Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops ...Nisargadatta

[Guest guest]

Punishment is but legalized crime. In a society built on prevention, rather

than retaliation, there would be very little crime. The few exceptions will

be treated medically, as an unsound mind and body. (512)

Pain and pleasure, good and bad, right and wrong: these are relative terms

and must not be taken absolutely. They are limited and temporary. (264)

There is no evil, there is no suffering; the joy of living is paramount.

Look, how everything clings to life, how dear the existence is. (384)

There is no good and no evil. In every concrete situation, there is only

the necessary and the unnecessary. The needful is right, the needless is

wrong. In my world, even what you call evil is the servant of the good and

therefore necessary. It is like boils and fever that clear the body of

impurities. Disease is painful, even dangerous, but if dealt with rightly,

it heals. In some cases death is the best cure. (283-4)

 

______________________

With Love,

Cyber Dervish

````````````````````````````````````````

[Guest guest]

Hello, i so appreciate reading and re-reading Nisargadatta.My husband and i

have been reading and studying I AM THAT, for over twenty years. It is the

only book that when read pushes me right into the background. For a few

moments " me " doesn't exist, all there is is awareness. Unhappily, after all

these years this experience cannot maintain itself. One goes right back

into the foreground and begins again. Yet, Baba as he is affectionately

called by those who knew him personally, is for me the ultimate teacher.

 

In this quote, what do you think is meant when he says, " In my world, even

what you call evil is the servant of the good and therefore necessary. "

Evil necessary, evil the servant of the good? If anyone has any insight into

this i welcome your explanation. Thank you all for a very inspiring and

intelligent site. Evelyn

-

" Jan Sultan " <swork

<sworkalpha

Monday, August 20, 2001 11:11 AM

Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops

....Nisargadatta

 

 

> Punishment is but legalized crime. In a society built on prevention,

rather

> than retaliation, there would be very little crime. The few exceptions

will

> be treated medically, as an unsound mind and body. (512)

> Pain and pleasure, good and bad, right and wrong: these are relative terms

> and must not be taken absolutely. They are limited and temporary. (264)

> There is no evil, there is no suffering; the joy of living is paramount.

> Look, how everything clings to life, how dear the existence is. (384)

> There is no good and no evil. In every concrete situation, there is only

> the necessary and the unnecessary. The needful is right, the needless is

> wrong. In my world, even what you call evil is the servant of the good and

> therefore necessary. It is like boils and fever that clear the body of

> impurities. Disease is painful, even dangerous, but if dealt with rightly,

> it heals. In some cases death is the best cure. (283-4)

>

> ______________________

> With Love,

> Cyber Dervish

> ````````````````````````````````````````

>

>

> ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

>

> Email addresses:

> Post message: Realization

> Un: Realization-

> Our web address: http://www.realization.org

>

> By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> http://www.realization.org

> ................................................

>

>

[Guest guest]

Evelyn:

 

> Hello, i so appreciate reading and re-reading Nisargadatta.My husband and i

> have been reading and studying I AM THAT, for over twenty years. It is the

> only book that when read pushes me right into the background. For a few

> moments " me " doesn't exist, all there is is awareness. Unhappily, after all

> these years this experience cannot maintain itself. One goes right back

> into the foreground and begins again. Yet, Baba as he is affectionately

> called by those who knew him personally, is for me the ultimate teacher.

 

One possible reason why your Nisargadatta highs don't last is that he

provides spiritual candy, not spiritual sustenance. Like candy, his writings

can provide a temporary high but not sustain you in your everyday life.

Here's an example of what I mean in two of Jan's recent postings:

 

> CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE ABSOLUTE:

> November 9, 1980 Page 10

>

> Q: Should the type of dispassion which Maharaj is teaching us be

> taught to children?

>

> M: No. If that's done, they'll have no ambition to grow further; they

> must have certain ambitions, certain desires, for their proper growth.

>

Yet he also says:

 

> The world is but a show, glittering and empty. It is, and yet it is not. It is

> there as long as I want to see it and take part in it. When I cease caring, it

> dissolves. It has no cause and serves no purpose. It just happens when we are

> absent-minded. It appears exactly as it looks, but there is no depth in it,

> nor meaning. Only the onlooker is real, call him Self or Atma. To the Self,

> the world is but a colourful show, which he enjoys as long as it lasts and

> forgets when it is over. Whatever happens on the stage makes him shudder in

> terror or roll with laughter, yet all the time he is aware that it is but a

> show. Without desire or fear, he enjoys it, as it happens. (178-9)

 

The world is but a show that serves no purpose, yet we want children to have

ambition so they will grow PROPERLY. A teaching which so violates basic laws

of logic cannot sustain us. Just as molecules function at a " higher " level

than atoms but don't violate the laws of physics, just as organisms function

at a " higher " level than molecules but don't violate the laws of chemistry,

just as humans function at a " higher " (rational) level than organisms but

don't violate laws of biology -- so we can operate spiritually at a " higher "

level than rational without violating the laws of logic. Nisargadatta may

very well have a vision that is logically coherent, but on the surface his

writings don't seem to be. We can therefore read this and that passage and

get a temporary high. But Nisargadatta does not tell us how to apply his

vision to real life. Apparently, from Jan's description of him, he was able

to do that for himself. And apparently many readers can read him and make

the connection for themselves. But it would help for someone to bridge the

gap between the vision and the concrete, everyday life it informs.

>

> In this quote, what do you think is meant when he says, " In my world, even

> what you call evil is the servant of the good and therefore necessary. "

> Evil necessary, evil the servant of the good? If anyone has any insight into

> this i welcome your explanation. Thank you all for a very inspiring and

> intelligent site. Evelyn

 

Here is the preliminary conclusion of an article I'm writing on

enlightenment. The terms " partial mind " and " whole mind " were explained

extensively in the body of the article, but I think you can catch the

general drift.

 

" Awakening is only sometimes the sudden illumination of the spiritual

genius. Much more often it is prompted by failure [evil]. The successful

partial mind that often achieves the goals to which it clings has little

incentive to reflect on its conscious state. But if for some reason it

becomes intrigued with what enlightenment might be, it is likely at first to

think of enlightened consciousness as more of the same ‹ better, more

efficient, more exciting, more self-affirming extrapolations of past,

partial mind successes. However, if it begins to glimpse that whole mind is

not merely a bigger, upgraded version of partial mind but something

unfamiliar, it becomes anxious. Aware of what it has but uncertain about the

alternative, it sees whole mind only as demanding that it give up what it

has ‹ not take its usual thoughts and feelings so seriously (emptiness), not

clinging to them (non-clinging), and surrendering to some

as-yet-vaguely-conceived better principle (surrendering). This is why it is

easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the rich ‹

that is, those whose partial mind is very successful at satisfying their

desires ‹ to achieve enlightenment (Mt 19:24; Mk 10:25; Lk 18:25; also Mt

7:13-14 concerning the wide road and the narrow gate). Unless they are

unusually spiritual gifted, they have little incentive to change. If partial

mind ain¹t broke, why fix it? On the other hand, many who have had

enlightenment experiences have been dragged kicking and screaming to them by

their partial mind¹s failure. After a lifetime of fruitlessly whipping

partial mind to give what it does not have to give, they have given up only

after hitting their own personal wall. Too emotionally drained to continue

struggling for a future happiness, they give up and begin to awaken to their

somatic present. "

 

Best to all,

 

Gary

 

Gary Schouborg

Performance Consulting

Walnut Creek, CA

garyscho

 

Publications and professional services:

http://home.att.net/~garyscho

[Guest guest]

Dear Evelyn,

 

I wish the experience could be permanent

but, really, you are so lucky to experience

it at all! What a testament to Maharaj that

his frozen words, printed on a page, could

push you into the background like this.

 

There seem to be very, very few people for

whom the experience becomes permanent.

 

I disagree with Gary about Maharaj's

illogic. Of course Maharaj is illogical --

he says so himself (I quoted him to this effect

a few days ago). But this is not the cause of

the temporariness of your state.

 

> In my world, even what you call evil is

> the servant of the good and therefore

> necessary. "

 

I think he means that he is sitting still and watching

all the events of the world pass before him like

colors going round and round in a kaleidoscope.

Whatever is seen in the kaleidoscope is the

result (caused by) whatever was seen a moment

earlier; the whole situation at one time causes

the whole situation at the next. In the same way,

all the events of the world (good and bad)

cause all the succeeding events of the world (good

and bad). This whole process is God, therefore

Good; therefore bad is the servant of the good.

Nothing but this can happen; there is no alternative

to it; therefore it is necessary.

 

Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad you

like the site.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob

 

 

-

" Drs. Moschetta " <evpaul

<Realization >

Wednesday, August 22, 2001 12:57 PM

Re: Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops

....Nisargadatta

 

 

> Hello, i so appreciate reading and re-reading Nisargadatta.My husband and i

> have been reading and studying I AM THAT, for over twenty years. It is the

> only book that when read pushes me right into the background. For a few

> moments " me " doesn't exist, all there is is awareness. Unhappily, after all

> these years this experience cannot maintain itself. One goes right back

> into the foreground and begins again. Yet, Baba as he is affectionately

> called by those who knew him personally, is for me the ultimate teacher.

>

> In this quote, what do you think is meant when he says, " In my world, even

> what you call evil is the servant of the good and therefore necessary. "

> Evil necessary, evil the servant of the good? If anyone has any insight into

> this i welcome your explanation. Thank you all for a very inspiring and

> intelligent site. Evelyn

> -

> " Jan Sultan " <swork

> <sworkalpha

> Monday, August 20, 2001 11:11 AM

> Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops

> ...Nisargadatta

>

>

> > Punishment is but legalized crime. In a society built on prevention,

> rather

> > than retaliation, there would be very little crime. The few exceptions

> will

> > be treated medically, as an unsound mind and body. (512)

> > Pain and pleasure, good and bad, right and wrong: these are relative terms

> > and must not be taken absolutely. They are limited and temporary. (264)

> > There is no evil, there is no suffering; the joy of living is paramount.

> > Look, how everything clings to life, how dear the existence is. (384)

> > There is no good and no evil. In every concrete situation, there is only

> > the necessary and the unnecessary. The needful is right, the needless is

> > wrong. In my world, even what you call evil is the servant of the good and

> > therefore necessary. It is like boils and fever that clear the body of

> > impurities. Disease is painful, even dangerous, but if dealt with rightly,

> > it heals. In some cases death is the best cure. (283-4)

> >

> > ______________________

> > With Love,

> > Cyber Dervish

> > ````````````````````````````````````````

> >

> >

> > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

> >

> > Email addresses:

> > Post message: Realization

> > Un: Realization-

> > Our web address: http://www.realization.org

> >

> > By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> > http://www.realization.org

> > ................................................

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

P.S. Evelyn, in addition to saying that

I'm glad you like the site, I should have

added that it is flattering and an honor

to have you as a reader.

 

-

" Rob Sacks " <editor

<Realization >

Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:51 PM

Re: Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops

....Nisargadatta

 

 

> Dear Evelyn,

>

> I wish the experience could be permanent

> but, really, you are so lucky to experience

> it at all! What a testament to Maharaj that

> his frozen words, printed on a page, could

> push you into the background like this.

>

> There seem to be very, very few people for

> whom the experience becomes permanent.

>

> I disagree with Gary about Maharaj's

> illogic. Of course Maharaj is illogical --

> he says so himself (I quoted him to this effect

> a few days ago). But this is not the cause of

> the temporariness of your state.

>

> > In my world, even what you call evil is

> > the servant of the good and therefore

> > necessary. "

>

> I think he means that he is sitting still and watching

> all the events of the world pass before him like

> colors going round and round in a kaleidoscope.

> Whatever is seen in the kaleidoscope is the

> result (caused by) whatever was seen a moment

> earlier; the whole situation at one time causes

> the whole situation at the next. In the same way,

> all the events of the world (good and bad)

> cause all the succeeding events of the world (good

> and bad). This whole process is God, therefore

> Good; therefore bad is the servant of the good.

> Nothing but this can happen; there is no alternative

> to it; therefore it is necessary.

>

> Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad you

> like the site.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Rob

>

>

> -

> " Drs. Moschetta " <evpaul

> <Realization >

> Wednesday, August 22, 2001 12:57 PM

> Re: Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops

....Nisargadatta

>

>

> > Hello, i so appreciate reading and re-reading Nisargadatta.My husband and i

> > have been reading and studying I AM THAT, for over twenty years. It is the

> > only book that when read pushes me right into the background. For a few

> > moments " me " doesn't exist, all there is is awareness. Unhappily, after all

> > these years this experience cannot maintain itself. One goes right back

> > into the foreground and begins again. Yet, Baba as he is affectionately

> > called by those who knew him personally, is for me the ultimate teacher.

> >

> > In this quote, what do you think is meant when he says, " In my world, even

> > what you call evil is the servant of the good and therefore necessary. "

> > Evil necessary, evil the servant of the good? If anyone has any insight into

> > this i welcome your explanation. Thank you all for a very inspiring and

> > intelligent site. Evelyn

> > -

> > " Jan Sultan " <swork

> > <sworkalpha

> > Monday, August 20, 2001 11:11 AM

> > Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops

> > ...Nisargadatta

> >

> >

> > > Punishment is but legalized crime. In a society built on prevention,

> > rather

> > > than retaliation, there would be very little crime. The few exceptions

> > will

> > > be treated medically, as an unsound mind and body. (512)

> > > Pain and pleasure, good and bad, right and wrong: these are relative terms

> > > and must not be taken absolutely. They are limited and temporary. (264)

> > > There is no evil, there is no suffering; the joy of living is paramount.

> > > Look, how everything clings to life, how dear the existence is. (384)

> > > There is no good and no evil. In every concrete situation, there is only

> > > the necessary and the unnecessary. The needful is right, the needless is

> > > wrong. In my world, even what you call evil is the servant of the good and

> > > therefore necessary. It is like boils and fever that clear the body of

> > > impurities. Disease is painful, even dangerous, but if dealt with rightly,

> > > it heals. In some cases death is the best cure. (283-4)

> > >

> > > ______________________

> > > With Love,

> > > Cyber Dervish

> > > ````````````````````````````````````````

> > >

> > >

> > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

> > >

> > > Email addresses:

> > > Post message: Realization

> > > Un: Realization-

> > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org

> > >

> > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> > > http://www.realization.org

> > > ................................................

> > >

> > >