Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the confirmation/Gandhiji's statement)

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

My previous mail went off incomplete.

 

Gandhiji's statement "The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) ....". is probably the loose english translation of the famous saying "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma."

 

This reminded me of two things. One, I do not agree with Gandhiji. Two, there is another part of this statement "Dharma himsa tathaiva cha".

 

Taken together it becomes... "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha".

(Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service of Dharma.)

 

This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is Dharma, I would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on Dharma, because no one has explained swa-dharma as beautifully as he has done in his mails in this forum.

 

Interestingly, a thought came to me. The heading of this mail says (Mother gave the confirmation!). So true. For Utpal it was one sort of confirmation, for me another sort. Through the same sentence the Universe can teach different things to different people.

 

-Regards

Rajarshi

 

 

 

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Mon, 14/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak wrote:

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the confirmation) Date: Monday, 14 December, 2009, 10:14 AM

 

Namaste All,

I again give link to my Initial message which wasn't responded to.

http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

I repost some later part of the message below:

But am I wrong in thinking this way? Am I wrong in my efforts to makethem understand my view point? Though I never pressurize or irritateanybody on the issue.Some times I feel that if most of the humans on earth eat meat, fishand eggs then is there any fundamental misconception about it? canthere be so many people wrong in their food habits. But in any case,for me I¡¦ll stick to veg food simply.....***

I got the Final conclusive Confirmation to my view point yesterday in quite an interesting way. Yesterday evening i went to a mall along with some family friends. Occasion being my marriage anniversary. One senior friend, whom i respect very much, who is also a vegetarian, suddenly started arguments with me on the same topic. He was arguing from the Nonveg point of view. In short, he was saying by giving examples that People who meat are also very gentle, polite and good natured. They are not Tamasik and such arguments. I again reiterated my view. I told him that i do not say that the people who eat meat are *Bad* people. I do not also claim that Pure veggies are all and always *Good* people. Infact, i have a couple of very good friends who are meat eater and they are really good human beings. I only say

that the people who eat meat are not doing the right Karma because the act results in to cold blooded killing/ butchering / massacre of innocent Creatures. I only say that for eating (actually satisfying cravings of palate), one has no right to harm the other life.

We both kept quite for a while and then i suddenly saw a advertisement poster of Mont blank pen on which Mahatma Gandhi's picture was shown with one of his thought and signature. I had earlier seen this poster but never felt like going near and reading it. but yesterday i went near that to read the thought of Mahatma in his own handwritings and Lo! It was written:

"The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) ....". I called my friend near and showed him that. he also starred for a while to that thought. The discussion ended. He got the answer probably and I got my confirmation!

***

I always recite a prayer at conclusion of my daily Homam (I prefer this prayer over "Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhabantu...) which goes like this:

Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaH, Sarve Santu NiraamayaaHa

Sarve Bhadraani Pashyantu, MaaKaschidDukhaBhag bhavet !!!

Om Shanti.. Shanti... ShantiHi

 

yours,

Utpal

 

 

 

 

, "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:>> Mahatma Gandhi was vegetarian and Sardar Vallabhbhai Zaverbhai Patel in particular was also vegetarian who was a Terror for Adversaries of India. We require 'Will Power' much much more than the power of physical muscles and by the way Veg. food does not make one weak and Tamasik> > rgds> Utpal> , Se Am mahalaxmyey@ wrote:> >> > swami vivekanada found indians weak and not able to struggle against muslims and british> > they were vegeterian and eating frugally> > then indians were weak and full of tamas> > so he induced them to eat meat and get some rajas> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@> > @

. com> > Sat, December 12, 2009 12:19:46 AM> > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc...> > In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.> > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.> > In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again below:> > Please do not consider my point for Veg/Nonveg with perspective of> > Spiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point in> > Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non

Violence)> > against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).> > ***> > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.> > In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not justify and make it proper thing.> > ***> > Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my message. i apologise in advance for my bluntness.> > your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very

honest. > > In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking.> > To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.> > Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate killing invloved. I gave an example of one such person and there are few more i know. howvever they are very very very rare.> > ***> > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical

and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.> > I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.> > ***> > Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.> > Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:> > Warm Regards,> > Utpal > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Utpal,> > > Â > > > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please

take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:> > >  > > >  > > > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > > > > > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.> > >  > > > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in

queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > >  > > >  > > > I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted. > > >  > > > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to judge everyone. > > >  > > > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were

watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is. Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is a> > > vegetarian in this life,

if he gets born in a place/culture/ family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.> > >  > > > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you

would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming that? God knows.> > > Â > > > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically good.> > > Â > > > Â >

> >  If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > > > > > > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.> > >  > > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly. > > >  > > > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and

pure bunkum.I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non- vegetarian combination. > > >  > > >  > > > -Regards> > >  Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:> > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > > > > > Friday,

11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM> > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > > > > > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves

not convinced.> > > > > > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > > > > > The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.> > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of

Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.> > > > > > ***> > > Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Utpal> > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...>

wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Utpal,> > > >  > > > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view. You said:> > > >  > > > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. > > > >  > > > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where

they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty. If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. The point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.> > > >  > > > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> > > >  > > > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to

plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!> > > >  > > > > What you consider selfish maybe a law of nature. > > > >  > > > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. > > > >  > > > > -Regards> > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak

<vedic_pathak@ ...>> > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > > > > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,> > > > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> > > > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> > > > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> > > > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> > > > [> > > > I

couldn¡¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my> > > > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> > > > ¡§I don¡¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> > > > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I won¡¦t be> > > > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> > > > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > > > cruel and that is the

personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural reason¡¨> > > > ]> > > > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> > > > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> > > > Best Regards,> > > > Utpal> > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up. > > > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord

Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > > > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > > > > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > >> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > >> >>

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

[Guest guest]

Dear Rajarshi and everybody else,

>(Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service >of Dharma.) >This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is >Dharma, I would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on >Dharma, because no one has

Let me clear few things explicitly. We are confusing and Mixing different things here. I am taking 'Ahimsa' in the context of Food habits/preferences and Hinsa involved in that. Hinsa (Injury/Killing) involved in that is quite different than say for instance, Injury and killing involved in Military Wars.If a Tiger is attacking human societies every now and then and killing people then it is required to be captured or Killed. That Hinsa is different.So now if we talk about Swa-Dharma (As Narasimha explained earlier) or Collective society Dharma or Rashtra Dharma, The Killing which happens during Military war can fall in Swa-Dharma of a soldier who kills solders of the other side. It can be called Dharma of Group of people (Society) to kill a Man eater Tiger.

What i am referring to again and again is the Killing involved for the reason of Food habits and THAT is what which can not fall under Swa-Dharma of people eating meat. Its possible that the karma of people working in Butchery shops may not be that heavier then the people who eat meat.

In my opinion, references to Swadharma is not proper here.

***

It is also correct that Most have cravings for the palate. Vegetarian people also have cravings for Spicy, Hot, Sweet, etc.. food. The Major difference however is that Craving for the Veg food is far better in comparison because craving for a Chicken or Mutton amounts directly to a loss of life.

Again, I think that it is not required to go in to philosophical discussions here.

***I understand that people are born with the Karma baggage of past lives. they will get the culture, family background, habits etc... due to that. Mental conditioning will vary. BUT if a person comes to know about certain things then it is no use blaming or taking shelter under the circumstances. His/her will is always there. Discrimination is always there. I dare give an advise here. if somebody wants to change Habits which one feel to be disastrous, one can try as much possible (Like Rajarshi tried for 108 days) and at the same time surrender to God. pray every day to almighty to help and over a period of time, help will come. will surely come.

I do not boast or take any pride in eating Vegetarian food and my intentions are never to insult the people who eat meat. My only concern here is *Killing of Animals, Birds etc...* for NOT justifiable reasons.

***

a Plant and tree has a life. I agree. Let me ask what to eat then? Because if you stop eating vegetables and grains then it'll be a vital questions of Survival. Somebody suggested that It is not useful to discuss Veg and non veg. i respectfully disagree with that. Discussions were required and this thread will prove to be immensely useful. even a single person changes his/her Mind and turns away from Nonveg eating.

 

Best Regards,

Utpal

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:>> Namaste>  > My previous mail went off incomplete.>  > Gandhiji's statement "The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) ....". is probably the loose english translation of the famous saying "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma.">  > This reminded me of two things. One, I do not agree with Gandhiji. Two, there is another part of this statement "Dharma himsa tathaiva cha".>  > Taken together it becomes... "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha".> (Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service of Dharma.)>  > This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is Dharma, I would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on Dharma, because no one has explained swa-dharma as beautifully as he has done in his mails in this forum.>  > Interestingly, a thought came to me. The heading of this mail says (Mother gave the confirmation!). So true. For Utpal it was one sort of confirmation, for me another sort. Through the same sentence the Universe can teach different things to different people. >  > -Regards>  Rajarshi>  >  > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Mon, 14/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak wrote:> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the confirmation)> > Monday, 14 December, 2009, 10:14 AM> > >  > > > > > Namaste All,> I again give link to my Initial message which wasn't responded to.> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> I repost some later part of the message below:> But am I wrong in thinking this way? Am I wrong in my efforts to make> them understand my view point? Though I never pressurize or irritate> anybody on the issue.> Some times I feel that if most of the humans on earth eat meat, fish> and eggs then is there any fundamental misconception about it? can> there be so many people wrong in their food habits. But in any case,> for me I¡¦ll stick to veg food simply.....> ***> I got the Final conclusive Confirmation to my view point yesterday in quite an interesting way. Yesterday evening i went to a mall along with some family friends. Occasion being my marriage anniversary.  One senior friend, whom i respect very much, who is also a vegetarian, suddenly started arguments with me on the same topic. He was arguing from the Nonveg point of view. In short, he was saying by giving examples that People who meat are also very gentle, polite and good natured. They are not Tamasik and such arguments.  I again reiterated my view. I told him that i do not say that the people who eat meat are *Bad* people. I do not also claim that Pure veggies are all and always *Good* people. Infact, i have a couple of very good friends who are meat eater and they are really good human beings.  I only say that the people who eat meat are not doing the right Karma because the act results in to cold blooded killing/ butchering / massacre> of innocent Creatures. I only say that for eating (actually satisfying cravings of palate), one has no right to harm the other life.> We both kept quite for a while and then i suddenly saw a advertisement poster of Mont blank pen on which Mahatma Gandhi's picture was shown with one of his thought and signature. I had earlier seen this poster but never felt like going near and reading it. but yesterday i went near that to read the thought of Mahatma in his own handwritings and Lo! It was written:> "The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) ....". I called my friend near and showed him that. he also starred for a while to that thought. The discussion ended.  He got the answer probably and I got my confirmation!> ***> I always recite a prayer at conclusion of my daily Homam (I prefer this prayer over "Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhabantu...) which goes like this:> Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaH, Sarve Santu NiraamayaaHa> Sarve Bhadraani Pashyantu, MaaKaschidDukhaBhag bhavet !!!> Om Shanti.. Shanti... ShantiHi> > yours,> Utpal>  >  >  >  > > , "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> >> > Mahatma Gandhi was vegetarian and Sardar Vallabhbhai Zaverbhai Patel in particular was also vegetarian who was a Terror for Adversaries of India. We require 'Will Power' much much more than the power of physical muscles and by the way Veg. food does not make one weak and Tamasik> > > > rgds> > Utpal> > , Se Am mahalaxmyey@ wrote:> > >> > > swami vivekanada found indians weak and not able to struggle against muslims and british> > > they were vegeterian and eating frugally> > > then indians were weak and full of tamas> > > so he induced them to eat meat and get some rajas> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@> > > > > > Sat, December 12, 2009 12:19:46 AM> > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc...> > > In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.> > > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.> > > In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again below:> > > Please do not consider my point for Veg/Nonveg with perspective of> > > Spiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point in> > > Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)> > > against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).> > > ***> > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.> > > In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not justify and make it proper thing.> > > ***> > > Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my message. i apologise in advance for my bluntness.> > > your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest. > > > In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking.> > > To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.> > > Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate killing invloved. I gave an example of one such person and there are few more i know. howvever they are very very very rare.> > > ***> > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.> > > I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.> > > ***> > > Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.> > > Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:> > > Warm Regards,> > > Utpal > > > > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Utpal,> > > >  > > > > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:> > > >  > > > >  > > > > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > > > > > > > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.> > > >  > > > > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > > >  > > > >  > > > > I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted. > > > >  > > > > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to judge everyone. > > > >  > > > > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is. Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is> a> > > > vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/ family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.> > > >  > > > > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming that? God> knows.> > > >  > > > > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically good.> > > >  > > > >  > > > >  If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > > > > > > > > > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.> > > >  > > > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly. > > > >  > > > > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non- vegetarian combination. > > > >  > > > >  > > > > -Regards> > > >  Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > > > > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM> > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > > > > > > > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > > > > > > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > > > > > > > The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.> > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.> > > > > > > > ***> > > > Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.> > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Utpal> > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Utpal,> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view.ÃÆ'‚ You said:> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚§I donÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms). Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty.ÃÆ'‚ If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. TheÃÆ'‚ point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural reasonÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¨> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > What you consider selfishÃÆ'‚ maybe a law of nature. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > -Regards> > > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > > > > > > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,> > > > > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> > > > > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> > > > > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> > > > > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> > > > > [> > > > > I couldnÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my> > > > > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> > > > > ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚§I donÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> > > > > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I wonÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t be> > > > > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> > > > > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural reasonÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¨> > > > > ]> > > > > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> > > > > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > Utpal> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > > > > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > > > > > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in./>

[Guest guest]

Hi,do you think plants does not have life?I thought plants(all vegetation) also needs food and dies, rotten like human bodies when they are taken/plucked from the soil or water, the only difference is they don't have voice to shout like other living beings.

not only blood shed is violence, killing of a life is also violence..

 

so here my point is people who are eating vegetarian and non-vegetarian people doing their dharma, from my knowledge there is no need to worry or feel sorry here.

 

//a Plant and tree has a life. I agree. Let me ask what to eat then?

 

if we have to worry about doing our own dharma - then Lord Krishna have to come to each and everyone to tell upadesa. Our duty is to do our dharma - do the dharma and clear your karmic debt, moreover we are not we we are all Krishna, the thing that we should understand is Lord Krishna is playing the role, so nothing to worry/confuse about ourself.

regards,

Surenthar P

 

 

 

 

vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak Sent: Mon, 14 December, 2009 3:11:31 PM Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the confirmation/Gandhiji's statement)

 

Dear Rajarshi and everybody else,

>(Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service >of Dharma.) >This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is >Dharma, I would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on >Dharma, because no one has

Let me clear few things explicitly. We are confusing and Mixing different things here. I am taking 'Ahimsa' in the context of Food habits/preferences and Hinsa involved in that. Hinsa (Injury/Killing) involved in that is quite different than say for instance, Injury and killing involved in Military Wars.If a Tiger is attacking human societies every now and then and killing people then it is required to be captured or Killed. That Hinsa is different.So now if we talk about Swa-Dharma (As Narasimha explained earlier) or Collective society Dharma or Rashtra Dharma, The Killing which happens during Military war can fall in Swa-Dharma of a soldier who kills solders of the other side. It can be called Dharma of Group of people (Society) to kill a Man eater Tiger.

What i am referring to again and again is the Killing involved for the reason of Food habits and THAT is what which can not fall under Swa-Dharma of people eating meat. Its possible that the karma of people working in Butchery shops may not be that heavier then the people who eat meat.

In my opinion, references to Swadharma is not proper here.

***

It is also correct that Most have cravings for the palate. Vegetarian people also have cravings for Spicy, Hot, Sweet, etc.. food. The Major difference however is that Craving for the Veg food is far better in comparison because craving for a Chicken or Mutton amounts directly to a loss of life.

Again, I think that it is not required to go in to philosophical discussions here.

***I understand that people are born with the Karma baggage of past lives. they will get the culture, family background, habits etc... due to that. Mental conditioning will vary. BUT if a person comes to know about certain things then it is no use blaming or taking shelter under the circumstances. His/her will is always there. Discrimination is always there. I dare give an advise here. if somebody wants to change Habits which one feel to be disastrous, one can try as much possible (Like Rajarshi tried for 108 days) and at the same time surrender to God. pray every day to almighty to help and over a period of time, help will come. will surely come.

I do not boast or take any pride in eating Vegetarian food and my intentions are never to insult the people who eat meat. My only concern here is *Killing of Animals, Birds etc...* for NOT justifiable reasons.

***

a Plant and tree has a life. I agree. Let me ask what to eat then? Because if you stop eating vegetables and grains then it'll be a vital questions of Survival. Somebody suggested that It is not useful to discuss Veg and non veg. i respectfully disagree with that. Discussions were required and this thread will prove to be immensely useful. even a single person changes his/her Mind and turns away from Nonveg eating.

 

Best Regards,

Utpal

, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@. ..> wrote:>> Namaste>  > My previous mail went off incomplete.>  > Gandhiji's statement "The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) ....". is probably the loose english translation of the famous saying "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma.">  > This reminded me of two things. One, I do not agree with Gandhiji. Two, there is another part of this statement "Dharma himsa tathaiva cha".>  > Taken together it becomes... "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha".> (Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service of Dharma.)>  > This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is Dharma, I would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on Dharma, because no one has explained swa-dharma

as beautifully as he has done in his mails in this forum.> Â > Interestingly, a thought came to me. The heading of this mail says (Mother gave the confirmation! ). So true. For Utpal it was one sort of confirmation, for me another sort. Through the same sentence the Universe can teach different things to different people. > Â > -Regards> Â Rajarshi> Â > Â > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Mon, 14/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...> Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the confirmation)> > Monday, 14 December, 2009, 10:14 AM> > > Â > > > > > Namaste All,> I again give link to

my Initial message which wasn't responded to.> http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> I repost some later part of the message below:> But am I wrong in thinking this way? Am I wrong in my efforts to make> them understand my view point? Though I never pressurize or irritate> anybody on the issue.> Some times I feel that if most of the humans on earth eat meat, fish> and eggs then is there any fundamental misconception about it? can> there be so many people wrong in their food habits. But in any case,> for me I¡¦ll stick to veg food simply.....> ***> I got the Final conclusive Confirmation to my view point yesterday in quite an interesting way. Yesterday evening i went to a mall along with some family friends. Occasion being my marriage anniversary.  One senior friend, whom i respect very much, who is also a

vegetarian, suddenly started arguments with me on the same topic. He was arguing from the Nonveg point of view. In short, he was saying by giving examples that People who meat are also very gentle, polite and good natured. They are not Tamasik and such arguments.  I again reiterated my view. I told him that i do not say that the people who eat meat are *Bad* people. I do not also claim that Pure veggies are all and always *Good* people. Infact, i have a couple of very good friends who are meat eater and they are really good human beings.  I only say that the people who eat meat are not doing the right Karma because the act results in to cold blooded killing/ butchering / massacre> of innocent Creatures. I only say that for eating (actually satisfying cravings of palate), one has no right to harm the other life.> We both kept quite for a while and then i suddenly saw a advertisement

poster of Mont blank pen on which Mahatma Gandhi's picture was shown with one of his thought and signature. I had earlier seen this poster but never felt like going near and reading it. but yesterday i went near that to read the thought of Mahatma in his own handwritings and Lo! It was written:> "The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) ....". I called my friend near and showed him that. he also starred for a while to that thought. The discussion ended.  He got the answer probably and I got my confirmation!> ***> I always recite a prayer at conclusion of my daily Homam (I prefer this prayer over "Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhabantu...) which goes like this:> Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaH, Sarve Santu NiraamayaaHa> Sarve Bhadraani Pashyantu, MaaKaschidDukhaBhag bhavet !!!> Om Shanti.. Shanti... ShantiHi> > yours,> Utpal>  >

 >  >  > > , "vedic_pathak" <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> >> > Mahatma Gandhi was vegetarian and Sardar Vallabhbhai Zaverbhai Patel in particular was also vegetarian who was a Terror for Adversaries of India. We require 'Will Power' much much more than the power of physical muscles and by the way Veg. food does not make one weak and Tamasik> > > > rgds> > Utpal> > , Se Am mahalaxmyey@ wrote:> > >> > > swami vivekanada found indians weak and not able to struggle against muslims and british> > > they were vegeterian and eating frugally> > > then indians were weak and full of tamas> > > so he induced them to eat meat and get some rajas> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@> > > > > > Sat, December 12, 2009 12:19:46 AM> > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc...> > > In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.> > > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.> > > In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again below:> > > Please do not consider my point for

Veg/Nonveg with perspective of> > > Spiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point in> > > Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)> > > against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).> > > ***> > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly.> > > In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not justify and make it proper thing.> > > ***> > > Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my

message. i apologise in advance for my bluntness.> > > your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest. > > > In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking.> > > To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.> > > Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate killing invloved. I gave an example

of one such person and there are few more i know. howvever they are very very very rare.> > > ***> > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.> > > I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.> > > ***> > > Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.> > > Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:> > > Warm Regards,> > > Utpal

> > > > > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Utpal,> > > >  > > > > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:> > > >  > > > >  > > > > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > > > > > > > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who were vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not claiming that I have any

special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I am saying is that, this logic that many vegetarian people provide to convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.> > > >  > > > > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > > >  > > > >  > > > > I understand and appreciate you

feelings, but I personally do not share them. Call me cruel hearted. > > > >  > > > > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to judge everyone. > > > >  > > > > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends seemed disgusted. I asked them, "Why?". If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what is wrong if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep

eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so it is. Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person who is> a> > > > vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/ family in a later lifetime which eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even bat an eye lid while eating the same. I know people who faint at the sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but it cannot be a universal logic applicable to all.> > > >  >

> > > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then, if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a non-vegetarian) does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it is quite acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled. It is similar to the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs. They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot like dead from birth. What karma does one get for

consuming that? God> knows.> > > > Â > > > > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20 veg/non-veg, is biologically good.> > > > Â > > > > Â > > > > Â If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > > > > > > > > > >

The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.> > > >  > > > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or else it conflicts with your system badly. > > > >  > > > > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees Krishna during his meditations and have experienced samadhi many times over, who is omnivorous. For any average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I

see no harm in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non- vegetarian combination. > > > > Â > > > > Â > > > > -Regards> > > > Â Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s point of view)> > > > > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > > > > > > > As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.> > > > > > > > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:), Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.> > > > > > > > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these

are mere arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the dead fish thus is so tasty.> > > > > > > > The bottom line is that "They cannot overcome" the cravings for the meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.> > > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was the main consideration, i

can slightly agree but that too during ancient days. not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.> > > > > > > > ***> > > > Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office for 6 months. once i casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute her from my heart.> > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Utpal> > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > > >> > > >

> Dear Utpal,> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s point of view.ÃÆ'‚ You said:> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚§I donÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms).

Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so scanty.ÃÆ'‚Â If you live in the Artic region, you need to have fish oil to survive the cold. TheÃÆ'‚Â point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is how the world has been designed by the grand designer.> > > > > ÃÆ'‚Â > > > > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > > > >

strictly due to any religious or cultural reasonÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¨> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > What you consider selfishÃÆ'‚ maybe a law of nature. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I am not sure if it makes in any difference at all. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > -Regards> > > > >

Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> > > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg> > > > > > > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Namasrte SriRam,> > > > > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.> > > > > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.> > > > > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.> > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411> > > > > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from the above message:> > > > > [> > > > > I couldnÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my> > > > > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow> > > > > ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚§I donÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t wish to

stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed> > > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when> > > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake> > > > > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I wonÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¦t be> > > > > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or> > > > > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in> > > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very> > > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and not> > > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural

reasonÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'‚¨> > > > > ]> > > > > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering creatures.> > > > > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is right and what is not...> > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > Utpal> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@ ...> wrote:> > > > > >> > >

> > > Namaste,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give up.ÃÆ'‚Â >

> > > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on this earth can become vegetarian.> > > > > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.> > > > > > Best Regards,Sriram> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/> > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in.. com/>

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Surenthar,

 

> do you think plants does not have life?

 

I have said that Plant has a life. I only wonder about the alternate food.

 

>people who are eating vegetarian and non-vegetarian people doing >their

dharma,

 

i am sorry. i am not of the level to understand this Deep philosophy.

 

>...Lord Krishna is playing the role, so nothing to worry/confuse >about

ourself.

 

yes. krishna is playing the role so we should eat, drink and make merry!

 

Thank you.

 

warm regards,

 

Utpal

 

 

, surenthar <surentharp wrote:

>

> Hi,

> do you think plants does not have life?

> I thought plants(all vegetation) also needs food and dies, rotten like human

bodies when they are taken/plucked from the soil or water, the only difference

is they don't have voice to shout like other living beings.

> not only blood shed is violence, killing of a life is also violence..

>

> so here my point is people who are eating vegetarian and non-vegetarian

people doing their dharma, from my knowledge there is no need to worry or feel

sorry here.

>

> //a Plant and tree has a life. I agree. Let me ask what to eat then?

>

> if we have to worry about doing our own dharma - then Lord Krishna have to

come to each and everyone to tell upadesa. Our duty is to do our dharma -

do the dharma and clear your karmic debt, moreover we are not we we are

all Krishna, the thing that we should understand is Lord Krishna is playing the

role, so nothing to worry/confuse about ourself.

>  

> regards,

> Surenthar P

>  

>  

>

> ________________________________

>

> vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak

>

> Mon, 14 December, 2009 3:11:31 PM

> Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the

confirmation/Gandhiji's statement)

>

> Dear Rajarshi and everybody else,

>

> >(Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service >of

Dharma.)

>  

> >This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is >Dharma, I

would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on >Dharma, because no one

has

> Let me clear few things explicitly. We are confusing and Mixing different

things here. I am taking 'Ahimsa' in the context of Food habits/preferences and

Hinsa involved in that. Hinsa (Injury/Killing) involved in that is quite

different than say for instance, Injury and killing involved in Military Wars.

> If a Tiger is attacking human societies every now and then and killing people

then it is required to be captured or Killed. That Hinsa is different.

> So now if we talk about Swa-Dharma (As Narasimha explained earlier) or

Collective society Dharma or Rashtra Dharma, The Killing which happens during

Military war can fall in Swa-Dharma of a soldier who kills solders of the other

side. It can be called Dharma of Group of people (Society) to kill a Man eater

Tiger.

> What i am referring to again and again is the Killing involved for the reason

of Food habits and THAT is what which can not fall under Swa-Dharma of people

eating meat. Its possible that the karma of people working in Butchery shops may

not be that heavier then the people who eat meat.

> In my opinion, references to Swadharma is not proper here.

> ***

> It is also correct that Most have cravings for the palate. Vegetarian people

also have cravings for Spicy, Hot, Sweet, etc.. food. The Major difference

however is that Craving for the Veg food is far better in comparison because

craving for a Chicken or Mutton amounts directly to a loss of life.

> Again, I think that it is not required to go in to philosophical discussions

here.

> ***

> I understand that people are born with the Karma baggage of past lives. they

will get the culture, family background, habits etc... due to that. Mental

conditioning will vary. BUT if a person comes to know about certain things then

it is no use blaming or taking shelter under the circumstances. His/her will is

always there. Discrimination is always there. I dare give an advise here. if

somebody wants to change Habits which one feel to be disastrous, one can try as

much possible (Like Rajarshi tried for 108 days) and at the same time surrender

to God. pray every day to almighty to help and over a period of time, help will

come. will surely come.

> I do not boast or take any pride in eating Vegetarian food and my intentions

are never to insult the people who eat meat. My only concern here is *Killing

of Animals, Birds etc...* for NOT justifiable reasons. 

> ***

> a Plant and tree has a life. I agree. Let me ask what to eat then? Because if

you stop eating vegetables and grains then it'll be a vital questions of

Survival.  Somebody suggested that It is not useful to discuss Veg and non veg.

i respectfully disagree with that. Discussions were required and this thread

will prove to be immensely useful.  even a single person changes his/her Mind

and turns away from Nonveg eating.

>  

> Best Regards,

> Utpal 

>

> , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste

> >  

> > My previous mail went off incomplete.

> >  

> > Gandhiji's statement  " The path of Truth is through Ahimsa

(Non-Violence) .... " .  is probably the loose english translation of the

famous saying " Ahimsa Paramo Dharma. "

> >  

> > This reminded me of two things. One, I do not agree with Gandhiji. 

Two, there is another part of this statement " Dharma himsa tathaiva cha " .

> >  

> > Taken together it becomes... " Ahimsa Paramo Dharma, Dharma himsa tathaiva

cha " .

> > (Non-violence is the ultimate dharma. So too is violence in service of

Dharma.)

> >  

> > This I find very acceptable. Now if the question arises what is Dharma, I

would request going back to the mails of Narasmiha on Dharma, because no one has

explained swa-dharma as beautifully as he has done in his mails in this forum.

> >  

> > Interestingly, a thought came to me. The heading of this mail says (Mother

gave the confirmation! ). So true. For Utpal it was one sort of confirmation,

for me another sort. Through the same sentence the Universe can teach different

things to different people.

> >  

> > -Regards

> >  Rajarshi

> >  

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Mon, 14/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:

> >

> >

> > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...

> > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (Mother gave the confirmation)

> >

> > Monday, 14 December, 2009, 10:14 AM

> >

> >

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Namaste All,

> > I again give link to my Initial message which wasn't responded to.

> > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

> > I repost some later part of the message below:

> > But am I wrong in thinking this way? Am I wrong in my efforts to make

> > them understand my view point? Though I never pressurize or irritate

> > anybody on the issue.

> > Some times I feel that if most of the humans on earth eat meat, fish

> > and eggs then is there any fundamental misconception about it? can

> > there be so many people wrong in their food habits. But in any case,

> > for me I¡¦ll stick to veg food simply.....

> > ***

> > I got the Final conclusive Confirmation to my view point yesterday in

quite an interesting way. Yesterday evening i went to a mall along with some

family friends. Occasion being my marriage anniversary.  One senior

friend, whom i respect very much, who is also a vegetarian, suddenly started

arguments with me on the same topic. He was arguing from the Nonveg point

of view. In short, he was saying by giving examples that People who meat are

also very gentle, polite and good natured.  They are not Tamasik and such

arguments.  I again reiterated my view. I told him that i do not say that

the people who eat meat are *Bad* people. I do not also claim that Pure veggies

are all and always *Good* people.  Infact, i have a couple of very good

friends who are meat eater and they are really good human beings.  I only say

that the people who eat meat are not doing the right Karma because the act

results in to cold blooded

> killing/ butchering / massacre

> > of innocent Creatures. I only say that for eating (actually satisfying

cravings of palate), one has no right to harm the other life.

> > We both kept quite for a while and then i suddenly saw a advertisement

poster of Mont blank pen on which Mahatma Gandhi's picture was

shown with one of his thought and signature. I had earlier seen this

poster but never felt like going near and reading it. but yesterday i went near

that to read the thought of Mahatma in his own handwritings and Lo! It was

written:

> > " The path of Truth is through Ahimsa (Non-Violence) .... " . I called my

friend near and showed him that. he also starred for a while to that

thought. The discussion ended.  He got the answer probably and I got my

confirmation!

> > ***

> > I always recite a  prayer at conclusion of my daily Homam (I prefer this

prayer over " Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhabantu...) which goes like this:

> > Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaH, Sarve Santu NiraamayaaHa

> > Sarve Bhadraani Pashyantu, MaaKaschidDukhaBhag bhavet !!!

> > Om Shanti.. Shanti... ShantiHi

> >

> > yours,

> > Utpal

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >

> > , " vedic_pathak " <vedic_pathak@ ...>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Mahatma Gandhi was vegetarian and Sardar Vallabhbhai Zaverbhai Patel in

particular was also vegetarian who was a Terror for Adversaries of India. We

require 'Will Power' much much more than the power of physical muscles and by

the way Veg. food does not make one weak and Tamasik

> > >

> > > rgds

> > > Utpal

> > > , Se Am mahalaxmyey@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > swami vivekanada found indians weak and not able to struggle against

muslims and british

> > > > they were vegeterian and eating frugally

> > > > then indians were weak and full of tamas

> > > > so he induced them to eat meat and get some rajas

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@

> > > >

> > > > Sat, December 12, 2009 12:19:46 AM

> > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s

point of view)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Rajarshi,

> > > > Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel

hearted etc...

> > > > In this message, i am giving only what i feel right as per me and how i

think about the whole issue myself. so pl. take that in consideration.

> > > > But to say that it is immoral or that one does not reach God if one

consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure bunkum.

> > > > In my previous message, i've clarified some points. i put it again

below:

> > > > Please do not consider my point for Veg/Nonveg with perspective of

> > > > Spiritual/Material, Good/Bad, Saatwik/Taamsik etc... My only point in

> > > > Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non

Violence)

> > > > against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures).

> > > > ***

> > > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat totally

vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things like havans, or

else it conflicts with your system badly.

> > > > In my opinion, Saadhana or No Saadhana, if something is not correct will

remain Incorrect. killing for filling stomach is if Not right then for me it'll

remain *Not right in all conditions*. it is a different matter, if in future i

succumb to challanging conditions and start eating meat but even then it'll not

justify and make it proper thing.

> > > > ***

> > > > Dear Rajarshi, Now i hope you don't get offended by my message. i

apologise in advance for my bluntness.

> > > > your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me

impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does

not appeal me. to be very honest.

> > > > In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc..

then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose

to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who

have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong

as per the 'their' thinking.

> > > > To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make

quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already

dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up.

> > > > Poeple born in Those cultures have become Vegetarian becuase they hate

killing invloved. I gave an example of one such person and there are few more i

know. howvever they are very very very rare.

> > > > ***

> > > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people who

provide such arguements, but these arguments are nonsensical and childish.

Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.

> > > > I agree completely. it is childish, Laughable and cruel jokes. Thats how

i also take it when such people talk such nonsense.

> > > > ***

> > > > Lastly, i'll add a philospohical thought. If so much of killing every

hourly basis, mostly for the sole purpose of *Craving* goes on in the world, and

the prime mover is Human society, then how we hope to have a peacefull world

without blood shed and massacare. unfailing law of Karma (Cause & effect) will

find many ways to give it back to (in)Human societies.

> > > > Om Shaanti Shaanti Shaanti:

> > > > Warm Regards,

> > > > Utpal

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ..>

wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Utpal,

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > I hope you or others won't get offended by my mails. Please take them

in the right vein. I am merely discussing. Now some points:

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > But I have often feel that they are themselves are not convinced when

they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly say that i have

no answers for 'life in a Plant'.

> > > > >

> > > > > When I used to eat non-vegetarian food many of my friends who

wereÃÆ'‚ vegetarian people would give me a similar logic, as you

mentioned in your first writing. My point is, as a non-vegetarian I am not

claiming that I have any special sensitivity to plants, over animals. No. All I

am saying is that,ÃÆ'‚ this logic that many vegetarian people provide to

convince average non-veg people to quit eating non-veg, does not hold good.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging

goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the

cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of

so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the

humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes

out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper

English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the

dead fish thus is so tasty.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > I understand and appreciate you feelings, but I personally do not

share them. Call me cruel hearted.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > When the question of sensitivity comes in, there is no universal

standard for such. It is moslty a case of conditioning. What one feels disgusted

or pained about may not affect another. Same rule cannot be used to judge

everyone.ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > Some of my non-vegetarian friends were watching discovery channel

where they showed that people in some parts of the world eat insects. My friends

seemed disgusted. I asked them, " Why? " . If you can eat a chicken or a fish, what

is wrongÃÆ'‚ if someone eats an insect. Just because one is born in a

certain area in a certain culture in a certain set of value, one gets the

believe that what one is not accustomed to must be incorrect. I told them if in

a future life time they were to be born in that place, they would gladly keep

eating insects without the slightest doubt in their mind. We humans are

incorrigible product of our own conditions which in my opinion is all right. BUT

the problem happens when we think our conditions are the only possible

conditioning in the world, and therefore we wonder why don't others share

similar ideas. That is incorrect. Nature has created the world diverse, and so

it is. Everything is desh-kaal-patra. A person

> who is

> > a

> > > > > vegetarian in this life, if he gets born in a place/culture/ family in

a later lifetime whichÃÆ'‚ eats non-vegetarian food, he would not even

bat an eye lid while eating the same. I knowÃÆ'‚ people who faint at the

sight of blood, but there are doctors who do multiple operations daily. So my

point is, personal sensitivity can be a very good reason for an individual, but

itÃÆ'‚ cannot beÃÆ'‚ a universal logic applicable to all.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > A far better angle of tackling this is the idea of karma. Even then,

if someone can make sure he is not directly killing an animal, not selecting a

live animal to be killed, but rather buys dead meat/fish/egg, the karma

generated can be handled easily. Further, if someone (a

non-vegetarian)ÃÆ'‚ does not want to deal in the raw flesh, he can buy

some cooked non-vegetarian food. The amount of karma that you would get for it

is quite acceptble IMO. It can be easily handled.ÃÆ'‚ It is similar to

the one you would get for buying some simple daal which has come to the market

through the hands of a middle man who has cheated the farmer, or God knows what

else. There is karmic repurcussions in all food we eat in this age. It is

unavoidable. There are some eggs - broiler eggs - which never hatch into eggs.

They are designed to be eaten because they never grow into an animal. Alsmot

like dead from birth. What karma does one get for consuming

> that? God

> > knows.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > An average non-vegetarian, at least in India, to be precise is

actually an omnivorous. His staple diet consists of 80 percent vegetables/pulses

etc and 20 percent non-veg. From a scientific point of view, this is a good

combination. People who feed on more than 60 percent non-veg food in their

staple diet, are prone to serious heath issues at a younger age. But this 80-20

veg/non-veg, is biologically good.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:),

Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody

will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to

defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The above arguments are incorrect. I know some non-vegetarian people

who provide such arguements,ÃÆ'‚ but these argumentsÃÆ'‚ are

nonsensical and childish. Almost Zakir Naik style of arguments.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > Anyway, my point is, I understand that it is good to eat

totallyÃÆ'‚ vegetarian food when you engage in sadhana, specially things

like havans,ÃÆ'‚ or else it conflicts with your system badly.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > But to say that it isÃÆ'‚ immoral or that one does not reach

God if one consumes non-vegetarian food, is illogical, incorrect and pure

bunkum.I know a devotee of Krishna - not just a devotee but one who sees

KrishnaÃÆ'‚ during hisÃÆ'‚ meditations and have experienced

samadhi many times over, who isÃÆ'‚ omnivorous.ÃÆ'‚ For any

average person, not engaging himself/herself in specific sadhanas, I see no harm

in having an omnivorous diet with a 80/20 vegetarian/non- vegetarian

combination.

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > -Regards

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ Rajarshi

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > > >

> > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ... wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > vedic_pathak vedic_pathak@ ...

> > > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg (From a non-vegetarian' s

point of view)

> > > > >

> > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 10:29 PM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ÃÆ'‚

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Rajarshi,

> > > > >

> > > > > As you have said, Most of these are sure shot arguments from the

people who eat Meat/fish. But I have often feel that they are themselves are not

convinced when they argue. they are 'hollow' arguments. However , I'll honestly

say that i have no answers for 'life in a Plant'.

> > > > >

> > > > > The people who argue such as': Most eat meat in the world, Egg is

vegetarian, Plant also has life, One will not get required nourishments only

with vegetarian food, If we don't eat fish then sea will be full of fishes:),

Earth will be full of chickens:0, Veg food will become unaffordable if everybody

will become vegetarian :Etc...are more often than not, put up such arguments to

defend however as i said earlier they are themselves not convinced.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vegeterian people have their own arguments but all these are mere

arguments. I personally can not look at butchery shops where one finds hanging

goats. its pathetic site. People in their excitements stand in queue to see the

cutting of throat of a chicken and then take away that as parcel. The flash of

so cruelly butchered Chicken or a Goat or a cow or pig, is so tasty for the

humans that they just overlook the voice of their inner self. a fish which comes

out of water is such a disturbing site. Panting for water (i don't have proper

English word to describe the condition of a fish out of water). and then the

dead fish thus is so tasty.

> > > > >

> > > > > The bottom line is that " They cannot overcome " the cravings for the

meat, fish and eggs. This is a naked reality.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Rajarshi, However i try, i am not convinced with arguments in

favour of Nonveg food. Only at the cold places and deserts where survival was

the main consideration, i can slightly agree but that too during ancient days.

not now...Now everywhere Veg food is easily available.

> > > > >

> > > > > ***

> > > > > Few months back, a young girl from Germany came to work in my office

for 6 months. once i casually asked her as to what she eats during lunch. what

she said was not at all expected. she said that she is pure vegetarian and eats

only Veg food since 3 years now and wants to continue that way whole life. As

expected, i was very happy and i further asked the reason. The answer she gave

so much happiness. She said that She does not want to kill to eat. Vow! I salute

her from my heart.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best Regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Utpal

> > > > >

> > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@

....> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Utpal,

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > I slightly disagree with your below mail. Without offence, let me

state a few counter point for the sake of a discussion from a non-vegetarian' s

point of view.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ You said:

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > >

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Â\

§I

donÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed

> > > > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> > > > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food.

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > Even plants are living. The air we breath is living (organisms).

Death is part and parcel of natural law. One cannot avoid it however much one

tries. The Abrahamic religions are heavy on non-veg food. The areas where they

grew, arid, desert land, you need to have (at least during those days) animal

flesh to survive specially considreing irrigation options were so

scanty.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ If you live in the Artic region, you

need to have fish oil to survive the cold. TheÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

point is, death is a part of life. One does not survive without death. That is

how the world has been designed by the grand designer.

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> > > > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> > > > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and

not

> > > > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural

reasonÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'â€Å\

¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¨

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > What harm have plants done? Why not the same kind of feeling when it

comes to plant life? They too are living beings, just like anything else!

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > What you consider selfishÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ maybe a

law of nature.

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > Please understand I am not advocating non-vegetarianism. But if

someone is to do serious sadhana, no doubt vegetarian food is best. Otherwise, I

am not sure if it makes in any difference at all.

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > -Regards

> > > > > > Rajarshi

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > vedic_pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>

> > > > > > Re: Veg Vs. Non-Veg

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Friday, 11 December, 2009, 7:36 PM

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namasrte SriRam,

> > > > > > Long back, i had posted the below message on this list.

> > > > > > I've put my argument in the message in which i firmly belive.

> > > > > > Its possible this may change the mind of your friend.

> > > > > > http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom/message/ 411

> > > > > > The exact Argument is given again as under which is the extract from

the above message:

> > > > > > [

> > > > > > I

couldnÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'â€Å\

¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦t hold back myself and honestly explained my

> > > > > > conclusive view point on the whole subject as follow

> > > > > >

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Â\

§I

donÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚¦t wish to stuff my stomach with the body parts of killed

> > > > > > creature. Would never think of troubling any leaving creature when

> > > > > > mother-nature has provided enough alternate food. Just for the sake

> > > > > > of filling my stomach or satisfying cravings of my tongue, I

wonÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚¦t be

> > > > > > responsible for killing innocent birds, animals, fishes directly or

> > > > > > indirectly. What right I have, to snatch away even a single life in

> > > > > > the universe for my selfish reasons. I consider that as very very

> > > > > > cruel and that is the personal thinking why I am a vegetarian and

not

> > > > > > strictly due to any religious or cultural

reasonÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'â€Å\

¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¨

> > > > > > ]

> > > > > > Even if Shri Krishna has not mentioned a direct wording of

Non-vegetarian food in Geeta, it is not right to take that excuse for slottering

creatures.

> > > > > > I ask any body to think for him/her self in the light of what is

right and what is not...

> > > > > > Best Regards,

> > > > > > Utpal

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , Astro Seeker <astro.seeker@

....> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am a firm believer of Veg being satwik food and consider non-veg

as hurdle to spiritual growth. But, a friend of mine who otherwise is trying to

make some spiritual progress, is a non-vegetatian. In our arguments over non-veg

food, he has put a counter argument. He says that if I can find him a single

shloka on this in Bhagwat Geeta, he would give

up.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚

> > > > > > > So, if anybody on this group can help me find the quote, it would

be great. He considers Geeta as the absolute reference and believes if Lord

Krishna has not spoken about it in Geeta, it is actually not worth discussing

whether or not you take non-veg. If anyone finds it, le me know so that 1 guy on

this earth can become vegetarian.

> > > > > > > He also quotes Sai Baba, Jesus and Mohammed Prophet adhering to

non-veg. If any of you know the counter argument, please help.

> > > > > > > Best Regards,Sriram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your

Homepage. http://in.. com/

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in.. com/

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in.. com/

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in.. com/

> >

>

>

>

>

> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage.

http://in./

>