some of my questions

July 16, 2008

Dear Satish,

Some of my questions:

In the 32nd sloka, Lakshmidhara gives the mantroddhara of Panchadasi and says

that Shodasi is hidden as Rama Bija. Shri Kameswara Suri is of different view.

Kaivalyasrama indicates this sloka to be the Haadi-vidya. This is siva-tattva

pratipadaka vidya. And hence, Moksha Pradayini Vidya.

In the 33rd sloka, smaram, yonim, lakshmim is interpreted as Klim, Hrim and

Srim. By placing these 3 before the Kaadi Vidya of the previous stanza and

meditating on Devi, the Upasaka enjoys Maha Bhoga. This is sakthi-tattva

pratipadaka vidya and hence Bhoga Pradayini.

The chinta-mani-guna-nibaddha-kshara-layaah, in first case is attaining

liberation in the Sabda-Brahman which is Chit Kala and in the second case is the

Japamaala containing the beads of gems. The

â€œsurabhi-ghrita-dharaahuti-sataihâ€ in the first case implies Karma Phala

Tyaga in the form of Ahuti in Jnana Agni (Siva Agni) which is Antaryaga and in

the second case it is Bahiryaga.

â€œTritayam Aadauâ€ implies that without disturbing the Vidya, replace the

first letters with Ka, E, I is the hridaya of acharya.

Some of my questions:

There are 32 interpretations of Saundaryalahari. Of these, the

interpretations of Lakshidhara, Kaivalyasrama and Kameswara Suri are

praamanikas. Now, why the differences among these and who knows the Acharya

Hridaya?

Why Lakshmidhara takes only 25 tattvas whereas in Shakta Advaita 36 principles

are taken?

If Haadi Vidya is Moksha Pradayayini, then why the adage â€œVidyaanaam Kaadi

Uttamaâ€. Just because of the presence of 4 â€œImâ€ in Kaadi Vidya. Well

such interpretations are also found in Haadi.

If Haadi Vidya is Moksha Pradayayini, then what is the importance of Shodasi.

Well, if Shodasi confers liberation, why then Maha Shodasi, Guru Traya,

Mahapaduka, Atma Paduka, Nirvana Sundari blah blahâ€¦â€¦â€¦. Mantras.

Why the Diksha Nama viz â€œanandanathaâ€ is conferred in Samaya Tradition

which is Kaula. Anandanatha finds its roots in Natha Tradition which is a Kaula

Parampara. Nava nathas from Matyendranatha till Nivritti are some of the siddhas

of Natha Tradition who propagated Kaula. The word â€œNathaâ€ finds its root in

Siva Purana and Siva is addressed as â€œNathaâ€. Who and why this Natha

Tradition is being coupled with Samaya?

One of the advanced Upasaka of Srividya who is the Tarka, Vedanta guru of Shri

Bharati Tirtha Swamigal and who happens to be the close friend of my gurunatha

told me that Lalitha Trishati held prominence rather than Lalitha Sahasranama in

earlier days. May be LS is a gupta or Trishati has Kaadi Vidya Uddhara?

Shankara wrote commentary on Trishati not on LS. Why? All sorts of stories

that Mother forbade Sankara from writing commentary on LS and that Bhaskara

would come to fulfill the mission are a fabricated one.

The Gurupaduka Puja of Sankara / Pada Puja are performed with Lalitha

Trishati. It was in recent times that LS came into prominence. These were the

words advanced upasakas of Sringeri.

The chakrarchana at Ramana Ashram where Srichakra has been installed, puja is

done as per trishati but not with LS. This was the direction of Bhagavan and

Ganapati Muni.

Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Join them now.

July 22, 2008

, venkata sriram

<sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

>

> Shankara wrote commentary on Trishati not on LS. Why? All sorts

>of stories that Mother forbade Sankara from writing commentary on LS

>and that Bhaskara would come to fulfill the mission are a fabricated

>one.

There is some probability that Adi Shankara never wrote the trishatI

bhAShya.

If you look at AchArya's prapan~chasAra, the 15 lettered mantra

referred to in this bhAShya doesnt find mention there.

It doesnt matter much though, because teh bhAShya is a great work

(even if colored here and there)and not worth discussing this at

length here.

>

> The Gurupaduka Puja of Sankara / Pada Puja are performed with

Lalitha Trishati. It was in recent times that LS came into

>prominence. These were the words advanced upasakas of Sringeri.

This maybe so. Not too sure on this.

>even after receiving shodashi, if they still think of prayogas, they

>are not fit to be called as teachers (IMHO)

:-) I think you made this statement with an explicit intention to

insult.

Anyway I am responding to this not to retaliate but to drive home a

point that I initially brought up in this thread.

The shankara vijaya-s mention Adi Shankara performing various prayoga-

s during his travels. Likewise of other great teachers including

vidyAraNya, bhAskara rAya etc. Then by your statement one of the

following should be true given that Adi Shankara is a great teacher.

1)Adi shankara did not have ShoDhasI

2)Your statement above applies to Adi Shankara and other great

teachers too? This option is ruled out because we both agree that Adi

Shankara is a great teacher. So what is our choice here? :-)

The only thing that I wanted to say is that performing these prayoga-

s is not considered prohibited nor was it ever used as a yardstick

for spiritual progress. That is all I wanted to say.

Let us cool down a bit and we will discuss again. I am responsible

for all this heated condition I think. Lol.

July 22, 2008

My intention is not to point fingers against anybody.

I have listened to several such scholar who questioned the sankara.

I would not name one such scholar who questioned the madhaviya

sankara and stated that it is a work in 17th-18th century and not by

Vidyaranya. That saundaryalahari is not written by sankara but by

somebody else. Whether sankara ascended kamakoti pita or sringeri

pita? Even your point that Trishati commentary was not by Sankara?

Such issues are useless for us in the path of upasana. We should

respect the mula dakshinamnaya pita parampara and all the jagatgurus

who ascend the throne of sringeri are on par with Sankara. We have to

respect their words and emulate them. Sankara Advaita is the royal

path shown by Acharya Sankara.

Any negative remark against sringeri and acharya sankara's authority

would not be tolerated by me.

Sankara and his band of monks definitely had the upasana of shodashi

which they never used for selfish ends or for prayogas. It is well

known fact that nrisimha mantra is the saviour of sankara most of the

times which was used by Padmapada. I have studied guruvamsa kavya and

nowhere acharyas of sringeri used the shodasi prayogas.

So, let us bow humbly to the acharya parampara of sringeri and

silently pursue our upasana with gurupadukas of sankara on our head.

shumbam bhuyaat....

with regards,

sriram

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , venkata sriram

> <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:

> >

> > Shankara wrote commentary on Trishati not on LS. Why? All

sorts

> >of stories that Mother forbade Sankara from writing commentary on

LS

> >and that Bhaskara would come to fulfill the mission are a

fabricated

> >one.

>

> There is some probability that Adi Shankara never wrote the

trishatI

> bhAShya.

> If you look at AchArya's prapan~chasAra, the 15 lettered mantra

> referred to in this bhAShya doesnt find mention there.

> It doesnt matter much though, because teh bhAShya is a great work

> (even if colored here and there)and not worth discussing this at

> length here.

>

> >

> > The Gurupaduka Puja of Sankara / Pada Puja are performed with

> Lalitha Trishati. It was in recent times that LS came into

> >prominence. These were the words advanced upasakas of Sringeri.

>

> This maybe so. Not too sure on this.

>

> >even after receiving shodashi, if they still think of prayogas,

they

> >are not fit to be called as teachers (IMHO)

>

> :-) I think you made this statement with an explicit intention to

> insult.

> Anyway I am responding to this not to retaliate but to drive home

a

> point that I initially brought up in this thread.

> The shankara vijaya-s mention Adi Shankara performing various

prayoga-

> s during his travels. Likewise of other great teachers including

> vidyAraNya, bhAskara rAya etc. Then by your statement one of the

> following should be true given that Adi Shankara is a great teacher.

> 1)Adi shankara did not have ShoDhasI

> 2)Your statement above applies to Adi Shankara and other great

> teachers too? This option is ruled out because we both agree that

Adi

> Shankara is a great teacher. So what is our choice here? :-)

>

> The only thing that I wanted to say is that performing these

prayoga-

> s is not considered prohibited nor was it ever used as a yardstick

> for spiritual progress. That is all I wanted to say.

>

> Let us cool down a bit and we will discuss again. I am responsible

> for all this heated condition I think. Lol.

>

July 22, 2008

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

> Even your point that Trishati commentary was not by Sankara?

There are few who consider so.

>

> Such issues are useless for us in the path of upasana.

This is where I beg to differ. For a complete understanding we need

to study and look all aspects. Ofcourse each one has their preference

when it comes to this.

> We should

> respect the mula dakshinamnaya pita parampara and all the

jagatgurus

> who ascend the throne of sringeri are on par with Sankara.

Nothing against this and above statements... As long as one doesnt

make irrational or illogical statements citing authority.

>

> Sankara and his band of monks definitely had the upasana of

shodashi

> which they never used for selfish ends or for prayogas.

We dont know that conclusively unless we know somebody who knows each

and every detail of Shankara's life.

> I have studied guruvamsa kavya and

> nowhere acharyas of sringeri used the shodasi prayogas.

Biographies and such works are just outlines. They do not tell us

what people did each and every day and all incidents.

July 22, 2008

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

> > Even your point that Trishati commentary was not by Sankara?

>

> There are few who consider so.

>

WHO ARE THEY? CAN YOU NAME THEM? WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS?

> >

> > Such issues are useless for us in the path of upasana.

>

> This is where I beg to differ. For a complete understanding we need

> to study and look all aspects. Ofcourse each one has their

preference

> when it comes to this.

ALL ASPECTS LIKE WHAT? WHAT WILL YOU DO BY KNOWING SUCH THINGS?

>

> > We should

> > respect the mula dakshinamnaya pita parampara and all the

> jagatgurus

> > who ascend the throne of sringeri are on par with Sankara.

>

> Nothing against this and above statements... As long as one doesnt

> make irrational or illogical statements citing authority.

>

> >

> > Sankara and his band of monks definitely had the upasana of

> shodashi

> > which they never used for selfish ends or for prayogas.

>

> We dont know that conclusively unless we know somebody who knows

each

> and every detail of Shankara's life.

SANKARA VIJAYA AND THE WORDS THAT IS COMING FROM THE SRINGERI

PARAMPARA IS THE PROOF.

>

> > I have studied guruvamsa kavya and

> > nowhere acharyas of sringeri used the shodasi prayogas.

>

> Biographies and such works are just outlines. They do not tell us

> what people did each and every day and all incidents.

I KNOW SEVERAL SUCH PRAYOGAS THAT WERE RESORTED TO BY SRINGERI

ACHARYAS. THEY USED MOSTLY NRISIMHA, TIRASKARINI & MAHA-VARAHI

>

July 22, 2008

Shriram:

Shrikula itself belongs to the Shaiva Tantram derived from the old

Kula system which belongs to the Bhairava stream. Trika may actually

be closest to the old Kula system from which these Vidyas came. In

fact Anandabhairava is the Bhairava in this Shrikula system. Those who

known this bhairava mantra will know its long history. There are other

Shaiva streams like Siddhanta which were extremely powerful (I am not

familiar with their Sadhana aspects). The original formalizers of

these systems came from a Smarta background (actually not just men

also women) but they adopted these systems completely and became

sectarian.

You mention " Kashmir Trika " . This is an inaccurate term. Trika had a

major development in Dravidadesh including followers of Abhinava's

Anuttara system. But for some reason people do not seem to known much

about that though most people active on this list appear to be from

TamilN.

If you look into Smarta handbooks like the Mantra Mahodadhi (there are

2 capters on Shrividya). The second concerning Shodashi gives many

viniyogas like conquering the world, destroying enemies, driving

BhUtas and PishAchas, getting lot of money, peace of mind,

vashikarana, good speech,success in love and magical abilities. This

is what learned Smarta Pandits were thinking in 1500-1600. Your

criticism does not appear very informed!

May be someone interested in the concept of Moksha or achieving it

might actually get it all in one beautiful package the Bhagavadgita.

You saying knowing the development of a system does not matter to

Upasana. I think this is a limited view because you may miss many

deeper connections due to the ignorance.

respectfully,

-RR

July 23, 2008

2008/7/22 rajita_rajvasishth <rajita_rajvasishth:

>

> You mention " Kashmir Trika " . This is an inaccurate term. Trika had a

> major development in Dravidadesh including followers of Abhinava's

> Anuttara system. But for some reason people do not seem to known much

> about that though most people active on this list appear to be from

> TamilN.

Can you explain this in a little more detail? It is known that

Kashmiri acharya-s were the early pioneers of the Siddhanta tantric

tradition in the deep south. But I am not aware of Abhinavagupta's

system having had any presence in TN. Sadhana apart, there seem to be

major philosophical differences between the Siddhanta tantrics and the

followers of Abhinavagupta's system.

July 24, 2008

Respected Rajitha,

My prostrations to your feet. I have a great respect for your

learning and your upasana. This is just a short rejoinder for your

mail. Please donot think otherwise. Mine is like showing a camphor to

the blazing sun. You have every right to criticise me if i am wrong.

Upasana of Vak was the form of worship that evolved into Srikula.

This Srikula is also called Srouta Srividya which basically stresses

on Varnasrama Dharma.

Apart from the Rg vedic suktas like Sri, Durga, Vak, Ratri,

Asyavasya, Aranyani, the Vyakarana sastra in the form of Panini

Ashtadhyayi and Maheswara Sutras (Maheswara's Aphorisms with the

commentary of Nandikeswara and Upamanyu) played the vital role in the

concept of Srividya.

The number of varnas that are deduced from 14 sutras of Maheswara are

concluded to be 43 in number (including Ha). In sabda brahmopasana,

this 43 varnas are taken to be the 43 angles in Sriyantra. If

Sriyantra is visualized as the Embodiment of Vak, then the entire

Sabda Sastra with 43 varnas are the 43 angles. Panini and Katyayana

Vararuchi visualized Sriyantra as an embodiment of Vak and its

upasana as Sabda Brahmopasana.

The famous mantra which forms the basis of Srividya Upasana is having

43 words. They are:

" Chatushpada Gayatri " + " Mrityunjaya Mantra " + " 1st rik of Durga

Sukta "

These three riks combined becomes " Ashtottara Satakshara Gayatri

Mantra " which has been extolled in Tripuratapini Upanishad. The

Upaasya Devata of this Vidya is Jatavedas in the form of Agni and its

effulgence in the form of Sri or Durga.

The Mantra Sanketa, Yantra Senketa and Puja Sanketa of

this " Satakshara Gayatri " is the Panchadashakshari Mantra, Sriyantra

and Tantra.

Tantra is the gross manifestation of sublime thoughts of seers who

were adept in Srouta Kanda which eventually gave rise to Srouta

Srividya. This Srouta Srividya gave rise two schools of thought 1)

Haadi Vidya 2) Kaadi Vidya.

Because of the prominence of the upasana of Agni in Sruthi and in

Satakshari Vidya, the upaasya devata of Panchadasi is Chit which is

the form of Agni and Vak.

Haadi Vidya basically stresses on the Chit Kala in the Daharakasa as

indicated by the prathama kuta of the vidya. Ha denotes daharakasa,

Sa denotes Chandra kala. This Sa is tri-bija swarupa which includes

in itself " sa, la, ka " . Sa denotes Saraswathi, La denotes Lakshmi

and Ka denotes Kali.

Whereas, Kaadi Vidya basically stresses on the Shat Chakra Bhedana.

The 1st kuta of this Vidya indicates the Kula Kundalini Mantra

represented by (Ka E I La). Initially, the upasaka visualizes the

entire universe with Bhoga Drishti (for the purpose of enjoyment and

gratification). But eventually, as he proceeds forward in the

upasana, because of the presence of Kamakala in the 1st kuta, the

Bhoga drishti gets converted into Yoga Drishti. Longing for

liberation rises in him and he is thus fit to receive the Shodasi.

And thus Shodasi is conferred. And hence Kaadi Vidya is called Iha-

Para Saukhya Dayini (Bhukti-Mukthi Pradayini).

As per Secondary Source (not mine), the Kali Kula emerged as a mark

of revolt against Srikula due to the importance of Varna Asrama.

KAALI KULA ATTACKED VARNASRAMA AND ACCEPTED THE RITUALS THAT WERE

PROHIBITED BY SRIKULA. AND THUS VAMA CAME INTO PICTURE. These 2

schools spread itself geographically. Kali kula became popular in

Northern and Eastern India whereas Srikula became popular in Southern

India.

DURING THIS PROCESS OF EVOLUTION OF KALI KULA, SOME OF THE PRAYOGAS

WITH SATTVIKA MANTRAS WERE COINED TO DISSUADE THE SADHAKA FROM VARNA

ASHRAMA. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION BUT OF A VERY ADVANCED

SRIVIDYOPASAKA WHO WROTE A WONDERFUL WORK ON TANTRA (UNFORTUNATELY I

DONOT REMEMBER HIS NAME). SO, PROBABLY THE SHODASI PRAYOGAS HAVE

SPRUNG UP IN THE SIMILAR FASHION.

The great smartha Shri Appayya Dikshitar mentions that one who is

Atma Kamah (one who longs for atmasaakshaatkara) is the Aaptha

Kamah. And only he is fit to receive the Srividya Diksha. He

further says that " Sa-kaama Srividya Upasana " is Vama and " Nish-kaama

Srividya Upasana " is Dakshina which should be accepted by Sroutha

Srividya School of Thought. Moreover, he also mentions that one

SHOULD NOT SNUB OR CRITICISE the " Sa-Kaama Srividya Upasana " because

it suits the Mandaadhikaaris.

As regards Siddhanta Saiva in Southern India, it is more tilted

towards Dwaita Philosophy with the stress given to Panchakshari

Mantra whereas pertaining to the Saiva of North it is of Monistic in

nature. Shri Meykanda Deva belonged to the Siddhanta Saiva Sect.

His 12 sutras on Siddhanta Saiva emphasizes on certain points of

Yoga, Bhakti and Panchakshari Japa.

With regards,

Sriram

, " rajita_rajvasishth "

<rajita_rajvasishth wrote:

>

> Shriram:

> Shrikula itself belongs to the Shaiva Tantram derived from the old

> Kula system which belongs to the Bhairava stream. Trika may actually

> be closest to the old Kula system from which these Vidyas came. In

> fact Anandabhairava is the Bhairava in this Shrikula system. Those

who

> known this bhairava mantra will know its long history. There are

other

> Shaiva streams like Siddhanta which were extremely powerful (I am

not

> familiar with their Sadhana aspects). The original formalizers of

> these systems came from a Smarta background (actually not just men

> also women) but they adopted these systems completely and became

> sectarian.

>

> You mention " Kashmir Trika " . This is an inaccurate term. Trika had a

> major development in Dravidadesh including followers of Abhinava's

> Anuttara system. But for some reason people do not seem to known

much

> about that though most people active on this list appear to be from

> TamilN.

>

> If you look into Smarta handbooks like the Mantra Mahodadhi (there

are

> 2 capters on Shrividya). The second concerning Shodashi gives many

> viniyogas like conquering the world, destroying enemies, driving

> BhUtas and PishAchas, getting lot of money, peace of mind,

> vashikarana, good speech,success in love and magical abilities. This

> is what learned Smarta Pandits were thinking in 1500-1600. Your

> criticism does not appear very informed!

>

> May be someone interested in the concept of Moksha or achieving it

> might actually get it all in one beautiful package the Bhagavadgita.

>

> You saying knowing the development of a system does not matter to

> Upasana. I think this is a limited view because you may miss many

> deeper connections due to the ignorance.

> respectfully,

> -RR

>

July 24, 2008

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

>

> Upasana of Vak was the form of worship that evolved into Srikula.

> This Srikula is also called Srouta Srividya which basically

stresses

> on Varnasrama Dharma.

Can you give references to the term shrouta shrIvidya?

Where did you come across this term?

Some shrIkula texts defy varNashrama dharma too so above statement

may not be accurate.

> The famous mantra which forms the basis of Srividya Upasana is

having

> 43 words. They are:

>

> " Chatushpada Gayatri " + " Mrityunjaya Mantra " + " 1st rik of Durga

> Sukta "

>

> These three riks combined becomes " Ashtottara Satakshara Gayatri

> Mantra " which has been extolled in Tripuratapini Upanishad. The

> Upaasya Devata of this Vidya is Jatavedas in the form of Agni and

its

> effulgence in the form of Sri or Durga.

>

> The Mantra Sanketa, Yantra Senketa and Puja Sanketa of

> this " Satakshara Gayatri " is the Panchadashakshari Mantra,

Sriyantra

> and Tantra.

This maybe a later day opinion like in teh late medieval times.

>

> Tantra is the gross manifestation of sublime thoughts of seers who

> were adept in Srouta Kanda which eventually gave rise to Srouta

> Srividya. This Srouta Srividya gave rise two schools of thought 1)

> Haadi Vidya 2) Kaadi Vidya.

Like before I would liek to ask for any references for teh term

shrouta shrIvidya and it dividing into kAdi hAdi.

> Because of the prominence of the upasana of Agni in Sruthi and in

> Satakshari Vidya, the upaasya devata of Panchadasi is Chit which is

> the form of Agni and Vak.

Why this urge to mix up everything?

> Longing for

> liberation rises in him and he is thus fit to receive the Shodasi.

> And thus Shodasi is conferred.

Same stuff repeated over.

> And hence Kaadi Vidya is called Iha-

> Para Saukhya Dayini (Bhukti-Mukthi Pradayini).

Like panchakshari, ashtakshari, and other mantras?

> As per Secondary Source (not mine), the Kali Kula emerged as a mark

> of revolt against Srikula due to the importance of Varna Asrama.

Please see the first statement of this reply. I see no evidence of

shrIkula and kAlikula being opposed to each other. We need some

reference for this. It is hard to accept something unheard of and

something unlikely whithout any type fo refernce or basis.

Ex: What if I said kAdi and hAdi made an alliance and deafeated sAdi

which is why we listen more about ka and ha but less about sa. I mean

it is just...

> KAALI KULA ATTACKED VARNASRAMA AND ACCEPTED THE RITUALS THAT WERE

> PROHIBITED BY SRIKULA. AND THUS VAMA CAME INTO PICTURE.

I think these are just baseless. If there is evidence I will change

my opinion.

> These 2

> schools spread itself geographically. Kali kula became popular in

> Northern and Eastern India whereas Srikula became popular in

Southern

> India.

Well shrIkula is popular in Northern parts too.

> DURING THIS PROCESS OF EVOLUTION OF KALI KULA, SOME OF THE PRAYOGAS

> WITH SATTVIKA MANTRAS WERE COINED TO DISSUADE THE SADHAKA FROM

VARNA

> ASHRAMA.

What!? So prayoga-s are created just like that out of some magic bag?

And a prayoga to dissuade someone from varNAshrama? Does this make

*any* sense in the first place?

> THIS IS NOT MY OPINION BUT OF A VERY ADVANCED

> SRIVIDYOPASAKA WHO WROTE A WONDERFUL WORK ON TANTRA (UNFORTUNATELY

I

> DONOT REMEMBER HIS NAME). SO, PROBABLY THE SHODASI PRAYOGAS HAVE

> SPRUNG UP IN THE SIMILAR FASHION.

We should all learn to let go of things at some point rather than

justify our false opinions at whatever cost. I will say nothing else

on this. i am reminded of the thread on khaDga.

> The great smartha Shri Appayya Dikshitar mentions that one who is

> Atma Kamah (one who longs for atmasaakshaatkara) is the Aaptha

> Kamah. And only he is fit to receive the Srividya Diksha. He

> further says that " Sa-kaama Srividya Upasana " is Vama and " Nish-

kaama

> Srividya Upasana " is Dakshina which should be accepted by Sroutha

> Srividya School of Thought.

I would like to see a reference for this. Either Appaya is

misunderstood or misquoted I feel. This sort of distinction between

vAmA and dakShina is inaccurate. One will find many sa-kAma elements

in dakShiNachAra too.

> As regards Siddhanta Saiva in Southern India, it is more tilted

> towards Dwaita Philosophy with the stress given to Panchakshari

> Mantra whereas pertaining to the Saiva of North it is of Monistic

in

> nature.

Shri Meykanda Deva belonged to the Siddhanta Saiva Sect.

> His 12 sutras on Siddhanta Saiva emphasizes on certain points of

> Yoga, Bhakti and Panchakshari Japa.

This is a very uninformed view of shaiva schools.One has to write a

long essay to rectify the inaccuracies in the above statements.

I dont have time for that. I only request that when we make

statements like these we should use caution to avoid making

inaccurate statements, because many people read these forums and we

will be responsible for spreading false and inaccurate info.

Regards

July 24, 2008

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > Upasana of Vak was the form of worship that evolved into

Srikula.

> > This Srikula is also called Srouta Srividya which basically

> stresses

> > on Varnasrama Dharma.

>

> Can you give references to the term shrouta shrIvidya?

> Where did you come across this term?

The srouta rituals that involve agnishtoma and other srouta yagas

eventually gave way to srividya among smartas. Srividya is also a

form of agni yajana that involves oblations in siva agni. The upasana

among these smartas were termed as srouta srividya that yajana.

Though the term is not in vogue it was used among some of the smarta

families in andhra desa (as told my Brahmasri Mudigonda Venkatarama

Shastrigal - a hardcore srouthi / a srividya upasaka from

Chandrasekhara Bharati)

>

> Some shrIkula texts defy varNashrama dharma too so above statement

> may not be accurate.

>

May be due to inter-mixing of people due to alliances...

>

> > The famous mantra which forms the basis of Srividya Upasana is

> having

> > 43 words. They are:

> >

> > " Chatushpada Gayatri " + " Mrityunjaya Mantra " + " 1st rik of Durga

> > Sukta "

> >

> > These three riks combined becomes " Ashtottara Satakshara Gayatri

> > Mantra " which has been extolled in Tripuratapini Upanishad. The

> > Upaasya Devata of this Vidya is Jatavedas in the form of Agni and

> its

> > effulgence in the form of Sri or Durga.

> >

> > The Mantra Sanketa, Yantra Senketa and Puja Sanketa of

> > this " Satakshara Gayatri " is the Panchadashakshari Mantra,

> Sriyantra

> > and Tantra.

>

> This maybe a later day opinion like in teh late medieval times.

>

> >

> > Tantra is the gross manifestation of sublime thoughts of seers

who

> > were adept in Srouta Kanda which eventually gave rise to Srouta

> > Srividya. This Srouta Srividya gave rise two schools of thought

1)

> > Haadi Vidya 2) Kaadi Vidya.

>

> Like before I would liek to ask for any references for teh term

> shrouta shrIvidya and it dividing into kAdi hAdi.

>

> > Because of the prominence of the upasana of Agni in Sruthi and in

> > Satakshari Vidya, the upaasya devata of Panchadasi is Chit which

is

> > the form of Agni and Vak.

>

> Why this urge to mix up everything?

Nothing mixing.. This was the earlier form of upasana

>

> > Longing for

> > liberation rises in him and he is thus fit to receive the

Shodasi.

> > And thus Shodasi is conferred.

>

> Same stuff repeated over.

>

> > And hence Kaadi Vidya is called Iha-

> > Para Saukhya Dayini (Bhukti-Mukthi Pradayini).

>

> Like panchakshari, ashtakshari, and other mantras?

>

> > As per Secondary Source (not mine), the Kali Kula emerged as a

mark

> > of revolt against Srikula due to the importance of Varna Asrama.

>

> Please see the first statement of this reply. I see no evidence

of

> shrIkula and kAlikula being opposed to each other. We need some

> reference for this. It is hard to accept something unheard of and

> something unlikely whithout any type fo refernce or basis.

>

> Ex: What if I said kAdi and hAdi made an alliance and deafeated

sAdi

> which is why we listen more about ka and ha but less about sa. I

mean

> it is just...

>

> > KAALI KULA ATTACKED VARNASRAMA AND ACCEPTED THE RITUALS THAT WERE

> > PROHIBITED BY SRIKULA. AND THUS VAMA CAME INTO PICTURE.

>

> I think these are just baseless. If there is evidence I will

change

> my opinion.

>

> > These 2

> > schools spread itself geographically. Kali kula became popular

in

> > Northern and Eastern India whereas Srikula became popular in

> Southern

> > India.

>

> Well shrIkula is popular in Northern parts too.

>

> > DURING THIS PROCESS OF EVOLUTION OF KALI KULA, SOME OF THE

PRAYOGAS

> > WITH SATTVIKA MANTRAS WERE COINED TO DISSUADE THE SADHAKA FROM

> VARNA

> > ASHRAMA.

>

> What!? So prayoga-s are created just like that out of some magic

bag?

> And a prayoga to dissuade someone from varNAshrama? Does this make

> *any* sense in the first place?

Prayogas are the rant of " typical hardcore shaktas "

>

> > THIS IS NOT MY OPINION BUT OF A VERY ADVANCED

> > SRIVIDYOPASAKA WHO WROTE A WONDERFUL WORK ON TANTRA

(UNFORTUNATELY

> I

> > DONOT REMEMBER HIS NAME). SO, PROBABLY THE SHODASI PRAYOGAS

HAVE

> > SPRUNG UP IN THE SIMILAR FASHION.

>

> We should all learn to let go of things at some point rather than

> justify our false opinions at whatever cost. I will say nothing

else

> on this. i am reminded of the thread on khaDga.

>

> > The great smartha Shri Appayya Dikshitar mentions that one who is

> > Atma Kamah (one who longs for atmasaakshaatkara) is the Aaptha

> > Kamah. And only he is fit to receive the Srividya Diksha. He

> > further says that " Sa-kaama Srividya Upasana " is Vama and " Nish-

> kaama

> > Srividya Upasana " is Dakshina which should be accepted by Sroutha

> > Srividya School of Thought.

>

> I would like to see a reference for this. Either Appaya is

> misunderstood or misquoted I feel. This sort of distinction between

> vAmA and dakShina is inaccurate. One will find many sa-kAma

elements

> in dakShiNachAra too.

>

> Refer the bhavanopanishad bhashya of Shri Dikshitar....

> > As regards Siddhanta Saiva in Southern India, it is more tilted

> > towards Dwaita Philosophy with the stress given to Panchakshari

> > Mantra whereas pertaining to the Saiva of North it is of Monistic

> in

> > nature.

> Shri Meykanda Deva belonged to the Siddhanta Saiva Sect.

> > His 12 sutras on Siddhanta Saiva emphasizes on certain points of

> > Yoga, Bhakti and Panchakshari Japa.

>

> This is a very uninformed view of shaiva schools.One has to write a

> long essay to rectify the inaccuracies in the above statements.

>

> I dont have time for that. I only request that when we make

> statements like these we should use caution to avoid making

> inaccurate statements, because many people read these forums and we

> will be responsible for spreading false and inaccurate info.

>

> Regards

>

July 24, 2008

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

>

> , " Satish " <satisharigela@> wrote:

> >

> > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Upasana of Vak was the form of worship that evolved into

> Srikula.

> > > This Srikula is also called Srouta Srividya which basically

> > stresses

> > > on Varnasrama Dharma.

> >

> > Can you give references to the term shrouta shrIvidya?

> > Where did you come across this term?

>

> The srouta rituals that involve agnishtoma and other srouta yagas

> eventually gave way to srividya among smartas. Srividya is also a

> form of agni yajana that involves oblations in siva agni.

Everything can be thought of as a yajna. Even a battle according to

dhanurveda.

Oblations in shivAgni: Is this the main feature of shrIvidya or is it

shrIchakra pUja?

>The upasana

> among these smartas were termed as srouta srividya that yajana.

> Though the term is not in vogue it was used among some of the

smarta

> families in andhra desa (as told my Brahmasri Mudigonda Venkatarama

> Shastrigal - a hardcore srouthi / a srividya upasaka from

> Chandrasekhara Bharati)

So this is something which is coined recently perhaps during

the " paint everything in vedAntic colors craze " then.

We should avoid using such words because they are misleading.

Regarding your statements saying prayoga-s being rants of hardcore

shakta-s. Prayoga-s can be sen anywhere. In veda, in other streams,

in siddhAnta etc. Nothing special about shAkta-s.

Rgds

July 24, 2008

For a smartha, agni upasana is supposed to be the highest form of

upasana. This agni is also called " sri " . Paramaatmanam srayate iti

srih is the vyutpatti. This " sri " is the effulgence of Agni. Agni

and its tejas in the form of " sri " are inseparable entity and is

regarded as a single principle. This agni yajana is maintained by

grihastas as tretaagni and as srouta agni. This srouta agni is

maintained for srouta yagas / jyotishtoma / agnishtoma / poudarika

yagas. A somayaji is one who has performed agnishtoma and

somapana. For a somayagi, there are several dikshas given. Among

them, one diksha is navanita diksha which is the highest form of

diksha for smartas. The one who has undergone this diksha, who

performs vaisvadeva, tretagni upasana is pure and sinless. And

hence, when such a dikshitar passes away, till the dahana samskara,

no sutaka is observed. This privilege is only given to somayaji.

So, a smarta who has performed this yajana of agnishtoma does not

require any other upasana. For such ahitaagni, no baahya srichakra

puja is required. But his intense karma anushtana of Agni has to

culminate into Antaryajana (antaryaga). So, for such ahitaagnis, who

are already adept in Bahiryaga in the form of Agnishtoma, Srividya

is just a tool to perform Antaryaga. Srividya in the form of

Antaryaga was performed by the Smartas and was preserved by these

people.

Eventually, this Agni Upasana, Somayaga and Karmanushtana paved the

way for Bahiryaga among the smarta families. Because, the Bahiryaga

in Srividya is also on par with Agni Yajana, this form of upasana

came into vogue among the smarta families. They performed both Agni

upasana and Bahiryaga of Srividya. Eventually, some of the srouta

rituals like offerings of bali in agnishtoma, somarasa pana were

replaced by elements of vama.

Thus, entered the Vama rituals in the Srividya among the smarta

families which lead to the degeneration of Srividya among smartas and

varnasrama dharma got disturbed.

So, during these times of turmoil, Sankara sublimed some of the vama

rituals that were prevalent among smartas and established the

dakshina path.

So, sroutha srividya is the Yajana of Agni in the form of Jatavedas

(Sri) among the smartha families. Sroutha Srividya implies the

Upasana of Agni and also Vak. And the other is Tantrika Srividya is

the Srikula and Kali kula systems. Earlier there was only Sroutha

Srividya.

Vashishta Ganapati Muni was also of the same view with respect to

Somarasa Pana and Agnishtoma. In one of his works on Rg Bhashya, he

says that the original soma rasa is the soma that is in Sahasrara.

The somarasa pana is the taste of nectar from Sahasrara by the

upasaka during the shat chakra bhedana. This is Antaryaga. And the

Bahiryaga is Somayaga. Even the external worship of Sriyantra is

also compared to this Yajna.

Sriram

, " satisharigela " <satisharigela

wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

> >

> > , " Satish " <satisharigela@> wrote:

> > >

> > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> > > wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Upasana of Vak was the form of worship that evolved into

> > Srikula.

> > > > This Srikula is also called Srouta Srividya which basically

> > > stresses

> > > > on Varnasrama Dharma.

> > >

> > > Can you give references to the term shrouta shrIvidya?

> > > Where did you come across this term?

> >

> > The srouta rituals that involve agnishtoma and other srouta yagas

> > eventually gave way to srividya among smartas. Srividya is also a

> > form of agni yajana that involves oblations in siva agni.

>

> Everything can be thought of as a yajna. Even a battle according to

> dhanurveda.

> Oblations in shivAgni: Is this the main feature of shrIvidya or is

it

> shrIchakra pUja?

>

> >The upasana

> > among these smartas were termed as srouta srividya that yajana.

> > Though the term is not in vogue it was used among some of the

> smarta

> > families in andhra desa (as told my Brahmasri Mudigonda

Venkatarama

> > Shastrigal - a hardcore srouthi / a srividya upasaka from

> > Chandrasekhara Bharati)

>

> So this is something which is coined recently perhaps during

> the " paint everything in vedAntic colors craze " then.

>

> We should avoid using such words because they are misleading.

>

> Regarding your statements saying prayoga-s being rants of hardcore

> shakta-s. Prayoga-s can be sen anywhere. In veda, in other streams,

> in siddhAnta etc. Nothing special about shAkta-s.

>

> Rgds

>

July 24, 2008

You are just using the term shrouta shrIvidyA to refer to shrauta

rituals it looks like from your psoting below. I am not sure what is

driving you to add the word shrIvidyA as a suffix. Just call them

shrauta or vaidika rituals. Why this tail of shrIvidyA behind?

There is only one shrIvidyA and it is tAntric in nature.

> So, a smarta who has performed this yajana of agnishtoma does not

> require any other upasana.

That is fine.

> Eventually, some of the srouta

> rituals like offerings of bali in agnishtoma, somarasa pana were

> replaced by elements of vama.

In vaidIka rituals you will find conexts where there will be offering

of meat, beer etc.

July 25, 2008

Dear Satish,

First of all, understand what is " SRI " and what is " VIDYA " . What is

its relation with SRI-CHAKRA. If concept of Srividya is Tantric then

what is the upaasya devata in Sri-Sukta. What does the " Sri " of

Srisukta denote?

This Sri has its origin from Agni in the form of Jatavedas and its

effulgence which is called Sri. Vidya implies Jnana or Knowledge.

Knowledge of Jatavedas and its upasana is Srividya.

Among the 4 principal deities Agni, Vayu, Surya and Aditya, the

Aditya is visualized a Parama Purusha who resides in Turiya Avastha

which is denoted by 4th foot of Gayatri. This Aditya gives rise to

Surya which is called Su-Parna (Two Winged Bird). With this the

Kalachakra concept has evolved. The Surya with 2 wings is the

representation of 2 halves of the Kalachakra viz., Dakshinayana and

Uttarayana.

The Aditya alongwith Vak (that resides in Akshare Parame Vyoman – the

Supreme Heavens) has evolved the Kalachakra. This Kalachakra is

presided by RASHMIS / MAYUKHAS / MARICHIS. Srichakra is a part of

this Kalachakra. Chakra implies Marichi / Mayukhas / Vyuhas / Kula.

Sri implies the Jatavedas and its effulgence Vak.

During the evolution of this Kalachakra, the concept of three mothers

and three fathers is evolved as revealed in the 10th mantra of

Asyavamasya Sukta.

Tisro maatrustrin pitrn ……………(10)

With the evolution of three mothers, 3 sandhyas in the form

of " Trinabhichakram " has been evolved as per Asyavamasya. If you

contemplate from 11th to 15th riks of Asyavamasya, the entire concept

of Sri-chakra alongwith the Mayukha Devatas in the form of Mithuna

ie., Male-Female Principle presiding over the Rashmis of the

Kalachakra are described. They are:

Dvadashaaram nahi……..(11)

Panchapadam pitaram…….(12)

Panchaare chakre ……..(13)

Sanemi chakram ajaram…..(14)

Saakajaanam sapthathamaahurekajam…..(15)

Our ancient Rg Vedic Seers found some clue in Purusha, Sri,

Asyavamasya, Nasadiya and Vak suktas.

If one observes certain vedic words " yajnena yajnamayajanta

devah.. " , " saadhya rishayashcha ye… " , " marichinaam padamicchanti

vedhasah " , " hrishcha te lakshmischa patnaou " , and many such words

from the Rg Vedic Prayogas, one would not fail to appreciate the

Antaryajana concept of our Seer during those times.

So, the upasana of Aditya with its effulgence as Gayatri and Su-parna

alongwith Kalachakra which is the Chakra / Vyuha / Marichis / Rashmis

is performed in our Pindanda.

The means for upasana of this Aditya rupa Paramapurusha alongwith Sri

is what is called TANTRA. It has its roots from " tanu-vistare " in

words called " tanyate vistaaryate jnanam iti tantrah " .

This process of evolution from Brahmanda Upasana of Paramapurusha in

Aditya Mandala to the Paramapurusha rupa Chit Agni in the Pindanda

have gave rise to certain schools of thought in the form of

Srikula. The Paramapurusha alongwith its Effulgence in the form of

Sri / Vak / Jatavedas of Aditya Mandala is visualized at Sahasrara

Chakra and the entire Kalachakra alongwith its Rashmi Devatas /

Marichi Devatas are visualized in the pindanda from Muladhara to Ajna

Chakra.

The Paramapurusha alongwith effulgence as Sri holds the reins of

Kalachakra which is of 360 degrees along with Paksha, Maasa, Ayana,

27 nakshatras, 12 raasis. In the Pindanda, this same Kalachakra is

meditated from Muladhara to Ajna Chakra and for each Chakra

corresponding degrees are mentioned (refer Subhagodaya Stuthi and

Saundaryalahari). The Paramapurusha alongwith its Sri sports at

Sahasrara Chakra of Pindanda of Jiva and holds this reins of

Kalachakra.

During this process, the concept of Sriyantra evolved after the

revelations of some of the wonderful suktas of Rg Veda. Among these

suktas, Purusha Sukta, Sri Sukta, Asyavamasya Sukta, Vak Sukta and

Durga Sukta form the core texts.

The Sriyantra is just a means and a tool to visualize this Kalachakra

in pindanda and brahmanda. Just as there are 360 mayukhas rashmis in

the pindanda, 360 degrees of rashmis in Brahmanda, there are 360

(180+180) avarana devatas in the Sriyantra that are contemplated

during Navavarana Archana.

So, Paramapurusha alongwith Vak / Sri with Kalachakra during the

process of evolution is replaced by Sriyantra by Mandadhikaris.

The contemplation of Adityamandala antargatha Paramapurusha with Sri

is the Sroutha Srividya which is the Upasana alongwith Jatavedas and

Vak.

During the later evolutions with the help of Shubha Agama Panchaka,

the concept of Tithi Nitya Devatas was formed. With the help of

these Tithi Nitya Devatas and Matrika Vyavastha, the concept of Bhu,

Meru and Kailasa Prasthara Sriyantras were formed.

The concept of Srikula evolved with this and the later stages were

Kali Kula.

Unfortunately or fortunately, the Srouthis bade good bye to their

Sroutha Kandas and replaced their Agni Yajana with Sriyantra. The

Bali, the " vapa " yajana and soutramani ritual involving the maithuna

and somapana were replaced by Vama rituals.

SOME OF THE SMARTAS BECAME BRASHTAS WITH THE VAMACHARA PUJAS AND THIS

IS WHAT ACHARYA SANKARA CONDEMNED. SANKARA SUBLIMATED THIS

VAMACHARA AND ESTABLISHED THE DAKSHINA MODE BY REPLACE THE MAKARA-

PANCHAKA THAT WAS USED BY SROUTHIS AND SMARTAS. HE WAS NOT AGAINST

THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY THE 4TH VARNA. HE WAS AGAINST

THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY TRAI-VARNIKAS.

And as regards the Meat, Beer etc., nowhere such NONSENCE RITUALS ARE

PRESCRIBED IN SROUTHA RITUALS (ATLEAST IN APASTHAMBA SROUTHA

KANDA). My grandfather is a Srouthi who studied Sroutha Rituals

under Brahmasri Vuppuluri Ganapathi Sastry (of Kakinada whom you

might also be knowing).

Well people can very well understand who is misguiding by attacking

the Sankara Vedanta.

It is this misguidance that has lead to the Abhicharika Prayoga on

Acharya Sankara because they DONOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR IDENTITY

AS " HARDCORE SHAKTAS " WHO RANT ABOUT PRAYOGAS.

With regards,

Sriram

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> You are just using the term shrouta shrIvidyA to refer to shrauta

> rituals it looks like from your psoting below. I am not sure what

is

> driving you to add the word shrIvidyA as a suffix. Just call them

> shrauta or vaidika rituals. Why this tail of shrIvidyA behind?

>

> There is only one shrIvidyA and it is tAntric in nature.

>

> > So, a smarta who has performed this yajana of agnishtoma does not

> > require any other upasana.

>

> That is fine.

>

> > Eventually, some of the srouta

> > rituals like offerings of bali in agnishtoma, somarasa pana were

> > replaced by elements of vama.

>

> In vaidIka rituals you will find conexts where there will be

offering

> of meat, beer etc.

>

July 25, 2008

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

>

> Dear Satish,

>

> First of all, understand what is " SRI " and what is " VIDYA " . What

is

> its relation with SRI-CHAKRA. If concept of Srividya is Tantric

then

> what is the upaasya devata in Sri-Sukta. What does the " Sri " of

> Srisukta denote?

People already know what is meant by shrIvidyA. There is no need to

come up with fancy explanations.

Do people remember why we are discussing this? The original question

was about ShoDhasI.

/message/10589

> The Paramapurusha alongwith its Effulgence in the form of

> Sri / Vak / Jatavedas of Aditya Mandala is visualized at Sahasrara

> Chakra and the entire Kalachakra alongwith its Rashmi Devatas /

> Marichi Devatas are visualized in the pindanda from Muladhara to

Ajna

> Chakra.

Where in the veda(not recent upanishad-s) do you find mUlAdhAra ,

anAhata etc chakra-s?

If not where did they come from?

> Unfortunately or fortunately, the Srouthis bade good bye to their

> Sroutha Kandas and replaced their Agni Yajana with Sriyantra. The

> Bali, the " vapa " yajana and soutramani ritual involving the

maithuna

> and somapana were replaced by Vama rituals.

You keep mentioning random thinsg without any sense of direction?

>

> SOME OF THE SMARTAS BECAME BRASHTAS WITH THE VAMACHARA PUJAS AND

THIS

> IS WHAT ACHARYA SANKARA CONDEMNED. SANKARA SUBLIMATED THIS

> VAMACHARA AND ESTABLISHED THE DAKSHINA MODE BY REPLACE THE MAKARA-

> PANCHAKA THAT WAS USED BY SROUTHIS AND SMARTAS. HE WAS NOT AGAINST

> THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY THE 4TH VARNA. HE WAS AGAINST

> THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY TRAI-VARNIKAS.

shankara did not find dakShinachAra. It was in existence long before

him.

> And as regards the Meat, Beer etc., nowhere such NONSENCE RITUALS

ARE

> PRESCRIBED IN SROUTHA RITUALS (ATLEAST IN APASTHAMBA SROUTHA

> KANDA). My grandfather is a Srouthi who studied Sroutha Rituals

> under Brahmasri Vuppuluri Ganapathi Sastry (of Kakinada whom you

> might also be knowing).

Please see below write up. As for meat, it was used in a soma yAga

done in 2001 and another done in 2005(or 6). See what manu has to say

on meat eating. Apastamba also discusses what types of meats can be

eaten.

> Well people can very well understand who is misguiding by attacking

> the Sankara Vedanta.

>

> It is this misguidance that has lead to the Abhicharika Prayoga on

> Acharya Sankara because they DONOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR IDENTITY

> AS " HARDCORE SHAKTAS " WHO RANT ABOUT PRAYOGAS.

I wish you give atleast the slightest bit of thought before making

sweeping statements like this. Assuming the story to be true: If

navagupta performed abhichAra on shankara it reflects *his(i.e

navagupta's)* charecter. Not shakta's. If we have someone who is a

pAtaka among vaidika-s do we say all vaidika-s are like that?

I am surprised that I even have to explain this. Kids will need this

sort of explaining. You seem to be in a highly excited mood which is

clouding your faculty of thought. Take some break.

-------

The hindus of yore had an elaborate ritual of beer making connected

with the exhalted rite called the sautrAmaNI. The adhvaryu priest

bought the following items through barter: grass blades in exchange

for a piece of zinc. Barley grains for goat wool, parched rice in

exchange for yarn. Each bargain the priest uttered the

formula " surAsomavikrayin krayyaste surAsoma " . Then these materials

are carried to the prachIna vaMsha altar and prepares fungal powders

known as nagnahU. He then boils the shyAmAka beans and rice and

collects the supernatants to which he adds the nagnahU powder and

then mixes the two and keeps them away for a while. This preparation

is called mAsara. Then he mixes the mAsara with the boiled grains of

rice and shyAmAkas in a large vessel called the surapAtra chanting

the mantras svAdvIM… He deposits this vessel in a pit at the naiR^ita

corner of the prAchina vaMsha altar for 3 nights. Then a cow is

freshly milked with the mantra ashivibhyAM apAkaromi and the milk is

poured into the ferment with the mantra parIto si~nchatA… He then

shreds the rice leaves into fine pieces and adds them to the ferment

and lets is stay for a night. The next morning he milks two cows with

the mantra 'sarasvatyai apAkaromi…' and adds the milk to the ferment.

He also adds the powder of fresh barley grains and lets it stand for

a night. The next day he adds the milk of 3 cows into the ferment and

adds the flour of parched grains into it. This is let to ferment for

4 days.

He then goes to the southern altar and pours the ferment through a ox

hide funnel through a hoof-sieve with the mantra " si~nchati pari

si~nchati.. " to get a preliminary liquor. This liquor is further

purified by straining through ox and horse hair filters in a pot made

of palAsa wood by reciting the mantra " punAti te parisrutaM.. " . This

liquor is termed the surA. At this point if a yajamAna or his patni

are morbidly reacting to the soma drink by vomitting or flux they are

given the surA as a remedy. indra, ashvins and sarasvati are offered

several cups of the beer, milk and soma in the sacrifice that

follows. The brAhmaNas performing the rite reverse the direction of

their yaGNYOpavItas and drink what is left behing in one of the cups

or they merely smell the liquor, collect the remnants and offer it to

a kshatriya or a vaishya to drink along with a gift. If they do not

get a drinker, they may smell it and then burn all the liquor in

charcoal pyres outside the ritual area with mantras to offer it to

the ancestors.

July 25, 2008

If it seems fanciful so be it. Agama and tantra are the later

developments after the revelations of rg vedic literature.

And regarding your " extraction of beer " , IMHO is Wrong. This is

where VAMACHARA has crept in. Nowhere the usage of Beer and Flesh is

prescribed and if it is so that was the later part of evolution that

has lead to the degeneration of smartha families.

The adhvarya goes to the aranya and extracts the soma rasa from the

plant by chanting the yajurveda mantra " ishetva... " . Even the

mantras you have mentioned are wrong. I would not delve into it since

this is not the forum to discuss these issues of srouta.

Moreover the method which you have mentioned is just a CUT, COPY AND

PASTE from other forum which i am fully aware of it which is a

borrowed idea.

The terms jhusham, parisrutam, mamsam etc. are very well explained by

Shri Simhabhotla Ramamurthy Sastry in his commentary of

Kamakalavilasam.

What i mean to say is Srividya tantra which was the later evolution

after Rg Veda has replaced the Yajanas and kratus among smarta

families.

Agnishomiyaatmakam idam jagat says the sruthi. Srividya is this

yajana of Agnishtoma. This is what says the Kaivalyanavaneeta.

I am neither excited nor my faculty is clouded. I am fully aware of

certain nonsense concepts that have crept in the name of srividya.

And i am just exposing and exploding these things. The yagna

performed in 2001 and 2005 were against the sastraic injunctions.

sriram

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Satish,

> >

> > First of all, understand what is " SRI " and what is " VIDYA " . What

> is

> > its relation with SRI-CHAKRA. If concept of Srividya is Tantric

> then

> > what is the upaasya devata in Sri-Sukta. What does the " Sri " of

> > Srisukta denote?

>

> People already know what is meant by shrIvidyA. There is no need to

> come up with fancy explanations.

>

> Do people remember why we are discussing this? The original

question

> was about ShoDhasI.

> /message/10589

>

> <Bunch of irrelevant stuff snipped>

>

> > The Paramapurusha alongwith its Effulgence in the form of

> > Sri / Vak / Jatavedas of Aditya Mandala is visualized at

Sahasrara

> > Chakra and the entire Kalachakra alongwith its Rashmi Devatas /

> > Marichi Devatas are visualized in the pindanda from Muladhara to

> Ajna

> > Chakra.

>

> Where in the veda(not recent upanishad-s) do you find mUlAdhAra ,

> anAhata etc chakra-s?

> If not where did they come from?

>

> > Unfortunately or fortunately, the Srouthis bade good bye to their

> > Sroutha Kandas and replaced their Agni Yajana with Sriyantra.

The

> > Bali, the " vapa " yajana and soutramani ritual involving the

> maithuna

> > and somapana were replaced by Vama rituals.

>

> You keep mentioning random thinsg without any sense of direction?

>

> >

> > SOME OF THE SMARTAS BECAME BRASHTAS WITH THE VAMACHARA PUJAS AND

> THIS

> > IS WHAT ACHARYA SANKARA CONDEMNED. SANKARA SUBLIMATED THIS

> > VAMACHARA AND ESTABLISHED THE DAKSHINA MODE BY REPLACE THE MAKARA-

> > PANCHAKA THAT WAS USED BY SROUTHIS AND SMARTAS. HE WAS NOT

AGAINST

> > THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY THE 4TH VARNA. HE WAS

AGAINST

> > THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY TRAI-VARNIKAS.

>

> shankara did not find dakShinachAra. It was in existence long

before

> him.

>

> > And as regards the Meat, Beer etc., nowhere such NONSENCE RITUALS

> ARE

> > PRESCRIBED IN SROUTHA RITUALS (ATLEAST IN APASTHAMBA SROUTHA

> > KANDA). My grandfather is a Srouthi who studied Sroutha Rituals

> > under Brahmasri Vuppuluri Ganapathi Sastry (of Kakinada whom you

> > might also be knowing).

>

> Please see below write up. As for meat, it was used in a soma yAga

> done in 2001 and another done in 2005(or 6). See what manu has to

say

> on meat eating. Apastamba also discusses what types of meats can be

> eaten.

>

> > Well people can very well understand who is misguiding by

attacking

> > the Sankara Vedanta.

> >

> > It is this misguidance that has lead to the Abhicharika Prayoga

on

> > Acharya Sankara because they DONOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR IDENTITY

> > AS " HARDCORE SHAKTAS " WHO RANT ABOUT PRAYOGAS.

>

> I wish you give atleast the slightest bit of thought before making

> sweeping statements like this. Assuming the story to be true: If

> navagupta performed abhichAra on shankara it reflects *his(i.e

> navagupta's)* charecter. Not shakta's. If we have someone who is a

> pAtaka among vaidika-s do we say all vaidika-s are like that?

> I am surprised that I even have to explain this. Kids will need

this

> sort of explaining. You seem to be in a highly excited mood which

is

> clouding your faculty of thought. Take some break.

>

> -------

>

> The hindus of yore had an elaborate ritual of beer making connected

> with the exhalted rite called the sautrAmaNI. The adhvaryu priest

> bought the following items through barter: grass blades in exchange

> for a piece of zinc. Barley grains for goat wool, parched rice in

> exchange for yarn. Each bargain the priest uttered the

> formula " surAsomavikrayin krayyaste surAsoma " . Then these materials

> are carried to the prachIna vaMsha altar and prepares fungal

powders

> known as nagnahU. He then boils the shyAmAka beans and rice and

> collects the supernatants to which he adds the nagnahU powder and

> then mixes the two and keeps them away for a while. This

preparation

> is called mAsara. Then he mixes the mAsara with the boiled grains

of

> rice and shyAmAkas in a large vessel called the surapAtra chanting

> the mantras svAdvIM… He deposits this vessel in a pit at the

naiR^ita

> corner of the prAchina vaMsha altar for 3 nights. Then a cow is

> freshly milked with the mantra ashivibhyAM apAkaromi and the milk

is

> poured into the ferment with the mantra parIto si~nchatA… He then

> shreds the rice leaves into fine pieces and adds them to the

ferment

> and lets is stay for a night. The next morning he milks two cows

with

> the mantra 'sarasvatyai apAkaromi…' and adds the milk to the

ferment.

> He also adds the powder of fresh barley grains and lets it stand

for

> a night. The next day he adds the milk of 3 cows into the ferment

and

> adds the flour of parched grains into it. This is let to ferment

for

> 4 days.

>

> He then goes to the southern altar and pours the ferment through a

ox

> hide funnel through a hoof-sieve with the mantra " si~nchati pari

> si~nchati.. " to get a preliminary liquor. This liquor is further

> purified by straining through ox and horse hair filters in a pot

made

> of palAsa wood by reciting the mantra " punAti te parisrutaM.. " .

This

> liquor is termed the surA. At this point if a yajamAna or his patni

> are morbidly reacting to the soma drink by vomitting or flux they

are

> given the surA as a remedy. indra, ashvins and sarasvati are

offered

> several cups of the beer, milk and soma in the sacrifice that

> follows. The brAhmaNas performing the rite reverse the direction of

> their yaGNYOpavItas and drink what is left behing in one of the

cups

> or they merely smell the liquor, collect the remnants and offer it

to

> a kshatriya or a vaishya to drink along with a gift. If they do not

> get a drinker, they may smell it and then burn all the liquor in

> charcoal pyres outside the ritual area with mantras to offer it to

> the ancestors.

>

July 25, 2008

Sriram,

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

Agama and tantra are the later

> developments after the revelations of rg vedic literature.

There is no disagreement on this.

> And regarding your " extraction of beer " , IMHO is Wrong. This is

> where VAMACHARA has crept in.

The concept of vAmAchAra is something related to tantra-s.

So it might be not be relevant when discussing shrauta issues.

According to some this sautrAmani is kaliyuga niShiddha i.e. not to

be followed in kaliyuga. The fact that it is not to be followed in

this yuga means it is an old practice and later it was banned. Which

means it is not something that crept later but during later times, it

went out of practice. Note how it is not said that it is against

shastra-s but something which should not be followed for this yuga.

> Nowhere the usage of Beer and Flesh is

> prescribed and if it is so that was the later part of evolution

that

> has lead to the degeneration of smartha families.

Manu and many otehr smriti-s discuss meat eating. It is not that they

degenrated. That was the old practice. Due to teh influence of

bauddha and jaina mata-s and also due to yoga darshana it was later

abandoned.

> The adhvarya goes to the aranya and extracts the soma rasa from the

> plant by chanting the yajurveda mantra " ishetva... " . Even the

> mantras you have mentioned are wrong. I would not delve into it

since

> this is not the forum to discuss these issues of srouta.

There might be various versions.

>

> Moreover the method which you have mentioned is just a CUT, COPY

AND

> PASTE from other forum which i am fully aware of it which is a

> borrowed idea.

Yeah. It is not like it is some secret. I copied from a freind's

blog just like the other day when I copied teh list of shaiva tantra-

s.

> The terms jhusham, parisrutam, mamsam etc. are very well explained

by

> Shri Simhabhotla Ramamurthy Sastry in his commentary of

> Kamakalavilasam.

The same person goes by the name GYAnAnandanatha too. I read one of

his works and it is biased. There is no impartial analysis.

He may be a knowledgable person but partial which makes him

unreliable regarding some issues.

> What i mean to say is Srividya tantra which was the later evolution

> after Rg Veda has replaced the Yajanas and kratus among smarta

> families.

This is true. It evolved from portions of veda but grew up to be a

different and independant system by itself.

So again where in the veda do we find some of the main terminology of

shrIvidyA like sahasrAra, mUladhAra, etc?

> I am fully aware of

> certain nonsense concepts that have crept in the name of srividya.

> And i am just exposing and exploding these things.

:-)) I dont see that happening

> The yagna

> performed in 2001 and 2005 were against the sastraic injunctions.

This is how they are being done for the last couple of

millenia...maybe with slight changes.

It is not enough saying this is wrong or that is wrong. we need

proofs and references. i already gave you my part and asked to refer

to Apastamba's works.

Also see the devI bhAgavatha(which btw has a very smArta outlook)

where it justifies the use of animals. Some of the shrauta works

further explain that the animal sacrificed goes to the sUrya manDala

and acquires golden horns etc. So it is very much prescribed in

shrauta works as you can see.

July 25, 2008

Why should we all fight for nothing. When I had a personal discussion with

Paramacharya he said that the first lady of the universe is Lakshmi and

Srividhya is therefore, according to me, is nothing but worshipping the potent

energy to reach the latent energy, whatever may be the methods adopted. It is

foolish to think that a man can leave idol worship without mastering the idol

worship. Similarly uttarakaula, kaula, vamachara, dakswhinachara, represent the

concent of the region, means and metyhods adopted by great saints and rishis.

Does anyone insist that a rishi living in south or noth pole should stick to

vegetarianism, deaily bath etc.

Why not we learn to respect various means and methods. Durvasa paddathi does not

have tharpayami, because sanyasis do not have dharmapathnis.

Let us learn to respect every method and let us not criticise.

Regards,

S.SHANGARANARAYANAN

: satisharigela: Fri, 25 Jul 2008

08:32:40 +0000 Re: some of my questions

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:>> Dear

Satish,> > First of all, understand what is " SRI " and what is " VIDYA " . What is >

its relation with SRI-CHAKRA. If concept of Srividya is Tantric then > what is

the upaasya devata in Sri-

July 25, 2008

Sri Venkata Sriramji,

You are indeed a great scholar and I bow before you for imparting the sacred

knowledge to the many upaasakas. Please keep humble beings like me and pour

out your Vidyas for our benefit. I am ever so thankful.

Thanks to Satishji for making Sriramji bring the best in himself.

Regards,

Anbu

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 5:33 AM, sriram <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

> If it seems fanciful so be it. Agama and tantra are the later

> developments after the revelations of rg vedic literature.

>

> And regarding your " extraction of beer " , IMHO is Wrong. This is

> where VAMACHARA has crept in. Nowhere the usage of Beer and Flesh is

> prescribed and if it is so that was the later part of evolution that

> has lead to the degeneration of smartha families.

>

> The adhvarya goes to the aranya and extracts the soma rasa from the

> plant by chanting the yajurveda mantra " ishetva... " . Even the

> mantras you have mentioned are wrong. I would not delve into it since

> this is not the forum to discuss these issues of srouta.

>

> Moreover the method which you have mentioned is just a CUT, COPY AND

> PASTE from other forum which i am fully aware of it which is a

> borrowed idea.

>

> The terms jhusham, parisrutam, mamsam etc. are very well explained by

> Shri Simhabhotla Ramamurthy Sastry in his commentary of

> Kamakalavilasam.

>

> What i mean to say is Srividya tantra which was the later evolution

> after Rg Veda has replaced the Yajanas and kratus among smarta

> families.

>

> Agnishomiyaatmakam idam jagat says the sruthi. Srividya is this

> yajana of Agnishtoma. This is what says the Kaivalyanavaneeta.

>

> I am neither excited nor my faculty is clouded. I am fully aware of

> certain nonsense concepts that have crept in the name of srividya.

> And i am just exposing and exploding these things. The yagna

> performed in 2001 and 2005 were against the sastraic injunctions.

>

> sriram

>

> <%40>, " Satish "

> <satisharigela wrote:

> >

> > <%40>, " sriram "

> <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Satish,

> > >

> > > First of all, understand what is " SRI " and what is " VIDYA " . What

> > is

> > > its relation with SRI-CHAKRA. If concept of Srividya is Tantric

> > then

> > > what is the upaasya devata in Sri-Sukta. What does the " Sri " of

> > > Srisukta denote?

> >

> > People already know what is meant by shrIvidyA. There is no need to

> > come up with fancy explanations.

> >

> > Do people remember why we are discussing this? The original

> question

> > was about ShoDhasI.

> > /message/10589

> >

> > <Bunch of irrelevant stuff snipped>

> >

> > > The Paramapurusha alongwith its Effulgence in the form of

> > > Sri / Vak / Jatavedas of Aditya Mandala is visualized at

> Sahasrara

> > > Chakra and the entire Kalachakra alongwith its Rashmi Devatas /

> > > Marichi Devatas are visualized in the pindanda from Muladhara to

> > Ajna

> > > Chakra.

> >

> > Where in the veda(not recent upanishad-s) do you find mUlAdhAra ,

> > anAhata etc chakra-s?

> > If not where did they come from?

> >

> > > Unfortunately or fortunately, the Srouthis bade good bye to their

> > > Sroutha Kandas and replaced their Agni Yajana with Sriyantra.

> The

> > > Bali, the " vapa " yajana and soutramani ritual involving the

> > maithuna

> > > and somapana were replaced by Vama rituals.

> >

> > You keep mentioning random thinsg without any sense of direction?

> >

> > >

> > > SOME OF THE SMARTAS BECAME BRASHTAS WITH THE VAMACHARA PUJAS AND

> > THIS

> > > IS WHAT ACHARYA SANKARA CONDEMNED. SANKARA SUBLIMATED THIS

> > > VAMACHARA AND ESTABLISHED THE DAKSHINA MODE BY REPLACE THE MAKARA-

> > > PANCHAKA THAT WAS USED BY SROUTHIS AND SMARTAS. HE WAS NOT

> AGAINST

> > > THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY THE 4TH VARNA. HE WAS

> AGAINST

> > > THE VAMACHARA THAT WAS PRACTICED BY TRAI-VARNIKAS.

> >

> > shankara did not find dakShinachAra. It was in existence long

> before

> > him.

> >

> > > And as regards the Meat, Beer etc., nowhere such NONSENCE RITUALS

> > ARE

> > > PRESCRIBED IN SROUTHA RITUALS (ATLEAST IN APASTHAMBA SROUTHA

> > > KANDA). My grandfather is a Srouthi who studied Sroutha Rituals

> > > under Brahmasri Vuppuluri Ganapathi Sastry (of Kakinada whom you

> > > might also be knowing).

> >

> > Please see below write up. As for meat, it was used in a soma yAga

> > done in 2001 and another done in 2005(or 6). See what manu has to

> say

> > on meat eating. Apastamba also discusses what types of meats can be

> > eaten.

> >

> > > Well people can very well understand who is misguiding by

> attacking

> > > the Sankara Vedanta.

> > >

> > > It is this misguidance that has lead to the Abhicharika Prayoga

> on

> > > Acharya Sankara because they DONOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR IDENTITY

> > > AS " HARDCORE SHAKTAS " WHO RANT ABOUT PRAYOGAS.

> >

> > I wish you give atleast the slightest bit of thought before making

> > sweeping statements like this. Assuming the story to be true: If

> > navagupta performed abhichAra on shankara it reflects *his(i.e

> > navagupta's)* charecter. Not shakta's. If we have someone who is a

> > pAtaka among vaidika-s do we say all vaidika-s are like that?

> > I am surprised that I even have to explain this. Kids will need

> this

> > sort of explaining. You seem to be in a highly excited mood which

> is

> > clouding your faculty of thought. Take some break.

> >

> > -------

> >

> > The hindus of yore had an elaborate ritual of beer making connected

> > with the exhalted rite called the sautrAmaNI. The adhvaryu priest

> > bought the following items through barter: grass blades in exchange

> > for a piece of zinc. Barley grains for goat wool, parched rice in

> > exchange for yarn. Each bargain the priest uttered the

> > formula " surAsomavikrayin krayyaste surAsoma " . Then these materials

> > are carried to the prachIna vaMsha altar and prepares fungal

> powders

> > known as nagnahU. He then boils the shyAmAka beans and rice and

> > collects the supernatants to which he adds the nagnahU powder and

> > then mixes the two and keeps them away for a while. This

> preparation

> > is called mAsara. Then he mixes the mAsara with the boiled grains

> of

> > rice and shyAmAkas in a large vessel called the surapAtra chanting

> > the mantras svAdvIM… He deposits this vessel in a pit at the

> naiR^ita

> > corner of the prAchina vaMsha altar for 3 nights. Then a cow is

> > freshly milked with the mantra ashivibhyAM apAkaromi and the milk

> is

> > poured into the ferment with the mantra parIto si~nchatA… He then

> > shreds the rice leaves into fine pieces and adds them to the

> ferment

> > and lets is stay for a night. The next morning he milks two cows

> with

> > the mantra 'sarasvatyai apAkaromi…' and adds the milk to the

> ferment.

> > He also adds the powder of fresh barley grains and lets it stand

> for

> > a night. The next day he adds the milk of 3 cows into the ferment

> and

> > adds the flour of parched grains into it. This is let to ferment

> for

> > 4 days.

> >

> > He then goes to the southern altar and pours the ferment through a

> ox

> > hide funnel through a hoof-sieve with the mantra " si~nchati pari

> > si~nchati.. " to get a preliminary liquor. This liquor is further

> > purified by straining through ox and horse hair filters in a pot

> made

> > of palAsa wood by reciting the mantra " punAti te parisrutaM.. " .

> This

> > liquor is termed the surA. At this point if a yajamAna or his patni

> > are morbidly reacting to the soma drink by vomitting or flux they

> are

> > given the surA as a remedy. indra, ashvins and sarasvati are

> offered

> > several cups of the beer, milk and soma in the sacrifice that

> > follows. The brAhmaNas performing the rite reverse the direction of

> > their yaGNYOpavItas and drink what is left behing in one of the

> cups

> > or they merely smell the liquor, collect the remnants and offer it

> to

> > a kshatriya or a vaishya to drink along with a gift. If they do not

> > get a drinker, they may smell it and then burn all the liquor in

> > charcoal pyres outside the ritual area with mantras to offer it to

> > the ancestors.

> >

>

July 25, 2008

Dear Sriram, Satish

I am writing these out of my sheer ignorance and to an extent a certain amount

of frustration about the way both of you seem to be hijacking the group to

discuss on things that probably dont even serve the purpose of this group which

is to discuss the glory of HER and the dhampathi. ( I read the charter of the

group a few minutes back.)

It is little puzzling that there are a lot of senior experienced members of the

group who are ( may be out of compassion) being a quiet witness to your

vAda-pratiVada. Sometimes makes me wonder if there is a moderator to the group.

Questions dont lead to conclusions in your mails ( this feeling most brought out

in this series of mails) but only to more parallel streams of mails which

neither add value to the original question not bring fresh thots.) Again, my

ignorance in understanding what is being discussed ( which seem to be very lofty

as ideas or concepts- otherwise you would not be writing them in the first

place) may be is the reason.

Satish and Sriram - I have benefited a lot from the answers that you- and the

other learned members- have given to some of my (extremely basic level )

questions. And for those I am grateful to you. Enthused by these, I thought of

learning the reasons behind things that happen/ I do in my sadhana. But these

exchanges have taught me this - there seem to be so much of confusions in the

interpretations of the theories. Even a Guru doesnt stop you from

interpretation, but lets one conclude thru one's sadhana. So I thot : why get

into theory? take refuge in HER. If SHE feels merit in me understanding

anything, SHE will reach it to me. Otherwise be with the sadhana and flow with

the river. To that, thanks to you again. I mean no sarcasm, truely.

Back benchers will remain backbenchers. So obviously you need to continue your

discussions for the benefit of the rest of the group.

And to you Satish and Sriram, I seek your forgivance in case I have offended you

through this mail.

kuryAt kaTaksham kAmAkshi.

Gopi

________

Not happy with your email address?.

Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at

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July 25, 2008

, " Ramesh Krishnamurthy " <rkmurthy

wrote:

> Can you explain this in a little more detail? It is known that

> Kashmiri acharya-s were the early pioneers of the Siddhanta tantric

> tradition in the deep south. But I am not aware of Abhinavagupta's

> system having had any presence in TN. Sadhana apart, there seem to be

> major philosophical differences between the Siddhanta tantrics and the

> followers of Abhinavagupta's system.

I am going to use Itrans to clarify the saMskR^ita because some

members might not be familiar with some of the terms here. I must up

front thank and acknowledge a knowledgeable friend of mine in

explaining many of these points patiently and taking me through the

tantras with the only motive being the joy of expounding the shastras.

I made lots of notes during his explanations which I use for this

lengthy post.

The trika system has as basis the mantra rUpa devatAs: The devI known

as mAlinI. She is called mAlinI because in the gupta dynasty script

the arrangement known as mAlinI of the alphabet of saMskR^ita results

in the form of the devI. This is the great mantra known as bhinnayonI

vidyA. The husband of the malinI is the bhairava known as shabdarAshi.

This root form of shakti and shiva in this system iconographically

manifests as 3 goddesses: parA, parAparA and aparA.

There are many different lineages within trika: 1)

siddhayogeshvarImata > mAlinIvijaya > abhinavagupta's trika system.

This system actually incorporates many elements derived from shaiva

siddhAnta into the trika system even though they might have different

outlooks as Ramesh-ji mentions. The incorporation is clear especially

in the yoga system of mAlinIvijaya. My friend actually showed me a

recent edition and translation of this text which clarifies many of

these points.

2) tantra-sadbhAva 3) devyAyAmala 4) trishirobhairava tantraM. The

last of this has a unique bhairava of the form similar to dattAtreya

with 3 heads. mUrti-s of this bhairava have been found in Kashmir.

5)parA-krama 6)ekavIra 7) anuttara. These are based mainly on the

parAtrimshikA and mainly concentrate on parA-devI only or malinI. This

last system was also developed by abhinavagupta.

The trika system is also incorporated into the shrI-krama oriented

jayadratha-yAmala, which is the largest surviving tantra, being bigger

than the rAmAyaNa I think.

anuttara was very active in Tamil Nadu and one transmission from North

India was probably by the student of abhinavagupta named madhurAja

yogin from madhurai city in TN. Another work my friend has examined is

the parAtrimshikA tAtparyadIpikA a learned trika commentary composed

by the Brahmins of Chidambaram temple in TN. The base text for the

commentary is abhinavagupta's laghuvR^itti on the same suggesting that

it was also a transmission of tradition from Kashmir.

In shrIvidyA as practiced by us in the hAdi tradition as well as the

kAdi-tradition of South India the elements of trikA have been

incorporated. The trika worship is enjoined in the parashurAma

kalpasUtra. The south Indian scholars rAmeshvara-sUrI in TN and

jagannAtha paNDit in Maharashtra have both described the worship of

the trika devI within the shrI-kula system of the PKS. The trika

system is also incorporated into the pA~ncharAtra tantra known as

ahirbudhnya saMhitA. ahirbudhnaya saMhitA is a very popular work used

in vaiShNava kriyA-s in south India.

TN Brahmins perform worship of the trika devI using a stotra called

pa~nchadashika. This calls the system as being designed by

abhinavagupta. I am also informed that abhinavagupta's tantrAloka

manuscripts have been found in TN/Kerala in south Indian scripts

suggesting that the system was definitely there.

I must stress I understand relatively little about TN or Kerala on my

own. I am only synthesizing information I have heard.

Rajita

July 26, 2008

Hari om Gopi bhai,

You have expressed my sentiments. I wrote a post on it before but it

got scissored. I appeal to moderators [others than those involved] to

take notice and enforce moderation. Praying this reply will see daylight.

1) You should be a devotee (bhakta) of shiva-dampati.

2) You should be kind and polite in your postings and

in your response to others postings.

3) You should not be an adherent of vamachara.

2) Postings sent to the group should discuss only devotional works and

related items. Works posted should be in line with shruti, smRti and

puraaNa.

3) Members of the group should be polite, respectful and courteous to

each other during the discussions, especially when errors in

understanding the text is pointed out.

4) is a partially moderated forum. Adminstrator of the list

reserves the right to put any of the member under moderated postings

option. And all new members are by default under moderation. Based on

the posting history, changes to moderation status will applied

5) If you are an adherent of vAmachara, then is not a list for

you.

6) Any works from tantra-s posted to the list should adhere to

samayaachaara/daxinaachara. And we request you to post the original in

sanskrit along with a translation.

Many of them have been violated. Let us have some sanity and not

hijack the forum and hurt sentiments. We should not be discussing

personal theories and history on this forum. If we want to, please

change the group statement. It is very sad to see lack of basic

courtesy in these discussions.

[satish: Dear devotee, I deleted your earlier post on this because I was about

to stop and so thought it may not be relevant. Please also see my post titled

Recent discussion.]

July 26, 2008

Dear gopi,

Namaste.

Nothing to be offended. Infact the criticisms are to be taken in

right perspective because it gives one the chance for self-

introspection.

We are just ordinary mortals and to be frank we have just learn to

crawl like a baby on royal path of srividya.

So, whatever vada-prativada is there between myself and satish is not

out of arrogance or any personal grudge. It is just exchange of

ideas. TO BE FRANK I HAVE ENJOYED THE WAY SATISH PUTS FORTH HIS

QUESTIONS AND THE TYPE OF QUESTIONS WHICH SATISH POSES THAT ITSELF

SHOWS THAT HE IS A GOOD UPASAKA. Infact, he is speaking from Tantric

perspective and i am speaking from vedantic perspective. Both are

correct. But vedanta is the Uttama Lakshana.

There are difference of opinions and it is for us to decide which to

adopt. The same Bhagavatgita is perceived differently by Sankara,

Ramanuja, Madhvacharya, Srikanta Sivacharya. Does that mean that

these stalwarts are wrong. Certainly NOT. Each one has got their

level of understanding and they have been inspired TILL THAT LEVEL

ONLY. Infact, Vidyaranya differs in couple of points in Vedanta

Panchadasi from the Shankara. So, these difference are there because

NO HUMAN IS PERFECT. ONLY DEATH IS THE PERFECTION.

Once a devotee asked Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi whether one should

follow advaita, vishitadvaita or dvaita. He immediately

replied " First try to know WHO YOU ARE " rest of the philosphies would

be revealed by themselves.

" ARROGANCE " is the principle which is only ascribed to mother

Lalitha. Who are before Bhaskara, Sankara, Vidyaranya and scores of

others who have contributed significantly in the field of srividya.

Infact she is the Mula Ahamkara swarupini of Parama Siva. It is the

Ahamtha of Siva. So, any upasaka who poses to be arrogant is bound to

suffer from the YOGINI SHAAPA. And that is what is the STORY OF

DAKSHA YAGNA.

With regards,

Sriram

, Gopi <antarurjas wrote:

>

> Dear Sriram, Satish

>

> I am writing these out of my sheer ignorance and to an extent a

certain amount of frustration about the way both of you seem to be

hijacking the group to discuss on things that probably dont even

serve the purpose of this group which is to discuss the glory of HER

and the dhampathi. ( I read the charter of the group a few minutes

back.)

>

> It is little puzzling that there are a lot of senior experienced

members of the group who are ( may be out of compassion) being a

quiet witness to your vAda-pratiVada. Sometimes makes me wonder if

there is a moderator to the group. Questions dont lead to conclusions

in your mails ( this feeling most brought out in this series of

mails) but only to more parallel streams of mails which neither add

value to the original question not bring fresh thots.) Again, my

ignorance in understanding what is being discussed ( which seem to be

very lofty as ideas or concepts- otherwise you would not be writing

them in the first place) may be is the reason.

>

> Satish and Sriram - I have benefited a lot from the answers that

you- and the other learned members- have given to some of my

(extremely basic level ) questions. And for those I am grateful to

you. Enthused by these, I thought of learning the reasons behind

things that happen/ I do in my sadhana. But these exchanges have

taught me this - there seem to be so much of confusions in the

interpretations of the theories. Even a Guru doesnt stop you from

interpretation, but lets one conclude thru one's sadhana. So I

thot : why get into theory? take refuge in HER. If SHE feels merit

in me understanding anything, SHE will reach it to me. Otherwise be

with the sadhana and flow with the river. To that, thanks to you

again. I mean no sarcasm, truely.

>

> Back benchers will remain backbenchers. So obviously you need to

continue your discussions for the benefit of the rest of the group.

>

> And to you Satish and Sriram, I seek your forgivance in case I have

offended you through this mail.

>

> kuryAt kaTaksham kAmAkshi.

> Gopi

>

> ________

> Not happy with your email address?.

> Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses

available now at http://uk.docs./ymail/new.html

>

some of my questions

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