Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - " How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? " . To read posting please visit: /message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse from their partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to do otherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ Hari OmBhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles.In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue.Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari OmNo scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different.Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran Bisnath Marriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards, Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari OmA lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse.A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said:Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !!There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect)Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14.SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------- Namaste To all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath --------- Hari OmIn Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them.But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us:Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive.Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar,Malakshmiji has raised a valid point.Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance).In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari OmBhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles.In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue.Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari OmNo scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different.Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran Bisnath Marriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards, Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari OmWith sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says:Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai.Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always.Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in thatDefinitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness?A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship.A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times, Balance Qs later on.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B. -Shree Hari-Dear Mahalakshmiji,I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master.The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever?Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on).All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn'Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props.There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up!In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused.The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works....Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen..Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai HanumanWe often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God !Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this.Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee !Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM.Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all. Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31. Sincerely, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram We urge you to be BRIEF ! There will be follow-ups and on going discussion on the same TOPICS. Therefore let each response address one main thought / point so that sadhaks have the time to absorb and live by these divine words. Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram -------- My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari OmQ It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc.A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said.Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego !Come back if you have any problems in implementation.Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------- Hari OmExtract from today's post in Sadhak group:God is My Very Own, There is None Other"God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many.There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all.Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends.From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM.I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it.In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world.In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways."I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all.Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram We urge you to be BRIEF ! There will be follow-ups and on going discussion on the same TOPICS. Therefore let each response address one main thought / point so that sadhaks have the time to absorb and live by these divine words. Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram -------- My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Some formatting problems will post PRIOR POSTINGS next time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram We urge you to be BRIEF ! There will be follow-ups and on going discussion on the same TOPICS. Therefore let each response address one main thought / point so that sadhaks have the time to absorb and live by these divine words. Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram -------- My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear sadaks, Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc. Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara. Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan -------- Pranam bhakti and moksha hari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helped Sophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another. 2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love? 3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family. 2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana ----- ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt------------------------ ------------- Hari Om:I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused.The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage.I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role.I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all.Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies,Dr. Ranjeet Singh. --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm) You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful, Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi -- Shree Hari Ram Ram It is unclear where this discussion is leading....... Here are some points Swamiji has expressed generally.. not pertaining to any extreme cases as in this TOPIC - There is great need of returning good for evil in these days One must focus on one's own duty, and protect the rights of others A member of a family is he who thinks about the welfare of all other members Remain devoted to your duty and attain the highest perfection. Yagna (sacrifice) is duty. Through conducting proper relations and serving the world, the spiritual life is not hampered. "You can't cook anything the second time in a pot of wood." It means that deception can trick a person only once. Thus have fair dealings with others for their welfare by giving up your selfishness and ego. Be straightforward and simple and see how peace and bliss prevails. Gita teaches us the lesson on attaining Paramatma, by doing our duty in this world. Therefore study the Gita, think over its contents and put them into practice. The fact is that salvation or God Realization is Self-evident. Paramatma (God, supreme Soul) and the soul (Atma, self) are pure, flawless, but only man has become corrupt and depraved in his dealings. If he becomes pure and pious in his dealings, he will set things right. You may want to read Swamiji's book on "How to lead a Household Life" http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english%20book%20layout/How%20vto%20lead%20a%20house%20hold%20life/main.html Narayana! Narayana! Narayana! From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Namaste. I cannot overemphasize the critical necessity for people to get out of an abusive environment. It could be that Karma is the reason, but Karma does not require us to remain frozen and fixed, unwilling to respond, while suffering in an abusive relationship. The tendency of the abused is to remain and try to resolve the situation but if this fails, then we must face realism and stop others from inflicting abuse on us. Everyday, we read of women, children, and men who are attacked and assaulted while in an abusive environment; this is sufficient cause for us to move away from such an environment. Bhagavan wants us to be alert and act with alacrity in situations where we are in peril, rather than being fatalistic and accepting it as "fate and destiny." Karma does not imply accepting our station in life and doing nothing about it. We must never allow the abuser to believe we are afraid to end a relationship, or we do not want to leave because of economic circumstances, or we will not end the relationship because we want to 'uphold the reputation' of family and relatives, thus continuing to suffer. Act now, and move on with our lives rather than abused. The message of Bhagavan in Geeta to Arjuna, and all of us, is to develop equanimity and poise, to remain balanced in cases of joy, happiness, and roller-coaster extremes, but never to surrender to abuse and accept pain, agony, and distress. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Hari OmNandaji has indeed given beautiful points re the ABUSE in marital life. So far I had reflected based on "case for discussion/opinion". I appreciate that does not fully address the ideal conduct, when things are beyond a limit.Sure ! By all means and to the best of my knowledge and belief, and always trying to be equanimous , I shall address, one by one, in detail, the real genuine questions raised by Nandaji , in her capacity as social reformer, well wisher and social worker. I always believe that any Religion ultimately must be practical. If there is mere theory without an adaptability, then that is at the most "idealism" not "religion". Religion ! Sadhana !! They must be practical and be easily adaptible in day to day life. I have experiences behind me supported by impeccable and unfailing Principles of Ideal Conduct. I will love to share them for benefit of all. Sadhaks ! Kindly supplement as much as you can to the views of Nandaji. They reflect a most common and genuine obstacle faced by the best creation of Mother Nature and Father Paramatma - a female ! A creation the "Mother form" of which has been hailed to be equal to the God by all religions and Scriptures across the globe, from time immemorial ! A creation which in all forms has been stated to be 1000 times more superior than the males in many many respects by all Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. A creation which has no parallel when it comes to tolerance- austerity, trust, faith, belief, capacity and single pointed devotion ! A creation which is so unique and essential that without its presence therein , no house can be called a HOME . No male, if he is a gruhustha, can ever become rich in long run, without being respectful to his wife - it is a law. A very creator of all of Jeevas. A very preserver of all Jeevas. A Queen in her own right of every home. A Shakti. A Grihalaxmi. An Annapoorna ! Next best creation in the universe is again feminine only- the Holy Cow .I shall start replying sentence by sentence from next posting onwards. I shall wait for more views for a day. May EQUANIMITY be with me ! Pranaams and with gratitude.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------------------- Dear sadhaks/ sadhikas , narinder has been reading all the answers in this 'very valid subject', in Today's scenerio (and the related subjects of marital violence, and infidelity,and so on) . He finds the most apt answer ....... for those, who choose to be sadhaks/ sadhikas in Sri Rajneet Singh's thoughts below : "tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his/her own part. If one party does not carry out one's part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his/ her own ? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the spouse becomes exactly what he/ she decries in the other ................ narinder' s only message on all the questions would always be: " Do yourself a favour. To free yourself from all dependency ( objects and relationships), and to get the True Answer to your question from within yourself, become a sincere Sadhaka. Desire to move beyond the limitations of the Mind by going beyond the Mind. Beyond the Words . Take to Meditation. Regular contact with a living Master does wonders . Learn the art of bowing at His feet . aapo deepo bhava ................ be your own Guru( LIGHT )................................... Meditate, Meditate, Meditate............" AUM narinder - My pranaams to all Sadhaks. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, My pranaams--at your feet in salute to what you have shared with us,for what you have endured and are enduring. People use ego as an excuse for their cruel and inhumane behaviour towards their victims. What I have seen here is almost the same response and excuses given to Counsellors/Psychologists. What excuse a man has to scream/shout/use profanities at his wife? What does her ego have to do with him doing that? Each of us are responsible for our own behaviour, what comes out of our mouths is our own responsibility. (message shortened - Gita Talk Moderators) My Father and Mother have been role models for me. My father expressed two days before passing away in my Mother's arms that everything he is, is because of my mother. Ego is the factor for men as is the case when they abuse their wives but the ego of the wives do not figure in these cases as part of the abuse is to erase the ego of the wives and beat them down emotionally so they do not even know that they have a choice to leave. My Psychologist say, watch those who are talking about Egos and examine their lives. He says that only when Hindu/Indian men are forced by Law to come and get help do they come to him--under duress and they resist the counselling too. (if needed contact Moderators for email / numbers). I salute Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji for staying in the home--not everyone has the strength to do so. A Sadhak who was abused by her Pati Dev--one she revered as Lord Narayana as Dr Ranjeet Singh said one ought to do. The abuse started from the wedding night, starting with physically forcing himself on her (details excluded), later followed by forcing alcohol and cooking non-vegetarian foods. What excuse can any human being much less a Pati Dev have for doing this --can anyone explain this? Yet he says that his wife has an Ego problem... Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji, I pray that your Ramachandra one day will wake up to the fact that he has a Devi in his life. He must have done very very good karmas in his previous life to have gotten such a Devi as his Patni. I pray that you have the divine happiness that you deserved. Krishna Ji, only in poverty cases do girls get married to get out of that kind of life. Whether the wives are financially dependent or not--this does not protect them from abuse rather--it is one of the reasons for abuse. Lazy husbands marry financially secured women for money and when they do so they abuse them so as to stamp their authority and demean their wives and so the mental and emotional abuse is used as the only means of getting these women to stay with them and support them. As Dr Ranjeet Singh mentioned, we honor our Pati Dev as Bhagwaan--that is why we also do arti and touch their feet. As was said during the Saat Pheres( marriage vows) the husbands are duty bound to take care of their wives and children--that is Sanatana Dharma plain and simple. Not the wives must go out and work just so that in case the husband decide to start abusing she can support herself!!! This is accepting abuse as a way of life. Abuse is not a way of life and to accept it is just adding onto the misery of future generations. Rather than tell my daughter to go make sure that you are qualifed and can support yourself in case your husband abuses you--is it not better to say--do that and stay single so that you won't have the grief of enduring abuse at the hands of the man who promised to love, support and protect you? This lady whose husband abused her did not want her only child to marry any Hindu man--. Just before I end this lengthy post--I want to draw attention to something happening in the US. Bill Cosby and some other very famous African American men started a campaign to go out into communities and talk to African American men. They literally are telling them that their behaviour is responsible for the breakdown within their communities etc. My prayer is that one day we have Hindu groups led by Hindu men who will speak up vehemently about abusive behaviour. And I do not mean like some of those leaders today who are abusive in their own lives and still telling others that abuse is bad--I mean genuine people whose lives at home is Satsangha and is teaching others by their living examples how to have that kind of life in their own homes. Regards, NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ------------------------ Hari OmThis refers to message of Dr Ranjeet Singh. While he has echoed how a sadhak should be, but I don't think that a female should take "abuse" ( raising the hand agst female, utter continuous disrespect/harrassment to her, cruelty, haunting her etc) in any case. She can without leaving the home, if in-laws/husband are unbearably harassing her, she can seek external help. I am myself in favour of an austerity, but not in favour of cruelty. There is no doubt that there has to be a "line of demarcation". There is a difference between "testing/difficult circumstances" and "impossible circumstances" (abuse). Cruelty, physical beating etc are "abuse"Moreover, "pativrata" dharma does not get vitiated by seeking external help. "Pativrata" dharma is a "bhava" (inner sentiment). If some one has become sick, putting him in hospital is not wrong. If she is pativrata, and hubby is very cruel and she seeks external help to save herself- she continues to be "pativrata" ! As regards sentiments: Alas wives don't consider hubbies to be God, it is an easy and ideal solution, sure but in the present times it is becoming rarer and rarer. There are many reasons for the same, not all are exclusively dependent upon wife. I don't say it is not ideal or very difficult, I say there are SOME subtle things of Law of Karma also preventing it/playing role in it . Lady following "Pativrata" dharma and her husband generally were husband and wife only in the prior life too. Their relationship is continuous journey, taking peak shape in present birth. It is an austerity of an extra ordinary nature for wife. Her prior life "sanskars" , present life education , contractual obligations of prior life, also play some roles. It is a topic of detail. I also believe that most of the newly wed wives , if not all, enter hubby's house with an intention of becoming "pativrata" . I don't believe any wife is "non pativrata" in the beginning itself. Sentiment changes later, due to variety of reasons. She has many options of God Realisation and has a freedom to choose one . Pativrata Dharma is one of them only. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt------------------------ Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh. --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari Om I thank you for this discussion. I was abused. I showed your emails to him. First he got angry and shouted when I show them to him then a few days after I saw him read them. He ask for new ones and I can see change in him.Is short time since this change but it made great difference in my life.Thanks to you everyone. I no longer want to run away and I no longer feel sick. Preeti --------------------------- Namaste There would be less problems in our life if we consider Bhagavan Lord Krishna as our guru, counselor, psychologist, and psychiatrist, and regard GEETA as the Handbook of Life, the manual we should refer to in our daily lives. Bhagavan is Everything to us: I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus. The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable. (As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna! GEETA 9:16-19 We have agreed never to waste a single moment on anger and arguments because, ultimately, it is waste of our time and energy and life as a human being is too precious to be frittered away on unpleasantness. Both of us do not want to prove to anyone that we know more than them, or that we are the most moral and high-standing religious people. We are blessed to have acquired knowledge so we use that blessing to improve ourselves and help others. To thee, who dost not carp, verily shall I now declare this, the most profound knowledge, united with realisation, having known which, thou shalt be free from evil (Samsâra).GEETA 9:1 All we do and every moment of our lives are an offering to Bhagavan so we try to conduct ourselves in a manner that is befitting to Bhagavan's Gift to us, the Bhagavad Geeta. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I acceptâ€"the devout gift of the pure-minded. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me. GEETA 9:26-27 Both of us have cast away the False Ego to the point where each of us do not want to be right at the expense of anger, abuse, and angst in our lives. We give in to each other so that there is never any heated arguments and debates but since both of us can't be wrong all the time, we seek guidance and advice from GEETA. Instead of dissonance, we have lots of love, romance, satisfaction, and serenity in our lives. We don't depend on anyone, even each other, for happiness and we accept responsibility and admit our errors and try to rectify them. The heaviest burden is lifted off our shoulders and suddenly vanishes when we confess to the the mistakes we make and learn from them. We are human, thus we err, but when we admit and confess, and try our very best not to repeat those errors, life becomes guiltless and we no longer possess the need scapegoat anyone. We deal with unpleasant behavior with exactly the opposite: we smile, we say Please, Thanks, Have a Blessed day, May Bhagavan Bless you, but we do not get into debates and confrontations with loud and rowdy people. When we counteract evil and uncivil behavior with goodness, smiles, and good manners, the others are shocked, almost speechless, when they realize you are being nice to them rather than retaliating. We try to return evil with goodness. How did we develop these habits? Read GEETA, think of Bhagavan Lord Krishna every moment. You can't be evil, nasty, attack others, and unpleasant if you have Bhagavan with you every moment of your existence, 24/7, 365 days per year. You can't abuse anyone when you have GEETA as the manual of life and Bhagavan Lord Krishna as your constant companion. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GEETA 9:34 Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Dear Saadhika Abuse by itself is inacceptable. Women strongly resist the fact that they are affected by it. We need to accept first it is happening to me. The abuser already has problem in his/ her behaviour and is execising one's power(physical, position, psychological). Any response with even an element of aggression often aggravates the situation. Reciever becomes more vulnerable... Being recognised as spouse of someone itself is a worldly identity. Veena--------------------------- " It is unclear where this discussion is leading..... .. " ( quote, Moderators ) narinder agrees ! What needs to be said has been said ....................... enough said, heard and read ! the moderators have outlined beautifully the wisdom on the subject ............. " Right and Wrong are only thoughts The Immutable Law of Cause and Effect remains sacrosanct ............. become aware of the operation of this Law in your own life , as also in the world around you ...if a person is willing to ' accept' the effect (results) of his action , he/ she may do whatever he considers right .......... BUT imponderable is the nature of Action................... 'even the wise are deluded about the True nature of Action ! '( Bh. Gt. Ch 3, Sh 16) and, .............. in the fast- moving chain of ' Cause and Effect.', how would a person really know what exactly is 'Right Action ' ? how would one be able to catch ' the wisdom of NOW ' in the chain of cause and effect ? the easiest way is to be guided by some ' kasauti' .......... by the wisdom of the scriptures, saints , and the sages....... and this is also BEST in the long run........ The ONLY TRUE Solution is the deeper understanding of Bhagwad Geetha's guidance to move into your own inner wisdom .............. ' Far lower than the Yoga -of-Wisdom is action, O Dhananjaya. Seek thou refuge in wisdom; ........................"( Ch 2, Sh 40) and to move into the Yoga of wisdom, meditation is the Way .............. the only Way......... and it is Karamyoga, which prepares the mind to move into meditation ( Chapter 4).............' all actions culminate in knowledge '( Ch 4, sh 33 ) the sadhakas are advised to seek the 'Knowledge' from the Knowers of Truth .............. by long prostration, by question, , and sewa( service)............ Ch 4, sh 34. ah, what more to add .................. too many words already !!!! AUM, narinder -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt------------------------ ------------- Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh. --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING -Shree Hari-This is a direct response to sister Mahalakshmi Dasi with respects to,'MyRamachandra":I read this post several times, and considered why the drunkard?Robert Burns, the great Scottish poet ended up a drunkard, Kahlil Gibranlikewise. Why oh why? So often do beautiful souls go on a path of selfdistruction.I think Don McLean's haunting song 'Vincent',(Van Gogh), touched on why.I listened again on U tube, the telling line was; "I could have told you Vincentthat the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you". Vincents solutionwas to shoot himself, and others booze, drugs and so on.The opiates are like a blind between them and the 'Divine Light', they haveturned in the wrong direction, that is because they are full of fear, afraid ofwhat they may find in 'The Light'.I have not mentioned any particular Shloka in Gitaji, but Chapters 14 and 16 arewrapped all around this thread.Finally with regards to this paste:".. and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith thatone day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg thatthose who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan sayprayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weightsthat bind him to passion and ignorance.Please do not put any one on the spot, "I wonder if my relationship to 'BelovedBhagwan', is strong enough to pray for Ramachandra for Mahalakshmi?".The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor ---------- Hari OmNarinderji, Gita prescribes/details minimum 25 independent ways of God Realisation. Meditation is one of them and has been stated in the Gita itself to be the most difficult one. Also your comments that Path of Inner Wisdom ( meditation ultimately) as stated in Gita to be better than Path of Action (Karma) is incorrect. Also, it is premature to state "enough said, heard and read" as lot of areas need further clarity for sadhaks and it is through such forums that on e can resolve doubts, decide and settle on a path. Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on.Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om I thank you for this discussion. I was abused. I showed your emails to him. First he got angry and shouted when I show them to him then a few days after I saw him read them. He ask for new ones and I can see change in him.Is short time since this change but it made great difference in my life.Thanks to you everyone. I no longer want to run away and I no longer feel sick. Preeti---------------------------Namaste There would be less problems in our life if we consider Bhagavan Lord Krishna as our guru, counselor, psychologist, and psychiatrist, and regard GEETA as the Handbook of Life, the manual we should refer to in our daily lives. Bhagavan is Everything to us: I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus.The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable. (As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!GEETA 9:16-19 We have agreed never to waste a single moment on anger and arguments because, ultimately, it is waste of our time and energy and life as a human being is too precious to be frittered away on unpleasantness. Both of us do not want to prove to anyone that we know more than them, or that we are the most moral and high-standing religious people. We are blessed to have acquired knowledge so we use that blessing to improve ourselves and help others. To thee, who dost not carp, verily shall I now declare this, the most profound knowledge, united with realisation, having known which, thou shalt be free from evil (Samsâra).GEETA 9:1 All we do and every moment of our lives are an offering to Bhagavan so we try to conduct ourselves in a manner that is befitting to Bhagavan's Gift to us, the Bhagavad Geeta. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I acceptâ€"the devout gift of the pure-minded. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me. GEETA 9:26-27 Both of us have cast away the False Ego to the point where each of us do not want to be right at the expense of anger, abuse, and angst in our lives. We give in to each other so that there is never any heated arguments and debates but since both of us can't be wrong all the time, we seek guidance and advice from GEETA. Instead of dissonance, we have lots of love, romance, satisfaction, and serenity in our lives. We don't depend on anyone, even each other, for happiness and we accept responsibility and admit our errors and try to rectify them. The heaviest burden is lifted off our shoulders and suddenly vanishes when we confess to the the mistakes we make and learn from them. We are human, thus we err, but when we admit and confess, and try our very best not to repeat those errors, life becomes guiltless and we no longer possess the need scapegoat anyone. We deal with unpleasant behavior with exactly the opposite: we smile, we say Please, Thanks, Have a Blessed day, May Bhagavan Bless you, but we do not get into debates and confrontations with loud and rowdy people. When we counteract evil and uncivil behavior with goodness, smiles, and good manners, the others are shocked, almost speechless, when they realize you are being nice to them rather than retaliating. We try to return evil with goodness. How did we develop these habits? Read GEETA, think of Bhagavan Lord Krishna every moment. You can't be evil, nasty, attack others, and unpleasant if you have Bhagavan with you every moment of your existence, 24/7, 365 days per year. You can't abuse anyone when you have GEETA as the manual of life and Bhagavan Lord Krishna as your constant companion. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GEETA 9:34 Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Dear SaadhikaAbuse by itself is inacceptable. Women strongly resist the fact that they are affected by it. We need to accept first it is happening to me. The abuser already has problem in his/ her behaviour and is execising one's power(physical, position, psychological). Any response with even an element of aggression often aggravates the situation. Reciever becomes more vulnerable...Being recognised as spouse of someone itself is a worldly identity. Veena--------------------------- " It is unclear where this discussion is leading..... .. " ( quote, Moderators )narinder agrees ! What needs to be said has been said ....................... enough said, heard and read ! the moderators have outlined beautifully the wisdom on the subject ............. " Right and Wrong are only thoughts The Immutable Law of Cause and Effect remains sacrosanct ............. become aware of the operation of this Law in your own life , as also in the world around you ...if a person is willing to ' accept' the effect (results) of his action , he/ she may do whatever he considers right .......... BUT imponderable is the nature of Action................... 'even the wise are deluded about the True nature of Action ! '( Bh. Gt. Ch 3, Sh 16) and, ............. in the fast- moving chain of ' Cause and Effect.', how would a person really know what exactly is 'Right Action ' ? how would one be able to catch ' the wisdom of NOW ' in the chain of cause and effect ? the easiest way is to be guided by some ' kasauti' .......... by the wisdom of the scriptures, saints , and the sages....... and this is also BEST in the long run........ The ONLY TRUE Solution is the deeper understanding of Bhagwad Geetha's guidance to move into your own inner wisdom .............. ' Far lower than the Yoga -of-Wisdom is action, O Dhananjaya. Seek thou refuge in wisdom; ........................"( Ch 2, Sh 40) and to move into the Yoga of wisdom, meditation is the Way .............. the only Way......... and it is Karamyoga, which prepares the mind to move into meditation ( Chapter 4).............' all actions culminate in knowledge '( Ch 4, sh 33 ) the sadhakas are advised to seek the 'Knowledge' from the Knowers of Truth .............. by long prostration, by question, , and sewa( service)............ Ch 4, sh 34. ah, what more to add .................. too many words already !!!! AUM, narinder -------------------------- Namaste. I cannot overemphasize the critical necessity for people to get out of an abusive environment. It could be that Karma is the reason, but Karma does not require us to remain frozen and fixed, unwilling to respond, while suffering in an abusive relationship. The tendency of the abused is to remain and try to resolve the situation but if this fails, then we must face realism and stop others from inflicting abuse on us. Everyday, we read of women, children, and men who are attacked and assaulted while in an abusive environment; this is sufficient cause for us to move away from such an environment. Bhagavan wants us to be alert and act with alacrity in situations where we are in peril, rather than being fatalistic and accepting it as "fate and destiny." Karma does not imply accepting our station in life and doing nothing about it. We must never allow the abuser to believe we are afraid to end a relationship, or we do not want to leave because of economic circumstances, or we will not end the relationship because we want to 'uphold the reputation' of family and relatives, thus continuing to suffer. Act now, and move on with our lives rather than abused. The message of Bhagavan in Geeta to Arjuna, and all of us, is to develop equanimity and poise, to remain balanced in cases of joy, happiness, and roller-coaster extremes, but never to surrender to abuse and accept pain, agony, and distress. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Hari OmNandaji has indeed given beautiful points re the ABUSE in marital life. So far I had reflected based on "case for discussion/opinion". I appreciate that does not fully address the ideal conduct, when things are beyond a limit.Sure ! By all means and to the best of my knowledge and belief, and always trying to be equanimous , I shall address, one by one, in detail, the real genuine questions raised by Nandaji , in her capacity as social reformer, well wisher and social worker. I always believe that any Religion ultimately must be practical. If there is mere theory without an adaptability, then that is at the most "idealism" not "religion". Religion ! Sadhana !! They must be practical and be easily adaptible in day to day life. I have experiences behind me supported by impeccable and unfailing Principles of Ideal Conduct. I will love to share them for benefit of all. Sadhaks ! Kindly supplement as much as you can to the views of Nandaji. They reflect a most common and genuine obstacle faced by the best creation of Mother Nature and Father Paramatma - a female ! A creation the "Mother form" of which has been hailed to be equal to the God by all religions and Scriptures across the globe, from time immemorial ! A creation which in all forms has been stated to be 1000 times more superior than the males in many many respects by all Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. A creation which has no parallel when it comes to tolerance- austerity, trust, faith, belief, capacity and single pointed devotion ! A creation which is so unique and essential that without its presence therein , no house can be called a HOME . No male, if he is a gruhustha, can ever become rich in long run, without being respectful to his wife - it is a law. A very creator of all of Jeevas. A very preserver of all Jeevas. A Queen in her own right of every home. A Shakti. A Grihalaxmi. An Annapoorna ! Next best creation in the universe is again feminine only- the Holy Cow .I shall start replying sentence by sentence from next posting onwards. I shall wait for more views for a day. May EQUANIMITY be with me ! Pranaams and with gratitude.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------------------- Dear sadhaks/ sadhikas , narinder has been reading all the answers in this 'very valid subject', in Today's scenerio (and the related subjects of marital violence, and infidelity,and so on) . He finds the most apt answer ....... for those, who choose to be sadhaks/ sadhikas in Sri Rajneet Singh's thoughts below : "tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his/her own part. If one party does not carry out one's part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his/ her own ? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the spouse becomes exactly what he/ she decries in the other ................ narinder' s only message on all the questions would always be: " Do yourself a favour. To free yourself from all dependency ( objects and relationships), and to get the True Answer to your question from within yourself, become a sincere Sadhaka. Desire to move beyond the limitations of the Mind by going beyond the Mind. Beyond the Words . Take to Meditation. Regular contact with a living Master does wonders . Learn the art of bowing at His feet . aapo deepo bhava ................ be your own Guru( LIGHT )................................... Meditate, Meditate, Meditate............" AUM narinder - My pranaams to all Sadhaks. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, My pranaams--at your feet in salute to what you have shared with us,for what you have endured and are enduring. People use ego as an excuse for their cruel and inhumane behaviour towards their victims. What I have seen here is almost the same response and excuses given to Counsellors/Psychologists. What excuse a man has to scream/shout/use profanities at his wife? What does her ego have to do with him doing that? Each of us are responsible for our own behaviour, what comes out of our mouths is our own responsibility. (message shortened - Gita Talk Moderators) My Father and Mother have been role models for me. My father expressed two days before passing away in my Mother's arms that everything he is, is because of my mother. Ego is the factor for men as is the case when they abuse their wives but the ego of the wives do not figure in these cases as part of the abuse is to erase the ego of the wives and beat them down emotionally so they do not even know that they have a choice to leave. My Psychologist say, watch those who are talking about Egos and examine their lives. He says that only when Hindu/Indian men are forced by Law to come and get help do they come to him--under duress and they resist the counselling too. (if needed contact Moderators for email / numbers). I salute Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji for staying in the home--not everyone has the strength to do so. A Sadhak who was abused by her Pati Dev--one she revered as Lord Narayana as Dr Ranjeet Singh said one ought to do. The abuse started from the wedding night, starting with physically forcing himself on her (details excluded), later followed by forcing alcohol and cooking non-vegetarian foods. What excuse can any human being much less a Pati Dev have for doing this --can anyone explain this? Yet he says that his wife has an Ego problem... Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji, I pray that your Ramachandra one day will wake up to the fact that he has a Devi in his life. He must have done very very good karmas in his previous life to have gotten such a Devi as his Patni. I pray that you have the divine happiness that you deserved. Krishna Ji, only in poverty cases do girls get married to get out of that kind of life. Whether the wives are financially dependent or not--this does not protect them from abuse rather--it is one of the reasons for abuse. Lazy husbands marry financially secured women for money and when they do so they abuse them so as to stamp their authority and demean their wives and so the mental and emotional abuse is used as the only means of getting these women to stay with them and support them. As Dr Ranjeet Singh mentioned, we honor our Pati Dev as Bhagwaan--that is why we also do arti and touch their feet. As was said during the Saat Pheres( marriage vows) the husbands are duty bound to take care of their wives and children--that is Sanatana Dharma plain and simple. Not the wives must go out and work just so that in case the husband decide to start abusing she can support herself!!! This is accepting abuse as a way of life. Abuse is not a way of life and to accept it is just adding onto the misery of future generations. Rather than tell my daughter to go make sure that you are qualifed and can support yourself in case your husband abuses you--is it not better to say--do that and stay single so that you won't have the grief of enduring abuse at the hands of the man who promised to love, support and protect you? This lady whose husband abused her did not want her only child to marry any Hindu man--. Just before I end this lengthy post--I want to draw attention to something happening in the US. Bill Cosby and some other very famous African American men started a campaign to go out into communities and talk to African American men. They literally are telling them that their behaviour is responsible for the breakdown within their communities etc. My prayer is that one day we have Hindu groups led by Hindu men who will speak up vehemently about abusive behaviour. And I do not mean like some of those leaders today who are abusive in their own lives and still telling others that abuse is bad--I mean genuine people whose lives at home is Satsangha and is teaching others by their living examples how to have that kind of life in their own homes. Regards, NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ------------------------ Hari OmThis refers to message of Dr Ranjeet Singh. While he has echoed how a sadhak should be, but I don't think that a female should take "abuse" ( raising the hand agst female, utter continuous disrespect/harrassment to her, cruelty, haunting her etc) in any case. She can without leaving the home, if in-laws/husband are unbearably harassing her, she can seek external help. I am myself in favour of an austerity, but not in favour of cruelty. There is no doubt that there has to be a "line of demarcation". There is a difference between "testing/difficult circumstances" and "impossible circumstances" (abuse). Cruelty, physical beating etc are "abuse"Moreover, "pativrata" dharma does not get vitiated by seeking external help. "Pativrata" dharma is a "bhava" (inner sentiment). If some one has become sick, putting him in hospital is not wrong. If she is pativrata, and hubby is very cruel and she seeks external help to save herself- she continues to be "pativrata" ! As regards sentiments: Alas wives don't consider hubbies to be God, it is an easy and ideal solution, sure but in the present times it is becoming rarer and rarer. There are many reasons for the same, not all are exclusively dependent upon wife. I don't say it is not ideal or very difficult, I say there are SOME subtle things of Law of Karma also preventing it/playing role in it . Lady following "Pativrata" dharma and her husband generally were husband and wife only in the prior life too. Their relationship is continuous journey, taking peak shape in present birth. It is an austerity of an extra ordinary nature for wife. Her prior life "sanskars" , present life education , contractual obligations of prior life, also play some roles. It is a topic of detail. I also believe that most of the newly wed wives , if not all, enter hubby's house with an intention of becoming "pativrata" . I don't believe any wife is "non pativrata" in the beginning itself. Sentiment changes later, due to variety of reasons. She has many options of God Realisation and has a freedom to choose one . Pativrata Dharma is one of them only. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt------------------------ ------------- Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh. --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear Vyas jee, we are so fortunate to have many Gems like yourself and highly evolved souls sharing thoughts ................in this satsang.. narinder knows but little and cannot lay claim to anything Absolute. His knowledge flows from an inner Silence ....................... as narinder becomes aware of the words that have flowed from the Eternal Source, from the Knowers of Truth, from Krishna , to become scriptures, the words lead the mind back to the source ..... Silence......... and, there is Joy of Understanding and a feeling of Love , One-ness ; Joy and Love that have no cause, no reason .................... that source , that silence, can not express itself as the One side of the coin............... whenever there is expression, it occurs along with its exact opposite .... and both negate each other to merge and be the Silence they are .............. That is why Buddha says, " the only True answer is ... " Yes, No, both and neither ! " narinder knows not much ...........................and is content with what Silence makes him available.. Doing and knowing were felt as burdens for so many lifetimes ............. and now, in the Silence of 'this moment now ', narinder seems to be free of the burden ! Knowing and Doing happen .......... they are not Knowing and Doing any more ........ Yes, very True, Vyas jee ....... even though there are THREE main Paths to self realisation............. Karma, Bhakti and Gyana...... each person has to create his own Path to the Self........ with the Self , the Light of lights, guiding each person with Love and Compassion...and, that, sir, is the Beauty of Bhagvada geetha ! Bhagvada Geetha , the Song Celestial , bears witness to the thoughts that arise , when one is silent Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. what wonderfully true words Vyas jee .................the words ' dive-in ' ................... dive into the Ocean, rather than keep skimming on the Surface , from point A to point B, to point C, to point D and so on ! When we dive-in , it is from point A1, to point A2, to point A 3, to point A4 ....... and yet deeper and deeper .......... only to discover our inability to really fathom the depth of the Ocean ..... however deep we dive-in ; yet, we do become aware of the un-knowable depth of the ocean , and that the wave is not other than the Ocean ! The self in me is the self in all ! This skimming is the love of words, and is a trap; and, the only process to go beyond the words is ... Meditation, Silence, Samadhi , diving into the Ocean ................... so the Knowers of Truth have averred .............. Ah, how to sing the praises of Meditation as the way ......where as Chapters 6,7 and 9 give some effective techniques of meditation, , almost every chapter of the Bh. Gt has reference to Meditation ................. there are shalokas and shalokas extolling Meditation , or giving tips to aid Meditation ! As regards , ' too many words' ............... it is a general statement ............ we tend to become prisoners of words : words can either become bridges to the self, or lead us astray into concepts and conditionings of the Mind. It is these concepts and conditionings that eclipse the ever -present Light in the individual. Narinder's guru often advised narinder that there was a Time to assimilate the words ............. and then have a break from the words .............. time to reflect, and test the wisdom of the words in one's own conduct . Narinder found this advice very useful. It enabled narinder to move deeper into Meditation fairly quickly. thank you for helping narinder to clear any ambiguity in his expression ........ Vyas jee ........... what more to say Vyas jeeo ........ and how, pray ? thank you for your words, Vyas jee. With respectful one-ness, Jai Jai Krishna, Vyas jee and other sadhakas true.......... AUM narinder ---------- Pranaam Mike Ji, I joined a group to address Alcohol Abuse as there was no Hindu in the group and one thing I learnt is that Alcohol is addictive and once it gets into your system you will do anything to get it. Alcohol was not allowed in our home, its effect affected everyone as ppl close to our family had alcohol abuse problems. Those men that abuse their wives and children because of liquor is an effect of the liquor taking over their brain/mind. That is one of the effects of alcohol abuse. There are men who are not alcoholics, have no substance abuse, have University degrees, are very knowledgeable about Scriptures esp. Bhagwad Gita and they abuse there wives. To preach Bhagwad Gita and be abusive to your wife(a lady) is like an oxymoron. This is something that baffles me. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Dandava pranams.... I would like to ask a question of Mike......I have looked for 1/2 an hour for a posting he wrote on this topic, but I can't find it. I recall him writing to the extent of "I should pray for Ramachandra for Mahalaksmi?" So, I am asking, Mike, you are my brother, are you not? Do you have a problem praying for your sister's advancement in life? Certainly, I hope that all will pray for me as well, as I am continually sunk in the abyss of self pity and deception.....but your letter certainly stuck me as suggesting that you thought my request was inappropriate. Am I correct? Indeed, it may have been more appropriate if I had asked that those williing pray for me as well, I certainly have mounds of ignorance to contend with, so if that was your reminder, much appreciation. Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- This is a direct response to sister Mahalakshmi Dasi with respects to,'MyRamachandra": I read this post several times, and considered why the drunkard?Robert Burns, the great Scottish poet ended up a drunkard, Kahlil Gibranlikewise. Why oh why? So often do beautiful souls go on a path of selfdistruction.I think Don McLean's haunting song 'Vincent',(Van Gogh), touched on why.I listened again on U tube, the telling line was; "I could have told you Vincentthat the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you". Vincents solutionwas to shoot himself, and others booze, drugs and so on.The opiates are like a blind between them and the 'Divine Light', they haveturned in the wrong direction, that is because they are full of fear, afraid ofwhat they may find in 'The Light'.I have not mentioned any particular Shloka in Gitaji, but Chapters 14 and 16 arewrapped all around this thread. Finally with regards to this paste:".. and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith thatone day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg thatthose who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan sayprayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weightsthat bind him to passion and ignorance. Please do not put any one on the spot, "I wonder if my relationship to 'BelovedBhagwan', is strong enough to pray for Ramachandra for Mahalakshmi?". The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ---------- Hari Om Narinderji, Gita prescribes/details minimum 25 independent ways of God Realisation. Meditation is one of them and has been stated in the Gita itself to be the most difficult one. Also your comments that Path of Inner Wisdom ( meditation ultimately) as stated in Gita to be better than Path of Action (Karma) is incorrect. Also, it is premature to state "enough said, heard and read" as lot of areas need further clarity for sadhaks and it is through such forums that on e can resolve doubts, decide and settle on a path. Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om I thank you for this discussion. I was abused. I showed your emails to him. First he got angry and shouted when I show them to him then a few days after I saw him read them. He ask for new ones and I can see change in him.Is short time since this change but it made great difference in my life.Thanks to you everyone. I no longer want to run away and I no longer feel sick. Preeti---------------------------Namaste There would be less problems in our life if we consider Bhagavan Lord Krishna as our guru, counselor, psychologist, and psychiatrist, and regard GEETA as the Handbook of Life, the manual we should refer to in our daily lives. Bhagavan is Everything to us: I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus.The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable. (As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!GEETA 9:16-19 We have agreed never to waste a single moment on anger and arguments because, ultimately, it is waste of our time and energy and life as a human being is too precious to be frittered away on unpleasantness. Both of us do not want to prove to anyone that we know more than them, or that we are the most moral and high-standing religious people. We are blessed to have acquired knowledge so we use that blessing to improve ourselves and help others. To thee, who dost not carp, verily shall I now declare this, the most profound knowledge, united with realisation, having known which, thou shalt be free from evil (Samsâra).GEETA 9:1 All we do and every moment of our lives are an offering to Bhagavan so we try to conduct ourselves in a manner that is befitting to Bhagavan's Gift to us, the Bhagavad Geeta. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I acceptâ€"the devout gift of the pure-minded. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me. GEETA 9:26-27 Both of us have cast away the False Ego to the point where each of us do not want to be right at the expense of anger, abuse, and angst in our lives. We give in to each other so that there is never any heated arguments and debates but since both of us can't be wrong all the time, we seek guidance and advice from GEETA. Instead of dissonance, we have lots of love, romance, satisfaction, and serenity in our lives. We don't depend on anyone, even each other, for happiness and we accept responsibility and admit our errors and try to rectify them. The heaviest burden is lifted off our shoulders and suddenly vanishes when we confess to the the mistakes we make and learn from them. We are human, thus we err, but when we admit and confess, and try our very best not to repeat those errors, life becomes guiltless and we no longer possess the need scapegoat anyone. We deal with unpleasant behavior with exactly the opposite: we smile, we say Please, Thanks, Have a Blessed day, May Bhagavan Bless you, but we do not get into debates and confrontations with loud and rowdy people. When we counteract evil and uncivil behavior with goodness, smiles, and good manners, the others are shocked, almost speechless, when they realize you are being nice to them rather than retaliating. We try to return evil with goodness. How did we develop these habits? Read GEETA, think of Bhagavan Lord Krishna every moment. You can't be evil, nasty, attack others, and unpleasant if you have Bhagavan with you every moment of your existence, 24/7, 365 days per year. You can't abuse anyone when you have GEETA as the manual of life and Bhagavan Lord Krishna as your constant companion. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GEETA 9:34 Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Dear SaadhikaAbuse by itself is inacceptable. Women strongly resist the fact that they are affected by it. We need to accept first it is happening to me. The abuser already has problem in his/ her behaviour and is execising one's power(physical, position, psychological). Any response with even an element of aggression often aggravates the situation. Reciever becomes more vulnerable...Being recognised as spouse of someone itself is a worldly identity. Veena--------------------------- " It is unclear where this discussion is leading..... .. " ( quote, Moderators )narinder agrees ! What needs to be said has been said ....................... enough said, heard and read ! the moderators have outlined beautifully the wisdom on the subject ............. " Right and Wrong are only thoughts The Immutable Law of Cause and Effect remains sacrosanct ............. become aware of the operation of this Law in your own life , as also in the world around you ...if a person is willing to ' accept' the effect (results) of his action , he/ she may do whatever he considers right .......... BUT imponderable is the nature of Action................... 'even the wise are deluded about the True nature of Action ! '( Bh. Gt. Ch 3, Sh 16) and, ............. in the fast- moving chain of ' Cause and Effect.', how would a person really know what exactly is 'Right Action ' ? how would one be able to catch ' the wisdom of NOW ' in the chain of cause and effect ? the easiest way is to be guided by some ' kasauti' .......... by the wisdom of the scriptures, saints , and the sages....... and this is also BEST in the long run........ The ONLY TRUE Solution is the deeper understanding of Bhagwad Geetha's guidance to move into your own inner wisdom .............. ' Far lower than the Yoga -of-Wisdom is action, O Dhananjaya. Seek thou refuge in wisdom; ........................"( Ch 2, Sh 40) and to move into the Yoga of wisdom, meditation is the Way .............. the only Way......... and it is Karamyoga, which prepares the mind to move into meditation ( Chapter 4).............' all actions culminate in knowledge '( Ch 4, sh 33 ) the sadhakas are advised to seek the 'Knowledge' from the Knowers of Truth .............. by long prostration, by question, , and sewa( service)............ Ch 4, sh 34. ah, what more to add .................. too many words already !!!! AUM, narinder -------------------------- Namaste. I cannot overemphasize the critical necessity for people to get out of an abusive environment. It could be that Karma is the reason, but Karma does not require us to remain frozen and fixed, unwilling to respond, while suffering in an abusiverelationship. The tendency of the abused is to remain and try to resolve the situation but if this fails, then we must face realism and stop others from inflicting abuse on us. Everyday, we read of women, children, and men who are attacked and assaulted while in anabusive environment; this is sufficient cause for us to move away from such an environment. Bhagavan wants us to be alert and act with alacrity in situations where we are in peril, rather than being fatalistic and accepting it as "fate and destiny." Karma does not implyaccepting our station in life and doing nothing about it. We must never allow the abuser to believe we are afraid to end a relationship, or we do not want to leave because of economic circumstances, or we will not end the relationship because we want to 'uphold the reputation' of family and relatives, thus continuing to suffer. Act now, and move on with our lives rather than abused. The message of Bhagavan in Geeta to Arjuna, and all of us, is to develop equanimity and poise, to remain balanced in cases of joy, happiness, and roller-coaster extremes, but never to surrender to abuse and accept pain, agony, and distress. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------------------Hari Om Nandaji has indeed given beautiful points re the ABUSE in marital life. So far I had reflected based on "case for discussion/opinion". I appreciate that does not fully address the ideal conduct, when things are beyond a limit. Sure ! By all means and to the best of my knowledge and belief, and always trying to be equanimous , I shall address, one by one, in detail, the real genuine questions raised by Nandaji , in her capacity as social reformer, well wisher and social worker. I always believe that any Religion ultimately must be practical. If there is mere theory without an adaptability, then that is at the most "idealism" not "religion". Religion ! Sadhana !! They must be practical and be easily adaptible in day to day life. I have experiences behind me supported by impeccable and unfailing Principles of Ideal Conduct. I will love to share them for benefit of all. Sadhaks ! Kindly supplement as much as you can to the views of Nandaji. They reflect a most common and genuine obstacle faced by the best creation of Mother Nature and Father Paramatma - a female ! A creation the "Mother form" of which has been hailed to be equal to the God by all religions and Scriptures across the globe, from time immemorial ! A creation which in all forms has been stated to be 1000 times more superior than the males in many many respects by all Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. A creation which has no parallel when it comes to tolerance- austerity, trust, faith, belief, capacity and single pointed devotion ! A creation which is so unique and essential that without its presence therein , no house can be called a HOME . No male, if he is a gruhustha, can ever become rich in long run, without being respectful to his wife - it is a law. A very creator of all of Jeevas. A very preserver of all Jeevas. A Queen in her own right of every home. A Shakti. A Grihalaxmi. An Annapoorna ! Next best creation in the universe is again feminine only- the Holy Cow . I shall start replying sentence by sentence from next posting onwards. I shall wait for more views for a day. May EQUANIMITY be with me ! Pranaams and with gratitude. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------- Dear sadhaks/ sadhikas , narinder has been reading all the answers in this 'very valid subject', in Today's scenerio (and the related subjects of marital violence, and infidelity,and so on) . He finds the most apt answer ....... for those, who choose to be sadhaks/ sadhikas in Sri Rajneet Singh's thoughts below : "tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his/her own part. If one party does not carry out one's part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his/ her own ? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the spouse becomes exactly what he/ she decries in the other ................ narinder' s only message on all the questions would always be: " Do yourself a favour. To free yourself from all dependency ( objects and relationships), and to get the True Answer to your question from within yourself, become a sincere Sadhaka. Desire to move beyond the limitations of the Mind by going beyond the Mind. Beyond the Words . Take to Meditation. Regular contact with a living Master does wonders . Learn the art of bowing at His feet . aapo deepo bhava ................ be your own Guru( LIGHT )................................... Meditate, Meditate, Meditate............" AUM narinder - My pranaams to all Sadhaks. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, My pranaams--at your feet in salute to what you have shared with us,for what you have endured and are enduring. People use ego as an excuse for their cruel and inhumane behaviour towards their victims. What I have seen here is almost the same response and excuses given to Counsellors/Psychologists. What excuse a man has to scream/shout/use profanities at his wife? What does her ego have to do with him doing that? Each of us are responsible for our own behaviour, what comes out of our mouths is our own responsibility. (message shortened - Gita Talk Moderators) My Father and Mother have been role models for me. My father expressed two days before passing away in my Mother's arms that everything he is, is because of my mother. Ego is the factor for men as is the case when they abuse their wives but the ego of the wives do not figure in these cases as part of the abuse is to erase the ego of the wives and beat them down emotionally so they do not even know that they have a choice to leave. My Psychologist say, watch those who are talking about Egos and examine their lives. He says that only when Hindu/Indian men are forced by Law to come and get help do they come to him--under duress and they resist the counselling too. (if needed contact Moderators for email / numbers). I salute Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji for staying in the home--not everyone has the strength to do so. A Sadhak who was abused by her Pati Dev--one she revered as Lord Narayana as Dr Ranjeet Singh said one ought to do. The abuse started from the wedding night, starting with physically forcing himself on her (details excluded), later followed by forcing alcohol and cooking non-vegetarian foods. What excuse can any human being much less a Pati Dev have for doing this --can anyone explain this? Yet he says that his wife has an Ego problem...Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji, I pray that your Ramachandra one day will wake up to the fact that he has a Devi in his life. He must have done very very good karmas in his previous life to have gotten such a Devi as his Patni. I pray that you have the divine happiness that you deserved. Krishna Ji, only in poverty cases do girls get married to get out of that kind of life. Whether the wives are financially dependent or not--this does not protect them from abuse rather--it is one of the reasons for abuse. Lazy husbands marry financially secured women for money and when they do so they abuse them so as to stamp their authority and demean their wives and so the mental and emotional abuse is used as the only means of getting these women to stay with them and support them. As Dr Ranjeet Singh mentioned, we honor our Pati Dev as Bhagwaan--that is why we also do arti and touch their feet. As was said during the Saat Pheres( marriage vows) the husbands are duty bound to take care of their wives and children--that is Sanatana Dharma plain and simple. Not the wives must go out and work just so that in case the husband decide to start abusing she can support herself!!! This is accepting abuse as a way of life. Abuse is not a way of life and to accept it is just adding onto the misery of future generations. Rather than tell my daughter to go make sure that you are qualifed and can support yourself in case your husband abuses you--is it not better to say--do that and stay single so that you won't have the grief of enduring abuse at the hands of the man who promised to love, support and protect you? This lady whose husband abused her did not want her only child to marry any Hindu man--. Just before I end this lengthy post--I want to draw attention to something happening in the US. Bill Cosby and some other very famous African American men started a campaign to go out into communities and talk to African American men. They literally are telling them that their behaviour is responsible for the breakdown within their communities etc. My prayer is that one day we have Hindu groups led by Hindu men who will speak up vehemently about abusive behaviour. And I do not mean like some of those leaders today who are abusive in their own lives and still telling others that abuse is bad--I mean genuine people whose lives at home is Satsangha and is teaching others by their living examples how to have that kind of life in their own homes. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)------------------------Hari Om This refers to message of Dr Ranjeet Singh. While he has echoed how a sadhak should be, but I don't think that a female should take "abuse" ( raising the hand agst female, utter continuous disrespect/harrassment to her, cruelty, haunting her etc) in any case. She can without leaving the home, if in-laws/husband are unbearably harassing her, she can seek external help. I am myself in favour of an austerity, but not in favour of cruelty. There is no doubt that there has to be a "line of demarcation". There is a difference between "testing/difficult circumstances" and "impossible circumstances" (abuse). Cruelty, physical beating etc are "abuse" Moreover, "pativrata" dharma does not get vitiated by seeking external help. "Pativrata" dharma is a "bhava" (inner sentiment). If some one has become sick, putting him in hospital is not wrong. If she is pativrata, and hubby is very cruel and she seeks external help to save herself- she continues to be "pativrata" ! As regards sentiments: Alas wives don't consider hubbies to be God, it is an easy and ideal solution, sure but in the present times it is becoming rarer and rarer. There are many reasons for the same, not all are exclusively dependent upon wife. I don't say it is not ideal or very difficult, I say there are SOME subtle things of Law of Karma also preventing it/playing role in it . Lady following "Pativrata" dharma and her husband generally were husband and wife only in the prior life too. Their relationship is continuous journey, taking peak shape in present birth. It is an austerity of an extra ordinary nature for wife. Her prior life "sanskars" , present life education , contractual obligations of prior life, also play some roles. It is a topic of detail. I also believe that most of the newly wed wives , if not all, enter hubby's house with an intention of becoming "pativrata" . I don't believe any wife is "non pativrata" in the beginning itself. Sentiment changes later, due to variety of reasons. She has many options of God Realisation and has a freedom to choose one . Pativrata Dharma is one of them only. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt------------------------ ------------- Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh. --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING First and foremost is equanimity, not being affected by all ins and outs and being Gods only.I myself serve others doing Gods Will and also take care of His Temple. If there are those who do harm, if detached, if having equanimity how can one be affected? We do what we are supposed to do doing Gods Work peaceably despite all ins and outs, when we have loss of electricity for several weeks and then when electricity is back on how much we appreciate having this after losing it. If life is simple and uncomplicated my sister how can we be true servants to God if life is all ease? We go through testing but at times we can be examples by our own exemplary conduct that we do because we are to do not to be boastful that we are any better than anyone else.Yes I have been yelled at and use that time to maintain equanimity, to meditate and pray, when faced with hatred of others I pray remaining with equanimity although sometimes becoming effected and with tears but still we must keep up what is our aim which is our love unconditional for God who made us who is Vasudev Sarvam catherine andersen -ShreeHari-Dear Sister Mahalakshmi Ji, I noticed the moderator has placed the post of mine you queried at the top ofPRIOR POSTING, so as you can see I was musing upon why do good folk turn todrink etc.?Now I never wish to offend, (unfortunately I have! Due to my own lackabilities). Thus I can be a little inscrutable when dealing with people ingeneral.I think I spotted something in your previous post, sometimes we all 'cannot seethe wood for the trees', but you ask me, am I not your brother? Yes I am indeed!As a brother I looked at you statement regarding,"those who have strongrelationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for myRamachandra.."My ultimate response to that was:The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth.I would like to tell you a true story that happened to me:One night a couple years ago, I received a phone call from an old colleague from2000 miles away.He ask me if I could get some oil from the 'Weeping Maddona' for a dying man, asI lived in the town where the church was in which the statue resided.He understood that I did not approve of such things as idols and such, but alsoknew I would help.I rang up the priest, there and then,(I had no idea where the church was), weagreed to meet next morning, this rather sweet old priest led me to thepresbytery, to where she was held each night, one could see the circle of oilwhere she had stood, (she was in the church where pilgrims could view her), hethus scooped up some oil on a couple of cotton buds and put them in a polythenebag, (very fragrant).I was driving to my house, when out of curiosity I sniffed the oil, thestrangest thing happened, from my heart I felt the softest warmest sweetestfeeling radiating. A vibration of pure love. What a surprise to this hard nosedsceptic.By the way I now have a small statue of Quan Yin in the lounge representing theuniversal Goddess of Mercy and compassion.Do you understand that something I spotted sister?With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor). ---- Narain ! Narain!! Here I am, Divine Sadhaks to receive God's grace and impart too ! What a forum this is ! All sadhaks deserve grace of My Narain !! My time has come now! Narain ! Narain !! Devi Mahalaxmiji , you have certainly mis read Mike Keenor. No where from his message referred by you, a negativity towards you or towards your Ramchandra can be seen by an impartial eye. Hence you may focus yourself with positive attitude more on correcting your inner bhavas. Time has come for you to think impartially. Age is running away. A lot of work is to be done. Start seeing Narain in everyone. No body is bad in this universe. How can there be any in the Creation made by All Merciful, All Powerful, All Knowing Narain ? Narain ! Narain!! Devi Nandaji ! Your concerns are really deep and are truthful. It is generally seen that there is a tendency in male to dominate females. This topic , in fact, needs to be analysed in more detail by Sadhaks here. There is a truth DEFINITELY in what you have stated. But the reasons, may be many. In order to correctly analyse , you have to go deep into many aspects e g Narains' creation, nature of a female, precedences following from Sanatan dharma, upbringings, insistences by females to acquire equality, gunas of females vis a vis males, natural tendencies in nature (prakrati) and Purusha, division of dharmas between the two, and ease of paths as compared with the other as per Naraina's creation in God Realisation etc etc. It should be understood that there are certain divisions which are made by Naraina Himself from Day 1 in His Divine Leela. Any modification thereof is bound to cause agitation in system. Hence an indepth deliberation by Sadhaks of this divine forum WITHOUT LIKINGS OR DISLIKINGS , and an enthusiastic participation by all with samata only can bring out "nectar" out of this SAMUNDRA MANTHAN. I dont agree with Arya Narinder that enough is enough. If any topic needs analysis, it is this ! Narain ! Narain !! As regards Alcohal consumption, least said the better. It is one of MAHA PAPAS. ( Greatest Sins). But again you should go deep into it. First intellect gets bad and then one consumes Alcohal or when one consumes Alcohal then intellect goes bad !!! Narain ! Narain !!Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharshi --------- Hari OmNandaji, that man may have a University degree but he sure sounds like an oxymoron without the oxy. Education is not the criteria for abuse - many men and women who have or do not have Degrees are abusers. Ego and inferiority and superiority complexes on both sides are the key reasons. I implore the abused to get away from such an environment. Bhagavan does not want us to suffer so staying in an abused environment and accepting abuse is wrong! He does not want us to torture ourselves and live in misery and victimhood. Never! Bhagavan Shri Krishna warns us about this in Chapter 17 Verse 5.Those who undergo severe austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride, egoism, lust and attachment, who are impelled by passion and who torture their bodily organs as well as the Supersoul dwelling within are to be known as demons. Don't let an abuser intimidate us or our life. Take solace from Bhagavan as He tells us in Chapter 12 Verse 13 and 14. One who is not envious but who is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor, who is free from false ego and equal both in happiness and distress, who is always satisfied and engaged in devotional service with determination and whose mind and intelligence are in agreement with Me--he is very dear to Me. We should not be baffled but we should seek answers from Gita which Bhagavan Shri Krishna gave to us. Let us also seek answers from ourselves. We must lose ego and seriously consider whether we are at fault also and what we can do to improve the situation. But, firstly, we MUST escape abusive environments! May Bhagavan Bless us all!Krishna S Narinedath - PRIOR POSTING Dear Vyas jee, we are so fortunate to have many Gems like yourself and highly evolved souls sharing thoughts ................in this satsang.. narinder knows but little and cannot lay claim to anything Absolute. His knowledge flows from an inner Silence ....................... as narinder becomes aware of the words that have flowed from the Eternal Source, from the Knowers of Truth, from Krishna , to become scriptures, the words lead the mind back to the source ..... Silence......... and, there is Joy of Understanding and a feeling of Love , One-ness ; Joy and Love that have no cause, no reason .................... that source , that silence, can not express itself as the One side of the coin............... whenever there is expression, it occurs along with its exact opposite .... and both negate each other to merge and be the Silence they are .............. That is why Buddha says, " the only True answer is ... " Yes, No, both and neither ! " narinder knows not much ...........................and is content with what Silence makes him available.. Doing and knowing were felt as burdens for so many lifetimes ............. and now, in the Silence of 'this moment now ', narinder seems to be free of the burden ! Knowing and Doing happen .......... they are not Knowing and Doing any more ........ Yes, very True, Vyas jee ....... even though there are THREE main Paths to self realisation............. Karma, Bhakti and Gyana...... each person has to create his own Path to the Self........ with the Self , the Light of lights, guiding each person with Love and Compassion...and, that, sir, is the Beauty of Bhagvada geetha ! Bhagvada Geetha , the Song Celestial , bears witness to the thoughts that arise , when one is silent Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. what wonderfully true words Vyas jee .................the words ' dive-in ' ................... dive into the Ocean, rather than keep skimming on the Surface , from point A to point B, to point C, to point D and so on ! When we dive-in , it is from point A1, to point A2, to point A 3, to point A4 ....... and yet deeper and deeper .......... only to discover our inability to really fathom the depth of the Ocean ..... however deep we dive-in ; yet, we do become aware of the un-knowable depth of the ocean , and that the wave is not other than the Ocean ! The self in me is the self in all ! This skimming is the love of words, and is a trap; and, the only process to go beyond the words is ... Meditation, Silence, Samadhi , diving into the Ocean ................... so the Knowers of Truth have averred .............. Ah, how to sing the praises of Meditation as the way ......where as Chapters 6,7 and 9 give some effective techniques of meditation, , almost every chapter of the Bh. Gt has reference to Meditation ................. there are shalokas and shalokas extolling Meditation , or giving tips to aid Meditation ! As regards , ' too many words' ............... it is a general statement ............ we tend to become prisoners of words : words can either become bridges to the self, or lead us astray into concepts and conditionings of the Mind. It is these concepts and conditionings that eclipse the ever -present Light in the individual. Narinder's guru often advised narinder that there was a Time to assimilate the words ............. and then have a break from the words .............. time to reflect, and test the wisdom of the words in one's own conduct . Narinder found this advice very useful. It enabled narinder to move deeper into Meditation fairly quickly. thank you for helping narinder to clear any ambiguity in his expression ........ Vyas jee ........... what more to say Vyas jeeo ........ and how, pray ? thank you for your words, Vyas jee. With respectful one-ness, Jai Jai Krishna, Vyas jee and other sadhakas true.......... AUM narinder---------- Pranaam Mike Ji, I joined a group to address Alcohol Abuse as there was no Hindu in the group and one thing I learnt is that Alcohol is addictive and once it gets into your system you will do anything to get it. Alcohol was not allowed in our home, its effect affected everyone as ppl close to our family had alcohol abuse problems. Those men that abuse their wives and children because of liquor is an effect of the liquor taking over their brain/mind. That is one of the effects of alcohol abuse. There are men who are not alcoholics, have no substance abuse, have University degrees, are very knowledgeable about Scriptures esp. Bhagwad Gita and they abuse there wives. To preach Bhagwad Gita and be abusive to your wife(a lady) is like an oxymoron. This is something that baffles me. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)Dandava pranams.... I would like to ask a question of Mike......I have looked for 1/2 an hour for a posting he wrote on this topic, but I can't find it. I recall him writing to the extent of "I should pray for Ramachandra for Mahalaksmi?" So, I am asking, Mike, you are my brother, are you not? Do you have a problem praying for your sister's advancement in life? Certainly, I hope that all will pray for me as well, as I am continually sunk in the abyss of self pity and deception.....but your letter certainly stuck me as suggesting that you thought my request was inappropriate. Am I correct? Indeed, it may have been more appropriate if I had asked that those williing pray for me as well, I certainly have mounds of ignorance to contend with, so if that was your reminder, much appreciation. Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- This is a direct response to sister Mahalakshmi Dasi with respects to,'MyRamachandra": I read this post several times, and considered why the drunkard?Robert Burns, the great Scottish poet ended up a drunkard, Kahlil Gibranlikewise. Why oh why? So often do beautiful souls go on a path of selfdistruction.I think Don McLean's haunting song 'Vincent',(Van Gogh), touched on why.I listened again on U tube, the telling line was; "I could have told you Vincentthat the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you". Vincents solutionwas to shoot himself, and others booze, drugs and so on.The opiates are like a blind between them and the 'Divine Light', they haveturned in the wrong direction, that is because they are full of fear, afraid ofwhat they may find in 'The Light'.I have not mentioned any particular Shloka in Gitaji, but Chapters 14 and 16 arewrapped all around this thread. Finally with regards to this paste:".. and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith thatone day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg thatthose who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan sayprayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weightsthat bind him to passion and ignorance. Please do not put any one on the spot, "I wonder if my relationship to 'BelovedBhagwan', is strong enough to pray for Ramachandra for Mahalakshmi?". The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ---------- Hari Om Narinderji, Gita prescribes/details minimum 25 independent ways of God Realisation. Meditation is one of them and has been stated in the Gita itself to be the most difficult one. Also your comments that Path of Inner Wisdom ( meditation ultimately) as stated in Gita to be better than Path of Action (Karma) is incorrect. Also, it is premature to state "enough said, heard and read" as lot of areas need further clarity for sadhaks and it is through such forums that on e can resolve doubts, decide and settle on a path. Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om I thank you for this discussion. I was abused. I showed your emails to him. First he got angry and shouted when I show them to him then a few days after I saw him read them. He ask for new ones and I can see change in him.Is short time since this change but it made great difference in my life.Thanks to you everyone. I no longer want to run away and I no longer feel sick. Preeti---------------------------Namaste There would be less problems in our life if we consider Bhagavan Lord Krishna as our guru, counselor, psychologist, and psychiatrist, and regard GEETA as the Handbook of Life, the manual we should refer to in our daily lives. Bhagavan is Everything to us: I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus.The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable. (As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!GEETA 9:16-19 We have agreed never to waste a single moment on anger and arguments because, ultimately, it is waste of our time and energy and life as a human being is too precious to be frittered away on unpleasantness. Both of us do not want to prove to anyone that we know more than them, or that we are the most moral and high-standing religious people. We are blessed to have acquired knowledge so we use that blessing to improve ourselves and help others. To thee, who dost not carp, verily shall I now declare this, the most profound knowledge, united with realisation, having known which, thou shalt be free from evil (Samsâra).GEETA 9:1 All we do and every moment of our lives are an offering to Bhagavan so we try to conduct ourselves in a manner that is befitting to Bhagavan's Gift to us, the Bhagavad Geeta. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I acceptâ€"the devout gift of the pure-minded. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me. GEETA 9:26-27 Both of us have cast away the False Ego to the point where each of us do not want to be right at the expense of anger, abuse, and angst in our lives. We give in to each other so that there is never any heated arguments and debates but since both of us can't be wrong all the time, we seek guidance and advice from GEETA. Instead of dissonance, we have lots of love, romance, satisfaction, and serenity in our lives. We don't depend on anyone, even each other, for happiness and we accept responsibility and admit our errors and try to rectify them. The heaviest burden is lifted off our shoulders and suddenly vanishes when we confess to the the mistakes we make and learn from them. We are human, thus we err, but when we admit and confess, and try our very best not to repeat those errors, life becomes guiltless and we no longer possess the need scapegoat anyone. We deal with unpleasant behavior with exactly the opposite: we smile, we say Please, Thanks, Have a Blessed day, May Bhagavan Bless you, but we do not get into debates and confrontations with loud and rowdy people. When we counteract evil and uncivil behavior with goodness, smiles, and good manners, the others are shocked, almost speechless, when they realize you are being nice to them rather than retaliating. We try to return evil with goodness. How did we develop these habits? Read GEETA, think of Bhagavan Lord Krishna every moment. You can't be evil, nasty, attack others, and unpleasant if you have Bhagavan with you every moment of your existence, 24/7, 365 days per year. You can't abuse anyone when you have GEETA as the manual of life and Bhagavan Lord Krishna as your constant companion. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GEETA 9:34 Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Dear SaadhikaAbuse by itself is inacceptable. Women strongly resist the fact that they are affected by it. We need to accept first it is happening to me. The abuser already has problem in his/ her behaviour and is execising one's power(physical, position, psychological). Any response with even an element of aggression often aggravates the situation. Reciever becomes more vulnerable...Being recognised as spouse of someone itself is a worldly identity. Veena--------------------------- " It is unclear where this discussion is leading..... .. " ( quote, Moderators )narinder agrees ! What needs to be said has been said ....................... enough said, heard and read ! the moderators have outlined beautifully the wisdom on the subject ............. " Right and Wrong are only thoughts The Immutable Law of Cause and Effect remains sacrosanct ............. become aware of the operation of this Law in your own life , as also in the world around you ...if a person is willing to ' accept' the effect (results) of his action , he/ she may do whatever he considers right .......... BUT imponderable is the nature of Action................... 'even the wise are deluded about the True nature of Action ! '( Bh. Gt. Ch 3, Sh 16) and, ............. in the fast- moving chain of ' Cause and Effect.', how would a person really know what exactly is 'Right Action ' ? how would one be able to catch ' the wisdom of NOW ' in the chain of cause and effect ? the easiest way is to be guided by some ' kasauti' .......... by the wisdom of the scriptures, saints , and the sages....... and this is also BEST in the long run........ The ONLY TRUE Solution is the deeper understanding of Bhagwad Geetha's guidance to move into your own inner wisdom .............. ' Far lower than the Yoga -of-Wisdom is action, O Dhananjaya. Seek thou refuge in wisdom; ........................"( Ch 2, Sh 40) and to move into the Yoga of wisdom, meditation is the Way .............. the only Way......... and it is Karamyoga, which prepares the mind to move into meditation ( Chapter 4).............' all actions culminate in knowledge '( Ch 4, sh 33 ) the sadhakas are advised to seek the 'Knowledge' from the Knowers of Truth .............. by long prostration, by question, , and sewa( service)............ Ch 4, sh 34. ah, what more to add .................. too many words already !!!! AUM, narinder -------------------------- Namaste. I cannot overemphasize the critical necessity for people to get out of an abusive environment. It could be that Karma is the reason, but Karma does not require us to remain frozen and fixed, unwilling to respond, while suffering in an abusiverelationship. The tendency of the abused is to remain and try to resolve the situation but if this fails, then we must face realism and stop others from inflicting abuse on us. Everyday, we read of women, children, and men who are attacked and assaulted while in anabusive environment; this is sufficient cause for us to move away from such an environment. Bhagavan wants us to be alert and act with alacrity in situations where we are in peril, rather than being fatalistic and accepting it as "fate and destiny." Karma does not implyaccepting our station in life and doing nothing about it. We must never allow the abuser to believe we are afraid to end a relationship, or we do not want to leave because of economic circumstances, or we will not end the relationship because we want to 'uphold the reputation' of family and relatives, thus continuing to suffer. Act now, and move on with our lives rather than abused. The message of Bhagavan in Geeta to Arjuna, and all of us, is to develop equanimity and poise, to remain balanced in cases of joy, happiness, and roller-coaster extremes, but never to surrender to abuse and accept pain, agony, and distress. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------------------Hari Om Nandaji has indeed given beautiful points re the ABUSE in marital life. So far I had reflected based on "case for discussion/opinion". I appreciate that does not fully address the ideal conduct, when things are beyond a limit. Sure ! By all means and to the best of my knowledge and belief, and always trying to be equanimous , I shall address, one by one, in detail, the real genuine questions raised by Nandaji , in her capacity as social reformer, well wisher and social worker. I always believe that any Religion ultimately must be practical. If there is mere theory without an adaptability, then that is at the most "idealism" not "religion". Religion ! Sadhana !! They must be practical and be easily adaptible in day to day life. I have experiences behind me supported by impeccable and unfailing Principles of Ideal Conduct. I will love to share them for benefit of all. Sadhaks ! Kindly supplement as much as you can to the views of Nandaji. They reflect a most common and genuine obstacle faced by the best creation of Mother Nature and Father Paramatma - a female ! A creation the "Mother form" of which has been hailed to be equal to the God by all religions and Scriptures across the globe, from time immemorial ! A creation which in all forms has been stated to be 1000 times more superior than the males in many many respects by all Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. A creation which has no parallel when it comes to tolerance- austerity, trust, faith, belief, capacity and single pointed devotion ! A creation which is so unique and essential that without its presence therein , no house can be called a HOME . No male, if he is a gruhustha, can ever become rich in long run, without being respectful to his wife - it is a law. A very creator of all of Jeevas. A very preserver of all Jeevas. A Queen in her own right of every home. A Shakti. A Grihalaxmi. An Annapoorna ! Next best creation in the universe is again feminine only- the Holy Cow . I shall start replying sentence by sentence from next posting onwards. I shall wait for more views for a day. May EQUANIMITY be with me ! Pranaams and with gratitude. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------- Dear sadhaks/ sadhikas , narinder has been reading all the answers in this 'very valid subject', in Today's scenerio (and the related subjects of marital violence, and infidelity,and so on) . He finds the most apt answer ....... for those, who choose to be sadhaks/ sadhikas in Sri Rajneet Singh's thoughts below : "tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his/her own part. If one party does not carry out one's part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his/ her own ? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the spouse becomes exactly what he/ she decries in the other ................ narinder' s only message on all the questions would always be: " Do yourself a favour. To free yourself from all dependency ( objects and relationships), and to get the True Answer to your question from within yourself, become a sincere Sadhaka. Desire to move beyond the limitations of the Mind by going beyond the Mind. Beyond the Words . Take to Meditation. Regular contact with a living Master does wonders . Learn the art of bowing at His feet . aapo deepo bhava ................ be your own Guru( LIGHT )................................... Meditate, Meditate, Meditate............" AUM narinder - My pranaams to all Sadhaks. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, My pranaams--at your feet in salute to what you have shared with us,for what you have endured and are enduring. People use ego as an excuse for their cruel and inhumane behaviour towards their victims. What I have seen here is almost the same response and excuses given to Counsellors/Psychologists. What excuse a man has to scream/shout/use profanities at his wife? What does her ego have to do with him doing that? Each of us are responsible for our own behaviour, what comes out of our mouths is our own responsibility. (message shortened - Gita Talk Moderators) My Father and Mother have been role models for me. My father expressed two days before passing away in my Mother's arms that everything he is, is because of my mother. Ego is the factor for men as is the case when they abuse their wives but the ego of the wives do not figure in these cases as part of the abuse is to erase the ego of the wives and beat them down emotionally so they do not even know that they have a choice to leave. My Psychologist say, watch those who are talking about Egos and examine their lives. He says that only when Hindu/Indian men are forced by Law to come and get help do they come to him--under duress and they resist the counselling too. (if needed contact Moderators for email / numbers). I salute Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji for staying in the home--not everyone has the strength to do so. A Sadhak who was abused by her Pati Dev--one she revered as Lord Narayana as Dr Ranjeet Singh said one ought to do. The abuse started from the wedding night, starting with physically forcing himself on her (details excluded), later followed by forcing alcohol and cooking non-vegetarian foods. What excuse can any human being much less a Pati Dev have for doing this --can anyone explain this? Yet he says that his wife has an Ego problem...Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji, I pray that your Ramachandra one day will wake up to the fact that he has a Devi in his life. He must have done very very good karmas in his previous life to have gotten such a Devi as his Patni. I pray that you have the divine happiness that you deserved. Krishna Ji, only in poverty cases do girls get married to get out of that kind of life. Whether the wives are financially dependent or not--this does not protect them from abuse rather--it is one of the reasons for abuse. Lazy husbands marry financially secured women for money and when they do so they abuse them so as to stamp their authority and demean their wives and so the mental and emotional abuse is used as the only means of getting these women to stay with them and support them. As Dr Ranjeet Singh mentioned, we honor our Pati Dev as Bhagwaan--that is why we also do arti and touch their feet. As was said during the Saat Pheres( marriage vows) the husbands are duty bound to take care of their wives and children--that is Sanatana Dharma plain and simple. Not the wives must go out and work just so that in case the husband decide to start abusing she can support herself!!! This is accepting abuse as a way of life. Abuse is not a way of life and to accept it is just adding onto the misery of future generations. Rather than tell my daughter to go make sure that you are qualifed and can support yourself in case your husband abuses you--is it not better to say--do that and stay single so that you won't have the grief of enduring abuse at the hands of the man who promised to love, support and protect you? This lady whose husband abused her did not want her only child to marry any Hindu man--. Just before I end this lengthy post--I want to draw attention to something happening in the US. Bill Cosby and some other very famous African American men started a campaign to go out into communities and talk to African American men. They literally are telling them that their behaviour is responsible for the breakdown within their communities etc. My prayer is that one day we have Hindu groups led by Hindu men who will speak up vehemently about abusive behaviour. And I do not mean like some of those leaders today who are abusive in their own lives and still telling others that abuse is bad--I mean genuine people whose lives at home is Satsangha and is teaching others by their living examples how to have that kind of life in their own homes. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)------------------------Hari Om This refers to message of Dr Ranjeet Singh. While he has echoed how a sadhak should be, but I don't think that a female should take "abuse" ( raising the hand agst female, utter continuous disrespect/harrassment to her, cruelty, haunting her etc) in any case. She can without leaving the home, if in-laws/husband are unbearably harassing her, she can seek external help. I am myself in favour of an austerity, but not in favour of cruelty. There is no doubt that there has to be a "line of demarcation". There is a difference between "testing/difficult circumstances" and "impossible circumstances" (abuse). Cruelty, physical beating etc are "abuse" Moreover, "pativrata" dharma does not get vitiated by seeking external help. "Pativrata" dharma is a "bhava" (inner sentiment). If some one has become sick, putting him in hospital is not wrong. If she is pativrata, and hubby is very cruel and she seeks external help to save herself- she continues to be "pativrata" ! As regards sentiments: Alas wives don't consider hubbies to be God, it is an easy and ideal solution, sure but in the present times it is becoming rarer and rarer. There are many reasons for the same, not all are exclusively dependent upon wife. I don't say it is not ideal or very difficult, I say there are SOME subtle things of Law of Karma also preventing it/playing role in it . Lady following "Pativrata" dharma and her husband generally were husband and wife only in the prior life too. Their relationship is continuous journey, taking peak shape in present birth. It is an austerity of an extra ordinary nature for wife. Her prior life "sanskars" , present life education , contractual obligations of prior life, also play some roles. It is a topic of detail. I also believe that most of the newly wed wives , if not all, enter hubby's house with an intention of becoming "pativrata" . I don't believe any wife is "non pativrata" in the beginning itself. Sentiment changes later, due to variety of reasons. She has many options of God Realisation and has a freedom to choose one . Pativrata Dharma is one of them only. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt------------------------ ------------- Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh. --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji.. just a thought... Let us see how messages of our scriptures / sadhak's experiences can help us deal/cope with worldly problems / issues at a personal level . It may be difficult to deal with all situations beyond our individual control. Sadhaks... Any feedback ? Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in theirrelations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. Thisapplies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by maleemploys...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominatedeven by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period ofRamayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree SwatantryamArhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices forthe family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run vythe wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children.then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the maledomination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? Therefore, accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness;Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse and it is even more hellish when you are abused because you are pursuing a life of sadhana. It is worse when your spouse promised not to interfere with your spiritual life and encouraged you before marriage then immediately starts to abuse you after marriage. So Vyas Ji---not in all cases it is that the conduct of the husband is making you turn toward God--you are already in God's direction and he(the husband )is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive and what they do is accuse you of being abusive and trying to tarnish their reputation even though they themselves have done that by being abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath You can only help and give advise if you are allowed to do so. How can you approach a man who shouts/curses/abuses you to tell them that they need to see a counsellor? They never listen. It is Ego as Vyas Hi said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact.Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God and many do adore their husbands like that--do arti and touch their feet etc. It is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other acheve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you?So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two? Regards,Nanda (Shree Hari Ram Ram Nandaji, please be concise next time, Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram) ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit:/message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING --------------- My Pranaams to all Sadhakas. Sri Naarad N Maharshi Ji-- Narain ! Narain !! Thank you for your message and thank you for sharing with all of us. Brother Mike Ji, thank you for sharing your story. You are a blessing to all of us and a great example of humility. Bahen Mahalakshmidasi Ji, I was not able to reply earlier to your comment to Brother Mike and am sorry that you missed his immediate prayer for our Ramachandra. With so many good souls praying with you--you will get your heart's longing soon. Krishna Ji, Thanks for all your messages. A word of caution--never tell the following remarks to victims of abuse--"Let us also seek answers from ourselves. We must lose ego and seriously consider whether we are at fault also and what we can do to improve the situation---Krishna S Narinedath" As was mentioned countless times--victims are not responsible for the behaviour of their abusers.The abusers are fully responsible for their abusive behaviour and unless they take responsibility they will continue to be abusive---as you mentioned--Chapter 17 Verse 5, when one is abusive they are also also abusing The Divine within themselves.This alone should deter anyone from being abusive especially one who claims to be a devotee of Bhagwad Gita and Lord Krsna. This is the message that every Sadhaka especially males should be spreading and with this start we can begin the change and be the change to end the scourge of Domestic Abuse.There are many who are abusive and preaching Bhagwad Gita and when we take a stand and say--you are not worthy to preach to others until you learn to apply Bhagwad Gita to your own life. Only this way will we be able to stop the double standard and hypocrisy. Vyas Ji, my eternal pranaams for allowing all of us to dive into, explore and address a topic that many stifle or turn away from. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) --------- Narain ! Narain !! What a beautiful term is this EQUANIMITY ! I call it "SINLESSNESS" !! How long we shall continue seeing in fault in others? You become faultless, and the world shall become so, automatically, effortlessly. It is promise of Narain's immortal Gita. He is bad, she is bad, he is alcoholic, she is abuser, he is egoist , she is arrogant. LOOK WITHIN. There is Divine residing. You can not see fault in others unless you have fault in yourself. The moment you become EQUANIMOUS , you become Divine and for you the world also becomes Divine. Such a simple thing. Narain ! Narain !! More we get into personal likings/dislikings, more disturbed we become. More we want to change others to suit us, more difficult others become. Narain is smiling on all. Smile with Him on His creation. Every Jeeva is bound by ignorance, ego, prior life Karmas.- KARMANUBANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE. If at all you want others to change - Look at them in an equanimous manner, and the others change. Dont consider other to be "mine" and other changes. Dont expect anything from others and others change. Why do we go with a begging bowl to the world with desires? Please help me ! Please help me !! No body can help you ! No body is capable to pray for you ! Become of Narain yourself ! You are children of Narain ! Why reduce yourself to a DESIRER? Why make yourself "dependent" ? Life , entire human life, passes with such false notions, concepts, and thoughts. From time immemorial, we have been coming and going. Now SATSANGA has come to us , take benefit. BECOME DESIRELESS ! The world will fall at your feet. Narain! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi ---------- Shree Krishna Message by Catherine Anderson is worth reading again and again. It is surprising how God's name can cause a change in Jeeva. So was the message of Deosharan ! May this forum live long !! To my mind, it is contractual obligations of Jeeva which present such circumstances, and the moment Jeeva resorts to Equanimity , as suggested by Catherine Anderson, there is an instant relief. That reconciles all view points. I agree with Naaradji that this topic should be deliberated with Equanimity by all sadhaks. There should be a BHAVA in all of us that whenever we write anything , say at least under this topic, we MUST adopt impartiality. Let us try this for one topic. Later on, we may make it a habit. Let us threadbare examine this problem of abuse, by husbands of wives, and find out REAL core causes of the same. But I found there is a resistance even to that. Why ? No body here is causing any negativity. We all have genuine objects. Why then there should be a sudden feeling that enough is enough ? Alcohal abuse, wife abuse, child abuse- they all arise out of GUNAS , Minds and emotions such as ego/ hatred/negativity and are BIG SINS. Religion, Saints and Sages, Gita, Ramayana , Sadhaks have answers for the same.Why we should not discuss them ? What is the problem to Mr Narinder? It is a topic for HUMANITY at large. NEGATIVITIES arise because of PARTIALITY , differences insisted upon GENDERS, not because of truths. Discussion should not escalate to "personal" levels. It should be on principles. If this forum, with so many evolved souls in it, does not arrive at conclusions, which other such forum is there , in the planet ? There is no point in getting personal - my husband , your wife, pray for me, am I not this or that , enough is enough, dont know where the discussion is heading- non sense ! Let us pick the basics and deliberate, else this forum will lose the very talent , which by Divine Will has accumulated at one place. WHERE IS THE PLACE FOR PERSONAL LIKINGS AND DISLIKINGS IN SUCH DIVINE FORUMS ? Hope I have not offended any one. But such an attitude , of getting personal, if given encouragement will never yield Divine results. We must trust in people like Mike Keenor or Miraji Dass or Vyasji or Sathynarainji and not allege them of being negative. Why at all they should become negative? They are sadhaks in their own rights. By alleging them, what will you gain? They will stop writing. That is all ! Pranaams Swami Rupesh Kumar ---------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas and Mahalakshmi Dasijee, NamaskarOur scriptures, including Geetajee, since Vedic times, favour a male dominatedsociety, males have taken advantage of it and women have suffered throught ourhistory.Our women, still do not want to come out of it. Every Year, married womenperform Vat Savitri Vrat so that they get the same husband, irrespective of hisvices, continuously for seven births.I feel one good thing that, atleast in the eighth birth they would like tochange him and expect a better one.I heard a very thought-provocative story about this Vat Savitri Vrat.In a village school, all the women teachers came to take their clases on a VatSavitri Poonam, dressed in expensive silk sarees and wearing all of theirornaments, while the woman peon of that school came in her routine saree andblouse. All the teachers asked her, did not you perform the Vat Savitri Vrat sothat you will get the same husband for seven births? We have performed thatPooja this morning.The modest lady replied...I am fed up with him in this birth itself and I wantto get rid of him right now if my in-laws and parents allow me to do so.But, she said, I have some doubts about this Vrat, will you please clarifythose.Go ahead, all the women teachers said.Well plase tell me, whether your husband is older than you, or of the same ageor smaller than you?All of the women teachers replied...he is older then us ..some said, he is olderby 12 years.Well is he more educated than you, or have the same level of education or he isless educated than you...All of the women teachers replied....He is more educated than us.Now all of you, just think for a minute...If you want the same husband in thenext birth...older by ten years and more educated...then he should die 10 or 12years before you...is that right?Logically yes, said the women teachers...Then my conclusion is...you are performing this Vrat so that your husband shoulddie before you and you should live a life of a widow for 10 years....Is that okfor you all?All the teachers did not say a word...and appreciated the wisdom of the womanpeon...Moral of the story.....come out of the male dominated Society of ours..In this respect, I appreciate the attitude of Western Women..If they do not gowell with their husbands..they just get seperated and prefer to live as singlemothers and bring up their kids with all the parental love and care. Our womenshould learn a lesson from this......Gee Waman--------- First and foremost is equanimity, not being affected by all ins and outs and being Gods only.I myself serve others doing Gods Will and also take care of His Temple. If there are those who do harm, if detached, if having equanimity how can one be affected? We do what we are supposed to do doing Gods Work peaceably despite all ins and outs, when we have loss of electricity for several weeks and then when electricity is back on how much we appreciate having this after losing it. If life is simple and uncomplicated my sister how can we be true servants to God if life is all ease? We go through testing but at times we can be examples by our own exemplary conduct that we do because we are to do not to be boastful that we are any better than anyone else.Yes I have been yelled at and use that time to maintain equanimity, to meditate and pray, when faced with hatred of others I pray remaining with equanimity although sometimes becoming effected and with tears but still we must keep up what is our aim which is our love unconditional for God who made us who is Vasudev Sarvam catherine andersen -ShreeHari- Dear Sister Mahalakshmi Ji, I noticed the moderator has placed the post of mine you queried at the top ofPRIOR POSTING, so as you can see I was musing upon why do good folk turn todrink etc.? Now I never wish to offend, (unfortunately I have! Due to my own lackabilities). Thus I can be a little inscrutable when dealing with people ingeneral. I think I spotted something in your previous post, sometimes we all 'cannot seethe wood for the trees', but you ask me, am I not your brother? Yes I am indeed! As a brother I looked at you statement regarding,"those who have strongrelationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for myRamachandra.." My ultimate response to that was:The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth. I would like to tell you a true story that happened to me:One night a couple years ago, I received a phone call from an old colleague from2000 miles away.He ask me if I could get some oil from the 'Weeping Maddona' for a dying man, asI lived in the town where the church was in which the statue resided.He understood that I did not approve of such things as idols and such, but alsoknew I would help.I rang up the priest, there and then,(I had no idea where the church was), weagreed to meet next morning, this rather sweet old priest led me to thepresbytery, to where she was held each night, one could see the circle of oilwhere she had stood, (she was in the church where pilgrims could view her), hethus scooped up some oil on a couple of cotton buds and put them in a polythenebag, (very fragrant).I was driving to my house, when out of curiosity I sniffed the oil, thestrangest thing happened, from my heart I felt the softest warmest sweetestfeeling radiating. A vibration of pure love. What a surprise to this hard nosedsceptic.By the way I now have a small statue of Quan Yin in the lounge representing theuniversal Goddess of Mercy and compassion.Do you understand that something I spotted sister? With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ---- Narain ! Narain!! Here I am, Divine Sadhaks to receive God's grace and impart too ! What a forum this is ! All sadhaks deserve grace of My Narain !! My time has come now! Narain ! Narain !! Devi Mahalaxmiji , you have certainly mis read Mike Keenor. No where from his message referred by you, a negativity towards you or towards your Ramchandra can be seen by an impartial eye. Hence you may focus yourself with positive attitude more on correcting your inner bhavas. Time has come for you to think impartially. Age is running away. A lot of work is to be done. Start seeing Narain in everyone. No body is bad in this universe. How can there be any in the Creation made by All Merciful, All Powerful, All Knowing Narain ? Narain ! Narain!! Devi Nandaji ! Your concerns are really deep and are truthful. It is generally seen that there is a tendency in male to dominate females. This topic , in fact, needs to be analysed in more detail by Sadhaks here. There is a truth DEFINITELY in what you have stated. But the reasons, may be many. In order to correctly analyse , you have to go deep into many aspects e g Narains' creation, nature of a female, precedences following from Sanatan dharma, upbringings, insistences by females to acquire equality, gunas of females vis a vis males, natural tendencies in nature (prakrati) and Purusha, division of dharmas between the two, and ease of paths as compared with the other as per Naraina's creation in God Realisation etc etc. It should be understood that there are certain divisions which are made by Naraina Himself from Day 1 in His Divine Leela. Any modification thereof is bound to cause agitation in system. Hence an indepth deliberation by Sadhaks of this divine forum WITHOUT LIKINGS OR DISLIKINGS , and an enthusiastic participation by all with samata only can bring out "nectar" out of this SAMUNDRA MANTHAN. I dont agree with Arya Narinder that enough is enough. If any topic needs analysis, it is this ! Narain ! Narain !! As regards Alcohal consumption, least said the better. It is one of MAHA PAPAS. ( Greatest Sins). But again you should go deep into it. First intellect gets bad and then one consumes Alcohal or when one consumes Alcohal then intellect goes bad !!! Narain ! Narain !! Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharshi---------Hari Om Nandaji, that man may have a University degree but he sure sounds like an oxymoron without the oxy. Education is not the criteria for abuse - many men and women who have or do not have Degrees are abusers. Ego and inferiority and superiority complexes on both sides are the key reasons. I implore the abused to get away from such an environment. Bhagavan does not want us to suffer so staying in an abused environment and accepting abuse is wrong! He does not want us to torture ourselves and live in misery and victimhood. Never! Bhagavan Shri Krishna warns us about this in Chapter 17 Verse 5.Those who undergo severe austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride, egoism, lust and attachment, who are impelled by passion and who torture their bodily organs as well as the Supersoul dwelling within are to be known as demons. Don't let an abuser intimidate us or our life. Take solace from Bhagavan as He tells us in Chapter 12 Verse 13 and 14. One who is not envious but who is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor, who is free from false ego and equal both in happiness and distress, who is always satisfied and engaged in devotional service with determination and whose mind and intelligence are in agreement with Me--he is very dear to Me. We should not be baffled but we should seek answers from Gita which Bhagavan Shri Krishna gave to us. Let us also seek answers from ourselves. We must lose ego and seriously consider whether we are at fault also and what we can do to improve the situation. But, firstly, we MUST escape abusive environments! May Bhagavan Bless us all! Krishna S Narinedath - Dear Vyas jee, narinder knowledge flows from an inner Silence ....................... as narinder becomes aware of the words that have flowed from the Eternal Source, from the Knowers of Truth, from Krishna , to become scriptures, the words lead the mind back to the source ..... Silence......... and, there is Joy of Understanding and a feeling of Love , One-ness ; Joy and Love that have no cause, no reason .................... that source , that silence, can not express itself as the One side of the coin............... whenever there is expression, it occurs along with its exact opposite .... and both negate each other to merge and be the Silence they are .............. That is why Buddha says, " the only True answer is ... " Yes, No, both and neither ! " narinder knows not much ...........................and is content with what Silence makes him available.. Doing and knowing were felt as burdens for so many lifetimes ............. and now, in the Silence of 'this moment now ', narinder seems to be free of the burden ! Knowing and Doing happen .......... they are not Knowing and Doing any more ........ each person has to create his own Path to the Self........ with the Self , the Light of lights, guiding each person with Love and Compassion...and, that, sir, is the Beauty of Bhagvada geetha ! Bhagvada Geetha , the Song Celestial , bears witness to the thoughts that arise , when one is silent Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. what wonderfully true words Vyas jee .................the words ' dive-in ' . dive into the Ocean, rather than keep skimming on the Surface , ..... however deep we dive-in ; yet, we do become aware of the un-knowable depth of the ocean , and that the wave is not other than the Ocean ! The self in me is the self in all ! This skimming is the love of words, and is a trap; and, the only process to go beyond the words is ... Meditation, Silence, Samadhi , diving into the Ocean ................... so the Knowers of Truth have averred .............. Ah, how to sing the praises of Meditation as the way ......where as Chapters 6,7 and 9 give some effective techniques of meditation, , almost every chapter of the Bh. Gt has reference to Meditation ................. there are shalokas and shalokas extolling Meditation , or giving tips to aid Meditation ! As regards , ' too many words' we tend to become prisoners of words : words can either become bridges to the self, or lead us astray into concepts and conditionings of the Mind. It is these concepts and conditionings that eclipse the ever -present Light in the individual. Narinder's guru often advised narinder that there was a Time to assimilate the words ............. and then have a break from the words .............. time to reflect, and test the wisdom of the words in one's own conduct . Narinder found this advice very useful. It enabled narinder to move deeper into Meditation fairly quickly. thank you for helping narinder to clear any ambiguity in his expression ........ Vyas jee ........... what more to say Vyas jeeo ........ and how, pray ? thank you for your words, Vyas jee. With respectful one-ness, Jai Jai Krishna, Vyas jee and other sadhakas true.......... AUM narinder---------- Pranaam Mike Ji, I joined a group to address Alcohol Abuse as there was no Hindu in the group and one thing I learnt is that Alcohol is addictive and once it gets into your system you will do anything to get it. Alcohol was not allowed in our home, its effect affected everyone as ppl close to our family had alcohol abuse problems. Those men that abuse their wives and children because of liquor is an effect of the liquor taking over their brain/mind. That is one of the effects of alcohol abuse. There are men who are not alcoholics, have no substance abuse, have University degrees, are very knowledgeable about Scriptures esp. Bhagwad Gita and they abuse there wives. To preach Bhagwad Gita and be abusive to your wife(a lady) is like an oxymoron. This is something that baffles me. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)Dandava pranams.... I would like to ask a question of Mike......I have looked for 1/2 an hour for a posting he wrote on this topic, but I can't find it. I recall him writing to the extent of "I should pray for Ramachandra for Mahalaksmi?" So, I am asking, Mike, you are my brother, are you not? Do you have a problem praying for your sister's advancement in life? Certainly, I hope that all will pray for me as well, as I am continually sunk in the abyss of self pity and deception.....but your letter certainly stuck me as suggesting that you thought my request was inappropriate. Am I correct? Indeed, it may have been more appropriate if I had asked that those williing pray for me as well, I certainly have mounds of ignorance to contend with, so if that was your reminder, much appreciation. Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------- -Shree Hari- This is a direct response to sister Mahalakshmi Dasi with respects to,'My Ramachandra": I read this post several times, and considered why the drunkard? Robert Burns, the great Scottish poet ended up a drunkard, Kahlil Gibran likewise. Why oh why? So often do beautiful souls go on a path of selfdistruction. I think Don McLean's haunting song 'Vincent',(Van Gogh), touched on why.I listened again on U tube, the telling line was; "I could have told you Vincentthat the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you". Vincents solutionwas to shoot himself, and others booze, drugs and so on.The opiates are like a blind between them and the 'Divine Light', they haveturned in the wrong direction, that is because they are full of fear, afraid ofwhat they may find in 'The Light'.I have not mentioned any particular Shloka in Gitaji, but Chapters 14 and 16 arewrapped all around this thread. Finally with regards to this paste:".. and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith thatone day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg thatthose who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan sayprayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weightsthat bind him to passion and ignorance. Please do not put any one on the spot, "I wonder if my relationship to 'BelovedBhagwan', is strong enough to pray for Ramachandra for Mahalakshmi?". The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor---------- Hari Om Narinderji, Gita prescribes/details minimum 25 independent ways of God Realisation. Meditation is one of them and has been stated in the Gita itself to be the most difficult one. Also your comments that Path of Inner Wisdom ( meditation ultimately) as stated in Gita to be better than Path of Action (Karma) is incorrect. Also, it is premature to state "enough said, heard and read" as lot of areas need further clarity for sadhaks and it is through such forums that on e can resolve doubts, decide and settle on a path. Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Hari Om I thank you for this discussion. I was abused. I showed your emails to him. First he got angry and shouted when I show them to him then a few days after I saw him read them. He ask for new ones and I can see change in him.Is short time since this change but it made great difference in my life.Thanks to you everyone. I no longer want to run away and I no longer feel sick. Preeti---------------------------Namaste There would be less problems in our life if we consider Bhagavan Lord Krishna as our guru, counselor, psychologist, and psychiatrist, and regard GEETA as the Handbook of Life, the manual we should refer to in our daily lives. Bhagavan is Everything to us: I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus.The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable. (As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!GEETA 9:16-19 We have agreed never to waste a single moment on anger and arguments because, ultimately, it is waste of our time and energy and life as a human being is too precious to be frittered away on unpleasantness. Both of us do not want to prove to anyone that we know more than them, or that we are the most moral and high-standing religious people. We are blessed to have acquired knowledge so we use that blessing to improve ourselves and help others. To thee, who dost not carp, verily shall I now declare this, the most profound knowledge, united with realisation, having known which, thou shalt be free from evil (Samsâra).GEETA 9:1 All we do and every moment of our lives are an offering to Bhagavan so we try to conduct ourselves in a manner that is befitting to Bhagavan's Gift to us, the Bhagavad Geeta. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I acceptâ€"the devout gift of the pure-minded. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me. GEETA 9:26-27 Both of us have cast away the False Ego to the point where each of us do not want to be right at the expense of anger, abuse, and angst in our lives. We give in to each other so that there is never any heated arguments and debates but since both of us can't be wrong all the time, we seek guidance and advice from GEETA. Instead of dissonance, we have lots of love, romance, satisfaction, and serenity in our lives. We don't depend on anyone, even each other, for happiness and we accept responsibility and admit our errors and try to rectify them. The heaviest burden is lifted off our shoulders and suddenly vanishes when we confess to the the mistakes we make and learn from them. We are human, thus we err, but when we admit and confess, and try our very best not to repeat those errors, life becomes guiltless and we no longer possess the need scapegoat anyone. We deal with unpleasant behavior with exactly the opposite: we smile, we say Please, Thanks, Have a Blessed day, May Bhagavan Bless you, but we do not get into debates and confrontations with loud and rowdy people. When we counteract evil and uncivil behavior with goodness, smiles, and good manners, the others are shocked, almost speechless, when they realize you are being nice to them rather than retaliating. We try to return evil with goodness. How did we develop these habits? Read GEETA, think of Bhagavan Lord Krishna every moment. You can't be evil, nasty, attack others, and unpleasant if you have Bhagavan with you every moment of your existence, 24/7, 365 days per year. You can't abuse anyone when you have GEETA as the manual of life and Bhagavan Lord Krishna as your constant companion. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GEETA 9:34 Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Dear SaadhikaAbuse by itself is inacceptable. Women strongly resist the fact that they are affected by it. We need to accept first it is happening to me. The abuser already has problem in his/ her behaviour and is execising one's power(physical, position, psychological). Any response with even an element of aggression often aggravates the situation. Reciever becomes more vulnerable...Being recognised as spouse of someone itself is a worldly identity. Veena--------------------------- " It is unclear where this discussion is leading..... .. " ( quote, Moderators )narinder agrees ! What needs to be said has been said ....................... enough said, heard and read ! the moderators have outlined beautifully the wisdom on the subject ............. " Right and Wrong are only thoughts The Immutable Law of Cause and Effect remains sacrosanct ............. become aware of the operation of this Law in your own life , as also in the world around you ...if a person is willing to ' accept' the effect (results) of his action , he/ she may do whatever he considers right .......... BUT imponderable is the nature of Action................... 'even the wise are deluded about the True nature of Action ! '( Bh. Gt. Ch 3, Sh 16) and, ............. in the fast- moving chain of ' Cause and Effect.', how would a person really know what exactly is 'Right Action ' ? how would one be able to catch ' the wisdom of NOW ' in the chain of cause and effect ? the easiest way is to be guided by some ' kasauti' .......... by the wisdom of the scriptures, saints , and the sages....... and this is also BEST in the long run........ The ONLY TRUE Solution is the deeper understanding of Bhagwad Geetha's guidance to move into your own inner wisdom .............. ' Far lower than the Yoga -of-Wisdom is action, O Dhananjaya. Seek thou refuge in wisdom; ........................"( Ch 2, Sh 40) and to move into the Yoga of wisdom, meditation is the Way .............. the only Way......... and it is Karamyoga, which prepares the mind to move into meditation ( Chapter 4).............' all actions culminate in knowledge '( Ch 4, sh 33 ) the sadhakas are advised to seek the 'Knowledge' from the Knowers of Truth .............. by long prostration, by question, , and sewa( service)............ Ch 4, sh 34. ah, what more to add .................. too many words already !!!! AUM, narinder -------------------------- Namaste. I cannot overemphasize the critical necessity for people to get out of an abusive environment. It could be that Karma is the reason, but Karma does not require us to remain frozen and fixed, unwilling to respond, while suffering in an abusiverelationship. The tendency of the abused is to remain and try to resolve the situation but if this fails, then we must face realism and stop others from inflicting abuse on us. Everyday, we read of women, children, and men who are attacked and assaulted while in anabusive environment; this is sufficient cause for us to move away from such an environment. Bhagavan wants us to be alert and act with alacrity in situations where we are in peril, rather than being fatalistic and accepting it as "fate and destiny." Karma does not implyaccepting our station in life and doing nothing about it. We must never allow the abuser to believe we are afraid to end a relationship, or we do not want to leave because of economic circumstances, or we will not end the relationship because we want to 'uphold the reputation' of family and relatives, thus continuing to suffer. Act now, and move on with our lives rather than abused. The message of Bhagavan in Geeta to Arjuna, and all of us, is to develop equanimity and poise, to remain balanced in cases of joy, happiness, and roller-coaster extremes, but never to surrender to abuse and accept pain, agony, and distress. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------------------Hari Om Nandaji has indeed given beautiful points re the ABUSE in marital life. So far I had reflected based on "case for discussion/opinion". I appreciate that does not fully address the ideal conduct, when things are beyond a limit. Sure ! By all means and to the best of my knowledge and belief, and always trying to be equanimous , I shall address, one by one, in detail, the real genuine questions raised by Nandaji , in her capacity as social reformer, well wisher and social worker. I always believe that any Religion ultimately must be practical. If there is mere theory without an adaptability, then that is at the most "idealism" not "religion". Religion ! Sadhana !! They must be practical and be easily adaptible in day to day life. I have experiences behind me supported by impeccable and unfailing Principles of Ideal Conduct. I will love to share them for benefit of all. Sadhaks ! Kindly supplement as much as you can to the views of Nandaji. They reflect a most common and genuine obstacle faced by the best creation of Mother Nature and Father Paramatma - a female ! A creation the "Mother form" of which has been hailed to be equal to the God by all religions and Scriptures across the globe, from time immemorial ! A creation which in all forms has been stated to be 1000 times more superior than the males in many many respects by all Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. A creation which has no parallel when it comes to tolerance- austerity, trust, faith, belief, capacity and single pointed devotion ! A creation which is so unique and essential that without its presence therein , no house can be called a HOME . No male, if he is a gruhustha, can ever become rich in long run, without being respectful to his wife - it is a law. A very creator of all of Jeevas. A very preserver of all Jeevas. A Queen in her own right of every home. A Shakti. A Grihalaxmi. An Annapoorna ! Next best creation in the universe is again feminine only- the Holy Cow . I shall start replying sentence by sentence from next posting onwards. I shall wait for more views for a day. May EQUANIMITY be with me ! Pranaams and with gratitude. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------- Dear sadhaks/ sadhikas , narinder has been reading all the answers in this 'very valid subject', in Today's scenerio (and the related subjects of marital violence, and infidelity,and so on) . He finds the most apt answer ....... for those, who choose to be sadhaks/ sadhikas in Sri Rajneet Singh's thoughts below : "tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his/her own part. If one party does not carry out one's part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his/ her own ? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the spouse becomes exactly what he/ she decries in the other ................ narinder' s only message on all the questions would always be: " Do yourself a favour. To free yourself from all dependency ( objects and relationships), and to get the True Answer to your question from within yourself, become a sincere Sadhaka. Desire to move beyond the limitations of the Mind by going beyond the Mind. Beyond the Words . Take to Meditation. Regular contact with a living Master does wonders . Learn the art of bowing at His feet . aapo deepo bhava ................ be your own Guru( LIGHT )................................... Meditate, Meditate, Meditate............" AUM narinder - My pranaams to all Sadhaks. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, My pranaams--at your feet in salute to what you have shared with us,for what you have endured and are enduring. People use ego as an excuse for their cruel and inhumane behaviour towards their victims. What I have seen here is almost the same response and excuses given to Counsellors/Psychologists. What excuse a man has to scream/shout/use profanities at his wife? What does her ego have to do with him doing that? Each of us are responsible for our own behaviour, what comes out of our mouths is our own responsibility. (message shortened - Gita Talk Moderators) My Father and Mother have been role models for me. My father expressed two days before passing away in my Mother's arms that everything he is, is because of my mother. Ego is the factor for men as is the case when they abuse their wives but the ego of the wives do not figure in these cases as part of the abuse is to erase the ego of the wives and beat them down emotionally so they do not even know that they have a choice to leave. My Psychologist say, watch those who are talking about Egos and examine their lives. He says that only when Hindu/Indian men are forced by Law to come and get help do they come to him--under duress and they resist the counselling too. (if needed contact Moderators for email / numbers). I salute Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji for staying in the home--not everyone has the strength to do so. A Sadhak who was abused by her Pati Dev--one she revered as Lord Narayana as Dr Ranjeet Singh said one ought to do. The abuse started from the wedding night, starting with physically forcing himself on her (details excluded), later followed by forcing alcohol and cooking non-vegetarian foods. What excuse can any human being much less a Pati Dev have for doing this --can anyone explain this? Yet he says that his wife has an Ego problem...Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji, I pray that your Ramachandra one day will wake up to the fact that he has a Devi in his life. He must have done very very good karmas in his previous life to have gotten such a Devi as his Patni. I pray that you have the divine happiness that you deserved. Krishna Ji, only in poverty cases do girls get married to get out of that kind of life. Whether the wives are financially dependent or not--this does not protect them from abuse rather--it is one of the reasons for abuse. Lazy husbands marry financially secured women for money and when they do so they abuse them so as to stamp their authority and demean their wives and so the mental and emotional abuse is used as the only means of getting these women to stay with them and support them. As Dr Ranjeet Singh mentioned, we honor our Pati Dev as Bhagwaan--that is why we also do arti and touch their feet. As was said during the Saat Pheres( marriage vows) the husbands are duty bound to take care of their wives and children--that is Sanatana Dharma plain and simple. Not the wives must go out and work just so that in case the husband decide to start abusing she can support herself!!! This is accepting abuse as a way of life. Abuse is not a way of life and to accept it is just adding onto the misery of future generations. Rather than tell my daughter to go make sure that you are qualifed and can support yourself in case your husband abuses you--is it not better to say--do that and stay single so that you won't have the grief of enduring abuse at the hands of the man who promised to love, support and protect you? This lady whose husband abused her did not want her only child to marry any Hindu man--. Just before I end this lengthy post--I want to draw attention to something happening in the US. Bill Cosby and some other very famous African American men started a campaign to go out into communities and talk to African American men. They literally are telling them that their behaviour is responsible for the breakdown within their communities etc. My prayer is that one day we have Hindu groups led by Hindu men who will speak up vehemently about abusive behaviour. And I do not mean like some of those leaders today who are abusive in their own lives and still telling others that abuse is bad--I mean genuine people whose lives at home is Satsangha and is teaching others by their living examples how to have that kind of life in their own homes. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)------------------------Hari Om This refers to message of Dr Ranjeet Singh. While he has echoed how a sadhak should be, but I don't think that a female should take "abuse" ( raising the hand agst female, utter continuous disrespect/harrassment to her, cruelty, haunting her etc) in any case. She can without leaving the home, if in-laws/husband are unbearably harassing her, she can seek external help. I am myself in favour of an austerity, but not in favour of cruelty. There is no doubt that there has to be a "line of demarcation". There is a difference between "testing/difficult circumstances" and "impossible circumstances" (abuse). Cruelty, physical beating etc are "abuse" Moreover, "pativrata" dharma does not get vitiated by seeking external help. "Pativrata" dharma is a "bhava" (inner sentiment). If some one has become sick, putting him in hospital is not wrong. If she is pativrata, and hubby is very cruel and she seeks external help to save herself- she continues to be "pativrata" ! As regards sentiments: Alas wives don't consider hubbies to be God, it is an easy and ideal solution, sure but in the present times it is becoming rarer and rarer. There are many reasons for the same, not all are exclusively dependent upon wife. I don't say it is not ideal or very difficult, I say there are SOME subtle things of Law of Karma also preventing it/playing role in it . Lady following "Pativrata" dharma and her husband generally were husband and wife only in the prior life too. Their relationship is continuous journey, taking peak shape in present birth. It is an austerity of an extra ordinary nature for wife. Her prior life "sanskars" , present life education , contractual obligations of prior life, also play some roles. It is a topic of detail. I also believe that most of the newly wed wives , if not all, enter hubby's house with an intention of becoming "pativrata" . I don't believe any wife is "non pativrata" in the beginning itself. Sentiment changes later, due to variety of reasons. She has many options of God Realisation and has a freedom to choose one . Pativrata Dharma is one of them only. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions: He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme.So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in their relations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. This applies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by male employees...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominated even by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period of Ramayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree Swatantryam Arhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices for the family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run by the wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children. then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the male domination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman ----- Hari Om Accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness; Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds of ignorance with the Sword of Knowledge, and concludes with a spirited call "Armed with Yoga, O BHARATA, stand and fight." This is a call to Hindus to get up and act, not to be meek and submissive. The best way for people to escape abuse is to get into a position where they do not depend on anyone to the extent that they cannot leave an abusive environment. Educate our children so that they will have their own jobs and careers, teach them the tenets of Dharma so that they will develop minds and bodies that will not accept or practise abuse, and instill the self-esteem and confidence in them so that they will not be vulnerable to the point that they believe they should accept abuse. Very important is that we must help people in these situations - help the woman or man to escape the abusers. We cannot stand aside and allow abuse to continue. Krishna S Narinedath --------------------------Hari Om No scripture wants a human to accept injustice or abuse. It is cowardice. Getting beaten physically by spouse certainly should not be tolerated. A spouse normally is required to do his/her duty only towards husband/wife. Duty is- What you can do and what you should do. A circumstance which does not allow you to function ceases to determine your duty. What you CAN is as important as what you SHOULD. Even Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that if hubby beats wife, it is duty of the parents of wife to bring her back to home. After all they had not married her for getting physically beaten. But, it is generally seen that a female tolerates sorrows as a mother vis a vis her children more maturely than as a wife. Normally there are lesser complaints in such a case. But when she suffers from husband , it becomes another type of issue. Same female as a mother or daughter or sister is different in attitude towards the sorrows than as a wife. But you have to take pains in human life. Dukhalayam only is this world basically. Pains are pains- whether they come father/mother/children/employers or hubby or from body. If females just see pains as the result of their past deeds / karma, irrespective of from where they come and take them as common to all humans, they will be better equipped. When son gives pains, you tolerate easily but when hubby gives, all sorts of issues arise. Why? Ego ! Same is the case with males. Fact is that it is ego which makes you suffer. While with respect to spouse, the hurt to ego is more than with respect to children/parents and hence the "perception" towards sorrow becomes different. Proof: In this forum mothers have not frequenly raised the Q as to how one should cope with son/daughter giving pains. Pains from hubby are more frequently the centre of Qs. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Pranaams. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, Your question is a natural progression of the discussion----How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests? Vyas Ji made a very profound statement when he said that--- Wives must respect hubbies if not for any other reason but for this solitary reason that it is their conduct towards them that made them turn towards God !!!! God indeed resides there too. Scriptures for aeons and ages are saying so. It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. The most hellish situation for anyone is to be in a home where you are subjected to abuse. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. Question is--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? Why does someone behave in an abusive manner? When we know God reside in each of us--why have God dwelling in an abusive body? The moment you open your mouth and scream and shout and use profanities at your spouse--that is abusive behaviour. That is not only abuse to the victim, it is abuse to the mortal body that God has given you. No one should stay in a home where they cannot pursue their sadhana. No one should stay in a home where they are subjected to constant abuse. Leave and go where you will be safe. Try your best to see how you can get help for your abusive spouse even though this is just an exercise in futility as the husbands never would accept that they are abusive. Be patient, take it slowly, consider this a project for YOUR spiritual advancement, and not you against the world. Remember, it is a great blessing to serve others and to help them on the right path, no matter how wide apart they maybe from you in terms of spirituality. Do not think of it as a self-centred journey of yours that is hindered by others but as total journey of you and husband and others who may be in a similar position as your husband. If you consider yourself as the catalyst for the advancement of spirituality in others then you would take a different approach and consider it a challenge to help your husband and others. ---Krishna S. Narinedath (message shortened by moderator) ----------- It is Ego as Vyasji said--It is ego that prevents us from appreciating this simple fact. Ego prevents many from accepting that they have a problem and they need help. So where does that leave the Sadhaka who is married to someone who is abusive to her especially because she is a Sadhaka? Choose--sadhana or spouse? We are taught that Husband is next to God however, it is extremely difficult to continue to respect someone whose mouth become a sewer when they get angry. No woman, or man, is destined to be confined into a marriage just for the sake of marriage. Bhagavan does not want any of His devotees to live superficial lives, but to strive toward the path of enlightenment and Unity with the Divine. We all make mistakes in life but Bhagavan is not vindictive; He wants us to acknowledge our errors and for us to learn from these past mistakes and help others who may be in a similar situation. Deosaran BisnathMarriage is as Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji said --we are meant to help each other achieve God realiazation. Can this happen when your spouse is abusing you? So he abuses you--what do you do? Leave and the man finds another spouse, and another and another----will that solve the problem, will the abuse not continue as the man still has the abusive personality? Is only the victim who has changed nothing else? Bhagwaan does not make us live superficial lives--we do that ourselves.Superficiality exist when people do not take responsibility for their actions and when those actions cause distress to another human will that ever lead anyone towards enlightenment? Can there be enlightenment in a life that is shrouded by an abusive personality? Do we seriously believe that we can fool God or bribe Him into accepting us when we have harassed people who are his devotees? Is this how we help others? I still cannot begin to comprehend how people can preach God realisation and Unity with Divinity and with that same mouth/hand insult those that are devoted to Him. Can Vyas Ji and the others here explain this? How do we reconcile the two?Regards,Nanda (many messages shortened due to space limitations. to see full messages see previous string) - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 QUESTION: When is Accepting Abuse Inappropriate? My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?". To read posting please visit: /message/2423 Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse fromtheir partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to dootherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn? Mahalakshmi Dasi QUESTION: where the scriptures is this subject addressed and what is stated? Ram Ram ------------------------ NEW POSTING Namaste In Geeta Chapter 9, verse 1, Bhagavan said: "My dear Arjuna, because you are never envious of Me, I shall impart to you this most secret wisdom." This Supreme secret promised by Bhagavan cannot be handed over by one person to another but has to be discovered, and the discovery comes in the state of total surrender. Many experts promise to tells us the 'secret' of happy marriages, but that 'secret' also lies within us - when both spouses surrender to offer total love to each other. Both promise each other that they will never waste a single precious moment of this human life, in conduct that will hurt each other. In such a marriage there can never be abuse. If one party reneges and does not reciprocate then the marriage will be filled with sorrow and pain. Do not punish yourself by remaining in that marriage. I experienced this, decided it was not worth it, and left. Bhagavad Geeta gave me the knowledge to act. Now my life is filled with love and bliss, praise be unto Bhagavan who showed me the way. Ram Ram Deosaran Bisnath ---- HARI OM.Nandaji, and to all. If it is one thing I hammer home to those who have problems or seek guidance is: NEVER SAY NEVER. Dispel gloom, pessimism, and negativity. Spring into action, do not wallow in self-pity and helplessness.If one is baffled, if one seeks answers, and if one wants to resolve problems one must get rid of ego and start with a clean slate, without preconceived notions of who is right and wrong, and allocating blame, guilt and remorse. To admit we were, are, and will be wrong is an essential fundamental principle in our daily lives. To err is human. To admit errors is Divine.We have seen too many couples arguing and blaming each other without any hope of resolving problems. We allow them to vent and get it out until they are spent. Then we try to convince them to stop blaming each other and finding faults. As soon as we do that there is great progress and success in getting positive results. We ask each person: is it more important for you to have a happy and eternal loving relationship or is it more important that you are NEVER at fault, that you were NEVER wrong, but the significant other is always at fault and wrong? This is EGO at work, blinding us to our natural self and the path to peace, love, and bliss. We want to be RIGHT, NEVER wrong! It is very difficult to cultivate happy relationships with such an attitude.Always, forever, we must look at all possibilities, including the fact that each person may be contributing to problems. We MUST not be consumed with false pride and ego while unwilling to examine ourselves, our actions and our personal lifestyles, and to admit we are not absolutely morally upright; without guilt or sin. Taking that simple step is a quantum leap in one's personal development. It is the miracle we seek, especially if we want to share our lives with another in marriage. Try this in resolving problems and difficult issues. We have nothing to lose - if it fails then we move on, knowing we tried our best and we will be at peace with ourselves. NEVER give up. Seek Bhagavan's help, humans need Divine help. Seek answers in Gita. NEVER should NEVER be in our vocabulary for Bhagavan is FOREVER. May Bhagavan Bless us all, Krishna S Narinedath ------ My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... I am very much appreciative of all commentary given on this topic....even when there is something that I perhaps don't agree with, I am encouraged and appreciative by the concern that sadhaks find which inspires them to write in on this topic. I would like to express great appreciation for the recent post of "gee waman"...I must say, that in staying with my same husband year after year, it has brought out qualities of strength in me that were absolutely not there even 5 years ago. I have been constantly grateful to him, that though he may not always be here emotionally, physcially, financially, etc....it has given me steadiness of mind that he continues to come home and deal with the situation, rather than staying in the streets. There is stability that grows when one doesn't "change shoes every other week." Recently I refused to tell him details of a woman I was taking to a dr's appointment, as she was concerned about the confidentiality of her illness. He accused me of getting ready to give up all my religious principles. I said absolutely nothing to his tirade....just listened. After a day or two meditating on his words, I felt such joy, for at least he was recognizing that I had religiousness principles!!! I didn't know that I had any. So,now, I am learning to accept that it is still within my choice, not his, to decide if I will give up my religious principles.....not that his words have to be a fact. I have learnt that I have the right, as an individual, to take every statement he makes, and analyze, though often not carefully enough......and never to accept that simply because he is male and I am female, I have to feel that he is correct......though as many have suggested, silence is often the best response. Much gratitude again for all the support of those in this forum. Mahalaksmi Dasi ---PRIOR POSTINGMy Pranaams to all Sadhakas. Sri Naarad N Maharshi Ji-- Narain ! Narain !! Thank you for your message and thank you for sharing with all of us. Brother Mike Ji, thank you for sharing your story. You are a blessing to all of us and a great example of humility. Bahen Mahalakshmidasi Ji, I was not able to reply earlier to your comment to Brother Mike and am sorry that you missed his immediate prayer for our Ramachandra. With so many good souls praying with you--you will get your heart's longing soon. Krishna Ji,Thanks for all your messages. A word of caution--never tell the following remarks to victims of abuse--"Let us also seek answers from ourselves. We must lose ego and seriously consider whether we are at fault also and what we can do to improve the situation---Krishna S Narinedath"As was mentioned countless times--victims are not responsible for the behaviour of their abusers.The abusers are fully responsible for their abusive behaviour and unless they take responsibility they will continue to be abusive---as you mentioned--Chapter 17 Verse 5, when one is abusive they are also also abusing The Divine within themselves.This alone should deter anyone from being abusive especially one who claims to be a devotee of Bhagwad Gita and Lord Krsna. This is the message that every Sadhaka especially males should be spreading and with this start we can begin the change and be the change to end the scourge of Domestic Abuse.There are many who are abusive and preaching Bhagwad Gita and when we take a stand and say--you are not worthy to preach to others until you learn to apply Bhagwad Gita to your own life. Only this way will we be able to stop the double standard and hypocrisy. Vyas Ji, my eternal pranaams for allowing all of us to dive into, explore and address a topic that many stifle or turn away from. Regards,Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)---------Narain ! Narain !! What a beautiful term is this EQUANIMITY ! I call it "SINLESSNESS" !! How long we shall continue seeing in fault in others? You become faultless, and the world shall become so, automatically, effortlessly. It is promise of Narain's immortal Gita. He is bad, she is bad, he is alcoholic, she is abuser, he is egoist , she is arrogant. LOOK WITHIN. There is Divine residing. You can not see fault in others unless you have fault in yourself. The moment you become EQUANIMOUS , you become Divine and for you the world also becomes Divine. Such a simple thing. Narain ! Narain !! More we get into personal likings/dislikings, more disturbed we become. More we want to change others to suit us, more difficult others become. Narain is smiling on all. Smile with Him on His creation. Every Jeeva is bound by ignorance, ego, prior life Karmas.- KARMANUBANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE. If at all you want others to change - Look at them in an equanimous manner, and the others change. Dont consider other to be "mine" and other changes. Dont expect anything from others and others change. Why do we go with a begging bowl to the world with desires? Please help me ! Please help me !! No body can help you ! No body is capable to pray for you ! Become of Narain yourself ! You are children of Narain ! Why reduce yourself to a DESIRER? Why make yourself "dependent" ? Life , entire human life, passes with such false notions, concepts, and thoughts. From time immemorial, we have been coming and going. Now SATSANGA has come to us , take benefit. BECOME DESIRELESS ! The world will fall at your feet. Narain! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi ---------- Shree Krishna Message by Catherine Anderson is worth reading again and again. It is surprising how God's name can cause a change in Jeeva. So was the message of Deosharan ! May this forum live long !! To my mind, it is contractual obligations of Jeeva which present such circumstances, and the moment Jeeva resorts to Equanimity , as suggested by Catherine Anderson, there is an instant relief. That reconciles all view points. I agree with Naaradji that this topic should be deliberated with Equanimity by all sadhaks. There should be a BHAVA in all of us that whenever we write anything , say at least under this topic, we MUST adopt impartiality. Let us try this for one topic. Later on, we may make it a habit. Let us threadbare examine this problem of abuse, by husbands of wives, and find out REAL core causes of the same. But I found there is a resistance even to that. Why ? No body here is causing any negativity. We all have genuine objects. Why then there should be a sudden feeling that enough is enough ? Alcohal abuse, wife abuse, child abuse- they all arise out of GUNAS , Minds and emotions such as ego/ hatred/negativity and are BIG SINS. Religion, Saints and Sages, Gita, Ramayana , Sadhaks have answers for the same.Why we should not discuss them ? What is the problem to Mr Narinder? It is a topic for HUMANITY at large. NEGATIVITIES arise because of PARTIALITY , differences insisted upon GENDERS, not because of truths. Discussion should not escalate to "personal" levels. It should be on principles. If this forum, with so many evolved souls in it, does not arrive at conclusions, which other such forum is there , in the planet ? There is no point in getting personal - my husband , your wife, pray for me, am I not this or that , enough is enough, dont know where the discussion is heading- non sense ! Let us pick the basics and deliberate, else this forum will lose the very talent , which by Divine Will has accumulated at one place. WHERE IS THE PLACE FOR PERSONAL LIKINGS AND DISLIKINGS IN SUCH DIVINE FORUMS ? Hope I have not offended any one. But such an attitude , of getting personal, if given encouragement will never yield Divine results. We must trust in people like Mike Keenor or Miraji Dass or Vyasji or Sathynarainji and not allege them of being negative. Why at all they should become negative? They are sadhaks in their own rights. By alleging them, what will you gain? They will stop writing. That is all ! PranaamsSwami Rupesh Kumar ----------Dear Geeta Sadhakas and Mahalakshmi Dasijee, Namaskar Our scriptures, including Geetajee, since Vedic times, favour a male dominatedsociety, males have taken advantage of it and women have suffered throught ourhistory. Our women, still do not want to come out of it. Every Year, married womenperform Vat Savitri Vrat so that they get the same husband, irrespective of hisvices, continuously for seven births.I feel one good thing that, atleast in the eighth birth they would like tochange him and expect a better one. I heard a very thought-provocative story about this Vat Savitri Vrat. In a village school, all the women teachers came to take their clases on a VatSavitri Poonam, dressed in expensive silk sarees and wearing all of theirornaments, while the woman peon of that school came in her routine saree andblouse. All the teachers asked her, did not you perform the Vat Savitri Vrat sothat you will get the same husband for seven births? We have performed thatPooja this morning. The modest lady replied...I am fed up with him in this birth itself and I wantto get rid of him right now if my in-laws and parents allow me to do so. But, she said, I have some doubts about this Vrat, will you please clarifythose. Go ahead, all the women teachers said. Well plase tell me, whether your husband is older than you, or of the same ageor smaller than you? All of the women teachers replied...he is older then us ..some said, he is olderby 12 years. Well is he more educated than you, or have the same level of education or he isless educated than you... All of the women teachers replied....He is more educated than us. Now all of you, just think for a minute...If you want the same husband in thenext birth...older by ten years and more educated...then he should die 10 or 12years before you...is that right? Logically yes, said the women teachers... Then my conclusion is...you are performing this Vrat so that your husband shoulddie before you and you should live a life of a widow for 10 years....Is that okfor you all? All the teachers did not say a word...and appreciated the wisdom of the womanpeon... Moral of the story.....come out of the male dominated Society of ours.. In this respect, I appreciate the attitude of Western Women..If they do not gowell with their husbands..they just get seperated and prefer to live as singlemothers and bring up their kids with all the parental love and care. Our womenshould learn a lesson from this... ....Gee Waman--------- First and foremost is equanimity, not being affected by all ins and outs and being Gods only.I myself serve others doing Gods Will and also take care of His Temple. If there are those who do harm, if detached, if having equanimity how can one be affected? We do what we are supposed to do doing Gods Work peaceably despite all ins and outs, when we have loss of electricity for several weeks and then when electricity is back on how much we appreciate having this after losing it. If life is simple and uncomplicated my sister how can we be true servants to God if life is all ease? We go through testing but at times we can be examples by our own exemplary conduct that we do because we are to do not to be boastful that we are any better than anyone else.Yes I have been yelled at and use that time to maintain equanimity, to meditate and pray, when faced with hatred of others I pray remaining with equanimity although sometimes becoming effected and with tears but still we must keep up what is our aim which is our love unconditional for God who made us who is Vasudev Sarvam catherine andersen -ShreeHari- Dear Sister Mahalakshmi Ji, I noticed the moderator has placed the post of mine you queried at the top ofPRIOR POSTING, so as you can see I was musing upon why do good folk turn todrink etc.? Now I never wish to offend, (unfortunately I have! Due to my own lackabilities). Thus I can be a little inscrutable when dealing with people ingeneral. I think I spotted something in your previous post, sometimes we all 'cannot seethe wood for the trees', but you ask me, am I not your brother? Yes I am indeed! As a brother I looked at you statement regarding,"those who have strongrelationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for myRamachandra.." My ultimate response to that was:The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth. I would like to tell you a true story that happened to me:One night a couple years ago, I received a phone call from an old colleague from2000 miles away.He ask me if I could get some oil from the 'Weeping Maddona' for a dying man, asI lived in the town where the church was in which the statue resided.He understood that I did not approve of such things as idols and such, but alsoknew I would help.I rang up the priest, there and then,(I had no idea where the church was), weagreed to meet next morning, this rather sweet old priest led me to thepresbytery, to where she was held each night, one could see the circle of oilwhere she had stood, (she was in the church where pilgrims could view her), hethus scooped up some oil on a couple of cotton buds and put them in a polythenebag, (very fragrant).I was driving to my house, when out of curiosity I sniffed the oil, thestrangest thing happened, from my heart I felt the softest warmest sweetestfeeling radiating. A vibration of pure love. What a surprise to this hard nosedsceptic.By the way I now have a small statue of Quan Yin in the lounge representing theuniversal Goddess of Mercy and compassion.Do you understand that something I spotted sister? With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ---- Narain ! Narain!! Here I am, Divine Sadhaks to receive God's grace and impart too ! What a forum this is ! All sadhaks deserve grace of My Narain !! My time has come now! Narain ! Narain !! Devi Mahalaxmiji , you have certainly mis read Mike Keenor. No where from his message referred by you, a negativity towards you or towards your Ramchandra can be seen by an impartial eye. Hence you may focus yourself with positive attitude more on correcting your inner bhavas. Time has come for you to think impartially. Age is running away. A lot of work is to be done. Start seeing Narain in everyone. No body is bad in this universe. How can there be any in the Creation made by All Merciful, All Powerful, All Knowing Narain ? Narain ! Narain!! Devi Nandaji ! Your concerns are really deep and are truthful. It is generally seen that there is a tendency in male to dominate females. This topic , in fact, needs to be analysed in more detail by Sadhaks here. There is a truth DEFINITELY in what you have stated. But the reasons, may be many. In order to correctly analyse , you have to go deep into many aspects e g Narains' creation, nature of a female, precedences following from Sanatan dharma, upbringings, insistences by females to acquire equality, gunas of females vis a vis males, natural tendencies in nature (prakrati) and Purusha, division of dharmas between the two, and ease of paths as compared with the other as per Naraina's creation in God Realisation etc etc. It should be understood that there are certain divisions which are made by Naraina Himself from Day 1 in His Divine Leela. Any modification thereof is bound to cause agitation in system. Hence an indepth deliberation by Sadhaks of this divine forum WITHOUT LIKINGS OR DISLIKINGS , and an enthusiastic participation by all with samata only can bring out "nectar" out of this SAMUNDRA MANTHAN. I dont agree with Arya Narinder that enough is enough. If any topic needs analysis, it is this ! Narain ! Narain !! As regards Alcohal consumption, least said the better. It is one of MAHA PAPAS. ( Greatest Sins). But again you should go deep into it. First intellect gets bad and then one consumes Alcohal or when one consumes Alcohal then intellect goes bad !!! Narain ! Narain !! Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharshi---------Hari Om Nandaji, that man may have a University degree but he sure sounds like an oxymoron without the oxy. Education is not the criteria for abuse - many men and women who have or do not have Degrees are abusers. Ego and inferiority and superiority complexes on both sides are the key reasons. I implore the abused to get away from such an environment. Bhagavan does not want us to suffer so staying in an abused environment and accepting abuse is wrong! He does not want us to torture ourselves and live in misery and victimhood. Never! Bhagavan Shri Krishna warns us about this in Chapter 17 Verse 5.Those who undergo severe austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride, egoism, lust and attachment, who are impelled by passion and who torture their bodily organs as well as the Supersoul dwelling within are to be known as demons. Don't let an abuser intimidate us or our life. Take solace from Bhagavan as He tells us in Chapter 12 Verse 13 and 14. One who is not envious but who is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor, who is free from false ego and equal both in happiness and distress, who is always satisfied and engaged in devotional service with determination and whose mind and intelligence are in agreement with Me--he is very dear to Me. We should not be baffled but we should seek answers from Gita which Bhagavan Shri Krishna gave to us. Let us also seek answers from ourselves. We must lose ego and seriously consider whether we are at fault also and what we can do to improve the situation. But, firstly, we MUST escape abusive environments! May Bhagavan Bless us all! Krishna S Narinedath - Dear Vyas jee, narinder knowledge flows from an inner Silence ....................... as narinder becomes aware of the words that have flowed from the Eternal Source, from the Knowers of Truth, from Krishna , to become scriptures, the words lead the mind back to the source ..... Silence......... and, there is Joy of Understanding and a feeling of Love , One-ness ; Joy and Love that have no cause, no reason .................... that source , that silence, can not express itself as the One side of the coin............... whenever there is expression, it occurs along with its exact opposite .... and both negate each other to merge and be the Silence they are .............. That is why Buddha says, " the only True answer is ... " Yes, No, both and neither ! " narinder knows not much ...........................and is content with what Silence makes him available.. Doing and knowing were felt as burdens for so many lifetimes ............. and now, in the Silence of 'this moment now ', narinder seems to be free of the burden ! Knowing and Doing happen .......... they are not Knowing and Doing any more ........ each person has to create his own Path to the Self........ with the Self , the Light of lights, guiding each person with Love and Compassion...and, that, sir, is the Beauty of Bhagvada geetha ! Bhagvada Geetha , the Song Celestial , bears witness to the thoughts that arise , when one is silent Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. what wonderfully true words Vyas jee .................the words ' dive-in ' . dive into the Ocean, rather than keep skimming on the Surface , ..... however deep we dive-in ; yet, we do become aware of the un-knowable depth of the ocean , and that the wave is not other than the Ocean ! The self in me is the self in all ! This skimming is the love of words, and is a trap; and, the only process to go beyond the words is ... Meditation, Silence, Samadhi , diving into the Ocean ................... so the Knowers of Truth have averred .............. Ah, how to sing the praises of Meditation as the way ......where as Chapters 6,7 and 9 give some effective techniques of meditation, , almost every chapter of the Bh. Gt has reference to Meditation ................. there are shalokas and shalokas extolling Meditation , or giving tips to aid Meditation ! As regards , ' too many words' we tend to become prisoners of words : words can either become bridges to the self, or lead us astray into concepts and conditionings of the Mind. It is these concepts and conditionings that eclipse the ever -present Light in the individual. Narinder's guru often advised narinder that there was a Time to assimilate the words ............. and then have a break from the words .............. time to reflect, and test the wisdom of the words in one's own conduct . Narinder found this advice very useful. It enabled narinder to move deeper into Meditation fairly quickly. thank you for helping narinder to clear any ambiguity in his expression ........ Vyas jee ........... what more to say Vyas jeeo ........ and how, pray ? thank you for your words, Vyas jee. With respectful one-ness, Jai Jai Krishna, Vyas jee and other sadhakas true.......... AUM narinder---------- Pranaam Mike Ji, I joined a group to address Alcohol Abuse as there was no Hindu in the group and one thing I learnt is that Alcohol is addictive and once it gets into your system you will do anything to get it. Alcohol was not allowed in our home, its effect affected everyone as ppl close to our family had alcohol abuse problems. Those men that abuse their wives and children because of liquor is an effect of the liquor taking over their brain/mind. That is one of the effects of alcohol abuse. There are men who are not alcoholics, have no substance abuse, have University degrees, are very knowledgeable about Scriptures esp. Bhagwad Gita and they abuse there wives. To preach Bhagwad Gita and be abusive to your wife(a lady) is like an oxymoron. This is something that baffles me. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)Dandava pranams.... I would like to ask a question of Mike......I have looked for 1/2 an hour for a posting he wrote on this topic, but I can't find it. I recall him writing to the extent of "I should pray for Ramachandra for Mahalaksmi?" So, I am asking, Mike, you are my brother, are you not? Do you have a problem praying for your sister's advancement in life? Certainly, I hope that all will pray for me as well, as I am continually sunk in the abyss of self pity and deception.....but your letter certainly stuck me as suggesting that you thought my request was inappropriate. Am I correct? Indeed, it may have been more appropriate if I had asked that those williing pray for me as well, I certainly have mounds of ignorance to contend with, so if that was your reminder, much appreciation. Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------- -Shree Hari- This is a direct response to sister Mahalakshmi Dasi with respects to,'My Ramachandra": I read this post several times, and considered why the drunkard? Robert Burns, the great Scottish poet ended up a drunkard, Kahlil Gibran likewise. Why oh why? So often do beautiful souls go on a path of selfdistruction. I think Don McLean's haunting song 'Vincent',(Van Gogh), touched on why.I listened again on U tube, the telling line was; "I could have told you Vincentthat the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you". Vincents solutionwas to shoot himself, and others booze, drugs and so on.The opiates are like a blind between them and the 'Divine Light', they haveturned in the wrong direction, that is because they are full of fear, afraid ofwhat they may find in 'The Light'.I have not mentioned any particular Shloka in Gitaji, but Chapters 14 and 16 arewrapped all around this thread. Finally with regards to this paste:".. and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith thatone day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg thatthose who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan sayprayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weightsthat bind him to passion and ignorance. Please do not put any one on the spot, "I wonder if my relationship to 'BelovedBhagwan', is strong enough to pray for Ramachandra for Mahalakshmi?". The moment I read about 'Your Ramachandra' my prayer was automatic,I do not have a Golden Scale to weigh my worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor---------- Hari Om Narinderji, Gita prescribes/details minimum 25 independent ways of God Realisation. Meditation is one of them and has been stated in the Gita itself to be the most difficult one. Also your comments that Path of Inner Wisdom ( meditation ultimately) as stated in Gita to be better than Path of Action (Karma) is incorrect. Also, it is premature to state "enough said, heard and read" as lot of areas need further clarity for sadhaks and it is through such forums that on e can resolve doubts, decide and settle on a path. Gita is an ocean, Mr Narinder ! Let us learn to dive into it, rather than thinking everything is already learnt -This is worth Meditating on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Hari Om I thank you for this discussion. I was abused. I showed your emails to him. First he got angry and shouted when I show them to him then a few days after I saw him read them. He ask for new ones and I can see change in him.Is short time since this change but it made great difference in my life.Thanks to you everyone. I no longer want to run away and I no longer feel sick. Preeti---------------------------Namaste There would be less problems in our life if we consider Bhagavan Lord Krishna as our guru, counselor, psychologist, and psychiatrist, and regard GEETA as the Handbook of Life, the manual we should refer to in our daily lives. Bhagavan is Everything to us: I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus.The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable. (As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!GEETA 9:16-19 We have agreed never to waste a single moment on anger and arguments because, ultimately, it is waste of our time and energy and life as a human being is too precious to be frittered away on unpleasantness. Both of us do not want to prove to anyone that we know more than them, or that we are the most moral and high-standing religious people. We are blessed to have acquired knowledge so we use that blessing to improve ourselves and help others. To thee, who dost not carp, verily shall I now declare this, the most profound knowledge, united with realisation, having known which, thou shalt be free from evil (Samsâra).GEETA 9:1 All we do and every moment of our lives are an offering to Bhagavan so we try to conduct ourselves in a manner that is befitting to Bhagavan's Gift to us, the Bhagavad Geeta. Whoever with devotion offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, that I acceptâ€"the devout gift of the pure-minded. Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, whatever thou givest away, whatever austerity thou practisest, O son of Kunti, do that as an offering unto Me. GEETA 9:26-27 Both of us have cast away the False Ego to the point where each of us do not want to be right at the expense of anger, abuse, and angst in our lives. We give in to each other so that there is never any heated arguments and debates but since both of us can't be wrong all the time, we seek guidance and advice from GEETA. Instead of dissonance, we have lots of love, romance, satisfaction, and serenity in our lives. We don't depend on anyone, even each other, for happiness and we accept responsibility and admit our errors and try to rectify them. The heaviest burden is lifted off our shoulders and suddenly vanishes when we confess to the the mistakes we make and learn from them. We are human, thus we err, but when we admit and confess, and try our very best not to repeat those errors, life becomes guiltless and we no longer possess the need scapegoat anyone. We deal with unpleasant behavior with exactly the opposite: we smile, we say Please, Thanks, Have a Blessed day, May Bhagavan Bless you, but we do not get into debates and confrontations with loud and rowdy people. When we counteract evil and uncivil behavior with goodness, smiles, and good manners, the others are shocked, almost speechless, when they realize you are being nice to them rather than retaliating. We try to return evil with goodness. How did we develop these habits? Read GEETA, think of Bhagavan Lord Krishna every moment. You can't be evil, nasty, attack others, and unpleasant if you have Bhagavan with you every moment of your existence, 24/7, 365 days per year. You can't abuse anyone when you have GEETA as the manual of life and Bhagavan Lord Krishna as your constant companion. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GEETA 9:34 Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath -------------------------- Dear SaadhikaAbuse by itself is inacceptable. Women strongly resist the fact that they are affected by it. We need to accept first it is happening to me. The abuser already has problem in his/ her behaviour and is execising one's power(physical, position, psychological). Any response with even an element of aggression often aggravates the situation. Reciever becomes more vulnerable...Being recognised as spouse of someone itself is a worldly identity. Veena--------------------------- " It is unclear where this discussion is leading..... .. " ( quote, Moderators )narinder agrees ! What needs to be said has been said ....................... enough said, heard and read ! the moderators have outlined beautifully the wisdom on the subject ............. " Right and Wrong are only thoughts The Immutable Law of Cause and Effect remains sacrosanct ............. become aware of the operation of this Law in your own life , as also in the world around you ...if a person is willing to ' accept' the effect (results) of his action , he/ she may do whatever he considers right .......... BUT imponderable is the nature of Action................... 'even the wise are deluded about the True nature of Action ! '( Bh. Gt. Ch 3, Sh 16) and, ............. in the fast- moving chain of ' Cause and Effect.', how would a person really know what exactly is 'Right Action ' ? how would one be able to catch ' the wisdom of NOW ' in the chain of cause and effect ? the easiest way is to be guided by some ' kasauti' .......... by the wisdom of the scriptures, saints , and the sages....... and this is also BEST in the long run........ The ONLY TRUE Solution is the deeper understanding of Bhagwad Geetha's guidance to move into your own inner wisdom .............. ' Far lower than the Yoga -of-Wisdom is action, O Dhananjaya. Seek thou refuge in wisdom; ........................"( Ch 2, Sh 40) and to move into the Yoga of wisdom, meditation is the Way .............. the only Way......... and it is Karamyoga, which prepares the mind to move into meditation ( Chapter 4).............' all actions culminate in knowledge '( Ch 4, sh 33 ) the sadhakas are advised to seek the 'Knowledge' from the Knowers of Truth .............. by long prostration, by question, , and sewa( service)............ Ch 4, sh 34. ah, what more to add .................. too many words already !!!! AUM, narinder -------------------------- Namaste. I cannot overemphasize the critical necessity for people to get out of an abusive environment. It could be that Karma is the reason, but Karma does not require us to remain frozen and fixed, unwilling to respond, while suffering in an abusiverelationship. The tendency of the abused is to remain and try to resolve the situation but if this fails, then we must face realism and stop others from inflicting abuse on us. Everyday, we read of women, children, and men who are attacked and assaulted while in anabusive environment; this is sufficient cause for us to move away from such an environment. Bhagavan wants us to be alert and act with alacrity in situations where we are in peril, rather than being fatalistic and accepting it as "fate and destiny." Karma does not implyaccepting our station in life and doing nothing about it. We must never allow the abuser to believe we are afraid to end a relationship, or we do not want to leave because of economic circumstances, or we will not end the relationship because we want to 'uphold the reputation' of family and relatives, thus continuing to suffer. Act now, and move on with our lives rather than abused. The message of Bhagavan in Geeta to Arjuna, and all of us, is to develop equanimity and poise, to remain balanced in cases of joy, happiness, and roller-coaster extremes, but never to surrender to abuse and accept pain, agony, and distress. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------------------Hari Om Nandaji has indeed given beautiful points re the ABUSE in marital life. So far I had reflected based on "case for discussion/opinion". I appreciate that does not fully address the ideal conduct, when things are beyond a limit. Sure ! By all means and to the best of my knowledge and belief, and always trying to be equanimous , I shall address, one by one, in detail, the real genuine questions raised by Nandaji , in her capacity as social reformer, well wisher and social worker. I always believe that any Religion ultimately must be practical. If there is mere theory without an adaptability, then that is at the most "idealism" not "religion". Religion ! Sadhana !! They must be practical and be easily adaptible in day to day life. I have experiences behind me supported by impeccable and unfailing Principles of Ideal Conduct. I will love to share them for benefit of all. Sadhaks ! Kindly supplement as much as you can to the views of Nandaji. They reflect a most common and genuine obstacle faced by the best creation of Mother Nature and Father Paramatma - a female ! A creation the "Mother form" of which has been hailed to be equal to the God by all religions and Scriptures across the globe, from time immemorial ! A creation which in all forms has been stated to be 1000 times more superior than the males in many many respects by all Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. A creation which has no parallel when it comes to tolerance- austerity, trust, faith, belief, capacity and single pointed devotion ! A creation which is so unique and essential that without its presence therein , no house can be called a HOME . No male, if he is a gruhustha, can ever become rich in long run, without being respectful to his wife - it is a law. A very creator of all of Jeevas. A very preserver of all Jeevas. A Queen in her own right of every home. A Shakti. A Grihalaxmi. An Annapoorna ! Next best creation in the universe is again feminine only- the Holy Cow . I shall start replying sentence by sentence from next posting onwards. I shall wait for more views for a day. May EQUANIMITY be with me ! Pranaams and with gratitude. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------- Dear sadhaks/ sadhikas , narinder has been reading all the answers in this 'very valid subject', in Today's scenerio (and the related subjects of marital violence, and infidelity,and so on) . He finds the most apt answer ....... for those, who choose to be sadhaks/ sadhikas in Sri Rajneet Singh's thoughts below : "tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his/her own part. If one party does not carry out one's part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his/ her own ? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the spouse becomes exactly what he/ she decries in the other ................ narinder' s only message on all the questions would always be: " Do yourself a favour. To free yourself from all dependency ( objects and relationships), and to get the True Answer to your question from within yourself, become a sincere Sadhaka. Desire to move beyond the limitations of the Mind by going beyond the Mind. Beyond the Words . Take to Meditation. Regular contact with a living Master does wonders . Learn the art of bowing at His feet . aapo deepo bhava ................ be your own Guru( LIGHT )................................... Meditate, Meditate, Meditate............" AUM narinder - My pranaams to all Sadhaks. Mahalakshmi Dasi Ji, My pranaams--at your feet in salute to what you have shared with us,for what you have endured and are enduring. People use ego as an excuse for their cruel and inhumane behaviour towards their victims. What I have seen here is almost the same response and excuses given to Counsellors/Psychologists. What excuse a man has to scream/shout/use profanities at his wife? What does her ego have to do with him doing that? Each of us are responsible for our own behaviour, what comes out of our mouths is our own responsibility. (message shortened - Gita Talk Moderators) My Father and Mother have been role models for me. My father expressed two days before passing away in my Mother's arms that everything he is, is because of my mother. Ego is the factor for men as is the case when they abuse their wives but the ego of the wives do not figure in these cases as part of the abuse is to erase the ego of the wives and beat them down emotionally so they do not even know that they have a choice to leave. My Psychologist say, watch those who are talking about Egos and examine their lives. He says that only when Hindu/Indian men are forced by Law to come and get help do they come to him--under duress and they resist the counselling too. (if needed contact Moderators for email / numbers). I salute Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji for staying in the home--not everyone has the strength to do so. A Sadhak who was abused by her Pati Dev--one she revered as Lord Narayana as Dr Ranjeet Singh said one ought to do. The abuse started from the wedding night, starting with physically forcing himself on her (details excluded), later followed by forcing alcohol and cooking non-vegetarian foods. What excuse can any human being much less a Pati Dev have for doing this --can anyone explain this? Yet he says that his wife has an Ego problem...Mahalaksmi Dasi Ji, I pray that your Ramachandra one day will wake up to the fact that he has a Devi in his life. He must have done very very good karmas in his previous life to have gotten such a Devi as his Patni. I pray that you have the divine happiness that you deserved. Krishna Ji, only in poverty cases do girls get married to get out of that kind of life. Whether the wives are financially dependent or not--this does not protect them from abuse rather--it is one of the reasons for abuse. Lazy husbands marry financially secured women for money and when they do so they abuse them so as to stamp their authority and demean their wives and so the mental and emotional abuse is used as the only means of getting these women to stay with them and support them. As Dr Ranjeet Singh mentioned, we honor our Pati Dev as Bhagwaan--that is why we also do arti and touch their feet. As was said during the Saat Pheres( marriage vows) the husbands are duty bound to take care of their wives and children--that is Sanatana Dharma plain and simple. Not the wives must go out and work just so that in case the husband decide to start abusing she can support herself!!! This is accepting abuse as a way of life. Abuse is not a way of life and to accept it is just adding onto the misery of future generations. Rather than tell my daughter to go make sure that you are qualifed and can support yourself in case your husband abuses you--is it not better to say--do that and stay single so that you won't have the grief of enduring abuse at the hands of the man who promised to love, support and protect you? This lady whose husband abused her did not want her only child to marry any Hindu man--. Just before I end this lengthy post--I want to draw attention to something happening in the US. Bill Cosby and some other very famous African American men started a campaign to go out into communities and talk to African American men. They literally are telling them that their behaviour is responsible for the breakdown within their communities etc. My prayer is that one day we have Hindu groups led by Hindu men who will speak up vehemently about abusive behaviour. And I do not mean like some of those leaders today who are abusive in their own lives and still telling others that abuse is bad--I mean genuine people whose lives at home is Satsangha and is teaching others by their living examples how to have that kind of life in their own homes. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)------------------------Hari Om This refers to message of Dr Ranjeet Singh. While he has echoed how a sadhak should be, but I don't think that a female should take "abuse" ( raising the hand agst female, utter continuous disrespect/harrassment to her, cruelty, haunting her etc) in any case. She can without leaving the home, if in-laws/husband are unbearably harassing her, she can seek external help. I am myself in favour of an austerity, but not in favour of cruelty. There is no doubt that there has to be a "line of demarcation". There is a difference between "testing/difficult circumstances" and "impossible circumstances" (abuse). Cruelty, physical beating etc are "abuse" Moreover, "pativrata" dharma does not get vitiated by seeking external help. "Pativrata" dharma is a "bhava" (inner sentiment). If some one has become sick, putting him in hospital is not wrong. If she is pativrata, and hubby is very cruel and she seeks external help to save herself- she continues to be "pativrata" ! As regards sentiments: Alas wives don't consider hubbies to be God, it is an easy and ideal solution, sure but in the present times it is becoming rarer and rarer. There are many reasons for the same, not all are exclusively dependent upon wife. I don't say it is not ideal or very difficult, I say there are SOME subtle things of Law of Karma also preventing it/playing role in it . Lady following "Pativrata" dharma and her husband generally were husband and wife only in the prior life too. Their relationship is continuous journey, taking peak shape in present birth. It is an austerity of an extra ordinary nature for wife. Her prior life "sanskars" , present life education , contractual obligations of prior life, also play some roles. It is a topic of detail. I also believe that most of the newly wed wives , if not all, enter hubby's house with an intention of becoming "pativrata" . I don't believe any wife is "non pativrata" in the beginning itself. Sentiment changes later, due to variety of reasons. She has many options of God Realisation and has a freedom to choose one . Pativrata Dharma is one of them only. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sophiaji has some valid and practical concerns on using some abusive situations towards sadhana. The way I see is Gita gives some vision here to handle it. One uses Love, Compassion, Conscience, benefit of doubt to other party, advice of elder(s) one trusts, and all such resources as much as possible along with heartful prayers to God to help avoid extreme actions. This is just what Pandavas did with the help of Krishna to avoid war, an extreme action, by agreeing to minimums. Finally war was unavoidable as Krishna felt the abusive situation and we know the rest of the story. Such abusive cases should be dealt in the spirit of Gita, including the option open for any extreme action but with the courage to step out even when it is more difficult to do it for women in some societies.If one Trusts oneself having given a fair try, God steps in and opens the Gateless Gate of Promised Land, no doubt about it!On Karma's role in one's life: I don't see Karma theory relevant for one who clearly sees that he/she is not an individual person, but is Consciousness Impersonal, playing the role of an apprent person. As the person goes out, so does the karmas of that person, both due to ignorance. However, from another stand point, karmas may be used to say to oneself, "ok, so it is my karmas that I suffer, let me stop here and find a way out" and proceed to actions, instead of dwelling on it. When another person is seemingly suffering say to oneself, "ok, it is my karmas to help this person, I don't care what his/her are", and then proceed to help. This is Karmas theory put in practice, and to be free ultimately. Karmas are never personal, only collective karmas, as imprints of unfulfilled desires, cruelties of extremsits, compasionate actions of saints and sages, all left on the human Consciousness from the beginning of mankind. This forms the universal subtle body of mass karmas from which each one in future generations attracts/repels/adds and subsequently thinks these are "my karmas" and get bound. If Karmas were real, none can escape from their reality, since we can be free from them, they have to be ignorance! Only false taken real creates suffering, Real cannot!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt Hari Om: I agree with Vyas ji and Vandana ji that many of these family and spousal spats are the results of ego clashes; ego and 'I-ness' are the main causes for most of the problems in the world. Bhagavan warns us about this:Possessed of egoism, power, insolence, lust and wrath, these malignant people hate Me (the Self within) in their own bodies and those of others. Gita 17:18 Vandana ji raises a very important point regarding action and reaction when both spouses engage in retaliatory abuse, insults, and hostile behavior. A common situation I have come across many times is that both spouses abuse or think they abuse each other. One spouse would complain that he/she is being abused and the other would say no, he/she is being abused by the other, and both would vehemently deny they have abused each other ! It is as if there is an intense competition to be the winner who has suffered the most amount of abuse. Usually, in such cases there are other major hidden issues that are not being brought to the fore while both spouses abuse each other. There is an aspect of abuse that should be noted by spouses, parents, relatives and friends:3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%. People should not stay in an abusive situation. This is where parents, relatives, and friends should intervene and rescue the abuser. Also, there are private and State organizations that could help, and if in physical danger, the Police should be called in. There must be no excuse for not helping an abused person. We know the hesitation of the abuser not to leave so we should take action to help the abused. The other point is the standard of living: spouses and parents should encourage their children to be independent of anyone; get the education and skills so that you will not depend on anyone. Dependency is the major issue on abuse and family problem situations as most people remain because they have no choice. Not just dependency in financial terms, but they must develop the confidence, self-esteem, psyche, and street-smarts to survive and proper in this world without depending on anyone. How to do this? Glad you ask - Gita, spend a few minutes per day on Gita and you will find all the answers.We must encourage children so that they will develop themselves to the point where there will not be a dependency problem and they will not have to suffer in an unpleasant and uncomfortable marriage. I would like to get the contact info of organizations in the Unites States and Canada that are actively helping immigrants in abuse situations. There are many who need help and these organizations can play a crucial role. I recommend to all the erudite and learned messages from Vyas ji, from whom have learnt so much. Ego, dear Ego, as Vyas ji puts it so beautifully. So many problems can be solved if ego is removed. All over Gita we are urged to get rid of the ego, bitterness, anger, envy, and conceit that stands between us and Divinity. That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. Gita 2:71 The Gunas of Prakriti perform all action. With the understanding deluded by egoism, man thinks, "I am the doer." Gita 3:27 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. Gita 12:13-15 Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedath----- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I have nothing to say on the subject as many learned sadhakas have expressed very beautifully. I am deeply touched by the message of Vandanaji acknowledging she has benefited much by Brother Vyasji's advice. If one of us derives such benefit as Vandanaji has, the forum has served us well, although I am sure many of us are learning a lot by sharing wisdom on this plateform. I thank you!Abuse in any relationship, it is never appropriate to accept it. However, how to handle it needs to be guided by wisdom. Many valid issues of contemprary nature have been raised here regarding leaving or not leaving such relationship.My take is that when we live truthfully all our life, we will be guided by wisdom when we are in such dire situations. I trust this promise of the Divine! This is why, I know, Arjuna fought the war of just cause even when it involved killings! This is why Krishna, as powerful God as He was, ran away from fight with(name I forgot), because it was appropriate then.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-------- Our respects to all Gita-Sadhakas, Shri Nanda jee wrote: We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. In our opinion, Shri Bhagawan did not tell the above to Arjuna for the reason that to fight was his Dharma, his sva-dharma; not the above. That is why He had told him: atha chet-tvam-imam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi/ tatah sva-dharmam keertim ch hitvaa paapam-avaapsyasi// (If thou wouldst not fight this lawful battle, this dharmyam sangraamam, then by abandoning thine own duty and fame, thou shalt incur sin.) 2:33. He had also told him: hato vaa praapsyasi svargam, jitvaa vaa bhokshyase maheem/ tasmaad uttishttha kaunteya yudhaaya krit nishchayah// (If killed, thou wilt reach heavens; if victorious, wilt enjoy earth. Therefore, O son of Kunti, arise, resolved to fight.) 2:37. In our humble opinion, tit-for-tat is not the way of a Sadhak. In Grihastha Ashram, each one has to follow one's own Dharma. If there is pati-Dharma, there is also patni-Dharma. Each one has to carry out his part. If one party does not carry out his part, how does it become proper for the other to forsake his? If one of them is not Dharmic, or is of a demoniac disposition (asurik sampattee), how would it be said to be proper that the patni also became the like of him? The respected lady says, she is a sadhikaa. Would she remain that if she acted like that? What would happen to her sadhna then? Would it be there? Didn't Shri Bhagawan also tell: karmanya-eva-adhikaaras-te maa phaleshu kadaachana? (2:47) As a Geeta Sadhikaa, why should she want that she reciprocate only if he also carried out his dharmas? In our humble opinion, her right is only to perform HER part of duties ( karmanya eva adhikaarah) without basing them on the ways, behaviours and actions of the husband. A sadhak has to accept adverse circumstances as well as part of his or her sadhana -- and as important ones. Tit-for-tat is not their way, for it is bound to bring about their fall. Then there was this piece from Shashikala jee also: "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We are afraid this too is not the way of the Hindu ladies. This is not the way our pativratas behave. No doubt, she is the grahini; but her Dharma does not say that she should call police or make her husband, a Vishnu Bhagawan to her, leave the house. Whose grahini would she be in that case? She is the patni only because he is the pati. Would a crore-pati be describable as a crore-pati if there was not the crore or the crores? These sort of sentiments reflect that the lady is not a dutiful wife. The very act of being a wife is a great sadhana in itself: and a lady's only and main sadhana. It is for this reason that she has been said to be a sadhikaa all her life. Also, that is why the Scriptures have said: By service to her swami she achieves everything -- even gets released from the bondage of birth and death. But, by acting on the above advice, would she be released or get bound up further by the steel like shackles of adharma? Would she be a dutiful wife or an undutiful one, then? The above sentiments clearly show that she was basing her acts on the instincts and is not seeing Bhagawan Vishnu in him. We talk of Vasudeva Sarvam Idam. Don't we? But, alas, cannot see Bhagawan in the husband! The very person whose ardhaangini she was -- the person to whom she was given over with the uttering of the words: Vishnu roopaay varaay, at the time of the vivah! With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh --------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.... Many thanks to Nanda for continueing to shed light on this topic in a realistic way! I was so bold as to start this topic, but still it is very difficult to say much. Through the years, I have been always fearful that perhaps I talk to much about my personal life, and then regret.....but let me say, certainly, it is a relief to hear both sides, both the "right-wrong" conservatirve side, expressed very sweetly and sincerely by Vyasa, and then the "left-wing" viewpoint..... Without giving too much detail of my life, presently I am a care giver of 84 yr. old mataji, without any family and my husband who in past has had past history of abusive tendency, drinking and drug use including court order and restraint. I learned that it is often very difficult to prosecute domestic violence cases, because although the woman is abused, even physically, after its all over, and the emotional drama subsides, the facts are still there that "this is the man/woman I care about most in my life". From an incident 4 years ago, he was made to enrolled in the batterers intervention program by the courts.....which can start the process of personal growth. Without a man (or woman) looking at the fact that they NEED to change, abuse doesn't stop. And in the cases such as the one I experienced, accidental death CAN and often DOES occur... as I have personally experienced physical violence that could be life threatening. the point is that when anyone gives up their integrity and turns toward substance abuse, and fighting starts, it is scary. It is dangerous. And if a woman treasures her relationship with the Lord, her opportunity in this life to serve others, including her children, family members, or society at large, or, if she is spiritually powerful and treasurers her opportunity to have a loving exchange with the Lord in the Heart, she doesn't need either of those loving, service exchanges to be constantly frought with abuse and disfunction. But that is NOT, and I repeat, NOT saying, get a divorse, give up on the man, find another....;.that is not appropriate. What I AM saying is that to know, there should be boundaries, and I sympathise tremendously that those boundaries are often very difficult for the woman to draw. But, if the police are drawn in, and court ordered programs mandated, that is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing. It may appear to be on one level, but many men will not accept help any other way. Which is extremely unfortunate. In the days we live in, where alcohol is legal, although it kills more people than any other drug, and where stress levels are extremely high, it is of utmost importance for women to know that abuse is a real thing, and it affects the lives of children dramatically. I do not want to discuss here how it has affected my six children.....I cannot change the past. I can say, regardless, they all love their father, are happy whenever they know we are continueing to try to work things out, and I am grateful that I have had the strength to continue having faith that one day he will change, and give up drugs and alcohol.....I also humbly beg that those who have strong relationship with the lotus feet of Sri Bhagavan say prayers for my Ramachandra......kindly ask that he may rise above the weights that bind him to passion and ignorance. I am also making a statement in this posting......that abuse by a man (or a woman, in some cases) is real, it is scary, and it is a crime. Generally, it is very difficult to deal with it alone.....if women don't have close family/friends to give them support, they need to find some. There are meetings called Al Anon specifically designed for the spouses of alcoholics and addicts, specifically to give support and strength to people that need some strength, some where to talk, to let losse their inner frustrations about dealing with abusive relationships. I will say this, though....there are very few Indian ladies at these meetings. Perhaps that says they prefer to turn to the Lord in their heart for their strength.....that is also such a glorious, glorious thing. (When I took the course on domestic violence, the facilitators had an American Indian man come in and speak to the class.....he mentioned that when the American Indian woman goes into a shelter because of abuse, they very, very rarely talk....within their tribes, this is considered to be a great strength, for the women to be able to be silent. The man explained that this was part of their culture.......it takes deep, deep thought for some people, including myself, to grasp the depth of those words.....but I must say, I honor, respect, and offer praise to those women who do tolerate in silence.....may the Lord always protect you from harm)You may contact the facilitators of this forum if any lady wants to speak about abuse in private with me and needs some guidance. Praying that my words may be helpful,Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING My pranaams to everyone here. Again I thank everyone for their input into this discussion.I mentioned my interest in this topic because for most Hindus abuse is something that is not talked out/acknowledged publicly and in many cases the victims are chastised for admitting that they are abused. Vyas Ji, abuse is not hitting alone, as mental,emotional and verbal abuse is equally and even worse in some cases.You have given your viewpoint based on what is said here but you do not allow too much details hence the reluctance to explain more. You mentioned about wives sitting down in front of Murti whole day and that is the scenario you are dealing with--there are very very few ppl who will sit in front of a Murti just for a few hours daily. The scenario I am dealing with is when ppl cannot do their daily sadhana --ie just sit,pray and meditate for a few minutes. No matter what, no one has the right to interfere with someone else relationship with God and we see what happened to Meerabai--she was poisoned, she was abused and she had to run away.One wife had to completely cease all forms of Sadhana merely because he verbally abused her when she did. And this very same man who abused his wife because she was a devotee of God goes around preaching about the importance of Sadhana and devotion to Lord Krsna. A counsellor explained this behaviour that this man know he is abusive/has an abusive personality but is existing in a fantasy world where is he is this good devotee of God because he is now following Verse30 Chapter 9. He ignores where Bhagwaan stated that when one comes to Him--soon he becomes one of Righteousness--Verse 31.And when one become righteous--you do not harm another and to those that you have harmed before you went to God---you go about doing praschitta. This can be explained later as this is getting lengthy. The situation Vyas Ji is that 1.Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviours in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another.2.One of the most commonly asked questions regarding domestic violence is “Why do women stay in abusive relationships? It may be more appropriate, however, to examine the question - Why do men abuse the people they say they love?3.Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Often people say if my partner laid a hand on me I would be out the door, but imagine for a minute , your own family. Would you really be able to walk out the door ? Could you leave your home your neighbourhood, your friends. Where would you go ? Victims do not leave for a number of reasons which include:Fear of Partner's Action: People who leave their batterers are at 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. There are also threats of hurting family members, the children and/or threats of suicide.Effects of Abuse: Depression, feeling of immobility, the belief of having no options or choices.Isolation: Many victims of domestic violence lose their support system because their batterer has isolated them from family and friends.Economic Dependency: In the first year after a divorce, a woman's standard of living drops by 73% while a man's improves by an average of 42%.Leaving is a processWhen friends, family members, helping agencies such as, police, shelters clergy, courts, medical personal, therapists and educators lend substantial and concerted efforts to assist victims of domestic violence in the leaving process, they are more likely to leave. Therefore, when they stay, we as a community should look to see what we are doing to hinder the leaving process and then make changes to facilitate the leaving and ultimate safety. COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS1. He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.2.He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments. 3.Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates. 4.His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him. He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him. 5.Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend. 6.He has low self-esteem. 7.He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise. He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite. He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations. 8.He has a great capacity for self-deception. He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner. He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much. He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do. He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him. Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through. He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him. 9.He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel. He is selfish or generous depending on his mood. 10. A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing: a con man. 11.The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when he's angry. He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.Many have felt that one should not get involved in a private family matter or that the violence can’t really be that bad, she must be doing something to provoke the violence, I know him- I really don't think he could hurt anyone..Domestic violence is not a family matter. It is a crime with serious repercussions for your friend, her children, and the entire community. A victim of battering is never to blame for another person's choice to use violence against her and many abusers are not violent in other relationships and can even be charming in social situations. Vyas Ji, the above is what we have to think about when we deal with partner abuse and it would be just wonderful to hear your views as regards to dealing with the abusers as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita and how to deal with victims as per Dharma/Bhagwad Gita. Regards, Nanda TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----------- Jai shree Krishna I agree with Vyas Ji that first of all this must be thought whether it is clash of Ego / the husband is really abuser. Abuse is a big word and should not be used for clash of egos between couples. I also used to get troubled by my husband's behaviour for he also has a very loose tongue and has negative thinking. But after reading Vyasji's view on these issues ( Wives miseries have been discussed here earlier also ) my attitude has changed a lot. Earlier I always used to get very depressed and hurt by my husband behaviour and always used to think that he is a highly negative person. Reading Vyasji views made me think if i have 50 complaints from my husband he also has same number of complaints from me. so for him , am i the abuser. Earlier i used to say God Help me. Now I pray God help my Husband and if you have given me a difficult husband you have to teach me ways of handling him. Now I don't think about my hurt when he says hurting remarks or does hurting things i think that he must also be hurt somewhere or must be having some problems that is why he is speaking this way. I wont say All my problems are solved or there is complete harmony between me and my husband but there certainly is a positive change in attitude (I hope it continues and God gives me right guidance ) . I also think about my husbands positive traits and the comforts/ benefits that i have because of him. So it is my request to all ladies to think objectively keeping your hurt/desires/wishes aside whether the hubby is really abuser . If that really is the case then ABUSE is certainly not acceptable. Thank you Vyas Ji for showing me the Way. Vandana------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks,Meera` s husband never respected her divine life and `often abused her very badly. People around thought she is mad, which normally happens to any saintly person. She was given poison so that family reputation not lost. The poison Sri Krishna consumed and Meera was on her way of left leaving them. Sri Krishna is example as how to respect woman. HE was blamed and abused by Sathyabama. How nice HE reciprocated. Her Ego ended when Hanuman's war with Sri Krishna took place. Woman are to be very well respected, as we call Ganga as Matha Ganga, Earth as Bhoomi Matha Etc.Mandodhari wife of Ravana and Tara wife of Vaali gave their advises as Sri Rama is NOT an ordinary human. Ravana & Vaali died disrespecting their advise. In fact one can read the praises on Sri Rama by Mandhodhari and Tara.Spouse is obstruction for leading Divine life, has to be changed automatically by Namasankeethan in mind.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------Pranam bhakti and mokshahari bol It is not possible that Gita codones in any form the taking of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.Familial abuse has far reaching generational consequences. The battered woman begins to identify with the abuser. It is very serious. the children become abusers or victims. and perpetuate in some form this cycle. One must have a serious perspective on this and all resources made available to these women or children to help them.if one simply states it is their karma and does nothing to help them that is most spiritually agregious and a mentality of delusion and arrogance.and i speak out of experience as a long time abuse survivor.the woman that posed the query is reaching out for help.she should be helpedSophia -------------- Hari Om I am in agreement with Miraji Dass, and Shashikalaji in toto, and with views of Sophiaji , Mike Keenor and Nandaji so long as circumstances are ABUSIVE. Abuse does not include clash of ego. "Abuse" is also different than `adversity' or "tough circumstances". The question of "accepting" abuse does not arise. I wrote in the first posting itself that acceptance of any abuse is "cowardice". I have no doubts on that. But, in the Questions/ hypothetical examples given for discussion and addressed by me, what was told time and again was "abuse … abuse" but in reality it was " CLASH OF EGO", unreasonable insistence over the other soul of one's views , and it was an erroneous and correctible view as to what is "sadhana" . Sadhana – Yes ! Austerity is sadhana. Every tolerance of adversity is an "austerity" as per Swamiji, Scriptures and Holy Gita. Tolerance has to be inculcated in a Sadhak. I addressed the Q only as a Sadhak. Issues there in the example case for discussion, were prominently that husband seeks more time and attention and does not like wife not paying attention to him too busy in "sadhana" , and when getting angry losing control over his tongue.. The discussion was in continuance of an earlier Q of Komalji on similar subject. I had myself qualified my views by stating that I don't presume that circumstances are TOO BAD, making living under one roof very difficult and making one perform his/her duty an impossibility. Sadhaks may re-read my messages. I also stated that I will address "extreme cases like wife beating etc" separately. To my mind , if the given case/ hypothetical example as presented is taken as ABUSE by wife, then hubby too will be fully justified in claiming himself to be abused. Because wife here expected hubby to get spiritual, do as what she expects him to do,and to let her do what she considers appropriate. There was an intense desire seen for `changing' the husband to fall in line with her views and ways or attitudes. Hubby gets angry and that is ABUSE for wife. But hubby too can claim that I expected wife to get dutiful, do as what I expect her to do, devote more time and attention to me/ home/kids rather than sitting before idol, she is not listening to me and not giving me that which a hubby expects from a wife in normal circumstances ( this Q was in continuation of Komalji's Q) ,and thus is not performing her duties vis a vis me and hence I am abused. Moreover, the basic Q of Mahalaxmi Dasi was to seek "line of demarcation" , meaning is it abuse or not or when fights in marital life should be taken as "abuse" . The caption to the Q also suggested that. I said in the first posting itself – when beating is prevalent or when there is a difficulty in performance of duties , then that is line of demarcation.. For God's sake, therefore, my views may kindly be not taken as tilted towards "males" and "anti females". KINDLY. Mine were innocent expressions as a Sadhak, on what is sadhana, how sorrows can be handled in life, how the world is basically made by God, and how one is independent in sadhana. Being a Sadhak, this distinction of male and female never crossed my mind. I have not got any opportunity so far of expressing on rude and heartless conduct of males towards wives. May be if any appropriate Q is raised, I may reflect upon the same. But, I must say "Abuse" ( as understood in common parlance and as seen by Counsellors and handled by associations like the one with Nandaji is associated , essentially a threat to society, future generations , children, family members etc) is totally a different thing than what was presented here. Hope this clarifies. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is - "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA". Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly. When VASUDEV (God) comes in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police. We cannot let him simply rob us. But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play). Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act. One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged. As pointed out in a sadhak message "DEPENDENCY" is problematic. Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God . This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them. Hope this helps! Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- Jai Hanuman It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents. Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home. I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy. These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more. If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !! Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ---------- MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic ofabuse.But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequencesfor the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse oremotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselvesof their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is onething. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF theperson being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resourcesmust be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental isa killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now itake care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damagedfrom this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of theabuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just saywell its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the conceptof karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany amother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take thisjewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes thedecision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she isterrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands oftheir husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself ofthem. being a battered mother helps not you or your children Sophia ----------Pranaam. I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious. We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive. The details are not being included here .... but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations.... We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ----- Hari Om Q It is the most terrible thing to hear your spouse insulting you because you are praying too much, praying too long, being too devoted to God etc. A. Why it is terrible? You can remain always unaffected from his conduct. As Miraji Dass so beautifully stated , husband can not reach you(self). . Is it not possible that hubby is simply seeking more time and attention ? When better half resists, the beast in hubby comes out and not so uncommon "clash of ego" takes place ! In clash of ego, hubby is more likely to emerge victorious. There are certain virtues in hubbies also given directly by that God who gave wives also some specific strengths. On ego front , a hubby has far better chances of emerging victorious. We may discuss topic separately if desired. Now this is the problem. Q We are taught in Sanatana Dharma that as women we must stick with our husbands especially when you get married according to Hindu ceremony. What happens when there is abuse? A. Teachings of Sanatan Dharma are eternal truths. By a real sadhak, the abuse is considered to be an "austerity" being performed by you. (Refer definition of austerity in Shrimad Bhagavatam). That forbearance, that tolerance in fact is real sadhana. Real sadhana CAN NOT be done by use of body/mind/intellect or time. It is done by "becoming of God" . It is done by "changing" your "self" from being worldly to being divine.. Sadhana is always of a 100 percent duration. You remain sadhak 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. It can't be done by using body. You "become" of God- by accepting firmly - Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi. Where is then any obstacle to sadhana ? Give all the time to hubby/home, if that is what he wants. Put entire time/mind/body/ego/intellect into the service of world. There is no use of them in sadhana. Renounce them, in favour of hubby, home and children- as Shashikalaji or Sadhanaji Karigar or Miraji and many others said. Thus gets solved yours as well as your hubby's problems- if they are the only problems (your giving unusually long time for prayers/devotion/worship etc.- no body remembered kids, home, - ok ) Advice of Shashikalaji to you is right. But you will have to throw ego away. Dear Dear ego ! Come back if you have any problems in implementation. Q Why would anyone allow themselves to be abusive? A. "Prakratim yaanti bhutani , nigrahah kim karishyati ?". (BG 3:33) . I wonder with insistence or arrogance any one will ever be able to control attitude of other. May be because he is living in darkness. May be because he is stupid. May be because he is sinning as a habit. May be that he becomes helpless before his own "svabhav" and "gunas/prakruti" . May be he wants your time and attention more than anything else. Whatever be the case, how does that matter to you ? He is not "yours". Yours is "Girdhar Gopal" ! You are not sinning, unless you don't perform your duties to him or towards home or towards kids.. But in any case for you he is a purifier. He is definitely helping you in breaking your "affinity" with this world. He is helping you in destruction of your "me" (ego) and "mine". (mamata). He is undoubtedly taking you closer to God. He is helping you in becoming "desireless", "egoless" and "mamataless". He is making you fall squarely within the purview of BG 2:71 (and many many such verses). He is redeeming your debts. By sinning himself, but he is freeing you of your sins. Thus, he deserves a gratitude and compassion from you. For you he is performing divine task- however he may be. Nandaji ! Precisely for this reason I made that so called "profound statement " which you referred in your message to this esteemed GT Group. Thanks ! Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Namaste. Vyas ji summarised the topic beautifully in the previous message. "You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as you leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. " SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. " This was very difficult for me to grasp and accept. It took me a long time to really understand and accept this principle. One has to discard all the "I-ness" and False Ego to reach a state of absolute humility where you stand alone there taking full responsibility and accountability for everything in your life, with Bhagavan as your solace, comfort, and salvation. In my humble opinion, based on my personal experience, the most important concepts in GITA are non-dependence on others for happiness and satisfaction, and total faith and devotion on Bhagavan. HE is there for us, waiting for us, if only we realize this and go to Him. No one can abuse you or make you unhappy if you adhere to these principles. The moment I stopped looking for happiness, satisfaction, praise, approval, and sense of achievement from others, I became a new man, totally focused on Bhagavan. This was a great revolutionary discovery for me. Now I can't stop reading, studying, learning, and exulting in Geeta and the Scriptures. But, alas, I have to spend a few hours on work so I can pay the bills. These verses in Chapter 18 in Geeta are important. Devoted each to his own duty, man attains the highest perfection. How engaged in his own duty, he attains perfection, that hear. From whom is the evolution of all beings, by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, a man attains perfection. Better is one's own Dharma, (though) imperfect, than the Dharma of another well-performed. He who does the duty ordained by his own nature incurs no evil. But the crowning glory in this topic was this post in the sadhak group on Friday dealing with the topic "How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? " This is magnificent. This is nectar of GEETA explained lucidly and written exquisitely so that all of us can understand and ponder the immense significance of this message. It is below for those who haven't read it. Moderator ji may summarise it if it is too long but this is too important not to share with sadhaks. You should to this group by sending a mail to sadhaka- How to become Self-Reliant? How to become Independent and Free? Answer: No one likes dependency. A dependent man does not get happiness even in his dreams - "Paraadheen sapnehun sukh naahi" (Manasa 1:102:3). Inspite of being so, man desires happiness from others, he desires respect from others, he desires praise from others, he desires to gain from others - this is such a surprising thing. He who desires happiness, relaxation, gains from an individual, a thing, a situation, an incident, a state has to become dependent. He cannot escape it, whoever he may be. I go to that extent to state that even God cannot be saved. He who desires anything from another, he will be dependent. He who is a devotee of Paramatma, is not dependent, because Paramatma is not separate from him. Jeev is evidently and veritably a part of Paramatma. But if we desire other things besides Paramatma, then we will become dependent, because besides Paramatma no other thing is ours at all. It is only on not desiring other things that desire for Paramatma manifests. If desire for other things does not remain, then Paramatma will be realized. If there is desire for anything, that desire exhibits our poverty. Therefore why is it that you are purchasing poverty for free? If your desire is to be happy, then do not desire happiness from others. I would like to gain something from others, wipe this account (desire for transacting) out once and for all. No gain can come from others. Can he who desires something from others be saved from becoming dependent? Can he become independent? Can he be self-reliant and free? Therefore become firm on this one point - I will not desire anything. I will also not desire anything from Paramatma. One who believes himself to be dependent on those things that are created and later destroyed (perishable things), how can he be happy ? Another extraordinary point is that - those who desire from others are actually, non-deserving. They are not entitled at all. Just like one who desires respect from others, in not deserving of any respect. He who is deserving of respect, does not desire respect. If you look carefully in the 18 Akshouhini army, which has kshatriyas and kshatriyas, and Himself being a Kshatriya, He became a charioteer and driving the horses, is such an ordinary and disrespectful thing ! What is the greatness in steering the horses? Is it something that is deserving of respect? But Shri Krishna did not feel ashamed of doing this work. He who is deserving of respect does not desire respect. But how are we to know that he is deserving of respect? In the opposite army, the first one to blow the conch was Bhishmaji and in this army, the first one to blow the conch was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. This is because in the Kaurava army, the leader, the chief was Bhishma, whereas in the Pandava army, it was Shri Bhagwaan Krishna. He who desires respect is a slave to respect. He who desires disciples, is a slave to disciples. He who desires wealth, is a slave to wealth and riches. He is not a master (owner) of wealth at all. Therefore desires should be rooted out entirely from the mind. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath--------------Hari Om Extract from today's post in Sadhak group: God is My Very Own, There is None Other "God is My Very Own" (Mere toh Giridhar Gopal), this spiritual practice is one of taking complete refuge in Bhagwaan - God (sharanagati) . "There is None Other" (Dusero ne koyi). When our entire focus is only on God, that is considered exclusivity (ananyataa). Taking refuge in any form of Bhagwaan (God), is taking refuge in Bhagwaan Himself. This is not considered dependence on many. It is only when the dependence is on the World, that it is considered dependence on many. It is essential to give up / sacrifice (tyaag) the dependence on many. There isn't much to add to this. It says everything. Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. GITA 9:34Fix thy mind on Me only, place thy intellect in Me: (then) thou shalt no doubt live in Me hereafter. GITA 12:8 If we cast ourselves entirely on the mercy of Bhagavan, He bears all our cares and sorrows. We can depend upon His saving care and energizing grace. The mind of man is always averse to accepting its own defeat. Even when it is defeated, it explains away the defeat by throwing the blame on some one or the other or on some event over which it has no control. A mind must surrender to the Unknown, and when he thus surrenders, the Unknown protects him and nourishes him, giving him that total security which none but the Unknown can grant. Take control of your life and act as GITA tells us; don't be depressed and live in agony and distress because of the action of others. Get rid of the influence and dependence on others and seek Bhagavan. GITA describes the sadhak that Bhagavan urges us to be, GITA 12:13-19 He who hates no creature, and is friendly and compassionate towards all, who is free from the feelings of 'I and mine,' even-minded in pain and pleasure, forbearing, ever content, steady in meditation, self-controlled, and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on Me,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He by whom the world is not agitated and who cannot be agitated by the world, who is freed from joy, envy, fear and anxiety,—he is dear to Me. He who is free from dependence, who is pure, prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, renouncing every undertaking,—he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me. He who neither rejoices, nor hates, nor grieves, nor desires, renouncing good and evil, full of devotion, he is dear to Me. He who is the same to friend and foe, and also in honour and dishonour; who is the same in heat and cold, and in pleasure and pain; who is free from attachment; to whom censure and praise are equal; who is silent, content with anything, homeless, steady-minded, full of devotion,—that man is dear to Me We must study GITA, look to GITA JI for answers, Bhagavan gave us the Great GITA JI as a handbook for life and the path to Moksha. Live by GITA. May Bhagavan Bless us all. Krishna S Narinedath ------------------------ Hari Om.The high-quality contributions to this topic are a tribute to GITA. Just to tie up some loose ends. From Sister Shashikala Jee:Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. I agree that Bhagavan has infinite love, generosity, forbearance and forgiveness, but Bhagavan Lord Krishna was unambiguous about violating scriptural injunctions in GITA 16:23, 24. This is not inconsistent with His Boundless Love and Kindness. I draw the analogy with a parent who loves the children but must lay down the rules and let the children know that there are penalties for breaking these rules and laws. Parent still loves child but for the love of child, Parent must at times be strict and discipline child. Because The Big Daddy loves us he tells us that "let Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done." Too many Hindus want to put their own "spin" and interpretation of GITA, to suit a particular situation, but GITA is Eternal and Unchangeable, it is Eternal Sanatan Dharma and we cannot change or deny it. In response to Sushil Jain ji: Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation....Absolutely true. Let us heed Gandhi ji: Be the change you wish to see in the world. In response to Nanda ji:It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? I am afraid this is an example of Stockholm Syndrome where we are concerned about the abuser rather than the abused. The abused will be accountable for his actions, as GITA tells us, one word - Karma. Let us help the abused, rather than being so kind and caring about the abuser! I care more about counseling and help for the abused rather than "helping the abuser to mend their ways." I am sorry but my concern is helping the abused rather than abuser. There are too many abused victims out there who need our help while too many abusers and criminals are not punished and are assisted by State and Private organizations.In the final analysis, Bhagavan deals with the abusers and criminals, He is the ultimate judge, not me, not you, not any of us. I have total and absolute faith in Bhagavan and I am totally confident HE will deal with the abusers and criminals. HE may punish them or forgive them or do whatever he deems necessary but I know He will do the right thing. I suggest let us first, each of us, do as Vyas ji, Mike Ji, Sushil ji, Shashikala ji and others advise in today's mail and critically examine ourselves first and then act accordingly, rather than looking at external entities. Please see the very informative messages in today's mail.From Vyas Ji: We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance..... Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that.... Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. Bhagavan's Blessings to all. Krishna S Narinedathl ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om With sincere respects, as a sadhak I am continuing reply and healthy deliberations regarding the general queries of Krishnaji and Nandaji- Role of a sadhak in adverse marital life circumstances.. I presume here that circumstances are not such that make performance of your duties / karma/living in the same home an impossibility - such as physical beating etc. I will address that also, however. Normally I am not in favour of "running away" . You can't and even if you do, you can't throw some one out of your mind unless "Service/Knowledge has destroyed mamata (mineness) and ahankar (ego/me-ness) completely." Sorrows lie in the mind. Till contractual obligations are over, circumstances will continue to be adverse. Till stupidity continues, pains continue. After all we are living in a "Dukhalayam". My Mom, 75, often says: Bhaagane se nahin, bhogane se chhutkara milata hai. Freedom from bondage comes from tolerance/handling of adversity and not from running away from adversity. We have not been able to handle one hubby/home , how we shall handle another? 2nd... 3rd.. 4th .. Where is the end to it? We can't change "others". We can change ourselves only. It is law. Sorrow evaporates the moment we change ourselves and leave the desire to change others. Sorrow is located only in our mind/intellect/ego and ignorance. Q - So Vyas Ji--- he(the husband ) is trying to turn you away from God. Yes we know that God resides in everyone as Vyas Ji reiterated and God is in the abusive husband too. A There is no circumstance/happening/situation/ state or person who can ever stop you from sadhana. IT IS A LAW. Absolutely nothing. Sadhana can be done anytime, anywhere, in all situations, in all circumstances. What is needed in accepting firmly- O God I am yours , only you are mine, nothing else is mine ?? What kind of time / body is needed in that? That is 'sadhana' not sitting before idol always but thinking about hubby always. Every situation ultimately is for your spiritual advancement only. It is so because this life has been given to you for God Realisation only. YOU ARE NOT INDEPENDENT IN ANY OTHER THING EXCEPT GOD REALISATION. You are fully independent in that Definitely God resides in abusive husband. Only God is residing in him, presenting before you Questions to be solved, austerities to be performed, fogiveness/compassion etc to be practiced, "Duty"/ "Service" to be rendered, Equanimity to be practiced. Who else , except God can give you such a divine platform for performing your sadhana ? Who else can do it, when no other except Paramatma exists- as a Law ? This is real sadhana. This is real austerity.This is human life. This is how the world is an examination hall for a sadhak. Q--is it God who is abusing you? Or is it the abuser have suppressed the goodness/God inside of him/her and thus allowing demoniac tendencies to overtake his/her goodness? A. No ! Neither God is abusing you nor husband is abusing you. You are abusing yourself. Divine Law of Karma has presented X or Y circumstance/situation before you based on your past conduct. That is all. This circumstance/situation has no capacity to make you happy or sorrowful. I REPEAT NO CAPACITY. You get sorrowful due to your own foolishness. Absolutely no doubt on this. Argue, if you can on this ! Q Nothing but destruction and heartbreak comes from an abusive relationship. A. Destruction and heartbreak does not come out of abusive relationship. It generates/ comes out of "desire for happiness" from the relationship. It arises out of your "mineness" with the husband. You still have desire in you that hubby should conduct the way you want him to conduct. The dirt of "mamata" (mineness) with him is still there. It arises because we have not yet become sadhak. It arises because we are erroneously considering that X or Y circumstance is an essential pre requisite for "sadhana". (striving) It arises because we don't believe that Paramatma is existing everywhere, in all and at all times,Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B. -Shree Hari- Dear Mahalakshmiji, I have given this question some thought, firstly I would endorse, Gitaji Chapt.16, (as indicated by Sri Krishna S Narinedathri), as a whole to give a balancedview of the two mindset, 'Demonic', 'Divine', the abuser serves a dark master. The question is where the line is drawn? I will answer this question with aquestion:What is an acceptable amount of the following per day/ week/ ever? Bourbon/booze/grog,Lines of cocaine,Joints,Tobacco,(The list goes on). All the above is self abuse, and destructive to oneself and indirectly tosociety at large. Any thinking individual can understand this, and realizes zerotolerance to such abuse of self is, 'The line to be drawn' Of course many understand this, but cannot shake these appalling habits, becausethey are dependent on these destructive props. There are many spouses who are 'Asleep', they are not 'Demonic', they do notabuse, nor obstruct, and with love and time, they may 'Wake Up! In the latest post of Sadhaka, the subject of dependence was dealt with, thus ifa wife feels dependent upon the the husband, "He brings home the bread, how onearth could I survive?", but you know all that.Sometimes in fear and shame she will let the children be abused. The word is 'Independence', of spirit, never to be dominated by 'Darkness', thedark and the light cannot exist in each others presence. So if a soul is weakand dependent, then one should be the source of light to support them, and helpguide them out of such horror, if with the help of GOD one can. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor - Spirituality is about your "self" (it is not about other or others).......know your self, know how the nature works, rules of life works, wisdom works.... Your being happy and peaceful is the most important and your focus should be there all the time....Make corrections when you feel uncomfortable, uneasy, irritated, frustrated, etc.. by asking questions like what do I do to be happy? You have a choice to be happy or unhappy in any situation.....by choosing to change or adjust to the situation......through vivek (discrimination) it starts to happen.. Second most important thing is your own thoughts which get transmitted to others around you all the time...Change them to positive-thought or happy thoughts or no-thoughts (your happy natural state).....As your mental transmission becomes positive or happy or maun, you may see a clear change in your self and others around you too.........experiment with it.........have patience for the results.......which are guaranteed.....because that is the way the life works, that is the truth.... Sushil Jain -------------------------- Jai Hanuman We often presume "sadhana" to be sitting before idol of God, worshipping and praying, and reading Scriptures etc etc. But real sadhana does not involve body or mind or intellect or time at all !! Real sadhana is "becoming of God" - of Daddy the Great. Once you "become" of God , every action made by you, by your mind, your body is sadhana even if that action is cooking or washing or seeing a movie or taking a bath or sharing the bed with hubby. Why then there should be a fight for the "time" or "use of body" ? Body/time etc have no role to play in your "becoming" of God ! Let the body, mind, intellect, ego, TIME, ability, power, authority, beauty, health, wealth, intelligence, virtues etc remain engrossed in the service of the world. They have been given to you by world only. They are part of world only. They are capable of remaining in the world only and they shall merge in the end with the world only. They have no role for "self". NO ROLE, I SAY ! The "renunciation" of them has a role ! They have been given to you for renouncing them in favour of "others" viz the world only. (Here say favouring your home/hubby/kids) They have no capacity to reach Daddy the great, as they are part of Nature, and Daddy is beyond nature. Hence any quarrelling in the home, the temple for every married woman, is unnecessary, unfortunate and in the end will be proved to be output of STUPIDITY only ! Saints and Scriprures are unanimous on this. Isn't it, Nandaji ? Does not that solve the problem raised by Mahalaxmi Dasi and related issues raised by you? Fight is for time and attention of wife for hubby. Give hubby that ! No body will accuse you of dereliction of duty. Daddy the Great will love to see you doing that. Sanatan Dharma suggests that. Your desire for "peace" gets fulfilled there. Only ego is obstacle. Throw that ego into dust bin and give 24X7 of your time, attention, body, mind etc to your hubby and home. Jhagada Khattam (War is over) . Consider those things for him only. What is wrong ? That is real sadhana, Jee ! You don't need those time, body etc for sadhana even otherwise. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Why we should run away? This is how bull has to be taken by the horns, Jee ! Brother Krishna Narinedath ! Daddy the Great is the most benevolent. He is the peak of kindness. "Forgiveness" is called a Divine Property under Gita , merely because Daddy has that quality in Him in abundance ! He always is forgiving and condoner of our abuses, disrespects and sins. No one can ever be more forgiving or more condoner or compassionate than Him, Jee. Reconsider therefore your views about HIM. Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala Pranaam. Vyas Ji, Thank you for your patience and for sharing and educating the rest of us. It good to see that everyone here supports the victims of abuse. It is interesting to read Krishna Ji's explanation of victims and their bonding with their abusers--very amazing indeed. My question is---does this help the abusers to mend their ways and become better people? Is it not true that when you support or allow someone to continue to be abusive--it is more harmful to that person, you and society at large? And for those men(and women) who have abusive personalities that are left alone--are they still not threats to society and to other innocent people who they will trap into their abusive web again? Should we not get them help? Lord Krsna expounded in Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 we alone have the ability to lift ourselves up from our base self and become divine, we are our own friend and our own foe. To deny that one is abusive is debasing oneself and denying yourself the chance of divinity and that is the greatest tragedy of all.Chapter 9 Verse 30 --31 says, The Lord accepts anyone who goes to Him with steadfast devotion and soon after that , even a sinner become a person of righteousness. My prayer is that while we help and support victims of abuse, that the abusers remember as Vyas Ji mentioned ---God is in them and that they should strive to follow the advise of Chapter 6 Verses 5 & 6 and Chapter 9 Verses 30-31.Sincerely,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om A lot of Qs have been asked to me. OK. Let me address one by one. Hence in 2/3 postings I will reply. But I will give detailed reply. Really very genuine Qs have been raised by both Krishnaji and Nandaji. My salutations to them. I love such Qs. I urge them to keep deliberating till either of me or you are satisfied fully. Please cooperate with me by asking counter questions. Other sadhaks may also participate. At the outset I must state that this human life is not some sort of "bhog" yoni. It is "karma/Yog yoni." You have come here to break the chains binding you from time immemorial. This world is an examination hall. This life presents to you peculiar cicumstances based on your conduct in the past and you have to face the same and conquer the same , once and for all. This world is defined to be a "dukhalayam". Here everything in the end must produce sorrow and sorrow only. There is no provision made for pleasures. THE WORLD HAS BEEN CREATED LIKE THAT ONLY. Now your job is to convert this "dukhalayam" into "Vasudev Sarvam" . Any doubts on this ? (Pls raise doubts. I love clearing them) There is not a single human ever born who has not experienced / suffered sorrows- I repeat not a single human being- however powerful / equipped/ learned/knowledgeable he may be ! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS- including even the "Baap" of Lord Rama, wife of Lord Rama, Mother of Lord Krishna ...... Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mahaveer, Mother Mary, Prophet Mohammad, Sikh Gurus..... !! Who has not suffered ? Q Bhagavan would never condone abuse and hurt, by anyone to anyone, so why should we? There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. A. What do you propose to do? What can you do except changing your "self" ? Can you control others? No ! You can't control your own body/mind/intellect , how can you control others? Sorrow arises to you because circumstances don't let you run away. You are helpless. You can't change circumstances. We should condone because "To forgive" is a divine property and to "take revenge" is demonaic property. You yourself has listed "forgiveness" as sadhana ! Even otherwise, where is the Q of any one being responsible for your sorrows? You, yourself and no one else is responsible for your sorrows. Sorrows cease as soon as your leave "desire for happiness" i e your foolishness. What poor circumstances have got to do with the sorrows? Sorrow is not in the circumstances. It is in you inside, not outside. Don't accept the circumstances to be an abuse and sorrow goes. You are completely independent in not accepting abuse. How not to accept? Don't consider that to be abuse at all. Instead consider that to be an opportunity sent by God to you so that you may practice Divine Properties- Austerity, Compassion, Forgiveness, renunciation, non anger, patience, non violence, gentleness !! Matter ends there. You yourself has listed these qualities to be "sadhana" ! Isn't it? Holy Scriptures have said: Sukha Dukha na kopi daata !Paro dadati kubuddih resha !! There is no one who gives pleasures or pains to you. That other is giving it- this very thought is culprit and wrong. This is "kubuddhih" (spoilt intellect) Bhagwan too said to Arjuna in the beginning of Gita- Taans titikshva Bharat. (Pls forbear/tolerate) - BG 2:14. SORROWNESS IS THE RESULT OF OWN STUPIDITY. THERE CANT BE ANY OTHER CAUSING IT. - It is a law. Balance Qs later on. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B--------- NamasteTo all - I urge you not to remain in an abusive environment. If you are in physical danger then report the matter to the officials and leave. Get out of such a situation. I did, and my life has improved after a terrible experience. Bhagavan will help you, pray to Him, and start a fresh life. There are many very good people out there who you can meet and you can select someone who will treat you better. Make a clean break, don't suffer - Geeta does not teach us to suffer in agony and pain. Geeta urges us to take appropriate action. Ram Ram, Deosaran Bisnath---------Hari Om In Clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" or "I love my new wife and I am glad to end that marriage but I wonder what is she doing.....I am happy but..." Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes! On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th. After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude - they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages felt the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors. While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as Abused Children, Battered/Abused Women, Prisoners of War, Cult Members, and Incest Victims. From my interaction and discussions, it is quite clear that there is insufficient counseling and assistance for abused victims. Many suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and are still attracted or addicted it seems to the abuser. Some try to "save" the abuser, with help from Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads, and when this fails they venture into unconventional methods. Friends, relatives, counselors, law and order authorities warn abusers but they still persist in wanting to go back and resume the abusive relationship, even after years apart! This phenomenon is termed "The Mystery of Loving an Abuser". Turn to Bhagavad Gita because Gita has the answers. Bhagavan warns us not to waste time and effort with those who are devoid of devotion: This is never to be spoken by thee to one who is devoid of austerities or devotion, nor to one who does not render service, nor to one who cavils at Me. GITA 18:67 Why bother with those who abuse us? Bhagavan says to ignore them. But to those who are devoted:He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this deeply profound philosophy to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me alone. GITA 18:68 And, of course, the essence of Gita, which tell us to be devoted to Bhagavan. He will help us: Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. GITA 18:65-66. Gita tells us not to undergo severe austerities and penances, suffering and pain because Bhagavan does not require that from us: Those men who practise severe austerities not enjoined by the Shâstras, given to ostentation and egoism, possessed with the power of lust and attachment, torture, senseless as they are, all the organs in the body, and Me dwelling in the body within; know them to be of Asurika resolve. GITA 17:6 Bhagavan is merciful and loving but He is quite clear about those who ignore scriptural injunctions:He who, setting aside the ordinance of the Shâstra, acts under the impulse of desire, attains not to perfection, nor happiness, nor the Goal Supreme. So let the Shâstra be thy authority in ascertaining what ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in the ordinance of the Shâstra, thou shouldst act here. GITA 16:23-24 In conclusion, GITA has all the answer, study GITA, seek from GITA and ye shall receive. Best Regards and May Bhagavan help those who are suffering. and all of us. Krishna S Narinedath. -------- Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar, Malakshmiji has raised a valid point. Most of the time, women have to be submisive and yield to males in their relations..may he be husband, father, brother or any such close relations. This applies to work places as well. Lady employees are harrassed by male employees...superiors or subordinates...Nurses and female doctors are dominated even by ward boys. We have been living in a male dominated society, right from the period of Ramayana and Mahabharata. Guided by the law of Manu...Na Stree Swatantryam Arhati...(Woman does not deserve independance). In modern times, household lady deserves respect only when she sacrifices for the family. If the husband is sick or handicapped and the household is run by the wife, or if she is a widow and looking after and educating the children. then only, perhaps male relatives will respect the lady. I feel, the the male domination will continue in the present scenario. ....Gee Waman ----- Hari Om Accepting abuse is NEVER appropriate, whether it is woman, child, or man. Bhagvan tells in Geeta 16:1,2,3 how we should conduct our lives: Fearlessness, purity of heart, steadfastness in knowledge and Yoga; almsgiving, control of the senses, Yajna, reading of the Shâstras, austerity, uprightness; Non-injury, truth, absence of anger, renunciation, tranquillity, absence of calumny, compassion to beings, un-covetousness, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; Boldness, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, absence of hatred, absence of pride; these belong to one born for a divine state, O descendant of Bharata. Note - Non-injury and gentleness, not abuse and mistreating others. There is only one line to be drawn: never accept or condone abuse. Bhagavan would certainly want His devotees to treat everyone as a human being with the same rights and privileges. We must always remember that Bhagavan wants us to live our lives as an offering to Him; this does include abuse, hurt, and pain to others: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give, whatever you practise as austerity, O Kaunteya, do it as as an offering to Me. Geeta 9:27 Hindus - men, women, and children - should not be submissive. Nowhere in Geeta does Bhagavan says to be submissive. Instead. Bhagavan urges us to go forth and fight - not necessarily physical, but in terms of advancing spirituality and overcoming obstacles. In Geeta 4:42, Bhagavan encourages Arjuna to cut off the bonds (Message over 64k, truncated.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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