Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 Ya know -- poking around the guts of the various spiritual traditions and teachers one discovers hundreds and hundreds of methods for treading the path towards realization. But when you get right down to it they all seem to have one purpose -- the self-discovery of the nature of thoughts and how to simply allow the arising of thoughts and their dissapation without becoming involved in the game of treating these thoughts as a reality. As Korzybsky says " The map is not the territory " . Out thoughts about the tree are not the tree. The tree exists intrinsically not caring one whit what our thoughts are concerning it. Conversely when we observe the tree without our thoughts about the tree we see the true nature of the tree. There is a felt heart connection with this tree and all other objects. A unity exists within a unified energy field. Separation drops away. Peace naturally arises. Judgeing has ceased. We're back in the Garden of Eden at time zero. Wisdom (true experiential undifferentiated knowledge) now simply happens. Love happens. Not a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 Intelligence is the art of making complex things simple (Einstein) I am not too bright, but the Is, Center, Dream (whatever you call it) knows everything and nothing. Carol - " Victor Torrico " <vtorrico <Realization > Sunday, January 30, 2000 6:14 AM Musings > Victor Torrico <vtorrico > > Ya know -- poking around the guts of the various spiritual > traditions and teachers one discovers hundreds and hundreds > of methods for treading the path towards realization. But > when you get right down to it they all seem to have one > purpose -- the self-discovery of the nature of thoughts and > how to simply allow the arising of thoughts and their > dissapation without becoming involved in the game of > treating these thoughts as a reality. As Korzybsky says " The > map is not the territory " . Out thoughts about the tree are > not the tree. The tree exists intrinsically not caring one > whit what our thoughts are concerning it. Conversely when > we observe the tree without our thoughts about the tree we > see the true nature of the tree. There is a felt heart > connection with this tree and all other objects. A unity > exists within a unified energy field. Separation drops > away. Peace naturally arises. Judgeing has ceased. We're > back in the Garden of Eden at time zero. Wisdom (true > experiential undifferentiated knowledge) now simply happens. > Love happens. Not a big deal. > > -------- ------ > > > Please click above to support our sponsor > > > -------- ------ > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 Hi Carol, Welcome to the list! > Intelligence is the art of making complex > things simple (Einstein) > I am not too bright, but the Is, Center, > Dream (whatever you call it) knows > everything and nothing. But you *are* the Is, Center, and Dream -- you're *very* bright indeed! Love, Laura - Ron Philo <cphilo <Realization > Sunday, January 30, 2000 8:39 AM Re: Musings > " Ron Philo " <cphilo > > Intelligence is the art of making complex things simple (Einstein) > I am not too bright, but the Is, Center, Dream (whatever you call it) knows > everything and nothing. > Carol > - > " Victor Torrico " <vtorrico > <Realization > > Sunday, January 30, 2000 6:14 AM > Musings > > > > Victor Torrico <vtorrico > > > > Ya know -- poking around the guts of the various spiritual > > traditions and teachers one discovers hundreds and hundreds > > of methods for treading the path towards realization. But > > when you get right down to it they all seem to have one > > purpose -- the self-discovery of the nature of thoughts and > > how to simply allow the arising of thoughts and their > > dissapation without becoming involved in the game of > > treating these thoughts as a reality. As Korzybsky says " The > > map is not the territory " . Out thoughts about the tree are > > not the tree. The tree exists intrinsically not caring one > > whit what our thoughts are concerning it. Conversely when > > we observe the tree without our thoughts about the tree we > > see the true nature of the tree. There is a felt heart > > connection with this tree and all other objects. A unity > > exists within a unified energy field. Separation drops > > away. Peace naturally arises. Judgeing has ceased. We're > > back in the Garden of Eden at time zero. Wisdom (true > > experiential undifferentiated knowledge) now simply happens. > > Love happens. Not a big deal. > > > > -------- > ------ > > > > > > Please click above to support our sponsor > > > > > > -------- > ------ > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > Email addresses: > > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > http://www.realization.org > > ................................................ > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds. Get rates as low as 2.9 percent > Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW. > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative4CL " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 Hi Victor, > Ya know -- poking around the guts of the > various spiritual traditions and teachers > one discovers hundreds and hundreds > of methods for treading the path towards > realization. But when you get right down > to it they all seem to have one purpose -- > the self-discovery of the nature of thoughts > and how to simply allow the arising of > thoughts and their dissapation without > becoming involved in the game of > treating these thoughts as a reality. I can see how this applies to, say, Theravada, but how well does it describe, say, Karma Yoga (selfless action) or Bakhti Yoga (devotion/love) or Mahasiddha Yoga (letting Kundalini do her stuff)? Love, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Quoting Laura Olshansky <editor: > " Laura Olshansky " <editor > > Hi Victor, > > Ya know -- poking around the guts of the > > various spiritual traditions and teachers > > one discovers hundreds and hundreds > > of methods for treading the path towards > > realization. But when you get right down > > to it they all seem to have one purpose -- > > the self-discovery of the nature of thoughts > > and how to simply allow the arising of > > thoughts and their dissapation without > > becoming involved in the game of > > treating these thoughts as a reality. > > I can see how this applies to, say, Theravada, > but how well does it describe, say, Karma > Yoga (selfless action) or Bakhti Yoga > (devotion/love) or Mahasiddha Yoga > (letting Kundalini do her stuff)? > > Love, > > Laura > > Hi Laura, Poor wording on my part. You are correct in that the practices are different in the various paths. Perhaps one might say an end result of any practice may be: The non-dual state in which thoughts arise and fade away without involvement in the game of treating these thoughts as a reality. The thoughts are decorative ornaments within the non-duality. The tree and I exist unseparated indescribably within the non-duality. My personal experience of this is that it comes and goes randomly from duality to non-duality with more and longer glimpses of non-duality from time to time. Another aspect is that linear dual thinking is replaced by a wholistic creativity in which everything needed is just there without any effort on one's part. All of the above goes away when I try to mentally force it to happen. Another observation is that creativity frequently occurs while waking up in that time between sleeping and waking. Love, Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Dear Victor, I know what you mean about the glimpses getting longer. For me too. Watching thoughts come and go is something that puzzles me more and more as the years go on. My own experience has been that when I'm mindful, thoughts stop. Maybe I should try to learn to remain mindful while I watch thoughts happen...I don't know. Love, Laura > Poor wording on my part. You are correct in that the > practices are different in the various paths. Perhaps one > might say an end result of any practice may be: The > non-dual state in which thoughts arise and fade away > without involvement in the game of treating these thoughts > as a reality. The thoughts are decorative ornaments within > the non-duality. The tree and I exist unseparated > indescribably within the non-duality. My personal > experience of this is that it comes and goes randomly from > duality to non-duality with more and longer glimpses of > non-duality from time to time. Another aspect is that > linear dual thinking is replaced by a wholistic creativity > in which everything needed is just there without any effort > on one's part. All of the above goes away when I try to > mentally force it to happen. Another observation is that > creativity frequently occurs while waking up in that time > between sleeping and waking. > > Love, > > Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Dear Laura, This came to mind. We had a three week retreat at our place in the Summer of 1993. It was the first Bonpo retreat here in the US. Some of the practices given were differentiating the dual from the non-dual. Subsequent practices were given to help one remain in the non-dual (ND). There were three levels of difficulty which tested your ability to remain in the non-dual. I'll call them easy, neutral, and adverse circumstances. Say you were making movemnts with your hands. It was fairly easy to remain ND if you made no movement. It was more difficult to remain ND if you slowly moved your hands. It was almost impossible to remain ND if you initiated rapid hand movements. These three cicumstances could be applied to conversation. No conversation was easy. A normal non-controversial conversation was more difficult, while if someone were shouting and swearing at you -- no way. I guess these were a kind of a self-test. I suppose you could consider the mild conversation a kind of arisal and dispersal of thought as a kind of ornament within the non-duality. Maybe my take on this was not correct. All of the above came with fancy Tibetan names but I think the above describes it pretty well. It's what I experienced, anyhow. Love, Victor Quoting Laura Olshansky <editor: > " Laura Olshansky " <editor > > Dear Victor, > > I know what you mean about the glimpses getting > longer. For me too. > > Watching thoughts come and go is something that > puzzles me more and more as the years go on. My > own experience has been that when I'm mindful, thoughts > stop. Maybe I should try to learn to remain > mindful while I watch thoughts happen...I > don't know. > > Love, > > Laura > > > Poor wording on my part. You are correct in that the > > practices are different in the various paths. Perhaps one > > might say an end result of any practice may be: The > > non-dual state in which thoughts arise and fade away > > without involvement in the game of treating these thoughts > > as a reality. The thoughts are decorative ornaments within > > the non-duality. The tree and I exist unseparated > > indescribably within the non-duality. My personal > > experience of this is that it comes and goes randomly from > > duality to non-duality with more and longer glimpses of > > non-duality from time to time. Another aspect is that > > linear dual thinking is replaced by a wholistic creativity > > in which everything needed is just there without any effort > > on one's part. All of the above goes away when I try to > > mentally force it to happen. Another observation is that > > creativity frequently occurs while waking up in that time > > between sleeping and waking. > > > > Love, > > > > Victor > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds. Get rates as low as 2.9 percent > Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW. > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative4CL " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 I love hearing about this kind of thing. I'm not sure though what it means to stay in the non-dual. Is it the same as no-mind? No conceptual thought? Did you see the new homepage? ZenBob's letter is up in big type. - Victor Torrico <vtorrico <Realization > Monday, January 31, 2000 3:36 PM Re: Musings > Victor Torrico <vtorrico > > Dear Laura, > > This came to mind. We had a three week retreat at our place > in the Summer of 1993. It was the first Bonpo retreat here > in the US. Some of the practices given were differentiating > the dual from the non-dual. Subsequent practices were given > to help one remain in the non-dual (ND). There were three levels > of difficulty which tested your ability to remain in the > non-dual. I'll call them easy, neutral, and adverse > circumstances. Say you were making movemnts with your > hands. It was fairly easy to remain ND if you made no > movement. It was more difficult to remain ND if you slowly > moved your hands. It was almost impossible to remain ND if > you initiated rapid hand movements. These three > cicumstances could be applied to conversation. No > conversation was easy. A normal non-controversial > conversation was more difficult, while if someone were > shouting and swearing at you -- no way. I guess these were > a kind of a self-test. I suppose you could consider the > mild conversation a kind of arisal and dispersal of thought > as a kind of ornament within the non-duality. Maybe my take > on this was not correct. All of the above came with fancy > Tibetan names but I think the above describes it pretty > well. It's what I experienced, anyhow. > > Love, > > Victor > > Quoting Laura Olshansky <editor: > > " Laura Olshansky " <editor > > > > Dear Victor, > > > > I know what you mean about the glimpses getting > > longer. For me too. > > > > Watching thoughts come and go is something that > > puzzles me more and more as the years go on. My > > own experience has been that when I'm mindful, thoughts > > stop. Maybe I should try to learn to remain > > mindful while I watch thoughts happen...I > > don't know. > > > > Love, > > > > Laura > > > > > Poor wording on my part. You are correct in that the > > > practices are different in the various paths. Perhaps one > > > might say an end result of any practice may be: The > > > non-dual state in which thoughts arise and fade away > > > without involvement in the game of treating these thoughts > > > as a reality. The thoughts are decorative ornaments within > > > the non-duality. The tree and I exist unseparated > > > indescribably within the non-duality. My personal > > > experience of this is that it comes and goes randomly from > > > duality to non-duality with more and longer glimpses of > > > non-duality from time to time. Another aspect is that > > > linear dual thinking is replaced by a wholistic creativity > > > in which everything needed is just there without any effort > > > on one's part. All of the above goes away when I try to > > > mentally force it to happen. Another observation is that > > > creativity frequently occurs while waking up in that time > > > between sleeping and waking. > > > > > > Love, > > > > > > Victor > > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds. Get rates as low as 2.9 percent > > Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW. > > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative4CL " >Click Here</a> > > > > ------ > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > Email addresses: > > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > http://www.realization.org > > ................................................ > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds. Get rates as low as 2.9 percent > Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW. > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative4CL " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.