Guest guest Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Namaste, I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points. * * * Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as " I " . The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of " I " and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria. As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly. * * * You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat. Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. * * * It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices). If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference. * * * Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored. Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating. Best regards, Narasimha - Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings, " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org Spirituality: Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 dear shri narasimha, Wonderful explanation. These in depth explanations are sufficient for the meat eaters to think whether it is required to kill animals just to fulfill the taste of our palate. After all the taste buds are just located only on a few sqaure inch area on our toungue. If the cravings of the taste buds can be controlled by our mind then we will not involve ourselves in such cruel karmic deeds. thanks, regards, k.gopu --- On Sun, 12/13/09, pvr108 <pvr108 wrote: pvr108 <pvr108 On the Vegetarianism Thread Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 4:22 AM Namaste,I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points.* * *Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as "I".The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of "I" and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria.As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly.* * *You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat.Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress.* * *It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices).If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference.* * *Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored.Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,"Do It Yourself" ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgFilms that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFil ms.org Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomJyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 SARVAM GYANANANDAMAYAMAUM GURUBHYO NAMAHDear Utpal & others,Namaste. The physical structure of human beings, animals, birds and that of plants differ. The tools provided for the intake of food are different. When attempts are being made to consume food beyond the scope of tools provided(teeth structure for eg.,) for the present incarnation it only means the bio-memories are strong. Jiva could have picked up any body at random in an unconscious state in the past. The need of the hour is to have a cognitive shift from unconscious state of functioning to conscious state of functioning. There is no need to talk for vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism. Any memories be it pleasant or unpleasant are the previous samskaras/engrams, which put forth hurdles, need to be tackled through utter/complete & conscious submission to the cosmic intelligence known as the Almighty.One need to be absolutely conscious of the food he/she wants to consume. Let the food chosen be acceptable to the being as an initial step. With this awareness the food chosen needs to be offered to the Almighty with utmost reverence and gratitude. This offered food to the Lord which is purified by His Dhristi is now Prasada. The word Prasada needs to be understood by the being consciously. It cannot be an intellectual/emotional understanding. A prasada is neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian.Respects & Regards.Astrologically & spiritually yours,p.s.ramanarayanan.--- On Sun, 13/12/09, pvr108 <pvr108 wrote:pvr108 <pvr108 On the Vegetarianism Thread Date: Sunday, 13 December, 2009, 4:22 AM Namaste, I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points. * * * Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as "I". The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of "I" and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria. As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly. * * * You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat. Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. * * * It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices). If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference. * * * Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored. Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating. Best regards, Narasimha ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings, "Do It Yourself" ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFil ms.org Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Namaste Narasimha/Utpal and others, Just a few point I would like to mention after going through most of the posts in this thread. I completely agree to Narasimha's explanation of the degree of attachment in plants vs animals. Also I agree to the point that a meat eater, if he were to eat veg food for some months while reading the scriptures would feel spiritually benefited. One year back I had tried it for 108 days and I definitely felt some positive effects like a sense of purity of the mind. Narasimha said: Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. With due respect to everyone, I am not convinced of the above lines though I agree that for a meat eater, turning vegetarian is spiritually beneficial. I have a different explanation. A meat eater is basically addicted to the taste of meat. When he forgoes the same, it requires a degree of will-power and a conscious sense of direction in the mind. Like overcoming any addiction with a clear sense of purpose that I am doing it to help me spiritually benefit. This in turn, when successfully done, creates a sense of purity in the mind. The reason for the purity is not so much about eating veg food, but more due to the mental force created by conscious abstinence from non veg food. Similarly, a regular vegeterian, if he or she were to shift to a diet of ONLY milk and fruits for some months - which is not his staple diet - would feel a similar effect. As I see it, generation of will power is teh first conscinous effect of the beauty of sadhana. This sense of mental purity maybe - I am not sure - related to the generation of more bhutaagni. That which jolts you out of your normal regularized habits will create a force in the mind which is beneficial. Speaking of ego, for an average man not engaging in any specific spiritual pursuit (sadhana), I have really not encountered any difference between people who are strict vegeterians from birth or people who have an omnivorous diet. That is why I am not at all convinced that an omnivorous diet for an normal human being blocks or aids him in any way any more than a vegeterian diet does. BUT abstinence in any form and any degree, is a GREAT tool for spiritual benefit. I hope I expressed my view point clearly. Dear Utpal, Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc... Thanks! Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures). I get what you mean thought I do see dharma/adharma that way. your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest. In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking. To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up. I guess I will just have to agree to disagree with you. We look at things differently:) One more point I would like to question. Some of the other mails mentioned that people (non-vegeterians) should get out of the 'addiction' of taste for non-veg. While I agree that non-veg food is addictive to one who eats it, I would like to ask, is not vegeterian food addictive to one who is a thorough bred vegetarian? Or are we implying that those who eat veg food - vegeterains by birth - are not 'addicted' to food at all, and do not enjoy the food they eat? Ordinary we are all addicted to food, veg or non-veg, and eat for our palates as much as for our stomachs, or so I thought. -Regards Rajarshi There is no intoxication greater than the sweet name of God - Vimalananda.--- On Sun, 13/12/09, pvr108 <pvr108 wrote: pvr108 <pvr108 On the Vegetarianism Thread Date: Sunday, 13 December, 2009, 4:22 AM Namaste,I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points.* * *Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as "I".The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of "I" and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria.As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly.* * *You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat.Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress.* * *It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices).If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference.* * *Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored.Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,"Do It Yourself" ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgFilms that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFil ms.org Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomJyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Namaste rajarshi and others, I too agree with the point that every human being(non-veg and veg) is addicted to food and we can feel the positive difference experienced by non-vegetarians when they turn into vegetarian. But I can't agree with the point say dharma as non-violence and adharma as violence. These depends upon their karmic debts and too all plants and animals are *living beings*. To my belief there is no point in discussing about vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism. To my knowledge (this is my personal thinking) adharma is caused while a person/living-being kills(/hurts) another living-being due to his pride/ego(/without any reason).here living beings refer plants and animals -plants too die when they are plucked from soil. 1.So if a person plucks the plant/flower for presenting to God, the person is done his dharma as presenting the flower to god and meanwhile the flower is done his dharma of reaching god - so that person indirectly helping the flower to reach god. 2.If a person plucks the same flower for to use for his regular purpose, then too the person doing his dharma so do the flower, the flower done its dharma of reaching its goal of that person needs. 3.If the same person plucks the same flower and throws it away, here the flower hasn't done it's dharma but the person has done his *dharma of his sin* due to his karmic debt. This example may be equated for all living beings(including animals, plants and humans) and this may apply to de-forestation, hunting animals without any reason, etc., so I think there is no point in discussing about vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism, and I think it's a " law of the nature " regards, Surenthar P. p.s: I'm not well versed in veda, this message is the instance of my thought on seeing this thread. , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste Narasimha/Utpal and others, >  > Just a few point I would like to mention after going through most of the posts in this thread. >  > I completely agree to Narasimha's explanation of the degree of attachment in plants vs animals. Also I agree to the point that a meat eater, if he were to eat veg food for some months while reading the scriptures would feel spiritually benefited. One year back I had tried it for 108 days and I definitely felt some positive effects like a sense of purity of the mind. >  > Narasimha said: >  > Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. >  > With due respect to everyone, I am not convinced of the above lines though I agree that for a meat eater, turning vegetarian is spiritually beneficial. I have a different explanation. A meat eater is basically addicted to the taste of meat. When he forgoes the same, it requires a degree of will-power and a conscious sense of direction in the mind. Like overcoming any addiction with a clear sense of purpose that I am doing it to help me spiritually benefit. This in turn, when successfully done, creates a sense of purity in the mind. The reason for the purity is not so much about eating veg food, but more due to the mental force created by conscious abstinence from non veg food. >  > Similarly, a regular vegeterian, if he or she were to shift to a diet of ONLY milk and fruits for some months - which is not his staple diet - would feel a similar effect. As I see it, generation of will power is teh first conscinous effect of the beauty of sadhana. This sense of mental purity maybe - I am not sure - related to the generation of more bhutaagni. That which jolts you out of your normal regularized habits will create a force in the mind which is beneficial. >  > Speaking of ego, for an average man not engaging in any specific spiritual pursuit (sadhana), I have really not encountered any difference between people who are strict vegeterians from birth or people who have an omnivorous diet. That is why I am not at all convinced that an omnivorous diet for an normal human being blocks or aids him in any way any more than a vegeterian diet does.  BUT abstinence in any form and any degree, is a GREAT tool for spiritual benefit. >  > I hope I expressed my view point clearly. >  > Dear Utpal, >  > Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc... >  > Thanks! >  > Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence) > against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures). >  > I get what you mean thought I do see dharma/adharma that way. >  > your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest. >  > In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking. >  > To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up. >  > I guess I will just have to agree to disagree with you. We look at things differently:) >  >  >  >  > One more point I would like to question. Some of the other mails mentioned that people (non-vegeterians) should get out of the 'addiction' of taste for non-veg. While I agree that non-veg food is addictive to one who eats it, I would like to ask, is not vegeterian food addictive to one who is a thorough bred vegetarian? Or are we implying that those who eat veg food - vegeterains by birth - are not 'addicted' to food at all, and do not enjoy the food they eat? >  > Ordinary we are all addicted to food, veg or non-veg, and eat for our palates as much as for our stomachs, or so I thought. >  > -Regards >  Rajarshi >  >  > There is no intoxication greater than the sweet name of God - Vimalananda. > > --- On Sun, 13/12/09, pvr108 pvr108 wrote: > > > pvr108 pvr108 > On the Vegetarianism Thread > > Sunday, 13 December, 2009, 4:22 AM > > >  > > > > Namaste, > > I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points. > > * * * > > Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as " I " . > > The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of " I " and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria. > > As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly. > > * * * > > You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat. > > Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. > > * * * > > It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices). > > If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference. > > * * * > > Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored. > > Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings, > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana: > http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFil ms.org > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Namaste Ramanarayanan Sir, How are you?. long time no hear:) >The need of the hour is to have a cognitive shift from unconscious >state of functioning to conscious state of functioning This idea suggested by you essentialy means that One needs to resort to reasoning, logic rather than working on impulse or guided by emotions. thats how i understood it. >Jiva could have picked up any body at random in an unconscious >state in the past. It means, past Sanskaar of some life or lives are working and dominating heavily the behaviours and habits of current state. If i understand correctly, your message in nutshell states that the current habits and behaviours are product of some past samskaaras and it requires strong rational, logical, reasoning faculty which surpasses the Emotional, impulsive force of past samskaaras. You also suggest that to overcome the force of Past impressions, It requires to surrender to the Almighty. It is required to consciously examine our habits and tendencies and after enough reasoning and discrimination, if we found that it needs to be overcome, then it is best to surrender and also try as much possible to generate counter force. I think that is what i suggested in one of the message. that is how any tendencies can be overcome. only one point i need to mention that i see the need of talking about vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism because that may serve as a vital food for thought in somebody...somewhere. I think, i conveyed whatever i needed to on this thread of Veg-nonveg. in my many messages, i've conveyed most of the things which was accumulating from long years. i've become empty now!!! Respectful regards, Utpal , rama narayanan <sree88ganesha wrote: > > SARVAM GYANANANDAMAYAMAUM GURUBHYO NAMAH > Dear Utpal & others, > Namaste. The physical structure of human beings, animals, birds and that of plants differ. The tools provided for the intake of food are different. When attempts are being made to consume food beyond the scope of tools provided(teeth structure for eg.,) for the present incarnation it only means the bio-memories are strong. Jiva could have picked up any body at random in an unconscious state in the past. The need of the hour is to have a cognitive shift from unconscious state of functioning to conscious state of functioning. There is no need to talk for vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism. Any memories be it pleasant or unpleasant are the previous samskaras/engrams, which put forth hurdles, need to be tackled through utter/complete & conscious submission to the cosmic intelligence known as the Almighty. > One need to be absolutely conscious of the food he/she wants to consume.  Let the food chosen be acceptable to the being as an initial step.  With this awareness the food chosen needs to be offered to the Almighty with utmost reverence and gratitude.  This offered food to the Lord which is purified by His Dhristi is now Prasada.  The word Prasada needs to be understood by the being consciously. It cannot be an intellectual/emotional understanding. A prasada is neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian. > Respects & Regards. > Astrologically & spiritually yours,p.s.ramanarayanan. > > --- On Sun, 13/12/09, pvr108 <pvr108 wrote: > > pvr108 <pvr108 > On the Vegetarianism Thread > > Sunday, 13 December, 2009, 4:22 AM > > > > > > > > > >  > > > Namaste, > > > > I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points. > > > > * * * > > > > Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as " I " . > > > > The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of " I " and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria. > > > > As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly. > > > > * * * > > > > You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat. > > > > Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. > > > > * * * > > > > It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices). > > > > If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference. > > > > * * * > > > > Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored. > > > > Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings, > > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana: > > http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFil ms.org > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Namaste Rajarshi, When a being is not established in Brahman, but established in duality, such a being has notions of "I" and "others". All interactions between "I" and "others" impact and refine the conditioning further. The food one takes in, the literature one reads, the words one hears, the pictures one sees - all these things add on to one's conditioning and influence one to varying degrees. You said "I completely agree to Narasimha's explanation of the degree of attachment in plants vs animals". Don't you think the gunas of a mind that identified with a body for a long time will be embedded in the body to some extent? Don't you think the gunas embedded in the food you eat will affect you? In other words, don't you think that eating the body of an animal that has a strong attachment to body, as opposed to a plant that does not have the same level of attachment to body as you agreed, will increase the quality of body attachment in you? Of course, this may not be the only factor causing body attachment in you, but this will increase it a little and reinforce it. * * * Why was fasting or eating limited amount of food recommended for spiritual sadhakas? It is because the internal fire is not burdened with the task of digesting huge amounts of food. If the internal fire is used up for digestion of physical food, it limits the amount of fire that can be used for other purposes (e.g. digestion of mental food and spiritual food). One's agni (internal fire) is used for many purposes. If you reduce its use for one purpose, it can fulfill another purpose better. Meat is far more complicated to digest than, let us say, milk and dal-rice. Using too much fire as jatharaagni to digest meat will limit how well one can digest the spiritual experiences. Eating meat will most definitely have an adverse effect on the speed of one's spiritual progress. Why is one's alertness adversely affected a little immediately after a large meal? It is because most of the internal fire is diverted to the stomach for digesting the food. Limited fire is available for mental digestion in such cases. After taking the physical and mental needs into account, the amount of internal fire left from *spiritual* transformation is usually so little in people that one needs to conserve fire from other activities to increase the fire available for spiritual transformation. Eating simple food is a great idea. * * * Regarding your example of an omnivorous person in another mail, who goes to samadhi and has visions of Krishna and yet eats meat, I have one thing to say. Legendary cricketer Sachin Tendulkar scored a sublime century with a terrible backache. If you hypothesize that a broken back is not problem in batting, you are wrong. People with terrible back aches hardly score centuries. Tendulkar was an exception rather than the rule. There may be yogis who can remain fully saattwik and focus their mind on god always, even when eating meat or drinking wine or having sex. But, one cannot emulate them easily. While developing focus on god, it is good to give up some things. It is not without reason that tradition recommends vegetarianism to spiritual seekers. In fact, not only eat vegetarian food, but eat vegetarian food that is simple, easy to digest and saattwik, in order to maximize your spiritual progress. It is not a guarantee of any kind, but it maximizes your achievement within the limits imposed by your pre-existing conditioning. Best regards,Narasimha PS: Swami Satyananda, I got your voice mail. I will try to type Ayushya Sooktam for your Ayushya homam as soon as I get a chance. I have been very busy. When I had a little free time, I did not happen to have the book with me. - Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,"Do It Yourself" ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org Spirituality: Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings- --- On Sun, 12/13/09, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14Re: On the Vegetarianism Thread Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 1:11 PM Namaste Narasimha/Utpal and others, Just a few point I would like to mention after going through most of the posts in this thread. I completely agree to Narasimha's explanation of the degree of attachment in plants vs animals. Also I agree to the point that a meat eater, if he were to eat veg food for some months while reading the scriptures would feel spiritually benefited. One year back I had tried it for 108 days and I definitely felt some positive effects like a sense of purity of the mind. Narasimha said: Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress. With due respect to everyone, I am not convinced of the above lines though I agree that for a meat eater, turning vegetarian is spiritually beneficial. I have a different explanation. A meat eater is basically addicted to the taste of meat. When he forgoes the same, it requires a degree of will-power and a conscious sense of direction in the mind. Like overcoming any addiction with a clear sense of purpose that I am doing it to help me spiritually benefit. This in turn, when successfully done, creates a sense of purity in the mind. The reason for the purity is not so much about eating veg food, but more due to the mental force created by conscious abstinence from non veg food. Similarly, a regular vegeterian, if he or she were to shift to a diet of ONLY milk and fruits for some months - which is not his staple diet - would feel a similar effect. As I see it, generation of will power is teh first conscinous effect of the beauty of sadhana. This sense of mental purity maybe - I am not sure - related to the generation of more bhutaagni. That which jolts you out of your normal regularized habits will create a force in the mind which is beneficial. Speaking of ego, for an average man not engaging in any specific spiritual pursuit (sadhana), I have really not encountered any difference between people who are strict vegeterians from birth or people who have an omnivorous diet. That is why I am not at all convinced that an omnivorous diet for an normal human being blocks or aids him in any way any more than a vegeterian diet does. BUT abstinence in any form and any degree, is a GREAT tool for spiritual benefit. I hope I expressed my view point clearly. Dear Utpal, Do not think that I'll be offended or misunderstand you to be a cruel hearted etc... Thanks! Vegterianism is related to Compession against cruelty. Dharma (Non Violence)against Adharama (Killing Innocent creatures). I get what you mean thought I do see dharma/adharma that way. your second Para and some writings in your earlier message gives me impression that you are heavily philosophising. Karama, Desh/kaal etc... does not appeal me. to be very honest. In my opinon, if one can justify eating popular meat of chicken, etc.. then anything under the Sun is eatable. with that logic, those people who choose to eat Crab, Snakes, insects, cocroaches are perfectly alright. even people who have started eating human flesh are also acceptable and not doing anything wrong as per the 'their' thinking. To talk about Karma, Conditioning, Culture etc..., and try to make quality judgements by the logic of 'Direct killing' and 'eating meat of already dead' does not go well with me. it is just a philosophy to cover up. I guess I will just have to agree to disagree with you. We look at things differently: ) One more point I would like to question. Some of the other mails mentioned that people (non-vegeterians) should get out of the 'addiction' of taste for non-veg. While I agree that non-veg food is addictive to one who eats it, I would like to ask, is not vegeterian food addictive to one who is a thorough bred vegetarian? Or are we implying that those who eat veg food - vegeterains by birth - are not 'addicted' to food at all, and do not enjoy the food they eat? Ordinary we are all addicted to food, veg or non-veg, and eat for our palates as much as for our stomachs, or so I thought. -Regards Rajarshi There is no intoxication greater than the sweet name of God - Vimalananda.--- On Sun, 13/12/09, pvr108 <pvr108 > wrote: pvr108 <pvr108 > On the Vegetarianism ThreadSunday, 13 December, 2009, 4:22 AM Namaste,I have been extremely busy at work for a while now and will continue to be, working long hours everyday. I just saw a few mails from the vegetarianism thread. Just a few quick points.* * *Self-identification of human beings and animals with body and body parts is much much stronger and denser than that of plants and trees. Self-identification of plants and trees is very subtle. When a leaf or flower or fruit is plucked or cut off from a plant or tree, the emotion experienced by it is very subtle. On the other hand, if a body part is cut off in an animal or a human being, the emotion experienced is much stronger. Even after death, an animal may identify with the body and think of it as "I".The kaarmik debt formed by eating the flesh of an animal, which the animal's mind considers as a part of "I" and is highly attached to, is much bigger than the kaarmik debt formed by eating leaves, vegetables or fruits of a plant or a tree or killing bacteria.As long as we live in a physical body, creation of new kaarmik debts is inevitable. But we strive to minimize the debts we create newly.* * *You are what you eat. Our body and various chemicals and hormones in it are formed based on what we eat.Meat is highly taamasik. Eating meat increases tamas in one. It increases ego and identification with body and makes spiritual progress more difficult. After all, if one is eating flesh of an animal that was highly attached to its body, the quality of body attachment will become denser in one. This is not conducive to spiritual progress.* * *It is possible that a spiritual giant from past ate meat and yet remained fully saattwik. However, it is not easy to emulate such a person. One wanting to overcome identification with the body and make spiritual progress, is better off eating saattwik food (simple vegetables, fruits, greens, grains etc with mild spices).If a meat-eating person stops eating meat and eats cooked vegetables, greens and lentils/dals (for protein) for several months, while trying to read spiritual literature and trying to make spiritual progress, one will see that it makes a big difference.* * *Someone mentioned that Vyasa liked fish, Radha cooked deer for Krishna etc. In matters like this, there is a lot of misguided propaganda in modern India. Assertions not backed by specific quotes from classics or scriptures that can be verified by scholars are best ignored.Swami Vivekananda and Aurobindo may have given a clarion call to Indians to be more pro-active and energetic. But that does not require eating meat. It is wrong to attribute to them support of meat eating.Best regards,Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.