Why Disturb God's Plans ?

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhaks,

You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan.

GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS.

DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali yug.

Exact number of years are mentioned.

Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where, to

whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma.

Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but sometime

fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and effect

for several births of a soul which works automatically in which GOD

remains witness.

 

Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS (devotees).

Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think off.

Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to GOD

and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things around,

does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS

WITNESS.

Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special effort)

for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD

REMAINS WITNESS.

 

When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all penance.

When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role - kartha,

doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine energy

(shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that

makes us believe that we are doing.

 

This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated

saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc

 

Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier. How

can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very very

short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and you

have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body which

you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if you

choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus feet

and live by His plans.

B.Sathyanarayan

-

Is Life Free-Will or Destiny?

 

Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you

breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is

pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can

always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the

free will here?

 

Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing

will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my

presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to

adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am

the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for

whatever it is.

 

Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me

who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of

environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who

insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that

has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their

belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors

govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you

think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once

upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect

their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves

because they believe that they are their beliefs.

 

One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial

residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding

individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that

every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own

sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two ideologies

because they are both correct.

 

Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both

correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really

opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in

the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is

free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same

sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. Just

because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does not

exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The front,

the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, … they

are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have!

 

There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and

environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is

what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The

knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I

have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the

one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I

possess or I am blessed with.

 

Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not

explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's

benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me

need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They

obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such

people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover

around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of

their desires.

 

Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many

reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns –

ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2)

these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and

(3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy

in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4)

No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no

known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to

advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The

Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and

beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is

the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they

start believing that some unknown force protects them.

 

We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and

what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One

who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to

care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown

and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made

of Free Will.

 

It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am,

all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have

accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the

free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing

but a bunch of environmental stimuli?

 

We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and

declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life.

One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all

respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse

to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by

ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason,

what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to

insist that life is made of Destiny.

 

It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am,

all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my

cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the

environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and

generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have

identical perception and experience in any event with identical

characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally

based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that

brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make

sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the

result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and

acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is

the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very

definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances?

 

" Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running

together to make this life happen. "

 

There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to

corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement –

letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are ever

ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant

tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise

oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain such

illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are

distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other.

Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur?

Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the

positive side of all the events since they are identified with their

positivity in the first place – one who is identified with

positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on oneself.

The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the

altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the judgment

that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to

be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it

does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is

the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its

freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever faced

it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the

destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by that –

if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is

not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be

surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This

tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance

further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the

arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and

dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more

vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the ignorance

one is eclipsed with.

 

Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above argument

lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the

two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of both

polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks

the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is bound

to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, one

who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event

is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always on

one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's

focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a

chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these

wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the

intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their inertia.

Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain our

balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing the

inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite

directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one

while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by

letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting

the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances

the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their

pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become

one with the axle eventually.

 

At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you

say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for miseries –

after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to pure

Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you have no

say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is anyway

destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you cannot

be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have absolute

desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then

how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in

isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when your

very argument is a mixture of the two???!!!

 

No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are mutually

exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is

bound to be FALSE!!

 

No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of each

other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn

Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own

approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain

itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing

itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance).

 

This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites are

the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are

created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's

benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not created

by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you

acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the

impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no

apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But the

illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of desires

desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the

same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of

fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires

completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them and

eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is

hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who

is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator

and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim

of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the

predator.

 

The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly

with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot

dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge

whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear or

for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither

captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains

captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on its

desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick).

The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and

the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase

continues.

 

It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind

never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to

inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired, it

may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built continues

to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel rim,

the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The

mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms

of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The

same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same

fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game

continues.

 

Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha;

mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati.

 

Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana;

mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

-

 

" Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed in

two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme wisdom

of the Creator.

 

Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is) would

lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than generic

parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs, frogs,

and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in the

image of God like the Bible says?

 

When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He breathed

life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image " (Genesis

1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a

tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who created

us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that

comprise our universe?

 

The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting within

all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-194. The

maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to

be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand trillion

trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion

trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one

such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross, PhD

Astrophysics, University of Toronto)

 

The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the universe, let

alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small. Science

has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special.

 

How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While

we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even though

we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all

those who are willing to repent and accept it.

 

When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved, remember

our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all

numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. "

(Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God.

 

Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you

through tough times, to be who you are today?

 

yeshu rathenam

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite answer....this

> way or that way.....

> Why not go within and know from experience.......

>

> experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know.....

> andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi....

>

> Sushil Jain

>

> dear pratap Bhai,

>

> my humble parnaams ...

> you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really

> Exist ? There is Only Free Will and

> That is HIS WILL

> To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our limited

> Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman...

> And there we may Know What is Free Will

> my sincere regards..

> kuldip Suri

>

>

> -

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > Kuldipji is asking:

> > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will?

> > whether it truly Exists...?

> >

> > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will! When Our

> > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms of

> > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes and

> > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is always

> > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense.

> > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity,

> > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will!

> > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will have

total

> > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes! It is

> to

> > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of all!

> It is

> > thus never predetermined because right things are never

absolutely

> > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen:

> > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence-

> > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such freedom

> is

> > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right actions

are

> > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person).

> > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts,

> beliefs,

> > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward. Person

is

> > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose reality is

> > Mirror!

> >

> > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense of

> being

> > an individual, which one is not!

> >

> > Pratap

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear divine souls,,,

> > >

> > >

> > > parnaams!

> > >

> > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause and

> effect.

> > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as

> experienced

> > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan.

> > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what happens.

> > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have control

> over

> > > our present actions.

> > >

> > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it truly

> > Exists...?

> > >

> > > Please provide your insights

> > > thanks

> > > eternal child.

> > > Kuldip Suri>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

dear divine souls !

 

In life all sorts of things offer themselves. There is a choice of

action and a wrong choice produces its consequences...

 

All is free-will or else all is destiny-- it is not so simple as

that... free will and universal determinism is the most knotty of

all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able

to solve it.

 

my Questions to respected Naga naryana ji is or any one who would

like to respond..?

If world as we see today..chaos, sufferings, violence against

humanity as is His Will...Then Why krishna promises

 

" Whenever there is the decline of Dharma and uprising of

unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself " (Gita 4:7)..

" For the protection of the good, as for the destruction of the evil

doers, as for the establishment of righteousness, I manifest Myself

for the enthroning of the Right.I am from age to age. " (Gita 4:8)

 

He would simply had not Willed it in that way in the beginning

itself? Why to create a problem in first place and then the coming

of Avataras to esteblish righteousness on Earth ? this does not

seem to make sense to me ?

 

The world is manifestation of God..as we see as Cosmic Play..but.the

Play of Dark forces is Not His Will the Devil or the Undivine

Forces who are Dominating today in the Universe could not have been

HIS WILL.. He has Sanctioned All forces to act in their own Way..

but Not Willed IT???

 

Pls clear my doubts being a child groping in the

darkness..

 

Is the world we see today IS HIS WILL?

 

my humble parnaams to ALL participating souls in this

forum

 

kuldip suri..

eternal child

 

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhaks,

> You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan.

> GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS.

> DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali

yug.

> Exact number of years are mentioned.

> Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where, to

> whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma.

> Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but sometime

> fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and effect

> for several births of a soul which works automatically in which

GOD

> remains witness.

>

> Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS (devotees).

> Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think

off.

> Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to

GOD

> and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things around,

> does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS

> WITNESS.

> Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special effort)

> for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD

> REMAINS WITNESS.

>

> When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all

penance.

> When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role -

kartha,

> doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine energy

> (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that

> makes us believe that we are doing.

>

> This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated

> saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc

>

> Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier. How

> can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very very

> short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and

you

> have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body

which

> you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if you

> choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus

feet

> and live by His plans.

> B.Sathyanarayan

> -

> Is Life Free-Will or Destiny?

>

> Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you

> breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is

> pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one

can

> always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is

the

> free will here?

>

> Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act

nothing

> will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my

> presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to

> adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am

> the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for

> whatever it is.

>

> Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me

> who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of

> environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who

> insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that

> has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their

> belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors

> govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you

> think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once

> upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect

> their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves

> because they believe that they are their beliefs.

>

> One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial

> residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding

> individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that

> every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its

own

> sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two ideologies

> because they are both correct.

>

> Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both

> correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really

> opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in

> the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is

> free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same

> sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion.

Just

> because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does not

> exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The

front,

> the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, …

they

> are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have!

>

> There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and

> environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known

is

> what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval.

The

> knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that

I

> have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the

> one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I

> possess or I am blessed with.

>

> Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is

not

> explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's

> benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me

> need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They

> obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such

> people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover

> around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of

> their desires.

>

> Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many

> reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns –

> ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2)

> these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes;

and

> (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still

unhappy

> in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known;

(4)

> No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no

> known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to

> advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The

> Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions

and

> beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is

> the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they

> start believing that some unknown force protects them.

>

> We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and

> what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One

> who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to

> care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown

> and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is

made

> of Free Will.

>

> It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am,

> all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have

> accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the

> free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing

> but a bunch of environmental stimuli?

>

> We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and

> declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life.

> One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all

> respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse

> to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed

by

> ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason,

> what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to

> insist that life is made of Destiny.

>

> It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am,

> all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within

my

> cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the

> environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and

> generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have

> identical perception and experience in any event with identical

> characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally

> based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that

> brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make

> sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the

> result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and

> acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is

> the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very

> definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances?

>

> " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running

> together to make this life happen. "

>

> There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to

> corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement –

> letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are ever

> ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant

> tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise

> oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain such

> illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are

> distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other.

> Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur?

> Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the

> positive side of all the events since they are identified with

their

> positivity in the first place – one who is identified with

> positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on

oneself.

> The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the

> altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the

judgment

> that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to

> be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it

> does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is

> the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its

> freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever faced

> it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the

> destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by

that –

> if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is

> not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be

> surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This

> tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance

> further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the

> arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and

> dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more

> vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the

ignorance

> one is eclipsed with.

>

> Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above

argument

> lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the

> two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of both

> polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks

> the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is

bound

> to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However,

one

> who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event

> is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always

on

> one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's

> focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a

> chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these

> wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the

> intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their

inertia.

> Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain

our

> balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing

the

> inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite

> directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one

> while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by

> letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting

> the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances

> the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their

> pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become

> one with the axle eventually.

>

> At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you

> say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for

miseries –

> after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to pure

> Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you have

no

> say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is

anyway

> destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you

cannot

> be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have absolute

> desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then

> how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in

> isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when your

> very argument is a mixture of the two???!!!

>

> No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are

mutually

> exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is

> bound to be FALSE!!

>

> No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of

each

> other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn

> Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own

> approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain

> itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing

> itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance).

>

> This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites

are

> the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are

> created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's

> benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not

created

> by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you

> acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the

> impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no

> apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But the

> illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of

desires

> desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the

> same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of

> fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires

> completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them

and

> eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is

> hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who

> is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator

> and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim

> of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the

> predator.

>

> The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly

> with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot

> dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge

> whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear

or

> for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither

> captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains

> captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on

its

> desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick).

> The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and

> the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase

> continues.

>

> It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind

> never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to

> inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired,

it

> may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built

continues

> to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel

rim,

> the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The

> mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms

> of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The

> same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same

> fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game

> continues.

>

> Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha;

> mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati.

>

> Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana;

> mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

> -

>

> " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed in

> two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme

wisdom

> of the Creator.

>

> Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is)

would

> lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than generic

> parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs, frogs,

> and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in the

> image of God like the Bible says?

>

> When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He

breathed

> life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image " (Genesis

> 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a

> tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who created

> us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that

> comprise our universe?

>

> The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting

within

> all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-194. The

> maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to

> be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand trillion

> trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion

> trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one

> such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross,

PhD

> Astrophysics, University of Toronto)

>

> The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the universe,

let

> alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small. Science

> has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special.

>

> How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this:

While

> we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even

though

> we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all

> those who are willing to repent and accept it.

>

> When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved,

remember

> our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all

> numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. "

> (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God.

>

> Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you

> through tough times, to be who you are today?

>

> yeshu rathenam

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite

answer....this

> > way or that way.....

> > Why not go within and know from experience.......

> >

> > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know.....

> > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi....

> >

> > Sushil Jain

> > --------------------------------

-

> > dear pratap Bhai,

> >

> > my humble parnaams ...

> > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really

> > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and

> > That is HIS WILL

> > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our

limited

> > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman...

> > And there we may Know What is Free Will

> > my sincere regards..

> > kuldip Suri

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > Kuldipji is asking:

> > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will?

> > > whether it truly Exists...?

> > >

> > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will! When

Our

> > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms of

> > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes

and

> > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is

always

> > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense.

> > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity,

> > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will!

> > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will have

> total

> > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes! It

is

> > to

> > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of

all!

> > It is

> > > thus never predetermined because right things are never

> absolutely

> > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen:

> > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence-

> > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such

freedom

> > is

> > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right actions

> are

> > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person).

> > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts,

> > beliefs,

> > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward.

Person

> is

> > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose reality

is

> > > Mirror!

> > >

> > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense of

> > being

> > > an individual, which one is not!

> > >

> > > Pratap

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear divine souls,,,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > parnaams!

> > > >

> > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause and

> > effect.

> > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as

> > experienced

> > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan.

> > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what happens.

> > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have control

> > over

> > > > our present actions.

> > > >

> > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it

truly

> > > Exists...?

> > > >

> > > > Please provide your insights

> > > > thanks

> > > > eternal child.

> > > > Kuldip Suri>

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The questions Kuldipji brought out are the very ones that Sanatana

Dharma alone has tackled and other faiths failed. In a very

simplistic way it is explained that God has created all the laws

under the umbrella of 'Cosmic Intelligence' or Universal

Consciousness. God has nothing to do with their use and evolution

of individual entity. It is easy to understand taking the material

example and extend the logic to the Intelligence level. Sun gives

us all that is needed to sustain life on earth. Without his

presence, not a blade of grass grows and if there is no food, there

is no life created on sustained. " Annad bhavanti Bhutaani

prajanayd anna sambhavah .... " from Gita. If I want to expose

myself to the Sun in California desert continuously for days and

kill myself with skin cancer, Sun is not responsible for that. He

gives all that is needed but how we utilize and evolve is our

(Creatures) responsibility which in varied ways expressed as

acquired Karma. Since God is only witness, He has no responsibility

for how we use/misuse his laws. Again taking another material

example of pollution, if we create lot of pollution, nature makes

that place inhabitable and living beings move away to a better

place. The law of this migration is also provided by Him.

 

Coming to God's statement that I will be taking up a new incarnation

to correct the bad things, we can think in terms of HIM coming up

with new laws as he is the ONE who proclaims them. For example he

can take away the SUN from us and leaving the earth completely

destroyed. But life prospers perhaps in another galaxy. Nature's

corrective mechanism is a beautiful control system. It takes the

feedback of the error and corrects it in terms of change of climate,

change of seasons etc. as we are able to comprehend. GOD comes in if

this corrective mechanism is not working and the error is too large

that nature is unable to correct it.

 

Words have limitations to express. Vedic texts explain the

fundamentals in different styles and different examples to drive

home the central point. We need to understand all the statements

with deeper meaning. If there is an order (Niyata) in the universe,

there must be someone (Niyanta) who created that order that is GOD.

I am glad to participate in this dialog. It is the only way to

understand the real strength of our scriptures. In summary, these

scriptures tell us that the Creation and Evolution both are valid in

their own way. One to create the universal laws and the other to

evolve based on them to realize the laws. This is the purpose of

life at all levels it appears. Hari OM.

 

B Vempaty

 

---

HE watches the kaledoscopic play as created by reflection of My EGO,

Physical Laws that HE Created, and My Past Karmas.

When I see the same event in others life I see the factors at play,

choices -right and wrong - they make and the randomness of, or

devine will in the outcome. When similar things happen in my life, I

see it as suffering or triumph, rather than being a witness to what

happened.

May HE lead us from darkness to light.

 

HEMENDRA PARIKH

--

All is free-will or else all is destiny.?

 

" destiny in the rigid sense applies only to the outer being so long

as it lives in the Ignorance. What we call destiny is only in fact

the result of the present condition of the being and the nature and

energies it has acumulated in the past acting on each other and

determining the present attempts and their future results. But as

soon as one enters the path of spiritual life, this old

predetermined destiny begins to recede. There comes in a new factor,

The Divine Grace....the help of of a higher Divine Force other than

the force of Karma....which can lift the sadhak beyond the present

possibilties of his nature.

One's spiritual destiny is then the divine election which ensures

the future. The only doubt is about the vicissitudes of the Path

and the time to be taken by the passage. It is here that the

hostile forces playing on the weaknesses of the past nature strive

to prevent the rapidity of the progress and to postpone the

fulfillment.

 

Those who fall, fall not because of the attacks of the vital forces,

but because they put themselves on the side of the hostile Force and

prefer a vital ambition of desire (ambition,vanity,lust,etc.) to the

spiritual siddhi...

 

(few words complied from Sri aurobindo's letters On Yoga...)

 

kuldip suri

-

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> dear divine souls !

>

> In life all sorts of things offer themselves. There is a choice of

> action and a wrong choice produces its consequences...

>

> All is free-will or else all is destiny-- it is not so simple as

> that... free will and universal determinism is the most knotty of

> all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able

> to solve it.

>

> my Questions to respected Naga naryana ji is or any one who would

> like to respond..?

> If world as we see today..chaos, sufferings, violence against

> humanity as is His Will...Then Why krishna promises

>

> " Whenever there is the decline of Dharma and uprising of

> unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself " (Gita 4:7)..

> " For the protection of the good, as for the destruction of the

evil

> doers, as for the establishment of righteousness, I manifest

Myself

> for the enthroning of the Right.I am from age to age. " (Gita

4:8)

>

> He would simply had not Willed it in that way in the beginning

> itself? Why to create a problem in first place and then the coming

> of Avataras to esteblish righteousness on Earth ? this does not

> seem to make sense to me ?

>

> The world is manifestation of God..as we see as Cosmic

Play..but.the

> Play of Dark forces is Not His Will the Devil or the Undivine

> Forces who are Dominating today in the Universe could not have

been

> HIS WILL.. He has Sanctioned All forces to act in their own Way..

> but Not Willed IT???

>

> Pls clear my doubts being a child groping in the

> darkness..

>

> Is the world we see today IS HIS WILL?

>

> my humble parnaams to ALL participating souls in this

> forum

>

> kuldip suri..

> eternal child

>

> -

--

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhaks,

> > You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan.

> > GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS.

> > DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali

> yug.

> > Exact number of years are mentioned.

> > Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where,

to

> > whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma.

> > Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but

sometime

> > fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and

effect

> > for several births of a soul which works automatically in which

> GOD

> > remains witness.

> >

> > Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS

(devotees).

> > Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think

> off.

> > Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to

> GOD

> > and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things

around,

> > does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS

> > WITNESS.

> > Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special

effort)

> > for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD

> > REMAINS WITNESS.

> >

> > When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all

> penance.

> > When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role -

> kartha,

> > doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine

energy

> > (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that

> > makes us believe that we are doing.

> >

> > This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated

> > saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc

> >

> > Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier.

How

> > can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very

very

> > short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and

> you

> > have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body

> which

> > you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if

you

> > choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus

> feet

> > and live by His plans.

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> > --------------------------------

--

> > Is Life Free-Will or Destiny?

> >

> > Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you

> > breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for,

is

> > pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one

> can

> > always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is

> the

> > free will here?

> >

> > Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act

> nothing

> > will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my

> > presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to

> > adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I

am

> > the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for

> > whatever it is.

> >

> > Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is

me

> > who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of

> > environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who

> > insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that

> > has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect

their

> > belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental

factors

> > govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever

you

> > think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment

once

> > upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to

protect

> > their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting

themselves

> > because they believe that they are their beliefs.

> >

> > One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial

> > residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding

> > individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that

> > every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its

> own

> > sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two

ideologies

> > because they are both correct.

> >

> > Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both

> > correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really

> > opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other

in

> > the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is

> > free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same

> > sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion.

> Just

> > because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does

not

> > exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The

> front,

> > the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, …

> they

> > are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have!

> >

> > There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject

and

> > environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The

known

> is

> > what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval.

> The

> > knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum

that

> I

> > have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is

the

> > one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I

> > possess or I am blessed with.

> >

> > Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is

> not

> > explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's

> > benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to

me

> > need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They

> > obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will.

Such

> > people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs

hover

> > around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set

of

> > their desires.

> >

> > Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many

> > reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these

knowns –

> > ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2)

> > these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes;

> and

> > (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still

> unhappy

> > in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known;

> (4)

> > No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no

> > known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to

> > advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The

> > Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions

> and

> > beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity

is

> > the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they

> > start believing that some unknown force protects them.

> >

> > We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and

> > what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One

> > who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse

to

> > care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are

unknown

> > and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is

> made

> > of Free Will.

> >

> > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I

am,

> > all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have

> > accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the

> > free will since the very definition of my very identity is

nothing

> > but a bunch of environmental stimuli?

> >

> > We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life

and

> > declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of

life.

> > One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all

> > respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and

refuse

> > to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is

governed

> by

> > ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good

reason,

> > what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend

to

> > insist that life is made of Destiny.

> >

> > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I

am,

> > all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created

within

> my

> > cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the

> > environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and

> > generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have

> > identical perception and experience in any event with identical

> > characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated

internally

> > based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire

that

> > brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to

make

> > sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the

> > result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and

> > acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is

> > the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very

> > definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances?

> >

> > " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running

> > together to make this life happen. "

> >

> > There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to

> > corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement –

> > letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are

ever

> > ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant

> > tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise

> > oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain

such

> > illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are

> > distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each

other.

> > Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur?

> > Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own

the

> > positive side of all the events since they are identified with

> their

> > positivity in the first place – one who is identified with

> > positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on

> oneself.

> > The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take

the

> > altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the

> judgment

> > that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself

to

> > be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what

it

> > does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is

> > the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised

its

> > freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever

faced

> > it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the

> > destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by

> that –

> > if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is

> > not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be

> > surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation.

This

> > tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance

> > further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the

> > arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and

> > dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more

> > vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the

> ignorance

> > one is eclipsed with.

> >

> > Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above

> argument

> > lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying

the

> > two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of

both

> > polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who

seeks

> > the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is

> bound

> > to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However,

> one

> > who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every

event

> > is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is

always

> on

> > one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another.

Shreya's

> > focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a

> > chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these

> > wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the

> > intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their

> inertia.

> > Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain

> our

> > balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing

> the

> > inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite

> > directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating

one

> > while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by

> > letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other

letting

> > the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances

> > the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces

their

> > pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to

become

> > one with the axle eventually.

> >

> > At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you

> > say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for

> miseries –

> > after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to

pure

> > Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you

have

> no

> > say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is

> anyway

> > destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you

> cannot

> > be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have

absolute

> > desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?!

Then

> > how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in

> > isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when

your

> > very argument is a mixture of the two???!!!

> >

> > No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are

> mutually

> > exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is

> > bound to be FALSE!!

> >

> > No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of

> each

> > other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn

> > Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own

> > approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain

> > itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing

(believing

> > itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance).

> >

> > This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites

> are

> > the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are

> > created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's

> > benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not

> created

> > by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you

> > acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the

> > impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no

> > apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But

the

> > illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of

> desires

> > desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At

the

> > same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of

> > fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires

> > completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them

> and

> > eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is

> > hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And,

who

> > is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator

> > and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the

victim

> > of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the

> > predator.

> >

> > The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running

relentlessly

> > with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot

> > dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never

judge

> > whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the

rear

> or

> > for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither

> > captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but

remains

> > captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on

> its

> > desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick).

> > The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot

and

> > the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase

> > continues.

> >

> > It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind

> > never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to

> > inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is

tired,

> it

> > may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built

> continues

> > to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel

> rim,

> > the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The

> > mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in

terms

> > of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears.

The

> > same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the

same

> > fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game

> > continues.

> >

> > Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha;

> > mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati.

> >

> > Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana;

> > mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati.

> >

> > Respects.

> >

> > Naga Narayana.

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed

in

> > two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme

> wisdom

> > of the Creator.

> >

> > Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is)

> would

> > lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than

generic

> > parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs,

frogs,

> > and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in

the

> > image of God like the Bible says?

> >

> > When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He

> breathed

> > life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image "

(Genesis

> > 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a

> > tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who

created

> > us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that

> > comprise our universe?

> >

> > The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting

> within

> > all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-194.

The

> > maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated

to

> > be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand

trillion

> > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion

> > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even

one

> > such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross,

> PhD

> > Astrophysics, University of Toronto)

> >

> > The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the

universe,

> let

> > alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small.

Science

> > has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special.

> >

> > How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this:

> While

> > we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even

> though

> > we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all

> > those who are willing to repent and accept it.

> >

> > When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved,

> remember

> > our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all

> > numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many

sparrows. "

> > (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God.

> >

> > Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you

> > through tough times, to be who you are today?

> >

> > yeshu rathenam

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite

> answer....this

> > > way or that way.....

> > > Why not go within and know from experience.......

> > >

> > > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know.....

> > > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi....

> > >

> > > Sushil Jain

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > dear pratap Bhai,

> > >

> > > my humble parnaams ...

> > > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really

> > > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and

> > > That is HIS WILL

> > > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our

> limited

> > > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman...

> > > And there we may Know What is Free Will

> > > my sincere regards..

> > > kuldip Suri

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > Kuldipji is asking:

> > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will?

> > > > whether it truly Exists...?

> > > >

> > > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will!

When

> Our

> > > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms

of

> > > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes

> and

> > > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is

> always

> > > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense.

> > > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity,

> > > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will!

> > > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will

have

> > total

> > > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes!

It

> is

> > > to

> > > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of

> all!

> > > It is

> > > > thus never predetermined because right things are never

> > absolutely

> > > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen:

> > > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence-

> > > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such

> freedom

> > > is

> > > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right

actions

> > are

> > > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person).

> > > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts,

> > > beliefs,

> > > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward.

> Person

> > is

> > > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose

reality

> is

> > > > Mirror!

> > > >

> > > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense

of

> > > being

> > > > an individual, which one is not!

> > > >

> > > > Pratap

> > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear divine souls,,,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > parnaams!

> > > > >

> > > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause

and

> > > effect.

> > > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as

> > > experienced

> > > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan.

> > > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what

happens.

> > > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have

control

> > > over

> > > > > our present actions.

> > > > >

> > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it

> truly

> > > > Exists...?

> > > > >

> > > > > Please provide your insights

> > > > > thanks

> > > > > eternal child.

> > > > > Kuldip Suri>

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Can we really disturb God's plans ?? Are we that powerful ?

When he makes a blueprint to do something, does he leave out grey

areas such that ordinary humans can interefere with them ?

 

sampuran Singh

--------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

There is a choice of action and a wrong choice produces its

consequences.

 

The above line is wrong action produces wrong results. Human blessed

with intellect which animal do not have. Human has gone through

several births from plants to animals and finally got birth as

human. This is said in Geetha, Vivekachudami, Manasha Panchakam, and

by numerous saints, very clearly in Narayaniyam. So the statement

very authentic. That is why human birth is considered extremely

difficult to get. Human has been gifted to raise to divinity or go

to lower births by using the intellect rightly or wrongly. This

choice Bhagavan has clearly given. Animals have no choice, even if

they are slaughtered they remain unaware and helpless. Recent

scientific finding shows they produce certain liquid fearing their

death just about to be slaugtered, but helpless.

All free will is available only to humans in choice of action.

Elevate to divinity or rebirths to suffer. Ultimately one day the

soul reaches GOD. In Geetha Bagavan says, " Aneka Samsiddaya------- "

All chaos suffering violence is not only to humans. It also towards

Pancha boothas, nature, and animals. Those who are involved in it,

is their designed life based on their cause and effects. You cannot

touch or harm the true Baktha of Sri Krishna. This is evident from

so many (100 `s of ) life true history of saints. Yet I give only

few.

 

Adi Sankara was to be beheaded. Was saved. Buddha was to be killed

and was saved. Abiramai Battar was to be hanged. Mother Abirami

appeared and saved. Tukaram was ordered to be executed by Maratha

shivaji. Panduranga saved. Old lady Pittu was to be lashed, but

Bagavan Shiva appeared and saved. Read history of Shena Nayak, Sant

Sakunthala, Baktha Gora, Purandera Doss etc where in Bagavan came as

servant and shown to the world his benevolence of establishing

Dharma.

 

Sri Krishna promise is that when Dharma declines HE will save.

Where is Dharma? Dharma is with Dharmathuma (divine ones). Few

unruly are fighting and why should Bagavan come. Unruly is showing

their might, so Bagavan remains witness only.

Mother Drowpathi was being disrobed and she was crying for help with

elders there. When she lost all hopes and only when she left her one

hand holding her under garment, and raised both hands and called

Bagavan, " Shanka Chakra Ghada Paani Dwaraka nillaya achuda----- " ,

Bagavan gave her clothing and protection. Surely he establishes

Dharma when required, to the righteous person (HIS BAKTHA) HE is not

witness there. HE keeps up HIS promise NOT to unruly elements, bad

one, wicked ones. So please understand clearly HIS wordings and it`s

inner truths. Adharma was at large, with even Bishma, Achariyas,

Kings, brothers, within family, when Sri Krishna was to appear and

start samhar from tender age of few months killing Akasura, Bakasura

etc. Parasurama appeared when all kings were unrighteous. So avatars

are necessary only in case of society at large. That comes as Kalki

Avathar. We cannot plan positively for a week. Bagavan plans are

perfect for millions of years ahead. Our knowledge is very limited

and GOD` s unlimited. Bagavan is said as Purushotaman (Flawless-

pure-benovolent- Karuniya etc)

We create problem and Bagavan comes to rectify, as mother comes to

rescue her children.

B.Sathyanarayan.

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> The questions Kuldipji brought out are the very ones that Sanatana

> Dharma alone has tackled and other faiths failed. In a very

> simplistic way it is explained that God has created all the laws

> under the umbrella of 'Cosmic Intelligence' or Universal

> Consciousness. God has nothing to do with their use and evolution

> of individual entity. It is easy to understand taking the material

> example and extend the logic to the Intelligence level. Sun gives

> us all that is needed to sustain life on earth. Without his

> presence, not a blade of grass grows and if there is no food,

there

> is no life created on sustained. " Annad bhavanti Bhutaani

> prajanayd anna sambhavah .... " from Gita. If I want to expose

> myself to the Sun in California desert continuously for days and

> kill myself with skin cancer, Sun is not responsible for that. He

> gives all that is needed but how we utilize and evolve is our

> (Creatures) responsibility which in varied ways expressed as

> acquired Karma. Since God is only witness, He has no

responsibility

> for how we use/misuse his laws. Again taking another material

> example of pollution, if we create lot of pollution, nature makes

> that place inhabitable and living beings move away to a better

> place. The law of this migration is also provided by Him.

>

> Coming to God's statement that I will be taking up a new

incarnation

> to correct the bad things, we can think in terms of HIM coming up

> with new laws as he is the ONE who proclaims them. For example he

> can take away the SUN from us and leaving the earth completely

> destroyed. But life prospers perhaps in another galaxy. Nature's

> corrective mechanism is a beautiful control system. It takes the

> feedback of the error and corrects it in terms of change of

climate,

> change of seasons etc. as we are able to comprehend. GOD comes in

if

> this corrective mechanism is not working and the error is too

large

> that nature is unable to correct it.

>

> Words have limitations to express. Vedic texts explain the

> fundamentals in different styles and different examples to drive

> home the central point. We need to understand all the statements

> with deeper meaning. If there is an order (Niyata) in the

universe,

> there must be someone (Niyanta) who created that order that is

GOD.

> I am glad to participate in this dialog. It is the only way to

> understand the real strength of our scriptures. In summary, these

> scriptures tell us that the Creation and Evolution both are valid

in

> their own way. One to create the universal laws and the other to

> evolve based on them to realize the laws. This is the purpose of

> life at all levels it appears. Hari OM.

>

> B Vempaty

>

> -

--

> HE watches the kaledoscopic play as created by reflection of My

EGO,

> Physical Laws that HE Created, and My Past Karmas.

> When I see the same event in others life I see the factors at

play,

> choices -right and wrong - they make and the randomness of, or

> devine will in the outcome. When similar things happen in my life,

I

> see it as suffering or triumph, rather than being a witness to

what

> happened.

> May HE lead us from darkness to light.

>

> HEMENDRA PARIKH

> -

-

> All is free-will or else all is destiny.?

>

> " destiny in the rigid sense applies only to the outer being so

long

> as it lives in the Ignorance. What we call destiny is only in fact

> the result of the present condition of the being and the nature

and

> energies it has acumulated in the past acting on each other and

> determining the present attempts and their future results. But as

> soon as one enters the path of spiritual life, this old

> predetermined destiny begins to recede. There comes in a new

factor,

> The Divine Grace....the help of of a higher Divine Force other

than

> the force of Karma....which can lift the sadhak beyond the present

> possibilties of his nature.

> One's spiritual destiny is then the divine election which ensures

> the future. The only doubt is about the vicissitudes of the Path

> and the time to be taken by the passage. It is here that the

> hostile forces playing on the weaknesses of the past nature strive

> to prevent the rapidity of the progress and to postpone the

> fulfillment.

>

> Those who fall, fall not because of the attacks of the vital

forces,

> but because they put themselves on the side of the hostile Force

and

> prefer a vital ambition of desire (ambition,vanity,lust,etc.) to

the

> spiritual siddhi...

>

> (few words complied from Sri aurobindo's letters On Yoga...)

>

> kuldip suri

> -

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > dear divine souls !

> >

> > In life all sorts of things offer themselves. There is a choice

of

> > action and a wrong choice produces its consequences...

> >

> > All is free-will or else all is destiny-- it is not so simple as

> > that... free will and universal determinism is the most knotty

of

> > all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able

> > to solve it.

> >

> > my Questions to respected Naga naryana ji is or any one who

would

> > like to respond..?

> > If world as we see today..chaos, sufferings, violence against

> > humanity as is His Will...Then Why krishna promises

> >

> > " Whenever there is the decline of Dharma and uprising of

> > unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself " (Gita 4:7)..

> > " For the protection of the good, as for the destruction of the

> evil

> > doers, as for the establishment of righteousness, I manifest

> Myself

> > for the enthroning of the Right.I am from age to age. " (Gita

> 4:8)

> >

> > He would simply had not Willed it in that way in the beginning

> > itself? Why to create a problem in first place and then the

coming

> > of Avataras to esteblish righteousness on Earth ? this does

not

> > seem to make sense to me ?

> >

> > The world is manifestation of God..as we see as Cosmic

> Play..but.the

> > Play of Dark forces is Not His Will the Devil or the Undivine

> > Forces who are Dominating today in the Universe could not have

> been

> > HIS WILL.. He has Sanctioned All forces to act in their own Way..

> > but Not Willed IT???

> >

> > Pls clear my doubts being a child groping in the

> > darkness..

> >

> > Is the world we see today IS HIS WILL?

> >

> > my humble parnaams to ALL participating souls in this

> > forum

> >

> > kuldip suri..

> > eternal child

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhaks,

> > > You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan.

> > > GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS.

> > > DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest

Kali

> > yug.

> > > Exact number of years are mentioned.

> > > Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when,

where,

> to

> > > whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma.

> > > Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but

> sometime

> > > fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and

> effect

> > > for several births of a soul which works automatically in

which

> > GOD

> > > remains witness.

> > >

> > > Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS

> (devotees).

> > > Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can

think

> > off.

> > > Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders

to

> > GOD

> > > and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things

> around,

> > > does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS

> > > WITNESS.

> > > Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special

> effort)

> > > for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD

> > > REMAINS WITNESS.

> > >

> > > When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all

> > penance.

> > > When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role -

> > kartha,

> > > doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine

> energy

> > > (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance

that

> > > makes us believe that we are doing.

> > >

> > > This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9

elevated

> > > saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc

> > >

> > > Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier.

> How

> > > can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very

> very

> > > short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses

and

> > you

> > > have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body

> > which

> > > you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if

> you

> > > choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus

> > feet

> > > and live by His plans.

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > Is Life Free-Will or Destiny?

> > >

> > > Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you

> > > breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act

for,

> is

> > > pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way,

one

> > can

> > > always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where

is

> > the

> > > free will here?

> > >

> > > Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act

> > nothing

> > > will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my

> > > presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to

> > > adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore,

I

> am

> > > the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason

for

> > > whatever it is.

> > >

> > > Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One

is

> me

> > > who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of

> > > environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who

> > > insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything

that

> > > has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect

> their

> > > belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental

> factors

> > > govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever

> you

> > > think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment

> once

> > > upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to

> protect

> > > their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting

> themselves

> > > because they believe that they are their beliefs.

> > >

> > > One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial

> > > residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding

> > > individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument

that

> > > every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in

its

> > own

> > > sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two

> ideologies

> > > because they are both correct.

> > >

> > > Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be

both

> > > correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really

> > > opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each

other

> in

> > > the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny

is

> > > free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the

same

> > > sprouting as different in our perception in a singular

fashion.

> > Just

> > > because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it

does

> not

> > > exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The

> > front,

> > > the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny,

…

> > they

> > > are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have!

> > >

> > > There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject

> and

> > > environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The

> known

> > is

> > > what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory

approval.

> > The

> > > knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum

> that

> > I

> > > have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable

is

> the

> > > one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum

that I

> > > possess or I am blessed with.

> > >

> > > Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it

is

> > not

> > > explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for

one's

> > > benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit

to

> me

> > > need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They

> > > obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will.

> Such

> > > people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs

> hover

> > > around their desires. Their very individual identity is the

set

> of

> > > their desires.

> > >

> > > Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many

> > > reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these

> knowns –

> > > ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear;

(2)

> > > these knowns elude us by their continuously changing

attributes;

> > and

> > > (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still

> > unhappy

> > > in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are

known;

> > (4)

> > > No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5)

no

> > > known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to

> > > advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The

> > > Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their

actions

> > and

> > > beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual

identity

> is

> > > the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears

they

> > > start believing that some unknown force protects them.

> > >

> > > We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are

and

> > > what our environment is and insist that the universe is that.

One

> > > who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and

refuse

> to

> > > care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are

> unknown

> > > and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life

is

> > made

> > > of Free Will.

> > >

> > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I

> am,

> > > all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have

> > > accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is

the

> > > free will since the very definition of my very identity is

> nothing

> > > but a bunch of environmental stimuli?

> > >

> > > We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in

life

> and

> > > declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of

> life.

> > > One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all

> > > respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and

> refuse

> > > to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is

> governed

> > by

> > > ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good

> reason,

> > > what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will

tend

> to

> > > insist that life is made of Destiny.

> > >

> > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I

> am,

> > > all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created

> within

> > my

> > > cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the

> > > environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and

> > > generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can

have

> > > identical perception and experience in any event with identical

> > > characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated

> internally

> > > based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire

> that

> > > brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to

> make

> > > sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy

the

> > > result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and

> > > acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where

is

> > > the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very

> > > definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances?

> > >

> > > " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running

> > > together to make this life happen. "

> > >

> > > There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try

to

> > > corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement –

> > > letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are

> ever

> > > ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant

> > > tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise

> > > oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain

> such

> > > illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they

are

> > > distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each

> other.

> > > Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur?

> > > Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to

own

> the

> > > positive side of all the events since they are identified with

> > their

> > > positivity in the first place – one who is identified with

> > > positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on

> > oneself.

> > > The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take

> the

> > > altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the

> > judgment

> > > that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims

itself

> to

> > > be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for

what

> it

> > > does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself

is

> > > the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised

> its

> > > freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever

> faced

> > > it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the

> > > destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by

> > that –

> > > if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she

is

> > > not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be

> > > surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation.

> This

> > > tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its

ignorance

> > > further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the

> > > arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes

and

> > > dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more

> > > vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the

> > ignorance

> > > one is eclipsed with.

> > >

> > > Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above

> > argument

> > > lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying

> the

> > > two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of

> both

> > > polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who

> seeks

> > > the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is

> > bound

> > > to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above.

However,

> > one

> > > who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every

> event

> > > is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is

> always

> > on

> > > one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another.

> Shreya's

> > > focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has

a

> > > chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these

> > > wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the

> > > intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their

> > inertia.

> > > Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to

maintain

> > our

> > > balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by

reducing

> > the

> > > inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in

opposite

> > > directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating

> one

> > > while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by

> > > letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other

> letting

> > > the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya

balances

> > > the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces

> their

> > > pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to

> become

> > > one with the axle eventually.

> > >

> > > At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what

you

> > > say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for

> > miseries –

> > > after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to

> pure

> > > Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you

> have

> > no

> > > say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is

> > anyway

> > > destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you

> > cannot

> > > be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have

> absolute

> > > desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?!

> Then

> > > how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in

> > > isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when

> your

> > > very argument is a mixture of the two???!!!

> > >

> > > No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are

> > mutually

> > > exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other

is

> > > bound to be FALSE!!

> > >

> > > No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive

of

> > each

> > > other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn

> > > Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own

> > > approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to

sustain

> > > itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing

> (believing

> > > itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as

ignorance).

> > >

> > > This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two

opposites

> > are

> > > the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are

> > > created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's

> > > benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not

> > created

> > > by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how

you

> > > acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the

> > > impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is

no

> > > apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But

> the

> > > illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of

> > desires

> > > desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At

> the

> > > same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of

> > > fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its

desires

> > > completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand

them

> > and

> > > eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it

is

> > > hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game?

And,

> who

> > > is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the

predator

> > > and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the

> victim

> > > of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the

> > > predator.

> > >

> > > The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running

> relentlessly

> > > with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot

> > > dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never

> judge

> > > whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the

> rear

> > or

> > > for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither

> > > captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but

> remains

> > > captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance

on

> > its

> > > desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies

(stick).

> > > The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the

carrot

> and

> > > the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase

> > > continues.

> > >

> > > It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel …

mind

> > > never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to

> > > inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is

> tired,

> > it

> > > may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built

> > continues

> > > to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the

wheel

> > rim,

> > > the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The

> > > mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in

> terms

> > > of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears.

> The

> > > same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the

> same

> > > fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game

> > > continues.

> > >

> > > Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha;

> > > mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati.

> > >

> > > Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana;

> > > mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati.

> > >

> > > Respects.

> > >

> > > Naga Narayana.

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed

> in

> > > two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme

> > wisdom

> > > of the Creator.

> > >

> > > Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there

is)

> > would

> > > lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than

> generic

> > > parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs,

> frogs,

> > > and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in

> the

> > > image of God like the Bible says?

> > >

> > > When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He

> > breathed

> > > life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image "

> (Genesis

> > > 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given

a

> > > tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who

> created

> > > us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies

that

> > > comprise our universe?

> > >

> > > The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting

> > within

> > > all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-

194.

> The

> > > maximum possible number of planets in the universe is

estimated

> to

> > > be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand

> trillion

> > > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion

> > > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even

> one

> > > such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh

Ross,

> > PhD

> > > Astrophysics, University of Toronto)

> > >

> > > The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the

> universe,

> > let

> > > alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small.

> Science

> > > has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special.

> > >

> > > How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in

this:

> > While

> > > we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even

> > though

> > > we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to

all

> > > those who are willing to repent and accept it.

> > >

> > > When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved,

> > remember

> > > our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all

> > > numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many

> sparrows. "

> > > (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God.

> > >

> > > Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping

you

> > > through tough times, to be who you are today?

> > >

> > > yeshu rathenam

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite

> > answer....this

> > > > way or that way.....

> > > > Why not go within and know from experience.......

> > > >

> > > > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know.....

> > > > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi....

> > > >

> > > > Sushil Jain

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > dear pratap Bhai,

> > > >

> > > > my humble parnaams ...

> > > > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will

Really

> > > > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and

> > > > That is HIS WILL

> > > > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our

> > limited

> > > > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman...

> > > > And there we may Know What is Free Will

> > > > my sincere regards..

> > > > kuldip Suri

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > >

> > > > > Kuldipji is asking:

> > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will?

> > > > > whether it truly Exists...?

> > > > >

> > > > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will!

> When

> > Our

> > > > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in

terms

> of

> > > > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears,

likes

> > and

> > > > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is

> > always

> > > > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense.

> > > > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity,

> > > > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will!

> > > > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will

> have

> > > total

> > > > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one

likes!

> It

> > is

> > > > to

> > > > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being

of

> > all!

> > > > It is

> > > > > thus never predetermined because right things are never

> > > absolutely

> > > > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen:

> > > > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence-

> > > > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such

> > freedom

> > > > is

> > > > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right

> actions

> > > are

> > > > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person).

> > > > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts,

> > > > beliefs,

> > > > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward.

> > Person

> > > is

> > > > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose

> reality

> > is

> > > > > Mirror!

> > > > >

> > > > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false

sense

> of

> > > > being

> > > > > an individual, which one is not!

> > > > >

> > > > > Pratap

> > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear divine souls,,,

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > parnaams!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause

> and

> > > > effect.

> > > > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as

> > > > experienced

> > > > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan.

> > > > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what

> happens.

> > > > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have

> control

> > > > over

> > > > > > our present actions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether

it

> > truly

> > > > > Exists...?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please provide your insights

> > > > > > thanks

> > > > > > eternal child.

> > > > > > Kuldip Suri>

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>