Rama, Krishna and Vishnu (Veg Vs. Non-Veg)

December 16, 2009

Namaste Kishore, Is Rama a god? As Utpal said, Maharshi Vasishtha explicitly told Rama in Dasaratha's court in the presence of many rishis that he was the supreme god reincarnated as a human being. See Yoga Vaasishtham. * * *

> > Nothing can be more God than Krishna was on this plane, so he thinks.> How about Vishnu the root of dasavatars? I can understand where that gentleman is coming from. Let me start off with a simple analogy. A golden necklace, a golden bangle, a golden ring, a golden arrow and a golden plate may all be made of gold. But, one who spent time with the necklace and is amazed and dazzled by the elaborate work in it may consider it *the best*. If you ask "what about the *root* of this, i.e. the original gold used to make the necklace", he may not be impressed. In fact, he may even tell you that one can melt the necklace and create the "root" gold from it and create other golden objects (bangle, arrow etc) from it. So, from his perspective, the golden necklace is the best golden object and every golden object can be created from it. Of course, one who is equally amazed by the golden arrow may

say the same thing about the arrow! * * * For Lord Hanuman, Rama was everything. All gods (including Vishnu) were present in Rama and Hanuman saw all gods as emanating from Rama. Lord Rama was the supreme god and source of all, in Hanuman's eyes. Annamayya had exactly the same attitude regarding Lord Venkateswara (Balaji). He was the source of all in his eyes. Many saints and yogis had the same attitude regarding Lord Krishna. * * * As long as you are talking about the field of duality, every "truth" has a reference frame. Though we are used to linear logic, linear hierarchies etc, that is because of the reference frame our mind stands on. The field of duality has scope for really complicated versions of

reality. As I said, it is a matter of reference frame. Compared to the reference frame experienced by the minds of normal persons stuck deeply in maayaa, reference frames of great yogis and saints who overcame most layers of maayaa give a better and larger view of the field of duality. But, remember, they too are in the grip of maayaa at some level or the other and nothing is absolute. There are many possible reference frames and many possible experiences of "the ultimate truth" of the field of duality. There is nothing really to debate, in the assertion of the gentleman quoted by Rajarshi. It is his experience. The goal is to find ONE deity like that - one deity you can completely surrender to and can see everything as coming from. Best regards,Narasimha- Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,"Do It

Yourself" ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org Spirituality: Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings- --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Kishore Chitrapu <chitrapu wrote:Kishore Chitrapu <chitrapuRe: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (About my friend) Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 9:50 PM

Namaste Rajarshi,> Nothing can be more God than Krishna was on this plane, so he thinks.How about Vishnu the root of dasavatars? You rightly pointed out that there isn't much value in this theoretical debate. So, I'll stop here on this.

-KishoreOn Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 3:19 AM, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote:

Dear Kishore and Utpal,

I am troubled by one thing just like you are. It is understandable if he says Rama is an ideal man but hard to believe that such a great person claims Rama is not God. Tempted to ask him what really is the definition of God which differentiates Rama from Krishna?

Some months back I had a very lengthy, verbose and charged/heated debate with him on whether Sri Rama is God or not. Mind you, these are all theoritical/ theological debates - nothing to do with actual spirituality. Finally he stopped the debate because I was getting agitated and it would have affected our friendship.

Whenever his opinion is asked on anything, he will only mention that what he can support using logic. Therefore he never generally discusses spirituality with anyone per se. He will discuss and debate scriptures using exact quotations etc, (theology) but not about mysticism or sadhana or anything which needs a belief system. That is why most people know him only as a very rational, massively knowledgeable and uncorruptable human being. They have no clue about his meditations or anything. He never projects himself as spiritual and generally would not discuss God in public.

Therefore our discussion was also on those aspects which can be proved or disproved theologically - 1) Is Rama a God as per Valmiki Ramayana 2) Is it wrong if people consider him as God .. 3) The merits of the Ramcharit Manas of Tulasidasji.

1) To the first question, he believes the answer is "no".

2) To the second question he says it cannot be debated from a spiritual point if it is right or wrong - but his personal opinion is that one should try to follow the way of life shown by Sri Rama rather than worshipping him. He said, Sri Rama had mastery of all divine weapons. He could have destroyed Ravana and his whole army in a blink of an eye, right from the place where he was located when he first heard the news of Sita's abduction, but Rama did not do so and instead chose the hard way of destroying Ravana - the human way. So as per my friend, it is more important to emulate Rama's ideas than to worship Rama.

3) He considers the Ramcharit Manas, from a literary angle, a hodgepodge of langauges and styles ranging from Awadhi to BrajBhasa. An author's paradise (since many rules of composition has been flouted) but a critics nightmare. Also, there is a line in there which equates women with animals or something similar. He believes that was introduces in the text because Tulasidas had a problem controlling his own lust. Therefore, he ended up composing a sentence derogatory to women. Further, he argues that if Sri Rama is worshipped as God, then the purpose of his Avatarhood goes waste. Sri Rama was there to explain idea way of life. Krishna was there to be worshipped because Krishna was maximum ability of God on this plane. Nothing can be more God than Krishna was on this plane, so he thinks.

The above are merely his opinions, feel free to disagree.

Dear Utpal,

One request, if you can speak to him about his thought on Food habits, it'll be great.

I have been out of touch with him since August, been busy myself. But will ask him. However I don't know whether he will respond. Because as I explained above, he rarely discusses/debates anything from a purely spiritual angle.

It was only by chance that I found out one day about his meditations etc and then he confirmed them when asked.

I have seen him debating with Vegans - purely from a scientific point of view - about why there is no harm in having regulated amounts of meat (not red meat).

But I say, as Narasimha said, this person should not be taken as an ideal regarding food habits. Sachin can bat and score century even with a sore back, we will not be able to do it. His strength is his control of mind and his dedication to truth.

-Regards

Rajarshi

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

--- On Tue, 15/12/09, Kishore Chitrapu <chitrapu (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Kishore Chitrapu <chitrapu (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (About my friend)

Tuesday, 15 December, 2009, 3:54 AM

Namaste Rajarshi,Thanks for painting such an portrait of this great person with your words.Spending 72 hours in meditation is act of no ordinary person. His other characteristics and experiences assert that he is a great person. I am troubled by one thing just like you are. It is understandable if he says Rama is an ideal man but hard to believe that such a great person claims Rama is not God. Tempted to ask him what really is the definition of God which differentiates Rama from Krishna?

-Kishore

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 4:02 PM, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote:

Dear Laxmi Narayan,

I was intrigued by above line in your mail and want to know more about this devotee. Do you know him as a friend and is he a Indian? What sort of path/sadhana is he following?? Is he a sannyasin or a householder ?Did specific changes happened in his life after he had these samadhi and visions.Any other special things about him.

Yes he is a friend of mine. I can only tell you very little about his spiritual life, because he hardly ever shares it with anyone. He is married, lives in Delhi and has a son as well.

Before I tell you anything more about his spiritual life that I know, let me say line or two about the nature of this friend of mine. I met him about two years back. What first attracted me to towards him was his impeccable honestly. I mean, he is a maniac when it comes to honestly. If someone were to put a gun to his head and ask him to just say a simple, harmless lie, like sun rises in the west, he would not say it. Therefore he never jokes with anyone too! He has actually never ever spoken even a single lie in his whole life, big or small. When he was in his school, once his teacher told him that Indian languages are richer than English, he believed his teacher. Later someone else told him English is more comprehensive language and the world cannot do with it. He got confused. Since that day, he bought himself two thick fat dictionaries, one English, one Hindi and for ten years every day he spend one

hour reading the English dictionary and one hour reading the Hindi dictionary apart from reading up volumes of Hindi and English literature. When I asked him why, he just said it is because he wanted to be equally adept at both the languages so that one day he can take a really detached view to judge the truth about which is more comprehensive language! As I said, he has an uncompromising attitude when it comes to finding out the truth about anything. By education, he is a Phd is mathematics. He has worked in different fields, from banking to education to journalism. He did not last for long in most places. He speaks and writes fluently, English, Bengali, Hindi, Urdu, Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, French. Now he is learning Tamil. He composes poetry in all the above languages. When he was in college, he considered himself an atheist. While applying for a job he had kept the place makered for religion as blank. When the clerk who was

supposed to take the forms saw that blank space, he asked my friend's name. Hearing a Hindu name, the clerk wrote "Hindu". Seeing this, my friend snatched the form from the clerk and tore it up right there. Because, he considered himself an atheist and writing Hindu in the form would have been a lie.

So this gives a basic idea of the man I am speaking of. All his friends, whoever knows him, calls him Rama of Kaliyuga.

One day, long back, he was going to office for some urgent meeting. His way to office passed by a Krishna temple. As he was passing by in his scooter, suddenly he felt a strange urge to go into the temple. He says he still does not know why he went inside the temple, but he did. That was at 9 o clock in the morning. Next when he sees his watch it is 4:30 in the evening! And he has no knowledge of how the time went. When he asked the priest, the priest said that he went into the temple sat down and just stayed as he was for the whole time without any movement. The priest somehow felt scared to disturb him. But my friend had no idea why this happened. He remembered nothing, as if he was in deep sleep.

Then he started meditating at home, and it was there that he got visions etc of Krishna. He does not say much about these, infact most people who know him also do not know these things. But once he was in samadhi for 72 hours, not moving from his meditation seat, in the exact same place and same position for 3 days continuously. Only his wife and close relatives know about this incident. I believe nowadays when ever he sits for meditation he often enters the state of Samadhi. When someone asked him how he felt during samadhi, he just said it feels as if the whole universe orginates from me. I am the sun, the moon, the stars, the planets, the animals, men, women, children, the wind, the water, the space, smaller than the atom and bigger than everything. It cannot be accurately desribed. He considers Sri Krishna to be God and Lord Rama to be the ideal man.That is why he does not like the Ramacharit Manas because he thinks it

elevated Sri Rama to the level of a God whereas the aim of the orginal Valmiki Ramayana was to show Sri Rama as an ideal man, not a God.The difference he says is that, an ideal man is someone who can be emulated, an ordinary man can and should aim to become like the ideal. But a God cannot be emulated by ordinary men. One cannot become Krishna, but one can try to lead his life like Rama. I have argued with him over this, but I am merely stating his idea. Also he does not have a Guru - a human guru at least, and advises people to not trust most Gurus these days. Needless to say, he is not an atheist any more.

Later he had once mentioned he knew the relation he had with all the people around him in his past lives. His mother he says, was his daughter in his past life etc. Nowadays he spends a lot of time on different internet forums interacting with people, specially with those in the age group of 18 to 30, discussing anything and everything with them, from Indian politics to Indian history, religion, etc etc. His idea is to impart right knowledge to young people who will be the future of this country.

He is am omnivorous person. Like any other Bengali, eats fish, meat etc.

I shall refrain from mentioning his name because I had not asked his permission before mentioning him.

-Regards

Rajarshi

PS: I would not like this mail to be considered as a part of the debate. This mail is just because Laxmi Narayan asked for information.

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

--- On Mon, 14/12/09, Laxmi Narayan <shrijishrihari@ .co. uk> wrote:

Laxmi Narayan <shrijishrihari@ .co. uk>

Re: Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a vegetarian's point of view)

Monday, 14 December, 2009, 10:34 PM

I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who seesKrishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many timesover, who is omnivorous.Hello Rajarshi, I was intrigued by above line in your mail and want to know more about this devotee. Do you know him as a friend and is he a Indian? What sort of path/sadhana is he following?? Is he a sannyasin or a householder ?Did specific changes happened in his life after he had these samadhi and visions.Any other special things about him.

In the Gita Lord is saying whatever you do/eat offer it to me first. So he is offering all these non-veg to Lord with devotion, Right?? Then prasdam all around??My curious questions are not against your acceptance of his exexperienceut to learn more.After all he is

part of hidden violence. Somebody is inflicting gruesome pain and misery on animals and birds on his behalf and he is consuming them and yet he is experiencing all these exotic visions, But no feeling of kindness towards birds and animals.

Where did I go wrong? Simple dal/roti and do not even touch onion/garlic/ pepper but no such samadhi? When we get burnt, we need to be careful.Many years ago I saw in a book/article about Dayamata who succeded Paramhansa Yoganand. Once she went to India and told a Spiritual Master that her progress has stopped. Master said, you are eating eggs which she admitted that she was doing secretly.

This is very complex world. No outright solutions for so many difficult questions. Followers of 3 faiths which all originated in middle east are fighting each other all the time. Sometimes I think, from which part of Spiritual Sky these energies are coming,Are they also enemies

there?? Their Gods said in their holy books that animals are their food. So they cannot even think about souls in animals or their pain and emotions.Then I have read stories about several people, who follow these faiths and are non-veg and how they exexperience spiritual highs and other such phenomena. It is so difficult to comprehend. Would they remain in the cycle of b/d till they learn about kindness???

Kind RegardsLaxmiNarayan--- On Sat, 12/12/09, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote:

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.