Guest guest Posted February 10, 2000 Report Share Posted February 10, 2000 Dear Laura, At 08:54 AM 2/10/2000 -0500, you wrote: > " Laura Olshansky " <editor > >Krishnamurti seems to say that if a person's conditioning is removed >or transcended, then the person can think freely. > >This seems naive and silly to me. If you took away a person's >conditioning -- his or her education, his upbringing, everything he >learned in life -- he couldn't think at all. He would have no ideas or >knowledge or neural pathways to think with. > >He would have the intelligence of a fetus. STOP... not so fast :-). I believe the key above is *or transcended*. Transcended does not mean " gone, " it means " no longer master, but servant. " Many people feel that " enlightenment " or " lack of ego " as commonly described would result in a dull, drab, boring existence as an antisocial hermit, but (as we both know) even a small taste shows that to be entirely incorrect. So I don't think it would do to jump to any conclusions regarding what J.K. had to say. >The solution is not to try to eliminate conditioning and think >freely at the same time. This is impossible. What J. Krishnamurti actually proposes (from what I understand) is *seeing through* all that conditioning and thus transcending it, not " emptying the mind " entirely (I doubt he would have published so many books and been recognized as one of the great thinkers of the 20th century by many people if he were that stupid). Conditioning is a product of memory, and memory depends on time. If the " Eternal Now " (timelessness) has any validity (which I already know it does through direct experience), perhaps seeing through conditioning (thus transcending it) is a powerful technique for cutting the roots of our misperceptions regarding time. J.K. always took care to point out that the mind is a tool, useful for doing things that require it, but that it's normally abused by most people, and most people are slaves to the mind, not masters of it. >The point is to stop thinking, because in so doing, we stop >responding automatically and emotionally to things. Someone could easily say to that " But if you stop thinking, how the hell are you going to buy groceries? " Again, hasty conclusions don't do the trick, in my opinion. With Love, Tim ----- Sum Ergo Sum Visit " The Core " Website at http://coresite.cjb.net - Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's other pages are at http://core.vdirect.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2000 Report Share Posted February 10, 2000 Fromthe training of trekcho - The Three Words that Strike the Vital Point (Dzogchen) ..... " self-liberation means that just as the thought arises of itself, it liberates by itself. You do not intentionally generate a thought, and you do not intentionally get rid of it, it is self arisen and self liberated. Because you are not distracted from innate Awareness, the thought is liberated as it arises. As long as you rest in your innate awareness, this self-arising and self liberating quality of thought is unbroken and continuous - like a design drawn on water. From this it also follows that you in no way attempt to prevent thoughts from arising. Whatever form the thought takes, whether it is what you might normally consider a good thought or a bad thought, a pleasant thought or an unpleasant thought, makes no difference. When one uses thoughts in this way to train in the recognition of basic awareness (ones non dual essential nature) whatever thought arises becomes an opportunity to train in the recognition of this awareness. When thoughts are self-liberated like this, not only do they not pose a problem, they actually become an opportunity for enhancement. When the arising of a thought is seen as an arising of awareness, then the coarser and the more outrageous a thought is, the more clarity and sharpness of awareness it automatically brings up. Since there has been NO SEPARATION of awareness and occurrence in the mind, no matter how intense a thought is, the recognizing and liberating awareness that occurs simultaneous with it will be equally intense. Whatever thought arises in the mind is food for naked awareness and emptiness. Since whatever thought arises in the mind is recognized (and this is the important point, it has to be RECOGNIZED as not other than awareness) as the DISPLAY OF ONES OWN AWARENESS, this thought does not obstruct the recognition of the innate awareness (experience of non-dulaity) There is nothing in the mind experienced as other than the EXPRESSION of innate awareness. All thought as an expression of innate awareness does not need to be purified, de-conditioned or intentionally freed in any way. All thoughts - whether it be about egos or enlightement or de-conditioning or what to have for dinner are about as much of a problem as clouds in the sky. And so on - more if any one is interested in Trekcho - a Dzogchen practice - ill post more Joyce > Dear Laura, > > At 08:54 AM 2/10/2000 -0500, you wrote: >> " Laura Olshansky " <editor >> >>Krishnamurti seems to say that if a person's conditioning is removed >>or transcended, then the person can think freely. >> >>This seems naive and silly to me. If you took away a person's >>conditioning -- his or her education, his upbringing, everything he >>learned in life -- he couldn't think at all. He would have no ideas or >>knowledge or neural pathways to think with. >> >>He would have the intelligence of a fetus. > > STOP... not so fast :-). I believe the key above is *or transcended*. > Transcended does not mean " gone, " it means " no longer master, but servant. " > > Many people feel that " enlightenment " or " lack of ego " as commonly > described would result in a dull, drab, boring existence as an antisocial > hermit, but (as we both know) even a small taste shows that to be entirely > incorrect. So I don't think it would do to jump to any conclusions > regarding what J.K. had to say. > >>The solution is not to try to eliminate conditioning and think >>freely at the same time. This is impossible. > > What J. Krishnamurti actually proposes (from what I understand) is *seeing > through* all that conditioning and thus transcending it, not " emptying the > mind " entirely (I doubt he would have published so many books and been > recognized as one of the great thinkers of the 20th century by many people > if he were that stupid). > > Conditioning is a product of memory, and memory depends on time. If the > " Eternal Now " (timelessness) has any validity (which I already know it does > through direct experience), perhaps seeing through conditioning (thus > transcending it) is a powerful technique for cutting the roots of our > misperceptions regarding time. J.K. always took care to point out that the > mind is a tool, useful for doing things that require it, but that it's > normally abused by most people, and most people are slaves to the mind, not > masters of it. > >>The point is to stop thinking, because in so doing, we stop >>responding automatically and emotionally to things. > > Someone could easily say to that " But if you stop thinking, how the hell > are you going to buy groceries? " Again, hasty conclusions don't do the > trick, in my opinion. > > With Love, > > Tim > > ----- > Sum Ergo Sum > > Visit " The Core " Website at http://coresite.cjb.net - > Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. > Tim's other pages are at http://core.vdirect.net > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Free Valentineís Day Delivery from Petopia.com. > Looking for that pet-perfect Valentineís Day gift? > Click here for free delivery with purchases of $25 or more. > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/NewPetopia " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.