this. With respect, Leaf, I don't think you have a grip on what happened. I have four problems with your concerns. First, terrorists are not just people in a snit. Even if we supposed that they were experiencing great pain and suffering, don't you think they were over-reacting? Second, there are only so many minutes in a day. Given the suffering endured by those in NY, why are you spending time wringing your hands over the pain and suffering of the terrorists? This seems a misplaced focus to me, like straining at gnats and swallowing a camel. > I do not think that war is a good thing for > this, or any other thing. War only makes it worse. Hatred towards them > doesn't help any, to send love to them, and good feelings to them. It will > effect them. If we project hatrec and anger to them, the universal > consciousness will be filled more with hatred and anger, and more of these > events will happen. Third, your psychology is wrong. Neville Chamberlain sent all sort of love vibes toward Hitler and it didn't work. Not everyone is susceptible to love. Enlightenment isn't just a matter of dwelling on kind thoughts, it also faces unpleasant truths, a strategy I wholeheartedly recommend to you. > So, if not for these people who did this, do it for all > humans i8n the future, for the good of everyone. Hatred and violence does no > good, only love. > Fourth, you fail to distinguish between vengeance and defense, between emotion and action. There's a Zen story ‹ sorry, don't recall the master's name ‹ where some master is asked what he would do if someone threatened to kill his family. He replied that he'd kill him compassionately. You don't have to hate your enemy ‹ and you and Wieland have wisely noted that we are the first victims of our own hatred. The issue is what to do to prevent further carnage. Best but practical wishes, Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 My feeling is that the aim of the terrorists is to immobilize the people of America. The only way to thwart them is to carry on, hug your friends and family and increase, not decrease, the communication with each other. Dang it, they WILL NOT stop us. Onward. Hug your friends and family. Tell someone you love them. That is something that everyone can do. Gelf - " Gary Schouborg " <garyscho " Realization " <Realization > Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:48 PM Afghanistan Leaf queried: > Hello everone, > I am going to be a little brave here, hehe, and say something that some might > not like. We have been talking about the united states, how terrible this > is, and what those people did to us, right? Well, now, open up your mind for > one second, and think, think of the pain and suffering these people who did > this were going through. Have you ever been very mad, and you felt as though > you could just do some kind of violent thing, but, you sa, you would never, > well, these people were like that, but they were pushed over the edge, and > they couldn't help it. They were helpless I say. They were so full of anger > and hatred and all of this. With respect, Leaf, I don't think you have a grip on what happened. I have four problems with your concerns. First, terrorists are not just people in a snit. Even if we supposed that they were experiencing great pain and suffering, don't you think they were over-reacting? Second, there are only so many minutes in a day. Given the suffering endured by those in NY, why are you spending time wringing your hands over the pain and suffering of the terrorists? This seems a misplaced focus to me, like straining at gnats and swallowing a camel. > I do not think that war is a good thing for > this, or any other thing. War only makes it worse. Hatred towards them > doesn't help any, to send love to them, and good feelings to them. It will > effect them. If we project hatrec and anger to them, the universal > consciousness will be filled more with hatred and anger, and more of these > events will happen. Third, your psychology is wrong. Neville Chamberlain sent all sort of love vibes toward Hitler and it didn't work. Not everyone is susceptible to love. Enlightenment isn't just a matter of dwelling on kind thoughts, it also faces unpleasant truths, a strategy I wholeheartedly recommend to you. > So, if not for these people who did this, do it for all > humans i8n the future, for the good of everyone. Hatred and violence does no > good, only love. > Fourth, you fail to distinguish between vengeance and defense, between emotion and action. There's a Zen story < sorry, don't recall the master's name < where some master is asked what he would do if someone threatened to kill his family. He replied that he'd kill him compassionately. You don't have to hate your enemy < and you and Wieland have wisely noted that we are the first victims of our own hatred. The issue is what to do to prevent further carnage. Best but practical wishes, Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho ...........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.org By sending a message to this list, you are giving permission to have it reproduced as a letter on http://www.realization.org ................................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Gary Schouborg wrote: > > > Third, your psychology is wrong. Neville Chamberlain sent all sort of > love > vibes toward Hitler and it didn't work. **** Exactly. And Hitler and these terrorists use that to their advantage. They chuckle over it. That's why playing " nicey nice " by " rules " does not work. Not everyone is susceptible to > love. > Enlightenment isn't just a matter of dwelling on kind thoughts, it > also > faces unpleasant truths, a strategy I wholeheartedly recommend to you. > ******* Yes, it's called being here now, NOT cowering away in fear of any sort, hiding behind your *make-believe* *god's* skirts. It's dealing with life as it is, not as you *wish* it was. This is it kids, like it or not! -- Happy Days, Judi http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm TheEndOfTheRopeRanch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Wieland wrote: > > These statements disturb me, coming via a " realization group. " > Why has no one commented. > > How do we confront evil without resorting to evil? > Do we become what we hate? > Is love possible in the face of evil? > Or is it a sign of weakness? > Was Jesus right to tell us to love our enemies? > Or are they our teachers, however difficult this lesson may be. > ***** What do you think standing up to these jack-asses is, if not very love itself? I suggest you've never raised children? If you want peace in the world, you have to learn how to say no and back it up. There is simply a right and wrong way to live. Duh??? Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Carol Philo wrote: > > My feeling is that the aim of the terrorists is to immobilize the > people of > America. > The only way to thwart them is to carry on, hug your friends and > family and > increase, not decrease, the communication with each other. > Dang it, they WILL NOT stop us. Onward. Hug your friends and family. > Tell > someone you love them. > That is something that everyone can do. > ****** And while everyone's got their heads in the clouds, they're stoking up the gas chambers. Wake up folks! Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 I think that taking what sounded like glee in the bombing of Kabul (which was not done by the U.S.) and using the term " bombing the shit out of them " just did not seem the kind of enlightened statement that I would find here. Who is the " them " in Kabul? Us and Them - sounds very dualistic. And how do you know for sure at this time that the terrorism came from Kabul. I remember that everyone at first thought that the Oklahoma bombing was also the work of Islamic terrorists. Can there be pinpoint accuracy in the bombing, or would we not to worry about collateral damage as Tim McVey would say. He too felt that he was acting to right an injustice as probably did the terrorists. Will it be an eye for an eye until we are all blind? Is it righteous to kill what you think is evil even if innocents must also suffer? On the other hand, I would definitely agree that to have killed the terrorist on the plane in order to save lives was a necessary action. I guess that I have trouble with enthusiastic talk of indiscriminant bombing of a city. I wouldn't also hold Reagan as a hero either - there are probably plenty of priests, nuns,and innocent peasants in South and Central America who were adversely affected by some of his decisions. I'd rather look towards the Compassion shown by the Dalai Lama or Gandhi. With all of this talk of revenge, I keep thinking of the scene in the movie of Gandhi which was based on an actual event. In this scene, in the midst of a time of widespread conflict and violence between Hindus and Muslims, a Hindu man comes to Gandhi. The Hindu man comes in great distress, because his son has been killed by a Muslim, and he in turn, acting in revenge and hatred, has killed a Muslim child. He feels that he is or will be condemned to hell for his action. Gandhi tells him: " I know a way out of hell. You must find another child about the age of your son who was killed, and you must raise him as your own. Only be sure that the child is a Muslim child, and that you raise him as a Muslim. " Namaste, Ken P.S. I have raised two lovely children - but I feel that that is irrelevant to my views here. - " Judi " <judirhodes <Realization > Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:37 AM Re: Afghanistan > Wieland wrote: > > > > These statements disturb me, coming via a " realization group. " > > Why has no one commented. > > > > How do we confront evil without resorting to evil? > > Do we become what we hate? > > Is love possible in the face of evil? > > Or is it a sign of weakness? > > Was Jesus right to tell us to love our enemies? > > Or are they our teachers, however difficult this lesson may be. > > > ***** > What do you think standing up to these jack-asses is, if not very love > itself? > I suggest you've never raised children? If you want peace in the world, > you have to learn how to say no and back it up. There is simply a right > and wrong way to live. Duh??? > > Judi > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Perhaps you are correct. I was under the impression that getting your head away from this reality and into the clouds was one of the purposes of realization. In my opinion, whether you die of old age or in the gas chamber, you will still die. What matters is how much you learn on this plane before you " die " , i.e. transfer to another plane of reality. By the way, who is They? Us? Gelf - " Judi " <judirhodes <Realization > Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:43 AM Re: Afghanistan > Carol Philo wrote: > > > > My feeling is that the aim of the terrorists is to immobilize the > > people of > > America. > > The only way to thwart them is to carry on, hug your friends and > > family and > > increase, not decrease, the communication with each other. > > Dang it, they WILL NOT stop us. Onward. Hug your friends and family. > > Tell > > someone you love them. > > That is something that everyone can do. > > > ****** > And while everyone's got their heads in the clouds, they're stoking up > the > gas chambers. > > Wake up folks! > > Judi > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 I look at like this. If a terrorist came into my house and killed someone and then ran down the street to hide in a neighbors house that had a bunch of kids, what would you do? I would say turn that sob over to me or I'm gonna torch your house kids and all. The people who harbor are equally as guilty. The bottom line being, madmen cannot be tolerated. Judi Wieland wrote: > > I think that taking what sounded like glee in the bombing of Kabul > (which > was not done by the U.S.) and using the term " bombing the shit out of > them " > just did not seem the kind of enlightened statement that I would find > here. > Who is the " them " in Kabul? Us and Them - sounds very dualistic. And > how do > you know for sure at this time that the terrorism came from Kabul. I > remember that everyone at first thought that the Oklahoma bombing was > also > the work of Islamic terrorists. > > Can there be pinpoint accuracy in the bombing, or would we not to > worry > about collateral damage as Tim McVey would say. He too felt that he > was > acting to right an injustice as probably did the terrorists. Will it > be an > eye for an eye until we are all blind? Is it righteous to kill what > you > think is evil even if innocents must also suffer? > > On the other hand, I would definitely agree that to have killed the > terrorist on the plane in order to save lives was a necessary action. > I > guess that I have trouble with enthusiastic talk of indiscriminant > bombing > of a city. > > I wouldn't also hold Reagan as a hero either - there are probably > plenty of > priests, nuns,and innocent peasants in South and Central America who > were > adversely affected by some of his decisions. > > I'd rather look towards the Compassion shown by the Dalai Lama or > Gandhi. > With all of this talk of revenge, I keep thinking of the scene in the > movie > of Gandhi which was based on an actual event. In this scene, in the > midst of > a time of widespread conflict and violence between Hindus and Muslims, > a > Hindu man comes to Gandhi. The Hindu man comes in great distress, > because > his son has been killed by a Muslim, and he in turn, acting in revenge > and > hatred, has killed a Muslim child. He feels that he is or will be > condemned > to hell for his action. Gandhi tells him: " I know a way out of hell. > You > must find another child about the age of your son who was killed, and > you > must raise him as your own. Only be sure that the child is a Muslim > child, > and that you raise him as a Muslim. " > > Namaste, > > Ken > > P.S. I have raised two lovely children - but I feel that that is > irrelevant > to my views here. > > - > " Judi " <judirhodes > <Realization > > Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:37 AM > Re: Afghanistan > > > Wieland wrote: > > > > > > These statements disturb me, coming via a " realization group. " > > > Why has no one commented. > > > > > > How do we confront evil without resorting to evil? > > > Do we become what we hate? > > > Is love possible in the face of evil? > > > Or is it a sign of weakness? > > > Was Jesus right to tell us to love our enemies? > > > Or are they our teachers, however difficult this lesson may be. > > > > > ***** > > What do you think standing up to these jack-asses is, if not very > love > > itself? > > I suggest you've never raised children? If you want peace in the > world, > > you have to learn how to say no and back it up. There is simply a > right > > and wrong way to live. Duh??? > > > > Judi > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > Email addresses: > > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > http://www.realization.org > > ................................................ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Carol Philo wrote: > ** Hi Carol, > Perhaps you are correct. > I was under the impression that getting your head away from this > reality and > into the clouds was one of the purposes of realization. *** Sure, and Santa Claus is coming too. :-) The story of the donkey chasing the carrot is as old as the hills. Nothing new there. That's the business all religions and spirituality. Realization is the " under " standing of all that, such that there is no seeking. The *seeking* itself is undermined and seen for what it is. Misplaced identity. You could say that realization is the acceptance of being here now. Which you are at any rate. duh? :-) The *way* is *no way*. :-) > In my opinion, whether you die of old age or in the gas chamber, you > will > still die. What matters is how much you learn on this plane before you > " die " , i.e. transfer to another plane of reality. > By the way, who is They? Us? **** All of your questions and ideas of " appeasement " is just more of the same unhappy seeking you see? The question is not who you are, but rather, what are you doing? -- Happy Days, Judi http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm TheEndOfTheRopeRanch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 > I look at like this. If a terrorist came into my house and killed > someone > and then ran down the street to hide in a neighbors house that had a > bunch > of kids, what would you do? I would say turn that sob over to me or I'm > gonna torch your house kids and all. The people who harbor are equally > as guilty. The bottom line being, madmen cannot be tolerated. > > Judi Unfortunately, the kids in that house probably didn't have a choice about the harboring. Maybe the adults didn't either. That's where collateral damage gets iffy. Gary Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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